Identity w/ Mary Stuart Masterson

Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on.

These are our stories, done done.

Hello, welcome to That's Messed Up an sv podcast.

My name is Lisa, my name is Kara. And it took too long of a pause. And you know how we do this. Every week we examine an episode of SVU the true Crimeate was based on and talked to some amazing star who was in that episode. And today's no different. We're excited for our guest. And I know you guys already got an episode since the Drag Race finale. You were probably expecting us to tackle it then, but we the order that we're recording, this is when you're

I mean it's impossible. Well, you have to try not to see it. You have to try hard not to get a drag Race spoiler.

But Lisa called it. I was sort of going for got mic just because I would have loved to have seen Simone on All Stars.

Now Simone straight up like when she came out in the handkerchief dress, A tear in my eye like I was, I was, I was blown away.

Also, Lisa was watching this at my house with me and two other friends, and I just want to tell you guys that when they were talking about like the lip syncs tonight are going to be by one artist, Lisa had her head in her hands and was like waiting for them to say, and they were like the one and only Britney Spears, and she was just like, oh my god, it.

Was like it was too good to be true that it was with me. It was awesome. It was so so good. And I saw that she is the most lip SYNCD artist of all of drag Race.

Oh my god. She has even her like B sides that I don't I mean, I won't say Till the World Ends is one of my favorites, or like you know, but if you pop a Maali, I think it'll be wine.

Yeah.

When they started sticking to it, I was like, this slap's just like every Britney song you know, like.

It is, uh, it is very very good. But I love got mic but she did lose the lip sync. You know, it is what it is. But also I would have loved a final two of Got Mixed Simon.

But the wheel is wild. That's I mean literally. Our friend Joel Kim Booster was like tweeting, can they not rig the wheel? I don't understand, like does this show not have the money to rig the wheel? And I've never I didn't. I never worked on the finale because I was gonna work on this the finale of season eleven and I had just just had my baby and they were like can you work on this? And I was like, can you give me like two weeks like have might like be with my baby. So I didn't

But also in the past, they made the queens choose who, like if it rolled on, you think you got to choose who you got who you want, So this was an extra twist that there's no one has control over anything.

It's all wheel based. Yeah, And I think this is what they did with the Silky season because I remember people thinking like, oh, this knocks out like a person you thought was going to be in the top two whatever. I mean, Candy muse as number two overall is surprising. I mean people are going to be shocked by that. Well.

I was listening to the Pit Stop with Trixy and Katya and they did sell Candy's reveal.

They're like, Rose's reveal.

Was very obvious and Candy muses with the white and the colorful.

It was a surprise. It was like a reveal you didn't see coming.

Yeah, I mean the Simone reveal where it's like, oh, it's a giant wig, there'll be a wig underneath, and then instead it was like ribbon flyers in a cert.

I mean that it was like a propeller or something. Oh, it was wild. It was so good.

But I love the nail look with the hands holding the pigtails. It's just artistry at its finest. Simone is reference on reference. Like today, I was looking at the details of the wig. Gigi Good made her wig and like there was finger waves, and then when you look at the nail dress, you're like, oh, it is a twenty style flapper and she has finger waves like it is reference. And then like the Medusa look with the jewelry on the armor.

I mean it's just so.

Thought out and beautiful and incredible, and I'm really proud of her.

Yeah, and it was a fun finale. I mean, look, it's it's not the same I was saying, it's not the same energy as the past finales where there's other queens in the audience and their parents are in the audience and it's really fun. But it was like for COVID, it was I thought it was better than doing it on zoom.

And you know, well we also got to see like magnificent outfits, like each of those outfits are like ten thousand dollars like those or maybe I'm just saying that, Please don't don't quote me, but it was to have a fashion show of that caliber.

Was Yeah, it was basically a ball. They just like did a ball for the finale, which is fun. We didn't love the Bet Middler number, which is weird because we love Bette Midler, but that was not for us. No, I don't need them singing in BOYD looks. I don't need that at all.

I don't need this little I don't know if any of them connect with Bet in anyway. It was I understand the AIDS message but I would have read it. There had a queen song and we do love bet.

I don't know.

I didn't, I didn't understand.

So what else is happening? I am extremely jealous because you and one of our other friends are going to New York next week. I miss New York so much, everyone, my friend. I just talked to my sister. She said it was pretty glorious to New York this past weekend. Like whether I.

Mean, I'm arriving on a Tuesday and I'm leaving on a Thursday.

Let's be honest with you know the quick.

But yeah, am I staying at a magnificent hotel that a network is paying for?

That's right?

Did I already make drinks and dinner reservations? I sure did? And I'm excited. Yeah, I'm excited, and I'm going to go to my coffee shop. I lived across the street from a coffee shop, Claudia's What's Up Bushwick av It used to be called se Lo, but I went there at least five times a week. Like when I moved, people were like, how are they going to stay afloat? I was ordering full banana breads for any party I ever was invited to the cold brew. I still dream

Like that, that's insane.

What well, sometimes because I'd roll out and I was like in my heavy stoner days, and I would just be like, I just put on a coat and bugs and walk on over.

You wouldn't feel like maybe I should throw on a pair of like box or like nighttime shorts or something to cover my no, because I have my coat. Wow, if you were wearing a dress, you wouldn't have to wear shorts. I just there's something about just being naked under a coat going to albodega. To me, that is nice bodgaf coffee shop. But I'm thinking of my personal bodega, which is where that was my regular place. And if I had walked in there in like a coat, bare legged.

Like that's like an SPU character off.

I did not anticipate this reaction. This is like the silverware debacle, because I I totally thought that would be a throwaway line of me just talking about how I'm such a regular I didn't need to put on collies.

All these things you think are regular throwaway lines are shocking to me. This keeps happening where yeah, I just like I would be. I have like an act of like imagination where I'm like, okay, so what if I got locked out? I guess I could just go down there in my coat and my underwear. But what if

So my freshman year in college, roommate, I like I had all these miscalls. I exited class and I had all these miscalls from her, and I called her back and she was livid at me because I guess she was in the shower that we all shared and I locked the door as I left to go to class, and so she was like, I had to go to my towel downstairs, and like yelled, and I was like, I'm so sorry. I didn't know. I wouldn't have locked it.

