Of the law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.
These are our stories, done.
Done, Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up an SVU podcast.
As always, I'm Kara Clank what If You Changed?
And I am sometimes Lisa Trigger, and we're talking SVU the true crime the episode is based on. And then we talk to an incredible guest, and I think you guys are gonna lose your fucking.
Cool for today's guest.
A dramatic episode, a dramatic moment in history and time.
And honestly, we're gonna have a dramatic intro right now, because you know, listen, we're in a bit of a time machine. I know everyone at by the time this episode comes out, we will have been raging about this for a couple of weeks. But as we're recording, it has just broken that the Supreme Court is likely going to overturn Roe versus Wade, And I just feel like I've been walking around like numb the last few days, Like I like, I yelled at my husband and was
like why don't you ever say anything about it? And he was like okay, and he liked did some tweets, and I was like, you know, I it's like Lisa has pointed this out before too, yet like you don't hear enough men speaking up about this, Like I want to hear.
Everybody talking about this more.
And it's like we were fully gas lit since twenty sixteen.
Oh, row is law, row is Law.
We're gonna be fine, and now here we are and it's sad, but I think we can also work to affect change and help people. So we actually have been in touch with Planned Parenthood of California, and look, California is a place where we're never probably going to lose the right to abortion. We are very lucky that Lisa and I both live here, and you know, our governor is very is very invested in keeping abortion like a codified law in this state.
So we are probably good.
But Plan parent of California is actually doing a lot to help these other states. So we'll have a link in our show notes on how to donate to them and on our Instagram stories and stuff like that. And also they are running this campaign called say Abortion, and it's just encouraging people to tell their stories about their abortion,
to talk about abortion. Let's get abortion out from the whispers, like it's not anything shameful to talk about, and let's pressure lawmakers to go along with what seventy five to eighty percent of this country wants, which is reproductive access for everyone and reproductive freedom. So go to say abortion california dot com, even if you don't live in California. They have lists of all these different rallies and stuff that are happening.
In all different states.
Like I just went on really quick and I saw Wichita, Cleveland, like everywhere, and so it's a great right now, it feels like, Okay, what are we doing, where are we marching? Where are we giving money? And I think they have kind of a good concentrated place where you can see what's going on in your area. You can donate to them, and they're they're helping. This is not going towards I believe,
abortion access in California. This is going towards like you know, helping abortion funds in other states and stuff like that. And also we're going to be working on disseminating abortion funds on our Instagram as well.
Yeah, and we are doing a abortion deep dive episode in a few weeks, so right now we're touching on it. It's it sucks. I don't even the numb is a good thing. Like I feel not surprised, not shocked, not anything.
It's like we all fucking knew this forever.
Like the moment Kevin All got put into the court, Clinton tweeted like Roe v.
Wade is done, guys, And that was in twenty eighteen.
And so often women are meant to like, oh, you're emotional, you'r irrational, you're over blahlah blah, you're you're over exaggerating,
and it's like, no, what we feel is real. And even now, I did the dumb thing of going on Twitter and looking at Matt Gates posted some dumb bullshit and I was just looking at the comments and it's just people saying the dumbest fucking shit, and someone's like, ugh, women always acting so emotional, and it's like, yeah, I don't know why that's bad, Like everything that is feminine is deemed as bad, Like, yeah, maybe if men were more in touch with their emotions, there wouldn't be school
shooters and genocide and war. I don't know, like, yeah, maybe you got like what makes you think you guys have killed it at life?
When the world sucks, you.
Know what I mean, even for you guys, Like yeah, I it's it's really appalling, and it's just horrific thinking of all the people that are gonna feel desperate and in danger and they're well and I.
Think that's your planned parenthood of California is like is like trying to help, you know, getting people to our state and helping people with get access in our state if they can't get it in their own And I you know, you just reminded me when you talked about this Matt Gates thing.
Now I can't find it, of course.
But well it's about just like oh, you're over educated and you have a cat, and it's like the ideas of who gets abortions. You know, these guys they're just like they don't care because it's not about that, you know, it's like whatever you choose to fuck, And it's like, well that's there. Clearly that's your dumb and you're missing a very important element of all of this, which is assaults and incest. But also just like the idea of who gets abortions when it's truly like mothers who already
have four kids. It's it's business ladies, it's educated people, it's twelve year olds. There was like a provider who posted all the different patients she saw in a year and a half. And the other delusional thing I saw online was some dumb anti abortion bitch being like, oh, you know, look at all them like protesting and being violent,
and look at us. We we've been saving lives slowly on a grassroots level, getting together and like, and then all these women this woman posted actually when I worked and at a Planned Parenthood and I'd open the mail in an air tight room so if there was anthrax, I'd be the only one to die. And then it just started as a whole trend of people being like, yep, when I and I mean abortion doctors have been fully murdered.
Yeah, these people are harassing.
And then there was one woman who she said she was really pregnant and going to Planned Parenthood for services outside of abortion, and people were like trying to convince oh, no, she worked there. People were like the protesters were yelling at her like, don't do it, don't do it. She goes, I work here, And then they started throwing rocks at her and she was seven months pregnant. Like, these people are delusional at who they are, what they think they
are doing. They think they're these like calm saviors of babies who are revolutionizing shit, and they they are delusional. These are QAnon fucks, like these are religious monsters and they're not people who listen to others, are in tune with others, or care actually for people like all these people, I doubt they donate. I doubt they do what care does, and you know, are casas and helping people in foster care, like they're not doing shit.
Yeah, I mean I also, like I was just trying to find it, but I like saw this thing in someone's feed too about that. Somebody wrote this thing that was like, if you want to give your organs after you die, you need to fill out consent. So essentially, this law gives women less rights than a corpse because it is saying you must carry this baby, like you
do not get this choice here. I think Analie's found it. Yeah, no one has the right to use your body to save another's life without your consent, Like you're just you're not allowed to just say, hey, I need your blood.
Hey, I need your organs, like you know, you just can't.
It's just not well. And there's no rea or talking to these people because if they were rational humans that listened and were in reality, they would understand the complexities of what abortion is and what I mean.
There's people who don't.
We don't talk about you mentioned like you know, the say abortion campaign, But I was recently talking with someone that like can't have children and had miscarriages and like didn't know that it took forever to have kids. Like people don't know about periods. I was doing some period jokes in Pittsburgh and some guy yelled out like I don't want to hear about that, and you know, I did a fun joke like that he should go down on people with periods for iron, and I got on
a break like I'm fucking good. But it was this thing of like he didn't want to hear it. But I talk about come for like thirty minutes. So it's like you were totally fine hearing me talk about jizz forever and then one mention of period made you yell out, like it's it's all about femininity. It's like people don't like the comments sometimes online about periods where it's like it's every twenty eight days and it's like, actually it's
irregular or it's heavy or it's not. Or people miscarry all the time and abortion is regular and d and sometimes you have I don't even know this stuff, but I know sometimes you want to keep your baby and you can't and you have to do these things. Or people's family members would have died if they had to be forced to give birth. It's like these people, it's hard to talk to them because it seems that they were open to anything. They would have already realized.
This now, you know.
It's like, I have members of my family that are anti choice and li.
Then I just looked at my phone. It's eleven eleven. I think we can make a collective wish. Let's make a collective wish.
Great.
I have members of my family, though, who are anti choice, who are not these QAnon wacko people that you think of, you know what I mean that are throwing rocks at pregnant people outside of a planned parenthood.
Like it is it is like.
Oh, but they're religious, but it's a religious things, right, it's not even religious, and what is it. It's like this is I think this is a life and that's it. And like some but are they fighting as much for when the people are born? Are they fighting against the death penalty? It's bullshito. No, no, it's whatever they say. That's a lie, that is a bullshit. It's like it's that is not real because if it was real, they would be doing other things.
They're not.
No, absolutely.
But the other thing too, is like when you talk to people like this that are like, oh, well, this is just when I think a life happens. They also agree with these exceptions of rape, exceptions of incest, these certain exceptions, and it's like, yes, but there are too many exceptions. There are too many things. It has to be blanket. It has to be blanketly like granted and not want.
To have a kid and that is fine, yes to me, Like being like, oh no, it's more broad, Like being anti choice is crazy to me. To me, Like, it's not the majority like eighty percent.
Like I saw a poll today that was like twenty percent of people are saying that they believe in this because it's a control thing that the end of the day, no matter how you.
Twist it, it is I don't believe.
In this so you can't do that.
Yeah, yeah, you know a lot of Jewish people were posting that in Jewish faith it is absolutely mandatory to do an abortion to save.
Them other's life. Yeah, you know what I mean.
So what is your You know, it's control and arrogance and thinking that people need to live the way you need to live. And to think that you're saving babies from a giant genocide, go fuck yourself. You know what's really happening. There's kids in cages. Why don't you go help them? On American soil. There's kids in cages being fucking human trafficked by government officials. Why don't you worry
about that? These are all bullshit people. I don't respect them, I don't like them, and I don't have to be nice to them. If I was in a conversation with someone and they revealed that they were anti choice, I would get up and walk away. I would have no reason to have the people in my life or entertain them. Yeah, and that is a that is a hard line for me, and I don't you know. If there are people on this podcast, I don't care, write us an email. I don't give a shit. I'm not changing my point.
If you are pro if you are anti choice, and you listen to this podcast, I mean, wow, well listen, we're going to get more into this in a couple of weeks when we do, like Liza mentioned, a more abortion specific episode, and you know, there's a lot of move We obviously wish we could do one very soon. There's a lot of moving pieces to this podcast. We're not dragging our feet. We've had the idea to talk about this for a long time. Also, this was a leak. This wasn't supposed to come out until June.
But I also believe do you hear this that they leaked it on purpose so people are mad now, so then when it's overturned, people will be calm.
And it's like, yeah, but we need to like keep the outrage up. I don't think that that's difficult to keep the outrage up for May and June. I mean we had a full summer of like protesting for Black Lives Matter. I think people can keep it up. So I really hope that's that's bullshit. But I have heard that theory from other people that they leaked it on purpose to like sort of dull the rage when the actual decision comes down.
Not those fuckers. Fuck everyone. But I don't want this to all be so can What can you tell people about your Monday Night?
Maybe?
Yeah, just so it's like a little bit of a positive twist.
So yeah, So Monday night, I went to this wonderful show hosted by a drag queen named Tony Soto in Silver Lake at the Amazing Gay Bar Act Bar.
It's an amazing, amazing.
Bar that I love to go to and I'd never been to this before and it was like, it's just a lip sync contest. It's like you sign up and it's almost like a lip sync open mic. You can just sign up and go up and lip sync to whatever song you want. Some people are in drag, some people are fully just in their their street clothes, just doing whatever.
It was so fun. Tony is such a funny host.
My two friends Brent and l It from the You're Making It Worse podcast were judging it and it was I just.
Had a blast.
Shake Cool was there, former friend of the pod guest from our very first live show, and I got to hang out with Shay and Maxwell from the Top Model podcast and everybody and Shay's boyfriend Dan who we love like it was just a really really fun night and an unexpected, like Monday night thing. I was just like, I'm just gonna go check this out, and then it turned out to be like just one of the funnest
nights I've had in a while. And then we got an email offering Lisa and I to be judges, So mark your little calendars down.
We're gonna be judging learn the words.
Bitch at Acbar on July eleventh, So really excited about that. And then I'll also plug one other quick thing we've we A couple of weeks ago, we told a lot of you guys about the podcast Ruined, which is hosted by our friends Alice and Lebey and Hallie Keefer. It's where one girl loves the other one hates it and she explains a horror movie to the horror hater, and it's like a fun little podcast about horror. If you whether you love the horror you hate it, You've got one person on there that.
You can identify with.
And I'm going to be a guest host of it today on today's episode of Ruined. So go to Apple or Spotify or wherever you podcast and check out I'm the one getting explained to, because you guys know I'm not a huge horror girl.
So yeah, that's.
Coming out today. And then, as usual, I want to plug our tour dates. You guys, we are touring around a little bit still. We've got shows coming up. Let me tell you. We've got shows coming up in San Diego on June fifth, San Francisco on June ninth. And I don't think we've announced it on the podcast yet that we are coming to Minneapolis.
If you live in the.
Midwest, if you live anywhere within driving distance of Minneapolis, come see us at the Minneapolis Comedy Festival. That's on June nineteen. Look, the show is at four o'clock in the afternoon. You can drive back to wherever you live and you can get home in time to, like, I don't know, put your kids to bed or whatever you need. But it's kind of a fun afternoon thing on Father's Day. Ditch your father or the father in your life and
come see us. And we just found out also that right after Minneapolis will be heading to dun Da Da Da Da Da, Liza's hometown of Chicago, two.
Shows at Zany's so excited.
We're gonna be at Zany's Downtown on June twentieth and June twenty first two shows listen. It's a small room and I kind of think that people listen in Chicago, So get your tickets quickly so that you know you don't get left in the cold and you don't get to come see us in Chicago. We're so excited, guys, You've all been so awesome coming to see us on tour. And even if you don't live in one of these cities,
we're probably coming to your city soon. Thank you for all the comments on Instagram telling us what's you live in. But if you live in if you have friends in the places where we're coming.
Please spread the word.
Help us be able to sell tickets so that we can come to your.
City and we have fun. We have a good time.
Yeah, no, we have a blast.
