Head w/ James Urbaniak

Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on. These are our stories, done done.

Hello, Welcome to That's Messed Up an sv podcast.

I am Lisa Traeger.

And I am Kara Klank And every week we take you through an episode of Law and Order SVU as well as the true crime that it was based on. And then we interview a fantastic guest from the show. And yeah, today's another hot one. Lisa, what's going on? You are not in Los Angeles right now?

No, I'm in Philadelphia.

I'm doing my first road gig since the first weekend of March twenty twenty.

So I'm really excited. I'm so excited for you.

Yesterday it was a full day of travel, Like it was just all day, all night travel, which is fine.

I ate edibles.

I was in the groove. I took a bunch of edibles last night. I was like, I'm gonna sleep in. I can't wait to do comedy. We're gonna record. And then I woke up to noises and I was like, oh, that's just the toilet, singing, that's not none of my business. Put my feet on the ground full soaking wet carpet. The toilet from like that top thing, just squirting water out.

Oh wait, stop it.

Even the engineer came, I go have you ever seen anything like this? He goes, Never. It was truly insane. Water everywhere? Thank god, nothing was plugged in and I I was responsible and hung up all of my dresses and my suitcase was on that little standing they give you.

Yeah, I would have been upsetting.

But yeah, water everywhere, but no one was acting like it was crazy. The guy downstairs was like, oh right. I'm like, is there a new room? Will you offer me breakfast? What is happening that? Everyone was just chill. That's why the engine Finally I was like, why is everyone being so relaxed?

This is out of control? He goes, this is out of yeah. Yeah, wait, so what did they do?

I got moved down the hall, I o him h VAC all morning and then I closed the blinds, put on SVU on USA and fell asleep to the sounds of tarn manning murder. But yeah, that's it. And now I'm here. Oh my, I think I'm gonna try to finangle breakfast. But because of COVID hotel, things are still weird. There's not room service, the bars only open up four. You know, there's a lot of weird things. Yeah, but I did get really good late night sushi, which is

Yeah.

Ran to a coffee shop to get some coffee to be energized, and it was closed. Had to go to wuah wah. I had to get a mint mocha. Halfway through it stopped pouring. You have to pay.

Before I was in, I was about to cry.

Oh, you're like in Philadelphia, what are you doing to me?

Are I have to record a podcast? And he's like, we'll help you, we'll help you. So but yeah, no, it is a really it's really beautiful. My hotel's on the water, so I love that. Also, I mean, all I really see online now is Brittany. It's all about Britney Stey now.

I know.

I am like devouring all the Britney coverage. It's amazing to hear her talk for herself after so many years of essentially being incarcerated, like in her own home. I had no idea that she has an iud in, that her father will not let her go to the doctor to have removed. She wants to have a baby with her new boyfriend.

And it's not even a new boyfriend. They've been together for year. Yes, yes, yes, you're right, Yes, my thing is you know. She did take a while to speak out, and I wonder if the Free Britney movement, all the support from all her like colleagues and peers, kind of helped her come forward. But I really hope this pushes the judges to make a better decision. And I went to that tour when she's like, I was forced to tour and I didn't want to, Like I went to that concert.

I feel terrible. Yeah, like and she was awesome, but yeah.

Her dad is a bad man, bad and like conservatorship laws need to be revamped, Like this is not okay, Like conservatorship laws are for like people who are completely like non compass ventis, like people that can't you know, speak, not perfectly healthy thirty nine year old women who have.

Like that are being put on lithium.

Yeah, like that's I just I want the best for her, and I hope this is like the push.

I hope they end up.

And it's like, if you think she's too sick to control all her money and control her family and all that, then she's too sick to tour like you cannot.

She compared it to sex trafficking.

Yeah, because she didn't have her passport, she couldn't drive, she didn't have anything on her, and I just and then Justin put out a fucking statement, It's like, have you know we know her from anything from you? We

And just to remind people, Cameron Hooker is the psychopath who held Colleen stan as his sex slave in a box under her bed for seven years.

Just in case you forgot and other news, other court news.

Paul Bernardo of the Canon Barbie Killers, the Scarborough rapist, was denied pearl and he was denied day parol. I think you know there's some kind of pearl where you can like leave and then come back to jail at night. He was denied all parole, so that's good news.

Yeah.

I have one friend who had to serve a month in jail and he had work release, so he would like go to work.

And then come back at night.

But his family didn't want anyone to know, like his extended family, what was going on, so they told all the family that he got laysick and that's why his mom had to come help him drive him to and from work from jail. But now, like any like anytime there's a photo, they're like, take off your glasses because he has to keep the chiagos.

Yeah, the ruse that he got laysick. I love that, but he has glasses.

My friend went to jail for three days, but it was like in Philadelphia actually, and it was for like a pretty bad dui where she also got found with drugs on her and like she was for three days on bunk beds in a room right room, no bars, a door that was unlocked, she could wear her regular clothes.

I'm like, what kind of jail was this? Chill jail?

But I guess she said the worst person she said the worst crime really that she was in there with her was like a pharmacist who was like writing bad prescription. So I think it was like low like not non violent, yeah, non violent crimes.

Although what do you why is is yeah, yeah, you could hurt me. But back in the day, do you guys were seen chiller?

You know what I mean?

It's kind of like we didn't have seat belts in cars in the sixties and the nineties. Everyone drank and drove in There's just too many past and present tenses.

I figure that one out. Also, your mom came to visit.

Yes, my mom came. She was very helpful with Oscar. She loves Oscar.

Yeah, she's very good with him.

And she met Lisa and she was She was asking me after, She's like, so, what else does Lisa do besides your podcast.

I was like, comedy, baby, She's the comedy dream. I likes meeting your mom.

I like when I was like, are you a editarian too, and she was like absolutely not.

Yeah. She was like offended.

Oh wait, speaking of my mom and a little bit of my childhood. Because I asked her about this, I got literally no fewer than four hundred messages from all of you guys. I mean probably more between my own account and the That's Messed Up account. The Chipmunks movie has really resonated with you guys, and I'm so glad. I want all of you to know. Some people wrote me saying I thought I dreamed this movie. People wrote me saying no one I've ever met has seen this movie.

