Hunting Ground w/ Emily Kinney

Of the law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on. These are our stories, done done, What's up? I'm gonna say what's up instead? What's up? I'm Lisa, Hi, I'm Kara.

And this is That's Messed Up an SVU podcast.

Every week we talk about an episode of SVU the true crimeate's based on, and then we have a guest from the episode. And today is just the same. Oh my god, I just looked at my clock and it's eleven eleven. This is a good sign for everything.

Wow, this intro is going to change lives every yain. I love it.

Hey, and we had an eventful week because Real Housewives of New York came back.

Oh my gosh, Yes, we watched together and yeah, the girls are back. One third of the cast is sober right now, so we'll see where that journey takes us.

Yeah, I was I too high. I don't remember anything except Leah trying to be a jew.

That was. There was a lot of ad.

When it was over, you said, they're so cringey, and there is just like a lot of cringe in the whole episode, like Leah becoming a Jew Number one was like wow, like just a cringe home run right out of the park first inning.

No, the moment you said cringe, I imagine Sonya talking about the diversity of the Koi fish.

In her pond, literally to a black woman, was like, you want to talk about diversity, Look at all the different kind of fish I have in my Koi pond.

Like I was like, Sonya, no, it's gonna be bad.

The race stuff's gonna get worse and worse, like I'm terrified for what's about to happen.

Yeah, because I was spinning in my body. I also I like the new girl Ebony. There's a new girl in Ebani. I like her, but I did not like her saying I'm old. And then I googled her age and she's thirty seven. I'm like, you're not old like like she was. Actually she was too old to have a kid. I was like, I know, but.

You can you can know that you're young and still feel old, like I know thirty three is not old, but I do feel like, oh no, I feel like that TikTok song, like I don't know. Oh no, I do, I just don't realize it. I still feel like I'm like twenty five. I feel like I'm smarter and lessons, but.

I always feel like I'm thirty.

I mean I kind of like, oh wait, I never remember how old I am, and I'm like, I'm about in my I'm about thirty, I'm in my early thirties, like I always think that.

But alas that ship has sailed.

Oh and also this happens to you all the time food. Whenever we order food, it doesn't come for you. They just forget about you.

We order food and we pick it up and every meal is in there except for my meal. That's what happens. Like the food is there, they made an attempt. But and it always happens when we're going to our friend Lauren's house. Like one time we ordered food, like five of us and just mine was the only meal missing. And like the delivery guy goes, oh yeah, they said they're out of that. No one called us nothing. And then last night it happened and this guy had run

Just forgot my food completely.

And then I had to go pick it up. I was happy to do it. Yes, she was such a good friend. She picked it up for me because I was like, just the idea of waddling back to my car, it's just not happening right now. I can't do it.

I didn't mind any of it.

It was a pleasure, except I did then have to chat with the people because they they were trying to make it up to me, you know, like I care, and they were like, oh my god. And then we had to talk. He started talking about when his mom was pregnant with him. She was in law school. He has two sisters. I mean, I really got to know everyone.

Welcome to my life.

When you physically present as pregnant, people just come up to you and tell you nine antecdotes a.

Day about like, oh my god.

So the woman at CBS was like, you're having a boy, Like we care what you think. But I went to CBS this weekend and I wore a cute dress from I got in Australia, Melbourne, what's up? And she goes, Oh my god, that dress looks so comfortable, and I said thank you, And then I'm like, that's not a fucking compliment, that's the what.

Are you saying to me?

So I'm already having enemies in the neighborhood.

Yeah, the CBS lady.

She was like, she goes, well, I know, amazing people have boys, and you seem like a really amazing person. I'm like, from the two bottles of Adville, I'm buying okay, bitch Like, but also, just before anybody sends me a message to Advil's from my husband.

I know pregnant wmen are not allowed to take Advil disclaimer. It's so crazy you have to do all that. What else is going on?

My daughter continues to be obsessed with Lisa. There was a man coming to do work on my house and his name is Amador, and he was really nice.

In the morning, when.

She woke up, she was like, where's Amador? And I was like, he went home. She goes, he went to house, and I'm like, I don't know what you think Lisa's up to. But apparently lots of local men are stopping in and out.

I love the name Amador. It's like such a good name. I'm obsessed. I keep saying Amador. Roses in bed saying Lisa, and I'm in bed saying Amador to nobody. No, I this is like backwards as a person that does love crime, it is weird. I avoided the movie Zodiac like the Plague. I refuse to watch it for like fifteen years. And I watched it on my flight from New York to LA and it was good.

I liked it.

That's so funny that Delta just keeps Zodiac on like it never gets rotated out, like I watched Zodiac on Delta.

Four years ago.

I mean I watched it when it originally came out, too, but like I rewatched it. That is like I don't really like rewatching movies that much. I don't really watch movies again. Really, yeah, I just don't. I mean, like, if something's on and I've seen it, like with friends, sure, but I'm not like, oh, I'm gonna sit and rewatch a movie that I've already seen when there's so many movies I haven't seen.

I think that's my opposite.

But I heard my niece read me once and she said, people with anxiety like to watch the same things over and over.

Yeah.

I was like, all right, I guess, but no, especially on planes. I watched The Favorite maybe on twelve separate flights. I watched Inger Goes West over and over like two and from places I would be watching Inger and Goes West. Yeah, adult and then clueless is always on Delta flight?

Well also, I can't believe this. I did want to.

Talk about this, but we're already Delta. Miley Cyrus flew Delta this week. I need to know is this for the environment? Did she get paid? Is this a sponsorship? Did she just need a last minute flight? She's worth over one hundred million dollars, you know, she put flies private all the time.

Why is she on that Delta flight to go do SNL because SNL was paying for it? Yeah, but like she could just pay for her jet herself. Yeah, that's weird.

I don't know.

But she was taking selfies in the bathroom and she had like the divider like she was like living it up, like she was taking.

Photos like we would be at the zoo.

She was like, look like she because it's not like and it's not like it's last minute you know, no, it's not last minute.

She was booked like she we knew she was doing SNL forever.

Oh god, elon Musk Anyway, I will say there are certain movies that if I flip by them on TV, I will keep watching them, such as Mean Girls, when Harry met Sally. There's a few that I'm like, oh, I'll just watch this from wherever it is. But Devil War's Prada I'll always watch again. But yeah, like if I'm sitting down to watch a movie, I'm not going to flip a new one an old one on. But Zodiac is a good one. What did you think of it? I liked it.

I mean it is hard to watch now with a different brain where it's like, truly the women are just like wives at home that have maybe four lines, and then there's it's just a bunch of white dudes. It's like you couldn't throw in like one Asian detective. It's just like it's hard to watch. It was it was kind of avang even though I liked it and Jake Jillenhall's hot, I already actually don't remember who the other

It's just so wild that we've not caught him.

I mean, even though the movie makes it seem like it is this one guy, like it's just where. But if you go to our Instagram, I'll put it in the mention at all highlight. We posted another account put up the all the serial killers and what their signs are, and it's so many virgos like Lisa and I are shock a little bit by how many burgos. I think it's just because burgos are very organized. Then that's why they can serial kill, because they don't get caught for a while.

Oh my god.

Speaking of Dexter's coming back, baby, they winked, winked, winked. I can't wait. I saw the little trailer. He looks as hot as ever. I have my Dexter badge hanging signed. I mean, I can't wait to see it. He's an organized killer for sure.

Well, speaking of an organized killer, like but I do complaint, I have one.

I have to.

I have to bring this up. So I'm living across the street from a school, which I like. I like the sounds of recess or like soccer games. It reminds me of life is, you know, simple and great. The school across the street from me, Blair's kids bop NonStop no for recess lunch, and when they come to school it's kids bop so loud. I've been I wake up to kids bop songs.

I think kids bop is like child abuse. I really, I hate it so much. I play the real songs for the kids like you. They don't need to play these water down versions of the songs. Yeah, well said play jazz. But yeah. So let's segue now gracefully into our episode, because this is a really this is oh my god. This episode really like keeps me awake to night. It's so crazy, So let's get into it.

