Lead w/ John Gallagher Jr.

Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on. These are our stories.

Done Done, Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up at SVU podcast.

I'm one of your hosts, Kara Klank.

And I'm the other one, Lisa Traeger. We talk SVU true crime. We have celeb guests and at first we catch up, we chit chat. We pretend I didn't just go to Kara's house to drop a load of laundry. I meet her machine. It's like we're just meeting for the first time.

We've never met. But your daughter's sticker sheets are out of this world.

Yeah, and a lot of those, like girlier ones she's not really touching. So there's like these pristine, beautiful sheets about princesses and cupcakes that she doesn't really fuck with because you know her, no.

But she was gonna give me a full princess sheet, and I was like, I can't take this from a child. It was so good, well because it had all the little friends and that's what I loved. It had Lumi air clogs, worth or you know the teapot like I liked.

Yeah, it had all the sidekicks, all the secondary characters.

Yeah, and so I enjoy little stickers of But she wanted flounder, which is cute.

Yeah.

I do have very cute children, and I am leaving them to go on tour.

With Lisa trigger on this.

For this podcast, I obviously have to plug it every single fucking show here, I am again. Well, it's so funny because when I listen to other podcasts, I hate when they do this, Like I truly cannot hit.

Fast forward fast enough. I hate myself if they don't come see us. What they gotta we gotta tell them, Yeah, we gotta let the people know.

Well people, I mean like somebody just wrote come to Denver. I go, we were there last month, and she's like, how did I miss that? So it's like I just try to announce every episode because I don't know how people are taking in their information about us. But go to That's messed up live dot com. That's got all the info you need. We are kicking off the tour in literally two and a half weeks.

From the day that this episode comes out. We're gonna be in DC.

That show is almost sold out, so please get tickets for DC and let's finish that off. But North Carolina Rally, Atlanta Rally, and Charlotte and then Atlanta.

We need you guys coming on out.

So I know it's summer and you think September is far away, but it's not, so come on out see us. And then obviously there's a million other dates on that website, but I'm only plugging the September ones because they're the ones coming up.

Soonest. And then yeah, that's messed up Live dot com check it out. What is going on? Lisa? Tell me what is the word? What is going on?

I didn't look deep into it. I just saw the headlines. I don't know if you looked deeper. And obviously we're in the time machine. Apologize if this is done and gone. But the Lizo news is shocking, upsetting. Yeah hear, it is shocked.

I very upsetting.

I just hope it's not real. I hope it's a cash grab. I hope it's something weird. I hope she didn't put a banana in someone's pussy and make someone else eat it.

Like I don't know what else to say, Like.

Yeah, that was like a sex club I think in Amster, like a strip sex club in Amsterdam. So maybe it was just like part of what was going on. It wasn't like in the dressing room like oh you know, here's a banana pussy moment.

This is a lesson to read the whole article. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no.

I woke up with like an allergy attack last night and then was just like scrolling on my phone because I couldn't get back, and I did it. I fully

Talking about the Lord. And I was like, oh fuck this.

Woman, Like but she also I can't tell some of the things that Lizzo did versus this woman, like apparently one of the dancers was a virgin and they just became obsessed with it and talked about it all the time.

And I thought that was interesting.

Given that you and I have talked many times about how virginity is like not even real.

Yeah, but also, if this woman loves the Lord, she must love that this woman's a virgin, so drop it.

Like yeah, but they said that the woman who loves the Lord would also make weird sexual comments and like, I don't know, Lizo accused the dancers of drinking before rehearsals, and like, like one woman said that they made weight comments. I mean, I hope it's not a cash crop, but it is three of them and they all were fired from.

The tour, So who knows. I guess the truth will come to light.

But well, because on Instagram at the moment, she is just she's like on vacation with her boyfriend, like she's having a good time. So because if she has PRS, she knew this was coming out, so she did Was it a shock? Did she go on vacation like because of this noose stories? I wonder what she's gonna do?

Yeah, me too.

I'm sure she's crafting a response live from vacation right now, although this will be much later of course.

Because I also like every abuser should be punished, but it just it does seem like if you're a white dude, you could truly, you know, beat Madonna with a baseball bat and then win an Oscar so like, and it's usually people of color that are punished. And so it's like we're gonna we're gonna punish her to the full extent of public opinion and the law. Like I know that,

But what's the name of the girl who was found lying about Carly?

Yeah, like for her, someone posted like you, let's all stop with the jokes and all this, because you know she's gonna be punished to the full extent of the law, like of all the like she's gonna serve more time for this fake thing than most rapists. So and it's because of like our fervor for the case.

I think, I know not I feel like she's having a mental health crisis. They just give her like you know, hospitalization as an option or something.

No, there's like a documentary on Netflix. I keep avoiding because I know it's just going to make me upset. But it's how like when people are found out guilty or like someone accuses someone of aus ault, Like there's just been an influx in people getting charged for false accusations.

Like it's like the Johnny Depp of it all.

Like that, there's just a whole documentary about just like victims of sex crimes being punished when there are abusers are not found guilty and then they're put in jail and stuff, and I'm just like never in the mood to watch it.

Yeah, that sounds rough.

I actually just googled the Sherry Peppini case because I wanted to see what happened to her.

Do you remember her? She was the woman that faked her own.

Kidnapping, but she was a white blonde woman. She did in twenty twenty two, just get sentenced to eighteen months in prison, so.

She's been punished as well.

Yeah, it's just it seems like there's more like excitement to get the liars than the rapists. Yeah, yeah, interesting, It's just it's tough. It's all tough. You usually have a fun, more fun intros. I don't know how we went from let's slately, lizz Yeah, we get we get, we can course correct. I am catching up on New York. I finally finished episode two. I'm halfway through episode three. I don't know I'm halfway. I'm no, no, I finished episode three.

I'm caught up. I'm caught up.

I started watching a little lamb up. Okay, you're caught up on Rony. What are we thinking?

I mean, Brinn is doing so much.

I get she's good TV, like definitely when she comes to the party, Like when she arrives, I'm like, Okay, this is gonna be good.

But she just feels like she's doing a lot well.

Brian moylan and his Vulture recap wrote something I loved where she was like, ugh, this isn't Southampton, but I guess this is if you don't own a house in the Hampton's, you don't get to complain about what area other people's houses are in.

And also, sag Harbor is beautiful, Like I've been there and it is gorgeous, and to me it is very like quintessential Hampton. So I don't really know what's cool and not cool.

But Evan, you don't have.

Been like a full Eva ross Katz did a full slideshow of like all of the Hampton shade of like Quog.

I mean, you don't have a already in Quog. Who does that? Like it's like what.

I'm looking at Sagharbor. Yeah, I mean you'd still have to be a multimillionaire. Is Sagharbor expensive? The most expensive area from May twenty seventeen to May twenty eighteen, So for one year it was Yeah, I mean then probably everybody bought it up and they developed another overdeveloped another area. You know, like it's Sagharbor is really beautiful. My friend lives there or has a house there, and she lives near matt Lower.

I mean, you know, very rich but also canceled.

But you know it's like that's an expensive place to be on the Hampton's for sure. But yeah, I agree, But like I also didn't understand what the big deal was with Jenna going to her house to sleep. That felt like such manufactured shit. And I don't like Jessel.

I'll say that, no, Jessel is rough.

Jessel's gonna have like a Season two full makeover, full personality chat, like she's gonna learn a lot about herself because she doesn't see herself the way she's acting. She really doesn't. I think she's gonna be horrified when she watches this footage.

I really do. I get it.

Somebody gives you something and makes you try it on, and you're like, I don't love it, but you're like, oh, thank you so much, Like I don't know, just like say thanks and move.

On, like or you make it about you, like it was an ugly piece of lingerie, but you just go, oh, it didn't fit. Yeah, I don't know, it's a little loose, but I love it, like you don't there, I don't. But it was more than the lingerie. It wasn't about the lingerie. It was her c section scar. It was about not fucking her husband into yous. It was about and then getting the most frumpy lingerie like. It wasn't

But also when she was like at an l you never want to see that on lingerie, I'm like, what, Like, why are you saying like you really wanted to be an s or an excess? I'm like, nothing I own has an s or an excess on it, and I feel pretty good.

So like, ye, I didn't like that.

I was like, it's really weird to be like, like, I don't know fat Shamy on a Housewives at this juncture in twenty twenty three.

Well, it's like I said, I don't think she's into like she married a dude.

She wasn't really that.

Hot for like, yeah, she's just she's in fashion, but is a fashion victim according to Jenna Lyons. No, the Jenna of it all, she's so mature but even like I just think Brin's maybe not smart enough because she was trying to make that connection between Jena, like and

Two so crazy? She she kind of has like Uba humor light.

We talked about this where it's just like super hot girl comedy that's not funny, it's uncomfortable, and they just are not reprimanded for it.

Did I like blame or did they? What UBA's deal is she single? Does she have any kids? Like she's just like a single gal or what like. I don't know anything. I don't remember seeing her house. I don't remember like anything about her.

Weirdly, she lives in Columbus Circle, and I've never met anyone that lives in Columbus Circle.

Well, they because I think they have those luxury buildings there, like by the Mandrion and stuff.

Sure it's just and she know, she she says she goes to the Central Park a lot. Like I'm sure she's close and like it just seems like such a wild place to live.

Yeah, that curved mall, that curved mall is just like what where are we?

I lived twenty blocks from there, and I never went into that mall. Like I think I met my friend there once for like coffee and was like where are we? Like, and my therapist was right there. I just never went into that freaking place.

Oh I peed at that mall often. I would say that was okay, But did you ever go walk around eat dinner like I did? Well before I'm moved, you know, like before you moved to a place and you're just visiting, it's like you don't know anything. So I did have like a birthday dinner up there once with my family, and then once I lived there, it's like, wait, what.

This happened to me?

A lot?

Like I remember I would visit friends in Brooklyn, and then when I moved, I was like, I can't believe we went to that bar like this firefighter bar or whatever, like everything makes more sense. So I have and there was an h and M Listen, I've been to that mall. I have, yeah, and they have a little moleskin. I'm not a Moleskin girl, but they have like a notebook little thing that I enjoyed, like a whole store or like a Kiosk. That's the word I was looking before that I could not figure out.

I was like that little thing, the little thing, the little thingy.

Oh, my niece and nephews are making fun of their dad because he got tricked by a Kiosk to buy products and they just like made fun of him.

Wait, and so I will say another thing about Rony too is I.