I want you to know that.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of people out there that I've seen it and are obsessed with it, because they have all messaged me in the past week, and I don't know, what can I say, Chipmunk ive like we are bonded now forever, and I want you guys to send me any updated Chipmunk news whenever you hear it.

I know, but I was totally feeling left out. It's on YouTube, though, Let's watch it okay with Rosie? Maybe? Yeah, that would be really fun.

A lot of people tell me I loved it as a kid, and I've shown it to my kids and they didn't care about I think I can get Rosy into it. She's into gummy bears and some other old stuff. So anyway, you're not alone. And also people have been writing to you, Lisa about the subway tuna because we happen to talk about it the week that Subway tuna went viral, which is what can I say? We dictate the trends here at that's messed up.

I just know that I will get the tuna again, so it's like, we stop sending it to me.

I don't care what it's made out of. It's good.

No, I don't want to eat it anymore. I'll just go to Jimmy John's for the tuna out.

But I love that they did a tuna DNA test on the sandwich food.

Did I talk about the Hills last week two or no? Because yeah you did? It is it's just more and more upsetting.

I feel so bad that no one intervened and went, Heidi, this is an abusive relationship. How about now? Still to this day, he cut everyone that she loves out of her life. It is so like awful to watch. I mean, I can't stop. I will watch the whole thing, but just upsetting what they let reality tell and kind of I don't know, it's just it's again watching young women ruin their lives and then it's like everyone just sitting being like yeah, yeah.

For entertainment, yeah, for sure. Definitely upsetting.

I wish I had a fun plane story or because I don't know, I wish there was something something cool to end on. We do live exciting lives.

I don't know.

I'm really excited, Like I feel like so vicariously.

Excited for you being on the road.

I'm like, oh my god, she's gonna check into hotel, she's gonna get food, then like tomorrow she's gonna have the day, and then like she's gonna.

Eat all these other comics. It's like so fun.

I did buy a ticket to go to the Barnes Collection. So I'm gonna go to the Philadelphia Art Museum. But it is a cool crime documentary. It's called The Art of the Steal. If anyone wants to watch.

It, it's oh, yeah, I've been meaning too.

Yeah, and it's Philadelphia basically stole this man's artwork and changed his will and it like fucked his wishes after he died. But I'm going to go look at it.

I got I gotta see.

Uh these d koonings, you know what I mean. Yeah, I only know that because of our friend. Okay, so our friends we didn't talk about Father's Day, our friends who were close with instead of like, oh it's a family hangout since they always see their kids all the time, it's actually like mom or dad get their day off. And so I did. I got to go to the

Me and the mom of this couple went to a hotel for the afternoon together and just laid by a pool. We're like, take the children away from us. This is what we want to do. It's the best. But Lisa, I would say, always bet on Ricotta. Yeah, in every aspect of life, always bet on Ricotta.

I bet on all the ones that had fun names. I bet on sure pro Bo No, No, I bet on all the SVU themed horses. But it was just like, I love that I get to do boys' Night. But I did ask him. I go, how many people did you ask before you asked me? He goes, five people said no, And I go, well, it's okay. I did say yes.

My husband was one of them.

Okay, let's get going with today's episode.

All right, let's get going.

We are talking about the episode head season five, episode twenty five. I gotta admit this episode title makes you think it's gonna be about something completely different than what it's about.

Well, I keep singing getting some head. Get you know that song? Or no, was getting some head? You don't know that song?

Well, I mean, Lisa, you're a little tone dep it's hard to know the songs.

Oh oh yeah, I think you meant tone deaf like it was an offensive song.

I was like, it's just a song about head.

No, you told me that you're tone deaf sas when you sing a lyric. I don't really, I can't place it.

Get in some head? No, Okay, I love this, Let's release this.

This is our new theme song. Is just Lisa saying getting some head, over and over.

Okay.

This episode from two thousand and four, it's one of my like all time remember this one. It's always stuck in my head as as a great episode.

So I was in high school. I was a senior in high school. Crazy. Oh yeah, I was out of college.

So we open on a sassy professional woman with no time for bullshit who walks into a coffee house, orders her coffee and then is like bathroom this way and she's like just having like a full Devilwares produ moment on the phone, and she drops her phone in the toilet, and that's when she like lifts up the seat to get her cell phone, her like flip phone out of the toilet. She realizes that there's a tiny toilet cam in the toilet.

Okay, so now we.

Cut to Elliott and Olivia inspecting the equipment with Ruben Morales from TARRU, which a lot of people have been writing to us saying they have always thought Tarru was a person and that is not what it's like technical Assistance Response Unit or something like that. It's like whenever they have to go through a phone, it's Tarru and stablers like peeping toms have gone high tech on us. It's like high tech people are always going to be

I don't know, you know what I mean, Like I just feel like, yeah, they're.

Alally the charge of technology, yes, and they were in everything, but also I love my iPhone, so I don't know, Wait, I don't know if this is a movie or real life or a shit. I don't know anymore what is real or not. But someone was listening to porn on their phone and it was connected to the Bluetooth speaker, and so everyone was hearing the porn.

I think that's probably definitely happened in real life, but I don't know. Okay, So they are at this coffee house where they found the camera, and they're just looking around at like, you know, dozens and dozens of people on their laptops, and Benson's like, which one of them is the pervert? And Stabler's like the guy who downloaded the most crap, and I'm like, lol, I guess it's like that's a double entendre about the toilet cam. Okay,

It's none of them.

Munch is in the you know, giving his little quips where he goes gives a whole new meeting to live streaming video whoa Huang says they're looking for a europhiliac, which is sexual attraction to urine, or a copperphiliac, which is a sexual attraction too, and then Benson cuts him off before he can say it, but we know he's talking about poop.

Okay, Oh, I thought it was.

Gonna be something else when I didn't really catch on, huh, well, what did you think just filming pe like not p but like secret filming, that was going to be Oh yeah.

That's yeah, there's a voyeuristic nature. But europhiliac is sexual attraction, you'reine. Coprophilia is sexual attraction to faces.

I guess.

So these are not heavily studied paraphilias, he says, but they often are the result of like a hostile home life or abuse, where like a child can like turn inwards on themselves and become obsessed with their own bodily functions.

So that's interesting.

I never really knew that was like those two things were linked together.

They said, the guy is probably not dangerous.

