Liberties w/ Jon Patrick Walker

Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable. We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on. These are our stories. Done done, Yay, that's messed up. An SVU podcast Coming at you live JK. I am Liza Traeger and.

I'm Kara Klank and pre recorded to you, pre recorded, but I'm coming to you from New York. We're actually in the same place right now, not in the same room, but same city.

No, people truly ask me all the time. They're like, oh, how did you record post the move? I'm like, did you not live through the same pandemic as us? Like, I know, I don't even know how this is even a shocking question to you. How we do it in separate places?

And we also used to post like more little video clips where it's like we're clearly in different rooms, you know, like the clips that we used to do.

Yeah, I know, for you know reason, not that ever, It's just like it seems like a silly question.

So many people are like, wait, Lisa moved, how do you do the pod?

I'm like, the same way we've always done it.

When we lived three blocks away over Zoom zooming baby, tell.

Us, Okay, you know in New York, the concrete jungle. Yeah, I'm in the concrete Johnny. It's hot as fucking hell.

I mean, listen, I've been back here a million times since I left. I loved living here everything. I haven't really been back here with my two kids, like living day to day.

I've come back.

You know, I did a little spring break with Rosy Ones for like four days, both kids all day every day. In this city, it's a little, it's a little. I have like a lot of respect for the NYC parents. Like I always knew it was gonna be harder than like La for sure. But like, I just took Oscar to a grocery store yesterday, smallest grocery store.

Everybody's going, excuse me, excuse me.

I'm like, because I've got him in a stroller, just because he was too lazy to walk the whole distance to the thing. And everyone's like, other people are in there with strollers. But everyone's like, excuse me, pardon me, And I'm like, oh my god, I just kept getting so stressed. I couldn't look at any of the groceries because I was blocking someone everywhere I went. Yea, and then just like and just like, it's hot and they're not as used to walk, but they've gone on the

There's like a new one. Yeah, there's a new pool. It just opened on like June twenty seventh, like a giants supposed to be the biggest pool in New York. But it's in Central Park. It's a giant circle. I've only seen photos. I've only sit in photos. But I did fit angle my way to a pool on Sunday, exciting. Yes I did. Yeah, I used a person. I did, but I like them a lot, so it's fine. But I did, I did get, I did dunk, and I'm going back. I'm going in two days. You know, I'm

They lent me a lock because I was on my way there and I didn't have a lock and I couldn't find a place, and so they lent me a lock, which was really nice.

And then the water was really cool. Did you remember a new code? What do you mean? I wouldn't remember. I wouldn't be able to remember a new lock. No, they lent me a lock with a key. Amazing.

Yeah, they let me a little lock with a key. It was really nice cause they were like, you can't come in without a lock. I thought it was like optional, like you could get robbed and you just like kind of take that on yourself.

It's not optional. You have to lock.

So I was like, all right, uh, what do I do? Is there a place near here? And they were like hold on, and they were nice and they give me one. And who says New Yorkers are not nice?

They are. And then we got in the pool.

I met a fucking kid that goes to school with the kid that I'm staying with whose apartment I'm staying in. They knew each other like they know each other. It was like crazy, so such a small world. And then this guy works in restaurants. I was like, tell me where to eat around here? It was great, but the water was so cool and I loved it. It's fucking hot as hell here, and my kids were being babies

Yeah, how do they feel being in the city, Like what is Yeah? What are their thoughts? Because I think a lot of stereotypes do come true in the summer, and it does smell like piss more than it doesn't.

Yeah, like Oscar a couple of times has been like, what's that smell?

And I'm like, listen, New York's full of tons of smells. Keep walking, like you'll be it'll be a different it'll be a delicious smell in about one block, you know.

Like, So they've been liking it though, like it's just uh, the walking. They love it at first, and then eventually they're like, h you know, but they're but they've they're they're doing great. I mean, they love this apartment that we're in because my friend has two kids their exact ages, so they're just playing with all new toys they've never seen before. So they're like pumped. But yeah, but it's

The airport and then on the plane.

And Rosie was feeling queasy on the plane and would stop whining. And then my mom picked us up and is like crazy driving in Brooklyn, Like it was just like a lot. I was like, I'm gonna die. And then I tried to go to sleep the first night. I was going to get some sleep for the first time in like forty eight hours, and Oscar woke up at eleven pm and was like it's morning, and I.

Was like, I'm gonna kill somebody. So like it was just like a lot.

But it's been a couple of days since we've been here and I'm feeling good.

It's all good. Wait, what did you say it at a hotel by the airport.

Yes, because I had my house deep cleaned on Friday, and of course I'm not gonna let my kids set foot back in that fucking house after they get out of their dirty hiking camp. So I booked us a hotel by Lax and was like, let's just state, we'll just go from We went to a friend's house after camp for like a little wine and pizza, wine for me, not.

For the kids.

And then and then we went to this Lax like highatt and then went straight to the air but from there, which was like great too, because you know it's a five minute drive to the Delta terminal.

So yeah, damn yeah it was. It was a lot. It was a lot of moving pieces.

And I have so many bags, like I have three massive suitcases and a little carry on with all these kids plus their little backpacks. My backpack, everything weighs twenty five thousand pounds. Like it's it's like I thought I was gonna like I was, like, my body.

Can't handle anymore, like I'm dead. But I made it. I made it. You made it. I mean I love it here. And like the Empire State Building was gay for Pride, and it just looks so cute with the rainbow, like I love the rainbow nice. And then when I was go with my friend's pool who I used in Brooklyn Heights, it's like you're passing the bridge, you just see the boats and the jet skis and the views and then my glass little you know they have a second glass water tower. I don't know, it's just like

Yeah, I love the city in the summer.

I know a lot of people don't. I love it.

Like I and my friend that I'm staying with here has a sick view of Manhattan from Brooklyn, Like it's really like overwhelming how awesome it is.

And I'm like showing my kids and.

Like Jared has this joke that he does where he's like you're lucky for there. He goes, You're welcome for the amazing life we're giving you, and like this is like I was just showing them the New York City skyline and was like, do not complain for one second.

Look how great this is? You know, Like so it's been it's been cool though, but now and then I'm out. So I'm doing the reverse. But I'm just one person. But packing to do kill my spirits. Like once I go for three weeks, it's like it's just not a simple game. When I do a pop off weekend, even two weekends in a row, that's that's nothing. But when we're talking, I'm going to winter, you know what I mean.

Oh that's right. You guys tell your trey is an Australian winter. How wintry is it?

I mean, people are dramatic it'll be like thirty the coldest in Melbourne and Auckland, but like forty to thirty is the coldest it will get. So I don't think I'm bringing. Someone that I know from Australia said better to layer, So I don't think I'm gonna bring my big, big winter. But like I don't know if that leather I can layer this. Yeah, it's just that's what I Yeah, that's what I'm going through at the moment. A lot,

I'm like, I I can't keep plants, but I'm watering their plants a little bit.

Because sometimes you can't just water them where they are. They have like a hole in the bottom with the soil. You got to put him and it's like, what are you? What are we doing here? Suddenly I'm a botanist. No, I can't do all that. No. Well, speaking of New York, I saw Margaret Joseph's Who's a Jersey Housewife? But okay, wait, I saw this wait, I was set. So I was like, so we're at a hotel lobby and then me and my friend Shocks, we go downstairs to use the bathroom,

In the same elevator with her, Yes, okay, I saw our Wait do you want to not talk about how your friend got married or do you want to talk about I don't care.

But they were in the love That's what I said. People were in the lobby. I went to the bathroom and then so just me and my friend, the elevator doors open and Margaret's in there. No one else experienced that.

Yeah, I did not know anybody saw her in full view because I saw somebody post a photo of her from a far and was like, oh, neat, that's a good omen. You're getting a Margaret on your wedding day. That's exciting. But then you were in an enclosed space. So what happened? How did she react?

She was like, oh, yeah, you look incredible. But then I didn't realize that they had seen her through the lobby, you know, like this was my own experience, and so I try to get her out of the I go, my friend just got married, you gotta come out. I go you gotta say hi to my friend. And she was clearly like, well, congrats to your friend, like of course she's not gonna come out of the YELP things.

