Limitations w/ Jenny Bacon

Hey, that's messed up listeners.

Before we get into the episode, obviously, we do need to talk about June twenty fourth, twenty twenty two, the Supreme courp decided to overturn Roe v.

Wade, and it's fucking horrible.

Yeah, this decision has eliminated the opportunity for women to have safe and legal abortions. I don't believe abortions will stop, they will just not be safe and legal in many places. And we believe that everyone should have this freedom of choice. If you've ever listened to this podcast, you know that we're extremely pro choice and ending a pregnancy is a person's personal choice between them and their doctor.

This decision is going to have such horrific consequences for individual health and safety, and it could also have harsh repercussions for other decisions in the future. Restricting access to comprehensive reproductive care, including abortion, threatens the health and independence of all Americans.

So if you guys want to learn more, please check out Choice dot CRD dot That's choice dot c r D dot co. And if you're able to support others, please consider donating to abortion funds. We actually have many posted and we will actually We're going to start a highlight in our Instagram stories where you can find tons of abortion funds that we're going to be linking to.

Yeah, speak up, take care, spread the word take care of yourselves, and you know, have empathy for others.

Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

These are our stories dot done.

Hey, it's that's messed up an SVU podcast. I'm Liza Traeger.

And I am Kara Klank and you guys, I mean hopefully you know, we're in the eighties in terms of numbers of this podcast. And we do an episode of SVU. We do a true crime it's based on, we do a celebrity you know, and then before that we sort of chit chat a little bit and just tell you what's going on with us.

Yeah.

But maybe someone just is obsessed with limitations and this is their first one.

Yeah, I need, we really need to impress them. We do there, Like I wish there was a recap of an episode of television from twenty three years ago. Yeah, listen.

Also, I was talking to some people when we were in San Francisco and they're like, yeah, but so many people watch us for you, and I go, yeah, but a lot of them like love the police and hate our opinions. So yeah, a lot of them, I think, join in and go you know, yeah, you can tell yeah, and then they go write a thing. I actually have not checked any of our reviews, and probably i'd want to say eight months. Oh, I haven't looked in a long time. But that's pretty good for you. I usually

I used to check them out every few weeks, but now I don't.

You're being generous to yourself. I think.

I really haven't looked in. I haven't looked at least a month, at least maybe two. Yeah. So if you're writing us a review and you're here to see if I'm going to respond to it, I'm not. I mean a bad one. If it's a good one, thank you so much.

We appreciate it.

Oh my god, I know this is going to be so far in the future, and I'm sorry about the weird timeness, but this was also from last episode. This is nuts, but they are doing a Drag Race All Stars episode where they have to do their own TRL segment. I know, I'm excited. It's it, you've already seen it. We'll talk about it next time. But I cannot fucking wait right up your alley.

As we just talked last episode about how Lisa brutalized her parents' home in order to get to a TRL video for Pierre.

I just like my age coincided with the best era of pop music that's ever existed, and it just like has a whole on me that will never go away.

And that's so.

So did you know that My career at MTV started when I started working on a show called The Seven that was existed for nine months in twenty ten, and it was it was them kind of trying to bring TRL back. Not as much music video stuff and no in studio audience, but it was in the TRL studio. So I was in the TRL studio like every day.

For nine months. I was like the social media person and yeah, it was did you look out the window? Yeah all the time.

Oh and there was one cool moment where we did wait, this was a separate thing when I worked at MTV News. Later we had a concert where Lady Gaga was announcing it was a premiere of one of her videos.

So they did it TRL style.

They're like, we're going to premiere her video, and I honestly cannot tell you which video it was, but they had to shut down times.

They're going to come for you the monsters. Oh, I thought, I don't know why. I heard Maria Mariah Carey's are the lamps? No, I heard Maria carry this whole time. That's what I was envisioning.

Oh no, Lady Gaga. Did I say Mariah carry? No? I just heard something different. Oh okay, what is it?

A mandala effect? Like I just had something different and attached to it.

Barren Steam bears, Yeah, I yeah, it was Lady Gaga. And so I had the TRL experience where it was like full audience of people dressed as in Gaga like outfits, full time square shut down Lady Gaga.

Sway the whole, the whole deal. I think I've told you this story. I told you. Sway told me he was nervous.

No, So Sway goes, I'm in the elevator with Sway and I'm like, how you doing? And he goes, I'm nervous, Like Lady Gaga and I go sway, your sway, Lady Gaga's probably been watching you since she was sixteen years old, Like, do not worry about it? And he was like, yeah, I guess they didn't think about.

It that way. And then afterwards he told me he goes that really helped me. Thank you for saying that to me.

Oh my god, that's incredible.

Yeah.

I was like I just was like, sway, you've been around, like you've been in my life. Like I just feel like tangentially through MTV and everything like forever, like Lady gagaz gooped to be meeting you, Like why are you like so nervous? You know, because it was like a huge thing. It was a very trl throwback. No, but that a Parna has done something like that for me. A partner, non Charla. She's a very successful person and all very funny girl friend.

Yeah, she is.

The teen horse and BoJack Horseman. She's also herself and lots of things. But I love her as the little horse that I don't know why I can't remember her name. So I was to do it the first year of Clusterfest. I was doing that, but I didn't realize how big of a deal. It was gonna be like I just didn't realize. So I was at my friend Josie's house, having some cocktails, smoking some weed, and I was hosting a six o'clock show or something, and I was like, okay, whatever.

Oh my god, I hate this.

I'm like sweating. It's like a minute by minute it's counting. I'm like trying to run to this venue. I show up. It's it's the arena. It seats ten thousand. There's like six to eight thousand people in there. I'm like dripping sweat running. I make it right on time, and Aparna just said, pretend like it's the cellar. And then I walked on stage and it was like a Parna just like did everything like yeah, just said the right thing at the right moment.

Yeah, And I was.

Able to host and like relax, and I think about a partner a lot when I'm like about to be stressed.

I think I'd like to think that Sway thinks about me a lot.

Oh, I one hundred percent. I mean that's what led me to think of the story. You truly change. You were responsible for sweating, not for his performance. He could have been like nervous and weird and not performed at the level. Sometimes you just need a good pep Yeah, it's like I had a good Julia gave me a good talking too. Remember after my friend was being not nice? Yeah, yes, like the best pep talk off my life. And I was like, you're right, I don't know, it just feels nice.

Yeah, love a good ever talk. What we're doing?

Yeah, pep talk times like remember the Titans, Like live it out in little moments throughout your day. Yeah, Okay, this is the bad date. So it's not even oh my god anymore.

Wait a minute, Wait a minute.

You cannot just launch into it like this, Okay, everybody. We Lisa teased a bad date like maybe two months ago on the podcast that she had a bad date and then was like, I'll tell you guys, next week and then never did and people have written us messages where's the.

Bad day matter?

Like it was just like in that moment, it was like, oh my god, this just happened.

And then now it's like I could care. Like it was just you know, like yeah.

Now it's yeah, but everybody has been asking us at live show, so now finally we're going to hear about it, and I'm excited.

Yeah.

It was just like a tender moment.

I was looking for, I would say, a fun hookup, and this person was meeting me in the hotel lobby bar and when I met him, like I just need to be complimented or what am I doing here? So I didn't get a compliment, didn't love it, but I could, you know, move past that. And then I had to buy my own drinks, so I was like, this is kind of a nightmare. And then I got tipsy and I was like talking myself into liking this person that

But weren't.

Things were going okay right at that point.

Then yeah, I talk to myself and so yeah, we were like chatting to it okay, but he was like annoying for sure, Like I did like after what happened at the end, like you put all the pieces together Memento style, you know what I mean. Like I would say I like this movie, like that's a dumb movie because of this and that and that, and it was just like okay, yeah, I still like, what do you talk? Don't talk about me. I'm like, truly, I don't know.

Oh my god. It all came running back.

I was like, oh, you hate that this because he kept being like, so you do it for money? Like and so I go, what does that have to do? He goes, it's a bit. Why don't you get the bit like if you're a comedian, like it's and I go all right, and he's and then he went into this long tirade about like it's like being Will Smith you I and like censorship started quoting Chris Rock and it's like I've fought with Chris Rock, like he took

Oh?

By god?

I didn't have anything to prove.

I was just like what And he's like, uh, censorship as fucked. You have to allow all jokes or no jokes. I'm like, we're not instage. I don't care what you think. I'm like, I don't need this dynamic in my life. I'm like, you're not not.

Allowing a joke.

It's not funny, it's not a joke, Like, oh my god, honestly, it's really it's a nag.

He's trying. He was trying to nag you, to throw you off. Oh yeah.

So then he went did I just fuck this up? And I went yeah, and then I went inside and then it was like whatever. But and then it was pissed because I smoked weed and then I was too high to kind of do anything else. But so it was just so fucking annoying, and I know this type of parton, and it was just like I kept like allowing things to happen. And then at the end it was like, of course you're a weird little incel.

