Infiltrated w/ Maria Thayer

Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies these episodes are based on.

These are our stories, done done.

Hello, Welcome to That's Messed Up an SVU podcast. I am Lisa and I am Kara.

This is our podcast where we talk about Law and Order SVU, the true crimes that the episodes are based on, and we talked to an amazing guest from the episode.

But first we like to catch up and chat.

Oh I have did you see the breaking got Mic Nikki Glazer news.

No, So, a comedian that we both know, texted me from Atlanta. He texts at me and was like, oh my god, got Mic like pinched these two Nikki Glazer jokes.

And I was like really, I mean I don't know.

I was like wondering how specific it was and I didn't know anything, but I haven't seen.

Oh it's not too It is frame by frame throughout multiple roasts, like like the side by sides, it's insane.

Whoa She like straight up just admitted it. Got Mack. There's a quote being like, yeah, I just reworked them.

Oh whoa, Yeah, so you just didn't trust the source that.

It was coming.

I know, if the source was Sometimes I think I thought maybe it was just like a similar Yeah, I thought maybe it was like a similar premise or something. But I honestly have not seen a moment of it of the roast or the side by sides or anything. But I had gotten wind of this possible controversy.

And what's it.

I mean, what's wild too, is she also still did bad.

Like she wasn't in the top.

Yeah, like the jokes were good, but you could tell, like the it was off. And now it makes sense to me because she it wasn't from her. It was like ripped off. And then everyone online that wants to suddenly defend got mick when it's like, no, you stole a comics material blatantly.

But people are like, I mean.

All those people, all of them got jokes written, Like they didn't write those jokes.

Someone helped them.

And it's like, yeah, when you hire someone to help you, it's different than watching all of her roasts.

And then.

Yeah, and that's surprising from an all, Maybe she could have gotten away with it if it wasn't for the Tom Brady roast, like the Tom Brady roast really blew Nicky up to be like pretty huge.

And so this was definitely shot before that. So God, it couldn't have known that that was gonna happen. But geez uh right, I actually got to I'm actually working a little bit for Drug Race again, doing a couple of little things here and there, and I got to sit in on the upcoming season's roast and it is funny and and I don't think anybody stole anything, and they were very funny. They were really cracking me up. Yeah, wait, this is thrilling. I forgot that you would have the

It's I mean, I am hoping this All Stars has a little more stakes. This is ridiculous. I am like, what the fuck?

I mean, case in point, I don't think I've caught an episode since since Snatchler of Love or whatever.

I haven't. I'm behind.

I'm like two behind because well, you know, I was traveling and stuff, so I'm like two behind.

I'm still watching it.

I also actually watched I started watching Trixy's Max show, like Hotel Trixyte well because we always talk about like where does Trixie live? Where does what is going on? And they're remodeling her home. Oh, so we do get to see the home and so that's like pretty huge like side and we talk about it so much.

But also I'm really proud of Trixy. She's going on a four month.

Break, oh, off social media, off YouTube, off podcast, off everything. There's no drag for at least four months. And she said she's not coming back to this intense city ever again. And that's kind of a big through line on this Max show. It's like she's moving in with David the first time in seven years, and it's very much like I'm prioritizing our life. The drag is going to be in the condo, Like this is gonna be about like us, And so I'm really excited for Tricksy.

I don't know, Yeah, I was gonna say, because on the pod her and David are already living together. This must be be from because like before they were.

Well, no, they probably filmed it and now it's coming out. Yeah.

Yeah, I've got my son potty training this week for take two. Everybody, we're back at it, potty training to Electric Bugaloo. And boy am I excited that I get to go to work and be out of the house today so that Jared can handle it. And yeah, because they just freeball, right, that's what happens. They're just out there. Yeah, but now he he is free balling. But now he's like been pretty good because he's older now and so he wants to wear pants. Yesterday only one accident and

But yeah, that seems like a lot of years of that, like too much because then you have to wipe their butt for so long too.

Well, it depends.

Rosie was so good so quickly immediately sleeping through the night.

Nothing.

It took me three days, and then Oscar is my penance for being able to have an easy first one.

As I said erroneously, a.

Trick baby, which you were not allowed to say anymore, because now I know from this show is a baby that a sex worker has with one of her clients. So that's not how I'm referring to Rosie. But in terms of body trading, she's a trick baby. She tricked me into thinking it was easy and it's not.

But but don't you still have to wipe her butt? No?

She does this out and about that's out there wiping her ass. Because when I babysat, these kids were bending over and it was one of my least part favorite parts of the job. I would say, is just like wiping like five six year olds bent over?

You know, I hear you.

I mean honestly, honestly, I babysat for a kid who would go, can you like? It took him forty five to go to the bathroom every time for poop, and he would sit on the toilet completely naked, and then he'd go, can you come in here and pull it out? And I texted his mom once and said, he wants me to come and pull his poop out of his butt, and she goes, you don't have to do that, and I was like, I mean, I know, I was just calling to let you know that I'm not going to be doing.

I know.

I'm sorry I should have given a trigger warning before I started talking about all this.

But the thing is, I don't think this is the first time we've talked about this on the podcast.

I know, I think I've brought it up before.

That's the thing, because that's kind of one of my oh my god babysitting moments. Another one was when a family asked me to feed a five year old, like full kindergartener while he watched the iPad, like to spoon feed him, and I was like, that's I can't do. I was like, what, she goes just while he's watching the iPad and I was like, no, he can eat. No, Like, I don't do that to my three year old, Like that's just not I'm sorry.

That's for grandparents. Like my sister's kids would sit on the couch and my mom would feed them soup. Oh but that's because this that's just her love language. So my mom actually, before we were recorded last time, a bit like the Long Day my mom made like mashed potatoes and these little like I don't know, like wieners. They're not hot dogs, they're not sausages. But it's an encase meat and I'll find a better name for it. But it's like it's more white, it's lighter. I mean,

My parents buy?

So whatever, I ate it, Thank you, thanks for my you know, it's a weird breakfast, but I'll take it. So then but I'm I was talking to my sister and I go, you know, it's really difficult. Mom takes food so personally, like if you're just not that hungry, or you don't finish, or you don't need a lot, like she takes it as a personal offense. And she goes, yeah, she called me after the mashed potatoes and she complained that I.

Didn't need enough of them.

And it's like and then my sister to be like it's eleven am, Like I bet she ate as much mashed potatoes as she could. But that's like in my head in front of her Room'm like I just it's just too much pressure.

And now you're being monitored. Yeah, like you just know when you're eating, you're being watched.

Yeah, I mean they can't get to me. Now, I'm like a grown up. But it is just like and they're not gonna change, but.

It is.

But this time she could. She kept be like, I just I didn't even cook enough. And I'm like, you cooked enough.

It's fine.

I actually preferred to have some pizza on a like to chill out a little bit.

It's just too much. Got oh, it's too much.

Oh well, we were talking about this before and I hadn't had any run ins. But wow, did I get face to face with a lot of cicadas.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, they have went to the Cicada country.

What happened?

I mean at the pool, flying into our heads, on our towels, on the lifeguard's hats, like they just sit on you, like you have to take them or I would feel something and look down and a cicada was on me.

Oh my, oh my god. And then at the mall.

We went to my childhood moll and I didn't realize I hadn't been there in a few years because so many different stores I was like yeah.

I was like, they switched the Awnings. She was like yeah, like it was at one point.

So there's so many changes in the store, I mean in the mall, and a lot of them were fun. We went to Uncle Julio's I don't know whatever. We had a Martoria.

Oh oh, it's like a mall Mexican joint.

I got it. It's called chee cheese back in the day.

Yes, but this is like I remember there one being in Chicago, so maybe a local franchise. I'm not really sure. But a lot of changes. But then in the corner there, I don't know how to say it, Talbots. Talbots, Yeah, Talbots, you got it.

Talbots. It's still surviving.

I'm like, who is going to Talbot's And she goes, Mom, she goes. The older women of Skokie like that is yeah, they're just consistently going. And I go, yeah, I mean, who knows, maybe we'll be there one day. And my sister turned to me in all seriousness and said, I'm TJ mack till I die.

Put it on a shirt. That is so good. That is so good, and that's so true.

You and your sister are never going to wear Talbots. You're never going to wear Talbots. I would put absolute money on it that there's not gonna be a time you could be ninety years old in a wheelchair going into Talbots and you're gonna go none of this is for me. Get me out of here, thank you, And you're gonna tell you you're gonna tell the nurse that's pushing you to wheel.

You around and get you the fuck out of there.

Listen, I don't know why you're taking away the my you know, the usage of my legs.

I really don't. I said, look, you were not in my mine.

You're ninety seven, and you're just in a wheelchair because the malls are big, not you can't walk.

Malls are big.

My mom is in her seventies and she takes a wheelchair at the airport because the airports are just too big. But she gets so dramatic. No, she's so dramatic. Wait, were you in the car with me that time that she called me and was crying on speakerphone or was that a different friend? No, but no, I don't think. I don't know if I was with you or not.

It was Rachel. It was Rachel. It was Rachel.

Yes, and she was like, I left my laptop on the plane and like had to get wheeled backed.

I mean, please, but back to Talbots. My mother.

The underneath our you know, Jewish Christmas tree for years was just red boxes because my dad would go on Christmas Eve when everything was marked down and buy my mom all her presence at Talbots, like a true cheap ass. And so my mom's been a big Talbots person forever. I've spent my whole life going in there to find gifts for her. And I can say with certainty, no, there is not one sweater. There is not one sweater that I know.