So today we will be doing season thirteen, episode fifteen, called Hunting Ground. Do I keep calling it higher ground like the Stevie Wonder slash RHCP song, Yes I do. I keep looking for my notes and I kept typing in higher Ground and I kept going insane. But it is hunting Ground and we will definitely find out why. So the episode opens up on Harry Connick Junior and Marishka aka Olivia Benson leaving well I guess I used Harry's real name.

Whatever. So Harry and Marishka are leaving a movie theater and it looks like a date and she's.

Wearing a trench peacoat situation with Chloe hair hoops. You know this, this is an upscale, fun look maybe a date. He tries PDA and she's like, please stop, what are you doing? We can't like go public, and he's.

Like, come on public, I want to fuck.

But they decide to keep the pressure off and chill out, and he's like, let's go out to E and she says, no, take out at my place, which obviously means either sex or I don't want to be seen out in public with you.

I think it's a little bit of both, because they just don't want to. They're like, not that far from the squad or something like that. But I also feel like it's really weird to be like, let's just chill a little.

Bit, let's go fuck. It's weird. It's it's a's double messaging to me. Well, yeah, they're just separating work in person. No, No, like you.

Can fucking maybe still be chill. I don't know, I don't know, can you. Yeah, that's that's for a different relationship, different podcasts. Yeah, so behind them, and they don't really do this often, which I really appreciate. But behind them there's like a man walking a dog on a leash and he looks like a nerd, you know, glasses and I forgot who has this joke? But it is like I just can't see when did the stereotype happen that I'm suddenly smart and love computers.

Like I'm just blind, but I can't remember who's show. That's funny.

I know I don't remember, but I'm like, that's such a good point, Like how did we anyone with bad vision?

Is a point? Dexter so goofy.

I kind of don't like it when they do stuff like this, like the like because it implies that New York is like this tiny village where like the cops are on a date and those of serial Killer two blocks like a block them checking the newspaper.

I get that, but that's my face. I loved running into people in New York. Names felt better.

Than like a subway or like you're walking You're like, what up? But you got to keep asuming. I do love that, and I do think in a lot of ways New York is a small city.

It's just weird when it's like the captain of the sexual Crimes Unit is just strolling past a man who's committing a heinous sexual crimes.

It's a little coincidental, but I loved it. I did love it.

And so he's picking up a free newspaper called Downtown. I don't know if you have these in your where you live, but it's like the free paper you take on the train with you. I was on the cover of the Chicago Red Eye once. No big deal, huge deal.

Okay.

We see him with a photo circled and he's calling someone from the back pages and he wants to pay cash because his wife is on him, and he wants to meet at the Starbucks on fourteenth and seventh. And just hearing those streets made me nostalgic for New York because I got off at them.

Trying to say, I'm like, is there a Starbucks at fourteenth?

And I know I did too, because but I always got off at fourteenth and six. But that was the hell Do you remember the Hell the Hell Bridge where it's like you got off the l and then if you wanted to get on the one two three, there's the hell Bridge.

Oh I hate that shit. I don't.

I won't.

I won't even switch underground. I'm like, I'll take it to a different stop. I'll go to like West fourth because you don't have to do that.

Yeah, so I would get off on the FM to go to my you know, my comedy club.

But if you follow the hell Bridge, I'm like, was there a Starbucks or not?

But it did make me nostalgic, But also like this pisses me off because it's like, if it's a new customer, you got to get a card. I mean it works at a hair salon, we wouldn't even make a hair appointment without a credit card. And you're sending a woman to meet a guy with cash from a payphone. You know that you're not taking care of yours.

Yeah, not exactly a vetting process.

There's no Starbucks, Google street View, no Starbucks. Just so you know, we see a young blonde and she's holding a baby. She's answering the call to meet this guy, and the mom's like, what the fuck what do you doing?

Blah blah blah what if I had plans?

And it's like, you're the mom of a teen mom, do your job, maybe sit this kid. But the girl says she can't turn down catering work. The mom's like, who is doing catering this late? It's nine o'clock and she says, rich people, which is my answer.

It's a great answer, And like, would you love to be rich for like it's eight fifteen and you're like, you know what, call the catering people.

Let's just have a catered party right now. I would.

But if I if we're that level of wealth, I'd rather call a Michelin star restaurant, say get a private room ready for me.

Yeah, but what if you don't want to leave your house? What if you're huge? You get recognized. It's like annoying.

Yeah, okay, either ray is good.

I just like I just want to go to laberna den in a private room. So cut to she's out to dinner with this nerd and she's only eating a salad. So he's pissed and he's in and this is also foreshadowing, but he says, you'll need meat on your bones for the winter, and she smiles says something dumb. You know, she's flirting, So they're having like a weird flirt situation and then he asks the waiter to wrap this up for my dog please. And he's not rude, but I

Yeah.

So they're walking to the car after dinner and he opens the car and there's a dog in the back seat with a cage type like screen like a cabin. It's a cage, and the dog is cute. They have some banter. She's not loving it. Her instincts are saying this is strange, do not go. But he's like, listen, the dog's good. Just get in the car. And she smiles and she's super cute and sweet, and she gets in the car. Cut back to Harry and Marishkaus day and she looks very pretty eyeliner, and he's wooing her.

They make out, so that's.

Exciting, and he does say to her like, I don't know what you've been through, but I'm here baby, So.

I mean you've cut me off and saying that I minimize the coreese rollins sexual attention. I have to cut you off. But this was really sexy and hot. I thought I thought they were being really hot together, and I think you need to give it a little bit more attention.

He does nothing for me.

Look, he's actually not really for me either, but I do think they have chemistry.

He doesn't really.

I'm not like Harry gone to Junior, Oh my god, like like the way I think her husband's way hotter Peter Herman.

But like, I don't know. I did think it was really hot.

Yeah, I'm more of a castady person, even though he's toxic but and try to ruin her life and get her child taken away from her. But I, yeah, Harry does nothing. You're right to cut me off. I feel nothing for these people.

We're just exhibiting our preferences. I think, go on, Yeah, you like a guy who can play the piano.

Well, no, it's not even not. I don't even love him. I just feel like you never see Benson makeout with anybody. You never really see Benson having any hot times, and like she seems really into him. I never saw that kind of like sort of like maybe because she's older. But with Bart Bass's dad, what's his name, Tucker Tucker? Yeah, who's Bart Bass? Chuck Bass's dad, Bart Bass. That's who he plays in Gossip Girls. Okay, I don't watch guy.

And he was in one episode of that right too.

Too, because he fucks her when she's pregnant, and just then he comes back to town and she's like, I have a baby. He's like, oh mine, and she's like, nah, man, let's fuck. But the baby keeps interrupting and she has to learn a lesson about loving her baby or something. So so they're having their day, they're making out and then uh oh they cut and the dog is sitting in the front seat like proud as fuck, and then the cutie is tied wrists in the back seat cage area and uh, not good.

And she looks really really scared. Yeah, and she starts begging to be let out.

You don't have to pay me, and it's like we're past that, girl, But I'll do whatever you want.

Please.

I don't want to die, and he responds, that's up to you, isn't it, And they zoom in on his glasses and we get to the credits.

So this is like a jam packed intro.

I feel for like, we have love and fear, we have all the emissions. So Benson wakes up in Harry's arms to her phone ringing like the show never lets Benson have too much fun. Yeah, like you could have a night of sex, but you're not getting breakfast. That's like they never write, they never let her have too much fun. So she's she's got to go. It seems like it was good sex. She's wearing his shirt, but

We're gonna do more, We're coming up. I think Tomorrow's hot as hell.

He is so hot, and I think he's just such I don't love his character.

That's the problem, the way he talks to his wife. No, but her I have opinions and we get to those.

But yeah, but I but physically, I mean he's in like a new show called Mayans on FX where he's like a motorcycle guy. I think it's kind of it's a it's a spin off of Sons of Anarchy.

Yeah, we're so focused on like Stabler's ass and Carreese's sensitivity that we forget Tomorrow's just stone cold hotness.

Yes, because you know he shoots people that.