The guy who's planting these cameras, his crime is voyeuristic, but he's antisocial and he doesn't want any contact with the victims, Like I.

Don't think he's trying to hurt anybody. He just wants to watch them.

P and Piece, Finn and Munch go get info at a spy store to track down the equipment.

And I think I've told you about this, Lisa.

I don't want to get into like too much detail about it because I don't want to get my friend in trouble.

But I've told you about my friend.

Who you know, you've met before, who has gone into a spy store and used spy equipment to spy on something before, Like, what.

Are they spying on? Well, she was trying to take a test. Yeah, yeah, I can't I can't remember.

Yeah, she was trying to take a test, and she was spying, like using spyware, not to cheat on the test herself, but to get information for other people. It's kind of confusing, but I'm almost positive she wants to this spy store because I think this is a spy store in New York, in like the West Village or something.

Anyway, So they go there.

They meet Charlie, who is played by my comedy obsession Amy Sedaris.

Are you Amy Sidaris fan? I love her so much. I am a huge Amie Sidaris fan.

She's also best friends with Sarah Jessica Park Her any friend of s JP is a friend of mine. Yes, And I went to the premiere of At Home with Amy Sedaris and me and my friend were the first ones at the party and we were the last to leave. We couldn't get enough. It was like my first kind of big party like that. As JP was there and I ended up going home with the pie because I was the last man standing.

They were like, get this pie out of here.

And the pie with the crust said at home with Amy Sedaris on.

The pie Wow and I ultimate swag beaked good and so I obviously love her.

But I also was in Horace and Peep.

I know you didn't think I was going to go on a monologue, but I was in Horace and Pete with her, and she kind of not scolded me. But I was friendly with one of the PA's and we'd work together on a different show too, and so I went, huh, you got sunburn?

What did you do?

And she went, that is so rude, And so I was like scolded by her a little.

I would say, that is a scolding for someone to just say that is so rude.

Yeah, she scolded me. Not really, no, she.

But we knew each other and he was sunburnt. You know, like if you're looking tan, I'm saying, what'd you do?

I step down from you went to the premiere party of one of her books, one of her like crafting books that spawned her television show. And it was really really tiny at like the Bonne up a Tite, like some bonn upetite place in the New York Times building, so super super tiny, and Sarah Jessica Parker Matthew Roderick were there, and I did back up into Sarah Jessica Parker and then say, oh, excuse.

Me, and we had like a little moment like that.

But I made Amy Sidaris sign my book Greek surch just Jews without Money, which is a quote from Strangers with Candy, which is one of my all time favorite shows and not something that I believe.

Please don't come for me Greek or Jewish people. That's funny though, that's a good bit. That's so mad.

But watching her work on Horse and p I will say, she's an improv obviously legend, but like every take was different. She was making everyone laugh, like no one could keep it together. And so I'm wondering watching the scene did she improvise?

Was this written?

Did they let Amy be Amy? Is this too long ago? I wonder what it was? But she is perfect, I guess what we're saying is we're perfect. We're obsessed with her, not we're perfect. She's perfect and were her.

Yeah.

So Amy Sedaris plays Charlie, who is this like spycam whiz. She works in the back of the spycam shop and she does all the custom jobs, so she like knows she's like, I make five hundred custom spycams a year or whatever, like she makes so many. And she leads them to this porn production company called Fetish Manner, and they are definitely using the cameras in a non spying way, like everybody knows that they're being filmed at this place. They use these waterproof spy cams for like the shower,

Have you have you heard of that?

Well? I think it's just like OnlyFans are like if you're live streaming, and then the or like camming and then people are typing like do this or I want to see this, and then you can.

Like tip money.

But also I remember watching Real Sex when I was a kid, and there was like a house of young women with cameras everywhere and they like lived their lives.

And people could pay like just to like put like pop in and look at it. Yeah.

Yeah, So I thought it was like pretty I thought it was pretty progressive for two thousand and four, and like like the way, you know, that's kind of thing I think people would be into now, like with camming exactly. And we get a glimpse of Coco Tea herself in her first role on S for You. She's been in a three or four episodes, but this is her first role where she's listed as porn queen and she comes like, you know, skittering down the sidewalk with like her huge boobs and it's just like.

We're coming, We're coming, and like she has like a.

Cute little line. So that was a fun, fun little the intro to Coco in the SVU universe. Then Munch, they're back at the station, a monch is like can you believe Fetish Manor has over three hundred thousand hits. It's like, yes, of course I can believe that Munch like people like to watch porn. Like this is not incredible, all right. The next part is a little.

Bit too much of a stretch for me.

For SVU, this random man walks into the precinct and goes, I think I may have run into the spy cam pervert. So this assumes that, like, this case is so big that everyone's read about it. This man remembers that when he was getting out of a cab, a man was rushing out of the coffee shop holding a coffee cup from the coffee place knocked it all over him. And this is how they're finding the guy. They track this man's receipts on the cab, so they find a cab.

Did you clock this guy?

There's just this like hot guy who's sunbathing on the stoop of his New York apartment, which I have to say, I've never seen a single fucking person ever do like on the front stoop of your New York apartment, go and sit up on the tarmac, get up through the fire escape, and like get up on the roof.

What are you doing here? He's like he's so annoyed.

He goes ough, like barely opens his eyes and he's like, and I honestly I looked to find this guy on IMDb because I was like, I pray this man is quid acting because he's so bad. But his character is like not even listed in the IMDb. If you find it, let me know. But I read through the IMDb and the fan wiki and like could not find like annoyed sunbather or like neighbor man or anything listed. He has information to give them, but he is simultaneously so bothered

Sometimes he just got a pleeeze in a tan when you can.

Get it, I guess he was. Really he was a very la character.

In a New York show. I was like, you don't belong here, and so he basically tells them, oh, it's like the first door on the left. Oh, get out of my son, Benson.

And then they get to the apartment and who opens the door of the apartment but Charlie aka Amy Sedaris. So she they're like, all right, the jig is up, Charlie, what's going on? And she's like, it's my baby brother, Wade, Wade Donado. He's having trouble. He had trouble holding down a job, so he came to couch surf and he ended up staying for two years.

That's gotta suck.