I'm looking through it right now.

I see one dress, but it's like two feet too long, you know what I mean.

I'm like, that's actually a chic.

Pattern, and I'm like, we gotta, we gotta chop all out of it off. And then I see a pant where I'm like, I guess if I was in a Mexican resort, Yeah, and I.

Still think you'd try it on and it would not be what you had.

Yeah, there's just certain Yeah, there's just certain brands that I just don't You're not gonna I'm not gonna catch you in a cold water creek. I'm not gonna cut you into j Jill. No, like it's not gonna happen.

Well, huge news.

There's a Louis Vuitton at the Old Orchard mall now, so that's pretty That's the thing is that the malls are like I mean, the American has always been a nice mall, but like now it's like even some of the mid level places, like the Madewell's gone now it's like Gucci, like you know, oh no, no, there's still a made well, there's still a gap, there's still a Claire's.

Yeah, there's that ship's going out of the Americana. But but I would say stuff going into malls is like a newer thing. Like right, growing up, there was never a Prada or a Louis Vuitton in a mall that I where I was.

No, you're right, but Old Orchard we got Tiffany's.

When I was like in junior high, I feel which is all a Gloomingdale Sacks.

But you're right, it wasn't like that kind of a break.

We had Guess, which is definitely not Prada.

There's a triangle, but it's not Brada.

But I had this like aquamarine, fucking not aquar like a bright blue tube top from guests.

That I fucking loved. Oh my god, I loved. I wore it. I wore it down. I mean, I love our mall. I really love Old Orchard Mall.

There's something about an outdoor mall that is, Oh, you're in La, that's what's I was an indoor Chicago.

Yeah, psychotagic.

So in so in the winter, are people just like bundled up bouncing from store to store.

Or you're more like task based, You're just like I need to go to Marshall Fields. And you know, my my theory in life is once Marshall Fields closed, that's when class died. That's when our culture changed for the worst. I feel like the closing of Marshall Fields was the end of an era of Like that's when people started wearing sweatpants, Like I something about Marshall Fields to me. I don't think what Marshall Fields is. It was just gorgeous. It's like naw in its place.

It's fucking Macy's in the mall. But I don't know. Now I'm googling it, I don't know.

Oh it was an okay, so it is Chicago was It's It was an upscale department store in Chicago, and it was It closed in two thousand and six and it still hurts me, but it is. Yeah, the recession happened right after that was like the end of an era. I don't, yeah, but they had they had Frango mins, they had really delicious like mint melt aways. But my mom her company for Christmas, because Christmas is used to be cool, they would get gifts and big parties.

But we would get like.

Beautiful gift certificates to Marshall Fields and they were goldlined and it was just like I loved, and I would get at sports sack bag usually that's like what I would kind of want from Oh oh, all my Arthur All my Arthur's stuffed animals came from the lower level. The kids department, Like Marshall Fields just was like a class niced apartment store that I really loved and I love the aesthetics. And the one downtown was known for the window displays.

And I wonder, like how much longer we actually have with Macy's and a bunch of these places like the one in the the one in the mall, not like you know, the mall that I'm talking about near the big with the Big Target and the Chuck e Cheese near me. The Macy's closed a few months ago, liquidated, throwing mattresses away. Uh, And I'm like, how much longer do we have with these big department stores? Jac Penny, I think is out of business. Did you have Lord

Gone still there, No, of course it's gone.

Lord and Taylor and the Off we had like an Off Sacks off fifth.

Off fifth, Yeah, yeah, yeah, we had like a Chiller Sacks.

I would say, yeah, a Nordstrum rackety rack, that's a process the street, Okay, that's okay. And this Old Orchard Mall is in Skokie, Yeah, it's a Pride and Joy.

I would say, well, now it's like a Westfield, but I'll obviously call it George till I die. But yes, two movie theaters a pop Bellies, the Barnes and Nobles, where I spent most of my time.

I would say, two movie theaters. Honestly, Burbank, what's happening? There's four AMC's at Caddy corner from each other, and I can never find where I'm trying to go and I'm always late.

I'm as paranoid. Well you're late for different reasons too. You really put it to the limits.

I do.

I do you see the limits? I check Google Maps and I go.

I can leave it exactly this time to get there right at the moment that it starts.

I am, I'm bad, but I'm I tolerate you.

If you if Marshall Fields was a part of your life, please let me know. And I want to say, but I also wanted to say Macy's is trash because like the nice ones you're going for like a nord Strum, you're going for something the Macy's. Why wouldn't you just go to Zara? Why wouldn't you go to H and M?

Like that price pot I'm talking more like when I was younger, Zor didn't exist, like when I was growing up, Like.

No, sure, I just mean why Macy's would be dying out. It's like that price point. I would rather go on Asos or like Revolve. I don't know, it's just like the appeal of that is not the same as the Bloomingdale's where it's like nicer.

Yeah, but I think I don't know.

I guess because they do deals with like certain like Michael Kors or like they'll do deals with like certain designers, and maybe if you're looking for that specific designer, you go to Macy's.

I don't know.

I don't know, but I do miss malls, and you just reminded me. When I go home in August, I'm going to go back to my old mall. I haven't been there in years. They shot the movie's different. They shot the movie Scenes from a Mall at my mall with It's a Woody Allen movie with Bette Midler.

I've actually never seen a Woody Allen movie except for Blue Jasmine.

Oh you know what, I think I've only seen like one of maybe match Point was that a Woody Allen movie with Scarlett Johansson. They play tennis or something. I don't think I've seen that one. And then yeah, I really haven't seen a lot of Woody Allen at all.

I'm just a big I hate to correct you, Cara, but Scenes from a Mall is a Paul Mazerski film. It stars Woody Allen.

Oh sorry, Woody Allen's in it. Thank you for letting me know. But it is a what Allen vehicle.

He is in it.

It's him and Bemuler are like married and they're like wandering around them all and it's at my mall.

Oh, I actually met people, you know.

I was on the road and I go had some New Orleans Kansas City time, and I'd like to say, people like our long intros and they're actually begging for more. And they told me to tell Casey to shove it.

That's what they said, Ah, put the flag down.

But then we said, get Casey to have another flag, is what they say.

But then we get comments.

We get comments sometimes on like Spotify or whatever that are like why am I listening to twenty minutes of useless chit chat before they get to the point, like about reality shows I don't even watch, And I'm like, I don't know you're getting this for free?

Shut the fuck up, Like I don't know what to tell you.

Well, it's also like you could fast forward quietly and not tell anyone. But also, and I don't care. I'm not catering to you. I'm going to cater to the girl that told me that she likes it. You know what I mean, that likes us and what we have to say I'm not kid'll say.

When you posted about my birthday, everybody commented Casey, stop waving the flag, let them talk.

So I feel like people are.

Thank you guys for taking the opportunity of Casey's birthday to lecture about making us stop. And he doesn't tell us to stop. He simply waves the flag. We do keep going much most of the time past what he says, so he is really not like It's not like he's waving his hands and yelling at us. It's a cutey little flag. But with that said, maybe we should get started. We've got a great episode for you guys today, as always, that's messed.

Up Live dot Com. Check out the merch Baby.

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Later we find out it's four in the morning.

I don't know, maybe she's on coke, but she's very hyped and ready to get some cash out at four in the morning. She's wearing headphones and singing like why you gotta do me? Like that some made up song that she's singing, and then she punches in her pin. It's an extremely dark ATM vestibule, Like I don't want a victim blame, but like I would not go into this ATM mistibule. There's no light in it at all, and acting like it's kind of like a fun like moment with like the music.

It's very creepy.

And then she's waiting for her cash and you know there's one of these little ATM mirrors up at the top that is specifically for you to notice if someone is like coming up behind you at the ATM and in the mirror we got it. We see it a guy in a fucking ski mask and she gasps as like he attacks her, and then we cut to security camera footage of the attack. As Stabler's voice comes on narrating it. He's like Peter lofis Blitz attacked Chelsea Arndale

To trial, like fans. So her hair is like so of this hair.

Oh my god, it is absolutely two thousand and six hair.

The like flat like straightened into curlings like fair Fassip, but short and.

Different super but like none of the body of Fara Faucet like straight. He has like little wing tips on the bottom of every layer and very many layers. Yeah, it's like so two thousand and six, and she is in the courtroom like obviously looking traumatized, and it's better TV to have her still have a cut on her face. I understand, but Stabler continues that the purp also raped her, left her naked and semi conscious and bleeding profusely on

Clients in the face as much asshole energy.

He is good at his job and he does things that mean we don't agree with, but he doesn't have the disgust that like a Buchanan or right right Oil slickare Sidney Lauper's husband, Like those guys make me so mad, even Elizabeth Marvel. But he, I don't know. Maybe it's because his suits are ill fitting. I think maybe he's I don't know, I don't know. I mean he's usually consulted by it. Yes, exactly. There's something about him. He is kind of just like.

A good lord and he does like know the law, and he's not I wouldn't say, like the way that a lot of these gross defense attorneys that we hate, the like badger a witness into saying something that didn't happen, or just try to confuse them and fuck with them. I don't really feel like I see Kressler do that. He's just kind of like, hey, so yeah, this video is very disturbing, but I don't see my client's face in it. Do you see my client's face in it?

That's why we have his DNA.

And then Kresler goes and that's why she had access to it.