I don't know.

That's like, yeah, mad about my life because you have a roommate.

I went on a double date with Jared's friend, him and his wife, and he convinced me for like half an hour that he had never tried to taco before and like, okay, that's kind of funny.

Like after a half an.

Hour, I was like, wait you seriously, He's like I live in Canada, like we just tacos are not as readily available, Like I just have never tried tacos before.

That's like a stupid bit.

Of like just kidding, Ah, gotcha, that's like dumb and stupid and like a funny joke, not like hi, everything about you and this interaction is like not going great for me.

Jk.

Like it's just not funny, Like you cannot explain to me how that's funny.

Well, lying isn't a joke.

And that's what I think a lot of people who think they're sarcastic or funny think, because he also was trying to convince me that he had like a Sopranos tattoo on his butt and then he didn't.

And it's like okay, but what lying is not here?

I don't get it, Like I'm not a cynic. I don't like lies. I don't really improve in life, like I'm not going with your bits. Okay, have you had a taco or not? I don't care about what you're about to do like I don't need this bit. I don't need it, like even with gay, Like when we're playing at Telestrations, there's one group of friends, my friend from her friends like to do little joke pictures and

I don't know.

Yeah, I hear you as grounded as possible is my level of living. And I don't need to be tricked and that you're not into this.

It's like okay, yeah, but.

It's kind of when I went on that date with the girl who came to my house and the first thing she said, she goes, that's what you decided to wear, And I was like, are we trying to fuck or what?

Like?

Why are you not nice to me? I just don't understand it. I don't get it.

No, you gotta give a call.

I mean you got I give a compliment just to a friend I see off like after a while, like great to see you.

You look great? You know, like I like this, I like that, Like I like your bracelet whatever, you know.

I just don't I just don't understand a world where you wouldn't be nice to the person you're trying to have sex with.

Yeah, I just that's the thing.

The entire thing of the pickup artist is against that. It's like, throw a woman off their guard, nag them, make them feel like they are lucky to have you. Like this kind of shit, you know, like where it's not about complimenting or being nice to the person you want to fuck.

It's crazy, You're right. I don't know. I just don't find it.

That guy.

I hope he listens to the pod. No, yeah, I don't know. He's managing a nerd rapper.

I don't know. I don't know what his life is. But was so annoyed.

Oh my god. Well I'm glad everybody finally got the fucking story. I know, but it's so antyclic.

No, we need the whole All of our dick wolf babies can send that man bad energy now, it's worth it.

Yeah, it was just weird. It's like I couldn't have been more of a sure thing, Like you're meeting in my hotel.

Bar, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, like it's like sex is.

An elevator ride away, you stupid dumba I'm just like so confused that like all the behavior that had happened.

But you know, it's the Internet, It's the wild West. It is oh man.

Sometimes I I'm sad that I never really got to do Tinder, and other times I'm like, maybe it's for the best.

Yeah, I don't know.

It's like I think it's fun when you're on vacation, and then it's like, yeah, I don't know, a nightmare if you're where you're living. That's how I feel. Yeah, like in London, it's like eh, and then when you're in la it's like.

Yeah, yeah, well what do you think We just get started? Get into today episode? We have an episode an early guy this week.

Oh my god. Yeah, season one. I demanded this one. I don't know why, I just I demanded it. I remember sending an email being like we have to do it, and I'm glad to get it.

It is good.

It's a good one. We have a fun guest and let's just get going. Guys, stay where you are. So here we are back in season one, episode fourteen, A very pre nine to eleven date of February eleventh, two thousand is when this episode came out.

It's called limitations. I don't even know if I said that already.

Limitations And we open on a map and we hear this man talking about how there's been a bunch of robberies by the same guy with no arrest, and then Cam returns to Isaiah Whitlock junior legend, who I guess people know from the Wire. I don't because I've never seen the wire. Sadly you know him, Oh my god, veep like he's been a fifth Hour. He's been on six episodes of his playing all different kinds of roles. We want them on the pod. If you know, Isaiah,

It's like a sorority hazing.

It's truly like, yeah, it's like get on your fanciest outfit.

We're gonna scream at you in front of everyone. That is what it is.

So I guess in a way like it is a good thing to have because it keeps police accountable and like calls out mistakes. But it always feels like on SVU they're just like find the rapist by tomorrow at noon or you're all fired, and it's like, okay, like it's not that easy, and the SVU guys are always like, we're actually trying quite hard. But anyway, Isaiah Whitlock is going, yeah, I'm sorry, we made a mistake because they didn't connect all these robberies to each other until it was like

It's like brutal.

It feels like it's at the end of the sorority thing and they're like you're cut, like you're not joining like so he kind of just gets up tail between his legs leaves. You see Benson and Stabler sitting in the gallery with Daddy Craigan, and Benson has a look on her face like goo and Craigs is up next, and they he says good morning, so apparently it's morning in this room, but the NYPD cannot afford light bulbs or windows. The room is dark. There is a seance

Had read your circular, you would know. And so I guess the circular is like a newsletter that the cops send out and expect everyone to read right away.

I imagine a lot of spelling errors and weird commas I feel like, and Craig bar newsletter.

Yeah, yeah, there's like an eagle clip art at the top of it, Like.

Sure miss the word art options from Microsoft word I wish it had. I wish Google slides had that fun those fun words. I like the rainbows and the thing like the yeah.

The turquoise. It looked like it was popping forward, Like I missed those.

Yeah, you have to go find your own PMNG files now it's annoying. But so the guy goes with, you had read your circular, which I imagine yeahs like the Trader Joe's Fearless Flyer or whatever it's called, then you would know that this is newly identified rape pattern four nineteen ninety five. And Craigan's like, well, I was in homicide in nineteen ninety five, and he's like, this is still your case, homeboy, Like you better figure it out.

Of this episode. So I thought that was interesting.

So under this new law, the statute of limitations for reporting second degree rape increases to twenty years and third degree rape increases to ten years. Previously both were five years. And then there is I believe, no statute of limitations for rape one. So I was just curious about the degrees and I look that up too. So rape in the third degree is just general non consensual sex. In the second degree it is when it happens with someone who is less than fifteen or incapable of consenting due

So that's why a lot of them.

Are first degree in SVU because someone's usually at knife point or gunpoint or something like that, so there's an implied threat of violence or a real threat of violence. Or the victim is less than thirteen years old. And then it says or less than eleven years old if the alleged rapist is a minor, so that's rape one.

That's the first degree.

And so yeah, this new law is great because it extends it for most cases, and the statute of limitations for incests and the first degree extends to twenty years and it's great, But in this episode the statute is five years. So it's this is one of those count down, running against the clock episodes that we love slash hating.

I know, but I just wish I could be there in the meeting when they all decided to make a limit, Like that's what is confusing to me, Like, I just don't even understand how you would why and how you would do this.

Well, they talk about it in this episode. They talk about it later and they say it's like so that you know, American citizens don't walk around for inordinate amount of time, worried that the government can bring charges against them whenever they want. I think it's like to prevent government they I think they it's implied that it's like to prevent abuse of the system or something.

But this was also.

Before a lot of DNA and medical like scientific breakthroughs had happened, so people thought.

Of rape a lot, as he said.

She said, and I'm sure the reason that there's a statute of limitations is because it's like, well, you can't just let a woman ruin your life after ten years, like you know, it's bullshit, It's complete bullshit. But yeah, that is what they try to address it in this episode, like it's a constant, usual thing.

But anyway, in this episode, we're dealing with five years.

The commissioner asked Craig and if he's spoken to any of these victims, and he's like, no, I literally, you just told me about the pattern. And he says, well, today's your lucky day because one.

Of them is here.

And then the back doors of the comstat meeting open and this absolute boss bitch with a bumpet walks in like she owns the place, struts to the front, turns around like she's about to own the whole debate team. And her name is Victoria Kraft and she testifies about her rape in nineteen ninety five when a man broke into her apartment, stripped, got into bed with her, raped her, maced her, and then left and she notified police.

Is like, such overkill. It's like you already did the rape.

What do you make now for I think it's Nichoh yeah, maybe so they can't go after I don't know, I

And uh.

He hands Jeffries the file on another victim named Jennifer Neil and tells Benson and Stabler to take the other two victims so they don't have an ID on the DNA. So they're just gonna call him John Doe one twenty one and his as we've as we've heard from Vicky breaking in getting into bed with the women. When they wake up, his faces covered with a stocking, attacks them,

Like this is definitely a TV.

Show to think that cops are going to solve a cold case in a day or even four days, but you know he was gonna try. So now we're in the apartment of Lois Crean. She is like this mousey little brunette who seems very like Cage and shy, and she's played by I believe it's pronounced Shawna se A na Shauna Kofo ed well, I don't know. I'm sorry, Shawna. I'm butchering your name in all ways. And she still actually works a lot and was a recurring on clause, but I cannot remember her character at all.

But clauses on. That was like my favorite thing that.