I don't understand what door did you lock to our dorm? We shared a dorm. Oh oh, and did you were she was in the communal shower? Yeah? I was like, well, the immigrant in me was like what am I saying?

What? No?

And I feel for her because you know what happened to me. I think this is the reason why this whole thing triggers me. When I was in eighth grade, we went to Washington, d C. The entire class on a trip. My mom bought me this like weirdly silky Christian door, like and not designer Christian door like Macy's rack Christian door or whatever, short silky bathrobe, and so like, I brought it with me on the trip. We all

All the time, and it's just it's thrown me for a lot. Wait did your student Did your peers say anything?

Of course, they were all like and I was like, oh my god, this is my fucking nightmare. I mean I had braces like it was.

Well, no, but Kara, my story gets dark. She refused to speak to me. She did not accept my apology, and she stopped talking to me fully, and I didn't want to live in a room with someone that ignored me, and I kept being like, girl, it was an accident, Like.

You can't really do this a little bit much. I mean, that's a that's a common mistake.

So then I ruined her life until she moved out. Okay, I put photos of myself all over the room. I like blared music. I would blow dry my hair in the morning like we were on a full out war. And then she moved away and ripped my White Sox World Series posters.

But wow, she knew how to get you wear.

It hurts, but you know, I acted insane, Like I'm sure she tells people like, oh, I lived with a lunatic who like ruined my life and moved to the TV whatever, But in my head, it's like, just accept my apology, like no, whatever.

That's also because that's one of those things where it's like, what if you had left the door open and you guys had gotten robbed, and it would have been like, but I left the door open because you were in the shower.

Like no, she was like, where else would I have been?

And I'm like, I don't know. See, the thing I liked about our dorms in college was we had codes to get in. Every room was coded, so like you didn't have to have keys or anything.

Wow.

Loved it. But then of course everybody knew your code, so the security was low. Lily Milly. That was her name, Lily Milly. Oh my god, stop making up names. Liza, No, it was no.

She had her last name I'm not going to say it, but oh that was her middle name. Okay, okay, I know Hannah is giving me this shut your fucking mouth sims.

Can we beat it? But that does sound like a child's like toy line, like did you get the latest Lily Milly? Okay, we should get started, because we have a great episode for you today, a real barn Burner that's from big business. Didn't I say barn burner one time and you said you didn't know what it meant? No, because it's but it's from big business. Of course I know what it means. Oh okay, I thought I said something like barn burner and you go, I don't know what that is, but it's going to be big.

We have listened to all of your demands, requests, emails, dms.

We are paying the ransom. We are doing identity. Oh my gosh, this has been from the beginning the most requested episode. We've gotten so many dms that are like, do the one with the twins? Do identity?

Like?

So here it is Guys, season six, episode twelve. And I don't know if this is a specific you know, I think this is too conspiracy theory, but it's about twins, and twelve divided by two is six? Is this a coincidence? I don't know, or is SVU communicating.

I read your note in the doc and was like, I don't think it is, but I'm happy for Liza to keep thinking that it is.

So the episode starts off zoomed in on a GPS in like a silver Sporty convertible car, and it's two guys that are trying to get laid and meet models at an after party, and you could tell their dorks.

One guy's name Melvin, so he's not getting any but they're like, is this the after porty? O don't know what?

Looks kind of Digiti And so while they're arguing, bam, a body falls onto their windshield.

So we're starting with a big, strong open.

So the pants are around the ankles of this guy and they know that he was thrown off the roof because there's no windows on the building. So already the detective work is out of control. Now I don't know, but the detective work is top notch, top notch.

That's a good one, okay.

And they're you know, Milinda, everyone's on the case, the detectives. Melinda's there and they're debating like, well, could this be a sex worker because two thousand dollars was left behind and if it was a sex worker, and they would hopefully take the money. So then Melinda is so funny and she goes, well, it wasn't a fat enough stack to cushion this fall. So that's, you know, some dead body humor, which I appreciate.

I like an Emmy with a sense of humor. Did you ever watch Dexter? Yeah, the whole thing.

Their medical examiner was a real who. He was like a pervert. I don't know if you remember him. I remember, I forgot his name, but he was a creep and I wonder if Melinda would go on a date with him or not. Anyways, I mean, she's out of his league. But and then Melinda, I don't know how she knows this, but the heart was still pumping when he was thrown off this roof. So he died with the crash. He has a Rolex diamond stud so they know he has money. And one of the jewelry pieces has sc A on

Yeah, these later seasons they do throw Stabler in a denim jacket quite a bit. Yeah.

If this was like a little Toddler's and Tiara's competition, this would be like a leisure where this would be his look for that. And then Marishka has like the Mom and Brady Bunch flip swoop bangs highlights.

Yes, yes, you're right, it's very Mom and Brady Bunch's very Florence Henderson.

Yeah, thank you for remembering her name. I was like, I couldn't a gun to my head. I don't know her name. And then we do get the wildest evidence given to us by our emmy. She says there are bite marks on the dick, so that's great information. And then of course the credits follow a moment like that, you know, bite on the dick, but bom so that's how.

They play with us.

So we find out the body is Luis Vega and he's been to jail before for a cell burglary. No like sexual crimes before, and he's been out of jail for six months and iced tea of from his previous work in other was it the gang unit or drug unit?

I thought he was in vice, but you get the feeling he's maybe done gang stuff too. Yeah.

Yeah, so he knows that SCA is a gang called Stone Cold Assassins. And I do need to preface this next time. This is the longest red herring and I think SBU history.

There is a huge long run around.

We cannot get into the details of all of this gang stuff because we have so much twin action ahead of us, So I'm gonna try to.

Scoot us along.

But this is like the Simpson style red hairing if I've ever seen one. So Munch remembers Claudia, who is a woman who accused the dead body of assault before the death of this guy and then dropped the charges. So they're gonna go visit Claudia. She's working at a fruit store.

She is rude.

She's like, what the fuck, go away, I'm not I'm busy. I have fruits to put away.

And then she.