My big claim to fame with a celeb this week was I got to do Natasha Lazio and Mosha Casher's podcast Endless Honeymoon And it was at the Masonic Theater at the Hollywood Forever Cemetery. I've ever been there, and what a place, what a place. It feels so special and I was indoors. It wasn't outside at the time. It was in the Masonic Lodge and which is on the grounds, but they have an whole artistic program and
it's gorgeous in there. And my mom was like, when I was talking to her, she goes a show it a cemetery.
What's going on in California?
Like it is like wild, it's so celebratory, but we are in Hollywood and a lot of famous people are buried there. But Fred Ormison was the other guests with me, so I got to fucking just casually hang out with a fucking snl legend and everyone was so funny. But he had his fiftieth birthday party at that lot at the part, you know, and his friends got together and his big gift was they got him a plot at the cemetery.
Wow.
So he has a plot and all of his friends like presented it to him on his fiftieth birthday at the at the Masonic class. Wow. They're like, this is where you're gonna be buried.
Wow. Yeah.
But it was cool doing someone else's podcast live and it was so fun and there was people asking for advice. But Mosha Natasha just so funny and quick and like so funny I and Fred. I mean I was just laughing and laughing and it was just like a special evening and I can't wait.
To go back to that cemetery.
Yeah, I've been on I've been at a couple of satyrs. Guy Branham does these satyrs that are so fun there, like he fully plots them out like a game show and they're all these little mini games and stuff. And it's a lot of comedians and then a lot of like just his gay friends and it's so fun.
And Mosha Natasha have been at a.
Few or one was on Zoom during the pandemic, and it always feels like I'm like trying to make them laugh, Like, so I they are so funny, and I'm.
Sure the show was so awesome.
Yeah, and there was a couple we had to make fun of them, but they came to the Netflix as a joke festival for their honeymoon. Wow, And so Natasha was like, well we went to Bora, Bora, but cool.
So that. Yeah, just like a.
Couple fun things that we did while the world burns around us that maybe will lead us into this horrific episode. Yeah, damn things, Thanks for being our friends, and yeah, listen to this podcast. Yeah, let's get started, because this has been you know, on account of our ranting, this has been a beefy intro, and we do have a very fun hot episode for you.
So here it is.
So today we are doing Making a Rapist Season eighteen, episode two, and you know, it's a tough one, I would say, but thrilled.
And I was also thinking, I'm.
Happy for the writers and everyone that Warren Light took a few days off or a few seasons off so they didn't have to do eighteen letters and they could just have making a Rapist, which is a good title, you know what I mean. Yeah, they didn't have to play any Anagram games. So congratulations to the writers of season eighteen with a chill title. Now we do open on Joe Biden, which is jarring because.
Yeah, and thank you to everybody who's reached out and said please get Joe Biden as a guest on the podcast.
I don't know what we would.
Have asked him. He's on for two minutes.
But I also think it would be really funny to have secret service on a Zoom with us or something.
Yeah, I mean, he can't even do his job. Right now.
I don't know if you can get an extra podcast in that schedule of his truly, just can you do something? Okay, he is vice president at this point, if you are unaware. So he is talking about abuse of power and that rape is the worst abuse of power and how hard it is for women to heal, and then again like the victim isn't believed in rape kits, how invasive they are, they're not tested, and we fail women all the time. Oh and then he goes like, and now we're here
to celebrate this squad. So the sixteenth Precinct is getting a vice president. Hero welcome and he knows Olivia Benson and everybody. So that's I just wonder how this came about, Like, yeah, did he reach out?
Did she reach out? Did they meet up an event?
But saw him at like a dinner and was like, let's talk, joyful heart, and would you want to come and do this? Like for sure, I think vice presidents can do little like cameos on shows and it's not like that weird.
I guess it's weird to be president now.
Well, I didn't realize vice president was such a disrespected job until the show V Yeah.
And then it was thrilling. I'm like, wow, I guess they.
Just go to county fairs and that's the way that they're the way that they do Kamala dirty all the time.
It's like, yeah, the show kind of warned you, you know that it was going to be like this.
Yeah, but people love proximity to power. Yes, And everyone is staring at Joe Biden very seriously. We have Benson's behind him, and then Ice Rollins and Creasy in front with the crowd and there's like thirty people listening to Biden speak. He calls Benson a friend and he congratulates her and she, you know, she thinks it's an honor.
And since we've started clearing the rape backlog, he says, we've taken rapists off the street, prevented future crimes, and now we're able to write a terrible wrong.
And we're getting into the thick of the episode.
Here we find out sixteen years ago a man named Sean Roberts was convicted of a rape, and then they panned to a white man with like a anchor hair and outfit. He did not commit the rape because and they found that out because they processed a rape kit in Detroit and found the real rapist and now Sean is able to be free after sixteen years incarcerated. And they also panned the camera to a mother daughter duo
who the mom is played by Kelly Williams. Hell, yes, if you watch the practice, this is a big day for us all. And there's a lot of press at this event, and Sean is thanking everyone and he's been out of jail for a month and it feels great, obviously, and he says he has no ill will towards Melanie and Ashley, that's the mother daughter duo, and they want to make amends, and Ashley reveals she invited Sean to her future wedding and they're going to be friends. And Benson,
shocked by that, nuds she's judgy. There's a subtle brow lift there. And then the mom, Melanie, walks over to Benson, who says, wow, so you guys have gotten close, and she says she's just glad that Sean has forgiven her and Finn says, hey, it was an honest mistake, girl,
but let bygones be by guns. Finn throw out those whole episodes like whatever mistakes happen, like he truly could not care less about falsely imprisoning a man field close to two decades, like I will mention eight times throughout this episode of Finn just being like, I think I did my job. I don't know what you want me to do, like truly does not care, and we know that about him. He goes home to play video games. A job is a job, and he wants to sit at the.
Probably have to detach a little bit when you're in a job like that.
I don't know.
I feel like that's ICE's philosophy, you know, Yeah.
And then Finn mentions that Ashley was six the last time he saw her, so we realized that Finn handled this big case. And so she's getting married a child bride at twenty six, so that is happening. And they're taking Sean out for his birthday tonight. This is a very fast and furious relationship and it's the first time that he can legally drink, so he's ready to get lit.
She says have fun, but does not mean it, and then says stay safe, and I think she does mean that by she I mean but and obviously ominous background music plays and we cut to police lights flashing. Finn walks in front of the lights, pissed as hell. Melanie asked for Finn specifically, so he walks in and a uniformed cop explains to Alan's what went down. So the mom Melanie was sleeping, she smelled smoke and called it in.
Her daughter asked.
She was raped, strangled, stabbed, burned, poured with bleach, Like, are you fucking kidding me?
Before the cold open?
I all, I, I just am like, and then we see her burned hands, which again it's a lot they were before the credits, it's a lot.
So we see the burned hands.
We get this list and then Melanie, you know, Melanie says she came down and found her like this and she did hear a man's voice and she says it was Sean, So that sucks and they all look very worried. Credits and we're back and we're in the hospital and Benson is giving a seamless recap to get us on the same page. While it looks like a just a calm chat, but really she's giving us the lowdown so
we don't forget anything. Ashley Harper was raped and stabbed and Sean Roberts is responsible, So how like we what the fuck? Finn says, the mom heard his voice, but they all went to dinner, so like were they hanging out?
Like what fucking happened?
Rollin says, there is no sign of forced entry, and the kitchen knife is missing, and you know they did the bleach, did get rid of all the DNA, and so now they're going to track down the fiance and they're going through all her texts and social media. They're really working hard and quick for the case. Benson says, we need to be sure about every single detail. She does a deep breath, which I understand. This is going to be a stressful day. And Cariese's here and they
need to talk to Sean and Melanie and everyone. Honestly, they have to talk to everyone. And you see Benson take on like Kragan's traffic police, like crossing guard the energy. Finn gets like defensive and he's like, what, I'm off the case, and she goes absolutely not. If you step away, it looks personal, you're fucking on the case, okay. And Benson goes to talk to Miss Harper and she's wet
in the eyes. The daughter is still in surgery, and there's just like it's not good, a lot of blood, a lot of burns.
She's really good in this, like Kelly Williams, like she just like is so like we've seen a lot of grieving moms. We've seen a lot of this, and I'm just she has the perfect like a combination of like sadness but also like shock. She's so shocked, like in shock from this trauma. And she's really really good in this.
And you always talk about like the one tear drop dropping, but like for this, it's like the wet stays in her eyes. Yeah, the whole thing, like it bills and doesn't even drop. And you're right, this is a like a career defining performance. She just got me. I was like, oh my god. Well that's also the worst way to find your child.
Yeah.
And they also seem like the kind of mother and daughter who are like my mom's my best friend, Yeah, which I would never say, but I think a lot of people do like to say that.
Yeah.
And I also I'm with Benson and I don't think anyone should have gone out with this convict.
But whatever, I guess by don to be bygones.
So Benson, you know, is asking about Sean, and Melanie said that she heard them talking around midnight and she went to shower and went to sleep, and then so they have to talk to Sean.
So that's all we have.
Like she didn't see anything, She can't think of anyone that would hurt her daughter and especially not her fiance Zach. But then she remembers, like, fuck, the engagement ring wasn't there, and I think that's why they zoomed in on her burned hands to like your shadow. I thought it was just to upset us, but I think it's to show that the engagement ring wasn't there, So it is very smart television making.
Then we get a doctor to walk in.
I don't know who he is and I don't care, and he just shakes his head no, which means Ashley did not make it, so she's dead. This is sad, Poor Ashley, Poor Melanie, and Melanie starts full on crying the news. Finn and Rawlins go to Sean Roberts's apartment and Finn says he has thirty million reasons not to leave town, which is alluding to Sean's lawsuit against the state. So, like, you know, once you're in prison for sixteen years falsely, you can sue people, so he is suing the department
for like thirty million dollars. He opens the door, he seems confused, like why they want to talk, and he does not let them inside. They give them the news and he looks shocked, Oh my god, what happened?
Ashley's dead.
He seems very stressed and he wants to go comfort Melanie immediately, and he is put off by them wanting to ask him questions like you know, do I need a lawyer?
And Ronin's like, why would you need a lawyer?
And it's like, are we ignoring he did spend sixteen years in prison.
False.
This happens throughout the episode where they're like, why is he acting like this? Why do you distress the cops? What's the problem? Like they are so stupid in this episode, And he says something that for some reason, I think this is the first time in eighteen seasons someone said that. But he does say, anytime you talk to the cops, you should have a lawyer, And no one ever has said that. No one's ever put it out there like that. Yeah, no, put it on a T shirt. They'll ask for one.
But like that, clearly, it's like, do not talk to any fucking cop.
Yeah.
He points to Finn and says, you taught me that burn Ooh, I learned it from watching you dad.
He denies being at the house after dinner or at all. He says, eleven eleven thirty, he went to a strip club and he has a bandage on his hand, so roll And says, and you hurt your hand at the strip club and he says yes. And then I didn't go alone, and I had a fucking friend, So you
go talk to him. It's my friend Jeff Nichols. And he was at the birthday dinner too, So he lets them know Hell'sgate Diners where Jeff works, and so and he goes, and I need to leave because I need to call Melanie and I need to make sure she's okay.
Go talk to Jeff. Go fuck yourself.
And it's also like Melanie will not be okay, Like there's no there's no need to check out.
She's doing terrible, but have at it.
Yeah, Like the closeness is weird, Like she needs me, her wrongly convicted rapist, to call her right now in her hour of need.
Like it's just it's weird. Yeah, not her sister best friend crying coworker. Yeah, a falsely imprisoned man who like within the month they got that closed.
Because it's not like they were that it was right. It's not like they were corresponding. Yeah, yeah, that is so true. Finn goes, we're putting on marked car on him. I don't give a fuck. Let's stalk him, just in case he wants to run. And they go to the diner and I do see hash Browns, and that's exciting. This chef cook, he has a bandan on and he says, yeah, after dinner, we went to the ballet ask the strippers, so a real wise guy. I also love seeing the
papers and schedules on the back wall. I don't know if you noticed that, with like four leaf clover magnets and pins and so there are some details of this show.
Really gives me such.
An appreciation for the crew and all the production designers that they Yeah, it would.
Be fun to talk to a production designer for the show too, for sure.
Yeah, because I you know, I worked at a restaurant and I do love sheets on a wall with our schedules and rules.
Yes, I do shut paperwork and like how to stop someone from choking in the kitchen and it's like stained because it's next to the dishwasher.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah, it's so cool to see people's attention to detail and be able to appreciate it. And he's not cooperating the way like the way that they would like, so they threaten him with pearle violations. He finally admits that Sean told him to say what he's been saying, and you know, obviously you guys try to jam him up last time, so he's scared, and Finn looks pissed again. Dude, come on, and he turns on his friend quickly. I mean,
these are jail friends. They don't go a fuck. He says, yeah, we were at the strip club, but he didn't come until two in the morning. He said Sean would never hurt her though he adored Ashley and was always there for her. And we also get info that her fiance
threatened to break up the engagement. So we cut to a man in a tan suit, baby blue dress shirt and interrogation very easy, sir, prep wedding vibes, and he's sad and he did love Ashley a lot, and he asked, you know what happened and Rollins goes, well, we we wanted you to tell us, and Chrisy asks himone was the last time you saw her and he says, right
before they went to dinner with that convict. He lies about them fighting, and Rollins is like, honey, we went through her text, so there's no reason of like lying. We know that you were fighting. And in the text he did ask for the ring back. He says, yeah, I was pissed. We made plans and she blew me off for Sean and he's like, I get it, but
it doesn't make the guy a saint. Like, yes, he did spend jail like unfairly, but it doesn't make him this like amazing fucking human And I'm pissed that I got blown off for that.