She admits that she made the cam for him, but she says he's not a pervert, he's just troubled. And she says we didn't have a pleasant childhood, so that kind of backs up what Hong said before. And they're like, you know, your brother is sick, Like, let us stop him so like we can get him the counseling he needs.

So she dumps this huge box of like p centric.

Porn and homemade DVDs onto the ground and then at just At that moment.

Wade walks in.

He's pissed, pun superintended that people are his privacy and he is played by the very very funny James Orbaniac. So it's funny to see these two comedy people just playing this brother sister troubled duo. In interrogation, Wade does not want to talk about it. He's like, this is my private thing that I do, like, don't talk to me about it. And then Stabler walks in with his p journal where he has documented all of his PCAM footage,

It's I mean, it's I'm being a third grader.

It's an invasion of privacy and it's definitely a crime, but it is kind of funny.

I'm curious to know what his favorite type of p is.

Right, are you loving? Like a light It's like me with Rose. I like a light, light, pink rose. I don't really like a darker rose. But some people that's their thing, you know, yeah, but they're sick in the head. You want a light rose, I.

Know, I want it to be light blush page. If you want a dark one, just drink a sand area, go get juice. You know I'll also do that.

So he thinks he weirdly thinks he's done nothing wrong because the videos are for private use, and he's like, just like give me, let me pay the fine so I can bounce. And it's like, Okay, you've got to know you're doing something wrong. You ran out of the coffee house and knocked a man over to get out of there. And I think they mentioned Stephanie's Law, which they said was passed in August.

Now I look this up.

Stephanie's Law is moved unlawful surveillance to a Class E felony, punishable by up to four years imprisonment for first time offenders and up to seven years for repeat offenders. And it was named after a Long Island woman named Stephanie Fuller, whose landlord Liza, I know this is creepy, this is triggering for you because you did have somebody come and

Peeping Tom in New York. So I'm glad that happened. That reminds you of Aaron Andrews.

Do you remember like people were spying on her through the hotel, the ESPN woman. Oh no, I wonder if there's an SVU based on her. That was like such a big case. I think she won a lot of money.

WHOA.

There definitely is a sportscaster or SVU where something happens, but I think it's more of an assault thing. And there's like, aren't there rules like you can tape someone as long as there's they're not talking, as long as there's no volume or something, which I think seems fucked up.

I don't know about that. Oh, I don't know. We have to look that up.

So now like basically they're getting Wade shook, Like he's realizing now that he has as actually stands to serve some jail time here.

So he spooked.

He wants to make a deal, and he basically is like, I've got something you can work with. Go to like our twelve minute fifty two on this tape and check out what check out what there is, Like he in his mind knows exactly the timecode of this place, which I think speaks to his but.

You know this is upsetting.

Yeah, So they go and they check out the camera and they see footage of a young boy coming into the bathroom stall crying, possibly having been attacked.

He's got to cut over his eye.

And then you see an adult from just like the sort of like mid section down come in and assaults him on camera before the camera goes out. So you can't actually tell who You can't see the face of the person who it is or anything. But it's pretty upsetting because it's just like you're just watching kind of like two bodies like well.

I also don't I mean, I understand he didn't want to get caught, but if he sent it secret, I mean to sit on this and not do anything about it, like go to jail.

I fucking hate him.

I know, that's it's pretty bad. You got to see something. If you see something on your PCAM, say something.

Come on.

So now we're in a holding cell, and Stabler feels the way you feel. Okay, So because we're in a holding cell now, and Stabler grabs Wade and starts, like you know, doing his man handling tough guy act and He's really mad that he saw that this guy saw this gown and did nothing.

And you know, Wade's like, what was I supposed to do?

Tell you that I captured it all on my p KM or whatever, like he's like, you know, and then Wade gives it up that it was recorded in Central Park and that he was too far away to like identify anyone or see the purp. So now they're at TRU and Morales is using some kind of equipment that

Either way, they're able to like.

Fully clean up this photo and get like a very very clear picture of this guy's face. They're able to distinguish the fact that the purp takes up cup out of his pants like an Athletic Cup and they see that the cup is being held by manicured So the purp is a woman or a drag queen, I mean, but I mean, I guess they're kind of ruling it out it's a woman. So they figure out the location, the game, schedule, the team color, and they narrow it

So that's how they narrow it down that he plays for the Bulldogs.

They check their schedule and they go to the game and they identify this boy on the tape as Shane Madden, who they're talking to the coach and he's like, he's our star forward. They said Shane got kicked out of the game that day for fighting and that his mom was there and she was wasted. Okay, so now we're at Shane's school where the principal. We meet the principal named Meredith Rice, and she points out Shane when he's

They asked Shane what happened.

He kind of denies it at first, and then he says it was a stranger, that a stranger just came in and attacked him, and then when the kind of press them a little bit more, he's like, you guys suck and leaves, so he's mad. The principle kind of reiterates the claim that the mom is a drunk, that she came to career day wasted, which I kind of love. I mean, I kind of love a beautician who comes to career day a little bit sauce. I think that's fun, maybe not for the kid, but just in general for

I hate it because crop sounds a lot like crap, like crop, I think of maybe even corn. Like I've never thought haircut equals crop, so I think it's a bad day.

It is an old way to say, like, oh, she had short, closely cropped hair or something like that.

It is an old school way, but like I hear what you're saying.

I feel like Creme de la Crem would be a fine name, Like you didn't even need.

A pun or fuck it, just call it Crem. Yeah. I got my hair done at Crem. Yeah, less money on the signage. Yeah, look we are we should literally be on shark Tank. Okay.

They go to the salon. The mom is like really not that concerned. She's just like, my son is so hot, Like she's really obsessed with how attractive her son is, and like, no, wonder people are going out for him.

He's hot.

But then they're like, no, he was assaulted by a woman in the bathroom, and she's like what. Like then she kind of snaps out of it, and they ask the mother were there any non moms at the game, and she says Cindy Bellamy, Shane's old babysitter. So this is like a weird side note. They go talk to Cindy. She was like, I was at the game babysitting other kids. I'm a strict babysitter, but the kids have fun and twelve fifteen hours nothing to sneeze at. And I'm like,

So I works with an agency.

So I made less than what you I think you would have made being a loose independent contractor of a babysitter.