If you miss if you missed the video of me getting onto the plane, I was trying to show how I always walk past Lisa in first class and the minute this woman got out of the way so I could see Lisa with my camera, Lisa goes clauses on.

It was great.

So I think I watched Insecure on that flight and I watched so.

It just it is good. It's just you don't You're not able.

To get the full depth of how good a show is when you have to wait week after week, like the binge is the way to really appreciate it. And I watched it four in a row, and it's like yes, or two in a row or whatever. And that's what I'm gonna do with Hacks, Like I can't wait. I know, I just need to sit down and watch all the hacks.

Yeah, and then I'm halfway through the first episode, and I'm like, I need to just sit when I have time.

It's gonna be an incredible day.

I mean, if my kids could stop getting diseases for one second, that would be great.

I would love to watch hacks. So this woman.

Lois is talking to Benson and Stabler and she looks terrified, like her like like body language is terror one oh one, and she's asking they're asking her like, how did the guy leave? It doesn't really say in your report how he left. And she's like, great question, I don't remember. And then they show her a floor plan and she's like, oh, yeah, in my old apartment, you had to go through the bathroom to get to the bedroom. I'm like that so New York, like just go past a toilet to get

She straightened out hair right, like yeah, yeah.

Exactly, and she's like still recording. She was just on season twenty three, so she's still in the SVU fam. And anyway, she's like headed down the hallway with a big ass filebox and some extra files that just won't fit in, and Craigan's just like begging her to get a judge to issue a warrant for this guy based on DNA instead of name, and she's like, oh, the Wisconsin maneuver, Like everyone keeps talking about Wisconsin again.

I refuse to look it up. We don't have precedent.

And Craigan is like, be the president you want to see in the world, Like he is like, let's we could start this in New York if you want it, and she's like, dude, that's a lot of legal work. And he's like, okay, how about if this guy, this rapist is your next cab driver, Like he just fully scare tactics her, and she's like, you're right, I don't want to get raped in a cab, and so she takes the paperwork and gives him the like fuck, I

She just has this.

Very calm way of speaking and in my mind she's the thumbnail of this episode, whether or not she's the thumbnail for real on Hulu.

Well.

Also, these three victims are very like the Three Little Pigs and the Big Bad Wolf, Like they each have very specific personalities. Yes, like the Brunette is definitely like her house is made of straw, she's a mess, and that I don't know.

I can't decide the other two, but I think definitely Victoria's one is.

Made out of bricks because she's like the fucking boss bitch who was like threatening people to take them down. Yes, but is that really the strongest That's what I'm oh, you're right, like, is she actually would because it's a front. She's not healed.

I might be giving something what I'm sorry, Okay, who knows of this healed?

But yeah, we know nothing yet.

So Jennifer Neil's telling them about her rape and saying it was the worst moment of her life, but that wasn't all. What happened after that changed my life.

She says.

The love and support she received after her attack reaffirmed her faith in humanity. She felt suicidal, and the people in her life took care of her. She realized she was part of a community. And then they tell her we're reopening the case because there were two other victims, like we've connected them now through DNA, And she's like, oh okay, and they're like, can you tell us anything, And she's like, I mean, here's what I told the other cops. This guy knew my dog's name, he knew

She doesn't seem like she's not pressed. Yes, exactly.

So back to Frantic Kraigan accosting people in courthouses. He and the Redhead are chasing down Judge Allan Riddanore, who has been on thirteen ups of SVU, seasons one through ten. He's got the bald top hair in the big back and then the hair in the back and then the big bushy mustache and he's like always kind of very sarcastic and funny. And I did see that he actually passed away in twenty seventeen. So rip to Harvey Atkin,

At least it's not a no. Right. That's good.

So now Benson and Stabler are back talking to Victoria Kraft, the woman we met at the Comstown meeting, and she was never impressed with her original detective. She said they were neither the best nor the brightest. She hired a private investigator and hands them over the files.

She's like, I wanted someone who answered to me.

And she said, well, he discovered that the security of my building was bad, so I am suing them. And then there's this guy on a bike and the neighbor saw a kid speed away on a bike. That's a bit a tidbit that comes out of this file from the private investigator. So now we've instantly, in hours, tracked down that neighbor who five years ago saw a guy speed away on a bike.

Very SVU.

They're talking to him outside. He knows exactly where he was five years earlier. He goes, I was outside smoking a butt. And I really just love that because when I smoked, that's always what we called it.

We would always be like, do you want to go outside and smoke a butt?

Like we constantly, like my sister and I would be like, oh my god, my sister and I would be like, oh my god, I asked so many bees last night, like we would just the way we always talked about smoking butts. Yeah, I don't know why that was my vernacular. So this man kindred spirits. So he saw a man on a bike speeding away from the building the night of the attack. And the guy goes, oh, yeah, that bike. It's this kind of bike with the reflectorized lime green paint.

And so he is rejecting the request for the warrant.

But he is also passed the paperwork already onto an appellet judge because he said, if my decision is reversed, I want it to be done soon enough that you guys can get some good out of it. So would can you believe a bureaucratic position he's actually trying to push things through.

A little bit quicker. Yeah, but why don't you just rule on that? Like that's what's annoying.

It's like, I'm going to rule on this, but hopefully it'll get overturned. And it's like, you have the power.

But I think it's because appellet courts have like a different power. Like I think it's like he has to just follow the law, and I think that appellate judges maybe are able to I mean, all of our lawyer people are going to write it and be like, carry, you're full of shit. I just got the impression that maybe an impellate judge could bend like laws more or like constitutions or something. So I have no idea, but it is a great question. Why didn't you just say yes?

Tell us, please law people.

So Victoria, here's what it's been denied and runs out of the courtroom.

She's upset.

Olivia goes after her and she's like, we're gonna appeal. It's gonna be okay, and Victoria is like, no, fuck you, it's not gonna be okay. I'm pissed you waited five years to do this hot, half cocked legal maneuver, she says, And then she's like, I endured everything, the rape exam, the intimate details of my life that I gave you, and I thought I was gonna get some help, but today you guys just said to me again, sorry, Vicky, you got raped and we're not going to do jack

I think you know what the first was well harsh.

Svu monologues for a thousand, Alex okay, top.

Of AC two.

It's a new day in the workroom. Vicky's case has expired.

But they're funny, we need to do that.

I hate saying the precinct back in the squad room.

It's the workroom. Oh my god, they're back in the workroom.

Well, it's like, truly, it's sunny day. Everyone's wearing different clothes. It's the next day. And so Vicky's case has expired, like you know, he crosses it off on the list of ones that they can still work on. But there's still two days on low Us case and three days on Jennifer's case. So this is yeah, like the pressure is mounting. Benson points out that Victoria can still testify at the trial for one of the other rape victims under Molino.

So I look up Malino, of course, and that is basically.

Normally, evidence of a prior wrongdoing of crimes is not admissible, but in the Malino rule, or the Molino exception it's sometimes called, it is allowed if it's more probative than prejudicial, to prove, for example, motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, common scheme or plan, knowledge, identity, absence of mistake or accident or conduct that is inextricably interwoven with the charged ax.

Okay, then what is not Molino? It seems like it's everything.

I think it's like you can't just be like like if there's a rape, you can't just be like, well, one time in high school, this guy pinched my butt. Like that doesn't really like that doesn't really lead like to a pattern. This is like more of a specific pattern because the guy had the same exact m can talk about like crimes that have similar ems, So I guess this would count as Malino, and Munch calls Munch is pissed. He calls Malono another right wing and run

And like, I think.

He's arguing this because he's like, look back in the day, I used to be a thorn in the government's side. He probably protested Vietnam. He probably did a bunch of shit and got arrested for some civil disobedience and He's like, I'm glad that there are laws that protect the government from just capriciously arresting me, which is very much how conspiracy theorists work and just about you. But it's also not capricious, like Jeffries goes, there's no capricious arrest here.

Yeah, but he might be like a libertarian vibe.

Yeah, that's what That's kind of what I was trying to say, more a libertarian more fuck the government, get off my lawn. Yeah, so don't tread on me flag on his pickup truck.

Absolutely, Munch okay, And.

So Craigan's like all right, let's all get back to work, like, as you know, we have five minutes to finish this case. Sabler wants to go visit all the old cops who worked on these cases, and Munch is like, oh, yeah, great, it'll be like seeing the old SVU alumni association.

Like.

So they go and they talk to a female detective who remembers the case being really frustrating. She was like, there were no leads. One of it was one of the reasons I transferred. And they're like, oh, because it was like frustrating, and she was like no, because Vicki Kraft sued me and my partner for dereliction of duty and so it like she's like it all got handled. Like I like, it sounds like, you know, internal affairs

And her first name was Jojo.

And he was like, nobody sees what we see and it was just like you could just tell this guy was like I've been touched by what I've seen on when I worked in SVU. So at the cop bar, uh, we are talking to this asshole cop and he's like, sex crimes detectives are just garbage collectors, do your two years and get out, and Olivia's like, okay, cool. Twenty three years later and then this guy is played by John Doman, who is booked and blessed.