But he said he was at a bar.
He was at the Dakota Bar two blocks away from Ashley's house though does not look good, but also his apartments right there. And he did say that he was at the bar all night except a girl spilled red wine on him, so we went home to change and came back. And they do not love that at all. He says, I didn't kill ash Are you guys crazy? I have nothing to do with this, and it cuts to Barbara and a corkboard suspects. So far, barges corkboard sexual and the suspects are just Sean and Zach.
So far.
Rollins is going through Ashley's social media, and she does have a lot of male followers, and so they're looking at all the.
I like, actually, if you look at my followers, I think I'm like eighty percent women and twenty percent male, So like I liked it. If something happened to me, they'd be like, she's like mostly female followers, So I don't think it's like anything from her social Oh my.
God, I'm so curious. I want to know.
So and the timelines are all really tight, so like from midnight till nine one one call at one twenty, Like there's not much wiggle room in terms of like when this could have occurred. And Sean doesn't have an alibi, but Zach does. The bartender did confirm the red wine incident, also still missing the knife from the kitchen, and Finn is just like whatever, it's Sean, and Rollins goes, no, there's a Charlie Dopkins in her messages on social media and her asking this man to please stop looking in
her window. So let's go talk to fucking Charlie Hopkins. And so it's August sixteenth, let's see what's up in the summer summer heat. And they ask a woman coming out of an apartment building, and truly, I can't like report on her, like do you I don't do you have a take on this woman? Like I could not get a read on what this character was, but like what they wanted to portray or anything, like just I am like blacking.
Out on who you're talking about. Described Yeah that's my point. Oh, okay, she's just like a neighbor. But I was like, are you doing laundry? Are you sketchy? Or are you a nos? Like I could not figure her out. But also it is just a quick line. I don't know, I shouldn't whatever.
This woman does help the detectives out, even though truly cannot get a read on her. If you guys have any opinions or what you think, maybe this will be a fun story. We'll post a photo of her and people can write in the comments who they think she is and what her backstory is. But she says, go check the roof, and Creasey finds a tent with weed and pills and hand lotion and tissues and a futon mattress with pillows and blankets and.
Tissues.
It's like, yeah, disgusting, like spank shack on a roof, it's like sough.
Yeah, and the roof though, like you can see right into Ashley's window, so you know they're not they're not loving what they're seeing. And then they Creesy says they found he found Coney Island whitefish in the tent, Like did he have a container of whitefish for bagels? Or is this like a code word that I don't know about, Like is this cocaine or is this truly whitefish?
You know what I mean?
Yeah, but I didn't even know Coney Island made their own whitefish.
Like it was just very confusing.
Wait, should I google this really quick and see if it's like let me just google it, and I think Lisa's on it. It's a used condom, used kdom.
This is huge, This is exciting.
We got to the bottom of it.
But the eating whitefish like a bagel, No.
This is like somebody with like the New York slang was in the writer's room and was like, yeah, I left the Coney Island Whitefish behind. I guess I don't really have a name for a used condom. I'm just like, ew, there's a used condom on the floor, like on the ground, Like I never have had like a cute nickname for it.
Yes, so now we know it's Coney Island whitefish is a used condom. An Alas does not look happy with the news, disgusted, but of course Caresy would say that, oh my god, that's so fucking funny after they find the used condom, and I feel, as listeners, you should be really grateful that we found that out for you, because I bet you didn't know, and maybe you guys knew.
Maybe you're all hip and from stack, I bet you.
Our comments on this episode are going to be filled with like what people call used condoms. They're gonna be like, oh, we call that like a yeah, we call that like a sad sack from Sunnyside or whatever, like yeah.
Jesse Bloom.
And Charlie finally walks in and he sees the cops and starts running, and of course it's the classic I didn't do anything, and it's like okay, well, and then Rollins is holding a bloody knife in her hand and goes, well, what's this? So I do love that Benson is now talking to the mom of the victim and letting her know they found the murder weapon and makeup and hair really killed it in terms of like really making her
look like a grieving woman. And she says they didn't know the neighbor boy well but thought he was odd, but they didn't think much of it. But they asked Melanie to like look through all his junk from the tent to see if we find Ashley's stuff in there. But we don't have any final answers on if the killer is this boy Charlie or not.
And this boy Charlie is played by a kid named Cody Costro, who I recognize from Mayor of Easttown. Okay, yeah, I think we're gonna see more.
From this guy.
Okay, So this is the beginnings for him, the beginning, Yeah, yeah, all right, you heard it here first.
Yeah.
So he's an interrogation with Careesy and Rollins and is being asked and he keeps me like, can I call my mom?
And they're like, no, he had a bloody knife.
We're not calling your mom, sir, And did you take this photo of Ashley through her window, and he's like, well, yeah, she always stood there. She clearly wanted me to see. Fucking psycho Incel.
Yeah, I was.
Getting Hold in March vibes from him, like immediately, like I was like, oh, this guy, I bet he's very nice, like the actor that plays Hold in March, but the character I know.
I just remembered we talked a little hold in March and so nice.
God, we talked to such good people. It's really unfair to everyone else in the world. Okay, he does have a girlfriend named Chavn who told him it was fucked up to take pictures of the girl, but he didn't care, and they're trying to trick him to more. And so then his mother and girlfriend come running into the precinct and ask for you know, ask Finn for Charlie, and Chavon is wild and it's like, you need to let him go now, and I just can't imagine having the balls to talk to Iced Tea like.
That, Like I just I really can't.
And they say listen, he will confess and agree to anything because he has maybe has feel alcohol syndrome. They don't really talk about why he's so easily influenced, though I don't really get it. Yeah, but it's weird. He has some sort of issue where he's a people pleaser in a weird way, but they don't diagnose him.
So I don't know.
But the girlfriend says he didn't do it.
I have proof. He was with me all night long.
So he was having sex with Cheven and they took a bunch of videos of themselves fucking with time codes. So he's actually like on camera the whole time having sex and did not commit the crime. He said he picked the knife up off the curb after the killer dropped it. So Liv is like, okay, now you're a witness, so can we like get some more information, like what exactly did you see when? So they're back on the roof trying to recreate the drama and get his like
memory going. He said he saw a white man who dropped something in the trash bag, so we went to go get it, and Chrasey's like, yay, the knife, we already know that. Can you just maybe tell us something new? We need you to be sure though. It's a murder investigation, so like, can you please be on it? But Amanda starts flirting. She can't really help it, so she's begging him to focus. Then shows him photos and he's straight up is like, I'll do whatever you want.
You're pretty, Like he's calling Amanda pretty.
He's so in love with her and they're just showing and he goes out live for you.
I don't give a fuck, like to will this help you? Like, tell me what to do.
I'll say whatever you need, and she goes, no, we just need the truth. Just tell us the truth. We didn't know games. But she is eye fucking him. So it's like what mix messages, very mixed messages, But don't say yes if you're not sure, and he says, yes, I'm sure it's Sean. I swear that it's Sean. But I don't feel like this is reliable. The squad is now their full big jacket gear and they're ready to
pick up Sean. He screams, this is harassment. You need a warrant, and they go, yeah, we have a fucking warrant. So Finn goes and immediately finds Ashley's diamond ring in the kitchen sink drain. Rollins asks him how it got there, and he says, I don't know but they arrest his ass obviously, and before that they can finish the miranda rights. He's like, shut up, I know I was innocnth and I'm I said now as they take him away, he's an interrogation but alone waiting for his lawyer.
And who's the lawyer? Buchanan?
Baby, So you know this motherfucker's guilty. If you're hiring Buchanan, you did it. And Benson is like, wow, he swooped in fast, and it's like, yeah, that is his job. And also, this man did spend sixteen years in jail for a crime he didn't commit. Why are we forgetting this? But we love Buchanan and Benson and Finn, Phil and Barbara.
You know, there was blood found on one of his shoes in the ring and it's everything by the book, and Barbara isn't a purple tie and I don't know if we've ever seen that before, and it's not a shirt, so I feel like it's appropriate and okay for me to mention. And Buchanan's like, honey, the lawsuit price has just went up for harassment. And Chrisy says, we found the engagement ring in the drain period and stop like, what more can you say? And Buchanan accuses Finn of
framing him and that it's a frame up job. Rolin says, damn, I hope you're getting a discount because your lawyer's fucking dumb as hell, and Buchanan says Sean is not a murder or a rapist and he has never committed a crime. Sean then says, you really think I would do that to her? She was nice to me. She's the only person who's ever been nice to me. She treated me like I was normal. And Rollin goes, yeah, and then you raped and killed her as a thank you good job, And he says, no, I did not.
I know what it's like to be raped.
I would never And now we find out a little bit more details about him, and he got he went to jail at eighteen years old, one hundred and forty pounds.
Yeah, so that's something to think about.
But they are taking him back to jail, and that's not good in terms of trauma if he was being raped since he was eighteen all the time in this jail.
There should be like weight class jails, Like small people all get to go to one.
Big guys all get to go to one. I don't know, I think it would.
Be I like that idea, but you know, in con Air, Steve Buscemi is the tiniest but with the most gear on his face.
You know, I've never seen con Air, but I hear what you're saying. Yeah, you never know, because and orange is the new black.
Like sometimes like tiny women were like tough ass bitches, you know, So I could see how that would could backfire. But I just feel bad when like really young small guys go to jail or just.
See if they didn't commit the crime, yeah, or if they did no. I mean, I think law enforcement should be better about people getting fully raped under their care. Yeah, but that's the world we live in, and it fucking blows. But Steve Bmi in con Air, his whole thing is like talking about crimes of passions versus crimes of necessities and the great to do it out of passion, and he goes into this weird thing, and Nicholas Cage is like, stop talking to me, but we got to put that
on the big screen. Let's like do a projector.
It's a really in my backyard, do it.
It is like a projector style popcorn blockbuster.
Of a movie like it is just huge.
Okay, this is not a Connyer podcast, and I will digress. I'm just saying size isn't everything, But I do believe that people should not be put in a place where they are obviously going to be raped with no repercussions or anyone helping them.
Yeah.
The detectives in Barba are scared though, that the jury is going to buy this frame story, and Barba goes, yeah, I mean people are going to feel bad for him, and Finn goes, no, it is different this time. Melanie walks in and Barbara introduces himself and he was hoping it was somebody else, but evidence it is what it is.
And Benson's like, I'm sure we can't even imagine how you're feeling right now, And Finn and Benson and Melanie are talking and we see Sean being dragged out handcuffed by Chrisy and Rollins is with Buchanan and He's screaming at them, you can't do this to me again. Is this because I made you look bad because of the lawsuit? Please I'll stop. No, no, no no, And then Melanie starts crying. It's just like a lot on her, and
now we're in court. His friend from the strip club night is on this Dan saying how he was joking around about how Ashley should leave Jack for him, and after Ashley was like crying about her fiance and Sean was like, I'm gonna be a millionaire, like fuck me, I'm gonna get rich, and she was fine and playing along, but then he got drunk and he started acting stupid.
So the women left and didn't really like the way he was acting, but that he did feel bad for his drunk behavior, so we went back to their house to apologize. And then he really liked Ashley and thought that she was hot and that she liked him too, So is that why he went back like to have sex with his crush?
Like what is this? Like, what's happening?
And then there's an objection and now it's time for Buchanan, who's gonna poke some holes in the testimony, and he's such a dick and he's just like, oh, so you're a mind reader? Any other magical powers you have? So he's laying it on in terms of grease ball, and we get a peek at the judge and it's Queen Elena Barth love her redhead. That's not the other redhead Lewis Lois Louis, Yeah, do you always call her Judge Louis.
Now on stand is some sort of professional guy and he's talking about transitioning as a wrongly convicted inmate to a free citizen. And this guy says, it's like pretty impossible to do that because you know, you're trying to
make sense of everything, and it's very trauma inducing. It's a lot to suffer, and it's the same kind of trauma as people that are veterans of war or torture survivors, like a mood debas if you remember that episode from season eleven and those who are I cannot believe that name just popped into my head, but I'm pretty proud of myself and those who were raped a bunch in jail.
It makes it even harder, and it makes dating hard and like you know, it's very easy to misread social cues and it makes it hard to deal with rejection. So there's just like, obviously a lot happens too when you're in jail and wrongly, so expert opinion, wrongfully imprisoned then raped, Like, what are the chances he could live a normal life and the sky goes impossible and Buchanan does the classic we all know what he's about to do.
Have you ever met my client?
No?
Okay, so your expert opinions don't really work with him and are based on other people's testimony and are a complete waste of time. Yes, And that's that so very very complicated case. And we bring in Charlie, who's a mess.
Rollin says he's not bright. Finn and Barbara I have an exchange and Finn just doesn't feel like Barbara trusts him or his action, but Barbara's just like, listen, I do, but I can't put you on in fin Leaves and we're in court, Charlie's talking and I'm like, oh my god, Buchanan's gonna.