Are unarmed, so we we don't love him.

Did he ever cheat? I don't think he cheated.

Though, but okay, whatever she cheated, he did, No, she did, she cheated.

She also, I've seen him in person. He is exceptionally hotter in person. I bet, I bet he's a babe.

You know who was so hot that I saw in person and like I was in it. I escorted him when he was on Conan, so we were actually speaking to each other on an elevator. Jake Jillenhall not that to me cute on screen in person, like melt your face hot.

But that's it makes sense so that someone I saw that, you're like, of course pretty. But when I saw kristin Wig in person, I'm like, oh, no one is more beautiful than you. Really dropped at gorgeous and she was talking to the tall stars guard.

Oh and I try.

I mean I was staring but trying not to stare the whole time.

But like I when you.

See famous people like that up close, you're like, oh, you're the hottest person alive. Okay, like it's you're obviously she's so talented too, but it was like, oh my god. Yeah, I asked, like, whenever I've talked to famous people, I'm like, that are comedians, so like there's whatever. When I talk to friends who have become famous, I'm always like, what famous person is the hottest person you've ever seen?

Like give me the scoop.

And the answers I've gotten consistently are Charlie's Throne and Jessica Biel.

Interesting.

Yeah, Also, Jennifer Aniston was one of the most beautiful people up close, but.

That's obvious from anywhere. I don't know.

I kind of think she's a little bit plain looking, but in person, her eyes like sparkle.

No, to me, she is the number one girl like Jack's and vander Pump like he's the number one guy.

Like to me, jen girl Hollywood.

Yes, outside of Britney spears in her prime, but that's like, no, Jen Aniston is everything to me. I just think she is the number one. She's not even a movie star like that's but she is. But she is everything. I'll buy smart water.

I don't care.

I have a vino in my tub right now, like so do I. I'll do whatever she says. I've bought her her living proof hair care is too expensive, though.

They might sponsor us. Cut this all right, go to go back to the episode.

Okay, whatever, So we meet tomorrow and he's like, wow, you look happy, and so he knows she got late, and but then unfortunately a teen mom is missing, so they can't like get the low down on the fucking The daughter's been missing for two days. And the mom plays a voicemail from the missing teen and you know it's just sad, but it's the voicemail is mom, I'm sorry. I'm a bad girl. I go out with Suddenly there's screams. But I have sex with men for money. I want

Roland's cool.

And the last ping on her cell phone was a bridge to Pansy Bridge to Palsy.

Tap and Z? Where is that the tap and Z?

I think is up to get to like upstate New York, like Hudson River Valley.

Okay, yeah, so that.

Was the last ping off the bridge and then they're like the phone was probably thrown off into the river. The last call she got was the caterer lol g NS Services LLC. Important fact, remember that forever. So there's a sweet moment. I really love this Craigan. I still like sometimes I forget and then I see him on screen and then I remember that we met.

Him through the computer.

But it is like, but he's really sweet with Rowlins and they have a moment like how'd you make it past super Bowl?

Oh yeah? And gambling stuff.

Yeah, So I like that he checked in on her and she said she went to three meetings standing room only. And this was actually a nice insightful moment for myself, Like I don't think about gambling a d often and the things that might be triggers.

So I just like another.

Yeah from a super Bowl weekend means like dips, you know, and for other people it's like a hard thing to get through it.

Yeah, our last suit no during yeah, the super Bowl party before pandemic.

Karen and I had a great time. I let my daughter try McDonald's French fries for the first time.

So Finn is at the brothel escort service type place and the woman that enters she has a sleek ponytail gold jewelry.

And she immediately is like, this is a legit business.

Nothing funny, which stops saying if you're a shady business, do not say you're a legitimate business, because it's the number, Like if you were a legitimate business, you would never have to say that.

So it's always like.

Mistake number one. But the woman says, listen, we're a matchmaking service. If she did anything more, that's on her rollins is like, we don't care. There's a girl she's missing and she's sixteen, so go fuck yourself. And immediately she doesn't want to get trouble for working with a sixteen year old girl, so she sits down and is going to cooperate fully, give them all the scoop.

She says, you know, first time caller.

They went out to dinner and met at Starbucks, like we said, but he insisted on paying cash.

That's when you hang up. Yeah, the name was Brewster, just.

One name, so they didn't even get meaning a last name, Like it's not that he couldn't have just said Brewster Smith and which is you know, bullshit. But still it's like you're not you don't even give a fuck what happens to these girls?

No, and to not get a credit card is shocking because if you need to say, well hold it, you can pay cash, We're going to hold your credit card in case you fucking don't pay, or with someone like this who does want to commit crimes. Again, we don't want to give advice to criminals, but buy one of those visa gift cards that.

Are two hundred and fifty five hundred dollars and then you can use those and you're.

Associated of sexual predators.

But it's very upsetting.

So the woman in charge says that Hayley came to her company because her previous employer or pimp, I don't really know, but a girl went missing on Christmas.

And was never found and that freaks her out.

So she came here and phyl and Ro's Finn and Rollins go to that previous employer and he's a scuzzy looking guy. You know, he needs a haircut. He's got glasses too. But you don't think he's smart, No, you don't. You certainly don't.

Even though aren't there signs on the wall.

They are like sat Prep like it's weirdly like they're trying to act like they're selling sat Prep, but it's really sex work it's just.

Yeah, because if you're wearing like a baggy polo with designs on.

It, it's not SAT. Baby. I'm not coming to you to get my scores up.

And he said that she was terrible, and then he goes, don't hire someone with a baby, which you.

Know, I laughed, but but hire Kara with the baby. Hire me. I mean, I'm, I got it, I'm And.

He goes, technically she's an SAT tutor, and they're like, we're not fucking with you, and we're gonna stick everyone we want on you, like, fucking help.

Us figure this out.

So basically, the girl that went missing around the holidays, her name was Roxy again back Pages and nope, no credit card, cash only brewster. So we have a connection and this is a serial. So we're back at the precinct and everyone's giving their opinions. We're having a little hangout session. We got the whole gang. We got Rollins who's like he's a psychopath, we got Munch going listen.

Mean rip that he was right. The village Voice shut down.

Yeah, and then Benson is like, they're facilitating human trafficking. They're the worst. And tomorrow I don't remember what he says. Okay, there's just a lot of stuff. So they're all chatting. Cragan like the dad is is like, chill out, everyone, relax, you go here, you go there, do everything.

So Rollinson Phil keep calling Finn Phil. I know.

Rollins and Finn go to other agencies that advertise on the back pages to get information, and Benson and Tomarrow hit up the restaurants around Starbucks to see where they went on a date. And we meet a classic SVU character, a bartender that remembers everything. They were at table three.

We know there was a dog. Yeah, well yeah, we've seen we've seen the dog. Yeah, but they seem like they know, like the doggie bag gives them information. We're looking for a guy with a dog. I guess.

Also, I guess sexual predators psychopaths don't tip.

Well, no, that makes sense because you don't care about it, don't care about other people. Yeah, ten not okay, well no.

When I worked at places or even at comedy clubs with the staff there, I'd always ask the pregnant employees, like, you're getting more tips, and they said no really, which is crazy to me. If I saw if a pregnant woman is serving me, that I'm tipping more.

Yeah, I should have gotten away. It's hard to work. I should have gone a serving job during this pandemic.

Yeah, that's a great idea. So we cut to fucking scariness, Like probably our worst nightmare is people on this planet.

Really is so scary. I know we say this all the time.

I know we say the haunting thing all the time, and you guys are coming for us and being funny about it online, and we do say it. This is one of my top five episodes that like, oh my god, scares the absolute fuck out of me. When I think about it, I remember watching this and going this is even too much for SVU, Like chasing someone through a fucking wooded area, hunting them. Yeah, I'm like, I just want I can't r Yeah, well, get ready.

So we cut to like so the dog is barking and running, the man is holding a gun running through the woods, and then our blonde girl is running with wounds and she looks tight, I mean, she looks worn out and it's just really scary. And the dog is a fucking narc and leads the man to the girls.

And then there's like.