Baby.

He is in so much shit. He was in Trial of the Chicago Seven. He's in the new show City on a Hill with our buddy Delaney Williams's.

He was in the Affair Gotham.

But he's also been on five episodes of SBU, including Liza's least favorite episode Shaherazade, where he plays Mike Molinax. And I remember, you know that episode with Brian Dennehy. Yeah, I think Mike Mollinax is like a main he's the main guy. Like he's the guy that Paget like thinks is her dad or whatever. But like this is you know, he's in a that big episode. So I know this guy, but I don't know if I just know him from

I actually lived a very sheltered life, and I didn't know people drank milk with their dinner until I went to college in Iowa and I was like, I need to get out of here, like I don't belong here.

Oh really, what did you drink with dinner? Usually water?

I don't know, water, juice like bubbly stuff, mineral, I don't know I don't, but definitely not.

Early milk, only milk, and we like had to finish.

But you're kind of jewy. I don't understand. Did you guys not eat meat? Like I just would never want no, we ate me.

It was just like it was just like a thing that my parents' parents probably told them, so they were just doing to us, like there's no reason behind us.

It's the got milk at yeah, it's the Yeah, it's like the.

Milk mustaches, milk does a body good, all that bullshit, Like we just had to drink milk, like Rosy drinks milk. Now I offer it to her, but like I'm like, if you don't want it, you don't have.

To have that's ahay, that's a tiny child allowed no no.

But they say that even after like two or three, like the benefits of cow's milk is like their bones are doing okay, like you know, they're getting calcium from cheese and other things. Like you don't have to like be pumping milk down their throats like the way we did when we were kids or not you but me. So it it's just disgusting to see this man drinking a glass of milk like full nighttime glass of milk.

Well you're gonna love this.

So, you know, my nephew, the Littlest Meet had nephew went to camp and then when they arrive, they write a letter and it gets scanned and sent to the parents like technology whatever, But they write the letter, and all his letters said was I forgot my protein powder.

Please send it. You're not allowed to bring protein powder to my camp. Really, you can't bring anything like extra to eat or anything like that.

Yeah, I wonder. I mean his grandma runs the camp. I don't know what to tell you.

Oh wow, Okay, he's in the buck with his cousin.

So anyway, there's absolutely no way in hell that this man at his age is handling dairy well. And I'm just like really sickened by watching him drink a full glass of milk. But that's also a funny add to his character because he's so terrible.

Well.

Yeah, I'm saying at a friend's house a couple nights ago and they offered me a white Russian and I was like, are you out of your fucking mind?

I've never had a white Russian for that reason, but people say they're good.

I don't know.

I just have never felt like drinking milk when I'm out to like drink, I don't know, and I'm a big big Lebowski fan.

I just haven't had a white Russian.

So Stabler breaks the news to this asshole that hey, by the way, that rapist was a cereal so she didn't make it up and it's real and he did it to two other women that we know of. And the guy goes, so, I made a mistake. Let me buy you a drink. And it's like, what a fucking shot of two percent? You fucking psycho. Anyway, Benson storms away from the table.

She hates this.

Man, as do I, and then we are smash cut non just kidding. We cut to the appellate hearing for the warrant, and the judge there is like, Okay, I see what you're trying to do here, but why if we can just do a DNA on this rapist, we can just issue a warrant based on this rapist DNA. Why can't we just do that on every rape and just get the DNA, get a warrant, and then we'll find the purp at our leisure And she argues, well, this is a unique circumstance, and the judge is like, yes,

I don't know.

But Craigan stands up and is like, sir, we have two days to get this guy.

And the judge is.

Like, I feel you, bro, but we cannot circumvent the law.

And the application is denied.

And Lois is there, and now she's stop inviting these women to these fucking warrant hearings, like just let them know later. Like Lois is there and she has a fucking full panic attack. She like breaks down, is crying, like it just feels like another you know, door slamming

Her that he just like knew about her.

And then like after violating her, was like, let's chat and he left. At when he left, he said, you're a sweetheart, Lollie, and she says, the only person who calls me Lolli is my grandmother and like how would he know that? And she goes, the last detective told me to go to a shrink, like he didn't believe me, and I'm like, yes, that's milkman.

He's the worst.

And the purp new things about her she had never talked about on the phone, so she doesn't think it was a phone tap situation. She's like, he knew, like where I went rollerblading in the park, Like he knew what I was doing in the real world, not on a phone. And Olivia is like, well, could he have been on a bike and she was like, yes, I told the other detective about a green bicycle and he said I was going to see my rapist everywhere I went.

Cops took them. It's a perfect excuse.

And so now the gang is back at the house and they are diving into these files, but it's going to take forever. It's like stacks and stacks and stacks of like very thin pieces of paper, and Jeffrey says they could just look at the billing records. So immediately looking at the billing records for ten seconds, Olivia finds four deliveries to Jennifer's workplace in the week before her rape.

Now.

In interrogation with Jennifer, Olivia asks like, oh, what religion are you and we find out she's a Quaker and a member of the Society of Friends. Oh, they have

So then they bring in.

The other two victims to talk to Jennifer and Vicky is like, which I wonder if they would do in real life, only because if they talk to each other, it's like remember the Nicole Sullivan episode where she gets raped on the subway, and they like, they have all the women together in the same room, and that kind of negates it all because that gives them kind of a chance to like compare stories and get their stories straight together.

I don't know.

I just wonder if this would happen in real life anyway. Vicky's like, give me the name, and she thinks. Jennifer is like, she's like, you just want them all for yourself because you're holding the power of life and death over him. You can dime him out whenever you want, and that that's like why you're doing this, and you know, Jennifer's like, that's not why, and she's like, trust me,

And Vicky's just going all in.

She is a savage and then Lois just has a full meltdown, screaming at Jennifer, being.

Like, do you know what it's like to never leave in the house.

I'm like, she's so paranoid and this man's clearly like ruined her sense of safety. And she's like, I want him to pay tell me his name, you stupid bitch. One of the best lines, and you know, obviously we love that line. So then Jennifer says to Lois, I hope you find peace, and she goes, shut up, you.

Freak like cold.

I I mean, I feel for Lois so badly, Like I would kill this woman. Like she's so good at this part because she's so even keeled and zen, but that kind of temperament when I'm mad makes me crazy.

Oh yeah.

But it's also the vibe it's like anti choice people and stuff where it's like, well, this is what.

Works for me, so it must work for all.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm able to see outside of yourself in any way, and yeah, I hate her.

Yeah, It's like I'm like, you should be able to like maybe tell this guy. Hey, we're gonna like they're investigating this. Other victims are gonna have to turn you in, Like I'll pray for you in jail. I'll visit you in jail, Like you can do your own bullshit that you want to do to like maintain your your forgiveness of this man. But that's your You can't make these decisions for other people. So in Cragan's office, we have

And until you put them to the test.

I think we're both doing what we think is right, but we just disagree about what that is. And then Craigan asks Olivia, like are you okay? And she goes, well, we just sent a rape victim to lock up, so I'm not great. And now in the top of Act four, Commissioner Morris, the nasally white man from the beginning at the comstat meeting, makes a reappearance. He waltz into Daddi Craigan's office and he's like, we got to talk, and he's like he's just not psyched about the rape victim

So yeah, tick tick tick, we do not have much time left.

Benson and Stabler are talking to a guy at the Quaker meetinghouse. And this man is like a part time in voluntary not like priests, but like maybe some kind of spiritual leader at the Quaker house who listens to, you know what, other people when people need counseling. But he's also a psychologist and he tries he tried to convince Jennifer to send this guy to jail. He's like, yeah, Quakers are all over the justice system. They're judges, they're lawyers,

So they go and get it.

They come back and Olivia's like about to knock on the door and she's like, I feel very uncomfortable about this. And so they go into the meetinghouse and all these members are sitting there and they're just sitting in silence. And then the man that we just spoke to peacefully like asks them to leave or to sit and pray with them, and they're like, we have to follow the law,

I'm a way to the gym.

This guy was under our noses. So it's like a CD kind of hotel kind of has like, you know, the chain link grate in front between the concierge and the customer, and they say, we're looking for Harvey Dennis. And the guy at the front desk goes, I'm right here, and they tell him you're under arrest. Stand up, put

Twist done done.

So they wheel him out to the car and he tells them, you know whatever, just throw me in the car, like I can't feel anything from the ribcage down.

It doesn't hurt.

And so they ask him what happened and he's like, oh, a bike. I was on my bike and a truck side mirror smashed my spine. So he's paraplegic. And Stabler reads him his rights as he gingerly like places him in the car.

And that's dick wolf baby.

I wonder if his injury the injury that shut down Green Machine Bike messengers.

Oh with the insurance, Wow, look at you.