Was googling Brinn's ethnicity.

Only because when she get the fridge open, she goes white people, and I go, are you not white?

Because she's very like white passing to me.

So I googled it and apparently it's going to be in her storyline later.

It's not all or says Yes.

I found like one of those chummy articles that's like really shitty and like not well written, but like it's just a bunch of collections of shit about art. It's like her ethnicity and background will be a storyline in this coming season.

Yeah, but even if you're white, I think you're allowed to be like white people are insane.

Yeah, I guess it just seemed like you came, you got out of the car, and you were like, I guess this is an okay part of the Hampton's and then you can't open a modern fridge and you're like white people.

It just seemed like all over the place, like she is always they all are. I mean, that's the whole thing. And I don't know what's my idea, what is Brian Moylin's, but like they're not they are archetypes or whatever, you know what I mean, Like they're coming in with over a debt, like fifteen years of housewives to have studied, so we will never get that authenticity of just like someone who doesn't know, like even Jenna leaving and they're like that's so rude, and it's.

Like I just don't think it's that rude. I don't.

She's and she gave you the reason, and you guys keep going it's because you think you're better than us. In this house is beneath you. And it's like, I don't think Jenna thinks that at all. She's quite quiet, has not started fights, like I don't understand. Yeah, but the disease Jena Lions has does suck.

I was researching it. Oh what is it?

It's like your hair falls out, your teeth fall out, and you have scars all over your skin. That's why she's always wearing so much, so much clothes. And she has dentures and a wig not a wig of pieces. Yeah, it's like this, she has dentures. I knew something was going on with her teeth.

Well, she mentioned she had fake teeth. It's on a YouTube.

I went on a deep dive, so I don't know where it is what, But I watched a lot of press videos that Jenna Lions did to promote her eyelash company. Because your hair falls out and falls eyelashes were like too aggressive for her and she just wanted like regular ones and so she created a company.

So what are her what's her eyelashes? I don't remember, like Lucy's or whatever.

But the containers also fully biodegradable, recyclable.

And but how are they different from fake eyelashes? Are there are there individuals or like what?

Girl? I don't know. I don't know what to tell you.

They're just like lighter, maybe more natural, not as intense but easy. No, it's a strip, but like just light brown. So it's like you're just wearing lashes. You're not like I'm wearing lashes. Yeah, you're not like I'm a Kardashian totally.

Yeah. Yeah.

But she it's funny when you want you bang watch like all the like binge watch now, well I can't remember anyone watch. It is like she just talks about the same skirt over and over. She talks about the same like elements and all of her because she she has this one incredible skirt that she wore to the Meta and then to Solange's wedding and like she loves the skirt.

Wow.

Well, I've been following her on Instagram, Jenna, Yes, she's intriguing.

And when Sy is like granny, it's like, yeah, she's twenty years older than all of you.

Like, yes, even she wants to go to bed at ten and she has a six o'clock call.

I get that, Like, I mean.

It's it's like they don't realize we're okay having housewives have fun, Like we're okay with that, Like we're happy to see you guys enjoy yourselves. You don't have to fight about who's sleeping in what room, like you really don't. It's like they don't understand what we want. But I just like it, and I like I just I like them. I'm into it. It's it is a breath of fresh air,

On the flight.

But so we were watching Sailing at and Magda this one character is like, uh, you know, I'm just Latina.

It's the Latina energy.

And then you hear the producer off stage go are you Latina and she goes no, just on the inside, oh wow, But she's like it's more fun than being polish.

It's like sure, Magda, Magda baby, No, no, no, no, no, we can't actually do that. It was really funny.

But she was just really sexy dancing with a deck guy who used to be a cop. And then it found like then they mentioned his boyfriend and her boyfriend and he flipped out. He's like, you should have told me blah blah blah, and she was like, well, I'm supposed to get on a boat and go Hi. I'm MAGNI, I have a boyfriend, Like, I'm not just dance with you. It's I don't know, it's a good season. I just love it. Oh, I dropped a coin. Did you guys hear that?

Should we start?

Yeah?

We have more star dives. No, this is good.

I don't have any other feelings. Let's get going. We've got a great up for you guys today, a great interview from before the strike.

Hang out. We'll be right back hello. Today's episode is called lead Season ten, episode fifteen, taking you back to March of nine. For most years, I've been calling it Pika.

You've been calling it the peak episode. Not even how you say it is pronounced paika. And we will get to it. But if you know, you know, and a lot of you probably know, But this is a good episode. It's really twisty in turny, like so we open on doctor Gilbert Kepler, who is being sentenced. I thought this man looked familiar, so I looked him up the name. The guy's name is Lawrence Aroncio. He's been on a bunch of lawn Order original recipe. I don't think I

Couldn't believe it. Stop yep, Oh my god. And then I couldn't believe I forgot she's in this fucking episode. So it's amazing.

So that's a little connect in case you haven't figured that out. This guy, I think he's done a lot of theater and stuff like that as well. That's probably how him and Am met. But he has a decent IMDb. I just don't know what I really know him from. And anyway, this guy Kepler is being found guilty on four accounts of aggravated sexual abuse in the fourth degree. Anyone who's anyone is in the gallery. It's beens, and it's Stayblert's Kragan and then it's Grayle's little bitch Faces prosecuting.

They ask this man if he has anything to say.

I don't feel like they really do that, Like there's like a guilty verdict, like they're like, we find him guilty. They go through all accounts, guilty, guilty, geising, and then like anything to say. I don't really feel like they do that in the show most of the time. But what the guy says is I never meant these young men any harm.

Sure jam so, oh my god.

And by the way, we've scanned the audience to the gallery and it's like a lot of young boys and their fans, so we know this guy has been molesting young boys in some capacity. And his lawyer is mister Cindy Lauper aka David Thornton aka Lionel Granger. We've been this is a big episode for Lionel Granger. He is

Half a million with his own money. He's so like low tempo.

And the judge, who, by the way, is Barry Mordock, who we have seen in many, many famous episodes as a defense attorney, has now moved on up and is Judge Barry Mordoc.

He says, we'll split the baby.

Kepler can stay out on bail as long as he wears an ankle. Monitor cut to Graylex outside giving a wintry press conference. She's happy about the ruling, but she's mad that his sentence is limited to sixteen years. He violated his oath as a pediatrician, so now we're finding out this guy's a fucking pediatrician, which as someone who has a mother who's a pediatrician. And after we covered that story that you told us about, like I don't know,

And it's like get the fuck out of here, gray Lick. So now that's the credits.

At the top of act one, Daddy, Craigan, Olivia, and Elliott are back at the precinct. They're walking and talking stables, talking shit about Granger and Kepler. But Live is like, could he be right? Did we take too long to bring Kepler in? Stabler's like we played this by the book, Nit never, he never really wants to apologize for anything.

Also an lol because in the real world, yes, IAB investigate the cops, but in this twisted handa universe. He is evil because he's trying to hold us the cops still a standard.

Right, and so Cragan's like, civil suits aren't your jurisdiction, Dog, and he's like yeah, unless you guys fucked up, and Olivia's like, we nailed the guy and got a conviction. And Tucker's like, well, then why did the commissioner send me to clean up the steaming pile of crap you left at his doorstep?

And Stabler goes, oh, did he give you a bag?

Year?

Do you like the stench on your hands? And I would honestly watch a show that's just these two fighting. It's kind of hot. The only thing that reeks around here, he said, is how you handle this case? And Tucker says, this last victim is on you. So now this is like very cinematic what happens in the rest of this act because it's Stabler talking to Tucker Ben talking to Tucker, but in between there's like grainy footage of how they

A silver platter for you? Like he is being annoying.

Tucker is like, yeah, all you need is an accusation, Like, clearly doesn't work in us for you. Stabler's like, dude, it would be his word versus the doctor's word. Plus this kid, Justin had falsely accused his math teacher last year and then changed his story to say it was.

His pediatrician, who did it.

We go to a grainy flashback of Justin disclosing to Benson and Sabler.

They brought the teacher in. They bought the teacher a lot of takeout.

There is a ton of takeout on the table when they're talking to the teacher.

Just like extra annoying because it's like when they play fast and loose, they're in trouble, and then now when they're trying to get all the evidence, they're in trouble. Yeah, so it's just like, oh, John Tucker must die. How about that?

Yeah? Almost speaking about Tucker his.

Middle real name and his character's last name. That is what I did.

Speaking of another Tucker though, this man on the teacher that they bring in does have a Tucker Carlson haircut, and he swears he's never touched anyone. And now Tucker is in one on one with Olivia, his future girlfriend, who says that they interrogated the teacher for eighteen hours and he never gave in. Like when they finally told him it was Justin, he proved that Justin's accusation was bullshit.

I was scared. I would have gotten expelled, My parents would have killed me.

And Olivia's like, do you know what you've done to this teacher? Like I like get scared that there's so much on television about falsely accusing a teacher, like you do truly like ruin a teacher's life, like just by being like, oh, they tried to give me a bad grade, even though a ton of teachers are fucking students, so never mind.

Well, yeah, just in the SVU universe, like Billy Porter's episode, he didn't do it, and then the one with Betty Gilpin, like he lied and said that Buster from Arrested Development didn't and didn't and it wasn't him. You know, like the kids in the SVU universe are lying. Yeah, the universe. Yeah,

But the Betty Gilpin episode, she's having Yeah, like the teachers are having sex with the kids, for sure.

But it was Betty Gilpin. But the kid Luca lied and said it was you know Buster.

Yeah. But yeah, it is just like scary that it's like you just don't want to if you don't want to get a bad grade and you say something like that about a teacher, it could truly just like because you can't come back from it is the thing, you know, you just can't come back from accusations.

Because we have to take them very seriously.

Yeah.

Yeah, but also here the kids like there is a you know, because in the other one it's like there is abuse, but they don't want because there's another one.

Is it the Jeanette mccurty one, Yes, the Jeanet mccurty one.

She accuses a teacher, but it's not the teacher, it's it's the boy on the soccer team, yeah, or lacrosse team.

There's just a lot, there's a lot of these. Yeah, there's a lot of these.

Cut to Tucker talking to Craigan, who explains that the teacher quit the business. He couldn't even handle the whispers and the looks. He lost his career because this kid made up a story. So that's what I'm talking about. When he accused Kepler of the same crime, Tucker's like, you just let it go.

And then this other kid got molested.