Said she actually never made it into the gang because she didn't pass the initiation. Not really thrilled with this initiation. But basically, women that want to join the gang, you toss the dice and then whatever you roll is how many people you have to have sex with. And she rolled eleven, but she only made it through three and Lewis was number four, and so she left and then he attacked her in the stairwell and they're like, so you got revenge, You got revenge, and she's like, fuck you.

With a.

Mute, deaf, homeless woman. Is that politically correct?

How do I explain it to her?

She can't hear, she can't talk, and she's living on the streets, so that's the scoop on her. And they said that she was hot, so she's not ugly, and she sleeps on the roof. That's the scoop we get from the Claire's girls. So now we're at Saint Anne's with Sister Peg the none with all the heart.

She knows sign language.

So she throws on a purse that, you know, like a woman in a remote village made and then you buy it at a street fair and the people are like it's fair trade and she's like, I'm supporting this purse. So it's that kind of a purse, you know. It's weaved, it's very weaved.

And woven woven.

They find the hot woman. She is digging in the trash with an other woman named Betty, and she's like, go away. I was sleeping at Grand Central last night, and they're like, what, we didn't even say that last night. Why are you talking about last night? And so she goes, no, I went back to the roof afterwards. I saw his

But I do rip up my junk mail. I do rip it up. Do you rip it up? Or do you have a shredder? I don't have a shudder, but I rip it up into enough pieces that nobody can open a credit card in my name.

I'm shocked you don't have a shredder, and maybe you will, sue. Oh, Hanukkah, baby, your birthday is before Hanukkah. Come on, yeah, you're right, You're right. What if when you have your baby, I give you a shredder?

Okay? I I already.

Have your new baby's gift planned and I cannot wait to get it. Okay, but in my culture, we don't buy things before the baby is born. And I always am scared people think I'm cheap at baby showers and I'm not.

I'm just no, I'm totally superstick. No, I don't think you do. Okay.

So now, unfortunately, Sister Peg runs into the precinct.

She's crying Katie's dead.

Someone slit her throat, cut her face from ear to ear.

Clearly it's a.

Message, and Sister pegs up. But she did see the guy, which is good. Now we're at Theme's office and the bitemarks on the dick do not match Katie. But another twist in this whole story is there's a Y chromosome in the genetic tests of the DNA saliva listen a lot of science, so it's a man. So now we know the person that bit on the dick is a man. Now Sister Peg is able to finger the guy that killed Katie. It's Hector Ramirez and he has the weapon on him like an idiot. He has a dragon tattoo

Such a dorky fucking name for your crew.

Oh my god, it's very, very silly. So it's not a gang, it's a writing crew. They're in a rich kid's school and it's just graffiti rich kids just And what Stabler says, which I like to learn this, that graffiti is about street cred. So the three rules of it or how you get like street cred is style, volume, and degree of risk. So obviously this rooftop spring would have been a very risky place.

Yeah, I think this is all very interesting because you know, I love across the street from a high school, and there's just one blank wall in the side of this high school that is constantly getting tagged, and it's never good. No one's ever taking the time to like make a nice mural or do like a tribute to someone who died. It's literally just like a bunch of scribble bat and then they just they just paint over it. Two days later, I'm like, what are you guys doing, Like, what's the point? Well,

Big points, and I always I don't know if I've brought this up on the show before, but there's an episode of Project Runway from many seasons ago I've never watched with Carly Klass but this was a Heidi year but they called they had a graffiti challenge, but they called it aerosol art, and that always humiliated me. So finally the red herring is done, we are where we need to be, and we meet Logan.

Stanton rich little boy in a little suit.

So yeah, we go from full on gang warfare and gang rapes to prep school kid in a tie. And I love that. I love that shocking twist. Logan is saying, it's not me. I'm not scared, I'm pissed. I was home in my bed, back off motherfuckers.

And they well, they find they find Logan right because Psycho is his tag, like they have like a record. They go talk to like the Graffiti Unit guy and he's like, yeah, s y Ko is psycho. That's this kid Logan Stanton, and that's how they find him.

Right, yeah, yeah, So thank you for the detail. I obviously well, I was trying to show off how quickly I can get through the red herring, and I think it what, I don't know why that was my goal.

I'm confused. I thought you weren't going to get into it at all. You're like, I'm not really going to get into it, and then you did a full explanation.

I never know what to leave out of this fucking show. I love it all, leave it all on the floor. So Rebecca Hendrix is.

Here, what do do you say it? I can't even okay, So then enter Rebecca Hendrix, who we've met in a previous episode and has some sexual tension with Elliott.

Yeah, Mary Stuart Masterson baby, And so background on her if you don't know, is she is a therapist, but she used to be a cop, so she knows all the tricks and games and still has a detective spirit but has to follow you know, the hippocodes, and so you know she's always towing the line of ethics.

But remember that you say that she's always what is the say she's always like pushing the boundaries of ethics.

She's always pushing the boundaries of ethics. So she and Kragan are behind the mirror while Logan's being interrogated, being like, hey, he's underage, where are the parents? And Kragan's like, shut up, you dumb bitch. So they're having fun. They're having fun.

Imagine if Craigan said that sometimes, shut up, you dumb bitch, I would love it.

So Craigan leaves to go chat with Logan's parents who arrive, and that's mister and Missus Stanton.

And mister Stanton is an SVU alum.

He has been in a previous episode Privilege, and he's also an sex in the City alum. He's the guy who had sex with Samantha who kept talking in baby talk and she just said.

Can you stop these are my breast? Stop calling him.

Titty witties and he got really offended and left.

So I wait, can I also say that the mom I'm looking it up right now, really quick. My computer is the slowest thing ever. But the mom is also a long time Hillary Bailey Smith. She was I believe Nora Buchanan is her name on One Life to Live forever, huge part on the soap opera and a big part of my childhood. I bet that's a neil bergat Yeah, he's probably like and of course we all know her from one life to live as more if Buchanan.

One hundred percent, and you know they're rich parents, they're like, this is a mistake. What's going on? And then the greatest thing ever happens. We meet Lindsay who is Logan Logan, Lindsay, Lindsay Logan. This is a parent trap situation. We have one person playing both parts, which is.

Amazing gender bendy.