It was through ye, Margaret's had some good work done. I feel like she looks great. Yeah, but I wish I composed.

I truly screamed, like chose like I couldn't.

But was this like the end of the night. Was this towards the end of the night or no, Like where was this, Like there was a few drinks in and like having.

A great time at my friend's wedding. I would definitely know there wasn't a wedding. My friends got married for health insurance, and then we went to the courthouse, but they got a hotel room. So we after dinner stopped at the hotel room. We were gonna have drinks on the roof, but it was closed for a wedding. Like there were just like a lot of events happening at the There was just like a lot. Oh. I did go to one bride party that was exciting. I danced, but it was so and then we just went to

But I was gonna say, every time you and that friend book a hotel, you see bravo people, because.

You do sometimes.

I mean, there was like the time from the other hotel I saw.

But we were also with someone where we're like, it's a good because someone else got married and there was a house. Oh Bennett who was with us, Julia's friend when he got married Ebony was on the same rooftop as them, oh New York. So it was like, it is an omen, it's a good one.

Someone sent me a screenshot of something that I don't know if it's real or not that says we might get to see Morocco.

That Morocco, oh might come out. Did you see this? I didn't, and I don't want you to get my hopeset. I really don't.

Somebody said to me and was like, we might get and I was like, I was thinking the same thing, kind of.

I was like, I don't know. I'll believe it when I see it, you know. Yeah, did you see Andy Cohen moved, uh moved building after twenty two years. Yeah. I saw his beautiful homage to his like like staff at his building. It was so nice. Oh my god. So I went to dinner at a friend's house. They have one seven year old daughter, and she's like an Upper West Side girl, Like, what are you gonna say? You know what I mean? She walks to school and she's very hip, and so I'm talking and she goes,

My sister when she taught fifth grade on the Upper East Side, Like they were like, you don't have a country house, Miss Caitlin. Like they couldn't believe she didn't have a country house. You're like, what do you like do on the weekend? Like they you know, it's like they don't. Oh, I don't know, but I had such a nice city.

I forget. It's it is easy to cook. They like put some salmon in the air fryer, and I have like a delicious moist piece of fit. I mean, I don't know. I want an air fryer. I think you would love an air fryer.

I need an air frier company to sponsor our pod and give me one.

Come on, like one hundred and thirty.

There's a specific one I want. There's a specific one I want. Yeah, there's one I've looked because I like that it's like a toaster, oven and an air fry. It does like a bunch of different things, and that's the one I want. It's like a Breville one. I don't know, it's it's it's a hoop dream for them to sponsor the pod.

But well, I was about to say, what else are you going to do in New York? When am I going to see you? But we also huge announcement you're in New York or the Tri state area down to do a trip in August to New York. Who wouldn't want to do that? Who wouldn't want to be in New York in August? Every therapist and person with a country house, that's they leave. They and the art world they shut down too.

But if you are in New York City on August fourteenth, that's a Thursday, We're gonna be doing a That's Messed Up live at the Bellhouse in Brooklyn, baby so and it's a lot of smaller venue than we've performed at before in one show.

So I get I would get your tickets.

Get tickets, get tickets, And I mean the nice thing about the Bellhouse is it's like it's a little different than some of the other venues we've done. There's no drink minimums or anything like that, so you could just come watch us sang out hard to drink.

You know, it's more cash. They do want you, they want you. They'll yeah fond. You don't bring your knives or guns. Don't bring a knife for a gun to the SVU podcast.

If it's like your cause playing as us, which people have done before, you know, you can bring fake cuffs or whatever.

I'm sure that'll be okay with the wand people.

But yeah, go to That's messed Up live dot com. We'll have the link up there to buy tickets, and yeah, come see us.

We're gonna do We'll do an episode we've never done in.

New York, so obviously you're gonna get something new and fun and yeah, I'm excited. We haven't done a live show since Febbs, so come and come hang down.

It's so many the Melinda Warner Rollins who dress up in North Carolina for our Halloween shows. They came to my stand up show, but the shows before the one they came to, they go remember the girls who dressed up, they were like the talk of the town. Truly really, it really does stay with us forever. Yeah.

Well last when we did like a tiny tour last year too, we got a lot of Halloween. Were so close to Halloweens, we were getting a lot of Halloween and those people.

Really turned it out. That was really fun. Well, yeah, this is what I was talking about. Yeah, yeah, like Denver, Pa, you don't have to do it in August, but we.

Yeah, yeah, please please, you do not have to wear a leather and dresses rollins on in the mid August to New York City too much. And then if you're going, if you are in Australia, go to when You're at That's Messed Up Live. You could also go there. Scroll down to Liza's website that has all the tickets to her Australia and.

New Zealand shows. I do feel like we're letting everyone down. I have not watched My mom is Jane. I know. I'm sorry. I want Jania. I'm going to. But I've been getting text and from people and they're loving it. Someone's like, I didn't really think about Marishka. Now I'm obsessed with her like that. It's so well done and emotional, so it gets.

Wild to me because I oh, I wanted to mention this to you, like, you know, the other podcast I listened to is called who Weekly, right, yeah, and so who Weekly basically I love it. They divide celebrities into who's in thems and then there's actually nas, which are

That's the dumbest thing ever. And I was like, definitely of them.

And they were like they were arguing that Olivia Benson is a bigger them than Marishka Rteah.

Sure, but there is no Olivia without Marishka. True. But they see the people at her premiere, I mean, share was there, Like, I know, the the A list people that were at the car that at the premiere was was insane, went really deep yes.

I think though that if you don't listen to like our podcasts or you don't like super follow like, you might not know that she is like truly one of the most connected people I think in the business.

I think she knows everybody, and I think even at the Knicks games like the other like Ben Skiller and all those people are like like like, she gets hugs from players that won't even hug their family, Like, yeah, people are obsessed with her and everyone watches us to be It's just a show that's been on the air for twenty six years. It would be psychotic to say it's not them. Yeah, Jamie Lee Curtis was at this premiere.

No, I obviously she's my biggest them in my life.

Like obviously I think she's them. You know their vanes or shields. Well, we have friends fully star studded b but Liam Neeson's there. What they would even.

Think of other examples of people where their character is like as famous as they are or more famous. Oh, that's a lot of thinking, Like yeah, I was like John Snow is probably one of them.

You know what. A lot of clips from Game of Thrones are showing up in my YouTube shorts and this might be a little slow to the game, but looks good. I think I might want to watch somebody might be getting in. The only thing about Game of Thrones.

Is like you have to actively watch so hardcore because there's so many fucking plot lines going on. That's why I kind of like House of the Dragon, how so the Dragons the new one, and it's really just like one or two plot lines going on at all times. It's like a light Game of Thrones because Game of Thrones have a fucking story raging.

Yeah, you've got it. I'm like sitting with my Olivia Lighter being like, how dare you call her a? Who? Yeah? I mean everyone from the Office I think, like even Steve Corral I don't think his oh'm I mean he's really famous and beloved, but I bet people call him Michael Scott all the time. Yeah, yeah, that's true, Michael Scott. Yeah,

Yeah, I mean, look at Kevin from the Office, who was on an SVU that we covered recently, and I was like, I can't believe that that's this guy's real name. I did not know it, like I've always he's always Kevin from the office to me.

I don't know. I watch yeah, but like the Rain, he was on last Meals and he was trying to be condescending, like, whoa, how do you know about Persian food? And he goes my co host is, I'm like a professor. I don't know. It was just it was uncomfortable to watch Rain Wilson. Yeah, he's uncomfortable. Oh he's yeah, I didn't let Yeah he's in an SVU. Yeah he is. He's like a janitor. I forget about that one. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm like for having a hard time remembering. Anyway, we are gonna watch My mom My Mom Jane.

Yeah, I'm going to watch well. I also, I have a quick thing. I just want to say. I tried to horse readdish cream cheese, not good, would not recommend. Just want to look out for my friends that'll listen, that might be lured, don't do it, okay, And then I have terrible news for you. I did start watching season two of Queer Ultimatum so oh my.

God, it's gonna be all I hear about all right, all right, so bad.

It's like they take out everything, like everything fun from reality and they just they all want to be challenged. I'm like, why do you all want to be challenged so badly? It's like, yeah, I think she's gonna challenge me. It's like, okay, I don't. I don't understand why you get Also.