And this is annoying because Tucker is acting like he doesn't know how it works to actually convict someone of an SVU crime, like Craigan spells it out, any decent defense attorney would absolutely kill Justin's testimony because of prior lying. So he told Benson and Stabler to find another victim, and like, one boy is never enough for a guy like Kepler, as I said, And so it took them three weeks to find Bradley Hicks. And then we get into a flashback where Stabler is talking to Bradley Hicks

We'll get your ethrial milking on our wrist. Sick. Oh my god, to look out forever and over.

And then Stabler tells Tucker that another victim came forward when he saw the doctor in cuffs on TV and they found that kid's DNA on a glove in Kepler's garbage, which they must have had to test a fuckload of gloves. So Tucker seems to be getting the big picture. In the next scene, Craigan goes Tucker even apologize and maybe this is where he starts to make a turn for the better, like you know, and Kragan's like, anything more

We switching places in this episode?

Okay, Friday, I think it would be fun to do a Freaky Friday with us two as the main characters.

It would be funny. Yeah, sorry it is.

We are very opposite but similar, But it would be wild. If I just had to be a mother of two and you came and had to clean my apartment, you would be like at.

The fountain throwing the coins in, like get me or whatever it is that switches him back. You'd like, for chata, get me out of here. Okay.

So meanwhile, Munch and Finn are like, well, since you guys been fucking around with iab I pulled up Kepler's lawsuit against Denslow Hospital, which states that Kepler claims he knew the hospital knew that he was molesting boys a year before the NYPD did, and they didn't stop it. And Stabler's like, well, that sounds like it's bullshit. So Benson is Stabler go talk to the hospital's attorney and he's like, his name's cold Well, and he's like, I can't say anything. I can't talk to you, I can't

We can investigate that crime. It's different.

So they go to Kepler's home, which is a brownstone in the high sixties the Upper East, and when they get there, rut Row there is blood on the threshold.

The door is open.

They enter the residence and they find Kepler lying on his living room floor, splatter marks everywhere, a golf club next to his body, dead as hell. Live calls it in.

And then Munch says, I heard doctor Kepler came down with a case of justice prova.

I never caught that a crane collapse. So Melinda's up to her elbows and bodies, like, I never caught that in this episode that there was a crane collapse, so I just like that.

I just assumed that there would be a lot of casualties. And she's busy, but uh, because she's not exactly going to places where there's a lot of living people, you know. So she's two hours out.

They say, so, then we get Munch's cute little line, and then Finn goes, more like someone saved the state a couple million bucks in a prison cell, and then Craigan says, we got to wait on Gray Lick, but hold on one goddamn second. Finn goes, that's not Gray Lick, who comes striding towards them alongside Daddy Craigan, looking gorgeous as ever. But Alexandra Cabbot herself back from witness protection in Wisconsin where she was forced to be called Emily

I can't imagine it.

But but this is gray Look's last episode.

She's never seen from again.

After this press conference on the steps about doctor Kepler.

She's out. Hooray, she's gone.

Benson and Stabler are kind of grilling Alex, like, Babe, when did you get to town? I mean, like, we didn't know anything about this, And Cabin is just kind of like scanning the room and getting warmed back up to the whole, like being in the room with a dead body thing. Like she's been off of it for a little while. And she says, I got all your messages. I would go to call you and then I would remember.

Like not a Christmas card, not a not a not a text. That's annoying. She could still be scared or nervous. There was a lot, there was car explosions. The fucking like gangs were after her, like to make it about them, of like why didn't you text? And it's like I don't know PTSD bitch, Yeah yeah, tick off. Yeah.

I think they were just like, wait, or is this after the Oh? Yeah, because why does she go to the congo later later?

Yeah? This is the season ten. She she's in.

She's back in and out right now temporary and stuff like, but uh, she does a bunch more than the congo. So anyway, they're having this awkward reunion.

Oh.

Hallarin interrupts them and tells them that the golf club is what killed the guy. Even though nine shots were fired, the purpose sucked so bad at aiming. Only one billet hit him and it hit him in the knee. So on the skin it's called the scan station. I was calling it a scantron on the where you take your sat on the scan station, which is like this thing that scans the whole room and shows you all the trajectories of all the bullets. It makes a diagram for

My thing is like, what is it? What's in it for the hospital? Just fire him?

I know what, he's that good of a pediatrician. I just don't get I don't get it. I mean, this happens constantly the Catholic Church. Everyone Catholic Church do it. It's because you take responsibility. If you fire him, then you're open to lawsuits and litigation. I think, I think, I don't know, that's why I'm just like spitballing.

But yeah, it's fucked up.

I mean, this is literally a Catholic church thing where they're just like, oh, let's just hide it instead of like trying to actually get rid of the problem. So then the mom tells them about Lillian Seifeld, whose name is almost Seinfeld minus one letter, Kepler's head nurse for years. She told the parents not to sign, but then she disappeared. So Munch tracks her down at en if it isn't Anne fucking Dowd okay, And I wondered if she got the script and was like, my husband would make an

Damn they've been married since nineteen eighty four, yeah, yeah.

Forty years almost, and they they have three kids.

It's cute.

So Munch goes to talk to her and she's like, and Munch goes, why haven't we heard about you? And she's like, I guess they deleted the records. I don't know if they see me talking to you, and it's like, who sees me? So now we cut to Lillian in a wooden blind's room and I call it an interview room. It's a wooden blind's room, and she's spilling it to Stabler that she said that the guys told her that

You really feel for her. You're like, oh my god, rock in a hard place.

But also, if you listen to Doctor Death season two, there was this whole fucking thing.

About a nurse who reported.

This doctor a million times and no one did anything about it. Like, I don't think that hospitals take what nurses say about doctors seriously all the time. And my mother in law's a nurse and she's told me, like, you know, you can get some doctors that just really look down on nurses and don't see them as like people that are partners in healthcare with them. And so sometimes nurses are reporting doctors just like out of spite because they're dicks, but all a lot of times they're.

Doing bad things. And the Doctor.

Death podcasts really show you how doctors are so like immune from checks and balances and like like getting in trouble. Like I don't even know how to verbalize this, but like, well, they all.

Have God complexes and it seems like the hospital reiterates it to them like confirms.

Yeah.

Like in the first season of Doctor Death, this guy was fucking killing people and in the second season he was telling people they had cancer when they didn't to get more money.

Like it.

It's fucked and like people are telling on them and there are not investigations or the investigations are internal, the way that colleges hide investigations and make it all internal and don't involve law enforcement.

Anyways, A lot of people have been talking to me about Retrieval.

Were you one of those people? Have you heard of it a movie?

Yes, No, it's not, it's a podcast series, but multiple people have brought it up to me. It was an IVF clinic and after a retrieve or egg egg freezing whatever, after retrievals IVF, I don't know which one. Like, all these women were complaining about pain and they were like shut up women. But what was happening was one of the nurses was addicted to fetanol was taking all their

And that's what Doctor Death in season one did as well. He was, oh, I'm sorry, That's what dear John did in Dirty John.

Dirty John.

He was an antithesiologist with a drug problem, and he would just take the drugs and not give them to the patients, and people would just be screaming about their pain. So fucked up, like so fucked up. So okay, So poor Lilian.

They listen.

Poor Lily, and we could see is between a rock and a hard place with this whole thing, and she didn't know what to do. Cabint and Craig and we pull out to see Cabinet Crag are watching through the fishbowl and Cabot's like that hospital is basically the Catholic church. They don't care about protecting the boys. They're just plugging

Are you the police? Like?

He just seems younger than he is. Then he presents and the guy playing Jeff is John Gallagher Junior, who you might recognize from the newsroom.

He's also a Broadway baby.

He was an American idiot and won a Tony for Spring Awakening, very very talented. And Benson and Stabler tell them they have a search warrant for the place, and he goes, want me to help you, so clearly something's up. He shows them the gun box, but it's empty, and he's like, uh oh ah, and then he tells them that the gun is gold ding ding ding, the gold plating we just heard about.

That's where I might have come from.

Then the parents come home and the dad is played by Frederick Lane or Lenney.

I don't know how you say this name.

Fair.

Yeah, he has like one hundred and fifty credits, including Dexter New Blood and Eyes of Tammy Fay, which are two things I've watched recently. But he has over one hundred fifty credits, so he's been in a ton of stuff and he's like, where's my gun and they immediately start to arrest him.

He has no clue who he may have murdered.

They're like, he's like, you're arested for murder and he's like, of who, And Jeff the Sun is saying, please don't take my dad to jail. Please don't take my dad to jail, over and over and that's the end of Act two. So Act three Clive Linwood's lawyer is Laurna, scary who we talked about recently, and she is scary.

Capades or Special Victims Unit. But I'm glad they settled on what they settled on.

Laurna is baiting Cabot and is like, you've lost your touch and it's like, how dare you, Alex Habit will wipe the floor with you. Not only is this guy's handgun missing, but his DNA was found at the scene and they have the DNA because of a menacing charge. So then he tells them the whole story about the menacing charge and he's not relatable at all, but he thinks he is. He's like, I'm headed back from the Hamptons, right, I get pulled over and get asked to take us

But she touches it with her full hands, like I was watching her. She truly grabs it with two hands. All her prints are on it, like usually they're a little more careful.

I need from the bottom.

I saw that too, But also her prints are in the system and can be easily like knocked out.

I guess I don't know.

Excluded is what I meant to say. So, but I did clock that as well. I was like, live hold it from the bottom. What's going on? This guy is in a great mood. He got to ride in a cop car. He's hanging out, he's loving it. He's like, am I in trouble? Are you guys going to take my prints? And when they ask about the gun, he said I'm not supposed to touch it. It's not a toy, but that his dad had taken him to the range

And he's like, it's okay. I like talking to you.

You're pretty like obviously she bewitches everyone and he asks She asks him, do you know doctor Kepler? He shakes his head no, but he won't make eye contact. He's clearly lying, and he finally admits that he went to Kepler when he was younger, but then he wanted to go to a different doctor. And they're like why, and he's like, because we learned in school that no one is supposed to touch you down there. Kepler told him it

So I don't know.

It's like, I don't know why they have to like connect it this way. It seems pretty obvious if you've done the research. And also why did these parents not bring him forward as a victim to also like add to this guy's sentence, like it would be more count the water if.

He never told the parents, because the doctor said, oh, I'm just a doctor, Like I wonder if he didn't know anything was even wrong.

I see what you're saying.