A red laser next to Haley that's like the same kind of laser you would use to distract a cat, and it narrowly misses her arm, and then she keeps on running and then we leave and we're.

Like what the fuck, Like this is too much.

So we get scoop from one of the other agencies that a sex worker thought that he was a creep and didn't get into the car and that she ran away. So they find out that there was a woman who went on a date with him, you know, for money and everything, and then she got bad vibes and was creeped out and she didn't get in the car. So they have to find this woman to get information from her. But then Benson and Munch are like, let's go to the Village Voice and see if he can of us

I know you don't remember.

He's also from Rounders, which is one of my favorite movies ever. I had a big Edward Norton face for a big part of my youth. But he was at one of the poker tables, so he's one of the friends, so I was really happy to see him. He has sixty six credits on IMDb. Is he's busy. He obviously is not sharing sources. Obviously this was a waste of guess, honestly, Like, there's no way a guy in journalism is sharing.

Sources or a thing or anything.

And he thinks this is just payback against the paper for being anti cop and Marishka is like nah, bro, like you're on the wrong side here, and there's a girl missing and this isn't payback.

We don't care what you say about us.

So Robin's in Tomorrow knock on a woman's door, who is the score that like was scared of Brewster and left, But immediately there's like a husband behind and you could tell he's controlling. He has the vibe of Justin Timberlake in the movie Black Snake.

M mop completely.

Yes, I didn't think it, but when you said it, I'm like, I know exactly where this is going.

Yeah, Anna Marine Tattoo.

You could tell he's kind of controlling, like the way he comes at her.

I don't really love that energy.

That's not for me, but they sort of do that to show that Tomorrow like knows how to talk to military guys.

Yeah, and then the girl did a great job acting where it's like she can't talk in front of him. They need to get her fucking story, and so they come up with a cover story that there's a groper in the neighborhood and they need them to id some people, and Marrow leans in like you're the Marines. My wife's there, I'm this, we need your high. If anyone's gonna know something shady, it's a marine and it just proves how dumb marines are. I mean, I don't know, like he

She goes, you know how to Laura Cop love that. I meanwhile, I've like never seen Benson need a donut on the show. No one actually.

Maybe fit they have them in the background, but like I've never seen Benson just like chowing down on a blaze.

You know what.

Other episode remember where they're all like having to testify and the episode is like a yeah episode.

Where they're in that back room.

I feel like there might be storyline there with the with the bailiff write in and let us know what we're missing.

Yeah, the bailiff is like, I take one of these to my wife.

I actually love donuts. No, I love donuts too.

I'm just saying it's funny, like cop stereotype, and yet we never see these cops really eating donuts.

Yeah, I really like donuts. I don't think they.

Get enough credit. I mean, and you just moved to Los Angeles. There's a donut shop. I mean, there's a don't shop every two feet here. I know, but I just feel everyone's.

Like cupcake, cupcake, cupcake, and.

It's like, donuts are better. I love donuts. I'm glad.

Okay, So the Village Voice puts out an article about how the girls are working alone and not with pimps, and basically it's saying, if there aren't pimps, then the Voice can't be an accessory. I don't really understand this at all, but okay, but Benson really believes they're facilitating underage sex trafficking. The paper hasn't broken laws, but she's like, we know what's going on.

We all know. I just can't.

But Harry Connick Junior is saying, I can't get involved with any of your cases because I want our relationship to work, and that's not going to be. Okay, And they kiss at the donut shop. I did write, oh my god, they kiss in the donut shop in all caps.

So it's not like I fully don't care, but okay, all right, I'll accept that.

Benson gets a text. Obviously it's not fun. It's the missing girl's mother. So Benson has to go straight to work. So they're back at the precinct with the girl who got away, and she's just like, I just didn't like the vibe. The dog was in the back, I saw shovels and I was like no, And he wanted to take her to a beach thirty minutes away and just drive. And she said she was sick and ran away. And this is what we always talk about, like follow your

God, men just don't tend to have the same feelers for it. They just like don't They're like, yeah, it was just a guy with a shovel burying another dog. And girls are like that man is creepy times a thousand.

Yeah.

I watched some really bad crime doc on Netflix and this hotel owner who housed this guy was like, yeah, he seems so chill. And then they showed his photo and I'm like.

This is the creepy I've ever seen the picture to me, how creepy?

Yeah, still photo.

So they head to the beach with all these German shepherd working dogs and they find so many bodies, like it is so oh god, Like Benson says, they need backup, and it's kind of like the moment in the craft where all the whales come up on shore. They zoom it on Benson's face looking horrified, and then they pan out and it's just like holy shit, there's like it's just.

Body because it's all the German shepherds sitting still where they find the because that's what the dogs do.

Like I think people think.

That dogs, like drug dogs or whatever, will come up to you and be like r fro you have pot or whatever. No, they come up to you and they sit in front of you quietly. So that's like what happens. These dogs are like, we found what we were looking for, and they just sit in front of these like graves.

So it's creepy, it's very like eerie.

And then it's like you, when do you find the time to bury these bodies when no one is out, like there's no teens fucking on the beach, Like, I just don't understand how he has gotten away with it, and I really don't like this moment. Melinda is on the scene giving all the scoop and she says, this used to be a horse burial ground, but they found seven bodies as of now. The freshest body they found has been thirty days and the dogs wouldn't have missed Haley.

I don't know he.

Now it's very high profile, Okay, now he has to get involved. I mean, it's like, seven bodies on the beach, that's a.

Lot, Okay. Marishka has a belt over her coat. Do people do this? It seemed like of the time. I just can't imagine wanting. I remember though, when.

The trench coats kind of came back and everyone was belting them. I had a belted coat. Actually when I lived in Italy. Yeah it's cold. Who care, I just I don't know. I'm not into winterwear. But she had a belted coat.

So amorrow is in the bunk bedroom, face facetiming his wife, Laura Benatti, and they have a very uncomfortable conversation about Candy Corn. I don't know what connected these two. They have absolutely no chemistry, no love. No, this is a dead marriage. I don't know like it is.

And then he yells at her and she's like, I'm sorry to call you.

I'm at war. And he's like, I'm worried sick. And she's like, you're worried sick. And I'm like, just end this.

I like fucking she used some love in my neighborhood in New York, and I've seen her in person.

She's very beautiful and very talented. She is she's a Broadway baby. Yeah, I hate the married married.

You're right, Nope, you're right. Okay.

So all the women that are found have no ideas, and they were all exphyxiated, and they all had ketamine in their talk screen. And they find one cadaver that had veneers and we I didn't mention this, but earlier, the scuzzy guy in the polo shirt that was the sat tutor slash pimp. He was saying that he bought roxy veneers and then she disappeared and he was pissed because he invested ten grand into her veneers. But the veneers were dirty as hell and so like, that's not

So that's really exciting.

So the tick DNA takes us to Ulster County in the Catskills, and there's a super cool doctor there who loves ticks, and she kind of has the same haircut as me. I do have a fresh haircut, and me and her had the same vibe, and she remembers someone on k coming in to the hospital pretty roughed up. They treated her, but she couldn't remember anything. And I guess that's what special k does. It fucks with your memory and it's a trink.

And she kept.

Saying, Brewster, Brewster, Brewster. So obviously they need to find this girl. And the doctor says, listen, I took her to the psych ward.

She might still be there. She is.

She's a super super sad teen. She's in the psych unit at the library. There's a chess set on the table and she just keeps saying, nobody believe me. Nobody believed me. And she was actually in another SVU episode that is a favorite amongst the listeners, PC with Kathy Griffin. Yeah, she played the character Mina, but I don't remember who, but she is an sv comeback. She has a giant scar on her neck that looks so fucked up the makeup department, like really went in there. She said she

He brings them back to.

His shack and then rapes them, and then the game keeps starting over and over again, and so Benson asks he hunted you and ugh, and so then they also need to know how she escaped. So there was an electric fence and so it was raining one day and she decided, oh, I'm just going to touch the fence and die with electric currents. But the power was out and so she didn't get electrocuted to death, which I

Oh my god.