So he is in this situation.

Being more dickish than he normally is because he's saying that Benson is setting up a random acquaintance rapist from five years ago to do its investor ATM Yeah, yeah, it's it's you know, I don't know what these guys are just like doing it for the money, because this feels like you fucking know Olivia Benson didn't plant any chewing gum, dude. So then Kressler calls Olivia Benson and everyone in the room looks awkward and they look to the doors of the courtroom. Dot dot dot cut to

I don't I don't really know.

It's a lumber place. And then a guy named t Bone is there yelling that Lessinger Lumbers uses WMDs and it's not weapons of mass descript destruction, it's weapons of mass deforestation.

So these protesters are.

There to protect the trees like the lorax, and the Sheriff's department is like, okay, scram kids, get out of here. So we see like a pretty redhead saying this is a state for us. We have a right to be here. And I recognize this person immediately as Maria Thayer, who is Tammy Tamila Little Nut from Strangers with Candy, which is one of my favorite shows. Of all time, but she's also in a ton of shit. She's working lady. So then we see Olivia Benson with what I consider

But her hair looks amazing.

And I'm realizing her hair probably looks amazing because she was on fucking prenatal vitamins. If she has a newborn. My hair looked so fucking good. And then cut to a year later, gone out in clumps, not doing what I ask it to. So yeah, I think that's why her hair looks super gorgeous. Also the color gorgeous, the tossled bang, we love it. If you'll recall the first episode of this season, season eight, is called Informed, and it is where we first meet this eco terrorist group

I think you can drink unless you're building bridges a doctor like.

I don't know.

If I went to teach in my bank, I had a beer at lunch. Even if a teach traded beer at lunch, I wouldn't be pissed.

You wouldn't be pissed. But I think there are rules. I don't know if there are if you leave for lunch.

I wonder I'll ask my sister and be like, would you get in trouble if you had a.

Beer at lunch? Like is there something in your contract about it?

Because now I really want to know anyway, So I bet it would make teaching kids a lot more fun. So she is persephone James. Okay, this is Benson is undercover as persephone James eco eco activist.

Trying to infiltrate this group. The cops try to break it up.

One of them grabs Maria theayre and she yells, get away from me, pervert, and this activates t Bone, and t Bone hits a cop and then this cop just starts like copping.

He's beating the shit out.

Of t Bone, and Benson's like, all right, stop stop, he's not resisting, and then she gets knocked the fuck out by this cop and the scene fades to black on her beautiful face lying on the ground, passed out, knocked out, and then we're at the credits. So now Act one, Casey's entering judges chambers with Eisenberg making him pay for his little calling Olivia stunt. She's like, she was not on the witness list and he wasn't even up. I guess that means it wasn't his turn, Like I don't,

I don't get it.

Like this whole plot kind of hinges on that, and it's like, so Olivia's gonna come and go. I found the gum and the gum went into a bag, and here's like the gum is I found the gum the right way? And then that's it. Like I think that he's hoping she's not going to show up. I guess this is the whole thing is that she's totally unavailable. He obviously knows she's unavailable because he's been trying to serve her for a month. And he's like, well, she's

And going Elliott, Elliott over and over and this must just be.

Yeah, this must literally make the benchler people like cream their pants because they it's very sexual. She's lying, she's sleeping, going Elliott Elliott, and it does seem like a sex dream, and Maria Thayer, whose name is Hope in this episode, is like, Hey, who the fuck is Elliott? And then Olivia wakes up and Hope, it's like, you've been mumbling the name Elliott all night and it's like, wow, girl

And she's like, well yeah.

Then she's like, well, like I was trying to make a run for it and then I twisted my foot in a gopher hole and I snapped my ankle. And then Benson starts laughing, and it's a real belly laugh from Benson that I feel we never see, like I can't.

Did I yell out anything else during my hospital sex dreams?

And she's like nope, just saw that horny Elliot stuff, and then she goes spill who is he? And Benson goes nobody and then she's like, well it doesn't sound like nobody and starts like imitating her, being like Eliot Eliot and teasing her. So now we cut to Novak

Guy was such a loser in high school. It's been more obvious, I.

Know very much. That's very that.

So Liv is like, you know, I didn't hit you, and you're making a false arrest. And then they're arguing about like the details, and then the main sheriff guy strolls up and no one in Oregon can pronounce persephone. He also calls her persephone like none of them took mythology in high school.

And they're all struggling.

She tries to get the sheriff's help, and he's like, well, I didn't see the altercation, and she goes because nothing happened and there's nothing, there was nothing to even see, and this eyebald freak goes like you.

You seem upset? Is it your time of the.

Month, like makes a period joke like die in a fire and then live is like I can't imagine anyone perjuring themselves for an ass like you, and then they argue because she can tell he's a bad cop, and he's like, you know a lot about cop shit, like you've been in trouble before, and she's like no, and then he goes, well, we'll wait for the prince to come back. And you know, as a viewer, you're kind of like, oh, her prints are definitely gonna pop in

And he goes, I'm twenty five, and I'm like that is impressive.

I mean college, you get out at like twenty two and then to do law school and already be working by twenty five.

He didn't waste any time. He knew what he wanted to do.

Maybe he was not very good at it, I don't know, but he gives her all the info about getting arragined and she's like, you don't want to know if I did it or not. And he's like nope, because then I can't put you on the stand and some born perjury like and she's like, well, for the record, I didn't touch this jackass. He's like, so I'm going to try to get you out on ro R. She's like, reallyased on my own recognizance, like she knows everything that's happening.

It's like she's been undercover before, as like a woman who buys illegal babies for made purposes, you know.

Right, Like yes, she's been undercover so much.

And she's still like, I bet you got a lot of I bet you got a lot of dings on your jacket, like she's just using all this phrase that phraseology. That's like stop, you're like telegraphing that you're a cop.

But he.

Shows her this big headshot of a guy named Carl Dunford, and he's like you know this guy, right, and she goes, I don't recognize him, and he goes, well, that's weird. He works for the pharmaceutical company that your little gang was protesting last week, something about polluting a river. And then it turns out they just fished his body out of the same river, but it wasn't the pollution that killed him, and Olivia, still bad at being undercover, goes, what's the cause of death?

Like just can't go what happened, you know?

And he goes, well, I don't know which of the multiple stab wounds killed him. But you know, we're looking for someone with a penchant for freeing willies if you know what I mean, means his dick got cut off and boom.

This is a sex crime.

So obviously, now we've brought Olivia in on another level where she's intrigued. Back in interrogation, the sheriff is interrogating persafhone and he says, I've been looking at your group for a while, and then he shows her pictures of her protesting this dead guy's workplace, like this is you and your group at the place.

I still don't get why.

It's like you should know every single employee at this pharmaceutical company. And she's like, yeah, his company is dumping pharmaceutical waste into the river, including estrogen, and it's feminizing the fish and some of the male fish are starting to lay eggs, which wow, I had I had heard that so many people are on antidepressants. Now that the fish are on antidepressants, like that they go to the yeah, like through wastewater and stuff that Now like fish have like signs of antidepressus.

I'm like, whatever, are the fish happy? Are they having more fun?

Yeah?

Are they like, maybe it's not so bad.

They're doing more errands. Like I don't get what the fish are up to. I don't know they're living, they're eating healthier, Like what are we talking about?

I want to know that they're eating.

Better planked th they're they're maybe not just swimming around in circles.

They actually have a purpose. And I mean, I love this for the.

Fish, so anyway, but I don't know about the feminizing of the fish. I guess the malefish do not like laying eggs. So now someone has gone and feminized Carl Dunford. The sheriff says, sounds like retaliation, and Benson is like, dude, we are hippies. There has never been a murder in this whole group's history because we don't roll with violence like that. And the sheriff is like, well, what about

You are? You are, like you have spu tached on your forehead.

And then she goes to walk out, and he tries to act like where do you think you're going, and she goes, I know what's up.

You can't keep me here. I'm not under arrest.

And he's like, all right, well, don't leave the state and she's like, yeah, whatever dog. And so now we're at the FBI headquarters in New York and Novak is being told that Benson cannot be extricated from her assignment at the moment, and she's talking to this bald FBI fucker and she's like, look at my victim, Chelsea, and like it's a picture of her in the hospital right

Like our name is Dana Lewis. There's so many funny.

Things going on here because on this previous episode, right like Star Dana is like they're connected at the FBI.

One of them.

She knows that Dana and Benson were working together on an Eco terror case. And the ball guy is like, yeah, but Dana Lewis is not Benson's case agent, and she's like, well then who is. So then we cut right to FBI agent Dean Porter, played by a guy named Vince Spano. I like to imagine an old uncle of Jesse Spano from Save by the Bell. And I don't know. I thought I recognized this guy from other stuff, but I kind of looked at his IMDb and he's got a lot of credits, but I think I just know him

Him over to her apartment.

There's wine, she's wearing a hot dress, and it's so they can tap his phone through bluetooth.

From the other room.

So I don't know if they have they have some sexual tension, I guess in this episode, but it gets turned up later. Anyway, he's like shoving donuts in his face at some Oregon coffee shop and then Live sits down nearby and is like, wow, could you look more like a fed And she's like, thanks for leaving me hanging on the bail, and he's like, it's better for appearances. And also we read flagged your princes so that you wouldn't pop up as a cop, and so we got

They do not do anything illegal.