So the actor is Riley mcclindon, and this is the performance of the decade.

Honest said, he doesn't act anymore. It's really terrible. He was so good in this.

Yeah, you know, he found the Lord and he's working in the church, so he left theater behind the theater arts. He's no longer a thespian. I mean, maybe he's putting up some Jesus plays around Christmas. We don't know, but I wish. I mean, it's just like amazing. It's amazing wigwork, it's amazing acting and I just love seeing him shine like this. So she's full on, like, excuse me, my

Cut to saliva matches perfectly. Dunt dunt dum Okay, so the saliva is a match for this sliva found on Lewis Slash Louise's dick. Yes.

Then by going by a couple names, the bite marks match as someone named Liza. I should know to be respectful, you know what I mean? But I don't think people.

Do pronounce yeah. People pronounce much like your name. People pronounce it with yeah.

But I correct people and I have an attitude, so well.

Rip Luise. He's not going to be alive to correct people anymore.

So and then Rebecca, I love this. She's so desperate to be a cop again. She's like, can I come with you?

Please?

Like to best stabler just like hold like holding onto her collar, like begging them to go on the scene, and she's giving them some scoop on the psych stuff and like, hey, he might be scared to come out if it's like a gay situation.

Also like attacking your abuser.

Comes with more consequences all of this, and they're like, yeah, we're SVU detectives. Rebecca back off, but they allow her to come. So they're in a multimillion dollar home ready to ruin a family's evening and the mom is like, this is a nightmare. I don't understand. And the parents bring Logan down and go, why are you lying? Because they know that the DNA matches and they're smart enough to know DNA doesn't lie. And he's like, I'm not fucking lying. So then he goes, why is no one

Lol. Love that.

And then Benson fashion moment wearing a long sleeved shirt with a T shirt on top of it, which is a trend.

I rode very, very hard in my youth.

I loved layering, loved layering ash shirts like that, and it's great and I just fucking love this moment.

She's having very two thousands.

Lindsay says it wasn't her brother and it was her and she was alone, and Benson's like, it's impossible. The DNA is male. You're like, you have something is going on, and Lindsay says, no, listen, it's you know, my brother has a group for tagging and graffiti, but they won't let girls in. So I thought, if I can tag somewhere wild. They would have to let me in, and Benson says, but it's his signature, and she goes, no, he's psych Oh I'm psyche. I just didn't have time

She could have felt all of this in her.

Bed because like you know, they have the DNA, so they think she's lying and she still could be dune dun duhn. Okay, But Logan is saying in a different interrogation room, it wasn't me, It wasn't me, And they want to talk to each other. They really want to talk to each other. So they're debating if they should let the twins talk to each other. Our new best friend, Diane Neil arrives and she's on the scene wanting some scoop,

She cares too much.

And she's telling Novak that she looked at birth records from the hospital when the twins were born and that Casey should subpoena the records, but she can't give her the scoop because that would break her doctor laws. But Casey can't just like subpoena random shit, you know. So what Rebecca Hendrix decides to do is, I'll tell you what's not in there. She goes a ton of stuff is redacted. And the therapist that they are seeing is a sex therapist. Why are child twins going to a sex therapist?

Right? They're fourteen? Like, why are they going to a sex therapist? Yeah?

Yeah, And This really reminds me of one of my favorite movies of all time. But I'm a cheerleader. I don't know if this is in your wheelhouse, Kara.

I've never seen that. We have to do a sleepover.

It's RuPaul is in it as a boy. Okay, star studied Natasha Leone, who's an svu alum clea duval svu alum And I'm sure more like it's an amazing fucking movie.

But done and done. Yeah, it's just like.

A gender sex therapy, gay fun thing. It did some things to me when I would rent it from Blockbuster a week after week after week. It was a really important movie for me. But anyways, why are these teens with the sex therapist?

So they do allow the twins.

To talk to each other, and immediately they go into a secret twin language, and Stabler says that his twins had it, and Benson is like a regular old Karen and she's like English only, English only, And they don't like that the twins are having their own fun time.

And Hendrix is.

A super quick liar because the sixth therapist barges in and is like, I told you to stay off this. This is my case and she's like, oh no, no, no, the detective just wanted to see them. I'm just observing.

I'm just chilling.

And Casey's like, Hella, what are you seeing them for? And of course he can't tell her a duh law. It's therapy. I love that I could tell my therapist's secrets. It's honestly one of my favorite things. I'm always like, well, I can't tell you this, but I can because you're my therapist, and I love it. I love secret therapy rules. But it's a full on messine there, Like one of the twins is on a table, Benson's holding that like, it's just pandemonium. It really is kind of like a

This is enough. So now we're at.

My favorite kind of SVU trope. It's an expedition treasure hunt of witnesses and workers and characters, and I just I love this so much.

Yeah, this is a parade of nannies.

Yeah. So first we get a housekeeper and she gives us the scoop that when they come home from therapy, they lock themselves in separate rooms and don't speak for days, and she says, listen. They have a lot of nannies talk to them. So then one of the nanny says, they're violent little urchins. They have knocked down dragdowns. Which is that my new drag name?

Okay, knock down drag out? Oh did I spell it? Okay? The fights are instigated by Lindsay.

Mom always is bullying Lindsay, picking out her clothes, hair makeup. She has a lot of chronic urinary infections as a child, She's always running around naked, ripping her dresses off, and she had a lot of scarring in her little area. That is not the way, that's not my language. That's a nanny. So they obviously tell the parents, like, why does your child have scarring on her little area? And he goes she's had urinary reflux problems and needed surgery,

I liked it.

So the parents are getting pissed that they're being like interrogated like this. The detectives get no information. These parents have an answer for everything that they're being accused of, and so the housekeeper runs out and is like, listen, you're wrong about the kids. The mom caught Lindsey making out with a girl, and the mom is mad because there's like a lesbian situation.

So when the when the housekeeper says you're wrong about the kids, it's because it's because the cops are kind of implying that these kids are having a sexual relationship with each other.

Well, that's a really big thing that I missed. Wow, I'm glad you're here, Kara. Okay, No, there's a lot.