Kill your fucking ass. And he does.
He goes, wow, so you were having fun with your girl on the roof. Good for you, lucky guy. And then it's like, hey, so you were doing drugs, you were drinking, you were fucking it was dead of night, you're on a roof and you absolutely saw this man like okay, well, and then while he's like talking on the stand, he goes well and Detective Rolins and then he stops talking, but Buchanan already heard it, so sorry, bro, and he goes, wait, what about Detective Rollins?
And he says, did she tell you to say something?
And Charlie goes no, And they were like, did she encourage you? Like tell us what went down? And he said, I got a shoulder pat and I thought she wanted me, so I told her what she wanted to hear because I got a shoulder pat.
And he can't.
And he can't tell if the shoulder pat was like before after the fucking was before after a Sean.
I mean, this kid's a mess. My notes are a mess.
We're moving on, okay, So I Buchanan asks another question and there's like a big pause and Charlie just like keeps looking at Rollins, and Buchanan has to go, hey, I know Rollins is hot, but you gotta stop looking at her and start telling the truth. Look at me, Charlie,
why did you say what you did? And he said, I thought she would like it if I said it was, you know, after the fucking So Buchanan's like, so she flirted with you to say what she wanted and he says, no, I just wanted her to like me, and she needed to solve the case.
And Buchanan's doing.
A very very good job as a lawyer, but shame on them for even putting him on the stands.
Yeah, Barbara, come on, buddy, I find it hard to believe Barbara would have done that.
Yeah.
I hope our friend Robert did not write this episode because we hate this part. Barbara looks pissed, Benson looks pissed, Amanda looks pissed.
Commercial break.
Now we're back and Barba's screaming at the detectives like the principal is mad and he's letting these bad.
Bad students know that he is pissed.
Amanda is like, relax, and he goes no, and then and they all just are not understanding the gravity of the situation. And then Amanda let it slip, like, how is it my fault? This kid had a crush on me? And Benson turns to her like, wait, you knew the kid had a crush on you. And Cariese starts defending his woman and you know, the future mother of his step kids, and he goes, hey, you stop that. I
was there, and Barbara goes, shut the fuck up. I making excuses for her, and Kries turns it on Barbara and goes, it is not my fault that bu Can and fucking spun that shit and you couldn't do your job, and Benson goes, okay, okay, we're done, let's stop. So she's defending her number one man, Barbara. So there's just like a lot of you know, jets versus sharks? Is that a reference? Barbara says like, we're not going to get a conviction with what has happened so far, so
we really do need physical evidence. But how are we going to get this evidence? So we're back in court and Finn's on the stand giving the play by play of his search at Sean's apartment and Barba asks about the ground with a defendant and he says, well, yeah, now that he killed Ashley, and you know, of course an objection and it is sustained, and then Finn adds, if anything, I was rooting for the guy when he got out, no grudges. And now it's Buchanan's turn at Finn,
and he's like, are you embarrassed? This is okay, this is what I'm like, Finn, come on. So Buchanan's like are you embarrassed about putting an innocent man in prison for sixteen years? And he goes, nope, I didn't put him there. I just arrested him and he just did his job. And it is the way it is, and that is wild, but it's true, but is wild. And
Buchanan just comes for his ass. He's like, you know, would you feel better now if he's found guilty, so then all of your reputations will be vindicated that he is an actual criminal. And I says, like, shut shut up, like I said, I did my job then and I did my job now, and he goes, you mean framing Sean Roberts again, Barba objection Benson with a dirty stare at Buchanan. And now we're at a hot dog stand where Finn isn't a he's looking fly as he Honestly,
I think this is the sexiest he's ever looked. He has sunglasses on, like a really nice blue fitted suit like I was just like okay, Coco, like.
I was really happy about this.
And he's talking to Melanie and he's telling her like this guy is guilty and we will get him, and she goes stop. I don't know if it's true, like nobody really knows. And she's like, we're all just guessing and connecting the dots, and Finn is like I found as she's ring in his drain, come on, and she, of course is just questioning herself with what happened last time, and she doesn't know what to think and Fin leans in and goes, did you hear his voice or not?
Melanie then says I'm not sure now, and he goes, but you said it at the crime scene. You just have to tell the truth. You don't have to convict him. The jury decides all you have to do is say the truth. And she is scared what if she's wrong again? And we cut to Barbara and he's like, what do you mean she won't testify and Finn goes, yeah, she's not sure anymore. What do you want? And he goes,
what the fuck did you say? They're just fighting. This is a really heated episode with the inner office politics.
I would say, I.
Don't think there was a fun drink at the dark Mahogany bar after this, you know.
No trips to the cop bar here.
And we had a Ada at our Denver Live show and not an Ada, A detective and I asked him like Ada's and detectives like, are they friends? And he goes, they're a team because here they're always fighting and I need more evidence.
Go fuck yourself. But they do love each other. I mean they do, but there's some love there is.
But I did like hearing the real detective shout out to you being like, oh, we're a team.
I mean he looked.
I feel like he glowed when he said, like how much he loves his lawyers that he works with. Yeah, Benson does defend fit though, and you know, like he was trying to help. And Barbara goes, whatever she has to testify, I don't give a shit, and if she's a hostile witness, I don't care. We're getting justice with
or without her cooperation. And she's on the stand going, I don't want to do this your honor, And Barbara go's permission to treat this witness's hostile please, And the judge is like, miss Harper, you must answer the questions, and Barba goes, did you hear his voice right? She's like, well, I'm not sure now, but you were sure. But she says, I don't think Sean would kill Ashley. He cared for her,
and his whole life was ahead of him. And Barbara keeps nailing her, like you heard his voice, you heard his voice, and she goes yes, but and her tan is really cute too, Like I do wonder if she was in the Bahamas before this taping or like she has a good Colt persen a like makeup choice, but she does have a tan like that she was just in the Hamptons or something. She then says what I did to Sean was unforgivable. I told the jury he
did it and I was wrong. And he's like, that's why you're hesitating, right, And Barbara really like spins some movie magic here, and Barbara says, you blame yourself for your daughter's death. Right, you sent this man to prison. That's where he learned to be a killer and a rapist. So if you didn't make that false, I d he would not have gone to prison and then come out and killed your daughter. And if he called her, then you killed her. And it's too painful to accept, and
that's why you don't want to testify. And she starts crying on the stand. She said, you know I sent him there, and every time he was beaten or raped it's my fault and I turned him into a monster and it was my fault. I'm the guilty one here, and Barbwa goes for you to feel this guilty. You obviously think he killed your daughter, which means you're certain you heard his voice around midnight?
Correct?
And she says yes with tears in her face. Buchanan looks defeated. Sean looks like he feels something, but I can't put a name on it, Like do you did you identify a feeling?
Yeah.
Barbara and Benson are in the hallway and Buchanan comes up to them and says, I'm ready to discuss the plea and Barbara goes too late, bitch, and he says, well, plead guilty to manslaughter. Barbara does not like that because that's only five years for like a brutal rape and murder. But you know he already's spent sixteen, so sixteen and five is twenty one.
But can you serve backwards time?
Like I don't really know if I have an opinion on this, Like I see both of their points of view. Barba says, if you murder too, you serve a minimum of fifteen and Buchanan says done. So I guess that little game that Barbara played really made an impact that Buchanan is down to make a fifteen year deal. Benson goes, but we need him to allocute and let everyone know we got it right this time. So now it's time for the plea and allocution and Melanie, you know, he says, Melanie,
I'm so so sorry. I know how much you loved Ashley, but I cared for her too. She gave me hope I can start over, and she wasn't afraid to be alone with me and didn't look at me like I was dirt like everyone else. So then I proved her wrong, Like what the fuck is wrong with you? I mean,
we know what's wrong with him. Okay, so he says, but that night, I was drunk and I wasn't used to that, and I went to talk to her and to say I was sorry for how I acted at dinner and told her how much you know, I liked her, and she laughed. And you know, we know this. You can't laugh at a man. You might be murdered. So yeah, laugh at a man, he will burn you to death.
So Melanie's there's like a phrase that's like men are scared that women will laugh at them.
Women are scared that men will kill them.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah, that's the saying. That's it. Yeah, that's like on first dates, like men's fears or that. But Melanie's crying and he said, you can't let people laugh at you. I learned that in prison, and that I understand because I like watching youtubes of women who've been to prison, and they do like little videos like how we're just the New Black isn't like real prison,
or like top ten rules you must follow. And one of them said, like, I think I talked about this on the podcast, but like if someone budges you in line, it might seem chill, but like you need to fucking stand your ground and teach them a lesson because all jail is his lines. And so once people know they could cut you in line, they're gonna keep.
Cutting you in line.
Yeah, And so I understand what he's saying that in prison, like if someone laughs to you, you need to show him whose boss?
And so I get where that comes from. Yeah, but his version of showing whose boss was over the top. Yeah.
I'm not defending Sean, I'm just talking about yeah, the programs, Yeah, in jail and being drunk without drink. I mean, it's just fuck you though, But like he should have confessed immediately, like to put Melanie through it, like you are a monster and you do deserve to be in jail or not.
This is a lot And it's like what I always say about, like where did you learn the acting skills in jail?
Like he was like, you know, I feel like you'd be like it wasn't me, It wasn't me. But these guys are.
Like what it wasn't like I gotta go call Melanie, like you were like putting on this full act that you're like this dear family friend instead of just being like now, you guys got the wrong guy.
Like I don't know.
It's just funny where they learn the acting skills?
Yeah, like maybe Sean Williams Scott not Sean Williams, Scott Scott Winter Peters. What the fuck is our guest's name, Scott william Winter William Winters. Yeah, maybe he went over there to teach an acting class. So that is very inside for only people that have SI. I can't I can't even talk about that reference. He goes things happened to me, and I swore I wouldn't do it to others, but I did it to Ashley, and I didn't want to. It just happened. And Melanie runs out of the courtroom.
Benson follows her. Buchanan has the wet eyes. Did you notice Buchanan had like tears in his eyes?
Oh?
No, and anger, but I've never seen it before, but he had like weld up waiting tears in his eyes.
Will yeah.
I actually I rerounded it a few times because I'd never seen him with that much emotion in terms of crying. We've seen him be a dick to rape victims. Benson stops Melanie outside. I'm sorry, she says, and she says, I know, and at least I know he did it this time. And Benson says, it's not your fault. And she says, then whose is it? And she walks down the stairs and her life's gonna be bad for talking trauma. She might have it now, joins Olivia. He's wearing sunglasses,
he says, bad guy goes down. That's all that matters. And it's like, okay, go home and play video games. You're doing the shit out of me today, and Benson says, if you ever feel like talking, and he says talking's overrated. Barbara then walks into replace Finn and says justice sure isn't pretty some days, and Benson says, well, sure as hell was ugly this time, and that's dick wolf baby. Yeah, yikers, I do love a Benson Barba ending yeah on the
court steps. That's not the first time, and episodes ended that way won't be the last. Okay, take us through this giant crime because I know it was like this was like the Jinks and Making a Murderer kind of were like the big I think crime docuseries that created this snowball effect in populiarity and growing, and I avoided it for some reason, like the plague.
So I know nothing. Can't wait, can't wait, We'll be right back.
After a word from our sponsors, we are back and we are diving into this massive true crime. This episode aired in September of twenty sixteen, which is about nine months after Making a Murderer a docuseries premiered on Netflix and took the world by storm. I mean I was obsessed.
I watched the whole thing through and then I remember I took Jared home to my house for Christmas, and let's see, we were already married, but we went home for Christmas that year and we just watched it again and he was like, you guys are absolutely ill, like what is going on? Like he could not believe that my family just sat around on Christmas and rewatched like a killer documentary.
And you know, we just that's what we enjoy.
My sister and I have also famously listened to serial podcast twice through on road trips together, like we just love murder as a family. So this docu series was filmed over the course of ten years. It's very like they were very embedded with these people. Yes, and I'm just really excited to be able to share with you because I don't think you know anything about it, right.
No, Yeah, Okay.
So the story starts in nineteen eighty five in Wisconsin. Penny Pearnsten was jogging along Lake Michigan and was attacked. She was dragged into the woods and sexually assaulted. She identified Stephen Avery, a Wisconsin man aged twenty two, as her attacker in a lineup and from a photo, even though he had an alibi and a timestamped receipt and sixty nine witnesses that put him miles away from this assault.
So he gets convicted and he goes to jail much like in the episode for you know, raping this woman, and he was in jail for eighteen years, and even in nineteen ninety five. This like makes me very annoyed at life, you know, the legal system, you know, in just the way this went down, like in nineteen ninety five.
So ten years into his sentence, a detective in another county said that an inmate was talking about how he had committed a crime in Manitouwac County, which is where this took place, and that someone else was in jail for the crime, and he got in touch with Manitauc sheriff, a sheriff deputy I think named Thomas Kokoric and who told them, quote, we already have the right guy, don't
concern yourself with it. And then he served eighteen years in prison, and the Innocence Project of Wisconsin helped to clear his name, and sure enough, DNA evidence completely exonerated him and pointed to another man whose name was Gregory Allen, who looked pretty much exactly like Stephen and had a history of assaults against women. The cops had an eye on him, and yet they never showed a picture of this man to the victim. They never put this man into a lineup the way that Stephen was.
And was this the.