She also gives us other information about how like she would sometimes hide under the shack, there was like a crawl space but he would always know that she was in there and would clean his gun and talk to the dog and say everything he was going to do to her.

So that was fucked up.

And then but Benson is like, don't worry, girl, we're going to get you home, and she goes, I don't want to go home.

I'm safe here.

He can't get me and if anyone cared about me, they would have found me already.

So soul crushing. Yikes.

There's another hangout in the precinct. They're trying to figure out what they're going to do. There's a wildlife preserve that's close to the beach and to Pansy Bridge and the Tapencie Tapenzie. I'm gonna name my future pet Tapanzi.

So Hudson you. Of course they're behind fucking everything. They New York University just own a preserve in the cat Skills. It's like too fucking much.

So they own the preserve and they're like, should we get the State police or FBI involved in Craigan's.

Like, ough, the State Police, get the FBI out of here. So I like that a little bit.

So Amaro calls Hudson you, and there's one Hudson you employee named Graham Winger and he's the gamekeeper there. He's thirty nine and Brewster is an alias. So Phil, I'm loving you calling Finn Phil all day. It's really making me laugh.

Sorry.

So Finn and Rollins are and I love their dynamic. But they are at Graham Winger's apartment in Manhattan Beach and they're looking through shit and they find darts, they find drug books, lots of evidence, and he logged his kills, all the stats how long they survived, like a murder journal. And then it's so they're getting ready to like attack the woods and like find everyone. And the main cop is giving all the cop finders directions and he goes, if you get lost, use your GPS if you need that.

Note. I don't think you shouldn't be a cop, no, I mean I would know that. So they're hitting the woods.

The dog senses something, the birds fly, I mean, everything's going down, and they find the shack. They find the car with the shovel of the mbstick or everything, and Marishka has a midhead ponytail and she's pulling it off.

I like when she has that little ponytail. I like that look on her.

And they finally find Hayley. She is like freezing on a cot.

She's in jeans, dirty, and she looks like blue like she has like her skin is like light blue, like it looks it's bad.

It's bad. Yeah, they found her right on time.

Amaro leaves to check the perimeter and Benson's chatting with her and says, I know your drugs.

Squeeze my hand if you understand.

She squeezes her hand, and then Brewster enters the shack, no glasses on.

Is he wearing contacts when he hunts? I don't get it. Know that seems like that's when you would need your eyesight the most. Yeah, and he's armed and dangerous.

He is super rude, points gun at Benson and he's like, I'm gonna make you play the game. I'm gonna hunt your dumb mass and so the dog barks because he senses tomorrow. But Brewster doesn't see tomorrow. So that's great news, and surprise, surprise. He's an inceelm. I you know, whenever we try to like figure out serial killers in their minds and what's up their inceells. Okay, they feel entitled to women and their bodies and when they don't get it.

God, I can't even think about it. Yeah, stops asking us to do that episode. We're too scared. We don't want to watch it.

Maybe here three Okay, yeah, we all want to fuck Pablo Schreiber. We don't want to rewatch the episode. But I'm thinking of another hostage moment, like she's usually un control, but we could tell she's kind of scared. And then amorro under the floorboards walaying down, shoots him twice and murders that motherfucker.

It's a cool shot because you're like, where did the bullet come from? And then it's like Amara was under the fucking shack, like it it's a cool shot.

Yeah, he saves the day. I'm so happy.

And then finn Is like, wow, nurses birds, but hunts women. Okay, thanks, Haley's in the ic. You She's gonna make it. Cragan sends Tomorrow home even though it is a good shot, they have to review it and they have to figure it out, and Benson says, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for him. It is his first kill, so he's having like a moment, and then he realizes he should call his wife, who has to kill people all the.

Time maybe or something like that.

And they actually have like a nice conversation in you know, the bunk bedroom that they have, and she's pumped that you know, he got him. And my last note is why did they get married? So that is a hunting ground ladies and gentlemen, and sadly it's Kara's turn.

Yeah, get ready because it's not getting any.

Better from here.

Okay, let's get into the real crime that spond that horrible episode that truly haunts my dreams. So first I want to do a really quick check in about the whole back Pages because the way that this episode ends, that ha econnig Junior's character is like I'm going to take on the back pages. I'm going to show and what eventually happened is backpage did get shut down and that was not good for sex workers.

Actually, now I follow a.

Lot of porn stars and I remember Twitter was like pissed.

Yeah, So we actually had a very interesting conversation with someone that I had met previously at a comedy show. Actually, but is a She is a feminist studies scholar who writes about labor, sexuality, and social struggle. She teaches Women, Gender and Sexuality studies at Washington University in Saint Louis, an excellent school, and she has a book called Porn Work Out. Her name is doctor Heather Berg. She gave

So basically these backpages.

I know that people think that this contributes to trafficking, but if you look at the statistics, it really doesn't.

The way that they work is that.

Sex workers can on their own post free or cheaply adds for their services and there's no middleman. There's nobody taking a cut, there's nobody threatening them or anything like that, and their email is protected. They can screen for safety, they can run the client's name through sex worker blacklists,

And what Heather said that I didn't know is most human trafficking is other parts of labor. It's most like agriculture and like housework.

I don't know how to say it.

It's like, yeah, it's agriculture, food service. A lot of that is a lot of like the force labor that you think of.

And then she said, a lot of sex trafficking and human and that capacity is done often by people that you know, it's uncles, fathers, and so they're like conflating this issue instead of actually helping sex workers.

Yeah, and I mean, I've been listening to a lot of podcasts about this because I'm really trying to get educated on the whole human trafficking and sex trafficking thing. And like the numbers of underage people being sex trafficked are like minuscule, Like it's really like sex trafficking does happen, but it's really not. It's not like kids getting snatched off the street and forced into sex labor. And I'm not saying that never happens, but it is not the

So it actually helps sex workers stay safer, yeah, right, and so have to work with other.

People, right.

And also, if it's out there, it's monitored, If you're if it's out there, you can see this one agency is using sex workers that are under eighteen, or they are abusing their their workers. You know, like when everything goes underground, it's just so much harder for anyone to get fair treatment.

And it's just like it's frustrating because it's all false, like you're saying you care about these people, and then when you have someone like Matt Gates or Jeffrey Epstein or people that are actually doing these crimes, suddenly you're all fucking silent about it. So that's another level that pisses me off. It's like you're pretending you care about these people and then when issues happen, nothing crickets.

Right. So this is a much longer conversation, but we do have to get into today's crime. So yeah, we will share some more info with you during Sister Peg. Now, this episode Hunting Ground, some resources are saying that it's based on the Long Island Killer. That is like finding all those bodies on the beach is reminiscent of the Long Island Killer, who still has not been captured and is a very fascinating case. But I believe there are other svus that focus on that, and we'll hit that later.

He takes up hunting and archery for fun.

So you know, hunting and archer, I guess sounds kind of wholesome, unless you're a serial killer to be, and then it's a lot more of a red flag.

In hunting's not wholesome.

No, I hate hunting, but there's people that you listen to that are like it's part of the circle of life.

And it's like it's sport.

I mean, I have a friend whose husband hunts all the time and I have to like hide him on face book because it's always just him with like an innocent deer head, and I like can't stand it. But like, you know, it is an American pastime, not wholesome. It's not wholesome. Sorry, I stand correct. I'm just saying you can't say all hunters are going to be serial killers.

No, but they're not wholesome. Killing a rabbit's not wholesome. Yeah, it's just the wrong word.

If you eat it.

Uh oh, it's still not wholesome. Eating meat isn't wholesome.

Okay.

That word means like all good, like a daisy. Oh, daisy is how wholesome flower?

You know? I don't know, maybe I don't know the word, but it seems like baking a pie or playing scrabble with your kids that seems wholesome.

It says conducive to or suggestive of good health and physical well being.

So, yeah, you're killing an animal.

I guess it's not I yeah, but you are providing food for I don't know anyway, Sorry I said that word.

Let's cut all of this.