There's so much in this episode. So it's basically just kind of like, wait, so what's going on? Why are they seeing sex? If they're having sex with each other, you have to tell us, you know. And everyone's like that's crazy. And then the housekeeper kind of comes out to be like, actually she's a lesbian.

Yeah, so we get a lot of doctor Rebecca Hendrix, which is exciting for us, and she says, listen, Lindsay was born July fourteenth, nineteen ninety, but Lindsay's birth certificate was reissued six months later, so this is a big clue, Like, what's going on here and we need to get to the bottom of it.

Well, doctor Hendrix breaks the rules and pulls the mom's file from the hospital of where she gave birth.

Yeah, and she sees that there was baby boy A and baby boy B. So two boy twins were born. They were identical twins. Lindsay was born male and the mom gave birth to two healthy boys. So they're like, what the fuck did these parents do? So now we finally the parents have no more lies and they have to come clean. And what happened was the circumcision got

Love with, and YadA YadA.

But and then Benson says, but you thought putting your kid through a full on sex change operation as a baby was better for your child, And this just brings up I don't know, like, it's crazy how many choices parents make to protect them from other kids being shitty instead of people raising their kids to be less shitty.

You know, or open minded.

It is weird that you would do all that to be like, well, I don't want them getting made fun of, and it's like that sucks. I don't know, it's just it's weird that that's such a big thing because your kid will get me fun of for everything.

Well, yes, but I mean, but then they do get into the fact that they were persuaded by this therapist doctor Blair.

Yeah, and says one of the most chilling things of all of SVU. He says, it's easier digging a hole than building a pole, which you know, I guess I don't know. I've never done either, but it seems intense. And the sex therapist doctor what bias Bail Blair Blair, we have a friend named Blair. Not bragging, but she so she had to go through urinary surgery, remove testes, and a panectomy. And then Benson says, so you slap

You're supposed to hate him. If you're on the side of this.

Guy, you're supposed to hate him. So Stabler way woke than I've ever seen. Stabler says, you can't change someone's sexual identity. Where did this guy come from? This is like the woke Charlotte meme from Sex and the City. Like, I'm very shocked by Stabler saying this. But the therapist believes children are born sexually neutral and a blank slate, and gender identity is determined by nurture, not nature. So this was kind of like this therapists sweat dream he loves,

To do it? She goes, stop it, tell me what's going on. I feel like I'm going crazy.

And Rebecca barges in and is like, I need to talk to you, doctor Blair, and doctor Blair says, shut your mouth, and Lindsay goes in the verge of tears says, you know something, Please tell me, tell me. The acting is incredible, and she tells the sex doc you have to tell her, like you know, and he says, I'm going to report you to the review board of medicine. It's a very intense moment. So Rebecca says, you were

Gets to, you know, work his chops out.

And then we have a moment that comes out of nowhere where sister Peg is at the precinct and picks up I think this is just like maybe a learning moment for the audience, but picks up a check from the crime Victim's Board for six thousand dollars to give Katie a proper burial. And through doing this podcast, I learned about organizations like this that, like the government, does help victims of violent crimes in many different ways.

So doctor Blair was left in.

Jail for three days because Casey's friend who's a file clerk, accidentally in quotes, misplaced the paperwork and so he got like stuck in jail, which they love.

That's like funny, haha, when it's like a white disgusting sex therapist. But not as funny when like people are kept in jail for like three years for doing absolutely nothing because of random bureaucracy.

Yes, but doctor Blair should have stayed in jail because now he's murdered. Someone bashed his brains in and left the murder weapon and then the killer spit on him, so there will be DNA, thank you. Obviously it's the twins. Okay, if you're you know, Rebecca Hendrix isn't doing this. But the twins. They're very smart, very smart twins. They went to the movies together for a double feature. One of them did leave, but they were mirraring matching parkas, so

There's just a wall between them, but they have their ears up and it's like mirror imaging, and like, you know, the cops are like they came up with the perfect crime. Like these kids are smart, Like they literally know they must know about double jeopardy. They know about identical DNA, and they know how long it takes estrogen to work its way out of DNA. Like they're really smart. Who do you think killed the therapist? Which one?

That's such a good question, Kara, I'm so stupid. I didn't even think about it. I feel like it's Lucas, Like Lucas had more Yeah, yeah, you're right, Lucas had his life fucking demolished because of this dude.

But then also it could be but it completely also traumatized Logan, so they both had they both had, you know, well, because Logan could have been like I will do this for you.

I love you, so mu yah, and like I will fucking take the bullet for you and murder this motherfucker. But I agree with you that I do think it's Lucas because of the full trauma.

Maybe we'll put a little we'll put a little Instagram poll. That's exactly what we're going to do, and we'll see what the listeners think.

Yeah, the more gelled up hair is Lucas. And once you get on the Instagram.

All right, let's take a quick break and then I'll be back to tell you all about the fucked up stuff that happened in real life.

All right.

So this episode is based on the story of David Rymer, who was born Bruce Peter Reimer in nineteen sixty five as the elder of two identical twin boys. His brother was named Brian. They were Canadian born in Winnipeg and their parents wore Mennonites. So I don't know what the Mennonite policy is on circumcision. But the twins were not circumcised at birth, and it was later when they were around six months old they were having some trouble with

I think we'll use that video and post that on social media that acts out as an s.

I was acting out putting on a total neck for everybody. It's like when the neck hole is too tight, and

Of this of this machinery. Why would you choose to do an experiment on a baby dick?

Like understand, I don't know, I mean maybe yeah, And I hope that they got some money or something out of that at least. I mean, it's like so traumatizing. They decided since since Bruce went first, they decided not to do Brian. Brian went on to just his pomoses cleared itself up on its own. So that's even harder to hear that it would have just kind of worked

I just feel like I said this during the episode thing, but it's like he's contradicting himself.

Yeah, I think in some ways.

He is, yeah constantly where it's like if someone says they're this, they're this, and that's the way it is, and you're born in the sexual identity, but also you can change it fully by nurture, Like I just I don't get it. And his last name is money. I don't know how anyone trusted him.