But I enjoyed the job. I think I only made like fifteen sixteen to be honest, still better than twelve fifty.

I weirdly got so many of my babysitting jobs off Craigslist. I would put myself on Craigslist and be like, I'm an experienced babysitter, I'm a camp counselor all this stuff, and people would just contact me and I would like babysit for their families for years off of Craigslist.

By the way, did I tell you my nephew is a camp counselor this year?

You did? And okay, get me.

It fills my heart with joy. Now my question is is his girlfriend going to or are they gonna write letters from camp?

I haven't you know what. That's a good, good question. He's also going to college. I bet he's gonna have a few more girlfriends.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh.

I hope she doesn't listen. I hope she doesn't listen.

Lisa is not giving a good prognosis for this teen romance, so she looks great.

I forgot that he did tell me people from his school do listen. But maybe they'll work it out. I don't care.

I just I should not scale there beans. I bet he doesn't even know. I know that he has a girlfriend.

I was just stalking on Instagram and digging through everything. Well, he had a necklace with a half heart lego. That's a girlfriend. No, No, just friends walking around with a half heart lego.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. He's like, yeah, this is for me and my best guy friend. We just like love legos and we love friendship.

So basically, Cindy's like a silly little red herring Like she's basically like, I would never touch a kid.

I'm dating one of my professors. I like older men.

And she basically steers suspicion back towards the mom. She's like, the mom is so drunk. I used to maybe sit for him, and he would. She would come home so wasted with a younger guy than she left with. She's into young guys, Like, so this is the this is like where they're trying to steer you. Craigan is incredulous. He's like, I woke up with plenty of regrettable bedmates in my drinking days, and I just like love the idea of Craigan waking up hungover and being.

Like fuck not Deborah, Oh God, like you know.

So they're like, go check out the mom again, like at the game, but I mean, Kraigan's kind of like, I don't know, Like there's one thing is being a drunk and the other thing is like being a pedophile and an ancestral pedophile to your own child. So they go to a Bulldog's game and they find out that the sweatshirt that the Purp is wearing in the video, it's like this light blue sweatshirt. They it's actually a Booster Club sweatshirt, and every mom at the game has one.

I love that.

I love being like we got the evidence and it's like, uh, we all have Yeah, I.

Like that we sold these as merch basically, and there are dozens and dozens of these sweatshirts out there. And the drunk mom Missus Madden, also has one. She's wearing one. She's trying. She's drinking a Roadie like out of a plastic cup. Olivia's like, ma'am, have you been drinking? Can I check what's in your cup?

And she's like oops and just spills all the booze out onto the ground. I mean, I kind of love her. She's really fun.

Not to be a mom, not to be a mom, just to observe as a television character. Stabler notices that the principal, Meredith Rice, is over like in a far field talking to Shane. But this isn't a school team, so like, what would she be doing there? And we see Shane and the principal hug and then the principal leaves with another young boy, so Benson and Stabler follow her and they're like, hi, Principal Rice, what's going on?

They're kind of like why are you here? And she was like, oh, my son's.

In an older league and so he plays, you know, in a field next door or whatever.

And she's like, they're.

Like, why were you talking to Shane And she's like, I'm guy, gotta go. We're late for a pizza party. Also, I know this is I mean, now I want pizza.

But off topic, I wonder if these children know how lucky they are to be playing innermural sports at fucking a central park. I know, like the kids who's school or cams and sports are in Central fucking Park.

Like I don't know if New York kids understand. No, they probably do.

I got to play like softball ones in Central Park with like my Page program league, and I was like, this is so cool that I'm playing a game in Central Park right now, Like on the baseball you knew I recognized. I don't know about these kids, but I'm just think it's funny that she's like, officers were late for a pizza party. So if you guys like definitely want the cops to know that you're guilty, just tell them you're late to a pizza party because you couldn't think of a better excuse.

Yeah, you could be late to a pizza party. No one cares. Nobody cares. The cheese is gonna be all cold and hard when we get there. We gotta go.

And she keeps walking with her son like he's an elderly widow. She keeps like putting shawls around him and like ushering him away. It's just very very strange and funny. And so then now they're looking into the principle. The principal's got a stellar record, she's been married for seven years, she's got one step son. Finn and Munch chased down some footage of the game from two weeks ago, and

Never really done.

So they ask a bunch of teachers what's going on, and they I'll say, oh, she's pulled Shane from class a bunch recently. And once Shane had a note that looked like it was written by a kid, but missus, but Principal Rice confirmed it was her handwriting.

So they're looking at all.

Olivia is like going through this stack of like student reports that the principal files and notices that like, progressively throughout the time, Meredith's signature is getting like sloppier and sloppier. So that's just like a little hint for what we find out in the future. At Principal Rice's house, Stabler reveals that Meredith and Shane have now both gone missing. Okay, he tells, uh, the husband, we think your wife has

Not a great move.

If you swing at Stabler, you better be sure you don't miss, because he's going to put you in a headlock.

And that's what he does.

And he does admit something's changed in my wife. She hasn't been herself. She's been preoccupied. She snaps at little things, and she's a tiger in the bedroom, just cannot get enough sex. So basically, their car is missing from their garage. She's taken the car and Shane and they get a call that they're on a highway in New Jersey.

Someone spotted the car with the license te number.

Like twelve cop cars and a helicopter show up. This is how important it is to rescue this boy. It's a full operation. It reminds me of like the final scene of The Undoing, if you've seen that. And when they get they get open the car door, they grab Shane and Meredith is like in the backseat of the car throwing up, so they arrest her.

So this is like very weird, like what's going on? Are you drunk?

Why are you barfing? Like it's you know, there's a lot happening here. So when they are in interrogation, Benson is taking a run at this woman okay, at Principal Rice, and she's like, my head is splitting, and she says she knows what she's been doing is wrong. She says that the soccer game two weeks ago was the first time, and she fed him into the bathroom because he was crying and she wanted to check on him. And the

It wasn't like there was a romancing. It was just started happening. She says.

The first time he resisted, but after that he couldn't get enough. So they're like, okay, do you always take orders from sixth graders? And she's basically like when and when you say sixth grade, like the kid looks a little bit older. To me, but like when you say sixth grade, I'm like, Dan, that is so freaking young, Like that's really really awful.