He says, look closer on that homicide, and Lives like, well, if it doesn't link to them, I'm not just going to drop a murder investigation. And he's like, if it doesn't link to them, you better let the local cops handle it. You're on FBI dime now, and if it's not related to eco terrorism, you back the hell off. So now she doesn't do that. You know this is Olivia Benson. Back Off has no, it doesn't resonate with

So she tells t Bone, you know, don't worry.

I stayed quiet, and he's like about what, And she's like, I just think we should get our story straight and T Bone's like what it's like if this is what's been going on for five weeks? Just Olivia being like, so, what's the code word? And t Bone being like what are you talking about? Like t Bone has no information and doesn't know what's going on, and she just keeps trying, and she's like, well, I mean it makes sense that they're looking at us. This guy was working for a

It's bad for the ecosystem. I would eat expired meds before they went anywhere.

Name I was gonna say the same thing. I don't believe in medication expiration. I'm sure we have nurses and doctors that are gonna write me and go Kara never. I've got fucking amoxisillin in my medicine cabinet right now that's like three years old that I am ready to use. So liv says, I think we should just chill on the demonstrations for a minute until the cops back off with this whole done for a thing, and Hope is like, who do you think killed him? And then they just

Can you tell me how he got along with his coworkers.

Man in parking lot does not ask for any credentials whatsoever. He goes this seems legit, and just starts gabbing about how his dead coworker didn't have any close friends but also no enemies. And then she keeps up the quote unquote interview and the guy's like, you look familiar. Where have I seen you? And she's like, oh, I cover stories for the paper all around town, but I'm under deadline.

Back to Carl.

Was he working on anything that could have gotten him killed? It's like, what is happening? I'm sure this man's been instructed not to talk to press, Like this is.

Such a weird seed.

They're talking over a chingling fence and the guy's like, well, I hope not because we're all working on the same thing. It's birth control for men, lol, which is I do have a stand up joke on my album about mirth control for men and how it's just like never They've been promising it for years and years and it's just never going to fucking happen because there are side effects

Don't put that in the.

Article, and it's like, first of all, birth control does not trap babies. It does not kill babies. That's another part of my joke is that nobody even understands how birth control works. They think that you basically take birth control and it just like kills every baby in your body, which is like not what it does. And so she's like, anything else you can tell me about Carl and he's like, well, he was conscientious, very kind to his elderly mother and

He threatens to arrest her and.

She's like, I'm paying my respects to Carl Dunfern's mom. And he goes with, what a poisoned tofu bunt cake? And she's like, it's a coffee cake. Test it yourself. So the guy from the pharmaceutical company must have called you, huh, and then it's like, yeah, he remembered where he'd seen you, and he was wondering why a protester was posing as a newspaper reporter and Benson's like, got it all locked up? She goes, no, I didn't misrepresent myself. I write a

I guess that's why the interview was so ridiculous. And he goes, I.

Don't know what you're up to, girly, but I know it's no good and I do want to murder this man alive or in a sleep whatever. She says, I'm just trying to clear my group's name, and then he tosses her coffee cake in the trash, perfectly good coffee cake. Well, what's your feeling on coffee cake?

Do you like it? I love it? I love intimens. I grew up on it.

And I don't know if I've ever had a coffee cake that was not entimens.

I'm sure you have. I love coffee cake.

Rosie's been bringing coffee cake home from school because they give it out in the morning as part of the school breakfast, and she's been like hoarding them, like she brings them home and then she's like they're really good, and so now I'm letting her have them for breakfast at home. Anyway, he says, if I find out you're interfering in this Dunford investigation, I'm gonna arrest your ass, Okay.

I do love this actress.

I think she's so great on that seventy show and I just like love her.

She says, Carl.

Left the house to her daughter, so she has a right to be there, but lives like not when there's a police seal, babe, Like you're tampering with evidence.

And she's like, why did you kill Carl?

And she goes, I haven't had any contact with Carl in eight years, neither did my daughter. I have full custody of my daughter. So Benson starts going through the bag that Deborah was holding and it's kitty videos, keen teen clothing catalogs, and she's like, well, your ex had

Like, he's the worst, He's the worst.

Donald above him, Murphy, Yes, And I guess I would put Star above, but you know not, because she.

Put Erica christians In above this guy. And she turned out to be a murderer.

So, but she murdered better than Marcia gay Harden murdered.

She at least killed a bad guy.

She kills a psychopath. Marcia gay Harden kills a rival in love.

Yeah, anyway is the number one FBI?

Yeah, bed wongs are number one, obviously, and we and he gets into the mix. He gets into the mix in this episode with his FBI connects, but this guy is sitting there with live and he goes, you know, the reason undercover agents need a psyche val every six months is to make sure they're not getting too close to the subject.

So what's up with the Soy Brigade?

And Olivia is like nothing, They're not doing anything until this dunef thing blows over, and then she tells him again that no one in her group killed this guy, and they also have nothing to do with EDGE. That's the Earth Defenders group and they're true believers, not eco terrorists.

You know now that this guy's dead, and she.

Goes, Dunford was a peto I spoke to his ex wife and this and this peach of an FBI agent goes and ex wives never lie, Okay, I guess like you can't truss anything anybody that's divorced, ever says, and he's like, focus on the job at hand and stop chasing phantom sex crimes.

This man, why wouldn't you listen to her? Though? Like that's she is at SVU.

She is, I mean, he pisses me off later more than I can I cannot fathom right now, but and you probably know the moment, but it's just.

Like, fuck off. They just are so disrespectful to her.

And honestly, I don't have any like cop friends, but my friends at work and offices in different spaces. The mentrey like it is just so frustrating, Like why aren't you listening to this decorated professional who's doing you a fucking solid.

But you know, I think even the lowest, lowest FBI person thinks they're better than the highest cop. You know, like FBI thinks they're just so much better. And it's like, little girl, you're like my informant, You're like my little person, and just shut up and do what I say, you know, he sucks.

He sucks hard.

So back in New York, Chelsea, the victim from Novak's case, is pretty upset, like she's like, why can't you find Olivia. She was at the hospital with me, she held my hands, she said she'd be there for me. I just want this to be over. She's obviously very very upset. She's been through a horrible trauma, and Novak tells her. Novak goes, Chelsea,

I just need this guy in jail.

And Novak's like, well, what if he doesn't go to jail and she's like, I think I'd kill myself is what she says. So now we cut to Huang walking out of the room with Chelsea being like ber b babe, and then he's talking to Novak and he's like, I'll talk to her and I'll let you know if this threat of suicide seems credible.

Novak goes, well, there's.

Three days left on my continuance, so I don't think she's gonna do anything before the charges are formally dismissed. And Wang's like, is that really gonna happen and she's like not if you help me find Benson. I'm getting stonewalled by FBI and I need Huang. She's like, I need you to use your connects and he's like, I'll give it a shot, but I'm not really in with the domestic terrorism dudes. I'm the sex crimes guy. There's not a lot of crossover. And then Novak's like, then

Next scene?

Of course he didn't stop, you know, like it makes it like sort of a seamless story. Now I have to pause for a second here and say that the actress that plays this girl, the babysitter, who I think her name is Christy. The actress's name is Carrie Sataro, who was actually also in the episode taken, the one where they staged the assault at the hotel so they

Oh oh my god.

Kind of fun, kind of fun little inside And Carrie, you are great in this episode. Thank you so much for messaging us and giving us the tea. So Benson is like, oh, is that Carl's baby And She's like, nah, I've had so many boyfriends since Carl. And Benson is like, girl, he wasn't your boyfriend you were twelve. He was your rapist and she like really like sadly kind of goes wow, I never thought about it like that before.

You know. It's like when we.

Talk about how young boys will be like, oh, I like lost my virginity to a sixteen year old when I was twelve, and it's like, I don't you know that that's not kosher?

You know, I know, but you know what.

Benson felt so bad when she told Maria Bello's mom and like revealed that that like why ruin someone's day and There was another case where Elliot and her were arguing whether to like show a videotape I was the smut episode, Like women didn't have memories of.

It, and they're like, but we need it for the case.

They have to watch it, but it's like they don't even know the rap book card, like do you want to know or not? And I do feel with this, it's like I don't know, does she need to know that or not?

Or will she figure it out or is it I am?

I was just I kind of do think it's good for her in her life to know that, what if her son grows up and you know, she can teach her son about this, Like what if she has contact with like other young people that are going through something like this and she can kind of recognize it and call it out. I think it's I don't know. I

I don't know, and it's kind of sad.

And then she goes, I never told anyone about me and Carl because he said no one would understand. And she said, at first it was awful, and then she said, and then it was nice to finally be loved.

So I don't know. Maybe she's from a bad broken home or something.

She said it lasted a year, but then when I was thirteen, I started dating a high school boy. Carl got mad and dumped me. And she has to go to her shift, so Benson's like, why don't you let me help and takes the baby and it's her own baby, which is cute, and Benson asks her how she kept it going once Carl's wife bounced with the kid, like, how did you keep up the rooms that you were going to babysit for this family?

She's like, oh, Carl would pick me up at.

School and have me duck down in the back and then he would take me to this cool room he had set up underneath the garage. So ding ding ding, Okay, Obviously Benson has to check this out. So she and her flashlight are back at the house and they're in the garage. She cuts the lock off this little door and finds like the way down to this subterranean room, and she flashes her flashlight down there and then fires up the flip phone and goes, I think I found something you need to see.

We love that. What do we need to see? What's down there?