Because that's like, you know, that's he doesn't look like he got a great lawsuit or anything out of it, you know, so like or insurance cover it now?

And I understand where you know, Jenny Bacon's coming from of like, well, he's he's not going to do this again, but also fuck that guy he did it.

Yeah.

I think that her thing is like, yeah, he's already been brutalized in prison, he's unable to hurt anyone again, and he's prison in a wheelchair.

Sounds like a lot more challenging, you know.

But my thing is this is I don't know, there's no way to excuse his behavior at all, but it's like, on top of like the physical attack he did, he stuck these women for months, like he thought about this, Like, this isn't a person that just was like, oh I got drunk and I thought this person wanted it or whatever. Not that that person is excusable at all, but this is a person who like very much premeditated these tacks

And the internet was like chill back then. But if he was, who knows what he could have done with the internet. If that's like, yeah, being of stalking and doing.

He would have only like escalated this man.

Yeah, three in a week, and those are all people that he'd been stalking for months. It's like he orchestrated it all to happen in a week.

Yeah, put him to jail, all right. Annals is upset by this. We have to move on to the commercials. We'll be back with some crimes. So this is based on two crimes. But the more I think about it, who knows if the second one even makes sense. But we will start and we'll see what happens. So we

Who did you she just did the interview with.

Herd right, No, that was Savannah Savannah Guthrie. But you know Anne Anne Corey had did like a famous Angelina Joli interview, like she's a very nice woman.

I worked with her at the Olympics for a little Wait.

But did you read that Savannah Guthrie's husband did like pr for Johnny Depp? No, like he was he was working with Johnny during all of this, So I don't understand.

How did she not like recuse herself?

Then, I don't know, And how comes she would agree to do an interview with someone that was working with I mean, I have no fucking.

Idea unless she didn't know, but like Savannah should have been like, but how do I know?

I know you're a Today's Show correspondent, but you're still technically a journalist, and I feel like ethics and journalism not to be Gamergate, Like you should probably say my husband works with the opposing person on this lawsuit.

I should not interview you. Also, I was there was a big s view. Could I have done it? Well?

Yeah, there was an SVW marathon yesterday at the hotel and I rewatched Intimidation game.

She's good. Mousam is such a good actress. Oh yeah, she's great. Yeah.

Anyways, back to this, you just brought up gamer Gate.

So obviously, so yeah, sorry, I'd love to talk about Gamergate like every day if I can go on.

Okay, So back to Kathleen.

So what she is telling this interview with Ann Curry is she remembers seeing a light flickering on the fire escape outside of her window, and then she saw a hand attached to the light, and then she saw sneakers and then in a flash, she was inside the apartment. There was a huge struggle and he had a knife and then he threw a sheet over her head and she screamed, but then obviously he put the knife to her throat.

And was like I'll fucking kill you. Stop it.

Yeah, and then she was raped, so he raped her and a neighbor heard her screaming and did not get GENEVIZI in this up and did call nine one.

One, So that is great. Wait, well you say it.

Again, because I think you just said Genevisian, which is our old agent.

I know, but I thought it was like, but how do I make it as a thing like.

A verb, like yeah, kitty Geneviz? Yeah, how I said it? Go fuck it? Well you said Genevisian, go fuck yourself. I did it. Yeah.

So when the cops arrived, the attacker was still inside and they were able to corner him. But after a chase around the neighborhood, they they did arrest his ass so they cornered him. He escaped, there was a chase, they did arrest him. The two officers that arrested him are Rose Snipes and Abe Mengola, and they said it felt like a Christmas present to have him there and they knew that they had him and they were just

And then the case was also fucked. On top of this.

Terrible experience, the cops who thought that the case was going to be a slam dunk since they both could id the suspect, did not happen.

The man went by the name Clarence Williams.

And the huge problem, I guess even though he was inside Kathleen Ham never saw his face. I just I don't get this at all. But this was the seventies and the seventies. You're gonna hear something of a police captain said, and it's most fucked up ship. So reporter Julia pressed In, who covered the case for the New York Times, said there was a presumption and still kind of there is, but that a woman wouldn't be raped

Were his people trying to just say that he just broke in and it was like a robbery, like because it's apartment.

Yeah, So the prosecution focused on the cops ID, which should be enough, I feel, But the defense went after Kathleen. So it's the classic like Buchanan vibes of like are you They asked her on the stand if she was a virgin, like it's like, and then they went at her for two days and they tried to portray her as a prostitute and that she's like a working girl that is like a slut and not a virgin and makes money having sex and like they just like spun it as like a character assassination vibe, and.

They asked were her legs broken?

Because she didn't run away, so and then they kept like yelling, like when she tried to talk, they just kept yelling like yes or no.

These are yes and no questions.

Oh well, he does that all the time, Buchanan or some of those lawyers do that.

Oh, Buchanan, for sure. This is a Buchanan mosment, simple yes.

Or no, will sifat you know? Yeah?

So yeah, like to ask if you're a virgin and then ask if your legs are broken. It's like the most fucked up shit. And this is obviously before like all the language and all the stuff that we have. But also this isn't even that long ago. This is the seventies. And it was an eight day trial, two days of deliberations, and it ended in a hung journey.

So that was that.

She said to NBC News that she was shattered and she became very depressed. And while the fuck had Williams was out on bail awaiting trial. He was accused of sexually assaulting and shooting another woman.

Oh my god.

In a plea bargain, he plied guilty in the case and also to Kathleen's rape. Then that other case got overturned, so both cases had to be retried.

Oh my god, sorry, I'm about to kill somebody. I know it's going on.

I know this is like very fucked up. And she bounced to California. She's like, I don't want to take the stand again. I'm not dealing with this. Fuck New York, fuck everything. And she bounced. She's like, I'm not doing a trial again.

I can see why you would not trust New York State to keep you safe.

Yeah.

Yeah, So she ran away, and then this fucker escaped, like ran away and vanished so no one could find him. So for decades Kathleen had all of this worry and guilt, and she thought that like it was her fault that she unleashed a monster and that he was out there and hurting other women, and that she could have tried to meet him in court again.

So for decades she.

Was just like fuck, like I could have put this guy away and I didn't, and now who knows what he's doing. So not only is she living in fear, like living through this trauma, now all of this guilt of like what could she have done? And I bet all those lawyers are sleeping very well at night, not even thinking about this again, So she went to law school and became a lawyer, and so that's like good news. And then it said like she had a lot of

Dumb ass. Yeah, but just had to have a gun, didn't y.

Yes, So this is why we need background checks for fucking guns. Yeah, so this rapist couldn't get a gun, Like have laws gone backwards?

Is that's what's happened? Like is that? Like yeah, okay, So she.

Was pissed to get the call and was shocked. She gasped, and she just wasn't ready to hear about this ever again. So they called her after Nancy gave her a heads up.

So Nancy's the neighbors.

So they like asked Nancy, like, can you just please talk to this woman? And so Nancy and Kathleen chatted. They asked if she was willing to testify, and this time she said yes. They had her testimony, but even bigger. They now had DNA technology and science advanced. So they tested the soiled underwear from decades before and it had matched.

People use condom in the seventies, isn't that the thing?

Oh geez, I don't know but then why wasn't there any material genetic material?

Girl, I don't know. If a scientist wants to hit us up, that would be great. Yeah, so it was a match. It was an exact match to Fletcher worl Aka Clarence, and then they found it matched two rapes in nineteen ninety three in New Jersey. So it's like her biggest fear came true, you know, like he was perpetrating more crimes. Then his DNA popped up in nine cases from Silver Spring, Maryland, where he was known as the Silver Spring Rapist, which was part of a twenty

Could have taken I just saw, my god.

So all the DNA match to at least twenty three other rapes in Maryland and Jersey over the past thirty years. I think that judge, the defense, the fucking hospital workers all should be jailed.

No mistakes made. Fuck those motherfuckers.

The cops found this guy in her fucking house. I don't understand.

I don't either.

That's like what shocks me because it is like if the cops saw him chased him out, Like I don't understand.

Well, I think that's how badly.

That's how badly, Like they need to make women look like there's like no such thing as rape, like all women kind of want it in a way, you know. That's I think that's like what is happening, just like garbage misogyny.

And so then before the trial, Kathleen finally decided to come forward and go public with her story and reveal her identity.

I think she was like a Jane Doe until then.

She said she had nothing to be ashamed of, Like if she was burglarized, you would like you would use her names.

So why the stigma?

And this time the jury was made up of seven women and five men, and it only took two hours to find him guilty of first degree rape and robbery. And the robbery was he took Ford from her apartment. But glad we were able to add it on the retra years maybe And this brings up obviously with the episode talked about issues with statue of limitations. So her case was indicted when it happened, and they were able to use the underwear. But if it was just an

Obviously, this is okay.