But they make it seem very soon like the mom knew about the abuse because like she hires Granger. You know, I don't know, but I don't know. Jeff saw the verdict on TV. It made him mad because Kepler lied to him. He took his dad's gun to Kepler's house and asked him why he lied. Kepler tried to hit him with a golf club, but he hit the gun and a bullet the bullet the gun went off, and

Over and over again.

Then he said the gun got all red and slippery, so he moved the golf to the golf club and Kepler stopped calling him names then, so he basically just confesses to the whole crime, and he says, Dad says, if a bully hurts me, I got to fight back and kill the bastard. Maybe not the best thing to tell. Cragan is in the window talking, you know, is through the looking glass. Craigan is on the other side with Cabot of the window, and he's like, are you at

In wwe like.

Then he stablers him against the ropes and Jeff keeps saying doctors are bad, over and over and over again. Huang is on the ground looking kind of just like stunned and out of it. But at the top of act four, Huang is like, I didn't black out. I'm good to go. I'm fine. Release me, like, let's the paramedics go. He thinks there's something really wrong with Jeff. He's like he is like a child. He can't process a singles a simple sentence. Cabits, he has a job,

Bit more help.

And anyway, she insists that he's confident, but Huang argues, he can't handle his emotions or his temper. He's an eight year old in a man's body, and I bet his IQ is borderline, and she goes, Cabot says, can you definitively say that I cannot try him because.

He's our word.

Here we go again with the arm and then Huang goes, no, I cannot definitively say that. So cut to court, Jeff is on the stand. Granger is questioning him. He says that the detectives were not nice to him, that they lied, that they would punish him, and that the man touched him, and he goes, where did the man touch you? And he goes on the shoulder and that's why he told them that he killed doctor Kepler. Cabot's turn and she goes, do you know a boy named Chad Smith? And Jeff's like,

And no one reacts. Huang is the oh I wrote.

Huang is the only one who clocks it somehow, like the holy One.

That's like what, like everyone watches and they're just like business as usual.

He's chomping on a pencil. It is so funny.

Yeah, it's crazy, so in judge's chambers with Judge Barry Mordock. It's Granger and Alex, and Granger wants Alex disciplined for badgering Jeff and says his clients are furious, and she goes, Jeff is your client, not the parents, and Granger should be disqualified as counsel, and he argues he's giving Jeff a good defense, and Mordoc pipes in, like, your client has as much business being on that stand as.

I do riding in a rodeo.

Only a horse's ass would ignore his diminished mental capacity.

And I love that.

And Granger goes, Judge, you're out of line, and it's like to even say that to a judge, and he goes, you're a disgrace to the defense bar Granger, And if you don't get your shit together, I'll grant her motion and report your ass.

Get out.

So Granger leaves and he's like, you stay, Alex, and then she and Mordoc have this conversation about the morals of all of this, since the guy clearly has some kind of developmental delay, and Alex argues that this isn't his constitutional law class, this is the real world, and he's like, I know you've seen.

A lot more of the real world than anyone, and.

I'm glad you're back, but you can't lose sight of why you became a lawyer. And the Cabot I remember, wouldn't railroad this poor young man, and Cabot looks shook. He has touched her and reached her in a place that was maybe she thought she left Inisconsin. At Houang's office, Caboit apologizes to Wang. Basically, She's like, you were right, I was out for blood. Huang's like, listen, I was just about to call you. I think I've got it. And the sad thing is this all could have been prevented.

It's very funny.

So then when asked if Jeff hit all his developmental milestones as a baby, she said yes, he was totally fine.

Until he was five.

Then he had a seizure, his brain swelled and we thought he was going to die. When he finally recovered, he was never the same. Kepler said, it was a miracle that he survived. And it's like, fuck, this pediatrician knew that jeff had an intellectual disability and still molested him. Like that's like, now we're getting that picture, you know. That's like fucking horrible. And Kepler told them it was epilepsy, and Huang says, well, Kepler missed Jeffrey's Pika beer beer

Episodes lives years.

I've been talking about pika but calling it pica for over a decade. Yeah, so this has been the episode that has lived within my heart and spirit and mind waiting for someone to nibble on a metal like I've just been wanting to diagnose in the real world.

I love this episode.

This shows just like how lucky we were to have you know, bead Wong be the voice of Neil Behar, a medical professional, and give us knowledge that can last a lifetime. So Cara continue, Yes, I honestly thought in my mind too that pika was a acronym, but it's not.

It is just pika pica, And it's just like pika is a rare neurological disease where people compulsively swallow non food items. So like Jeffrey chewing on the pencil in court, he just puts He's just put tons of shit in his mouth his whole life, and his mom like confirms that.

Well.

And if this was just a few years later, he could have been on a hit show on TLC.

I eat weird things. Yeah, my strange addiction. You know, it's I wonder if people have pika.

They might people the moment you just read the definition, they're eating couch cushions.

They're fucking bika. Yeah, oh my gosh. So I'm not a doctor, correct me if I'm wrong. So they're like, they asked the mom did you keep anything?

And of course somehow she kept all the toy cars that her son licked the paint off of when he was five, And apparently the dad brought him back a bunch of cars from a business trip and he just stripped them clear of all of their paint in two days because he said it tasted like sour candy. So Clive comes in and him and his wife start arguing.

Baby?

Oh, the one that she allegedly copied from Madonna. Anyway, Cut Tohuang with the PowerPoint baby. He ordered an MRI, which was done in lightning record time because yesterday was trial and right now he has an MRI in front of him, so they obviously threw that kid.

In an MRI machine very quickly. He already has the results.

The kid at the pencil yesterday and there are red spots on his brain that scan that indicate missing gray matter. Chronic lead poisoning stopped his brain from developing. Most kids

Which I don't want to act surely imply is it out a file?

But also we forget, you know, the pedophilia is time consuming.

It does make you a worse doctor.

Yeah, hiding what you're doing, like falsifying records, I'm sure doing shit like that. So in jail, they bring Jeff out to see his parents. He seems cheerful, but he tells them he does not like it there. The people are not nice. Clive is crying and he's like, why are you crying? Dad, And he's like, gives him a hug, and he says, I didn't help you enough, and I'm sorry, but it's like the dad didn't really do anything. It's like if your pediatrician didn't chuck for lead, you gave

Yeah, yeah.

You can't get help for someone if you're in denial of what's going on with them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so Jeff said I did a bad thing. And Granger goes, so, I guess we're not going back to trial and Cabot goes, oh, yes we are.

Boom boom boom boom boom boom.

So on the stand now is an old ass white man who is the president and CEO of Rowan Toys Incorporated. And the guy says he's excited because he's there as an expert witness about toys. And he's like, look at me, I'm the head of toys. And the guy says that the toys that Jeff has, they show him the old licked off toys and he says, they haven't been made

Uh oh bitch.

The crime lab tested them and found that the paint on them is fifty percent lead. Toy man looks shocked, then he looks pissed, and he realizes that he thought he was being brought in his expert and witness, but really they want to bust him for endangering children in a court of law on the record. She slaps down emails between Rowan and the Chinese manufacturer, which I don't know how she got those, which proved that he knowingly poisoned children for decades.

This is fucked.

He tries to storm out, but Benson and Sabler cuff his ass and arrest him for reckless endangerment. He goes, I'll have your ass for this to cab It, and she goes, I already have yours, and it's on the record.

She's so good.

At verdict time, Jeff says he's sorry and he didn't mean to hurt anyone. Mordoc finds him. They obviously asked for a bench trial. There's no jury. Mordoc files him, finds him not guilty by reason of mental defect, and per the plea agreement, he'll be hospitalized until he's no longer a threat to himself for others. He says goodbye to his parents. Cabot says the judge's going to review his progress in a month. I don't really think we need to get him out in a month. If he's

But he never good.

He does not even have to go back and live with his parents when he gets out. Rowan Toys has agreed to support Jeff financially for the rest of his life. So in the end, Alex did the right thing. She tells Olivia and Stabler that Rowan offered the deal to pay for Jeff for the rest of his life so that Cabbot wouldn't charge him, but then he signed it and Cabot was like psych and told him to shove it.

Yes, a very Pika episode. Listen to our ads and we'll see you soon with some real life cases. Okay, so we're gonna talk about a few things here. A couple cases, one very clear, the other not that clear, but we're going to talk about it. And then the third is just a little snippet about lead in toys and stuff like that, because it did happen close to a big case. But I hope you're not disappointed. I did less lead research than crime research. But all right,

That is very Epstein of him. JK. Epstein was murdered, Okay.

Several plaintiffs said that Lavine's abuse had clouded their lives and they hoped for resolution in the lawsuit, but he never gave them that chance. The lawsuit charges that doctor Levine performed unnecessary genital exams on forty boys while at the Children's Hospital of Boston from nineteen sixty six to nineteen eighty five. Per the New York Times, The Boston Globe reported that several men said that they were young boys that doctor Levine groped, fondled, or performed oral sex

But I don't even remember, do you remember, I remember a hearing check and an eye on a scoliosis check. I don't remember that one.

We had a scoliosis check, and that one you got to wear like a gown and kind of bend over.

Yeah, so maybe the doctor went to do those scoliosis checks and then found you know, these guys know how to find their fucking prey.

Yeah.

Dean said he cried and was in shock after it happened, but he didn't tell anybody, and then you know, there's just more cases. So like one man, Donald Roy, said that he was abused by the doctor at age ten when he was having surgery. He also invited him over to his house and he told his mom like, I don't want to go, and I don't want to go because he molested me. But the mom didn't know what to do and so she sent him over anyway. So the mom knew the doctor molested him, but sent the

Like what is my mom never had patience over Like, that's not a thing that I've she never.

Yeah, that's not a thing. I don't think.

I mean, maybe if it's like, at the same time, this pediatrician is like a little league coach and has a kid or something like that. You know, that could be possible, But I don't think in the capacity of like, hey, head over to your pediatricians house for a visit.

That's weird.

It is I'm trying to understand what this is like is it's small town vibes, but this is like Boston area.

So yeah, I'm confused. Dude.

The Boston Globe stays working on pedophile cases like they are bi that is their beat.

I know I refuse to subscribe to one more, but maybe I have to. Maybe I have to subscribe to Boston Globe and maybe cancel my New Yorker.

Cancel New York Times, and I'll give you my login and then you can use my and I'll use your Boston I.

Can't because the Times with my games I really need. Oh yeah, you're right, you're right, You're right.