So in nineteen fifty seven he married a younger woman. I mean, he was like eighteen and fifty seven, so don't how much younger she could have been or no, And then in nineteen sixty he burnt down the school bus garage as revenge for being bullied in high school.

And it's like, guess what, your high school bullies don't give a fuck that you burned down the school bus garage, Like no one cares.

I mean, I'm sure you know who cares is like the poor kids that have to get to school and like don't have a bus anymore. I don't really think that the old people are like, well, we should have been nicer to Robert anyway. He served twenty months of a three year sentence for that, and while in prison, he was diagnosed by polar and his wife filed for divorce. So now cuts in nineteen sixty seven, he's twenty eight years old. He's moved to Anchorage, Alaska. He's got a

In the community. It's crazy. His whole issue is like, I can't get chicks. Now he's on a second wife. I know what is the problem.

It's too late though by then it's like you hate women. And also we'll get into it later. But this is like about and we know men like this. This is about the there are some good women, and there are, but there are a lot of bad women, Like there are good and bad women, like there are women whose lives don't mean anything, and there are women that are like pure and wholesome.

Who are the people we know?

We know people who have Madonna and horror complexes for sure. We can talk about it off Mike.

Name name, name name. This is a cancelation podcast now, all right.

So he was well liked, He had hunt he had records for hunting, like, he had a successful business as a baker. Okay, In nineteen seventy one, around when he was thirty two years old, he was arrested two times. Once was for the abduction and rape of a housewife, and then the second time was for the rape.

Of a sex worker.

So this man not only has arson in his past, cruelty to animals, and now two crimes against women. By nineteen seventy one, he pleaded no contest to assault with a deadly weapon in the housewife case, and then the rape charge involving the sex worker was dropped as part of a.

Plea bargain, which is insane.

He got five years in prison, and after serving six months, he was placed on a work release program and released to a halfway house.

Like what the fuck, Well, this is just the answer when guys or anyone who's like, why doesn't she.

Go to the cops?

Go to the cops? Why don't you go to the cops? And it's like, go fuck yourself.

Yeah.

So in nineteen seventy six, he pleaded guilty to larseny when he was caught she stealing a chainsaw from a store, and he was sentenced to five years in prison and required to receive psychiatric treatment for his bipolar disorder. But the Alaskan Supreme Court reduced his sentence and he was released with time served, and three out of his four murders happened in those five years that he should have been in jail. So three of the four murders he was convicted for. Excuse me, he has many more. I

You know who else has kids?

Everybody? Yeah, having kids does not make you a good or bad or better or worse person. You are still the same, right.

It's believed that he started killing in nineteen seventy two, so he would have been around thirty three when he started killing. He would pick up sex workers in his car and or like lure them in with money and then force them at gunpoint to his cabin where he would then rape them, and then he would fly them to a secluded area and hunt them. He had a two person plane. He had a little like two person prop plane, which I bet is like common in Alaska.

It's like Aliyah had to die, but not this guy. Why was crashing you are?

I know.

That is a crazy way to look at it. Yeah. Yeah.

And then he would hunt them as if they were wild game before shooting or stabbing them. So he is known to have raped and assaulted over thirty Alaskan women and to have murdered at least seventeen between the ages of sixteen and forty one. So a little bit of a timeline. In nineteen eighty, the first bodies are found. There's a woman is found. She still has not been identified. She was found by Ekluttna Road. I'm sorry if I'm saying that wrong. And she was dubbed ek Lutna Annie

It's crazy.

And then later that year the body of Joanna Messina was discovered, and then in nineteen eighty two, twenty three year old Sherry Moro was discovered in a shallow grave near the Nick River. And then in nineteen eighty three, Paula Golding is found in a shallow grave on the bank of the Nick River. Now, these are the four cases that he gets convicted of that I just read. There are many more victims, but these are the four

Sex worker, blah blah blah.

While he's loading like a gun into the plane's cockpit and doing all like his business to get the plane ready, she sees her moment she's handcuffed in the back of the car. She runs out of the car. She runs onto sixth Avenue, which is like a pretty busy street, gets a truck to pick her up. She specifically said she left her blue sneakers behind in the car as proof that she was there.

They do this in SVU a lot. I'm always like very.

Impressed that victims have like the wherewithal to like leave earbuds or like leave you know, something that is there is behind so that it shows that they were there. So she manages to flag down this truck. He drives her to this inn. The inn is so close to the airport. I mapped all of this to get an idea of it. It's like right across the street from the airport. And she takes a cab to the Big

Then they find her at the second inn. She's still in handcuffs.

She's like hysterical, she's uh, tells them everything that happen. I watched a full FBI Files episode on this, which is like investigation discoverage's very cheesy reenactments and stuff like forensic bals.

And she was very credible according to all.

Of the like the guys, like she had every detail, she knew exactly what happened. She could describe things like she was a very credible witness and like the story was too insane to be made up. On her way to the station, they're taking her to the station, she goes, pull into the airport.

I want to show you the plane. So they go in. She sees the plane.

A security guy walks up and goes, oh, yeah, the guy who owns this plane like just left, and the security guard had out like a license plate number on him, Like had noticed the license plate, I guess. So they positively ideed that it's Robert Hanson's car. They get the address from the license plate. They go to his house. He fits the description exactly of who she said held her captive and assaulted her. His home is exactly as

So it's like such a fuck situation.

Ironically, the cops didn't believe her, or there just wasn't enough evidence to prosecute, you know, I.

Think, yeah, I think there probably wasn't enough evidence to get him as because to me.

It's like, how else do you describe this woman's shoeless, handcuffed, running like what are you talking?

No, exactly exactly, And luckily there were some good cops here. So ironically there was a cop who listened to her would not drop the case because she just thought her story was too detailed. His name was Officer Baker, which is creepy because he's actually looking for a Baker. He knew something was off about Hanson, so he kind of was working on the case even though it had been suspended.

He's kind of working like.

You know, he's sort of breaking the rules a little bit here, and he keeps looking into things. He gathers everything up and he gives it to the State Troopers because I guess they have probably more resources and they knew that they had a mass murder on their hands and that they were like the Alaskan State Troopers were like not equipped to handle that. So the detective Glenn Foth of the Alaska State Troopers contacts the FBI to

Women that started in nineteen seventy one.

He said his earliest victims were women usually between sixteen and nineteen, and not sex workers, so like most of the women that they discovered of the bodies were sex workers. But and at the beginning, he also would just pick up women and sort of take them places, and I think just get sexual services from them, but I think he was working his way up to being able to

The judge who saw his case in.

Nineteen eighty four, when he was finally by before a judge, said, I cannot think of a bigger indictment of society than we have here. This gentleman here has been known to us for several years, and we have turned him loose several times.

He said.

The defendant manipulated the system, lied to psychiatrists, lawyers, and probation workers, and counted on his image as a respected business person to protect him from charges brought over the years by sex workers who accused him of rape. He said, before you, this is what the judge said before you. Sits a monster, an extreme aberration of a human being who has walked among us. Not even his wife of twenty years had any inkling of his dark evil side.

With no publicity for the trial. They had to agree that there would be no publicity for the trial. Is nuts. When do criminals get to decide that? But if he pleaded guilty, what trial, I don't know. Some deal of there was like a deal of him not but they have.

The thing that's wild is they had all the cards why is he still making the rules.

I'm very confused by this deal. Like they also part of the deal was that his family be left alone.

It's like crazy, Like I do not understand how this motherfucker's still cutting deals.

But he gave them all this information about the other bodies, and it's like, well.

Don't those families want like closure and like have that on his record. I mean, he ends up getting a I'll get to it, but he gets a huge sentence. So he also was part of his plea deal was that he had to decipher the map for the authorities, and he confirmed the police theory of how the women were abducted, adding that he would sometimes let a potential victim go if she convinced him that she would not report him to the police. Yeah, he said he began

I wonder why. I don't know.

The remains of twelve victims were exhumed by the police and return to their families. DA Victor Crumb said, mister Hanson told police he had suffered a quote feeling of rejection by women since he was a youth in Iowa. He nevertheless liked and respected women who he felt, in his mind were good. So it's like you get to decide who are good women and who are bad women.