Man Gregory Allen in jail in Manatoc and he was in a different county, But I think so, I think so. Yes, this article did not make it clear because I asked myself the same question, But I'm pretty sure, yes, so is this guy Gregory Allen, who Yes, he had been incarcerated for other crimes against women, like he was known as like a predator, and so yeah, he went to jail in nineteen eighty five, and he got released in
two thousand and three. And of course, much like in the episode of SVU, he promptly filed a civil suit against Manituac County for thirty six million dollars for his wrongful conviction. And you know, the Avery family, I wouldn't say was beloved. They were kind of they're sort of like rural people, not very educated. They a lot of them got in trouble with the law, like Steven had already been in trouble for burglarizing a bar and other things.
They the law enforcement in the town seemed to like have it out for the family. Steven, I'm going to give a trigger warning right now for our cat lovers out there. You're gonna want to do a flast forward thirty seconds maybe a minute on this one.
And Lisa is gonna jet from this taping. Yeah, she's not sticking around.
He did get a convicted of animal cruelty for dousing a cat and gasoline and throwing it into a bonfire and just like watching it burn. So he you know, it's he had some criminal tendencies of cruelty and he also tried to run a sheriff's wife off the road
in his car. His older brother was charged and later acquitted for sexual assault, but also for domestic violence against his wife, and later was charged with sexual assault of a child, but pleaded no contest to fourth degree sexual assault and battery and spent only forty five days in jail and three years on probation for that charge. I don't there's not more information on this, but the family is not great. Yeah, oh so, I'm sorry. The older
brother was the sexual assault case that was acquitted. The younger brother was the or the other charges. I said, so both of his brothers have all these issues and so as they illustrate in this episode, it was very hard for Steven when he got out of prison. He was depressed, he was frustrated, he got into he was getting in a lot of fights with his family over the family business. They had a salvage yard, like an auto salvage yard.
See I knew nothing about it, but I did sense salvage yard vibes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And like I think that's kind of like part of what people sort of liked gawking at in the documentary series was like, oh yeah, these like yocal kind of Wisconsin people that have like really thick accents and like have a salvage yard. You know, it's like they're just regular people. But you know, I think that was a lot of making fun of the accents, making fun of the like you know, rural ness of it was part of the I feel like the virality
of that docuseries. So anyway, yeah, his life was frustrating when he got out of prison. He had was fighting with his family over the business. He got divorced, his relationship with his kids basically disappeared. But his family did say that you know, a couple of years later, things were turning around for him. He had a new girlfriend named Jody Stakowski. That's like another thing I remember from the like from the show. He'd be like, Jody, I'm gonna buy you a jet ski, like you know, people
would like quote the quote making a murderer like. And they were planning a wedding, apparently, him and his girlfriend. And he was working full time at the salvage yard, and he'd gotten twenty five grand from the Wisconsin Claims Board and there was apparently maybe more coming.
And then he had these two power.
Lawyers from Milwaukee, Stephen Glynn and Walter Kelly, who were representing him in his thirty six million dollar wrong full conviction suit. So he had, you know, big plans, like his dad said, I read this really good article about this that'll be in our show notes in Milwaukee magazine.
And Steven the dad said.
Steven's dad said, Stevie had everything going for him, everything, and he was happy. So that's like the state of mind in two thousand and five. Okay, Then Halloween of two thousand and five, Teresa Hallback a young woman.
She's twenty five years old. She's a photographer.
She works and takes photographs for Auto Trader magazine, So when people are going to sell their cars in this magazine, she'll go out and take photos of the car. And she went out to the Avery family salvage yard to take photos of a mini van that Stephen was selling for his sister. And Stephen is the one that made
the appointment, even though it was the sister's car. And he apparently called Teresa Halbach's sell a couple of times, and in or maybe three times, and in like two of the times he did that thing where you call your you hide your number? Is that star six to six? Star sixty nine? Oh, that's how you find out? Star sixty nine is how you call back?
Right? Star six six is how you like mask your.
NOTT sixty six. It's got to be six seven. And it's just too close to the devil. I can't imagine like phone companies choosing sixty six. Yeah, at sixty seven, there's no air country on a leash start sixty seven. Yea, it is Star sixty seven. I'm a double worshiper.
Yeah, that's why I was. I'm sorry.
I am in the midst of a satanic panic, and I apologize.
Yes, I think that Rosie is in Montessori, but she's actually and she's an.
Over switch school that I put her into.
Have you seen that clip of that little girl where they're like, you're gonna change the world and she goes, no, I'm gonna I'm evil. I'm gonna turn everyone into a witch. Have you seen that kid? Oh, it's cute, And then the end she goes, I'm just kidding, but people send it to me, going she reminds me of you, But it's a really funny kid. That's really cute.
Okay, I'm gonna try to find that last time I see it, I'll send it over to poured it over.
Yeah.
But so he called her a couple of times on her cell and was hiding his number, like that's kind of sketchy, and he apparently when he called auto Trader, he was like, send the girl you sent last time or something. So it's like he was specifically requesting her. And so what happens next This is an account from witnesses, but including his nephew Brendan Dacy. Okay, so apparently what happens is she shows up knocks on the door of
Stephen Avery's house. No One answers, and so she goes around to the back of the trailer where she's out of you from other people. He opens the door and he's wearing a towel. He must have told people that, because I don't know how anyone else would.
Have known that.
And somehow she enters Stephen Avery's home and nobody knows whether it was on her own accord or not.
Okay.
Brendan Dacy, Steven's sixteen year old nephew shows up from school, checks the mail and there's a letter in the mail for his uncle. So he goes to bring it to
his uncle's trailer and apparently he's here. Screams as he's approaching the trailer, and according to Brendan, when uncle comes to the door, he is sweaty from like, you know, he says, like having sex with some woman or something, and he asks, do you want to come in and take a turn, And when he walks in, Brendan reports that Teresa is shackled to the bed, naked, face up, spread eagle and begging him like don't do this, don't do this, please, you know, begging for her life. And
he said he raped her while his uncle watched. He then said that they went and watched TV for a few minutes, and that his uncle then explained that they were going to kill her, and then they went into the room. Steven stabbed her, then told Brendan to cut her neck. He did it, and then Steven told him cut her hair, so he did that, and then Avery choked Teresa for a couple of minutes, and then they untied her body from the bed, tied her up with rope,
and carried her to the garage. At this point, she is dead and they fucked up. It's super fucked up. But wait for it. So then they placed the body in the trunk of the car, and then Avery tells Dacy that he was planning to dump the body in a pond that's by the salvage yard, but the pond was dry, so he decides, okay, just burn her in
the fire pit that's behind our garage. And there was already like a fire going in it, so before they carried her there, apparently, according to Brendan, Avery put her on the garage floor and walked to his house, got a semi automatic rifle and then fired.
Ten rounds into her body. What the fuck?
Yes, Then, with Dassy in the park passenger seat. He said, Avery drove the rab for to the far side of the salvage yard, passing the car crush her. He could have just crushed the car, but he just drove it past and said, I'm gonna crush this car. Later then, Avery walked back to the trailer and apparently stashed the Toyota ignition key in a drawer, and then took all the sheets off the bed and put them on the
fire pit. And Brendan reported that while he was helping his uncle wipe down the garage floor, he did get bleach on his blue jeans and it turned the fabric white, and his mom later confirmed that he had stained his parts while helping his uncle clean the garage around Halloween.
This motherfucker better be in prison. We'll hold on a nephew, so fucking hang like, let's bring back a hanging public.
Well this is what this is, what's like.
I'm sure people that watch making a murder are like, we'se a weight because like there's more. So a few days later, obviously Teresa's family reports are missing.
It's like, wait that there's more, like infomercial like in drag Race, but sadder.
So a couple days after she goes missing. She's very beloved, like she has a close knit family. Her family's like looking for her desperately. All the people in the community are looking for her for this like nice young girl.
And so there's a search party and they're checking the Avery salvage yard because like, you know, there's proof that she was headed there, like this was like you know, And so the search party goes to search the salvage yard, and honestly, Stephen's brother said, yeah, go ahead, search the salvage yard. And they find her rav four with the license plates removed, underneath a bunch of like brush, and they've got like some you know, car hoods and auto parts kind of like covering it so it looks like
it's trying to be hidden. So then later they find her crumpled license plates in a scrapped car down the road from Avery's trailer. They did find some spent rifle casings in his garage and a pair of handcuffs and leg irons in his house and in his bathroom. Apparently on the surface of the vanity there were some dried blood spots.
So then the manuch Wak they have been relieved.
Of the case because it is a conflict of interest because of this lawsuit, and so like another not another county, but another sheriff's department is covering it, but they're using Manitowoc deputies to help them. So a Manitowac deputy finds the key to Hauliback's rav four, which by the way, is the car I drive. And when my family found out that I got a row for they were like, oh my god, what are you? Teresa hallback like that. You know, it was like a lot of I was
getting a lot of flack for it. But they look very different than they did in two thousand and five. Anyway, he finds a key to her car. It just like falls out of a book. And in the documentary they heavily implied that this key could have been planted because this is like a sheriff from the town that is under the lawsuit that has targeted this family for years. And anyway, so in a six by six foot fire pit behind the Avery's garage, they did find human tissue
teeth and bones that was crushed and charred. And then in a barrel used to burn trash, they did find a cell phone and a camera and eventually Avery's blood was found on Teresa's car, and DNA from his sweat was found on the key that they found, so DNA exonerated him and then puts him back in prison. So eleven days after Teresa's gone missing, Avery is charged arrested in charge with murder, kidnapping, sexual assault.
And mutilation of a corpse.
What about the nephew, hold on, it's coming, Okay, I'm sorry.
It's okay.
He immediately begins claiming that this is a frame job from Manitoua County to avoid paying his civil suit. And if you do look at it, it is kind of like, why would this man do this? He had he stood to gain all this money, he's been out for two years. Here's the other thing. When they go and they search the bedroom, this bedroom where apparently this bloody, violent murder and rape happened, there's no blood.
There's no blood anywhere.
There's no blood in the garage where apparently he shot her ten times with and I know he had bleach, but like I just if you see this man, you're like, this is not a criminal mastermind, this is not someone It's like what you were saying about Scott Peterson, Like there's just no way that so little evidence would be found like DNA or blood if this is where the murder happened. So a lot of people don't think the murder happened in the trailer because and I'll get to it.
So he immediately starts claiming it's a frame job. His lawyers argued that a sample of his blood that had been taken a decade earlier in his appeals process for the rape had been tampered with. There was a puncture hole in it, so like a manage walk deputy very well could have taken a smear of blood put it on Teresa Hallback's car. It was a small, small amount
of blood of his that they found. So the documentary really does toy with you, like they have people talking about how Steven used to, like, yeah, torture cats even like before his rape wrongful rape conviction. But then the doc also like very much demonizes the prosecutor ken Kratz and the whole law enforcement in the area, like ken Kratz was like fully clowned from this documentary, Like he
has like a dog named Cheddar. My brother used to like send us photos of ken Kratz and his dog named Cheddar like, I don't know, it's just he When you see the guy, he's very whiny, like the only he tunks in the documentary, and it's like you just hate Ken Kratz, even if he's doing the right thing. You just hate him when you're watching it and you just don't know. You're like, this could be a frame. Who knows. And I used to think when I watched it,
I was like, this man is innocent. But I thought that about Adnan, sayed, I'm very like, I don't know. I guess I'm a glasses half full when it comes to like an accused person. I'm when I think that there might be wrongfully accused, I'm like, no, they didn't do it. I'm very susceptible to this kind of documentarianism and journalism. So after this aired, Stephen be starting to become represented by Kathleen Zelner, who is a very hot shot Chicago lawyer who does a lot of these wrong
folk conventions and stuff like that. She's featured a little bit at the end of Making a Murder season one, and she's like the main character of season two, and she's just this very funny, like rich woman, like rich looking lawyer woman who like talks about it, and she's still filing appeals for Avery today. In two thousand and six, he ended up settling for his wrong full rape conviction for four hundred K, which was supposed to be thirty
six million. And the Innocence Project has exonerated one hundred and seventy four people, and as of two thousand and six, Stephen Avery was the only one to be charged with a violent crime after release. So here's one of the most controversial things in the document, and that is the role that Avery's nephew, Brendan Dassy may Or may not have played in this crime. So, first of all, Brendan was Steven's alibi at first. So when they bring him in,
he's sixteen. He has an extremely low IQ. So this is I believe where they're getting some of the Charlie hornsby what's the guy's name, Charlie whatever, the guy in the episode that wants to fuck Rollins like that. The guy we were saying he might have some kind of disorder. I think he just has a very low IQ. So he was in special ed classes and they brought this kid in. They interrogated him multiple times, hours at a time, no parent, no counsel present. Okay, this is a kid
that just wants to get out of there. They keep telling him, if you just tell us what happened, you can go back to school. You know, they're doing all these tactics that are approved for questioning adults, but not for questioning like sixteen year old, like kids with low IQs.
You know, it's like it doesn't feel.
Yeah, yeah, but I don't care what you're a Q is. If you fucking raped this person and did any like, I don't give a fuck.
He later said that he made it all up and it was from a book that he read, and a lot of people have written, and there's there's sources to this in our show notes. A lot of people think that he is retelling the plot of James Patterson's book Kiss the Girls.