And we see this on the podcast always like this guy had glowing reputations. A glow owing reputation as covers they are good people in the community to cover their bad behavior. Do not trust a good man ever or a bad one or any of them, they will molest your children. So he was a leading advocate for children with learning disabilities. He had books and a PBS documentary and a nationwide schedule of lectures.

He appeared on the Oprah Winfrey Show.

He had a nonprofit group called All Kinds of Minds, and that was with Charles Schwab, which I think I see commercials with the Schwab guy. It's like finance, right, Yeah, it's like a bank.

Basically they do finance. Yeah, might ontworks for them.

So he's clearly connected. And this group that he did, All Kinds of Minds, trained thousands of teachers. So in two thousand and four, the New York City Department of Education gave All Kinds of Minds a twelve point five million dollar contract to train twenty thousand teachers.

In two thousand and.

Five, he was named by Scholastic Press the most and the most ad my person in education. And his big thing that he always talked about was not dismissing a kid, but exploring what stopped a kid from learning. And his basic tenant was that no child should ever be humiliated. That's rich in his lectures, he commonly said avoiding humiliation at all costs.

This guy knows no low. He's guys.

But these guys like the more fame they get or like that kind of thing, it's like that's they're like, I'm never gonna get caught, Like I'm just too good. Like look, I'm on Oprah, I'm doing this, I'm the teacher, I'm the educator of the year. Like they just don't think they're ever gonna get caught.

But not only that, like for your message to be, let's not humiliate children and then molest them.

It's fucking horrible.

Always with the metal Jimmy Sevial, the other doctor recovered, you know, with the surgery, the doctor, the kids that they're most vulnerable the most it ugh.

Ugh. After all this.

Went down in Massachusetts, he went to North Carolina, and guess what happened? Sexual abuse complaints arose in North Carolina. So finally, in March two thousand and nine, the North Carolina Medical Board was investigating charges, and he agreed to never practice medicine again, and he gave up his license. He was never convicted on any abuse charges and never faced criminal.

Charges, and then in twenty eleven he just ended it.

Wait on once, you know, the kids were going to get some sort of money or restitution in any way.

Fuck Psycher, it's so it's so evil. It's evil man.

So this case is the Gary Hurt case, and maybe you're gonna help connect it to this episode.

We'll see.

But you know, an interesting case we all love. I don't know if we love learning about the horrors of the world, but we do. That's why you're listening. You're obsessed with us, you're obsessed with Dick Wolf universe, or you're a sicko.

So this is for the sikahs.

Gary was a high school scholar, a star athlete, an Eagle Scout, and a murderer.

Don't I feel like I should be on dateline? That was a good star. That was fucking good dud.

Gary a high school scholar, star athlete, an Eagle Scout and a murderer.

I love that guy. What's his fucking name again? He said my name Keith Keith.

When I was on dateline, he goes Carol Klink he said my name, Just like that.

You got to get the clip up and get it on the gram. The fact that you keep trying it out being Keith Morrison, Keith Morrison.

No, I okay.

So I it used to be online and then they got rid of it. So I always could just send anybody the link, and now they got rid of it. So I have it on a VHS. I gotta get it, take it to Costco and get it like turned into a digital file or whatever.

Okay.

So anyways, this Gary guy not a good name. Jka my childhood friend Gary, thinking about you.

Okay.

So this Wisconsin high school senior was charged and arrested for the murder of thirty seven year old Glenn Kopitski. He sought him out and stalked the substitute teacher and killed him. So Kopitski was murdered July thirty first, two thousand and three. The sheriff's captain Steve verwel, no way that's right. But Captain Steve, he said, I would attribute

But if one of the eighteen hundred people that live in this town listens to our podcast, I would love them to message us how to really say it. That's smaller than my high school. Yeah wow, I really don't get it.

But Wayawiga and it's like, I don't know, you guys all stole it from indigenous people. Anyways, we should just like be speaking about like speaking like this whatever. It's a tiny ass town in Wisconsin, eighteen hundred population.

Kara looked at my notes and.

The community is about ninety miles north of Madison, Wisconsin, which we will be there soon.

Come see us. This is a plug we are.

Plugging we are being the problem now of true crime girls. So the murder took place in Madison, and you can come check us out live in Madison at the place of the murder. So it's home, of course to a cheese production company amongst other businesses. And a lot of the news just came hammering. This is like so classic Americana. Like the news just kept hammering about how great Gary was the killer, which is annoying because he's a killer. But you know, these celebrated men, they just.

They love it.

They love a high school star that commits a crime. They love a brock turner. He didn't rape anyone. He's a good swimmer, Like that's fucking what they love.

But my big thing is like can you believe it? And it's like, yeah, it's these guys every time, Like I would be more shocked if it was a delinquent, honestly. So this guy, you know, they kept being like honor student vibes, track, wrestling, football, because you know what we know about football players a a plus guys. Yeah, he was also dating a fourteen year old, which I hate because he was eighteen, So I was just like, how

But seeing the numbers.

At freshmen are right out of eighth grade, Like seeing.

The number is tough, but like it.

But if someone was like, my son's dating a freshman, No, it's gross, it is gross, but yeah, NBC News use it as a positive. They were like, he has a steady fourteen year old girlfriend, and it's like, well, how steady and for how long she is fourteen?

Like was she thirteen when they started dating? What is happening?

I will say when I was a freshman, I feel like more people were dating juniors and it was more rare for her to be senior freshmen. That is kind of a really yucky age difference for me.

It is, but it was only the hottest and the coolest of them, So it is just like, I mean, that's the twisted darkness too, where it's like it's celebrated as a slite, sexy thing.

Yeah, to like.

Go to prom as a freshman or whatever. Yeah, yeah, but.

I just don't get how that was one of their positive They're like football, wrestling, Honor Roll and he was dating a fourteen year old steadily, Like it's just like NBC what happened that day?

They also were like he's six four two seventy. Is this the wwe? Like, I just hate everything. So the mayor said classic. The mayor was classic. The kid had everything going for him. But what's so funny to me is the mayor's name is Mayor Quimby, which is the mayor of the Simpsons. Oh my god, really okay funny.

So Mayor Quimby is the mayor of this town, and Mayor Quimby is based on, like I would say, the Kennedy family, and like very just corrupt.

He's a corrupt mayor. So wild to have a Mayor.

Quimby, and he knew the Hurt family forever.

It's a tiny town and so.

He works with him and he's the one that gave this guy all his boy Scout merit badges, so the whole town couldn't believe it.

And then the NBC news article.

I always love when they just talked to a random guy from the town. So his name's Paul Well, Paul Mayhew owns the Dairy Queen where Hurt also found the time to work on the weekends for two and a half years. And he said that he's going to keep hert's job open for him on trial for murder, but the dairy Queen job he's gonna hold open for him, Like, get me out of these tiny they say, we're in a bubble.

Honey, You're in a dairy queen bubble.

He's quoted in two thousand and four in this NBC news piece that they're gonna stand by him on what they know about him.

Wait, that reminds me of Guffman when she goes I could always go back to the DQ.

They said, they take me back. That's what Gary, That's what Gary was thinking. That was an amazing impression. Thank you, thank you so much. More great qualities about this guy.

Also nothing about the dead man, Like no one in any of the articles.

No one cares about this man.

No one cares about this dead man who is gruesomely murdered. But the Dairy Queen guy was just like ah Gary. He was polite, quiet, got along with everyone. He never bragg and didn't think too much of himself. Oh, but he is a murderer.

Like, I don't know why.

It's like when people are like, I mean, Hitler wasn't all bad, and it's like, but why do we need to find the.

Good parts of me? Like I don't murder genocidal maniac. That knocks out everything else.

Yeah, it just knocks out that you were good to your dog or whatever.

Like, yeah, it's the snood game. Once it hits, they all come crumbling. Yeah, the other ideas don't matter.

Oh my god, I fucking love snude. Can I still play that? It's so good?

Yeah, you can find it online, but they I got it on my phone. But it's like at you know, it's like everything in life, it's a scam.

My senior year in college, I used to sneak home from parties to just play nude. I was like, I'm not having fun and I would just go home and play nude.

Was I depressed? I don't know.

I know, looking back at like, it's so interesting when you're coping and bad habits have been the same for decades and you've never been able to escape them. Like I think go back about college, like I would totally leave parties to go home and watch TV by myself.

Oh way, I was like, I was like, I'm actually really getting it's nude.

I think I might beat it soon. So I'm going to go home and like not socialize on my final year of college.

Now back to a horrific murder. So for five months, investigators were stumped. They didn't even look at her as a suspect because obviously the whole town is obsessed with this sexy high school football athlete.

Like the whole town like we couldn't even thought about it.

But then finally a friend came over, came over, came forward, like I mentioned someone that dated him, so basically Olivia Toma.

She came forward January first.

I guess she had a real come to Jesus New Year's hangover and had had to run to the cops, and so on January first, she was worried that he was gonna harm himself. So again, this whole town, I guess hated the substitute teacher, like everyone just loved this high school jock so much that like he even told this chick Olivia, and Olivia is like hmm okay.

And then was like, oh well, Gary's about to harm himself. I gotta get him help. It's like, but you knew that he murdered. But according to the police report.

Toma and him exchanged their biggest secrets to each other in a county fair and she didn't take him seriously or maybe her secret.

Was really bad too.

So anyways, so on January twenty eighth, the police recorded a call between Toma and Hurt, and he described crime details that were not public, so they knew they had him, and finally they had it on tape, him saying that he did it just because he wanted to see if he could get away with it.

This is the problem with dating fourteen year olds. They are going to roll on you. You know, they're not die.

They're not ride or die. They'd just been at eighth grade.

They're going to record you when you're talkings.

They don't want to get grounded.

Other friends also said that he killed animals and would brag about it often, so I but.

They still loved him. Okay.

He actually said in an interview that he doesn't have guilt for killing animals because he figures that he's doing them a favor.

End quote.

He also told another friend, Eric Wenzlau about it, and the two young men visited the house in July before the murder, and he said that they thought like he thought, they were just looking for deer at this guy's house, I guess. But then later he confessed to Eric that he drove his dad's car and found Kopitsky naked and killed him.

So they took his.

Ass in on January twenty ninth, and they did it at school. So like a true Sview episode, they arrested this guy.

At school purp walk during third period. Okay, so that never happens in real life. So I'm so excited.