So at the top of the final app the sheriff is coming downstairs into the secret room and lecturing persa phone about how many charges they're going to get her on, and she's like, no, thank you for finding the crime scene. So there's a knife on the ground and there's a bloodstain on the rug, and it looks like it happened during dinner. He was having steak, she was having pizza roles. Not exactly the marketing that I think Totinos wants. But so Benson is like telling the sheriff. She's like, look,

And he's like I can't, and she's like, I.

Just gave you everything you bragged about on TV, dude, like all your glory that you took during this press conference and he's like, I have no problem with you. And then in walks FBI guy and she's still in character as persephone, and she's like, what does the FBI

And then the.

Deputy ass clown shows up with a tip that's out of their jurisdiction and hands it to the FBI guy while Benson while he gives Benson a smug smile and I'm glad he's out of my life forever now. And the tip is that a trucker picked up a hitchhiker the Knight that Dunford was murdered and saw Brittany on the news and thinks it might be her, and he dropped her in Butteville, which is about twenty five minute it's away. So now Benson is like, look, that picture

Like, she hung up on me this second.

Hin Fin handed me the phone and Houang's like, why would she hang up? And Stabler's like, you tell me, FBI guy, and he asks Huang to tell him where she is and he's like, Elliott, no, like I can't tell you that, and he's like, I don't want to give up state secrets. I just want to make sure lives okay, and he goes, listen, I gave the message to my sac who I AM told gave it to her case agent. But they all know that if Chelsea's

And it's like, well don't they eventually like go on a weird date and she's recording him because they don't trust him, and sid, yeah, that's what I was so later there, then do they end up going on dates or like she's always using him. She's using him, yeah, because he sucks, Like maybe he's tall, but that's I yeah.

But I think she has to like push his hair back. They have to drink wine, she has to. She's wearing a dress, Baker, she's putting on the full court press and she's like, cause I watched a little bit of the scene and it's like.

Thanks for the invitation, glad you accepted.

Like there's a lot of little flirty flirts going on with those two, but right now he hates her ass he's pretending and I think he's in love with her.

So then something in the file catches Live's attention.

She's like, wait a minute, one of the friends of Britney's had a fort in the woods.

Did anyone check that.

I love how there's like a profile of all her friends and where their playtime forts are. So we cut to Benson and FBI guy searching the woods and he's being a pussy. He's like, louse, tud Beck, we lost the trail, and She's like, it's right here, loser or come on. So then they find it and it's not so much of a fort as it is like a full wooden structure with doors and windows like it is like a small, like kind of derelict, one room cabin. And she opens the door and they find Britney sleeping

I would punch him in the face. He deserves it. He deserves it.

What's it been five minutes, She's been trapped in a fort for a decade, What are you like, Yeah, you don't think there's a little true You just wanted to magically, like get info.

She's not a psychic. What is a hypnotist? Yeah?

No, Like this guy is terrible. There's trust, there's like I fucking hate him. Go work in white collar crime.

And imagine if Olivia wasn't there. Imagine if Olivia wasn't there, it would just be this guy. Yeah, yeah, it would just be this guy going. Just talk to us, just tell us what happened, you know, Like ugh. So anyway, Olivia's like, watch this, you prick.

Now.

Brittany is pacing around the room, touching the walls, and finally she's like, look, officer.

Whatever his name is. Porter.

I think his name is actually a Porter, which is funny because that's her future son's last name. She finally asks Agan Porter to leave. She's like, get the hell out of here now, and so now it's just her and Brittany. She's like, look, he's gone, it's just us two. She asks Brittany, why didn't you just leave his body there? Why did you like remove the body and take it and dump it in this river? And Brittany's like, I

To the river?

She says, I found a tarba in the garage. I wrapped him up. It took forever to get him up the stairs. I got him in the trunk of the car, and when he was gone, I drove back home. And then I wonder how she knows how to drive, like she was maybe from watching TV because she literally got kidnapped at ten and she's seventeen now, but she knew how to drive and get him to the river. And so she says she went back to like continue living in this room, but she says it was unbearable being

She's like, this is fucked up case.

And Benson goes to a one way glass where FBI dou Shee's hanging out and they're watching her talk to her parents and she's like, well, yeah, she has Stockholm syndrome, and he goes, she probably had dozens of chances to kill him before she actually did, and Benson's like, no jury will convict this woman, and he's like, no one's pressing charges. So he does one good thing this fucker.

And then she looks maybe it's like a real dig into Oregon, you know what I mean? One of the writers was from there and hated all their classes.

Yeah, that would be so that would be a funny easter egg.

So she goes like, looks panicked at this piece of paper and then runs off so now we're in court. Live walks up to Novak, who's like, where the hell have you been? And then there's no time for undercover stories. Get your ass in court. They walk in together, kind of a cool shot of them, like opening the doors together,

This is what I said before, Like, what's Live going to do with this trial? Right now?

Go?

I actually didn't plant the gum okay case. Close, You're guilty? Moving on, like, and did we get an apology from FBI?

No?

Did he go I'm sorry for being a dick.

He never said I'm sorry for being a dick. He said, you're actually pretty good with victims. I guess he's such a fucking man. Yeah, he thought he was gonna do bad.

I fuck. I liked sorry.

I also wasted five weeks of your fucking life, letting you just like hang out with eco activists that are not terrorists in any way. Like, isn't the FBI supposed to have more intelligence than that, like than to center with like the fully wrong person.

But when they were in Canada, now an offshoot or something.

I don't know, maybe it's Canada, I don't know, but I'm I'm excited. We got to see uh little August Herman's first television debut. I mean, you don't see his face at all, but inside scoop, I excited to hear about whatever crime this is.

I don't know. I think you should quell your excitement. Excitement. Is this gonna make me feel terrible? Probably?

Yeah, of course, think about the episode. Yeah, I just realized this is gonna be like FRITZL Part two. Never mind, I thought it was gonna be about eco activists or terrorists for some reason.

Oh why okay, no, so did I.

Yeah, we thought we'd have a little you know, goofy environment fun, you know, a couple pipe bombs. But no, not that pipe bombs can't be serious, you know what, Let's move it along. So these events happened to a woman named Natasha comtpush Campush. This is in Austria, so your Fritzl thing wasn't too far off or in the same God.

Why is everybody doing this in Austria? Oh my god.

Natasha did write an autobiography in twenty eleven and it was called threeenty ninety six, And in hindsight, I wish I read it all, but a lot of quotes, like a lot of the research I did was taken from the book. So a lot of it's from the book, and it's from her account. There's a lot of things that are not unique in this case, but unique in her and her thoughts.

And we'll get to everything.

But there's really unique elements that I had not seen before, even though the crime is too common unfortunately. So Natasha was ten years old when she was abducted and held captive by a guy named Wolfgang prick low Pill. So she was kept in complete darkness, and in a quote from her book, she writes, the feeling of loneliness hit me so hard that I was afraid of losing my grip.

Yeah.

A forensic psychologist told A and E True Crime in quotes, she struck me as somebody who was twelve going on twenty five, somebody who was pseudo mature, meaning their survival skills are older than their chronological age in some respects. That probably served her well end quote. And so she was born on February seventeenth, nineteen eighty eight, so a millennial. She was born in Vienna, and she grew up in public housing projects in the outskirts of the city, and

But didn't it seem like the town where like Aileen Warnos grew up, was kind of like nobody gave a shit, Like nobody helped kids that seemed like they were, you know, going astray and like just but maybe not bitterness as much as yeah, interesting.

Just shitty, Like it's kind of when you don't see a way you need examples of a way out. And if there's no example of any other type of life around you, how can you even imagine or.

See yourself out of it?

Yeah, and that you know, same with like kids and gangs or like if you don't see a future for yourself, I don't know, but that's not her yeah, yeah, but turbulent childhood. She did grow up quickly, and she learned how to navigate difficult situations.

Her parents divorced.

Her dad would take her to bars and that she he would stay out late getting drunk with his friends, and she was just like there at the bar, and then her mom liked to slap her around, and by ten she was already like very depressed, lonely, and a compulsive eater. And so March first, nineteen ninety eight, her mother was pissed because her father returned her late from a visit and she was like, you can no longer see him.

Fuck this.

And then the next day, the ten year old left for school without saying goodbye, and the Guardian the paper adds that this was the very first occasion her mother let her walk alone, which is an SVU heartbreaking fact that has happened before.

He's recurring. Yeah, yes, that's always the first time.

How do they It's like it's like because predators can tell who's like nervous and tentative.

I think, you know, they know who to go for.

Well, there's there's actually a few things that are like I said, there's a lot of unique things to this case and to her, and then there's a lot of just like fuck ah okay, like things are just so cyclical or whatnot. So camp Bush wanted to walk on her own so bad. It was her goal and becoming self sufficient, and like she wanted to get out, and she did have this like thirst, like I want better and I need to be independent and I.

Need to like do something about my life.

So she was like, I'm going to walk home, and so on March second, nineteen ninety eight, she walks to school. It's a five minute walk home to school, five minutes several walks from her home in Vienna, she saw a man standing near a delivery van. He looked out of place, and she did feel uneasy. And that's the thing that is a common thread between like Colleen stan To where there's a ping of something's not right, but you're like,

If someone wants to be a predator too.

Yeah you know, like right, yeah, yeah, But I was I'm like, the only thing I've really gotten from this podcast that you have to do is follow your gut and like the moment you have a feeling, I don't it does not matter, turn around and get the fuck out of somewhere, like I don't care who you're offending, what's going on. And then the response to me in the con I wish I remembered who I was talking to, but they were like, yeah, you're gonna seem like a

Yeah.