So I guess what I was talking about was the second and third degree?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, No. I was like panicking as you were reading. I was like, what the fuck is happening? So everything is correct. I didn't even realize that though, like when I looked it up. So two thousand and six is when they stopped first degree, got it. Yeah, And then if you want to learn more about statute of limitations, there's a state by state guide on rain dot org. And you're all smart and capable listeners, so you can look all that information up. And it's a nightmare.

Well, I hope she died like at least feeling like she got justice eventually.

Yeah. Fuck, that's fucking horrific.

But I mean, I mean, the thing is too is like they had this guy on like twenty three rapes across New Jersey and Maryland. And those are women that went and reported, you know what I mean, Like I bet you it's so many more didn't even think.

About it that yeah, and that they couldn't find this guy and.

All these people, and I just it was like I'm sure it was like the seventies.

Women were scared.

They were like I'm not even going to the cops, Like I'll just move, you know what I mean, Like I bet there's so many more victims, like true true psychopath.

Oh my god, I know.

So the next case is about Paul Callo and he's in quotes the balcony Rapist. So Paul is a serial rapist and this happened in Toronto in the mid eighties. He would break into women's homes by climbing onto second or third story balconies. He was convicted of raping five women at knife point and spent twenty years in jail. So that's I guess good news. But as of twenty seventeen, this is the article said that Canada doesn't have a public sex offender registry, so there are no ways to

Was going to be living with them.

I kept trying to find more articles from the eighties and it was all people being like, get him the fuck out of my community, like so many Google pages of just people being like how dare he live? And so this just brings up a lot of interesting like legal shit. Again, I don't know how this attaches to the case, but whatever the WICKI said. So, so he's a little too casual, but I guess he's right, But he's quoted saying there's nothing I can do at this point. All I can do is see to it that I

Like, do you it's just tough? And yeah, it's just tough.

And we've talked about this all the time and this happened in some cases we covered in the UK, but this guy actually raped someone in nineteen eighty two and served jail time and did not give a shit, Like he was like, I'm just gonna do my time and get out and go back at it, like he did

He's just the sick o.

So he rape someone, serves his time, gets out, starts robbing, starts serial raping, goes to jail, and then wants to sue the department for slander because he's not that bad.

I bet you if you talk to this guy, he would be like a like a malignant narcissist, psychopath, like or sociopath. I mean, I know there's differences in the designations, but like the delusion of grandeur, you know, like I'm not that bad. They need to take back what they said about me. You know, it's like it's not something that makes any sense.

Yeah.

And then other big and unique issues with this case is the fifth victim felt like the police used her as bait, that they should have communicated a warning so people could have protected themselves, but they wanted to catch him. So. Victim five is known as Jane Doe, and in nineteen eighty six, she said that the police knew there was a serial rapist in the neighborhood. They knew he was operating in a very small six block radius, that he was attacking women who lived alone in second or third

Argues, so she sued the department so.

Like they'd warned the neighborhood about robberies but did not mention the rapes to the media at all. Oh, the police say, revealing that would have changed his tactics and targets. So would have fucked with the investigation. But it's also like someone else could have not been raped. But okay, and this is what I told you earlier. That's going

The rape Crisis.

Center was calling them and like wanted help, and they were just like fuck off, Like we know what we're doing. It's not like it's a special crime. And I think the reason I included this is because it kind of goes back to the Kathleen Ham case of like why was it mismanaged so poorly? And it's because people like this, like the men in charge did not think rape was

But I also think the episode is like very heavily.

And just like about the limitations about the statue.

I don't know that there's maybe ever been a woman who's like hiding her rapist's identity because she feels he's rehabilitated, or maybe that's happened in real life.

I wonder no, And I guess this case just deals with rehabilitation and what is it and what is not because this guy got out, but like the parole board legits like this man is unchanged, so who cares if

It's about punishment. It's not about you know, rehabilitation, it's about free labor. It's modern new slavery. It's not about it.

It's like it's that's like the wildest thing when traveling abroad being like, oh wow, our prisons are businesses, Like that's.

The most twisted.

There's so much twisted things in our culture, but like that prisons are for profit is probably.

One of the most sick. I would say, yeah, but yeah.

Also hopefully by now Canada has like a sexual predator registry, Like what the fuck.

Yeah, especially because we've specifically read so much about Canadian like killers and rapists, like there's a lot of them up there.

Annalis did just check and Canada does have a registry, So thank you so much Canada for doing the bare minimum.

Get on it, Canada, way to go.

But it is like a it is wild because it's like if you did serve twenty years for crime, like what are the rules? I don't want to live next to cerial rapist, whether he spent twenty years in jail or not, Like I don't know, I.

Know, And it's like I my tendency is to like feel bad, which is wrong. Like when they did that episode of like Welcome to the Pedo Motel where like Caresi's undercover with like all these people that are pedophiles and like some of them have been some of them just were arrested for sex abuse images. Some of them, you know, actually had worse crimes, and you're like, oh, that does suck that you served your time and no

You know, there's like an area in Florida where a bunch of pedophiles live, like in a cornfield somewhere. Really Florida's have corn I think there's a documentary about it, because the whole thing is it's like it is hard to find somewhere to live because you can't be near a school, you can't be near all of these different places.

So it's you get all the background checks and like apartments won't take you.

And so there's like a community of sexual offenders and pedophiles in Florida that all live together in that like some trailer park or I'm making this up in like a fever dream.

That I had, but I do feel it. Israel. I think you're looking it up.

I am. Originally I just got Jeffrey Epstein's Island but inside Miracle Village Florida's isolated community of sexual sex offenders. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a big Vice article about it.

From twenty fifteen.

They all live there, and then I wonder like do they all have like spouses and are they raising families around the other pedophiles or the person.

They interview here is a woman.

And I'm not saying women can't be sex offenders, but it's just it's like, Yeah, this woman's moving into this community, these other sex offenders, and it's interesting.

She's like it's varied.

Like sometimes it's guys that are like eighteen and had a girlfriend.

Who was sixteen.

You know, like that sucks that you should be turned out from society because you were dating someone two years younger than you.

Yeah, it sucks.

I find myself immediately going to a place of pity and feeling bad, and then I'm like, wait, no, they did commit horrible crimes.

Like a lot of them. But then it's like it's why are you taking the risk?

I just feel like so often us as women like don't walk at night, don't do this, don't do that, don't do that, And so for a minute's like, yeah, just don't fuck people under eighteen.

Can you not handle that? Yeah?

You can't handle this one little thing that you're supposed to do to not go to jail. So to me, it's like, oh, fuck yourself, I don't care about you. That's not true.

I care. I don't know. I just do a funny joke about it.

Go see her live, all right, And now we have a guest to cleanse the palette. As always, stay right where you are, Guys, today's guests, you could call a queen of the procedural drama. You've seen her in tons of appearances on everything from not just a Law and Order original Recipe, not just Criminal Intent, but also more recently Chicago Med New Amsterdam Blue Bloods, and today you know her as the rape victim who will never tell Jennifer Neil. Guys are interview is with the lovely Jenny Bacon.

Are you based in New York area?

Yes, am, okay, I can tell.

The daylight's a little bit different over there.

It's a little different, and it's springtime.

Yeah, I was just I just flew back from New York yesterday. But also you're a theater gal, so we kind of assumed you were in New York doing all the hits. Obviously you probably missed so much during pandemic lockdown, and how thrilled you probably are to be back.

Yeah, yeah, you know most if it's being mom now though, Oh yeah, no, it's mostly being mom.

How old are your kids?

There are seventeen and fifteen?

Oh my gosh, teens?

Yeah?

Are they in the arts?

They are?

Are they?

Are you going to like their school plays and stuff? Are they in the Yeah?

That's really cute.

And do you remember any of your favorite kind of plays that you were in at school? Or I did see your went to Northwestern and I'm a scho I grew up in Skoki.

Oh yeah, and we have a theory. We don't know what the theory.

Is, but we've talked to like a dozen people from SVU that have gone to Northwestern, so many people. We don't have the theory yet.

But are there another person in the episode that we're going to be talking about We were at Northwestern at the same time. Oh yeah, Seana Coovid, who played the very shy and afraid victim.

Yeah, and she calls you a bitch?

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah, that was really fun. Does she call me a crazy bitch or.

A stupid bitch? Tell me his name? You crazy?

Like?

Yeah?

Yeah, it was awesome.

So yeah, we knew each other, so even more cool cold yeah, I think that the secret mystery is just that Northwestern has a great acting school, right, is that it?

Yeah?

I think that is.

But you but that's so cool that you get to run into old alums and pals from that when you're doing TV work and stuff. And I looked her up too, and she's she works and seems like she's doing great.

Yeah, it's awesome. She's totally awesome.

But yeah, are there any like roles you remember as like a youth where you were like, oh, yeah, this is I'm gonna yeah that you look fondly on that you remember.

Well, the first big break I got as a sophomore was playing violin Twelfth Night. Oh that was super duper fun because it was a pants part, you know, oh yeah wear the pants. So that was awesome.

That's cool, and.