So his parents obviously couldn't believe it when the authorities came to search the house and then police also found Kopitski's keys in his room and two shotguns in the basement. Now Here I said Kopitski's name because I have respect for the death.

This article just said found the dead man's keys. Wow, like legit. It was.

I was in a twilight zone reading about the crime. So with all the evidence against him, he of course pled not guilty, so he's he was not involved in the murder.

He just had the dead man's keys, Okay, sir So.

October two thousand and four, he did finally plead guilty to first degree intentional homicide, but then he claimed insanity and so they went to jury like a jury trial. On March seventeenth, two thousand and five, he was sentenced. The jury gave him mandatory life, but then the judge changed it and said he would be eligible for parole after thirty two years including time served, so he will be in prison till at least fifty years old. But

So he only gave one interview during.

This time, and it was to ABC News to Cynthia McFadden, and in this interview he said, there's no reason I should be held accountable for this.

That's just the way I feel. I can't change that.

He's straight up gay panicked, like he was trying to gay panic. So he eventually confessed and said he was out of his mind at the time, and he was driven into a murderous rage after having a homosexual encounter with the older man. I'm glad he got a long sentence. I really hate this person, so he claimed in the interview with McFadden. But he did not testify in court, so it's just the interview. So he didn't testify where

It's just confusing that this cool, beloved high schooler was under a bridge alone drinking forties. Like I don't but.

It sounds like he's wrestling trying to self medicaid because he has some homosexual feelings.

Exactly, you're right.

So he said when he drank, he sometimes had homosexual urges, and that Kopitski pulled up his car and flirted with him and they agreed to go back to the older man's house. He said it was consensual. He said, he went he went in, they fucked, and then he fell asleep in his car, and when he woke up sober, he was in a rage having sex with another man. And he was just grossed out, beyond belief and disappointed at the proof of my imperfection to myself that I

It's all just about Gary. It's all about Gary. So crazy, But.

I mean, Gary would not have made up the homosexual thing if it's so just, if it's so shameful to him, right.

Like I feel like it did happen.

I just don't believe that Kapitski drove by as this guy was hammered and then they all drove back like separately.

I just especially because he had chased his house with his friend, right.

Yeah, yeah, and maybe it was the next day that they chased it.

But it's like no, because that would make sense.

You're right, ye, like yeah, and the guy's a substitute teacher, like did he know the student.

It is a small town.

But his parents believe him, and they said it was difficult for their son to admit to having homosexual sex. But also he is a murderer, but okay, and the father, Mike Mike Herr to ABC News said, I think Gary was willing to accept life in jail to keep that secret to himself. In some ways, I'd probably put in that situation. I think I would have probably been very tough to come forward.

I know that dad. The dad is talking not very articulately, but he's saying like, wow, this would be so hard to come forward.

It's like you came forward about a murderer, like you have murdered a person, But the gay thing is so much harder and worse and more of a secret.

It's so fun. Can you believe that that is real? Like that is real life? There are people, but.

Didn't that that recently happened with like a school shooter, the one not a school shooter, a gay club on the Pacific, Like I can't believe. I can't keep all our country's mass shootings together. But after a recent mass shooting, a dad said that he it's better that he's the killer than if he was at the gay club at the gay bar. There are people that could like legit people At the Christian college I went to, I remember having gay conversations and I remember a kid raising his

I want to know where she is. I wish college had a year book.

But anyways, it is shocking that there are people that would rather their kids be murderers than gay.

Anyways, I keep rambling.

The prosecution was disgusted with this defense and they thought it was all live lies and they're like, shut the fuck up, like we hate you and you're going to jail, and he did. I would like to end talking about the victim of all of this, since for some reason none of the media thought to But Kipitski did live alone and he wanted to get into acting in comedy, said his mother, Shirley Kopitski, and that he was a loner and a little bit different, eccentric, and that sadly made him a target.

And so it's literally it's a fucking hate crime. I mean, it's a true it's a full hate crime. I think the sky was gay, and he clocked it, and he knew that he had those feelings, so he stalked him, went over there, maybe they had some kind of thing together, and then he killed him. Yeah, I'm really confused why the judge took away the life sentence and gave him opportunity for parole in thirty two.

Damn, I wonder, I mean, I wonder what the judge has.

Okay, So now I'm going to quickly go over this is yeah, quick, this is obviously a giant, a giant international exporting importing catastrophe.

That who am I an economics major? Okay?

So this is based on the concerns of high lead levels and toys during the two thousand and seven Chinese export recalls.

So Barbie Pink will never end. This is about Mattel Baby.

So Mattel recalled nineteen million toys sent from China. Let's think about nineteen million toys.

That's a lot. Fuck. Yeah.

So August fourteenth, two thousand and seven, the world's largest you know, toy company, announced the biggest recall in its history. This all started in July when one of Mattel's European retail partners noticed lead paint on some of its toys, so that an extensive investigation began.

At first, it was four hundred and thirty six thousand.

Chinese made die cast toy cars from the movie Cars.

It was Sarge. Sarge is the which one is Sarge? I think he's the Is he the like little tow truck or I don't know.

I really don't know. I've not seen cars. My kids aren't into that yet. Oh really, I'm so shocked. They we've tried it and they just don't get into it. After like fifteen minutes they want to turn it off.

I totally thought you were going to have a story Sarge is a military vehicle, which clearly makes sense, and we're idiots.

We're idiots.

So that was the first thing, and then there was eighteen point two million other toys that were recalled because they had small, powerful magnets that could harm kids if they were swallowed.

Damn.

So the magnet toys have been being produced since two thousand and two, and it included forty four different polypocket toys, eleven Doggy daycare toys, four Batman toys, one piece I don't know what that is one piece toy, and two Barbie toys and half of the toys in each recall were distributed in the United States. And these magnets are

Oh my god, I know, I know.

Mega Brands was not helpful in the investigation into their defective magnets. And then when the company submitted to the data, there was data that showed in the beginning of two thousand and four, the company in rose Art received fifteen hundred consumer reports of magnets coming loose from their casings that did nothing. And then finally December two thousand and five, a toddler died, and then they jumped to work Senator Dick Durbin and Representative Bobby L.

Rush, an Illinois Democrat. Crew.

So this Rush guy's the chairman on Trade and Consumer Protection and hearings, and so he held hearings on the toys on June eighteenth and said the company did everything in their power to derail the Commission's effort to take the product off the shelf. They were trying to put warning stickers on and it's like no, no, no, like some people don't speak English. You can't have a warning sticker. If it's like death, like on a toy, take it off the shelves, you fucking lunatics.

I hate it. Whatever, So they didn't cooperate it all and.

Kids are dying and I hate it so and the kids swallowed so many magnets. There was a kid in Italy who swallowed sixty magnets.

Jesus.

Then, in a separate toy situation, toys are us. They had a bunch of lead baby bibs. Oh my god, so vinyl bibs with famous characters. They were selling for about five dollars each. The kids were licking them, and then anything with like ripped and cracked bibs were the worst for exposure. Sesame Street or the Explorer toys they were filled with lead as well, And in this article they're like shares dropped fifty seven cents, which doesn't seem like a lot, and then the Mattel stock rose back

That's so many products.

They blamed the big recall on a subcontractor, hong Lea Da who was hired by Mattel con tractor in China, and it's called Early Light Industrial.

Hasbro heard the news and they increased.

The level of its safety checks following all the recalls. One brand's failure is another brand's warning, is what they said.

And I kind of like that. That's kind of clever. So then we have S.

Prakash Sethi and he's a professor at Baruch College and that is a city university of New York, and he acted as an independent monitor of working conditions in Mattel factories for the last ten years of when this article came out, in the case, and he says, if Mattel, with all of its emphasis on quality and testing, found such a widespread problem, what do you think is happening in the rest of the toy industry, in the apparel industry, and even in the low end electronics industry. And that's

So that's no lead lives matter. Lead is bad all the time.

Yeah, thank you Lisa for doing all of that.

Right, But do you do you understand why the second crime was connected to this episode?

Not really?

It was a teen killing an older person, but I don't. I'm glad you told me about it, but I don't. I wonder why that was ever put online as a possible connect. Yeah, but yeah, I mean also like the brutality of the killing maybe, like because it was this guy was shot and stabbed and blah blah blah. I don't know, and then this guy was bludgeoned and shot, so I don't know.

Maybe.

Thank you for doing research on three separate issues and crimes. And we have a great guest, so don't go anywhere, okay. As our usual reminder, this interview was recorded prior to the SAG strike. This is our last interview, I believe before. We are going to take a little break from having interviews until the SAG strike is resolved, and we hope that that happens soon because we have a lot of people waiting in the wings that are ready to do the pod, and we're excited to bring them to you.

That they have going on.

But our guest today, who we recorded before the strike was is another Broadway baby. We've were on a streak of Broadway darlings right now. He won a Tony for originating the role of Moritz Stiefel in Spring Awakening. He was also in the Broadway productions of American Idiot and Jerusalem, and he was in the movie ten Cloverfield Lane.

But you know him today as doctor Murderer jeff Linwood.

Guys, please enjoy our chat with the delightful John Gallagher Junior. Yeah, we heard that you're a buddies with another friend of the pod, Michael Chernis.

Yes, I just saw him at a birthday party last week. I had just listened to your episode with him. It was when they sent me the invitation for this. I hadn't heard the podcast yet, but I was like, well, that's a great idea. I mean, my my dad and my sister are are fanatics as well. And every every Christmas if there's ever any kind of marathon on well and I always get stuck watching like eight episodes in a row. So I was thinking about them when I

And it was. It was a great episode.

Oh for that he was incredible. So your father and sister know that you're in a legendary episode of US for you, one of the most memorable.

I would say, you know, they might they might not really quite have it on that much of a pedestal. I think they probably both watched it once upon its original air.

It liked with both of us.

Yeah, since it aired, I bring up Peka all the time about it from Bed Wong here and it is like, it's just such a staple because I didn't know of a thing and then I knew it because of svo.

It is one of those episodes that I you know, it's it's entertaining, it's interesting, it's unique, and then very informative in the end. Really it kind of ticks all the boxes.

Yeah, and like, I honestly feel like they should change the name of it because when you tell people you're like, oh, that episode led, they're like uh, and you're like the one where the kid has pika.

And you're like, oh, we got it. I got it not even saying it right.

No.

I only realized that when I rewatched Doctor John because bead Wong said it again and I was like, we've been saying pica for a long time.

I only realized. But okay, so how did this?