Ever. Doctor Money does sound like a rapper, So doctor Money believed that a penis could not be replaced, but that a functional of vaginant could be constructed surgically. And that's where we get this it's easier to dig a hole than a pull phrase like that phrase is used in a lot of intersex surgeries and studies about intersex surgeries, like up through the seventies because of kind of this

I know?

Money, Diamond, It's like, And then Steve Annuity met him and no, so then Milton Diamond what annuity means? That's money? I don't know. I don't even either, really, So, Milton Diamond is an academic sexologist who persuaded Rhymer to allow him to tell his story to dissuade other physicians from doing this kind of treatment. Like this did not work. This is a field experiment. Let's get the word out, you know, because at this point it's the Jones slash

Yeah, how is four months gonna fully change everything?

Well, I mean maybe not eighteen months, but like maybe if you do it within a year before they even start realizing a lot of things about boy versus girl, you know, like, so yeah, his his view was that sex reassignment was the correct decision, and it resulted in thous of sexual reassignments for intersex people and probably people

And it's ego.

It's all ego.

It's like, yeah, because I mean, I went to college a long time ago. I was a sociology major, and like so much of experiments and ethics and all that, and having like a hypothesis is like you take the evidence as it is. You can't manipulate information to fit your hypothesis.

It's like totally unethical.

I'm really shocked that no medical boards or the psychic whatever psychology overhead people didn't go after him. And he is molesting children, right, Well, that's that's so nuts too of it. Yeah, I just I feel like he put these kids through more damage than could have ever happened to them if he just left them alone.

No.

Absolutely, I don't know if there's like I mean child in endangerment or like trauma, Like he definitely subjected these children to trauma for sure.

We're making siblings touch each other naked and take photos of them, like, how is that not child pornography?

I know.

So basically, what this article about doctor Money said was that like he believed that people had the right to their own gender identity and that they had the right to the medical means to be whoever you want to be. So it's just it's very confusing. I really want to hate this man, and then he has ideas that are good as well, but I think ultimately he's bad. You can't treat children like little like they're having a little sex play every week in therapy that's really disgusting.

And did you watch the documentary Three Identical Strangers?

Yes?

Yeah, did you watch it on a flight's No?

I saw it in the theater, Lisa. I saw it in the theater.

You know.

When I saw it, I got movie pass and was like, I'm seeing everything and I went to go see that movie first, and then Movie Past folded a month later.

But that reminds me of that where it's like, you can't just take children and decide to do experiments on them. Hello, doctor Mangola, like you guys, fucking Nazis.

You don't get to fuck with people. People have equated him in some articles to doctor Mangola. Okay, good, I'm glad. I'm not the only one. I'm glad I said his name, right. I was kind of a Now, did you nailed that? You nailed it?

No?

And it's really you know, I watched the Okay. So this story has a very sad ending because in two thousand and two, Brian Rhymer, David's twin brother, overdosed of antidepressants, which many people think was a suicide, and it's believed to be I guess, not totally proven. And then in two thousand and four, in the wake of his brother's death, his wife asking him for a separation, and him getting scammed in an investment scammed by some sketchball named Gary Perch.

Yeah. No, I definitely don't blame the parents for wanting the best, but sometimes you just gotta see what happens and not force something.

No, for sure, But I think also, like you're a Mennonite couple from Winnipeg, Canada and a Harvard educated New Zealand renowned sexologist is like, this is the solution. I don't know. I could see myself being like, Okay, what are we gonna do? Yeah, I've been to Winnipeg.

I also think it's important to note this is the late nineteen sixties. There's no internet. This is such a different time. This isn't today, So who knew what they were talking about back then?

You trust the doctor, you go to the doctor. Yeah, I'm just disgusted by so many things that he broke, like trust, I'm he's I just that's so fucked up.

I know when he died in two thousand and six, I believe, and he just never had to really answer for any of this, Like he just I think everything, he hit everything behind the name of science and then never had to you know. It's like it's like when that doctor in the episode is like, I'm going to call the medical review board on you, It's like, how dare you I'm going to call the medical review board

And in Three Identical Strangers, one of the triplets ends up committing suicide as well. Yes, like you can't fuck with people's beings and lives and siblings like that for in the name of science, Like, what the fuck?

It's really upsetting. That's a great call, Lisa. You guys, everyone should watch Three Identical Strangers. It's a wild documentary.

I gave a little bit away, but it's still just the story is pretty fucked up.

The story is very compelling.

It just goes against what therapists or doctors or science is supposed to do. It's like your selfish need to be some famous person is.

And it's kind of like with Freud, where.

It's like I can't believe how much of his stuff we used today, Like this guy came up with gendering to all of these things, and it's like, it's just shocking how one fucking fool from New Zealand is created so much of our language and point of view.

Who did this? But I don't know. It is very later, and there was like some research that was saying that like feminists, like radical feminists, were really pro money his ideas because they were like, this just proves that women are nurtured into being quote unquote the weaker sex, or like, you know, we're just as strong as men biologically, we're just as good, and it's like we get changed from society or whatever. And I was like, I don't know,

You want science, right, you're supposed to not have these like your like your opinions should not impede the science.

Like science is supposed to be objective.

You should not have I don't know if it's different for psychologists, but that's the fucking point is. Yeah, you go into it with a blank slate and you take the evidence, and that's what happens. You don't manipulate shit to prove your own theory. That's an egomaniac. Let's fucking dig up his body, all right, that's what I want. I want a fucking trial.

All right, Well, Lisa and I are going to go grab some shovels and we'll be right back with our special guests. Okay, now it is time for our guest interview. I am beyond excited to have this next Tony nominated actress on our podcast. You guys have seen her in Fried Green Tomatoes, Benny and June, some kind of wonderful.

You did reveal before we started you have a donkey, and I didn't think i'd be jealous, but I am.

Yeah, it's a mini donkey, so she's just like a giant dog.

And I got a mini donkey yeah.

And two bunnies and a dog, yes, a new wow, five month old dog that's as big as my eleven year old.

He's going to be massive, So that's insane.

Have you seen the viral videos of dogs riding donkeys?

No, I can't believe I've missed that.