It's like Karen and Georgia have this phrase that's fuck politeness, because like, yeah, you have to just like listen to what yes, And I am absolutely guilty of doing that where I'm like, oh, he's just it's just a weird guy. I'm guilty of like totally being like it's not that big of a deal and like keep going and like get you know, and then the person is crazy or weird or bad.

You know.

Also, this is a ten year old girl, so it's like she felt weird, but like, how is she even to not to follow your instincts? She has no parenting, there's no one parenting her.

Yeah, but she's also probably like maybe this is part of walking by yourself. You feel a little nervous when you see somebody keep going, you can do it, you know.

Yeah. Like and it's a town of fucking weirdos. Yeah.

So he was a communications technician and he was like a loser.

Sorry.

So Natasha said he only had one friend whose name was Ernest hals Fell, and then his mother and so the mom and Ernst were like the only people.

That visited his house. So she learned from watching.

So we're back in the van, she's you know, Wolfgang's there, and she he watched an Austrian TV show that's a version of Crime Watch. So this is like another kid that like learned because people, you know, you would think SV and all these crime shows and forensic files would not be appropriate for children, but it seems like they do help children realize how the fuck to get shited

Are you married? Do you have kids? How old are you?

All these questions, and then she also right away asked her are you going to molest me? And the kidnapper said, you're too young for them. So he carried the child to a secret basement room and there was a concrete floor, and he'd clearly been planning something like this for a while. There was a trap door in the garage, then downstairs, then through a hollowed out concrete wall hidden on the other side of a small metal hatch concealed behind a cupboard.

Fuck.

She says she did not plead or fight back because she felt that she had to accept the situation in order to get through it. And at first he started off kind, even though she knew it was an illusion of safety, you know, because then it was pitch fucking black and she was alone in a basement. But there was a certain level of kind, you know, obviously he's a fucking you know, monster. But he gave her a computer, books, chocolate eggs for Easter, fancy croissants, and expensive toys.

But the toys were all toys that would.

Be for a toddler, like a train set, and she believes it was because he wanted to regress her psychologically to the aid, yeah, to like the age of a dependent toddler. And then the gifts shifted to things like mouthwash and tape, but she still happy to receive stuff. But then the classic monster move of saying so then he says to her, your parents didn't pay the ransom and they don't love you, So that's that. And now that you've seen my face, you can never, like, I

Me of a Lane from Seinfeld.

So she also said that she never dehumanized him. She writes, had I met him with only hatred, that hatred would have eaten me up and robbed me of the strength I needed to make it through. She's like, taken this out of like the Olivia Benson book, like you did what you had to do, you survived. When she entered puberty, Wolfgang dropped any paternal facade at all, and he started putting her to work, so she had to clean and

And that's what gets these motherfuckers off.

More than anything, I think is being able to have a Your thing is control, Like there's nothing more like, Yeah, it's.

Like they're basically training a dog. They're like, when I can take the dog off leash, that's when I know I've like really trained my dog, you know, like.

And she said, like on these trips we've heard before. She felt paralyzed to escape or ask for help. Then when she turned eighteen, she said to him, this situation must come to an end. One of us has to die. There's no way out anymore. And she said he was quite chill about it, like in a way that she was shocked by his chillness, like he also got that or something.

I don't know.

Yeah, but on August twenty third, two thousand and six, he wanted to clean his car, and so he ordered her to clean the fucking van that abducted her, and he plugged in a vacuum and gave it to her to start cleaning. But then his phone rang and he took a phone call and stepped away. So for the first time since nineteen ninety eight, she was outside and alone and in her like she just told herself, like she just said, like run, run, damn it.

Run.

So she raced through the open gate, and the neighbors were really suspicious of the frantic woman, and one homeowner finally did call the police after she pled for help to passers by who did not help her and they all ignored her.

Oh my god, so hairy. She finally ran away I now.

And she was held captive for a total of threeenty ninety six days, and that is the title of her book. The next day, she learned that pricklow Pail lied down on train tracks and the train the train ran over his head and he died. But my god, but before he did it, he went to his friend Ernst and confessed everything in the car and so then his friend

Yeah, but he can never like escape from jail and then like come after her, you know, like because even though you want to see him like jailed and like in a cage forever, it's like she might have the psychological like just fear that he could still get out or get parole or I don't know.

Oh, and another classic thing that always happens the cops got a tip about him, he was interviewed. They felt like he was harmless, straight up an early suspect because a witness had seen him in a white hand, but cops just didn't think he looked like a monster. Jesus always always these motherfuckers.

So now she is out and.

You know, a lot of attention, and unfortunately the first words did not really settle with the world really well. She said that she mourned for him, and so people were very confused and disgusted by her, and she started getting hate mail, which of course makes sense for people to do, you know, sending hate mail to a who was kidnapped and held and tortured for eight years, But no, for sure send her a hate letters because you don't understand.

Oh my god, So that's confusing to.

Me, but like, okay, wait, sorry, you keep writing that she owned the house. Was she living in it or did she just buy it to like have it and keep it there and so that no one could fuck it up or do anything?

Was she living in it?

I could not find definitive gotcha information on that, so I just didn't include it. It seems to me like she does live in it, but I did not see that anywhere, and I hope she doesn't, but I don't know.

I hope so too.

I wonder if it's like a reclamation of the space that you were forced to like build. I mean, she had to renovate it. He had, he made her renovate the place.

Right, Oh my god, it is so disturbing.

Oh yeah, if anyone has information on that, I mean, there's a lot of books and stuff, so like maybe I'll be able to like find out more and more, but not in what I had. Yeah, so I'll the book three twenty ninety six turned into a movie, and she was even a talk show host for a little bit.

So yeah. Her dad came forward and said she was lying.

Some German weekly paper printed it, that all everything was a lie and that she waited till she was eighteen on purpose so she didn't have to go to a foster care situation or be with her parents.

So I wrote, fuck you, how dare you? But not only that, she.

Said like she was offended by Like she was so offended by this, because she goes, I would much like she goes, my mom was a dumb bitch, but I would have rather had my freedom with this dumb it, Like how dare you fucking say that I would rather be kept in this fucking like that's the most insulting thing of all these lunatics that were bullying her, like that she wanted to be there overgoing to school old.

They're like, why didn't you escape sooner? You waited? Why did you wait till eighteen? Maniacs? That's what I mean?

And like she dose seem really smart in a way of like analyzing people and why they think what they think, and like how like she is really good. So then I found I stumbled upon a case I'd never heard of. An Algerian man went missing and he was held for twenty six years in his neighbor's home two hundred meters away from where he grew up.

Oh my god, twenty six years. It's just like my night it's just a nightmare. It's such a it's a Yeah.

I wonder if there's an SVU about this, but also this might have Yeah, he was taken in nineteen ninety eight at nineteen, so what's twenty six years.

I feel like this is recent. Yeah, I means he just got out then.

Yeah, this article is published twenty twenty four. Did this just happen? Yeah, this is breaking news, honestly.

Yeah.

May seventeenth, Algerian man missing for twenty six years found captive a neighbors seller.

Oh my god. And he's forty five.

And because there was such political unrest and war and fucked up shit happening, his family just assumed he died in the war.

And was not found. Oh my god.

Yeah, he disappeared during the Algerian Civil War in the nineties, so that.

Was ninety eight.

Yeah you were Yeah, this this guy just got found. This is crazy. All these articles are from literally nine days ago, like ten days ago. This is crazy. Oh my god, Oh my god. All right, well, thank you for doing this. Yeah, harrowing research. Liza Cheese. I wish everybody would just stop fucking keeping basements for captivity basements. Stop end the captivity basements.

And building them.

But if people are buying concrete, like I don't know, I.

Don't know what we do, like because when a lot of times when they're looking for people, they do like sort of like geothermal like things where they try to find like sub basements and stuff like that.

But we can't like check everybody's house. I don't know. Maybe we should.

All right, let's move on. We've got a fun guest, guys. I am so excited about today's guest. I mean, she is a comedic actor who you definitely know from forgetting Sarah Marshall and accepted she is was a lead on the show Those Who Can't on True TV. But to me, she will always be the beloved Tammy little nut from Strangers with Candy, as well as Hope the eco activist in today's episode, and that, of course, I am talking about the very talented Maria Thayer.

Check out our convo. Wow, welcome. We're so happy you're here.

I'm so happy.

Oh my gosh, I'm thrilled.

I mean, we'll get to it later because we have to talk as you first, but I'm like the biggest Strangers with Candy Fan and I cannot believe I'm talking to Tammy little nut right.

It's really really wild.

Well, and this is a dream of an episode. Just oh you know, I don't know.

I just watched it this morning, uh, for the first time in how long twenty years or twenty years.

Probably right, yeah, two thousand and six, yeah, eighteen years.

Oh my god. Yeah, I don't know if I ever had seen it. And also I don't think I ever have seen an SVU episode.

No, wow, really no, I don't think I ever saw.

Oh well, you're really lucky because you're in my favorite Mrs Hargate hairdo. Yes, that's Persephone is that's my favorite era her hair.

I wondered it was like beautifully curled.

Yeah, like I don't know that.

Yeah, I don't know that people would really buy her as like an eco terrorist, Like the hair was too good, Like come on, they certainly.