Life could be easy, yeah.

But also like the flip to then just pretend to be married with a stranger for three weeks to then flop back, but you have to sleep in the same bed, but then everyone's getting mad if they cuddle with anyone else. It's it's so psychotic. If anyone's watching DM ME, I just yeah, I would Also why is the host straight? Why is the host a straight woman? It makes no sense. It makes no sense. And she's like, just because I'm straight doesn't mean I don't understand about life. It's like, yeah,

They couldn't get Krishelle or somebody, like, come on, that's crazy.

I think it's fair. But I would say better than all the other dating shows, Like everyone looks different and it's from different plates, like they all like it's really that's the only uh that's like a cool thing.

Yeah, because Love Island is a little bit more homogeneous. I feel like everybody's talking to me about Love Island. I mean, I'm never gonna watch Love Island, but people are talking to me about it.

Yeah. It's wild what you do fight off because you're usually ravenous about keeping up with the culture.

Yeah, but I can't. I can't, Like I don't really do fuck life. I don't, like I've talked about this before, right, Like, I don't really do fuck life.

I just do Housewives. But and vander Pump.

Was as close to fuck life as I got. And I'm not even really still in it anymore. But I do want to watch Next Gen. I do want to watch Next Gen. I'm watching that. But wait, one other thing I was gonnay is people are asking us to react to the Call Her Daddy interview.

Obviously I haven't listened to it. I don't want to Spotify are serious now, Like, I don't watch it. The one clip I saw it's a little cringey. It's hard for me. I mean, we obviously love Marshika it's hard for me to watch her try to be funny and personable. Mm. It's like cringey to me. It makes me uncomfortable. Yeah yeah, I mean it's so mad. Yeah, I'm like so cool and fun and I'm hysterical, and I'm like, I don't think I could I do. I can't.

This is a woman that uses like hashtags as full sentences, you know what I mean.

Like, this is a woman that.

Like uses a hashtag like let me introduce you to my best friend Brooke. Like you know that's'll be like the hashtag. You're like, that's not how they work. But I love her, But I did like one clip I saw where she said like in her twenties she wasn't really getting a lot of work. And I was like, that's wild, because like you're a nepo and gorgeous and like she is like an example of somebody. She did not get this show until she was in her thirties, you know.

Yeah, and she thought she was gonna do comedy, you know. Yeah, So that's the clip I saw. There was just like psychic. Yeah, there's just this thing of like it just was hard to watch. I would say, yeah, just the one little thing. But I'm gonna after I watch the movie, I'm gonna listen to the mark Maren.

Oh yeah, I'm I'm more interested to see how she was different on Maren versus on uh, on Alex Cooper or whatever. But all right, we've got a lot of Marishka catching up to do. We'll get on it as soon as possible. It's a busy summer. I've been traveling.

Jesus about travel what So the Sharman Bear the commercials, the new Sharman Bear has a Tiffany's Heart necklace on it. She's like a red bear and she has like a Tiffany's necklace. I took photo, but I'll get in trouble if my phone is next door recorder. So but the Sharman Bear is wearing a Tiffany's necklace. So I send it to a friend who's a fellow Tiffany's Heart girl, and then I just send it to her being like lol,

Yeah, and that's like I yeah, I mean not the same level of severity. But I did keep texting my old babysitter asking when her boyfriend could do a bird show for my kids, and it was always right after they had just broken up.

I did it twice. Yeah, I did it two times, and then I was like sorry, like I just it's so awkward. But now we can legit start, we can legit.

I like when you're like, wait, I have to say one more thing. The Sharman bear wears a Tiffany's Like, it was like this must be I thought you were just going to talk about the Tiffany secause I was like, yeah, this was we had to keep this in important information. Uh but yeah, we're going to start the episode. We've got a good one for you. But go to That's messed Up dot com for LESA tickets for tickets to our show in New York on August fourteenth, and uh yeah, let's kick it.

With this awesome episode. Here we go, all right today for our two hundred and fortieth episode. If you scramble those. It's four twenty so pretty thrilling, huge milestone. Yeah, we're doing Liberties season ten, episode twenty one. Let's get into it. Another one I sort of forgot about. I remember it. It's just so convoluted and insane. It's an insane episode.

And in insane episode, I'm glad you said it before I had to.

It's like, all, like, what is it when you go to a play? What do you suspend your disbelief or whatnot? You really gotta separate my.

Break belief is hanging from a piece of floss on the ceiling by a thread, Like it is like crazy, yeah.

Thread floss situation, but you know it is it starts grounded and then whatever, We're gonna get into it. And if you are someone that you know knows this episode and isn't one of our non watching freaks, is that a good merch? I'm an I'm not matching freaks. Yeah, I'm a that's messed up non watching freak listener. Is that a cool shirt? Is that a shirt people to wear? Chopped tank? Would you guys do that? How did I pack? I? You know, I have my new tank top that says

And then like lowering your body into it and dropping to the ground.

Yeah, it's very, very spidy. Yeah, so she says the self defense class at the Y was finally put to good use. So that's, you know, a shout out for the why. And the guy is alive and he's laying in a hospital bed and a classically suited Stabler is standing over him. He awakes, he's groaning. He goes, oh, it feels like somebody put my balls in a wood chipper. And he asked, what how, and it's like, oh, well, that woman you attacked wasn't as defenseless as you thought

Wait, that is crazy that gray Lick is in the credits. But this is a cabin episode. I think gray Lick's gone by now.

Oh that's so funny. So they kicked her out but they kept her in the credit. Yeah, I think she was episode twenty one. I think she leaves earlier in the season. Oh my god, amazing, amazing. So we're back. I just that list. I don't even know who made that list, was just like a random person or a magazine, like I don't know, but that woman was very funny on the TikTok. So thanks everyone that sent it to us. And Pam said, okay, So then now we're talking to Pam.

I'm gonna talk about it a bit, Yes, And also, Linda Park in Bosh plays Lance Reddick's second wife, so his first wife is Jeffrey's aka Michelle Hurd. She was recast with another wife as the same wife. They get divorced and he's with Linda Park. She's wonderful, she's a great actor. She's in a lot of stuff. Anyway, just a little side note. I didn't want to know what to think.

I was dropping my BOSH responsibilities and this fucking podcast. I know Jesus christ is Bosh coming forgot. If you guys know him email, I got his personal email. If you know him, please let him know that we are not doing his episode without him, and he better fucking get to it. We have a lot of questions, but I was gonna say, they've done so many episodes now about sort of this, Like it's really hard because I

Something called like, oh god, I was looking it up last sear well intent yes, but that was like, yes, that was it, but that wasn't necessarily like a rape.

It was like he didn't know like, that's the same thing. Nobody thought she wanted a rape fantasy and they.

Were both getting double catfished, right, It wasn't like one person was totally out of it.

Like I think they were. Yeah, it is similar. It intent is totally similar.

And then it's basically what happened in that second episode that Amy Landecker did where actually actually her third episode where she just came back in the most recent season where her husband set her up to be attacked, but that was based.

On the Frenchwoman and then this one.

I'll get into it later, but it's like I because there's rape by proxy, where an attacker makes another person attack someone, but that's kind of like the episode that we did where somebody called and said, I'm from the FBI, take that girl's clothes off. Do this start like oh the Robin Williams. Yes, that's like authority. That's like make

That's one sided. But yeah, I'm also fine with it being someone's fantasy of wanting to be attacked in like a controlled way. I don't like someone trolling to do fake rape, like I don't like that. Yes, well we'll get into this more. Also when I but, yeah, all right, I assumed you were going to get into it. But obviously I have so many questions discussion. I mean, yeah, I have a lot of thoughts and but no thoughts at all. Truly, I'm uttering here. I have no thoughts.

They're like, they have to know where you live so that they can stay away from it.

Yeah, I'm telling you Castration needs to be back in the in the vibe, back in Stalking Castration. I bet people would behave I mean, I don't know, maybe obviously not Like the death penalty doesn't stop people from committing cris not a deterrent. Not a deterreent. That's the way. Okay. So then Benson says, we'll get you another one here.

It's also like hilarious that with all of Stabler's experience, he's like, if I just tell this guy to move on and leave this girl alone, he'll do it.