We like, you're a Broadway baby, we know all, Like, we know a lot about you. But what do you want to start with Lisa.

Biting the pencil? Of course we're going to the bush.

What is it is the most memorable moment?

It isn't.

What's funny is bead Wong like it's like, oh, something up. But the rest no one else reacts to you doing on a pencil like it's a piece of celery.

Like everyone's like, just this kid loves pencils. What can you do. We can't keep them in on number two is quick enough? Like what?

It is one of those moments where I remember thinking like, well, no one's really reacting to this rather an intense gesture.

Maybe they all know it's coming or something. Yeah.

I remember filming that day and when I got to set, one of my biggest questions, of course, was what's this pencil going to be made out of?

Is it going to be an actual pencil? And it was.

It was a very impressive recreation of a pencil made entirely from Marzapan candy.

So it was like really sweet, like sickly sweet.

Oh but they had the like the lettering, and they had like twelve of them. They had made a bunch of them because they knew we were going to probably be doing a handful of takes.

This is this, This is the info why we started this podcast. I can not believe that was a candy pencil. It looked so real and like the way that you were eating it. I was like, it looks like he's eating a real ass pencil.

Oh my gosh, it's like way before is it cake like you again?

You know? I was the curve there?

Come on in two thousand and nine when we made that episode, and I remember it was it was doubt.

They were weirdly.

Delicate, yeah, because of the almond flower or something. And I had to have it in my in my pocket and then I take it out and I'm kind of playing with it, and I just remember being acutely aware of of not to man handle it because they were like, they will break apart if you press it too hard, and you kind of have to sell it was pretty I had to kind of sell as if it had like there was some you know, there was a lot

Oh my gosh, wow, Holly.

Yeah, it's an amazing I mean it heads up to that. I mean that crew. You got to give it up to them. There. There's something else.

Yeah, magic happened weekly on the set there of su.

Another prop or more wardrobe that I love is like your chicken outfit is so good too. Yeah, I would have tried to steal that.

That's like, yeah, I said a portion of the episode in it, I don't change for a while.

After they hauled me off for questioning.

So you like did original recipe in O two, then you did Criminal Intent and O four, then you made the trinity. Yeah, you've completed the trinity by doing this episode.

So I mean, at this point you're like a Broadway star.

And like, did they just have you come in to do this part, or did like they know you from doing other Law and Orders or like what.

Was in preparation to to speak with the two of you? I really was racking my brain. Okay, what do I remember about the process of getting this part?

Did audition? I even went through my emails.

I like, I like searched like Law and Order SVU led audition offer. I was like going back to see if I could find the origin of how I found. I couldn't find anything.

I don't know.

Maybe the fact that you even did an email search already you're like above ninety nine percent of the people that come.

But I wanted to be informed, you know. I wanted to have good answers to your questions.

I didn't want to just sit here saying I don't remember over and over again.

Which probably still could happen.

It's fine, Yeah, I do remember that. It was like, you know, I think January February. I remember all these really weird little details about it. I remember that the Watchmen movie was coming out because I was reading the original Watchmen graphic novel like in between takes. I remember reading that on set and people being.

Like, Oh, hey, you excited for the movie?

Why, yes, I am, yeah, and yeah, I think I had. I had done the original in two thousand and two. I think I was about seventeen, and I did. I had a scene with with Jesse and Jerry, which was very exciting, and then I did Criminal Intent and had a bunch of scenes with Catherine and Vincent and that was very exciting and intimidating and scary. And then also John Savage of like the Deer Hunter, Fame and many

But for a while, it was really like.

If you saw a hair and makeup trailer on the corner of a street in New York City, in ninety nine percent chance it was a Law and Order. Maybe it was NYPD Blue coming over from LA to pick up some exteriors or something, or maybe.

It was Third Watch or what have you.

Now there's lots of different shows, but you just spend so much time as a working actor and auditioning actor in New York sitting in that waiting room, and so I'd been in for them so many times, and I remember it was kind of a lull. I had done a play right before the holidays, and it was that kind of like winter lull where I wasn't working and I was just kind of kicking around the apartment, and then I got this. I'm pretty sure I just got

Yeah, you're right.

I mean, maybe we all can't be the judge, but I think you nailed the performance and all.

That's what I was gonna say. Maybe it's not for me, but you did great. I think the people.

I think what was fucked was everyone around you and how they spoke about you.

I feel like your performance was great.

I think it was mostly like Captain Craig and being like, I don't know, he seems slow, like that is those are the things that.

It's so funny.

I was just on a podcast this morning and the host of the podcast was going, if Tom Hanks made Forrest Gump now, he would have been escorted out of Hollywood, Like there's just no way, like every line, there's no way that that movie could be made today, like at all, Like we wouldn't have had Gary Sinise as an amputee, like that never would have happened, like and I was like, it's interesting, like things just change. I think in the last few years as well, have changed so fast of like you know.

Really quickly, yeaheah.

But that's the thing with SVU.

It's like always ahead of its time or completely not and dated. It's like it's such a beautiful mix, like how we learned well Pika, But then Cabot says some fux up ship. Anyways, you and bed Wong in interrogation, you get mad at him, you hate doctors.

How is that scene?

Well, it's just it's it's he's a very difficult person to show animosity towards. I mean, he's one of the sweetest people ever. He's so kind and uh. I also was like totally starstruck, you know. I mean as a as a as a as a child of the late eighties and early nineties, you know, saw Jurassic Park about a thousand times at the cineplex in Wilmington, Delaware, where I grew up.

You know, he was a superstar to me. And then, of course, not to mention the father of the Bride film.

Hello, I remember thinking, well, it's going to be really hard to attack this, uh, this very.

Sweet man that I look up to.

Uh.

And then but the kind of the real highlight of that scene was getting uh, you know, thrown against the wall by.

Was it was it icy me?

It's maloney.

Yeah, I was like I remember them just like rushing into the room and and uh and you know, being being hoisted against against the wall by him was like I really felt that was like that was.

The day where I was like, oh, I'm on it. I'm on an episode of this speak.

It's also a lot of people's sexual fantasies.

Right, I know, I feel so lucky.

You know what felt more iconic being in the interrogation room or in the courtroom.

I guess maybe the courtroom because like the stakes feel when you're filming those scenes, like the stakes do feel very high. There's a lot of extras in the room. It's a big set. They've got crane shots to kind of show the depth of the room. The interrogation room is obviously incredibly iconic, but it's it's a much more of a smaller, kind of intimate way of filming. But the courtroom definitely felt like we were doing you know, like a little play. And then you have usually like

Would you rather go on a night on the town with theater actors or screen actors?

Hmmm, probably theater actors. Yeah, I feel like.

Because on the with the theater schedule, you it tends to be a little bit more forgiving because you don't have to get up, you know, at like four o'clock, five o'clock in the morning to get to set and go to hair and makeup.

You can sleep in a little bit.

So theater people they can really rage when the night is right, they can really throw down.

Yeah, but this is we talk about this a lot anytime we have a Broadway baby on.

But like, what is what do you do for your throat? Like can you drink?

Like what is the pacing of your fun life versus the like you know, getting your vocal cords?

I know, well, I will say that like a musical.

If you're doing a musical, and I've done a couple of those, that's it's a lot harder to have, like any kind of life. It's just so hard to have a life or a social life because the recovery that is needed to be able to get back up on stage the next night is so intense. So you really like your your tank is it gets depleted so fast.

On that schedule.

When you're doing a play, it feels like so much fun because you still obviously have to bring like you can't get to rundown throughout the week, but it's a little bit more forgiving if you're not singing and dancing at the same time. It's just an extra kind of physical level to things. And yes, you don't really see anybody doing it during the week. That the weird thing about theater is that theater people for them their weekend starts Sunday night and basically just Sunday night because you

Yeah, it's like the SNL schedule. You guys, just have your one day.

One day outside of the obvious, what are like pet peeves you have with an audience or like things that we should not do.

M this this is one where I can't, like, I know, the obvious ones are like you know, cell phones. Still, it's crazy, you know, even with all of the announcements, you'll still have somebody's phonem going off or somebody checking their phone, and then you can like you can see it in the dark, you know, you'll just see like this illuminated face looking down.

It's like, oh, they're on their phone.

Yeah.

Uh, that that can be That can be really distracting, the one thing. And I can't really fault people for this because it's a very Pavlovian response, but like what like, for example, when I did Long Days Journey to Night, I was playing a character that had tuberculosis, and it's in the script that I mean, he's coughing constantly because

Somebody in the balcony will go, oh, do I have to cough?

Yeah?

I think I do, and then somebody down in the orchestra hears that, and then they cough and it will ripple effect for the next thirty some seconds. I swear it happened almost every show of Long Days whenever my character would cough or sound rasty. It would kind of trigger this response of people clearing their throat or call in the audience.

And I get it.

I know sometimes you hear it and it triggers it within you. Probably I've been there, but that would get frustrating because then you're kind of fighting with the sound for that for the next like minute or so.

Yeah, like stop coughing.

Yeah, the phone thing is killer. I can't imagine.

Whenever I've been at shows where it happens, it's always just like an old person that doesn't know how to turn it off then and they're like I can't find it, Like it's always, you know, and it just.

Kind of will ring and ring and ring, Yeah, until until it's done, until it's over. Yeah, it's it's I don't know, it's funny ease. I play music as well, like I play my own music and I do shows with my band. I do kind of solo acoustic shows as well. And it's what I've noticed, like I'm so much more forgiving, Like in a night like that, it feels very kind of Oh, it's like I'm talking to the audience. Everything can be off the cuff, like a phone goes off.

What are you going to do.

Somebody's on their phone. That's fine, that be on your phone. I'm just like, you're doing my thing.

But it is this.

Weird thing, like when you like, my standards are definitely weirdly different on stage doing a piece of theater, like then I will suddenly, you know, you can get thrown a lot more easily by distractions on that setting.

Yeah, the famous Patty Lapone.

Oh my gosh, jump off. I mean, it's just the legend.

Has anybody stopped a show with more power and assertion?

Then?

I saw Whoopy Goldberg in a funny thing happened on the way to Forum when I was like fifteen.

And she stopped the show to yell at people who were late.

Oh wow, people were late.

Going to their seats, and she was like, excuse me, and it was wild. They were like, but you know, she's a punctual queen. What do you want.

I think I'd stopped the show once.