You might have a bright future in TikTok. We are so excited to talk to you, like I'm just like a huge fan from all of your movies that you've been in. But then obviously your iconic five episode arc on SVU is what we're here to talk to you about. I feel like, I don't know. Your character just seemed like such a big deal. I truly was like, it's

You know, Yeah, that very that very special episode where I'm such a good shrink that I a cured stabler in like fifteen minutes without a comb break. I mean that's like, thanks, I should wear a cape and if only therapy we're that effective that fast.

It's great.

Well. I also loved your line at the end. It was so dramatic where he's like should we captain? Craigan asks like should we separate them? And You're like, only if you want to lose the two best detectives you've ever had.

I'll be honest, I don't remember anything, guys. It's really like another lie time.

I know, and everybody has lives, but we obviously remember everything, and everyone.

Well, we wanted to share that we've been in a few episodes, but you're the one episode Identity with the Twins is our number one viewer requested episode to cover really four hundred and eighty plus episode.

No, we get like a message a day that's like, you have to do the one with the Twins. Like, so everybody is obsessed with this episode. That's amazing, certainly topical. I mean no, yes, now I feel like it's really really an interesting It's it's interesting to go back to and just see the way the show is talking about

I know, god, what was it, two thousand and four something.

Like that, Yeah, fifteen years Yeah.

No, I certainly did not think of that at all. And in fact, I just I just always loved Marishka as a person, and ironically she's so incredible this brand of drama. But she is one of the funnier people I've ever met, and so people say she's hilarious. She's so funny, she's so sharp and such a lovely human. So I was like, yeah, let's do this thing. And also for all actors. At the time, I was mostly

When they reached out to you about this character, did they know that it was going to be sort of like a like a you'd come back a few more times or did you think it was a one off?

I think they it was going to be a recurring part, but only a few episodes. I think it was an initially I think it was three, and then it just you know, there were a couple more, I think. But yeah, so it wasn't it wasn't going to be a long term thing. But but it was fun being there, you know.

And who's to say it was your last episode? I mean, my god, it's still going Stabler's coming back, so they might need you to come back and sort of review how they're doing now.

It's still funny. My family watches the voice together because it is so much fun. And they were running the promos for that you know what as.

It organized, right, and my voice is on that promo.

No, and my husband said, wait, that's you.

That's your voice.

And I was like, wait, what do you mean? He said, you know, do you think you and Sablers make good partners? I think here's the line? Yes, and and I was like, oh my gosh, you're right, that is me.

And then you're like, I got to get SAG after all on the phone, because hello, you're in that promo and your husband is on SVO.

Yeah, oh such a bad guy. Yeah, we're always like purper Vic. You know, he's been both, but mostly I've been you know, the doctor.

So yeah, I wonder do you think there's any chances that she'll come back.

No one has reached out. I would not say. I would say the chances are zero.

I wouldn't say that though, because you know, somebody in casting has reached out and tell us that they listen to this podcast, so oh so, and it's not zero. If they come knocking, yeah, I would say I would put it at a strong three percent. That's very strong.

Yeah, I'll bring my donkey. It'll be great.

Oh my gosh. Sometimes they go up into the Hudson River Valley for the show. They they'll go see like a Jewish sect, a community, or like you know, they'll sort of venture up state sometimes. Why not. So, how what was it like working with Christopher Maloney, Because I mean we were talking about how Stabler like famously hates shrinks. I mean they're like there's all these like moments in the show where they're like, you really need to talk to someone and he's like, I don't need any of

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think one of the more amazing things about doctor Rebecca Hendrix was not just that she and a live I met at the Academy and that she completed that, as you know, part of her life, but she also went to medical school and also a psychiatric residency and was also the head of Bellevue by the time I was at the time in my thirties. I was like, wow, and in private practice, you know, so I was like, I'm extremely successful.

Yes, and you're a very an overachiever. Yeah.

No, I think probably it's you know, the knowledge, the deep knowledge of law enforcement in the Doctor Hendrix's background might have made them a little more willing to trust that I understood the job. But yeah, no, Chris is great.

You know. And they were there.

Everybody was just really great and really nice. And no matter who you are, where you come from, it's very disconcerting to come onto a show as a guest, especially if you're going to recur and supposed to have an actual character of it, you know, instead of just sort of come in and exit with the plot. So he was really good. He was really, really really good.

Yeah, he I mean being able to be like in a flirty situation with Elliott Stabler is pretty much like the lifetime goal of all of our listeners. So you've accomplished it, and very horny listeners. Yeah, they're really very horny for Stabler for sure, and I mean a few other characters as well. But yeah, but you and Olivia had such a like tension too, like where it was like you knew each other from the academy, but like she was mad at you for leaving, for leaving like the profession and.

Frenemies and yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, And it could be it could be strange to have someone get attention from Stabler.

No, I don't know, there's a whole universe where people, you know, create these relationships between these characters that don't exist. We're not super into that. But he has a wife the entire time, but in your specific episodes, his wife and him have separated. He kind of flirting with you, and she's like, I get you're on the rebound, but why don't you leave it at home? Like she's mad at him for flirting with you.

Good. If you're a therapist, you know to welcome the transference. Whatever gets your your patient to open up and trust you. That was that was That was all intentional.

Sure, yeah, did you do? Did you like when you're about to play like a five episode or a few episodes arec on a show as a psychiatrist, Like do you speak to a psychiatrist? Do you do any research before him?

Oh? Yes, I would consider the seven years of therapy good research.

Ah. Same, I'm ready for my role as a psychiatrist as well.

I'll have all the psychiatrists to follow, you know.

Can I ask a really random question, where does the mini donkey sleep? Does it go in the house or does it have like a little barn or what?

Yes, she has she has a run in shed and she has her own quarter of an acre really with them with vents around it. She's got a really good situation and we you know, clean up after, bring her her food, and she doesn't really go anywhere.

She's having a great quarantine.

She's good. She's totally good, no difference to her. She's like, it's exactly the same as it was. I see them more, which is good.

Just to ask you a couple more s V questions, we like to ask this one, but especially I think this is a good question for you. If you needed a detective, would you call Benson or stabler. Hmmm, that's a good one, Kara. Someone is missing, someone is something that has gone amok. Who do you call Benzoner's table are?

I mean?

I think I think Benson because it just you know, but you know, they really are so good together.