Have you seen that movie or read that book? I like that you asked for the movie first.
That was a shade, But I have read the book and I was a big James Patterson head.
And that's why I added the book because I knew that you like James Patta. And here's the thing a lot of people did like all this comparison, where they at first they he said he read it in a book. But what they really think is that he watched the movie of Kiss the Girls, because a lot of the stuff that that he said happened is in Kiss the Girls and is in the movie and not in the book. And so yeah, he later completely recanted his confession, said
he was making all this stuff up. There is not a lot of evidence of Teresa's assault happening in the trailer, like I said, like there being no blood on this bed where you said that you cut her throat open, he stabbed her in the stomach.
There's no blood, Okay, like.
Sure, but but what about the teeth and the things, and the woman is dead. She's dead, she was killed there.
But I think there there is a lot of reasonable doubt where some people think, okay, let me just okay go back, Yeah, let me just go back because okay, so just to finish off the Brendan part, so the cops all told him he could just go home, So he just made up a bunch of shits so he could get the fuck out of there.
And you can tell in.
His confession tapes, which are in the dock, that he has no idea what he's talking about, and that, like, so then there's this whole kiss the girl's connection. He later completely recanted his confession. His initial lawyer was a guy named Len Kachinski, who is also villainized in the in the Dock and is not a good lawyer. He came on after the confession and he's like, there's no way a jury's going to acquit this kid, even though there was zero DNA tying him to the murder.
His DNA was nowhere.
So you're telling me this kid rape the girl, slid her throat.
Did all this no DNA of this kid, No, because a lot of this part of it did not happen, in my opinion, and this was one of Wisconsin's biggest criminal investigations ever. Like people said that when the salvage yard, when the car was found, the whole salvage yard became like a full CSI episode, like no one in or out, Like they've set up a full, like freestanding building to examine her car in so they wouldn't have to move
it very far. Like there was DNA taken from every fucking service, nothing tying DASSI to this assault or this murder. So when Kacinski couldn't get the confession thrown out. He basically told Dacy to get a plea deal. He's like, do a plea deal. And so a lot of people think that he had ineffective counsel and that he should not be in jail because of this coerse confession and
ineffective council and all this stuff. He set up another meeting with Dascy in the authorities, and then he didn't show up the lawyer he was like away serving in the army reserve or something, and so a judge removed him from the case. And now Dassy is represented by Stephen Drisden and Laura and Nyrider, who are professors at Northwestern's Center of Wrongful Convictions of Youth, and they are
experts in the false confessions from juveniles. And in twenty sixteen, no I believe it was in twenty seventeen, a judge actually ruled that his confession was coerced, and then like another appellate judge or circuit court said no, it was fine.
So there was a huge.
Day where all of us were like Brendan Dacy's getting out of jail because a lot of people think Stephen Avery is involved in this murder.
Probably me too, but a lot.
But there is kind of no evidence that it happened the way Brendan said, or that Brendan had anything to do with it, Like he just like no one thinks he has the capacity to like really, oh well.
His uncle threatened him.
He was just like it's still like there's just not there's just not the evidence that Brendan had anything to do with it besides this wild confession. And so he's still in jail and still filing for appeal and still filing for parole.
And as Stephen Avery's still filing like appeals too, or he's just so.
Stephen Avery is still Kathleen Zelner is still on it.
She's still doing appeals for him.
The last article I saw was from the end of twenty twenty one, and they're trying to get you know, new habeas corpus. So here's here's the thing I found out.
There's a theory in the doc When you watch the doc Brendan Dacy has a brother named Bobby Dassy and a stepfather named Scott Taddick, and I believe in the documentary they say that they were both home at the state at the time of you know, Teresa's arrival at the home and disappearance, and there was like some people saying that, oh, a witness saw them driving way in Teresa's car and then saw it circle back, like all this stuff that the cops really didn't pay attention to
because they were like, no, it's Steven and Steven, it's Stephen. So there's this possibility that people think that this father and son did it, that they took her somewhere else and murdered her and then burned her in the back of the family salvage yard. And that's why there's no physical evidence of the murder anywhere on the property. So this is like what got people fucking boners up on Reddit, you know, like this is what was happening.
Like I'm not even a big Reddit person.
I was like on Reddit reading theories, like I was so into this, like thinking just like why would this guy fucking do this?
Like he knows he's gonna get caught.
This wasn't like a crime of passion where a woman yelled at him like they said in the episode. This seems thought out that he had her come out there to kill her, knowing that they have cell phone calls together. People are gonna be wondering where she is, you know what I mean, It just like doesn't all hold together.
So did anyone ever investigate this dad's son duo? I don't think so.
I don't think it was like they I think they were each other's alibis and it was like it just wasn't a thing. And I don't know if the witnesses were credible. But now they're saying that there's a potential new witness who was not evaluated at this most recent appeal process, but could still be presented later in another
court hearing. And this witness is a delivery driver named Thomas Sewinski, who claims to have seen quote a shirtless Bobby Dassy and an quote unidentified older male pushing a Toyota rav for down Avery Road towards the junkyard in the early morning hours of November fifth, according to court documents filed by Zelner in April.
But did Steven say that he opened the door and let her in? Like, was that ever confirmed? I don't know, Like the towel. So there's a lot of circumstantial evidence. It's just hard to say, Like, you know, if Stephen's innocent, maybe this was just a regular day in his life, like the way that odd Nonsayed claims it was a regular day in his life, and you know, his junior year of high school or senior of high school or whatever. So I don't know.
I think this is one of the reasons why people are so obsessed with this case, because this is a guy who served all this time. Certainly, if he killed Teresa hallback, she doesn't her justice does not lie on his false conviction, Like he doesn't get like back pay for jail time, you know what I mean, Like he doesn't get to use his jail time to commit other crimes.
But I don't know.
It just seems like the motive seems really difficult when he was standing to earn millions of dollars. If not the whole thirty six million, he could have even a million dollars would have changed this guy's life, you know. So I just find it hard to believe that he would have just like lured a girl out to his house, killed her and thought he could get away with it. It just doesn't seem like he's smart enough for that.
So I don't know for sure, But if someone has this low siq, you don't think about the future, Like I don't think your weighing out options and like what's going to happen or consequences, I don't know.
But then it's like his family tries to say that he was his family's Like he was working hard, he wanted to buy a house, He was looking forward to marrying his girlfriend. Like if you're in jail for eighteen years for something you didn't do, like, wouldn't you kind of do anything to not go back there, Like I don't know, well.
And that's the thing, and SV you didn't talk about this, but like my she as a listener of the podcast, so if I fuck up facts, she'll let us know. But I worked with someone and her mom dated someone that spent twenty five years in prison, and then they were living together, and like he would still sleep in his prison outfit and like sleep on the floor, curled up, and still had all these weird habits from prison, like and could not really break out of it.
And they had a.
Weird relationship obviously, but and he was going blind whatever hit me up, girl, if this is real or not, But that stuck with me forever. But he would like still wear his prison jumpsuit and like couldeh get.
Out of that?
So maybe maybe buying a house, getting married in all these real life things were too overwhelming and stressful and he wanted to be back in prison.
Yeah, maybe he is still maintaining his innocence, like he's been saying from the jump, this is a frame job from the Manitua County, you know, Sheriff's department. Like why would he have kept the key to the car. Why wouldn't you have like thrown that into a field or something?
You know what I mean.
Like there's a lot. I guess maybe I'm thinking maybe I'm being too But so you think this uncle or like this other duo, Dad and Sun duo, Like I mean, I do think it's a little bit wild that out of nowhere this new witness comes up being like, yeah, I saw these alternate people that could easily have been involved in Like where have you been? Like where have you been? I know you're a truck drive delivery driver?
Have you been on a fifteen year Like, I mean, this case happened seventeen years ago, and like we're just hearing now that you saw these people pushing the car. I don't know, but I'm just hoping that our comments section today will be popping because I am curious to know what everyone is thinking. Like, obviously there's Oukham's razor, right,
Like the simplest solution is probably the right solution. Like it seems like it should just be Steve and Avery, but just seems like there's a few things that and the documentary play toys with that, you know, like there's just a few things that you're like that doesn't really add up, and like, you know, I do think that Brendan Dacy should be like allowed out of jail.
I don't think he had anything to do with it, but that is the case. Well, yeah he had bad counsel.
Yeah, and a judge almost over a judge overturned his confession and then another court said no, it's upheld. So it's just like I remember like getting a Twitter alert that Brendan Dascy's getting out of jail, and I was like all right, and then it just totally like didn't work out, like another judge blocked him from getting out of jail.
But also it's like the more we learn about everything, like judges are just guys, just go just peeps.
Yeah, it's just funny.
It's like to me, Okay, we're trusting this investigation with the same in the same hands essentially as handled the investigation where this man went to jail for eighteen years for no reason. I do it probably makes the most sense that he had something to do with it.
But also cops foot up all the time for lots of different reasons constantly. It doesn't matter if it's Manataqua or Milwaukee or whatever fucking other city you want to point to.
In Wisconsin.
I'm sure they're fucking up and being lazy, like most of the cases that we cover.
No, I know, I just I can kind of.
I don't necessarily always buy oh, they're framing me, but I kind of almost buy it here because this this sheriff's office is of this county, hates this family, and that's what they talk about a lot in the dock. They set that up a lot. So anyway, I can't wait to see the comments section. I can't wait to
hear what you guys think. I'm very on the I was a total Steven averys innocent person for like two years after this came out, and then as time went on, I was like, yeah, I probably did it, So I don't know well and.
Also like it.
You are right in terms of like small town politics versus like big city politics.
And I know people from this town this era.
You don't.
Yes, I do know somebody who's from that place. And it's funny when they're like they'll just be like, yes, I'm from the Stephen Avery area, like yeah, Like.
So, thank you so much. I'm going to work. Thank you for listening.
I'm glad I could give you this sort of like you know, moral and we'll be judicial brands.
Stood was so fucked up, and then to hear the details of how this woman was murdered makes me sick.
But that might but that that is probably not how it happened. Of course, she was probably murdered in a horrible way, but I don't think that's what happened.
What I described to you.
I know, just the idea of all that's left of you is teeth, I know, brutal.
It's like you hope that the death part was like quick and painless and that you know, then they can just you know, well, anyway I do.
I want to say that we have an epic guest, one of the greatest of all time, and it was a joy and a pleasure and so that I think you'll all be.
Really fucking excited. Who were about to talk to?
Okay, guys, today's guest. We are so excited.
I've been wanting to get this guy since the jump of this podcast. I've always wanted to have him on. You have seen him in pivotal roles on iconic dramas like The Wire and Ray Donovan, and currently you can catch him on an HBO Max original mini series called We Own This City. But you guys know him as the defense attorney that you love to hate, Mister John Buchanan. Please check out our very fun interview with Delaney Williams.
I did a stand up show at the Kennedy Center a few weeks ago, and I talked to one of your former students, like I was doing a radio show.
I was doing a radio or press or something I don't remember.
And then afterwards she goes by the way and said that you were amazing, a great teacher, and like she loved working with you.
Oh, that's very kind of you to say, kind of her to say I must have paid her well.
No, it made us.
Even more excited because obviously your character one of the most evil defense attorneys in the twenty three season history. Do people yell at you in the streets or what.
A little bit? Yeah, I have I have no friends on Twitter. I have only enemies, as you can.
And so yeah, you we we follow you on Twitter, our our podcast does and you are very active on there.
What's your what's the draw to Twitter for you? Do you like? Do you just like to get yelled at?
No? No, no. The Twitter thing kind of came around for me when the pandemic happened, just to get out in the world. I guess I started getting more active on Twitter, and it's you know, it's part of the business for sure. And as for you, has taught me a lot. Rishka and moren in those guys like, yeah, this is what we do.
Yeah, they're very active on social and the fan the fandom is very active too, and I find we find sometimes that the fans have a hard time separating the actors from the people.
So yeah, absolutely, I'm sure.
You do get some unnecessary hate.
I understand that that's where they're coming from. But uh, for the most part, everybody in the end understands that you know, the actor is the actor, but it weighs on you open.
But I do always say, because we like to play a game like if you're guilty, who are you hiring? And I would hire Buchanan if I needed to get we go away with murder.
Oh so only if you're guilty is what you said.
Yeah, if I didn't do it, I would go for one of the like like an Annie Potts whoever hers, you know, like a do gooder?
Sure, sure I got so that you automatically have the end with the jury, then yeah we like her.
Yeah.
So have you ever like, were there any scripts that you got that you were like, oh my god, this has gone to or like a case that really like stuck with you or something that just haunted you, or you were like, oh my god, I didn't know shit like this happens. Like, are any of your episodes stand out to you?
They all kind of stand out to me, but it's probably not going to be for reasons that that the viewers would know, because it's all behind the scenes stuff that generally it's it or a particular scene where nothing really particular happened, but it was an enjoyable day. So most of the you know, I don't know how many of these.
Well you could tell us those they'll love those.
Yeah, okay, we love scoop.