So she's spiraling out. She's like, my life is a nightmare and I don't know why.

And then suddenly she lunges at Stabler and starts making out with him. He slams her against a wall and she starts having a seizure. I mean he slams her against the wall in a way of like get off of me, lady.

And then she starts having a seizure.

Now that's considered I guess, sort of an attack on a suspect.

So Ed Tucker shows up.

Everybody's hated IAB guy at this point in the series.

Everybody hates him obviously.

Later people warm up to him, and Elliot's like, I'm waiting for my rep and he brings up He brings up Stabler's interview from Slaves actually where he talks about dreaming about killing pedophiles. So it's like, you're a person we know likes to rough people up. You know, You're like, we've got a little red flag on you. Over at IAB Stabler. The doc comes out and says they found something on her CT scan. They're rushing her to surgery now, and then it turns out she has a brain tumor

It seems she's a proestional. Yeah.

She was stretching in a way where I'm like, yeah, you did just get out of a lung surgery.

Yeah, because she was like, it took us eight hours, but it looks like we got it all. And I'm glad you noticed her stretching. Well, it was so good, it was really.

Novak is like itching for an arraignment.

She's like, I need to arrange this woman quickly, and the doctor's like, well, she's not going anywhere for five or six days, and Novak's like, no problem, We'll get a judge and a clerk down here for a pedside arraignment.

And the doctor's kind of like hold up.

Novak, like, you know that the damage to the frontal lobe can diminish impulse control, and she still she knows it's wrong, but the tumor is affecting the area of the brain that controls behavior. So there's like a difference between action and thought in this situation. And the doc says, you know, it's possible that she might not be a pedophile anymore post surgery, this might not be like an.

Issue for her.

Novak is chatting with Wang, this is what are I gonna do? Write a note that says, please excuse Meredith for molesting boys.

She had a bad.

Tumor good one, Novak and Huang says, it's a really good case for acquired sociopathy. Meanwhile, three other victims have come forward at this school. One said that Meredith hugged and kissed him, and the other two said they were fondled.

So she's been doing this a bunch lately, and it's.

All happened like lately, because she says that this game two weeks ago was the first time that she even did anything with Shane. Huang argues that she lacked the mens rehea to be accountable for her actions, But did she act on those tendencies before the tumor or are the tendencies still there?

Nobody knows.

She wants to do anything to clear her name, so she submits to doing brain mapping, which is like an experiment where they're going to like put VR goggles on her, so they're going to show her sexual images of children and see what it does to her brain, like if her brain responds. She claims like she's fine now, I would never do anything like this. I know the damage it can cause, and admits that she was molested starting at age eight.

For four years by her grandfather.

So after the scan the brain mapping, she shows no signs of arousal at these images. She's basically no longer a threat to society. And Novak says it has to pass the Dobert test to be admissible. So just FYI, the Dobert standard is a rule of evidence regarding the admissibility of expert witness testimony. You may have heard it referred to as the Fried standard. That's what I remember learning when I was growing up, and that is the

Of the states.

So just so you know, thank you for explaining that, Kara, because I had no idea and was not going to look it at so thanks so much for helping me and the listeners.

So Huang points out that her handwriting has gone back to normal after the surgery. So that's when we saw earlier her handwriting getting all sloppy. It's like, you know, after you have a stroke or you have like a neurological incident, your handwriting can change.

And so her handwriting's back to normal.

And Huang explains that her own molestation as a child lowered her set point, so she was basically predisposed to something like this. Craigan said he found a similar case in Virginia where the tumor was found when the man was in jail, they removed it, he was released, and a year later he molested again because the tumor had grown back.

So Novak is like pretty stuck on this. She doesn't really know what to do here.

They're in talks now with her lawyer, who is Cleo Conrad aka Jill Marie Lawrence seventeen episodes of SVU, A classic defense attorney. They offer her Rape three, which is five years of probation and periodic psych and medical evaluation, and Meredith is not allowed to have any future contact with the victims, and.

She has to register as a sex offender. She takes the plea.

Her lawyers like, don't do it, like she'll never be able to work with children again, and she's like, no, the children need to be protected in case something does happen again, and she takes the plate. So Stabler goes to visit Shane and he seems really sad. He has dropped out of band, dropped out of soccer, and said Jason Rice, who has Meredith's step son, slugged him in the cafeteria for breaking up his family, not really his fault.

Thought she loved me.

He thought he was like in a relationship with this woman, which is sad, and he's like I just want to die, and Stabler's like, I'm going to get you some help, and they basically are like, yeah, he's going to need a lot of therapy, and like there's not good odds that he'll have a healthy sex life, and there are good odds that he'll become an offender because the cycle of abuse just kind of like rages on. And then they get a call about an incident at Meredith's house the principal.

So they head.

Over there and missus Madden is there. I love that we get to see her one more time. Shane's mom is there. She's wasted. She has attacked Meredith and said that Meredith has tried to call Shane.

And they're like, why did you call him? You know that that's part.

Of your deal that you're not allowed to have any contact with any of your victims, and she's like, he had a right to know.

I'm pregnant.

So that's fucking nuts that this principle is pregnant with her sixth grade students baby. Missus Madden wants the baby terminated, and they're like, why did you call Shane. She's like, I don't know. My husband's leaving me, my stepsone won't talk to me. I lost my home, my job, and the irony is all I've ever wanted is a baby of my own. And I guess it's like, be careful what you wish for, because now you have that baby and you have literally nothing else.

Do you think she's gonna keep the baby?

I do?

Cool?

Yeah, this episode like it's it's like I think it's sad because I like about this episode as I think that it, Like I really hate shows like that sexify having sex with your teacher, like making it like super hot, Like I don't I hadn't even watched a Teacher on Hulu, but I was like so annoyed that they made it. I'm like, how many more of these are we gonna make? We're gonna be like, there's already a couple other svus about this, like just making it like sexyed or cool.

To be in a relationship with your teacher.

And I think in this one they really show how it fucks Shane up and it's not good. It's not cool or hot to bang your principle or your teacher. Agreed, But let's take a little break and then, Lisa, I'm excited for you to take us through the true crime.

Okay, we're going to dig into this.