Made my hair frizzy. I mean, it was naturally pretty, but they did. I looked like an eco terrorist and she looked very cofft.

No, you looked really you guys were both very well good hair eco terrorists.

Yes, yes, yeah, because have you always been redhead you're a natural redhead. Always read hair. No one touched it.

Yes, less and less natural as as time goes on.

For all of us.

So okay, so you had already done criminal intent, yes, a few years earlier. Yes, and then this SPU part like do you remember like getting it? Do you remember them? I mean, did they just come to you at this point? Because but at the point time you did this, you'd already done like a lot of TV.

I think I don't remember, but I think that this one they offered me.

I certainly was not offer only.

At that point, but I uh, I definitely uh.

I think I think I for like a part, a little part like this.

I think that they becav maybe offered me.

I think in between, I had gotten a job, I'd done a play, and I'd gotten a job on Law and Order, the original one where I was going to get to shoot somebody in court, and I was so excited, but the play was and wouldn't let me do it. So this this came along like months later, and I was very excited.

I know, I'm so rarely the evil person.

I was just very excited that I could possibly get.

I'm also mad at this the play that you were in.

Yes, there was a lot of things to be mad about in that play. It was like a it was a vanity project for somebody, if I remember correctly.

But the year that you did this, SVU, I think is the same year that you play Will and Well, not Will and Grace. You played Grace's daughter on the season on the series finale, Will and Grace.

Wow.

So I wonder if SVU, like an NBC just had you on the brain with casting and yes, sent you this part.

I've done this so long and I don't understand what how Yes, oh yeah, But then when the show came back, when the show was rebooted, they just erased the thought of her.

I know, I know, so funny.

I think I said, behind the what of the creators? Is like, what are the creators like Max Mushnik?

Yeah, yeah, behind him in a theater at a at like a Stephen Sondheim play in New York like around that time, and he was like, I'm sorry, we had to, you know, make you not exist anymore.

I was in the final bow for Will and Grace.

Oh my god.

And uh it was just sort of a mistake because because they you know, at the end of every episode they would, you know, push everybody out and we'd all bow. But this was like the final bow for their you know, years and years of and it was me.

It was it was uh.

Deborah Messing, Uh, I'm gonna forget everybody's.

Name, MAKINGE. Hayes and uh.

Will, Eric McCormack, Eric friend of our Mad cast, Eric Well, so Zebra Messing. We just haven't had her on but yes, yes, of course your actors.

But they so they and then and then me and.

Who ever played uh Will's son went out there and we're all six of us bowing, and at some point I was like, this is crazy. So I pulled uh Will's son off because you know, Seinfeld had had ended years before that. It was such an iconic last bow. Anyway, we're in the last back.

I would have definitely been like, are we supposed to be here?

Opposite I would have stuffed myself into that bottle. Was more like you, oh my gosh, well you're also looking through your IMDb, it seems like you're in all the comedy got like you.

Know, Mulaney, Louis Marin, You're you're you're the go to Wow. I like that. Portlandia the League a cool. Yeah, thank you.

So when you were younger doing theater, like starting acting, was it were you always comedy forward or did you fall into that through Strangers with Candy.

I think I fell into it was Stranger with Candy. I I mean, I've always loved comedy.

At comedy comedy, I can't even and I love to laugh. I've always been a good laugher and I just I have such a great time.

But I went to.

Drama school like drama, and I thought that I was going to be like Juliet for the rest of my life. I thought I was going to be in Shakespeare plays. And I my first job out of school, Amy Sidera, saw me in a play at Juilliard where I had no lines and I just screamed and talked to myself. I was just like, very weird, and she told me she was like, that's she's like that one.

I like that one, and so they I love it. That's how I ended up It's Stranger with Candy.

And I think because that was my first job, it's like that has continued and I haven't minded.

It because I love comedy.

It's so much more fun to be on a comedy set than a drama set. It's just great. But I don't know if I'm like a funny I mean I'm okay, but like, you know, I don't know anyway. That's that that I think that has that has really uh, that show really pushed my career in a different way than I would have.

Yeah, we also love hearing a plucked from a play story.

Oh yeah, that's amazing.

I mean, Amy Sedaris is just like I'm so obsessed with her, like, and what I love is that your character in Stranger with Candy is Tammy little Nut and then she calls you Tamila, and so like on your IMDb it says Tamila, Tammy little Nut. It's like, like, that's your given name is Tamilla. It's too funan she so calls to be Tamba.

Oh my god.

So but you did say like being on a comedy sets obviously more fun. But we do do hear that Maurici guy's a good sense of humor. They try to keep it light off set. So how was being on the SV set?

I mean, again, it's been so long, but I do I remember a couple of things. I think she had just recently had her baby during like in real life.

And she was just like very I remember her being her.

Being very kind and uh and also she seemed like she had it all, like she had a baby and she was breastfeeding her baby. She had some handsome actor husband. I don't know if there's it, but she was like very handsome. She's beautiful, and uh, yeah, I I it was. It was a It was a lovely set. I can't say the same thing about like Sea. Oh, thank you for giving us tea. We've heard we've heard though, Yeah, sure we heard.

I thought you.

I thought I heard c s SID and I was like, oh, we've never heard that. Yeah, criminal criminal intent, we've heard that.

I mean it's yeah.

Well, Kara famously was a page during that time, right or I was a page at NBC, and I had to bring Vincentinofrio and Catherine Urby like spa packages and he would not come out of his trailer for like the whole day because it was too hot, and so they were just holding filming for hours and hours and hours because he's just like, it's too hot out.

I'm not coming outside, Like I've heard that, And then other people have told us that as well.

It's so funny because people are so funny because he was so like very like we got to get that.

We like, he did.

Something that I've never seen before or since, where he was like he thought things were moving too slow.

Uh.

And it's so funny because of course he's like slowing things down by not taking but but.

He was he was like we.

Gotta oh, we gotta go. And he was like, I'm gonna start acting in ten seconds.

Ten.

He was like a countdown to acting ten nine seven.

He's like rushing like all the camera people I've never seen it, rushing around trying to like like appease this madman.

Oh my god.

Anyway, there was one day on set without him and it was like the fastest with so much faster.

Of course, well, I hope he's changed it a little because he does play himself on BoJack Horseman and it's him being a maniac on set, okay, And so I just so hope there's been reflection, yes, because this.

Is eighteen years ago, so yeah.

But he I forgot what season it was, but he plays like this maniac doing a monologue on set while everyone's trying to work.

So I just hope he has a sense of humor now.

Yes, he's very here.

So it was so fun to watch this this episode just be because I I was like.

Oh, this show is really good. Your listeners know.

That, but I I didn't know how how how like how it hums along.

I also loved you in the hospital call someone a fascist. It was just very gen z. It was just very up today to me. Yeah you fascist?

Yes.

I was surprised at, like, how sort of funny it was?

Yes?

And did you guys have fun banter during that day? Like how, yeah, were you having fun in the hospital beds when you guys were coughed to a bed together?

I don't remember. I'm sorry, I I okay, I don't remember. I bet we didn't because I was so.

In awe of her.

But I can't imagine bantering with someone that I thought was a beautiful goddess.

Oh wow.

You know that's.

My my my way of dealing with people that I uh love and admire so much, I almost nag them. I don't mean to, but I just can't handle my emotions.

I met Andrew Scott at a party a couple.

Weeks ago, and I was introduced to him, and I had like I love him and everything I had just recently watched like some like three hour taped hamlet that he did on stage, So like that's a pretty deep cut in Andrew Stoff.

But he was, you know, wonderful in it.

Anyway, when I was introduced to him, I I immediately forgot his name and then asked him what his name was again, made him reintroduce itself to me.

Not not to like show him that I was better than him.

I just couldn't handle it, and then my mind went blank, and then I.

Just talked about wordle.

Well to the best people.

Now I'm a wordle connection strands mini crossword every day at midnight, I can't get enough. Like I'm out at parties, bars, events, on my phone in a corner playing at midnight.

I can't. I can't get it out.

You just to go bag bag baby bang at midnight.

Yeah, Or like if I can't get the war, like if if something's not coming to me easy, I'll go to the next game, I'll jump around or and I'll cycle through and then if I can't get it, I'm like, I'll save it for the morning. But I but I got Today's in three and I felt really proud because it, Oh Today's took me five.

I haven't done today's yet, but.

Yeah, sure I felt smart. It was.

It was a good one, a good day for me. But the Strands, So you play the beta game.

Yes, I play Strands.

I've heard about Strands from Andrew Scott.

Okay, okay, okay, I love that.

Yeah, I didn't know about it, but it's so fun.

It is fun.

My favorite element.

Lisa is my gateway drug.

Like we were both wordle people and then she's like, you gotta try connections when that was beta, and then I'm Strands and now I'm mini crossword. If I'm desperate, I'm even trying out the spelling Bee for a minute.

But then they came.

They asked me if they asked me to pay, and I'm like, no, thank you, I do spelling me too.

No, the Strands is cool because it's a twist on a game we already you know. I love that it goes wild, and I love that there's a riddle element, and I love that Andrew Scott is the one.

Who told you about it.

Amazing, he's at he's out there, so but he enjoyed your nagging.

He enjoyed I'm not sure if he did, but.

I wish I would have said something better, but I that's how that's how it is.

So that is so funny that the pendulum swings all the way from like adoration to like who are you again?

I just it's something deeply deeply insecure in me or something.

No.