In nineteen eighty four, he was sentenced to.

By a jury to four hundred and sixty one years plus life in prison without the possibility of pearl.

So four hundred and sixty one years, he's never getting out.

And then he did die in prison at the age of seventy five and twenty fourteen. And ironically they did bring him back to a jail in Alaska, so he didn't get that part of his deal that he wanted. And yes, before you all write us Instagram messages, Criminal Minds has also covered this case. Yes, as well as SVU and so his discovery ID and Oxygen. This is a very well known case.

I didn't know anything about it. Yeah, and I'm I'm mad.

Yeah, I mean it's like it's I watched the FBI Files thing. It was like Sherry Moral, one of his victims, was like he contacted her through something saying he was a photographer and she was an aspiring model and he just wanted she just wanted some photos taken, and he would like make her meet him some more public and then pick her up and then.

Just hunt them.

Like I mean, the reenactments were like silly, but like what they did in SVU, I thought, we was really scary.

N we have been falling, Like how long he hunted them, like the ketamine part or anything like that.

I don't think the ketamine part was I think that was added from the SCU episode.

He just shot her, stabbed them.

The fact that but he did not get years and years in prison from his first two assault charges and rapes is like.

It's mind boggling. How many dozens of women had to die, yeah, saying scary tragic deaths.

Well, and you see in our system people that have petty crimes, they follow them forever, people of color, but like these white men can have like horrible like a full ascension to serial killerhood and no one stops it.

You know, so kind of.

A fucked up episode, but I hope you guys sort of enjoyed hearing about it.

I don't know.

Let's let's get to our interview all right, Time for our guest of the week. We're so excited to talk to this actress, songwriter, podcaster, truly a triple threat. She has a new music album that just came out called The Supporting Character. She has her own podcast called My Caffeine Withdrawal, available anywhere you get podcasts. And you also may know her from a little show called The Walking Dead on AMC where she played Beth Green. Guys, check

Yeah, it was very creepy, particularly like the day something about like running around in the woods. Yeah, I think that's I think they only get like one shot of like it's not a big deal in the TV show, but it was a whole day just because you had to like be on a different location and stuff and something about like getting all like bruised up and like running through the forest where it's like this game of him hunting.

Us or whatever.

Like I remember that day being sort of just like really dark and weird, like just imagining running around in a forest someone hunting you in this certain way, you know, like my clothes were all ripped.

And like, yeah, so that I remember that.

Day just like really sticking in my brain like in a weird way.

And we need to know.

I'm sorry, Kara, but I have to know. Was amorrow hot? Is he very hot? In person? Danny Pino?

Oh yeah, yeah, you know what.

I think that was like the only scene I actually had him, and it's like him breaking in, right, yeah, yeah, he's so like, yeah, it's only him like breaking in.

So I didn't have like a ton of interaction with him.

I feel like I maybe had a little bit of interaction with him at like a crafty table at one point, oh okay, where like it was like his scene and then my scene wasn't, like it wasn't a scene we had together.

Like my scene was the next kind of but like that's but yeah, I mean he's hot.

Sure.

I am kind of more into like skinny sad boy musician type.

So like he's not really.

Like like tattoos, Like it's just not he's not really my type.

But honest with us, that's sure.

He's he's obviously very you know, good looking. Yeah, he's good.

He doesn't it talked about in a hotness way like other characters get more hot chats. So I just needed to know does he penetrate through his annoying character?

Oh?

No, he I mean he is very good looking.

Well I didn't.

I didn't look past I mean he's yeah, very like strikingly good looking.

Yeah.

I was just saying like he's not.

Really hurt me, which I totally get.

That's how I feel about That's how I feel about a lot of detectives on the show that our fans are like very horny for.

Are you a New York person?

Yeah, I mean, well I live in LA now, but I lived in New York for like ten years.

Wow.

Like I moved it to New York when I was nineteen.

Wow.

Yeah, we were reading about you and you did like some Broadway stuff and where did they film Walking Dead.

They filmed Walking Dead in Atlanta, so it's a pretty easy fight.

So I would just the first.

Season or so that I was on, I would just fly back and forth, and then eventually I stayed longer, you know, just depended on how busy I was.

And SVU, you can imagine, is like a wild fan base. We're all very obsessed, and then Looking Dead has very intense fan base. Any fun fan interactions or like, do you guys do comic con or stuff like that, Like I would be curious to find out about that fan base.

No, yeah, the best fans, you're right, similar.

To SVU fans, well, you know where it is almost like you all are connected online and you know have in this really great way and supportive. Yeah. I mean I've had so many great interactions with Walking Dead fans. I mean some of them are like I do go to conventions like comic book conventions, and obviously not in the last year, but you know, I'll see some of the same ones, so you start to get to know the fans or just even online. But yeah, I mean some of I've seen with like you know, tattoos of.

My face and stuff and like that.

Always I mean that's it makes me. I'm I mean, go for it, like I guess through them. It's like, oh, it's the character, you know. But it's like sometimes all think to myself, huh, like not even like my mom has a tattoo of my face.

You know.

It's like but I also respect it.

I mean, I am such a fan when it comes to certain music stuff, so like I'll get you know, like I get it, like I love I think it's fun to be excited about art.

So wait, we were I was just thinking about how, like you have to do this scene where you're like being hunted and have to run through the woods and like survive for your life, like and that's essentially walking dead too, right, Like I mean was that like were you well prepared because you'd already done walking dead?

Yeah? I mean I feel like there was a period there were most of my jobs I was like scared and crying sort of like yeah, I was well prepared for running through the woods, you know, all fucked up and like, yeah, scared of something like I do remember thinking to myself like huh, yeah, okay, I got another one of these.

Do you have nightmares or just do you ever take those emotions and like can't get them out of your spirit post work.

Yeah, I mean I do know actors like I have actor friends who seem to be able to just like like talking to you and like eating a sandwich and then they're in the scene and like sad and crying, and I'm like.

I like I for better or for worse, I.

Don't know, but like when I'm writing music, when I'm acting whatever, I like internalize it in a certain way. I don't know if it's always healthy, but I after like season three of Walking Dead, I did have some serious I don't know if it was because of that or other life, but like because you'd have to stay all day in like this crying zone, I would just have a time once I got home getting.

Out of it.

Because if you think about like your natural This is just from learning from my therapist at the time too, but like you know, when you cry, you know how you kind of like start to feel better, You kind of naturally feel like and that's kind of like the

Oh my god.

But I think it's because my brain was just getting so used to getting like triggered into like that sad zone. I mean, I don't know, maybe I do think other actors sometimes have that your friends, where it's like you can get into a zone because it's like you're just all day in a certain you know, spot in your brain and I'll have dreams like I used to have, you know, zombie dreams, and like just like yeah, I don't remember having dreams oft sbu probably because it was just like one.

Yeah, I don't know, one episode.

I'm glad you didn't have dreams of a guy hunting you in the woods.

But the zombie dreams do you are?

Is it like do you know what to do because of the show, You're like, I fucking got no.

In fact, well, there's two that were really intense for me. There was one where I was just like in my off time in New York, and it was like people

You guys like, wait, did you ever listen to the podcast Dirty John?

No, I watched some of the TV show, So did you hear did.

You know that? Like in real life he tries to kill his wife's daughter and she basically fights back and kills him because she learned all these survival skills.

On The Walking Dead.

What she says it in interviews in the podcast, she's like, oh my god, walking Dead fan. She seems a little bit I don't know, I don't know something's going on with her. But she was very into The Walking Dead. And when this guy, when this her mother's boyfriend, who's this grifter, attacks her in the parking lot. She basically was able to fight back from watching so much Walking Dead is what she said.

Interesting, you guys are saving you know what.

I'm yeah, happy, thank you.

Yes, you know, there is something about just I mean, I think any part as an actor, the thing that I love is that you get to like uncover a part of you that you maybe didn't even know was there. And and I do think some of the fighting and stuff that happened on Walking Dead are things that maybe I hadn't thought of or pushed myself to do before, like you know, and there is an element of like, yeah, I mean, what would you do during the apocalypse and like what supplies do you need in your house if

Like just because I've thought about it.