So October two thousand and two, the BBC News reports that a brain tumor caused a forty year old man to become obsessed with sex and molesting children. He was a married school teacher from the US who had no previous history of sexual offenses. He was married to his second wife and lived with her daughter, who was his stepdaughter.

Okay, so so far this is like exactly the same.

Yeah, so yeah, except I guess it's a guy, you know, maybe not a principle.

We don't know any information about him.

So basically, guys, it's like we assume this man was British because all the press and articles about it are British spelling and British publications and their rules are different, so you don't learn about his name or identity. But everything about him is like, it's an American guy. It's an American guid, it's an American guy. So I have

We have a lot of psycle.

I think we have like a lot of people that are in grad school for psych and stuff like that that listen to our podcast. So if you've studied this case and you know what's up with the American versus British representation. Let us know, because please, it's very confusing.

Basically, his behavior what first started happening is he was secretly visiting child poor and abuse websites, and then he started going to massage parlors, and then his wife found out all of this stuff, and then she found out that he was making sexual advances towards his pre pubescent stepdaughter, and then she found his collection of like child sexual abuse images, so she evicted his ass. She was like, get the fuck out of here. You're trying to like

Interesting.

Yeah, so this sounds more British like, instead of throwing someone in prison, it's like, how do we help this person not be a fucking pedophile? So yeah, so they put him on this medication. But he was found guilty by the courts of molesting children and entered a treatment program for convicted pedophiles. He was then kicked out of the program after asking the women there for sex. Constantly, he was making answers towards the staff and all these other clients, and he was just like a mess.

Okay, so they're like, you got to get out of here.

Sorry, can I just ask at this point, they don't know about the tumor.

They do, they do, they don't, Okay, they don't. You guys know, but they don't know yet.

So so yeah, he was making all these advances. So he was kicked out and that obviously breaks the arrangement, so he has to go to jail. So it's like this treatment or the jail. You're getting kicked out of treatment. But the night before he was supposed to go into prison, he went to the hospital and said, I have a giant headache and I'm.

Scared I'm going to rate my landlady.

What So he was also having issues with balance also, and that's what actually gave the psychologist centrologists like, okay, something might be up, because they were all very skeptical and thought that he was just trying to avoid his impending incarceration.

But they examined him because of the balance, and yeah, they did it.

So this was at the University of Virginia, and then in his medical history it said he had a head injury in nineteen eighty four and was knocked unconscious for two minutes. They don't know if that is connected to the tumor or not, or help grow it. But that's that just a tidbit. So yeah, like I said, the neurologist and everyone was suspicious of the man's motives. But there were things legit wrong with him, like his balance and you know, stuff like that. And he also had

What in the time leading up to the pre finding the egg pre finding the egg.

Yeah, like he would be chatting and like trying to fuck all these people at the treatment center while just like pissing himself. He couldn't write, like he seemed alliterate as hell and just like a whore, Like, yeah, so those are the things that kind of helped. Yeah, and now everyone knows if you start acting different, it might be your fernial lobe, right, check it out. So they removed the tumor, and in seven months he completed his

But in his words, he would say, like.

The pleasure principle overrode his restraint, and that's like what happened in the episode where she knew it was wrong but could not stop herself.

Yeah. Yeah.

Doctors said that this was the first no case of pedophilia caused by a tumor, and two of the doctors from the University of Virginia who treated him said that the tumors can cause people to become sex offenders, but like only if it's a sudden change, Like if you were always a pedophile, you can't blame the tumor. So it's like if you're always been a sexual deviant and creepy and like harassing waitresses, and then you're like, oh,

I think once you line up all of the pissing yourself, the handwriting, the like headaches, you know. I mean, my brother's a neurologists, and I feel like that's like most people start coming in with like headaches right like, and then you find out you know.

Yeah, my friend used to date this guy who had like a bulging eye and we would always make fun of him behind his back, and then we felt bad because it was a tumor pushing his eye out.

So go to the doctor. Guy, I'm glad you felt bad.

The Atlantic had a piece that said, we take certain drives for granted, like if you're a hetero or homosexual, or aggressive non aggressive children or adults, and we think it's free choice, but biology can fuck with that. So just another thing to be grateful for that you have control.

Over your action desires.

Yeah, so this is the spooky part where sudden pedophilia shows that there can be hidden drives and desires that are luring and undetected. So even like the frontal lobe controls behaviors and impulse control and all of that, but these things could still be in your brain and you just know not to act on them.

They're just like lying dormant.

Yeah, yes, so it could be in your brain and one tumor can leash shit all out of there, but it means it's in there. Like if it's not in there at all, your brain's not going to just suddenly do it.

Well, I think that's what they were saying with this woman is like because she had been molested, she had some you know, dormant issues that this tumor just sort of exacerbated and like, like you said, like unleashed.

Yeah, so when the frontal lobe is compromised, people with that becomes inhibited and wild behaviors can't emerge. And uh oh, it's just like hopefully you don't have fucked up dormant shit in your brain that's just gonna pop out, because that's my thing. Like did this guy like, yeah, we only use twenty percent of our brains. Who knows what's in there? Who fucking knows what's gonna pop out?

Yeah? Yeah.

And it's also scary because this isn't the same. But there's front do temporal dementia and this happens to older patients, but they just lose control of their frontal and temporal lobes and they just can't control any of these impulses and so they start violating social norms.

So it doesn't always have to be sexual.

People can just start shoplifting in front of people or getting naked in public and so on.

And you know, we're not.

All educated in neurology, so you're probably like, grandma's gone nuts, and you're.

Like, yeah, bring her in, But like it's just it's a lot.

This is crazy to look at, and these cases are difficult because they do end up in court often, but it's not the perpetrator's fault because the brain has degenerated and there's no remedy offered by medicine in a lot of these cases, when you're like, if it's not a tumor that they can remove and it's just damaged to those parts of your brain, they can't.

Do anything about it.

So you're not actually responsible for your actions, but there's nothing they can do to help you.

So what do you do with these people?

Well, I mean it's like CTE also, like you have ct from having like a lot of head trauma right that can affect your frontal lobe. And like you see athletes that have done things like where they've murdered people or had you know, cted image and you can't even diagnose that until they're dead.