Sometimes I always say, like you don't know what person will affect you in what way, Like sometimes your body just gets too excited, Like you can't always handle yourself. I don't know, I flop at times, and yeah, it happens.

Yeah, you can't handle yourself. That's what it is.

And you don't know who it's gonna be, Like it's kind of shocking. Like one time I talk about this a lot on the podcast, but someone brought John Stamos to the Comedy Cellar and everyone fell apart. No one could handle themselves. And you wouldn't think it would be John Stamos to make everyone crumble at this place where a lot of celebs come through. But no one, no one behaved, nobody so funny.

Oh my gosh, wait, back to SVA the court.

You remember them?

Do you remember having to get a cast on your leg? Do they put like a do you remember you ast or like, what's do you remember that?

Actually?

Because it was so uh no, it wasn't it real. It was just like it was just like a big sock. It sort of looks like it too. It's like I think it just like slipped on my foot. It was not a it was not a made to order a cast. It was just like all size fits all.

I felt bad for your character.

I was like, she's not gonna be protesting for a minute now, like, not not with a bum leg.

I was for someone who just broke their leg. I was like, I would have given.

Myself a little bit of notes for that.

That's hopeful because she was like but Benson was like, oh, how funny nature got you? And She's like, absolutely not. It's such it's a gopher joke, yeah, because.

You rarely ever see Olivia Benson cracking up laughing, and that's like one scene where.

She's like ha, and I'm like, I don't think we can. Can you think of another.

Time where she's like throwing her head back laughing, like it might be like one of two, Like.

It's really rare. Yeah.

I was saying, like Rollin's a season or two ago in the Mi Hotel room, maybe when they were playing wine. But yeah, they really like to make her suffer. And we can't think of another time where she's left so good. A pretty special moment that you got to have with her and her amazing hair.

Have you guys heard this?

I wondered if you I heard this, Rumber, but it was so long ago. Again, that Dick Wolf has.

A rent control lives in a rent control apartment.

Have you never heard that.

I've heard Andy Wopper lives in a rent control department near where I used to live on the Upper West Side that's like ten bedrooms and is like six hundred dollars a month. But I've never heard the Dick Wolf rent control. That would be the wildest thing of all time because he might be one of the richest people on the planet.

Yes, So Kara and I am.

We like to do a thing as friends where if one of us hasn't seen a movie that the other one loves, it's like a blind spot and then we watch it. And so Kara is about to watch Forgetting Sarah Marshall, one of my faves that I've seen so many.

Times, and I've never seen it.

She has not seen you in it yet, but she's about to But how fun is that?

What a great movie and what a great part.

Yeah, I that was really fun to be in Hawaii for six weeks with Jack McBriar, who I love. Uh and uh. We never thought it was going to be anything because it just seemed like so I mean, it was funny, but it just seemed like so like it just felt like sort of like not low red, that's the wrong word for it, but it just felt like we were all in a wai like I don't know, this crew was small. It just everything was being like

I have a lot of I have sex scenes in it that upset my mom, so.

Being really yeah, okay, yeah.

They're funny, they're not like nude, but my mom was like really upset after I did that movie. They're just they're they're just like joke.

I grew up in a very Christian household, so yeah it was. But recently I ran into somebody that had seen it was like, I know you, I know you from somewhere. This is a Montana And then and then she realized that she had seen me in forgetting her Marshall and she's like, oh oh, I saw you and I and it was obviously like she was embarrassed that she had like, oh my god, se me pretend to have like joking sex with Jack mcgaar.

And was like felt like she I don't know. It was a Montana version of like a porn star.

I guess.

Yeahh my god, that's so funny.

What do you get recognized the most?

For like when people come up to on the street, are they like Tammy little nutt Are they like talking about you know?

No, it's it's it's it's really different.

And always it's a lot of times I can tell like if something went to another platform, you know, like yeah, like last summer, except it had been on Netflix, I think, And that's what I got right now, okay, but I think it probably is forgetting Sarah Marshall or accepted. That's okay, you know, the cool people know me from strangers with candy.

Of course. Of course.

I think I actually saw you at a party once and was too scared to go say hi, oh my.

God, you were Andrew Scott. Yeah.

I was like I was like, oh my god, there's Timmy little not But I like didn't want to. I didn't want to like you know, bother you or anything. And I cannot remember. I cannot remember what it was. It may have been, yeah, it was in La It may have been like it may have been of those who can't think or something, but I don't know. But like I was like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna like I I can't, I can't. I'll be too because Strangers with Candy was truly my like favorite thing forever.

I saw that they were talking about another movie at some point.

I don't know, but they should.

I mean, everyone still around, let's go anyway? Do you uh what do you have anything coming up, like anything that you want our listeners to look out for that you're working on or.

Well, I've started writing for stuff. So I wrote for a a Netflix show that's coming out and I don't know if this I think it's coming out like May twenty. I don't know when this is coming out, but it's called Mulligan. It's the second season of a show called Mulligan and it's coming again on Well, it's coming out next week, so I don't know when this is going to be.

Yeah, it'll be yeah, what uh what sitcom?

Yeah, cartoon on what channel? Did you say? Netflix? Netflix? Netflix?

Yeah?

I've got a great Guynnie Kang lovely.

Yes.

Yeah, Dana Carvey.

Thank you so much for I'm sorry to remember.

More there there are. There are whole years of my life that I can't remember.

You know, we started a podcast about a show that's been on since ninety nine. We got a lot of people on here that have no idea and they are still graciously agreed to come out and talk about what they do remember, so we appreciate it.

All right. Eco terrorist, I.

Mean, let's get into it post mortem. What to do if you're an eco terrorist? Trust no one.

This is totally off topic, but it came to my head because we haven't really spent much time talking about it.

But you said you got the wordle in one. Can you believe it? What?

So what?

I got the word proud For some reason, it was in my head June Pride month. I go, I wonder if they'll do something like that. I wonder if they would do like something that was like related And I just put in proud and I was like, what the fun I've never gotten the wordl in one. I was so I was shocked, Oh so excited, but I was also proud of myself.

Kill have you done any Pride activities?

No, you know, I really want. I used to go to Weiho Pride pre kids every single year, and then they're just a little bit too young. I'm going I will take them in the future, but it's just very crowded and hot, and I think I'd have to have a stroller, and that's just I don't think anybody wants that. But I will take them to DragCon that is in July. But it's so cute. I took them to I took Oscar to Pickle, who she's a drag queen in La who does story Hour, and I took him to that

So it's really cute.

But no, we have not gotten into the Pride stuff, just because the end of school and all these camps and all this bullshit.

But I'm gonna figure something out before the end of the month.

We're going to do something for Pride. And we did take out a Pride Library book and we've been reading. It's a book of a rainbow book that you know, talks about pride and being yourself.

So we I've done that. I've done that much. But Pickle doesn't look like a pickle. I'm a little no no no.

But Pickle was there in the kid area when when the kids saw the Teletubbies. Do you remember what, like when like right by that area where we saw the Teletubbies last year that took Pickle hangs out in that little kid area. Oh I didn't know that, Okay, yeah, fact, and she does and she reads like stories and she's she's super cute. And Pickle, when she's not in drag is a substitute teacher, I think, or a teacher. So

It's like, I don't know what.

The post fortum takeaway is, listen to women who are good at their jobs. I guess and stop being a fucking asshole. And but Jesus, this freakin pharmaceutical man who keeps a big uh. You know, I hate to bring up bear or man again, but it's like what you say, It's like a bear is not going to keep me locked in a basement room with television and candy from the age of nine to seventeen, you know, fucking terrifying.

Yeah, that's terrifying. Bad real crime, bad episode.

But I did like to tell us about Natasha because I did not know about her story, and you know, I'm very familiar with a lot of other captured capturing stories, and that one I didn't know.

I think, you know, Fritz sol Goat the most attention.

Yeah, but what's going on in Austria? Do we have any listeners in Austria?

Thing?

I was even telling my sister, I'm like, there's like an article somewhere in the connection of like post Holocaust, like like Germany, Austria vibes.

A horrible situation. What a Natasha?

I mean like like I said, like I would I would not survive these situations.

I would not.

I would be like and we're done, like day four, I'd be like I'm out of here.

I don't know. I don't know how I would do it. I just don't think I could.

I could survive a lot of what the survivors we talk about have survived.

Yeah, I think, Yeah, you would really struggle being alone that long.

Yeah, yeah, I would be friending.

I would be befriending a cockroach very quickly, like Foster than Stabler.

Stabler did it in a day. Yeah, what would you do with nothing to organize? Oh?

Man?

The worst was in the episode's Stranger, because it's like, you obviously want to like be violent towards the person, but you know he knew the code. He would lock it on the inside, so if she killed him, he'd just like die there too.

So that's like, I know, yes, but so should I move on to our what would Sister Peg Do?

Yes?

Sounds good, okay? Or what would Sister Peg Do?

Is our weekly segment where we direct you to a I don't know, a blog, an article, a book, an organization, something to give you more information about what we talked about in today's episode and possibly give you the opportunity to donate if you want. But this week we wanted to point you to Natasha Campush's book that's called three

Go over there and give it a follow.

And next week we will be doing tomorrow's one eighty, so get ready to be infuriated in season fifteen, episode eleven, See you on the flip side. Murder Grade, Guys and gays and friends alike, Happy Pride, Bye everyone. That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Klank and at glitter Cheese.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain, and to.

Our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly gen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgareff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

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