Well, they're not so much scoop as I just had great experiences do it. For instance, this one I had the one I was told we were talking about today, which is making the rapist. I don't remember the individual episodes all that well, especially this one's like six seven years old, but I did remember that. I believe it was Henry and Kelly Williams, yeah, because I watched it last night. So and Joe Biden, President Biden are in this episode, and of course he was vice president at
the time. It sort of stands out for the reason that the closest I got to a vice President Biden was I got the air conditioning unit that the Secret Service used prior to it being in my dressing room, so I was close to the air conditioning unit that was close to the secret Service unit. That was Yeah. And then that also was the episode where I got to take my sons to set, which you know, if you know any of my work, they're in twenty and twenty two now, but they were like fourteen and sixteen then.
And I live in DC, and most of my works in New York or somewhere else, and so they never got to see me at work, and they've never got to see what I actually shoot, because most of my jobs are you know, not safe for young children, including as for you. I got to show them a couple of minutes once of one where Alec Baldwin was in it and he was sitting you know, he was the main character of the episode obviously, and he was sitting
behind me in the gallery. So I showed him a few minutes of that, and I was so proud that they were going to be like, there his dad doing the acting that he says he does. And all they could say was you know, Jack Donaghy. I was like, okay, so I know where I am. But I got a chance to take him to set on that day.
Did they think it was cool or were they like trying to be like, we don't care dad, even though probably deep down they thought it was cool?
Or Craft Services? Did they run with the craft services?
They got all the swag with the hats and the stuff from great folks there. I mean, it's the best job an actor can have too. They're just wonderful folks. And they didn't get to meet everybody. I know, they met Raoul because Raoul and I were working a lot uposite each other. There was such a great rapport we had doing Barbara and Buchanan stuff, and he worked that he was working there and they got to meet him.
They got to watch from video village. So because it was a very busy day, they couldn't even come with me to set because Joe Biden was working in the morning and so it was very limited. I couldn't even bring them with me, so I had to have friends bring them over after the Vice President left, and then they got to be on set. So wow, it's a lot of fun for them, and they enjoyed it.
I think, I know, that's awesome.
That's really fun when you get to show your kids what you do everything. My kids are really I have two kids too, and they're very young, so I imagine one day they'll be like, what's podcasting anyway?
Which is what I asked when I well, it was this is the very first podcast I've done. I've only yes, oh, I've never listened to one or seen one that which is not true. We worked this out last night my friend Rebecca. I Rebecca, she talked me through your podcast, said, what's going to what's going to happen because I asked, what's going to happen on this? And so she talked me through it, and we talked about the fact that
I had never been on one, let alone. I had never seen one or heard one, let alone been on one. And then I remember that I had actually heard the first couple of episodes of Cereal, and I was like, Hey, this is great. I'm going to get back to this. And that was eight ten years ago.
That was Oh my god.
I listened to Cereal through twice and I bet you'd really like it because it's all the Baltimore area, which is not super far from you, Like it's really really Oh I love zero.
Yeah, well, we're excited to be your first one.
Oh my god.
Yeah.
So I was curious about, like how your whole SVU thing started, Like did you audition?
Like I know you had already been on another another law and order before all intent? Yeah, criminal intent.
Yes, yes, yes, I could not tell you. The vagaries of how I get hired are almost always beyond me. But I can't tell you that. I read you're both your bios. One of you blew an audition.
Yeah that was me, that was me?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, congratulations joined the club. Yeah, absolutely certain. I blew my first you audition, however long ago. That was twenty years ago, but I had I did get hired to do Criminal Intent, and I think that led to because Warren Light was the showrunner of that show when I was hired to do it. And so much fun. I got to play the dead body on Law and Order. Yeah, yeah, it was so much fun. And another one I couldn't show my kids they were so young. But if you
haven't seen it, I won't spoil it for you. But he ends and he doesn't end well, and he ends early. So I showed him right up to the part where Dad ends. But I'm pretty sure I was hired originally when David Platt was the showrunner and I had worked
with him on the Wire in Baltimore. He had directed a couple of episodes, I think, and so my first episode as Buchanan was twenty ten something like that, and I believe David and Peter Ledo were the showrunners at the time, and I think that's how I got on, and then I was brought back. I guess they whenever they needed someone to defend some rich scumbag from Hudson University or something. I'm like, Okay, here I come, must be the bad guy for the bad guys.
So well, not to keep jumping around, but you did mention the wire. Okay, how does it feel to be in such a beloved show?
Do your sons? Have your sons watched that?
I mean, that's considered one of the greatest shows in television history.
Yeah, I hear that, and I agree. I mean, it's one of my favorite shows that I've ever seen, And of course it's the reason I still work in this business. I live in DC, and that opens and open the doors for me everywhere, including I'm sure through the law and order folks. But they've never seen it as far as I know. My eldest might be. He's out the doing this thing. But my twenty year old, I know,
hasn't seen any of it yet. And it's one of those things where it's like they're not really interested because Dad takes it takes them out of it. But I think it's at some point in the future. They both said, yeah, we'll watch that. I'm like, great, you know, enjoy it, and I did. I haven't seen it in well twenty years or fifteen whenever it ended. I remember enjoying watching it,
which I don't when I'm watching me at all. I can barely watch on order SVU because you know, I'm that guy who's like, yeah, I can't look at him. He's a terrible actor. But so I'm one of those people who doesn't like to watch themselves. But it was great doing that show. It opened all the doors and it's an important story and we're getting ready to release another one. I don't know if you know another David Simon George pelicanos Ed Burns production set in Baltimore called
We Own the City. It's coming out on HBO Max at the end of April the twenty fifth.
I believe, oh amazing, And are you a lawyer in this or are you a.
College It's a different story than it's about the city of Baltimore, but it's not the fictional telling of It's a fictionalized telling of nonfiction. So I play a version of Kevin Davis, who is a police commissioner in Baltimore. After Freddie Gray happens, he gets promoted to commissioner and then while the Gun Trace Task Force is being brought out into the public. So I played Kevin Davis during
those couple of years. I think it's two thousand and fifteen, sixteen, seventeen eighteen right in there.
So Kevin Davis is a real person that is really better and you're playing this real person.
Okay, guys, John Burnhal is playing a real person. Josh Charles is playing a real person. Jamie Hector. These are the leads of the series are Jamie Hector from the Wire and.
Boh and he's from Bosh right, He's obsess.
He was just in an episode no, but he was just in an episode of SVU that we covered.
He was in an SDU episode a long time ago. I'm just making connections.
So those they are playing a real folks and Umi Masako is playing I don't know. You'd have to ask the writers, but I think it's an amalgamation of people who are central to telling the story and.
How's the prep work to playing a real person versus, you know, a Buchanan.
I got a chance to meet Kevin and it was great. It was very helpful because I recorded some conversation with him in some video and there's video of him not actually playing him. I'm still playing a version of him, but it allows me to as the actor and I'm getting a little actory here, but it allowed me to just keep reminding myself not to act, not to create any more character than the man I knew and know
Kevin Davis. And in this particular telling of the story, it's also you know, these are all the people.
But then on the opposite side of that is like a Buchanan type character. How did you how do you like, I'm I'm I'm curious as to like how much of that is on the page versus what you put into it, because like when you're in this episode, I'm sure you don't remember because it was so long ago, but like you have this like you're you're interviewing this like team kid on the stand, you're about to cross examinem and
you go, hello, Charlie. You do this like little condescending wave like you're about to like you're about to destroy this kid.
And I just wonder, like, I'm like, is that on the page?
Is that you?
Like?
How how did you create Buchanan?
Like versus what did they give you? What did they tell you?
Well after the first episode or two, and the things I guess I had brought to that character, they sort of when it was Buchanan they were writing for. I think they wrote towards that sort of uh disposition and those sort of tactics, and then you play them. I mean, for instance, in that I remember that this episode. I remember also because the guests were fabulous. Henry was fabulous, Kelly Williams is just amazing, and this kid, Cody I think his name is, who played Charlie. I just saw
him again in Mayor of Eastown. He was fabulous and he was fabulous. He gave an amazing performance in this, and it was so it was easy for me to take what was you know, you know, it's minimal in the script, what they give you, but you understand the sense of it, or at least I try to understand the sense of it. You try and create the real
life of that moment. So knowing who the character of Charlie was and how best, how best Buchanan might approach him, and that's where that came from, is to like, get on Charlie's good side, I remember that, so he'd be as friendly to me, and then he gave up the goods.
So as it were, well, yeah, we love an in court confession, We love an in court breakdown.
Oh yeah, it's the best stuff.
How important is it for you to like, like or empathize with your character? Do you find goodness in him? Like do you have a background where he goes home or you're able to be like, this guy's kind of evil and loves money and I'm here in this moment, how do you do that?
One of my a tenant I lived by. His perspective is everything. And you know, especially when you you know, I play nothing but generally bad characters, and that people that are perceived as bad from the outside. And I understand that. When I get hired, I understand that that's all I read for. I also understand that to play him, And this is something I do when I teach acting. I start with the idea that somebody has to play Hitler.
And if you have to play Hitler, you have to believe like Hitler believes, and you have to think Hitler's doing the right thing when in everything that Hitler does. And so I'm not comparing Buchanan to Hitler. I think Buchanan is defending the sixth Amendment and working in the adversarial court system the way he's supposed to. But the concept remains the same, and that is somebody has to play the person that me personally I could not stand.
You know, in real life, I think is an evil, evil, evil, evil, evil human being. And so to do that, you have to believe what he believes, and you have to like what he likes, and you have to like the fact that you have to kind of assume that he likes what he's doing, that he thinks he's doing good. We have several examples of that currently around the world that are causing more than consternation. So let's not go there.
Yeah, yeah, I'll switch it up now.
You mentioned you mentioned Kelly Williams, and you know, so many amazing guest stars and cast members are on this show, and you get to see people in flexing. Those courtrooms seems are hard and emotional and people are breaking down and yelling. So are there any performances in your history that you remember or other people outside of Kelly that you were really excited to work with? H?
Oh God, Almost every single time I go oh that she I wanted to. Oh yes, every single time I see the name so and why wouldn't you? And of course it starts from the top. I mean, I'm sure, you've probably heard it before, but Mariska is a pretty good person. She is absolutely the greatest human being I've ever met in this business and probably in the world. So are one of them in the world anyway. And I don't know, I'm probably not the only one who
says that, but she is kind of amazing. And it starts with her, but it's everyone around her too, and and Kelly and Ice and Peter and Danny and Chris and you know, on and on. It's the best job I've ever had. They're just good folks. And so what was the question? I think I went somewhere else.
No, you did it.
I said, are there any like performances or people you were excited to work with? And it seems like everyone and you love the job and Marishka is a queen is.
Oh my gosh, Well, isn't that actually the answer?
Yeah, you totally answered it. Yeah.
We actually just heard the same thing from a season from a writer on the show that we interviewed and who also said that you are the very opposite of
your characters. So you know, the rap is your reputation is getting out there that you're a nice person and you're not Buchanan, but I like, so we like we also just watched We're covering We're covering another episode where you you know, you're grilling Scherie applebe on the stand in like the Mill like she was in the military in the Coastguard and is raped and then like Hannah Marx plays this rape victim who's it does porn and like you have to like go up against these victims
and like yell at them, and then what happens when they yell cut? Are you guys like hey, like are you making jokes or are you staying in it or like what's your what's your thing?
In the moment between takes and during the scenes, I kind of stay away from the victims and I'm going to leave them alone, the actors playing the victims, and I think they want to stay away from me. But usually it's it's, uh, you know, it's cordial because it's the business we're all working, right. It reminds me of I believe my very first episode was it was the one with Misha.
Barton yeap that Savior.
Okay, So Misha is on the stand and we're trying to get the scene the two of us flowing better because we need the drama. Uh, And I got the nod from the powers that be to go off script and start saying very very very vile things to catch her off guard and to get you know, another reaction to whatever they were getting. So it was kind of the best and kind of the worst day because I had to say some really really nasty things.
But I mean we just like we've talked to some people that are like, yeah, in between takes, Raoul is like singing l miz. I mean, do different people have all their different like you know things. So it's like, I'm just curious about your thing. But I think that's interesting that you're like, I'm just gonna stay away from the like the people playing the victim just until we're done, because like maybe they're playing it really method and you're not.
You're not somebody any woman wants to see when they're on the stand.
Yeah, well, there's some freedom when you're the regular and you're there every day, and that is Oh, he's just great. He is just as chill as he could possibly be between texts, and a lot of folks are like that. Peter can do that too, and everybody. Yeah, well, when you're there regularly because you have that that luxury of space and time, and but I have to stay in it because I have to nail it today.
Yeah, because we need you back.
We need you and we do too. Yes, bring back Buchan if you can in for da That's what I say.
Oh God, because we covered your last one as well. I deserve some loving too. We did that on our podcast too. Oh really Yeah, we talked to Lee Hubila the victim that you were probably me too, because I.
Was, yeah, that's what I do.
Do you ever, like in your real life, like if you're dealing with like an annoying person, like whip out some of that Buchanan.
Do you ever like tap into Buchanan?
I try to go the other directions because mostly the knowing people are expecting you can. So yeah, killing with kindness, Yeah, like you know that's you know, that's somebody that I play on TV. But you know I'm just the guy walking down the street.
So we're definitely getting that vibe.
Yes, trying to get you to be mean, but you're not doing it.
Okay, I could be mean.
I don't want to. I don't want it, too scared, So we're in this wheel house you're always like, you know, you're someone in the justice system that's being shady. What uh do you have a dream role character? Do you ever want a script to come in that's like fun dad, sweet, sweet, sit calm dad, Like, is there something you're like, can I just please fucking play this type of person?