Like that's not how psychomen are.

They keep doing it until they kill her, Like that's how it is, Like, Oh, I just gave him a stern talking to you and told him it was time to move on from Pam.

And it worked. It has happened never on this show. And then but then Tyler goes, I was defending myself from both of those bitches. And Stabler is like, oh, so she's a bitch because you ran into her on a sidewalk and lost it. And he says, I don't lose control, and he's like wagging his head around, he's putting his foot on the table. He's very animated, and he's acting a fool, and Benson goes, no, you have

And with all the people screaming stop, stop now, and Cabot's like, he has restraining orders and orders of protection, like he has criminal activities, so like stop whatever, whatever you're trying to do is not working.

The judge reprimands both lawyers for talking over each other, and they apologize, like scold the little children as well, and the judge talks and says, obviously, we can't trust this man to come back to court on his own volition, so I'm revoking the bail and he is gonna be held in remand Tyler starts flipping out, screaming I have rights. Cabot says, you can have a toothbrush. He screams at him,

Where do we think Munch is going for the weekend? Do we think Hampton Poconos? Yep, He's going to the Pocono Poconos. But that's such a long drive, Like maybe he is just going to the Rockaways, Like where is he going to merit?

Like what? Because he's leaving with his girl? And who is this girl? Not his wife, not one of his wife? Who is it? Who do you think he's dating? Where are they going? Beat? But I don't think he would beach, Like, I can't imagine Munch at the beach. Did he when is the Carol Caine episode?

I feel like maybe he reconnected with like that Zebrus she got back off her meds sebs.

Yeah yeah, I'm like so interested. Maybe upstate, maybe one of those hippie towns like Beacon or something, or what's suck like to you know, she likes the vintage shop, and then we'll lead a you know, a farm to table born. I just can't imagine him on vacation or taking off his shades or his suit, Like, I really can't the liberty Zebrasus. The next episode, oh whoa?

And the next episode he does like run into his old girlfriend Gwen.

Wonder this girlfriends it's funny.

I wonder if multiple episodes in a row that involved Bunch's love life.

But I wonder if Munch's girlfriend's like, what the fuck are you doing with Carol Kane and he's like, it's for a case. I'm telling you, she's ill. She slapped me today, she's my eggs. I am assassination for him. That's actually what they're fucking doing. I bet they're going to the Holocaust Museum Info Festival. Or something. Yeah, they're gonna go look at military boats. It's like, yeah, all right,

I mean like he's like, she if you're not taking me to the Poconos, as you said, this is the last chance, monk.

But Benson and Saylor need to be in court and so you know, rapes never stop, so we need you and Benson. Okay, So then Bunch really wants to go on this vacation. So he goes to Benson goes, any chance will be a last minute and minute like plead out, And Benson looks horrified and goes, well, I hope not, Munch. It's but I don't know if he pleads guilty, why not? I mean, I don't know, Let Munch fuck is that merch?

And I'm a judge with extra extra privilege, so help me out. Like it's just hilarious, Like this guy's trying to be so moral, and then he's like, now I found the most loose cannon cop I could who's not gonna get too messy.

You know, I also don't even think he knows. He just loves a quote. He I bet his instagram is all quotes, his pinterriss I.

Also love a guy who's murdered, like twelve fucking kids disposed of their bodies, horrible thing.

And he's like, I just hate judges.

They're just giving me too long of a sentence from my twelve horrible crimes.

Like, come on, it's not fair. I should be able to murder any kid I want. So we're back in court and the judge has coins on his desk and he's playing with these coins and talking more quotes. It's a very poetic judge. So he's organizing the coins and he's talking about Thomas Jefferson, who I think has not

But he doesn't have a text. They zoom in on his like very old ass phone and he doesn't have a text.

And okay, so now we're with an old man with tubes in a cement room double window, you know, we're in prison. And the guy goes, ah, yeah, nice, try to Stabler, but stable like flips his phone shut on the judge. And the evil guy goes, that's Marshall's daddy, wasn't it, And you should let me talk to him. I would have told him I was sweet. This his boy was pudgy little thing like making love to a big, squishy,

Brian Denney just kept passing out from morphine or whatever. He just like he he'll choke you physically, but if you're on oxygen, you're making it easy for him because he's just gonna.

Binge off that little tube. So the guy obviously has labored breathing and goes, let go, I can't tell you if I'm dead, moron, and Sala goes, yeah, that's why you should tell me now. I mean, Staylor's stone cold in this. He's gonna kill those dudes. And this guy starts struggling hard, grabbing for the tubes, and Silber goes,

He was an actor named Victor Arnold, playing Royally Dotson, and he he passed away in twenty twelve.

But he was a.

Actor in a lot of stuff. I guess a bunch of movies. Yeah, I don't know, forty movies from fifty six to twenty eleven, The Edge of Night, the Best of Everything.

He was in soap operas. Oh, it was in Serproco, the TV series I Go Wow Surproco. I just needed to confirm it wasn't the Bell guy, even though I knew in all my deep, darkest soul it's not. They're different faces, they are different men, you know. It's just like yes, So anyways, we're back. The judge will not stop looking at Tyler, like you can see Tyler is

Yeah, it's crazy. It's one of the craziest twists of all time. Like he Cabot was looking for a different judge. This guy just happened to walk up and this is the judge that's presiding over his own child's case.

Who's it's just too crazy and Tyler's the judge's son and asks to recuse himself obviously, like even though he's broken every rule and nothing's mattered, but like now yourself, like aren't you going to jail for assault? Like Stahla goes, but wow, and Roy never let any of his victims live, And the judge says this has nothing to do with Roy. He but he got decades of pleasure out of tormenting

The kids the same age as this guy who took all these kids and from the.

Said he did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it sucks that, like this judge's son was just being tormented by this man in the same city, you know, like they stayed in New York or no, Rhode Island, whatever. Okay, but it's like.

Also, if everybody's looking for one looking at one massive crime, it is going to be other people take advantage of that. It's like what's happening in La right now with these guys just taking people off the street. You think that's not a good opportunity for somebody to just go buy a police badge at an army surplus store and grabs.

Anyone they want. It could happen easily. You know, Tyler is not the man he would have been if him and Shanna raised him, and he knows they preach personal responsibility, but it's not Tyler's fault. He was tortured, and that like the judge feels bad because he should have kept looking for him and set him free and saved him. And Benson says, well, how could you have known? And he goes, well, he was so smart. He used to count the change in my pocket and he was only

I feel like ten might be one of the most unhinged seasons, but they're really just like swinging for it, like doing crazy episodes. Okay, let's get in to the cases.

Yeah, just everything.

There's a bunch of stuff like on the wiki and online about cases. This might be based off of that I really don't agree with. It's just kind of about like child killers, like that Dotson could be based on. Yeah, there's like a ton of child killers that I guess Dotson could be based on, but he's not the.

Focus of the episode. So two parts.

The first part of this episode is obviously this like catfishing, rape setup, which again I don't I don't have a name for it. Everywhere I looked, I could not find one that happened before this episode took place. But wildly I found one that happened six months after this episode aired, and it's extremely similar. Like in September of two thousand and eight, a woman named Sarah Kostovni of Casper, Wyoming, she met a marine named Jebediah James Stipe.

Ye oh yeah, don't don't go on a date with a Jebediah. They grew up in a religious bad home. Like that's not a well kept person. If you know a normal Jebediah, let us know, I think our dms will be empty. Well, jebedi is twenty seven, he's from Carbon, Wyoming. He's like on leave from the Marines. She meets him, they spend a few days together. This is in September.

Spent a few days there. She was like, he was different in California. I knew I was probably never going to see him ever again. Okay, So I just want to recap that she spent a total of seven days with this man, with maybe some texting in between.

It was two thousand and eight.

I don't even know what kind of phones they had, but some texting in between. In July two thousand and nine, she meets a man and they become engaged, and she texts everybody in her address book on her phone, I guess and says I'm getting engaged. Stipe calls her Jebediah and asks for her address he can send her an engagement gift, and unfortunately, the stemless wine glasses never arrived because this guy was an absolute psychopath. On December fifth, two thousand and nine, he posts on Craigslist.