It is an honor to have you not only as you, but you have the trifecta. You know, your Law and Order Criminal Intent and an SVU a.

Lot the two sews.

Yeah, yes, oh we know we know about both, but we knew so was what Like?

I think Law and Order original Recipe is probably one of your first big breaks that you got. And then did it just work where they knew you at the casting office, and so they pushed.

You over for SVU or like, how did all these how did you how did your Dick Wolf journey begin? Please tell us your origin story.

So apparently the great thing about original recipe is that they had been working together for so long as complete meritocracy, and everybody knew that they were working at the top of their game, and people could work their way up inside in the production half of things. So the guy who directed my episode, it was his first time directing Wow the show, and he had worked his way up. He had just you know, like from you know, third a D to second a D to first D a D

Right? Sure?

She just like well, And also because you were on the first season, so right, like I don't even know if it was you know, now it's a well oiled machine and like you know it's so but like but for season one, I wondered did she have that same yeah, like same question as Lisa, Like was she that way right then?

Or are you speaking more.

About season fourteen when you came back, or was she from the get go just like a boss.

I would say that from the get go she was a boss because you can see it in her eyes, you know, like when she's like when they put her up against like a bad guy and she just looks right at him and she's like.

Not today.

And it's just that she has that energy in her, And part of it's like because she's just a perfect physical specimen of a human being. You know, she's walks into a room and she just like kind of she just knows that her job is to be optimistic, confident, you know, and to deal with it if it goes wrong, you know, like find a way. Yeah, and she does. It's like, Wow, it's like I wish you were my mom.

That's cool to hear that.

It was from season one and I loved what you said that, like she knows other people are good at what they do, and like that's like cool leadership to kind of trust the people around.

You exactly exactly and reinforce everything good that's happening. She's fantastic.

And then you got to come back for season fourteen and see how after like you know, a decade plus, how much like more in charge she was, because I think by now she was like an executive producer and like actually really in charge, like not just attitude.

But like you know, title exactly and yeah, and she's just she does. What you would want to do is like if you were emperor of the world, how would you want to be You'd want to be like Maurushika that's how you'd want to be.

Yeah, because so many people choose another way, right, so many people are like evil dictators, and she just chooses this positivity.

It's really cool to hear from so many people.

And how was Maloney shop liver compared to Murska? But yeah, any Maloney scoops?

No, I don't really have any Maloney scoops. I just know that, you know. Part of my job was he has one really great line in one scene that we have together where he goes, you prayed with your rapist, like, and so I felt like the whole scene was just to make sure that we set that up so that would just like man and.

It's it's like a kind of a fun line from him because his character is so religious too. He's like the church boy.

So it's, yeah, I know, praying, and I don't think you do that with your rapist.

You know.

That was what was fun about the episode actually was that it really put both of the detectives in the hot seat personally. You know, that was really fun because you know, Benson doesn't want to doesn't want to be there, and neither does you know, neither does Maloney. Then neither of them want to be there.

Yeah, it is a cool episode because I feel like there's like there are like moral dilemmas, Like at first, everybody hates your character, you know, they're just like say it, give up the name, you know, But then kind of at.

The end you're like, I don't know, maybe you know like this, I don't know. I'm not saying.

I was totally like, yeah, don't give I'm not saying I thought she was totally right, but I could see a little bit more where she was coming from, you know, Like I think it just makes you stop and think, Yeah, what are.

Your views on your character that you played? How do you feel about her?

I am so glad that you said that, because actually, because when you know the end, right, and my character is the only one who knows the end, she's like she thinks she's so good, and you know, when you're playing the bad guy who's the good guy, who is the bad guy's good gun, you still have to believe. He was like, no, no, she really wants to do the right thing. This is Yeah. So I have a funny story to tell you about that. Actually, it's a

Is so creepy?

I don't know you. It was like the funniest thing. I'm thinking, like, Oh, On the one hand, I like, wow, hooray someone recognized me. And then I'm like, how many people are my walking past thinking like I hate her? I don't know why that I hate her, just like in the back of their minds Oh so funny.

It's like did we go to high school together? Why do I hate you?

Like why do I hate you?

No, she is yeah, an easily hateable character.

Did you know about statue of limitations or like Quakerism or anything like that before you came to film.

Did you do any research or learn anything like from the episode?

Absolutely? Mostly though what I was interested I did have my brother had a friend who had watched these episodes, and they sort of played a game where she would guess. She'd be like, she's an abused woman, she's religious, she said like, she like, she's like and she was always right and she could guess like I would like lay the clues in just for her and she would know,

Just kind of changed my mind a little bit because I forgot about the trumper.

It's like, yeah, she's holding onto it.

Who knows if she even believes it, but she feels like she has to continue doing this for the way something.

Yeah, it's the only way that she can wake up in the morning, you know, Right, And so that's but this is what happens when we bumped up against each other, right.

But I feel like your voice is a huge part of the character. Like, listen, I've seen all five hundred and whatever episodes of the show. There are many of them, many times, and you're a victim that like stands out to me because of the way you talk. I think like because of the way you spoke in this episode, I'm always like, oh, yes, the woman who won't give up her own rapist and she knows him, and she's so zen and calm, like you, you know, you stick out in a sea of victims in the show, and.

How is it filming getting yelled at by your other awesome?

Well, see this was also interesting, right because there's three victims, and so it's like a fairy tale, right, and so there's only one of us that's actually sympathetic, and that's Shawna's character. And I think that Judith and I both were sort of wondering, like, well, how come my how come I guy? I mean, my good has a good reason to behave the way they're behaving. They have to behave this way. But like if everybody was like Shawna's character,

She's just like so.

Sweet and like cannot move on until you say and the other one's just like I sue everyone and then you have the secret.

And so yeah, she is the sweet one kind of.

And then all of a sudden she switches.

Oh my god, it was so good. We love it.

We love a you crazy bitch lying on this show for sure. And you noticed any big differences between like when you do when you've done original recipe versus sbu versus criminal Intent, since you've done all three.

Well yes, mostly because Marishka. Mostly because Marishka. The Criminal Intent was super duper fun. But you don't feel that they are at risk, Like it's Marishka's character. She's managed to create like an arc, like a never ending arc that's always moving forward. She has a capacity to accumulate experience, she has capacity to grow, she has the capacity to change. She's therefore unpredictable, like we're never entirely sure how she's going to absorb something and then move it forward the

Important character on the show, those eyebrows.

Yeah, we talked to a lot of actors that say, like, while in New York, being in a Law and Order as a stamp of approval, you're not a New York actor till you get to do SV and stuff.

But you did those all so early. Did you still feel that or was.

It like a bragging thing like I was on season one, Like how did you feel about getting that stamp?

Men?

No, it's a massive stamp. It's massive. It's like you're yeah, and you know I did do them early, but that was more like like go for it, man, go for it. You're here, You're part of the you're part of the tribe now.

Yeah, and could you imagine that show would go on for twenty three seasons?

Wow?

Amazing.

I mean, Karen and I are always really impressed, and we ask a lot of questions about the tears, the crying, the single tear. But you and and actually both of your episodes, what's impressive is like you have wet eyes, they're not dropping. Is that just naturally you're in the moment. Is that a calculated decision? And how do you keep your eyes so wet?

You're using drops? Tell us you're using drops in between two? That's all we want to hear.

It's funny, you know, it's actually I remember when I was very young, I worked with this amazing actress named Irma p. Hall who's unfortunately passed on now. But she was a woman who came to acting late in life, and she would talk about how people would say, oh, you know, do you think you could cry in this scene? She'd be like, honey, I could cry all day. I

Yeah. I just loved how progressive that relationship was too, just like yeah, we just we're partners. We love each other, we let each other do what we do. Like it was great.

It's pretty exciting and unexpected.

Well, both of your characters are so different from what you expect normal to be. You know, both the season one and fourteen characters are very different.

Yeah, that's true.

That's true.

I mean you're almost like this radical forgiveness is progressive as well, I would say in a way. You know that, Like you didn't see a lot of characters, like a lot of shows were just about fully law and order, like where's the justice, Like everyone wants justice and you're like, well, my idea of justice is different.

And yeah, it's interesting.

That is I never thought of the through line between those two characters is radical forgiveness, but it's true. That's funny.

Yeah, And how did you feel did you get to work with Amorrow Danny Pino?

He was the other detective, wasn't he in your scene when you were I was telling a story, Yes, when I was telling this story.

It's hard to say because Marishka is such a nice person that I feel like she could be partners with anybody, but there was definitely a gentleness and an ease to their partnership, and it was fun how they're allowed to have different they don't have to have the same reaction to the surprise.

You notice so many good details. That's the theater. That's the theater, right, and.

Then being in the Dick Wolf universe. We saw you also did Chicago Med. How was it going back to Chicago after doing theater there for so long and being able to film and like, what are the places you love to go and stay while you're in Chicago?

Yeah, oh my gosh, it always becomes a Chicago tourism towards the end.