I don't know that I wouldn't necessarily survive any better, but I definitely there's like a library of sort of ideas of what we could do you have to survive and like, and I'm.

Sure you do some like don't you do? Do you do some like combat training or whatever? Like on those sets, Yeah.

We shot guns and we did a lot of like stunt fight training and stuff like that.

And has Walking Dad prepped you for the quarantine like being again?

People are calling me at the beginning of this whole thing, like it's happening.

What should we do on my land? I'm like, I don't know what you should do.

I don't know.

I wanted to ask you cuz you both in this, in your SVU and in Walking Dead, you're sixteen, but you're actually like in your twenties, like kind of into your twenties playing them, Right, what do you do to like keep getting casts as a high schooler?

I think it's just the Pony two.

I don't know, Like I don't know, like I do feel like I in I mean, I feel like I'm starting to look older and like I have this I really like, I can't wait. I've gone to play a mom once, like, well, I guess in SVU, I'm playing a young very because I'm a very young, sixteen year ol mom. And then the last show I did, Messiah for Netflix, I'm a mom and I loved it, and I have like I think it's gonna start to switch over to that maybe just like.

A young mom thing. Yeah, but yeah, I don't know. I think I just am like immature, but maybe not in like a.

Bad way, not like in a bad way, but like I just come across a cert I don't know, but like I love playing young because I've been there before, Like I can't seem to shake it.

Like that's cool though, Hey, that's great.

I mean, I mean, I don't know people are going to be like you're like forty, like.

You need to grow up.

But the way I figure it, like you have literally forever to grow up, so like you might as well.

Right, I mean grow up in certain ways.

I don't mean like be responsible, like I'm responsible, but you know what I mean.

Is there anything that you learned, like in your career being a guest star on all these shows that you brought with you to Walking Dead, being like a main person when like a guest star someone would come in.

Is there any lessons for sure?

I mean I feel like, yeah, when you're a guest star, you're a guest on their set, and you.

Do look to the regulars a little bit.

For I mean, I have my own ways that I know I'm going to do my.

Best work, so I like, of course have that, but I.

Do look to them for a little bit of like I guess, like the thing that I took to Walking Dead because there's a lot of guest stars and Walking Dead too, is like being really welcoming and being really like comfy, because I feel like I do my best work when I get to have a longer arc than just one one episode, because like there's something about like knowing the hair and makeup a little bit better, knowing the camera guys better. No, you know, knowing the other

You hear about shows where like people come on to guests and they're like, oh, the main cast is like bonded and they didn't really talk to us and they didn't really let us in and stuff, and like people sound like SV is not really like that, Like people are pretty like open to yeah, the stars and let everybody in. Yeah.

I felt like everybody was very like, how's he doing?

How are you doing? You would would you have for lunch? You know, like I feel like everybody on SVU.

Is very cool like that. I remember talking to Kelly.

She was Kelly Gettish.

Yeah. It was like one of her first seasons, I think.

Yeah, And so the day that was really long where everything was happening just at the studio because there's like on location stuff and stuff that she was there and she was waiting for some of her scenes too.

And actually, fun fun fact, I.

Used to work at this coffee shop called Gimme Coffee. And Kelly used to work on a show called The Burg, which was a YouTube show and they would shoot around Williamsburg. So this coffee shop was Gimme Coffee and it was off of the lorm Or stop in Williamsburg.

That was like my first job.

I'm like twenty years old in New York City and they would be shooting around Williamsburg and they would come in.

Which leads us perfectly into your podcast.

Oh to my podcast.

Yeah, it's about caffee.

Oh it is about Yeah, I have a deep love for coffee, coffee shop culture like that whole you know, and music. And so if if your listeners love want a new podcast, listen to an addition, mind's.

All about like music.

And so what I do is I people that I'm fans of, like music that I'm fans of, I'll invite them to have coffee with me on my show. And then they usually either make me the coffee that they drink, or maybe we just talk about what coffee they're drinking or what their like morning routine is, and then we talk about like writing songs and music and yeah.

Wow, what a sweetheart. That was fun. That was a fun talk. Yeah.

Now I want coffee actually always, I actually read that if you're craving coffee, that's actually a sign of like sugar addiction too.

Yeah, I didn't.

I felt I didn't want to tell her that I am a for in my life coffee drinker.

Oh yeah, I forget that you don't like coffee. Since I've started eating like a healthier I've been like coffee every day. I need it so hardcore. What have I learned from this horrific episode? Yeah, let's get into our post mortem. I mean, follow your gut, don't ever get into a car, take a credit card no matter what appointment, take photos of ID I mean, no one can be trusted. Sorry, it's the world we live in.

Yes, please see our instagram for Lisa's joke about how she spread her DNA around a guy's apartment during a hookup.

It is one of my favorite jokes.

And I would like to say that guy that the joke is based on I haven't seen in like years, contacted me. We were like, okay, let's get some phone sex situations going in.

The middle of sex. Disappeared.

This happened yesterday or two days ago. He was like, oh yeah, and then stopped responding or looking at me and said, and I think he's been murdered. No, he keeps posting on Instagram and I want to block him, bock him because I'm livid, But I also like, if he gets mad, he can definitely ruin my life and post so many photos of me and compromising situations.

So I don't know what to do.

Anyway, just because someone has a dog in their car doesn't mean you should trust them. I once took a ride with a stranger in Italy because he had a car seat in the back of the car. Stupid, stupid, stupid, Like, don't do it. I mean, what happened. He just drove me where I had to go. It was very nice, but like I'm just saying, like it's stupid. It's stupid to just assume anything about people like this man, the

And those are those are the ones you gotta watch.

Yeah, and then yeah, we say this a lot the in cells. You stop, like the patriarchy fucking sucks, and all these killers just can't get late enough. And it's like I didn't get late in high school. You know, I'm not strangling people in the woods.

I don't understand.

Yeah, people need to re examine their hatred of women and look inward for sure.

Also, never trust a man if he says another man is or is not creepy, they have no idea.

They have no radar for it. Yeah, they have no radar.

They will look at a full, full on pirate who's just pillaged a town and be like, oh, Ted, he's pretty cool.

Yeah he's nice. We watch games together. Yeah, we look the same team. Yeah. He could be.

In a wet raincoat splattered with blood.

And he'd be like that guy hunts. Yeah, he's a hunt He's just like just a real man's man. You know, I love that guy.

Yeah.

We cannot trust men's assessment of other men. They just really don't know how many creeps they're friends with. Constantly, I'm shocked how many creeps I'm friends with.

Yeah, I also learned that tomorrow. I mean I didn't learn this. I've known this, but we don't give enough attention to tomorrow. He's very hot. I don't like his character very much, but he's very hot as a man. Danny Pino very hot.

And we learn some FoST assess the information from you. Kara, Yeah, professor friend. Yeah, that's all really really important information. And let me get into that right now with what would sister peg do? We have a couple of recommendations for you for what were Sister peg do? One is Heather Heatherberg, who we spoke to about sex work, has a book called Porn Work, Sex Labor, and Late Capitalism.

Pick that up on Amazon. She's very very smart and very very knowledgeable about the whole world of sex work and you know, the government and how it's being dealt with. And then she recommended a website called Hacking Hustling dot org to us, and it is a collective of sex worker survivors and accomplices working at the intersection of tech and social justice to interrupt state surveillance and violence facilitated by technology. So that is her wreck and therefore are

And next week's episode will be Fault season seven, episode nineteen, And as always, the episodes are on Hulu and Peacock.

And as we.

Noted last week, go to your local library they have DVDs. Baby, thank you so much. We'll see you on the internet and next week, and we appreciate all of you listening.

Bye bye.

That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email at That's Messed Up Pod at gmail dot com.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Klink.

And at glitter Cheese.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to SBU super fan and our incredible producer, Hannah.

Kyle Kraton, and to our sound engineer and personal hero Anali Snilson, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song, to Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thanks to our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

Listen, subscribe, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, go to midroll dot com. Slash ads Done done,