But this is so of the time, Like thank god we have websites now, Like I would never just like everyone in my phone book, I have people saved as like Jim the bar, Like what are you talking about? People pay saved us don't pick up? Yeah, Like you're just why blanking. I'm not blaming the victim here. It's just like the change of times, Like I just I can't imagine just being like I'm gonna let everyone because we would post on social media.

Yeah yeah, And she was just like, I'm engaged, and so he asked her for her address. Then in two thousand and nine, December two thousand and nine, he so again. This episode came out in May of two thousand and nine, and this is like happening exactly six months later in December of death.

I don't like when this happens, though. I don't like when things are like immediately right after an episode, I'm like, what is going on.

Because You're like, did they get it from that or is it parallel? Think like, is it just like a thing that a coincidence. It's just too I am sure this happened before two thousand and nine. I am sure, but this is the only case I can find.

I'm literally looking up everything.

I'm looking up rape fantasy website, like posting as the other person, like, I mean, I was googling everything, and this is the only case that pops up. It's also possible that this happened. I mean, this is kind of the golden age of posting and websites and personals and stuff like that that wasn't like as big before. I'm sure it has happened before and that that's where these writers got the idea, but I cannot find it so

And.

Yeah, he was a marine. He was stationed at twenty nine Palms and somehow the girl Sarah spotted the ad after it was up for two days and called the cops and it was removed, but not before one hundred and sixty people responded to the ad. One hundred and sixty people were like, I have no concern for women. I'll do it in two days on Craigslist. Among them was a twenty six year old named ty Oliver McDowell. He messaged the poster and exchanged ims with them.

The person he.

Thought was Sarah, and quote unquote, Sarah told him all her fantasies, including quote humiliation, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and then Stipe gave McDowell Sarah's address and on December eleventh, McDowell broke into her home, tied her up, bound and gagged her, held a knife on her, and raped her. And he later told detectives. He thought he was helping her live out this rape fantasy she had. He was arrested.

It had to have been some sort of safe word, Like what do you mean you just bring out a knife and tie a woman to a chair?

I mean, a safe word is such a thing that a woman would have to suggest, And there was no woman involved in this at all, you know, like these men are yeah, no, stupid, you know, And yeah, he was arrested. He was charged with first degree sexual assault, aggravated kidnapping, and aggravated burglary. And then Stipe was arrested and charged with They obviously did be boot bops and figured out that Stipe was the one that was messaging with this guy and charge he was charged with conspiracy

But yeah, but I think not having a safe for the night, like there's all these things that like just go into Yeah, stupid. It's just it is like it is wild to me. He also gets sixty years. He gets the same amount of time as the guy who perpetrated the whole thing. I wonder why he pled, if he didn't even get a deal, why he would plead guilty or maybe he felt really bad. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know. You're right, it seems like you would try to say no, but maybe there was he thought

McDowell admitted to the three counts of first degree sexual assault, one count of aggravated kidnapping, one count of aggrivatd burglary. He also got sixty sent serving that at Wyoming State Penitentiary, and both will not be up for parole until April thirtieth of twenty fifty, at which point I think.

This like never happens on our podcast, where I'm like, wow, cool sentence.

Yeah, they just got a lot of time. They'll be in their seventies, I think when they get out. I think, yeah, because it's forty years and they were like in their late twenties when it happened. Yeah, Craigslist faced no penalties as federal law protects Internet sites from liability for their user's actions, which is according to m Ryan Callo, who is a residential fellow at Stanford Law School's Center for

We get and this helper just like an idiot drifter who is down to do it, like didn't care.

He literally has nothing to do with this stuff. Like after he gets the boy in the car, he's kind of like he's described as like a simpleton and like kind of low iq and you.

Think he believe the church story. Did he know what was for the crime, like did.

He the What I read was that Parnell told him he needed to help him get a boy for religious reasons, Like he told him.

It's oh, it's like for religious reasons.

I want to help turn this boy more Christian or so I have no idea, but like religious, you know, always under the blanket of religiosity. So he told this boy, we're going to give you a ride home. They're telling that, they're telling Stephen, Oh, this guy's Reverend Parnell, So he thinks he's a church leader.

So for a couple of days, he keeps calling.

He keeps going, oh, I'll just call your parents and see if you can stay another night, and going, oh, you can stay another night.

So he's just staying and then the boy's like begging to go home.

And then Parnell tells Stephen, oh, actually, your parents abandon you because they can't afford this many kids and they don't want you anymore. So I went to court and I got legal custody of you. So your mind, child now,

It's terrible. It's terrible.

So from seven to fourteen, this kid, Stephen is with this kid, and as an adult, later Stephen goes, I probably could have fled because he gave me a lot of freedom. He let me drink, he let me smoke, he let me drive his car like around his property or whatever.

And he's like, I could have fled. I just didn't know where to go.

And I believed that adults don't lie, so I believe my parents had given me up, and like, where am I going to go?

You know?

So as an I mean, it's like we hear this with tons of people, the people the girl who was taken and told that there was something called the Company that was going to kill her whole family if she tried to leave her. Colleen Stan like, your family's not looking you know people that they say, your family's not looking for you. So it's like, where would I even

Yeah.

On February fourteenth, nineteen eighty, Parnell asks one of Steven's friends, who's a teenager named Randall Porman, to help him kidnap a five year old named Timothy White. And you see the little boy in a little bit of this documentary that I'm going to talk about later. And he's like blonde,

You know.

He kidnaps him, and Steven sees how upset Timothy is, and he's like, I'm going to free this kid and I'm going to reunite him with his family. So two weeks after, he's kidnapped on March first of nineteen.

Eighty, but he wasn't able to put it in his head that might have happened to him. Not yet, no, kay yeh.

So two weeks later, March first, nineteen eighty, Parnell's at work, Stephen, who is fourteen, takes little Timothy and carries him on his back and they hitch hike forty miles to the little boy's hometown of Yukaya or Ukaya, California, but they can't find his house. So they go to a police station and blah blah blah, blah blah blah. Everyone's been looking for Timothy. He's been going for two weeks. The next morning, police pick up Parnell for kidnapping both boys.

And he's like a hero, this kid.

Yeah, and the following year, Parnell gets tried and convicted in nineteen eighty one of kidnapping the boys in two separate trials. Now, this is so fucked. He gets sentenced to seven years for kidnapping Timothy White. Okay, then he gets an additional seven years for kidnapping Steven, but because of some weird statute or.

The way the law's written.

I literally I watched the documentary like I could not figure out why this is happening. And it being his second defense, he only had to serve twenty months of that. So he gets like nine years total for this and don't worry, like, because the justice system rocks so hard in our country, he gets paroled after serving five years for good behavior. Like I just wrote in my notes,

I don't know why.

The kids said on trial they found nude photos of Stephen M. Parnell's home when he was a child. I mean he was a child the whole time he was found at fourteen, but when he was younger as well, and his family did not want him to talk about the details of the molestation, like his that we get into it, like his father, like you know, they did not want him to talk about this. They're like, don't that's not your business, Like don't bring that stuff up

So poor Stephen.

Obviously, when he got home, his life was tough, like he had been allowed to smoke, to drink, to do whatever he wanted, and now his family expects their seven year old to come back to them. But he's like a fourteen year old and he's like kind of acting like a grown man because he's been treated like that. To some extent, his relationship with his father is very strained.

Well, you know, I believe he had some good times with that guy. I think he had some good times. I mean also bad times.

We don't want hm to remember the bad times, but there were you know, he had some good It's like, what the fuck.

They're just like not comprehending trauma.

In any way these people, and you know, this poor fucking kid, he's adorable. He's such a little heart throb. He comes back fourteen, he's so cute. He's going on all these talk shows, like Bravely talking about this ordeal.

He went on.

Everybody's asking him all these questions. He did get married in nineteen eighty five to a seventeen year old named Jody Edmondson. He sold his story for thirty thousand dollars, which eventually became the NBC mini series I Know my first name is Steven, which forty million people watched, which at the time, it's like we all had appointment. Tell everybody was watching stuff like this, like made for TV movies, miniseries,

Why? Why? Why is the sentence so little?