I think there was a time once when I was doing American Idiot, which was the Green Day show on Broadways Green Day Musical, and my character kind of narrated the show and would like be talking kind of to the audience in between songs and so if something happened at that show, I remember, I felt like what I feel if I have to say something or it wouldn't make sense to ignore it. I think I told someone to put their phone away once and that one which is with shite, I regret, but.

I don't know.

I was trying to I was trying to have the punk rock spirit. I was like, get up people.

So is that a cool part to land?

Oh?

It was amazing. It was completely life changing.

Yeah, it ended up being about three years of my life developing it, working really really close with Green Day. They were like very very game collaborators. They were there in rehearsals and they were so supportive and we all got really really close.

I mean I met some of my best friends doing that show.

My girlfriend of ten years I met doing that show.

We're not together anymore, but we had a great ride.

Yeah, but you know, and yeah, it was one of those moments. It was I couldn't do it now. It was so physically arduous and intense, but it was a life altering experience and it will always mean so much to me.

Yeah, what is your music? Tell us about the music?

Because I was like looking at your Instagram and I saw your like you're you support other bands, but like you also do solo stuff. So what's the what's your band called?

It's just me, It's just John Gallagher Junior, a solo artists. I write all my own songs and put out my own records. The first two are available on Spotify and Apple Music and all that, but they're under I was in some I don't know what I was thinking, but I was trying to make it harder for people to find my music, I guess, and I put the records out under Johnny Gallagher. So if you're looking for my you know, my professional name, it usually doesn't show up,

That'll be really fun.

And then I'm going Asbury Park, New Jersey to open for my other friend's band there, and then I'm playing a full band show in Asbury Park in August with my with my full rock band, So that'll be fun.

Wow, a big Jersey Shore summer for you, I do.

I love the Jersey Shore, so every year I'd be going, even if I wasn't playing.

Yeah, fun to play some shows they've never been, you gotta go. So Fun's an amazing town. I mean, there's just so much history. And I'm a huge Springsteen fanatic.

So the Laura that is very you know, the mythology of all that is very powerful to me.

Damn, and you're bringing Delaware to them. There's two other people that are famous from Delaware in my head.

Oh yeah, Aubrey Plaza, Joe Biden, and now you you're a third Delaware person. It's funny they did it like this was a couple of years ago, but that like, you know, Delaware Today or one of the local magazines did like the top fifty famous people from Delaware or something, and my dad.

Called me and was like, well, you're in the twenties somewhere.

Really, I really didn't. I didn't stack up very high on the on the list. I was like, man, what's a guy gotta do? And Delaware to get on the map. But it's a small It's a small place, it really is. I mean I've known Aubrey since I was fourteen.

Oh really?

Oh yeah, I mean we dated in high school.

She stop, that's this isn't exclusive.

Yeah, I've known her forever. She's a dear dear friends or our families are close.

That's so funny. Wow, Delaware is really small.

Yeah, we met doing community theater together.

Woa.

She She and I were NBC pages together like before she started acting like she was right before me. So we knew a bunch of like mutual people and I would see here my improv team used to open for her improv team.

Oh that's too back in the day.

So like Aubrey and Neil Casey and I we were all doing theater together in Delaware.

Wait, Neil is from Delaware, he is. Yeah, he's my buddy.

I mean I know Neil well, like he was my teacher. We've yeah, like we used to hang out. I went to dinner at his house pre pandemic. But you know, my gosh, I haven't seen him in a minute.

I haven't seen him and he just texted me the other day about something. But I haven't.

I haven't seen him in such a long time, but you know he I mean, he took me to my first He took me into New York City when I was fifteen and took me to my first They might be Giants concerts because he was a diehard. They might be Giants fan. But yeah, I know I know all those guys from from back in the day. But I remember when Aubrey had the page job, like I remember himah, and she took my she took my family on the tour.

And then she got a job as a page on thirty Rock, like they cast her as a and that was one of her first acting gigs. And I was like, ooh, like good idea, but I just.

Never got to make that happen.

Do you have anything upcoming that you want to let us know about or plug specifically to our listeners if anyone's in Asbury Park or coming.

Well, yeah, on August twelfth, I'll be playing at the Stone Pone.

That'll be that. I'm excited.

I've never played there, played a couple of venues in Asbury, but that's a storied and historic venue, so that'll be exciting and looking forward. And then also I think that I think I can say this now. I think it's about to get announced. But in the fall, I'm going to Washington, d C. To do my third musical with Michael Mayer, who directed me in Spring Awakening an American Idiot.

Wow, it's called Swept Away. It's about a shipwreck?

Is it based on the book the movie?

It's not?

No, Okay, not related to the movie, because that's like an overboard situation.

Okay, right, yes, totally no, this is it's It's written by John Logan, who wrote Gladiator and and read the Puliszer Prize winning play and many other things in a couple of movies for Martin Swizz.

He's an amazing dramatist.

And it's this original musical featuring songs by the Avitt Brothers, so it's all their music. But it's about a whaling vessel in the late eighteen hundreds that gets sunk by a storm and then four survivors end up stuck on a lifeboat. But I'll be starring in that at Arena Stage in Washington, DC in November.

Wow. Huge.

Yeah, it's my first time back on stage on the East Coast in about six years.

So I'm really excited about that.

Oh so cool.

And then I'm thinking, I just feel like before I go, if there's any like any any.

Any little tidbits the two things I was thinking of.

I was like, what are the things I want to say about my remember, like my experience. See, I think I've mostly touched on the main things. The one thing that I'll never forget about it was Chris and Marishka.

They just knew those characters so well.

And I remember being totally totally blown away by that.

I liked his vibe.

Cool guy. Check out his music. He's allowed to promote his music and you're allowed to go see it. Go check out his music, and you're allowed to go to Broadway. Yeah, oh see the theater, guys. This is this is Broadway's time to shine now that there'll be nothing but Love Island, Tucson going on or whatever on TV for a long time. What did we think about this episode? So many twists and turns. I mean, it's it's a classic.

I mean we talked about it up top, like it really is an episode that has stuck with me since I saw it, Like Bad Wong just lives in my brain with all those little science facts and.

All those little hidden diseases.

Yeah, but it is like, oh god, it reminds me of that. What episode is it where there's like this Italian guy who can't sleep. Is it beef, No, it's it's it's bombshell, bombshell. Yeah, this guy where it's like only people from an island in Sicily have this disease that they can.

From an all Italian village of like three hundred people get it and they only live like a year after they're diagnosed. Like, yeah, they just must scour the internet for like obscure diseases and things.

But that's like what House does too. Did you ever watch House?

No, but they show up in my YouTube shorts, A lot of House shows up.

Yeah, at House clips House.

The premisive House is that people are always lying to their doctor. Like people will just come in and be like, I don't know what's going on. I suddenly am smacking myself NonStop or whatever, and then it always turns out that they lied to him about something and that what's

Was like in her pubic hair.

So she had some kind of like tick born illness that wasn't even lying that was making her so sick. And House had to like go under with tweezers and like take this tick out. But like that's at the very last minute of the show when she's coding and about to die because she didn't want to confess her affair. Like it's crazy. House is wild, but I did enjoy it that guy.

So it's just people lying.

I mean no, it's also like obscure medical things and it's all the point of the show is that House is like rogue and does whatever he wants and he's like a genius, you know. But like it's also like the bottom line a lot of the times is like just fucking tell your doctor the truth.

I know you're embarrassed.

It's like what I said about my mother in law working at the er, and it's like, oh, I slipped and fell and a light bulb went up your ass.

I don't believe that. Like it's just tell the glass, Like why are you putting it up there? I don't know. I think I don't know. It's it's horrible.

Like if a light bulb breaks, my butt clenches up because of that sliver, those slivers of glass, You're like.

Get out of the way, nobody step on it. Oh my god. Yeah, I've been finding glass in my apartment for a while.

I was yeah, I might need to borrow your my dice and slash your dicense my dirt devil.

Is not doing a good job. Yes, for sure, you can dust. Of course you have a dirt du I have a dirt devil. Oh disgusting.

But I also saw Spring Awakening on Broadway, and it's like, I just want to know if I saw the original castron on and I don't think.

I'll ever be able to know. I keep on my playbills, I know.

I actually just got rid of my most recent ones too, Like I just I don't know.

It's it's hoarting. I don't know why I do it.

It's like they're all in a trunk that I haven't opened in truly ten years.

Yeah, it's fine, it's oh yeah, you're seeing Titanic or only Broadway play.

Actually, so the release of this, As of the release of this, I will have seen Titanic, So I will review it in a couple of weeks on the podcast when we're back.

From our little break.

We're in the time machine super big now because we're taking a little break for August so we can go on a little summer vacation, because don't we deserve it.

Yeah, we're like New York therapists. We need to get August off. We're real people. I was about to say, we're totally Paris and we're shut down.

What we learned from this episode is don't let your kids put things in their mouth. And if they're putting you in hair out, they might have pika.

I know what I want for my birthday.

What I want an edible pencil, and then I want to bite into it like he did on the stamps.

Okay, it is today is August twenty two that this is coming out, but recording it earlier, so I have approximately three or four weeks to find you an edible pencil.

Okay, Okay, I'm gonna get.

We have to go to rent and then you have to rent out a courthouse, and then I'm going to sit on the stand and bite into the pencil.

And I have to instruct everybody that I've hired to be extras to not react at all. Well, I just googled edible pencils and I do not like what I'm finding. Okay, let's move on, guys. Let's get to our what would Sister Peg do this? That's our weekly segment where we direct you to more information about what we covered in today's episode, be it a documentary, an article, a charitable organization,

Poisoning can have on children.

As we learned in this episode, at high levels of exposure, lad attack the brain and central nervous system. It can cause cooma, convulsions, even death. Children who survive severe lead poisoning may be left with intellectual disability and behavioral disorders. So this article showcases some of the main roots for exposure to lead poisoning and for more info you can

Thank you so much for doing that. And next we will be what why do I sound like a robot?

All right? Next? I'm fun. I'm a fun girl. I'm not a robot, all right.

Next week we'll be doing the episode Totem Season twelve, Episode twenty Get into It, Baby Boom Boom, goes the dynamite. We're obsessed with all of you. See you next week. Hopefully we weren't too wild before we were.

I don't know what they always are.

Bye, guys, That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production. If you have compliments you'd like to give us, or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email at That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com. Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod and on Twitter at Messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Klank and.

At Glitter Cheese.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our producer Kacy O'Brien.

And to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cotner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly gen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgareff, Daniel Kramer and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

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