Yeah? I think that probably has come across already. You know, I play this guy, but it's like the straight offers you get, Okay, the character that I get anyway, the character is Harvey Weinstein, but with a bag over his head so we won't even see your face. And I'm like, Okay, I get it. I play that guy. I get it.
Let's let's try something else, okay, anything else. So yeah, the dream role is the dream role is the next role? Yeah, you know for the journeyman actors.
So I'm not gonna pooh pooh on my niche, you know what I mean. But I am also open to other possibilities.
If you're in casting, Delaney Williams available to play your.
Next dad, college professor.
College inspiring college professor.
That's right, that's right.
Well, you know, sometimes though with the defense attorneys, we see a little crack or their heart softens or something happens to them and they need the detective's help. So maybe something like that will happen, where a case will break you and you'll be like, I can't do this.
Anymore, you know, from your mouth to Dicky.
Yeah, you can't go prophet and starts doing pro bo no work.
That's what I'm saying.
Why not, Why couldn't he be Why couldn't he be? Well?
Because shover Langham.
You know Murska's husband, Peter, he started out as like this nasty defense attorney.
By the end he's.
Helping Olivia get baby Noah, and he does pro bon no work and starts helping. So you know there's a true they flirt. Now we'll see what happens.
Oh, so are you what do they call it shipping them? No?
No, no, no, I'm open ownership.
We don't ship, but I hope when the show ends one day, I want Olivia with a man who deserves her.
But you know, I'm not I'm not stuck on who it is.
But we don't think it's to be Stabler.
No, not Stabler, so not Stabler.
But okay, I'm just gonna throw this out there. Don't don't call me crazy John if you can't Okay, okay, that's not gonna happen.
So we're thinking hilarious shark jump for us.
That would be amazing, that would be perfect.
For this actor. But the the person you think she should be with is who she is.
He in her life we don't know yet. We don't know if because we liked Ed Tucker but then they killed him off. But Cassidy is hot but too damaged for her. And I think Peter, I mean, it would be fun if she ended up with her real life husband on the show.
I wouldn't I think that should be fun. Or it's somebody that we haven't met.
Yet who's rich, who's gonna sweep her to Paris and she doesn't have to worry about anything anymore.
Well, I'm pulling for Peter myself, but I don't.
Know if you watch like we do.
But I just caught up and the newest but the Kelly Giddish and Peter Scaraveno are together now.
Yes that at the end of last year. They the end of last year, yes, right.
Now, like uh, you know, CARIESI took her to meet his family for Italians dinner.
So are progressing, which.
Is it, and so you want that one. I want that one too, I do, I do.
Yeah to the journey.
I like that.
You're into the ships this.
Yeah, Now I'm wondering about Finn. Wait a minute, about.
Ice have Yeah, he didn't got married, but well he didn't get married, he got engaged and then they had they had a wedding. But then at the wedding they decided, we don't really want to get married, we don't really care.
But everybody drink and eat and let's have a fun time. So their wedding turned into a party, and that's where rollin's increased.
And it was Jennifer Esposito.
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, Oh that's fabulous. So are they together then?
Yeah, they're together now, Finn.
So everybody's settling down at the sixteenth precincts.
Oh my gosh, after twenty three years. You should start.
Nesting after twenty three years. Seriously, that's so funny.
It's kind of amazing that that. And I love that the original is back the mother Ship, mostly because I've never worked on it and I'd love to.
But oh yeah, they should bring you in on the mother Ship for sure.
Yeah, there you go.
It could be somebody different.
But yeah, why not?
But or the new da Oh, I can't see you as a husband that they think that you did it but you didn't do it.
I could see that for out.
Oh yeah, absolutely, let's do that. Let's get that wrong. Oh and uh. The other thing I remember about that episode so well was it started off with the speech by Vice President Biden and addressing something that Marishka works in her Joyful Heart Foundation's that's the name, and they do a lot of work in ending the backlog, and I thought that was very cool. It worked out great.
Yeah, so we have had a lot of listeners be like, do this episode and get Biden. We're like, I don't think that's gonna yeah.
Well, well when I got the call, I was doing podcasts.
Wait, when I got the call to do this, I was like, so I beat out Joe bid nice, I'll take that. So you just burst my bubble.
No, he was never even a thought for us. What would he even say? I went on and I made a speech that would be a pretty boring interview.
This is much better.
Well, I don't know the yes. But another favorite thing I remember these memories, Yes, let me that, but the call sheet on that day had marishka Ice, Kelly Peter, Vice President Biden, and John Buchanan on you. I was like this, I'm keeping this.
Yeah, yeah, that's a framer. Yeah, I'm so glad you took it. Caara actually made fun of me.
I always ask people like, oh, did you steal something from set or a memory or something, And you're the first person and you took the call sheet, and I am so happy.
I think I did. I'm sure I did.
I know.
I took a picture of it at the very end.
Yeah, it's in the memory box somewhere. I'm sure.
Yeah. Absolutely. It's like, okay, well, if I'm below on the cast list, I think rawl was on there too. You know, if I'm below on the cast list, just below Vice President Biden, then I'm doing okay. Yeah.
We've had a couple of like not villainous, but you know, people that are not as beloved characters, such as John Buchanan on our podcast lately, and I feel like we're really showing the real side of these.
Actors so people can stop screaming at them in the streets.
And I'm I think we're doing a service.
This is key. Let's get that word out there. But again, it's almost always, you know, on the Twitter it's I want to push you off the top of the building. I want to get you with my truck if I ever see Buchanan in the street, you know, that sort of thing.
Like it's just the kind of thing that would never even occur me to know. But my mom's like that, like she can't look at Willem Defoe. She does not trust him, she wants nothing.
To do with him.
It's like a mom.
Yeah, but you changed your Twitter bio.
You U still have a really funny one that was like I played the character you love to hate, but it was like a fun little riddle you had, but you changed.
Yeah.
I don't remember the riddle, but it was cute. I remember being excited.
Thank you. I think, yeah, well it was when you play the guy that people love to hate. That's what I think it meant. Yeah, so you're saying I should put it back. No, no, you do you?
Oh my gosh, he is so I cannot believe that was his first podcast. I know that he's gonna be hooked now. And he follows us personally on the ground.
Yea.
And it was just like an honor to be able to be with our like the main one of the main defense attorney is one of the most iconic, like hated characters of this series.
So yeah, and this is probably like this is probably like a little bit like feels like a stupid thing to say, but I almost like respect people's acting so much more when I see how opposite of their character they are in real life. Like he's like a make your skin crawl asshole on that show, and he's just like a teddy bear of a man in real life, and I'm just like, wow, you really transform into a different person completely, you know.
Yeah, So he loves his kids, he loves the arts, he loves DC and honestly, yeah, thank you.
And a fun name, what's Delaney? Never heard of it?
Delaney william I mean that I don't know for that means that sounds like a Southern like a Southern aristocrat, Delaney Williams, But I don't know, Susan incredible, Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for coming on, Delaney. And uh, this post mortem of Making a Rapist one of the most aggressive episodes we've covered in a while.
In terms of violence and burning. Yeah, but by the time.
There's a burning, it it elevates the episode to horrific. There's no casual burnings, yeah, except in what's the one where the pregnancy packed one? There was a burned band, but that that episode's pretty funny anyways, there was a pregnancy, there was a burning. Yes, remember there's like a guy burning yes streets. Yes, And so that's kind of silly in terms of like that one was a little I guess that was a funny burn.
I mean it was kind of a hilarious burning a live moment.
Yeah, I guess.
Like what we learned from this episode is like I really wish the cops would do a better job sometimes because these wrongfully convicted people are possibly being turned into more hardened criminals when they're incarcerated for you know, decades.
That's why I have such a hard I'm giving just blanket respect to a profession or a type of person because we're all like no one likes to work right in general, or like a lot of people are bad at their jobs.
So that's why I don't like it when it's.
Like you're a police, you're the army, you're a doctor, you're the best, you're the best, you're a hero, and it's like no We're all just people and this is just a job. And some of these motherfuckers just won't investigate further, or they don't want to work together, and they want to go home and eat dinner and watch football, and like we have to remember that when we would just want to give blanket respect to these people. Yeah, and for me, like, I.
Also learned a lot about like the adolescent interrogation tactics are so unethical in my opinion, Like I understand you think that this kid might be part of like a huge murder, but like he's sixteen years old, he should have his parent with him, he should have a lawyer with him, and he has below average intelligence. You're taking advantage of that. Like it's it's like, I don't know,
I just think that's pretty gross. And I really hope that Brendan Dacy gets to see freedom again in his lifetime, because I don't know, I don't think he had anything to do with it. Steven Avery, on the other hand, you know, I'm sure we'll get our I'm sure we'll get our comments.
Also, you should just eliminate junk yards. You cannot have a junk yard or a car lot, or it seems.
Like a lot of trouble happens, so no more do seem so ominous, Like I think it's the car crusher too. That's like it feels like almost the same as like a cement like when there's someone hides a body in like the cement base of a building or something like that. It's like, yeah, you're never going to see this body again, like we're pulverizing it.
Like speaking of junk yards.
The reason it's so fresh in my head, I restarted on a plane and now I'm going to continue it casually. Now I'm not gonna but I'm going to rewatch Breaking Bad.
Ah.
So there is a junk yard murder, crazy scene, Yes, I recall. That's wild that you recall because this came out like over a decade ago and it was in season one, so you know it's a crazy scene.
When fucking Cara remembers that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because my brain has mostly melted away with children, but you know, I do remember that scene and Breaking Bad a lot of it sticks in my head. It was really such a huge show and like so amazing in television.
It changed the game.
You know, there's songs from Breaking Bad that I like have on playlists really, but I love Yes. Yeah, there's a TV on the radio song called DMZ that's in an amazing scene of Breaking Bad, and I like love listening to it. It's like a very like intense Walter White song. I just love Breaking Bad. That's the show I would rewatch if I didn't have twenty seasons of different television waiting on my DVR for me.
Right now, I know it is Atlanta just started again.
I know you mentioned.
You've mentioned Atlanta so many times. I've never wonted watch it.
Oh sorry, I'll stop mentioning it. I keep forgetting you.
I keep bringing up conn Air, so you can keep bringing that is, you can keep bringing up at Lama.
Stop bringing up conn Air. No, but Breaking Bad is.
Now that you know everything, it's even more genius to see all these little moments and oh that's uh, there we go.
That's the beginning of that.
That's what this proves that they're showing this, they're doing that, and so it's even more impressive watching it the second time and like seeing all these little moments of character development.
Well, also, I do one of the series I do have is like the most recent two seasons of Better called Soler on my DVR because I wanted to stay in the Breaking Bad universe. Although it's a very different show. I don't know if you would be into it. And I do want to say a quick thank you to the listeners that have been tagging me and messaging me about the fact that there is a new show coming out called Bosh Legacy.
It's like a new season of Bosh.
It's like on the Roku channel, or it's on like imdbast channelers, it's on some random channel, but I think I can watch it streaming somewhere and it's like it's like Bosh and his daughter like living their law enforcement lives like, but they're very different because I think she becomes a cop or something.
I don't remember.
I don't actually know, but it's it's this like new Bosh that everyone's been letting me know about, and I'm definitely going to dive in at some point.
Well, I want to watch El Camino after because I never watched that.
What is that?
That's the after Breaking Bad?
I get so, oh it was a movie, but it's straight up someone's explaining it to me. It's just like what happens to Jesse Pinkman after that final episode, like you just get to watch him for two.
Hours and it's just a movie.
Okay, KOVI about Pinkman post that show.
I remember people were just calling it the breaking Bad movie, so I think I forgot that it was called.
But okay, that.
Sounds fun and yeah whatever, tell us cool things are happening and the JK or a nightmare. But this episode, the justice system is flawed. And that's another thing that bothers me about, just like rape culture in general is like this idea, like we know the justice system is flawed, we know rich people get away with crimes, we know it is racist, we know all this, But as soon as it's rape, it's well due process, we got to
trust the laws and it's ye. But for everything else, you say that it's terrible and then you know it's.
Just like kind of annoying.
Yeah.
Well, that segue is kind of into our what would Sister Peg do for this week, which is our weekly segment where we give you guys an article, a book, an organization something to give you more information, or like a charity you can donate to just to get more information and flesh out like the topic that we covered today, and this week, we're going to highlight the Center on Wrongful Convictions of Youth, and that is the legal firm
that is representing Brendan Dacy's case. The CWCY is a nonprofit legal clinic that represents children and teenagers who have been convicted of crimes they didn't commit. There's literally so much information out there about how cops can get false confessions from people all the time, and then when you lower their age to teens and adolescents, it's just like wild that some of these confessions can even be admissible.
So this organization spearhads national efforts to drive criminal justice reforms that will prevent children from making unreliable statements and coerced statements during police interrogations. So CWCY and their sister project, which is the Center on Wrongful Convictions, have exonerated more than fifty people. So if you guys want to learn more about them or donate, you can check out the link in our show notes. It's way too long for me to read on the podcast.
Thank you for that.
Next week we'll be covering Military Justice. Another complicated, depressing, terrible episode JK very good, but Military Justice Season fifteen, Episode eight Watch with us, Hulu, Peacock and anywhere USVU. Thank you so much for listening to us.
See you next week.
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