And no one's answering, and no one answers it in the door like it's some kind of statutes or whatever like in the state that it makes no sense to me. But he just gets almost no time for seven years of forcible kidnapping. And I don't know why they didn't go after any sexual abuse charges. I thought maybe the kid wouldn't testify and then you kind of maybe can't do you can't have a without being able to confront your accuser or whatever. But they the kid said in trial,

Who knows.

I mean, if he went to jail in eighty one, he served five years. From eighty six to two thousand and two, we hear nothing from him. That's a pretty fucking long time, almost, Like what is that that sixteen years where he's definitely out there fucking molesting kids, for sure, But in two thousand and two he's back on his bullshit. He tries to buy a child for five hundred dollars.

He's seventy one.

He's suffering from much like the killer in the episode Dotson, he's suffering from diabetes and emphysema. He'd had a stroke. He needed around the clock care. He solicited his caregiver's sister to help procure a child with quote a clean rectum, so obviously the intention for sexual abuse was clear. He had the cash ready to buy the birth certificate and pay for the child on him. So he was arrested and he was eventually convicted of kidnap, of attempting to

They one.

He got twenty five to life under California's three strikes law. I don't know why his sodomy charge didn't count or whatever towards the three strikes, but he did barely got any time for what he did to Steven. But he eventually did die in prison at seventy six from natural causes, you know, five years later. So he spent a total of ten years in jail for probably ruining the lives of dozens of children. But we only know about a

They brought him in. He confessed. Authorities believed that he might have many more victims.

There's like a few victims that they've listed that all disappeared at the time that he was killing people in the area, and he was sentenced to life. He's currently sixty three years old serving life at Pelican Base State Prison. But some people wanted to posture that he was jealous of all the attention his brother was getting, like because when he came back, he was like a celebrity.

He was like, but he was also bullied, like kids were calling him the F word, slur, kids were making fun of him for things that happened to him when he was kidnapped. But his older brother was like, oh, but he's on TV. He's getting all this attention this and that.

But then people also say that Carrie had these fucked up tendencies even as like a child.

Well, I'm also questioning the parents the original parents like we're not gonna get therapy. Our kids are k like, oh, he probably had good times, Like they're probably twisted fucks too. Yeah.

Well, I'm gonna recommend the documentary for our what would Sister Peg Do? So I'll get to that. But that has a whole section about Carrie. So if people want to learn more about Carrie and like his crimes, that is in that doc as well.

But I wanted to keep it.

More to the crime focused in this episode, so I didn't get fully into all of Carrie's crimes.

But yeah, it's pretty leak.

But the parents, the mom's interviewed all through the documentary and she's I would just.

Say a little bit too Lucy goosey with like the.

Way she's talking, like yeah, Steven had some good times there and like, yeah, my husband just didn't believe in therapy, so he didn't go to therapy.

But you know, like she's just really I don't know.

Yeah, And the sisters are interviewed in the doc as well. The sisters are interviewed and one of the sisters goes, I feel bad.

I was such a nosy little sister that I kept asking Steven about all the things that happened to him, that this guy Parnell commit these crimes that he committed against him. And he eventually told me, and I wish I never asked because they were like, why do you wish you didn't ask because now you know? Or because he had to tell you?

And she's like both, I mean, like now I know, like the horrific stuff he went through, and but you know, it seemed like he was really trying to turn his life around. Like there's cute pictures of his kids like playing with him and stuff, Steven Stainer, and it's just so sad he got to this accident, and you know, but he had such a like fucking tough life. Kidnapped at seven, returned at twenty four, a moment of minor celebrity.

It all together.

But I think he had substance abuse issues also, probably from his trauma. But being allowed to start drinking when you're fourteen, you know, it's fucked but in this episode, it's thirty years that he's gone, so.

It's less in real life, but still not great. It's so fucked up. It's like you need contingency play. You have to like tell your kid, I would I would never give you up. Yeah, I would never sign you away. Yeah.

But I wonder, like, yeah, I wonder. I mean, not that they're always the same writers, but like this is a this is a dawn to noon episode, and she writes apparently a lot of the dark ones. But I wonder where she got the idea for the catfish thing, because, like I said, I couldn't find anything from before that. But maybe there were like thwarted attempts that they read about.

You know, they were like.

People posting stuff like cause it's not like revenge. What do you call revenge child's what do you call revenge?

Sex of use images? Is that what they're called? No?

Iways, there was some kind of thing, but we looked it up, but like it doesn't feel like that because you're instigating an actual attack, you know.

Yeah, so it's cyber exploitation or non consensual porn.

Yeah, okay, cyber exploitations. It's like it's it's like there's no name for it.

It's kind of like a well, yeah, because.

Catish, she seems a little bit too cute. Catfish she is like, oh, by the way, I told you I was like a hot twenty year old, but I'm actually a sixty year old woman living in Canada. Like you know, catfish, she seems a little bit too cute for like setting up a post to get someone attacked. So I don't know if there's a name for it, but we got to find out. But anyway, we have a we have an interview coming up, so God cleanse your palette, as we try to do from this horrible crime.

But or image based sexual abuse, often laws use more precise language like intimate visual depiction whatever. We just shouldn't be calling it porn like fuck. Then it's easier to shame the person and be like, well, you shouldn't have even taken Why did you do that? Why'd you do that? And it's like yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, yeah, get us to the guest, Get us to the guest.

Our guest today is a musician and actor who you may recognize from appearances on shows like Rubicon, Blue Bloods, and as the Double Booked Soup guy Eric from Sex and the City, but we know him best as the kidnapping victim turned malicious stalker ex boyfriend Tyler Brunson slash Marshall Kohler. Please enjoy our chat with the wonderful John Patrick Walker.

We're very excited to have you a classic s VU.

Yeah really truly, such an insane episode.

Totally bonkers.

I don't know a lot. You get to freak out in different rooms.

I get to chew the scenery, man, I get to cry. I get to like run from the courtroom and get tackled by police.

It's like when people ask me, like, if I can meet an s V you, what what I do? I say, I want to freak out in the courtroom.

Yeah, that's total.

But you also get a dog bite, which I liked as well.

Dog bite, there were injuries. I mean I watched it this morning. I haven't seen that long. Oh yeah, oh my god.

I just like our listeners aren't going to see you, but I do just want to let them know that your bowl cut is not happening anymore. That is a that was the character choice, I guess. Was that how you were wearing your hair at the time.

No, no, no, that was a character choice. You know, I had learned the hard way being a guest actor on some shows in my you know, my early in my career, that you you got to show up with an idea.

You know.

I made the mistake early on of being like, well the director will tell me what to do, and like a, you know, they don't have time for that bullshit. They don't, they don't care. You got to come in with your character. And so with this particular gig, I knew. I was like, I'm and I put the hair down and I just was like, I'm going to make a choice, make a bold choice, and go for it. And you know, it was fun.

What did you see for him? Like is he cutting his own hair? Is this some trauma? Is he going to the same barn?

You know, it's probably cutting his own hair. He's not doing well, he's he's he's he's yeah, but but he.

Does just a high job like clearance job at the Detarmament of Defense and living in Manhattan. It is like kind of crazy.

Yeah, yeah, I know he was. I mean, he was probably making some money, but yeah, he had issues. The guy had some serious issues.

And you get kidnapped, you buy a molester, it's going to affect your love life, You're.

Going to be a stalker. You know, these things all lead to each other.

But what are your thoughts when you watch it? So you know, this was like twelve years ago, maybe more.

Like what did you feel two thousand and nine.

Yeah, it was literally almost sixteen years ago. And again, we always appreciate people coming on our podcast to talk about something they did sixteen years ago, so thank you.

You know, what I remember interestingly is, you know, I had auditioned for SCU a lot, as all like young actors in New York at that time had done, and was frustrated with the fact that I hadn't booked, you know,

Like and like tomorrow right because they were already shooting.

You had to be like they were already shooting. So I'm like, Okay, the hair is getting combed forward. I gotta I gotta walk in there with my character. I gotta be ready to kick ass. And yeah, so it was like it was a really funny and exciting way to kind of book the gig.

You really had all night, huh. Yeah.

So when you book the when you get like an audition, obviously you only get like a scene, maybe two scenes, right, So you didn't know like the whole premise of this script. When you got the full script, were you like, what an actual hell is going on here?