Wow, well my mom is still there, as is my brother. So my mom actually got sick while I was shooting Chicago Med and so I was bringing her, you know, Thai food and stuff to that delicious chicken soup that makes you feel better. You know. It's always fun to go to Stuff and Wolf, that's for sure. That makes me happy.

We saw that you did an episode of Bold.

Did you ever get to meet Geneva Carr, She's the blonde that's like the main No, I.

Did not that was another psycho killer. I was just an a warehouse holding a gun to his head from Oh yeah, I think.

It's so funny we get cast as a psycho so much.

Wow, Yeah right casting.

Well, it was exciting to talk to you because it was gonna be like does her what is her voice? You know what I mean?

Like it's similar to your character? Very good demon. Yeah. Do you do voiceover?

Uh? No, nobody wants to because I can't sell anything. I just make everybody fall asleep.

No, you could absolutely do meditation apps. You're gonna do meditation apps Like I would absolutely listen to you to fall asleep, like just to calm down and not have anxiety at the end of the night.

Not that you're putting me to sleep. You're very interesting. I just be in the tone of your voice.

If you were like telling me a mundane story, I'd be right out like.

Like awsome, get the phone book, let's do it.

Yes.

Is there any where that our listeners like any future projects or anything you want anyone to check out or find you on the internet or a cause you're into.

Yeah, if you don't mind, there's there's a very small theater company in New York City and the name is Houses on the Moon and I love I work with them, sometimes not as an actor, but behind things. What's amazing about them is that each play that they do is completely unique and unique to the cause that they're from two thousand and one. Their mission statement has been to amplify the unheard voice, and they go into communities they

Houses on the Moon? Okay, awesome, Thank you for sharing about that.

Thank you for asking that. It be really nice to be able to talk about them.

Are there any other like stories or tidbits that you'd love to share?

All I can think is that, you know, when I did the original recipe, I was so amazed at the machine that whenever we had a break, I had changed it into my costume is fast as possible, and then I just watch everybody doing their thing, and it was just it was so amazing to watch everybody working at the same time, the lighting, the props, you know, set everything like and the pieces you know that they that it's like a big erector set and they can like

Right, Yeah, I've never heard that word in my life. But care.

We're just down to the very the tiniest details, like everything was perfect. Everybody just does their jobs so well.

Yeah, yeah, we talk about that all the time, and I think as like, when you're not in the biz or whatever, you really don't know how many people and how many skills it takes to make this bee like a great production. And as to you, it's like we were just doing an episode where it was in a restaurant, and like they're the schedules in the back and the stickers and there's always just these little details everywhere that are so good.

I think people think that they're just renting out a restaurant using whatever's around, and it's like no, no, no, They're like they're set decorating this whole thing, like they it's like all.

The details and the mediculous control.

Yeah.

So we're very impressed by it all the time and glad to hear. We're glad to hear you are too.

God, I wish I could think of some amazing story. I can't think of asking for the.

Fact that this episode was on twenty one years ago, so you really really Oh, I.

Know one thing, at the very beginning of the episode, it's not really a memory thing but it's just at the very beginning of the episode, I say a whitlock. Did you see I say A whitlock? Is like, he's like, that's the time you see the very beginning of the show, and it's just like I knew him from around and it's just so exciting to see it, to go back in time because I had actually forgotten because it's so tough and it's so just at the very very beginning.

Like oh yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, he's so young.

It's wild when you get to grow up with a lot of these actors and then be surprised.

Yeah, that is always a surprising start.

And that you don't know, like because you know, there are a lot of people out there like, you know, oh, I'm going to be a star and it's like sure, yeah, you know, and it's like no, he's like, you know, he's Spike Lee's right hand man and he's like working with Donald Glover and he's like no, It's just like this is so cool. It's the little time capsules too. It's fun to take the ride back in the time capsule the nineties hair, So I kind of like, wow, look at that.

Well, I was gonna say, a lot of the people that we talked to from the earlier seasons to that, like, there wasn't a lot shooting in New York, So it does seem like it was really a small community of actors overlapping and you probably saw each other at the Chelsea Piers all the time. And I kind of love thinking about all of you guys running into each other all the time.

Definitely, Well, they have not had you now in a few years. I think we've all forgotten about a back role. Now it's time and I'd like to see that psycho killer of you on this because you haven't done that on this one yet. So if you're listening, yes, for you casting, we have one Ny Bacon with a knife.

We need her back, yeah, killing children or something really well.

Oh yeah, like an unhinged mom.

Yeah, yeah, that's I think that's that's what America needs.

Yeah, you know, I just love a Thespian.

You know what I mean.

I'm actually in the hotel where my Thespian high school banquet was upstairs.

Really yeah, kind of cool. Right, Oh wow, Memory Lane, that's fun. That is fun.

Yeah, but I do love a theater goo you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, No, she was great. She definitely has like she should. I like, I told her, I'm like, you need to like be on like the meditation apps or something. Her voice is like so soothing, like she would put me right to sleep.

Yeah, And I like that she had the inside scoop that Marishka was a star from season one. You know, she could tell. She could tell the more gossip the better. That was really cool and I like it.

Well.

I love this this episode at everything Quakers fighting.

Just tell me his name, you stupid bitch. It's so good and I love U.

Not I love but I enjoy doing local, smaller types of crimes that maybe not a lot of people know about. I obviously love doing the massive research of like a Scott Peterson or Eileen Morenos, but I really do, in a different way enjoy researching these smaller crimes that just like have what do you call it?

I don't know all crimes are equally important.

No, but more like yeah, not sort of lower profile crime and though they're even though they're just the magnitude of every crime is important, like they're just not they don't just all get picked up by people magazine, you know.

And this case like sparked new legislation and so that's you know, even like one person, I don't know, one bad thing can make a difference.

I don't know what, I don't know what to say.

No, it's like we have, like we have talked about a lot of cases where even if a person doesn't get justice, like it has changed one thing, you know, like sadly they don't, you know, they don't get the justice they deserve, but then hopefully future victims have been saved by their I hate to say sacrifice because they didn't do anything intentional, but you know.

Yeah, but having to take the stand and doing all that it is. Yeah, and that's what the episode showed too, right right. Oh and it's the classic thing of someone commits a sexual crime and then gets not a lot of jail time and then comes back out and commits lots and lots more crimes like or all these like mass shooters and stuff like we just don't take these crimes.

What the fuck? Yeah? But a great episode.

But I also yeah, I also like Jenny Bacon did bring shit to light because I hated the character and then hearing her be like, you know, people heal in different ways, and this was the way that she was able to like yeat through. It made me really open my eyes to a different perspective on the character.

No, that's a really good point.

I forgot about that, And yeah, it's that was really interesting. I always like from the beginning was kind of like I see what she's talking about, but like you have to empathize with the other women and that they want justice, and yeah, I mean I don't know, what do you think?

What do you think? And I know we like to pretend we know what's happening after the episode's over, Like, what do you think happens to that guy? He like goes to jail? Yeah, yeah, as he should.

I don't know, right, Sometimes it's good that the show is fiction, but it's not what does our podcast prove?

What else? Okay? I did see the meme making.

Fun of like two women doing murder podcasts, but in it it was like what's up murder muffins? And we still don't have a name for everybody, And I wish we did. Murder muffins would have been good.

I like calling them our dick wolf babies. Oh, okay, dick wolf babies. Oh I didn't know that. Okay, did I miss that? Said? We said it a long time ago, but then we like never really said it again. I don't think anyone's really attached to it.

Please let us know how you feel about Dick will maybe our little dick wolf pops. Oh, I get it more. Oh my god, I watched a wild video on the Internet of a cat and a fox getting into a fight and the cat fucking got away.

But it was fucking wild. It was wild. Oh my gosh, cat you've got for her life and the cat one.

You know what Olivia Benson would have said to that cat. You did what you needed to do to survive. Yeah, don't blame yourself, mittens, Mittens, don't blame yourself.

You did exactly what you had to do. All right. Listen, let's move in to our what would Sister Peg do?

Segment? This is our weekly segment where we point you to a organization book article, something to help shed more light on the topic we touched on in today's episode, and I wanted to point out this New York Times article that is called should Statutes of Limitations for Rape Be Abolished? And obviously the link is in our show notes.

Same situation as Donna.

And so I just thought it shed a lot more light in case you're like, what is the statute of limitations? Because you know it was different. This is a season one episode. The statutal limitations in New York has changed since this article came out, So since this episode came out, and since this article came out, So I think it's important if you want to know more about the statute

Next week's episode, we'll be doing Criminal Stories Season fifteen, episode eighteen. Get ready for Benson's Bouncing Curls and Hulu Peacock VPNs. Get your episodes in, do your homework or else, and we'll see you next week. Bye, guys, That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod and on Twitter at Messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Klank and at glitter Cheese.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our producer Annalie Nelson.

And to our mixer John Bradley.

And to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer and everybody at exactly right media.

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