So true. It's an impossible question.

It's very hard because they you know, the yin and yang of it all. They're very good together, the emotional connection and the cerebral detachment. A logician versus the magician. No, it's hard to pick. That's Olivia though, you know, because I like no whether no founts to.

I know we're not positive Rebecca Hendrix is ever going to come back. But what about you? It's now been like a decade since Rebecca Hendrix has been on and they bring people back all the time as different roles. If you could go back to SVU, would you want to play something different? Would you want to be a cop? Would you want to be a bad mom? Or like what kind of do you have? Any kind of No?

I would you know what?

I would?

I would enjoy being on a show where I'm you know, a stablery kind of a part, like a detective or

Wait, I didn't know people hide scripts in their fake dead bodies. That's a scoop.

I feel, Oh, oh.

Absolutely, how could you possibly learn all of that? I mean, they have a gurny and they just tape the dialogue to a thing sometimes because they're like wow, well or the medical consultants or whatever, we'll say sorry, that's not yeah lingo, and didn't get the script in time, and they'll switch it out to a cardiothoracic bloody blah, and they're like, I thought I was working on the GI tract. Oh well, they'll just have to know it somehow, and that's how they do it. So no, some people do that,

Just read them off your partner's ches.

Be a hero man. Just don't make your eyes go like this left or right. That's a dead giveaway.

That was just truly thrilling for me. I know that. I think Lisa, maybe you missed some of her movies in your life, but like she was such an idol to me growing up. She was like such a cool actress. And I'm like so so excited we got to talk to her.

Yeah, And I am kind of very super into her life.

I like her hot SVU alum husband, her mini donk donk. Yeah.

I love her farm life and just living it up during the pandemic. And that's a weird thing to say, but I was just very into her spirit, I would say, and her highlights.

You guys didn't get to see her, but she looks amazing, No, and she looks so young, like she literally looks the same as she did, and like, you're like, I kind of get why Stabler was fishing around during a separation. But let's get into our post mortem. What did we learn from today? I mean, first of all, we learned that this episode was so close. I remember when people started requesting it, I was like, I got to check

I thought it was totally gonna be an episode of ours where we talk about theories or different hodgepodges of cases. I did not anticipate just this like monster of a therapist ruining the lives of these boys and parents and taking advantage of people in distress like they did. But yeah, circumcision is so tough too, and these parents in the case, it's like they decided not to do it, and then a medical issue kind of made them do it, and then this happens. I'm sure they blame themselves. Being a

It's just like a real fucking bummer. Well, I think the silver lining a little bit is that David did have years of like reclaiming his identity and living as a man happily, and he did have happy times with his wife and his three adopted children. And you know, it's interesting as the conversation continues to move forward also about gender identity and stuff like that, to think about people like this who were part of the experimental front lines of it, you know.

Yeah, Or like if people are born intersex, it's like leave them alone. Why don't you just leave them alone until they can decide what to do? You know, it's like to fit into these norms that we have in society that are just lame as hell.

Yeah. Also, we just want to point out we were thrilled and honored to get Mary Stewart Masterson to come on our podcast, but we did reach out to Riley McClendon, the actor, and while initially interested, he did take some time to listen to our podcast. And because he is now a man of God, he works for a church, he decided against it. And I think that's probably we're not we're not church listening material.

You know.

But he did.

I think he said it was like funny in a good time, but not for him.

I don't think it was a full on knock of us. I think it's if your parishioners or your fellow churchgoers hear you hear us, they're like, what exactly are you getting involved in? If he is listening, we want him to know that he had one of the top one of the top ten child performances of SPU history in my opinion.

Yeah, I am still curious to know how he feels about everything.

Maybe you could just fill out a questionnaire.

For us really quietly or something.

I don't know. I need to add something.

I learned that Lisa thought that that wig was good because I thought that was the worst wig SU has maybe ever had.

Lindsay's wig. Yeah, Lisa, I had to go with Pan on this one. Lindsay's wig was not a good wig.

No, And I didn't mention, but Mary Stuart Masterson in this episode had like red string delicate necklaces with a little shoe, a horseshoe luck charm, And I really did appreciate her delicate jewelry.

It is you have a real eye for us viewedjewelry. Well.

I love delicate necklaces and I love jewelry that I can see Jennifer Aniston wearing, like that's how I pick all my jewelry. If she would wear it, and she would wear that.

Necklace, is this delicate gold that glints against tan skin and a bottle of vitamin water, I'll take it.

I mean, is there anyone more iconic? Jenn Aniston? Get on SVU, you dumb bitch, We need you on.

Oh yeah, And she'd be good as like a villain, baby villain. I want her as a villain character. I don't know why, Like I could see her doing it a little bit old when she's a little bit even older, and she's one of those people that's like I paid for my grandson to do this so that nobody finds out about his indiscretions. Like we always have those characters the Angela Landsberries and like those older ladies that are like I threw money at the problem, leave me alone

Yeah, I think we need a messager sources and be like get the war.

I could see her as a like a madam.

Yes, all right, but let's go anything. Yeah, don't join a gang if you can avoid it.

I'm sure so many on the precipice of joining a gang. Members are listening to our pond.

And if you are going to join a gang, don't advertise it all over you because you'll get more caught by the cops. And if you're going to come at a crime, don't keep the weapon on you.

But also it is funny too when you get arrested for a Rico crime, Go who's Rico? That is funny. Okay, So now it is time for what would sister peg do? You probably know that this is our segment where we just direct you towards a resource, a book, an article, a charitable organization research about something that we have touched

Next week we will be covering Hunting Ground season thirteen, episode fifteen. Get ready for some scary shit. Truly one of the scariest, one of the scariest. And as always, they're on Hulu Peacock. Someone tagged us on a story they went to the library and checked out SVU DVDs. So that's another way to watch the show is support your local library.

Bye bye bye us up as an exactly right production. If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email at That's Messed Up pod at gmail dot com.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Karaklank and at Glittercheese.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to SBU superfan and our incredible producer, Hannah Kyle Kraton.

And to our sound engineer and personal hero Anali Snilson.

And to Henry Koperski for our theme song, to Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork.

Thanks to our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

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