Like, no, this is so bunkers get like aud twist. It's so nuts.

It's like a Darth Vader moment at the end, like oh my god, you're my father. Wow.

And he likes your hand through the jail bars you.

Know, yeah, we like embraced through the jail bars. Yeah, in my orange jumpsuit. I mean I got to do everything. I really got.

To show everything.

It was really you had a lot of face to face with Stabler kept going you gotta move on, as if like there's not some kind of heavy mental illness that's happening when someone is stalking and attacking their ex.

He's like, come on, she's not worth it. Move on. It's totally guy talk.

But like how was working with the with with Maloney, with the cast.

They were totally nice. You know, these people were just total pros. They'd already done a bajillion episodes and you know, who knew they were going to do a bajillion more. I mean you figured they it would probably run forever. It did, but they were total pros, totally nice. Mariska especially was like very friendly and very sweet.

You know.

The other thing I learned technically when you're a guest on the show is that they always shoot your coverage first. So you're like the guy who's nervous and in the outsider, but they're shooting you first. Why so that it gives the stars of the show a chance to like do it a few times without having to be on camera because they're still like learning their lines. It's like episode one million, Okay, what am I doing in this scene?

I'm also wondering if it's because you the guest stars usually have the emotional hard ship to do.

But really, if they were going to do a favor of the guests, they would shoot you last. In other words, yeah, because then it gives you a chance. You've done it now a few times where the camera's not on you, but you're like doing the scene, rehearsing, getting comfortable with it, and then they turned the camera around. Okay you but

And it was fun. Yeah, freak, yeah, freak. But the quote, he has a quote that's so relevant today that a tyrant will always find a pretext for their tyranny. Like, dude, such a good quote.

I got a little some goosebumps this morning when I was watching that. I was like, timely, no.

That because I'm watching one about this guy who just did a rampage and is killing quote unquote anchor babies. And that was from season ten too.

It's just like, yeah, yeah.

It's sad how much it hasn't changed or gotten worse.

I don't know, right right, right, No, I know it's back. We're living in strange times for sure.

Yeah, now they are all right, well we mentioned it, we can move on. We've touched on it.

We love to touch on fascism just we just yeah, touch sean of fascism of the fash. But well, like we we love a courtroom meltdown. But I'm struggling to think of another person who actually had to sprint out of the courtroom and be chased print that happened before, Lisa, that you could think of, Like, I can't think of

That a little? You know? We had these guys dressed as cops and they had to wrestle me and they were like just really struggle against them and they won't hurt even just really you know, and I mean it was so much fun. It really was. It was like an actor's dream as far as like a guest role on SVU, because I ended up honestly, I don't remember if it happened before I did this episode or after, but I within a year or so on either side.

Yeah and unusual because like the victim would have more of the freaking earth stuff after like you're you were the guy.

Yeah, I was like the p and a victim in a.

Sense, yes, which is something that the show does all the time.

Right right, And we haven't mentioned that. I also got to go on hunger Strike.

Oh yeah, you looked real rough then, and they.

Put the circles under the eyes of you know.

You looked rough. Yeah, that was good. That was good.

Yeah, you got you were so dramatic strike like, but the hunger strike implies that you are innocent and you are not, like you know, like you're like I'm not eating until this tyranny fall, and it's like, but you did it, I know, I kind of yead No.

I was just going to say, it's like, in a way, by the end of the show, we've forgotten a about the victim, the woman, I mean, she kind of it's not really about her for the last like, you know, a quarter of the show, it's about me and the dad. So it's very funny how it just feered away from the actual crime. I committed to this kind of emotional reunion with even.

The guy who ended up physically assaulting her also is on the standing like I'm the victim here, like.

I thought it was a rape fantasy whatever.

But you're also trolling the sites. You're obviously a problem.

So you like have done a bunch of TV stuff, But are you a theater person as well.

I've had a very you know, strange and varied career. I've done a little bit of sort of everything. I'm currently working on the world premiere of The New Wrinkle in Time, musical which Inger's crossed. I don't want to, you know, jinx it, but I think there's a very good chance it'll be coming to New York. Okay, don't quote me on that, even though I just said it

Oh that's awesome.

Ringle and Time is like very Madeline Langele is the author of that. Yes, like that's like from my childhood. That's like a childhood. So I think like a lot of people that are into nostalgia are going to.

Want to go. It's a beloved book. And the thing is young kids are still reading it and loving it. Like that's what's kind of it's a brilliant thing to adapt for the stage because you've got to You've got a built in fan base of young kids who love this book. And for good reason. It's a it's an amazing book.

How are you enjoying? Are not your time in DC? But also finish what you're going to say.

Well, I was just going to say, interestingly, my wife, the actor Hope.

Davis familiar, We're going to talk to you about that.

Okay, okay, she and this is obviously coincidence, but she did the fiftieth anniversary audiobook of A Wrinkling Time Crazy that came out, like I want to say, six seven, eight years ago, just coincidence. So it was funny because when I first got the workshop of this Wrinkling Time musical a year ago, we did we came down here to do a workshop for a couple of weeks. I had not had the chance to listen to her reading

Oh.

Do you remember when your wife did her episode of Sview Born Psychopath where she plays the mother of a very very scary psychopath, scary path.

It's scary. I know, I know she had a lot of fun doing that. I think that was more recently than mine if I recall that.

Yes, yeah, hers was like season fifteen or something was season ten?

Ten? Yeah?

Ten? Yeah. So yeah, so she's.

Are you like giving her tips? You're like, here's how you get in there and handle SVU.

They're gonna do your coverage first, honey, So just be ready, ready, and comb the hair forward. I think that'll work. No, yeah, she's she's well versed with on screen acting, so she didn't really need to.

Any You guys are a hip, cool couple.

Yeah, we try, you know, we try to stay the.

Red carpet photos are cool. You guys look you look great. Are you guys based in New York or LA?

We're basically lived in LA for six years from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty three, but we've been before that and since then we've been back in New York.

Okay, so we are.

We are in Brooklyn. We have a house in Brooklyn.

We talked to a lot of actors where their partner also acts, and we always ask.

Like, oh, do you guys like run scenes together? Do you help each other with auditions or do you just like keep it separate with each other?

Okay, no, we totally do. I mean you know, depending on what it is. I mean, my kids have helped me with auditions, yeah, because they're now like a college age and but my wife definitely has and vice versa. You know.

I like that the kids are involved.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Are they doing the following in the family business or what you know.

My eldest daughter just graduated college literally.

Last weekends, coct and.

For years, thank you. For years as a kid talked about wanting to be an actor. In fact, it was funny because there were several Christmases around the time Georgie was like a tween where she would give her Christmas wish list to mom, you know, to my wife, and it would be like whatever, you know, toys and whatever. And then I'd get a separate list that would always

A guy in there with like uh yeah an eyes.

Yeah you know, okay, rolling.

Wearing a head piece, wearing like exactly microphone exactly.

But but in recent years has has kind of decided maybe maybe not to pursue the acting. So we're like relieved enough anyway, and is now thinking of going to nursing school. So we're oh, yeah, yeah, wants to help people and one.

Of the professions that I don't think AI will be able to take over as well.

A great idea.

Yeah, exactly.

I have little kids, and I'm like, I don't know what they're going to do, Like by.

The times, will there be jobs, maybe robot maintenance. I don't know what it's going to be.

They'll be robot maintenance. So that's yeah, I don't know. Man, Yeah, maybe it'll just be universal basic income by then.

We can dream, can't we. Yeah, well, I'll talk about another classic show. You were in Sex and the City. Hello, the guy who brings soup.

They double booked us.

It was all the double booking.

Yeah, yeah, that's another classic episode.

Yeah.

That was also super fun, super fun.

And that time period has a lot of overlap between SVU and Sex and the City Men. There's a lot of on the way. Yeah, there's just a lot.

It's exciting totally. Yeah, that was like I think that was nineteen ninety nine that I shot that. That was episode season two of Sex and the City. It was still like a new show. It's so funny to think of it that way, but it was kind of like a new this new.

Thing, Like I mean, besides the fact that you're doing this musical where I'm assuming you sing in the musical, you also are like doing music as a musician, Like.

Yeah, I've been, I've been, you know, making records and putting out music, uh actively for like almost like thirteen fourteen years. I was always obsessed with music as a kid, was like writing songs when I was a little kid, was in bands like in high school and college. But as my career in my twenties, you know, got going and I got busy, I sort of put it to the side. But it was that funny thing where like in my early forties, I kind of rediscovered this this

Yeah, we talked to another actress like earlier that had similar thoughts that was doing music and was like, yeah, it's just like the acting is so much rejection, and with the music, I can just make my music, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah, and now is so easy to put like to share it with the world now, you know. Obviously getting large amounts of people to listen is another challenge, but I don't really that's not really why I do it. I do it because I need to. I have this need and just there's nothing I love more than being in a recording studio with musicians, making you know, recordings of music that I've written. It just gives me extreme, you know pleasure.

How would you describe your music.

I'm looking at the I'm I was looking at your Instagram and I was like, it was I was wondering if it was like a folky Americana type thing.

But I could be totally incorrect.

Some some of it is, but I mean it's I've always had a fairly eclectic just taste in music. So there's there's real like rock and roll kind of stuff. There's kind of more indie rock kind of stuff. There's you know, country ish. I mean, I've made a couple of records down in Nashville. My most recent recordings I made in Philadelphia with an incredible musician friend of mine named Kirby Cybert. So it runs the gamut. There's even kind of jazzy, some jazzy ish, you know kind of

All right. We'll love people's that's what's your instabio. The order is singer, songwriter, actor, father, husband.

You know that is really when I when I rediscovered music in my forties, I really suddenly felt like almost that acting was like my day job in a funny way. I mean, and it's not to say that I don't take great pleasure from acting. But anyway, there's just something about the singer songwriter stuff that that kind of fills me in a deeper in a deeper way than you know, because it's it's expressing my own ideas and thoughts and feelings and stuff like that. It was really around the

Yeah, that's so beautiful. Yeah, how did you? And how did I was gonna ask how did you and your wife meet? Did you guys meet? Being on like a show together, like a project?

We were set up by a mutual friend, a theater director, a guy named Nicholas Martin, and and so she and I had worked with him, but never together, and he kind of felt like we would make a great couple, so he set us up. We met at his sixtieth birthday party at Cafe Undoutois, which is a you know, sort of storied, you know, theater restaurant right in Times

Wow, that's crazy.

You guys have been around as long or a little long for then SVU as a.

Show, a ninety ninety nine premiere date for both things. It feels like around.

We've been around since ninety eight, ninety eight. Yeah, yeah, wow, So it's it's been a very good marriage.

Very that's amazing. That's so lovely to hear. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.

This was really such a such a pleasure you guys, Thank you so much.

Yeah, And this will come out in a couple of weeks and hopefully people will go see Wrinkle in time and I hope we see you in Wrinkling on Broadway soon.

Fingers crossed, Fingers cross.

You know, I've started now being addicted to bringing up every actor to Ted, and he loves this guy and he loves Hope. He loves them both. He's like, I haven't seen him in a while, like wonderful he's in DC. But yeah, Ted, I trust a lot, and we've according to his reviews of these people were killing it.

Yeah, I mean, you're acting coach needs to listen. He does like he does.

Okay. He also said he made his acting class watch my special. I'm like, now that's an ally. Wow. Wow.

Well, you know, I hope that this Wrinkle and Time musical comes to New York and we can all see this guy on Broadway because he was delightful and he seems like he's in this wonderful power couple married to the mom from from real uh you know, born psychopaths.

So yeah, he loves the craft. He loves the craft, he loves his children. It's fucking cute. Yeah, it's great, it's great crime.

I mean, first of all, I loved him also talking about how he made a choice going into the audition, which I think was to have his hair look that awful and it probably got him the part in the end, And I just I don't know.

This is one of those doing seriously, you shouldn't have to disc your address, like the burden of everything should not be on the person being stalked, and we I mean this is like a common thing. And talking about like violence against women, you know, it's like, yeah, they don't take it seriously. Most women are murdered when they try to leave. Restraining orders do not work, like there needs to be some sort of intervention. Oh my god, someone posted one of my clothes from one of our

Wait, I randomly in my feed speaking of like taking men's behavior seriously, and shit, this might be a reach because I'm not watching the valley, but like I have dipped into the valley. I saw this post about this woman saying that Jax is like a classic family annihilator.

Yeah you saw that too, Oh yeah, no, I definitely. I think I think they that was for our feeds for sure. I think in terms of Instagram.

Knowing what we were, like, you love family Annihilators because I am sort of weirdly obsessed with family annihilators. But I don't want Britney to get annihilated or her little baby.

No, no, no, we don't want anyone annihilated. I hope that Bravo kicks him off, but that might anger him more. I mean, I hope she's protected and doing everything right. Yeah, that's the thing. But the video, you don't want him on TV. But rock bottom no responsibility, blaming everyone. I mean to get out of rehab and go I'm I just got out of rehab. I want to go out, and a woman should not have a five bedroom house. It's like it's just psycho. Yeah, he's yeah, he doesn't

The thing about like the way that this comes back to, like this as view episode two is like, sure it sucks. This guy was kidnapped at a young age and has probably had a horrible life. But the woman that was like fully sexually assaulted his ex girlfriend, like is also going to be experiencing.

A lot of trauma going forward. But also that's on the cops, Like why didn't they investigate more? Like you just assumed this other guy took this little boy, you know what I mean, Like they had a narrow view, Like that's the whole point about investigating, Like you can't have a specific point of well we see yeah, we see that all the time with the cops.

They get an idea in their head and they're like this is what happened, and they don't even look at alternate theories.

Oh you know, I'm always looking a little on YouTube shorts. But Denzel Washington was offered Brad Pitt's part in seven and he didn't want to. Yeah, he was like mad, too dark and weird, and he goes. When I saw it, I was like fuck. But then well yeah, and then I saw Brad Pitt say, when he started reading it, he called his agent. He's like, I'm not fucking doing this, like cop retirement bullshit, and they were like, keep reading, keep reading, Brad, And I thought those were like so funny.

Yeah, because then Denzel was in The Bone Collector, which reminds me very much of seven, so but a very different Oh but you know that in Bone Collector and seven it is the same bad guy. I'm almost positive. No, no, it's not the same bad guy. The bad guy is the guy it's not Kevin Spacey. No, the bad guy in Bone Collector is the guy who has to wear the like knife dildo in seven, not but a guy who has to be a bad thing. Yeah yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, a poor, a poor, sad guy. But yeah, yeah, they're

And police, why don't you open up your scope of investigations? Like someone just snatched this boy like and you and you just assumed it was this other pedophile. I don't know. Sucks. Yeah. I just also like the idea of someone just getting molested their whole life, like what the hell?

And also, if you're some guy that's gonna like do a rape fantasy, I think that you should like check in or something in ahead of time. There needs to be like a like a wor there needs to be some kind of like check in, like, you know, so that you're not doing it to somebody that did not actually sign up for it. That guy being like I'm just so much a victim as she is. He was so mad for himself, but I'm like, you're stupid, That's what I mean. Check like check, do your due diligence.

All right? Should we move into our what would Sister Peg do? This week? For what What's the ster peg Do?

Which is our weekly segment where we direct you towards sometimes a book, a documentary, a website, an organization to give you more info about what we talked about today's episode. We wanted to point you today to the docuseriies Captive Audience Colon, a real American horror story, which details the kidnapping, abuse, and heroic escape of Steven Stainer, who I talked about that this is based on.

It also covers his serial murderer brother, Carrie.

So if you wanted more information on the fact that this poor kid that was kidnapped ended up being related to a serial killer later you can check that all out.

It's on Hulu.

We will link to it in our show notes and in a story that comes out the day this episode comes out. Those are all saved on our Instagram page under our w WSPD highlights, and our instagram is That's Messed Up Pod. Follow us for posts about episodes coming up and general way to get in.

Touch with us. Amazing and next week we'll be doing Anchor season eleven, episode ten. You can imagine not a positive one, but come see us live. We'll do something silly and obsessed with all of you. Thanks for listening. Fight Fascism definitely bye That's Messed Up as an exactly right production. If you have compliments, you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, Shoot us an email it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.