Yeah, And as humans, we like to think like I don't gamble, so I'm strong willed. But not everyone is equally free to make socially appropriate choices. This isn't a morality olympic because you're not more or less in controller a better person or good if you're able to not engage in certain behaviors that are outside of our societal norms.

But some people don't even have the.

Option to make those choices, and so we should be more compassionate to people doing freaky shit in the streets.

Yeah, me personally, when I start gambling, I don't have that much self control.

Really, I didn't know you were a gamble at it.

Oh my god.

You'll see when we go to Vegas eventually. Oh my god. I'm like, just let me a one hundred dollars. I'll give it right back to you. Like, oh my god, I get.

Hell.

Yeah, what's your game? Roulette? That's okay, that's like the sillice of them all. Fuck do you ever win? Yes?

Okay, I'm a hold them girl, but I get my ass kicked.

Yeah exactly.

I'm not going to play these games where I have to like I sometimes I play the games like blackjack where I there are like people at the table that I'm like, what do you think I should do? And they're like stay. I'm like, okay, I just listened to their advice. Like I don't actually know what I'm doing with those games. But Roulette, I have my strategies even though it's a full game of chance and I'm completely delusional.

And the show hacks.

In one of the episodes, there's a scene where she gets a blackjack dealer to come to her house because she's so rich. She's like, I don't need to play with riff raff. This bitch comes here, and that's nice. Casinos are disgusting. People can smoke inside.

I love that she has a personal dealer and she just plays blackjacket home.

Oh amazing.

And this is not based on this episode, but just something I'd like to add is there's another case of a man in August nineteen sixty six, Charles Whitman, who out of nowhere murdered thirteen people, wounded thirty two more like a full blown rampage murdering strangers, murdered his mother, stabbed his wife to death in her sleep, and then killed himself, and the medical examiner found a giant tumor in the front of his head.

Oh my god.

So he was like an upstanding citizen and then out of nowhere, one tumor and so much damage.

Yeah.

So the sociologist, doctor Sarah Good, she works with people who are at risk of turning thought into action, and most therapists don't work with these types of clients. But she basically believes there has to be a better way we can treat medical treat pedophiles medically.

And this is controversial. I don't even know if I believe.

In this, but she said an important aspect of pedophilia is sometimes people will realize they're a pedophile and they're not happy about it. You know, they're horrified, they're ashamed, they're grossed out there and there's nowhere they can reach out for help. There's multiple episodes on SVU based on this, and so you know, she's just like, there should be a place where people can go to get help on this before they do anything illegal and like damage people's lives.

So that's just something to think about.

But I don't know, Yeah, SV you really like just grabbed this one straight from this well. We talked to Neil Berr about this, like he read about this person and that's when he came That's how he came up with that idea for this episode.

So and then I was on a flight and I watched a documentary called Crazy and Not Insane, and so randomly while working on this, I was on a flight and this happened to be one of the options on Delta. But doctor Dorothy Lewis could give Michael bad In a run for his money because obsessed with her.

I am like fully in love with her.

But she is kind of a revolutionary in terms of like neurology and brain stuff and attributing it to killers and diagnosing multiple personalities and just like that, there's more two criminals than just like bad.

They're not just bad, They're not just crazy. There's like more to it.

And it's kind of like in the show how she was predisposed to have these thoughts because she was molested and so a lot of criminals like have horrific childhoods. Yes, and then their frontal lobe that's fucked with, they're scarring all of it comes out, and so she was like laughed off the stand and not respected and really hated for a while in her career and now she's like a badass bitch.

So if you're flying Delta anytime soon, check that out.

Yeah, because it's brain damage and predisposition, like both of those twogether, and so she was able to, like she would meet clients and murders she's worked with Ted Bundy, she just wanted to see deeper within them.

And so say what the name of the thing was crazy not insane. Yeah, doctor Dorothy Lewis, we love her. We stand. Oh it's on HBO Max.

So if you want to just watch it, it's on HBO Max or HBO on Demand or whatever.

Awesome.

Well, thank you for taking us through that extremely interesting crime.

I'm very interested in that. And we'll be right back with our very special guests. Okay.

Our next guest is a classic character actor. You've seen him in so many movies, TV shows, movies like Henry Fool An American Splendor. He's been in the Office, Homeland, and he plays an iconic character Arthur Tach in Difficult People, one of my favorite shows. But you may know him more recently as Wade Donato in Head check out our interview with James Orbanniac.

We are very thrilled you might be one of our first Red Herrings that we've had on.

Yes, yes, very exciting, an essential part of the procedural.

Yeah, we obviously wanted to talk to your character. Is this is a classic episode. A lot of people have asked us for this episode, and your character is just like the classic red herring which we love. Like you're putting cameras into bathrooms and you're a Europhiliac.

I looked it up. You're a Europhiliac your character.

Which is interesting because my real last name is Urbaniak, which is very similar to you your Opheliac. So I was meant to play the role clearly.

Yes, for sure. So what did you think when you first got this script where you're.

Like, okay, I thought this is so me, not in terms of acting, I may add not real life though, who knows, but yeah, it's funny.

I have.

Played many Red Herrings on procedurals. I've been on a lot of procedurals. They are the bread and butter of the working actor.

As you know, we noticed, Yeah, you've been on a lot.

But I have sort of played a gallery of oddballs, freaks, sweirdos, pervs, occasionally really bad guys and then occasionally just unpleasant people. I'd say he's a bad guy, though he's not the primary BEG guy obviously, he's the classic red hiring who

How did you react when you found out that Amy Siedaris was your sister?

And then how did you feel working with her?

I thought it was delightful.

Did you know her in advance?

No, I don't think i'd met her before, but she's a lovely person. And then literally, like a couple of years ago, I was on at Home with Amy Sedaris playing a funny characters to one off, and we had a little reunion. I'd run into her a couple of times since then, but I thought that was rather good casting. I think I think we land as brother and sister for some stranger. Completely, it's a funny Amy role because she's really playing it straight. It's not like I co meet a character.

And she's just kind of like so desperately, like I don't know what to do.

My brother's into this weird shit I just see and she lives on my couch.

She reveals a little bit about her like we had Apparently we both had a messed up childhood. She sort of alludes to that without being too specific, So she's trying to make excuses for me.

Speaking of working with other people, how was it getting shoved by Elliott Stabler and screamed at by Olivia Benson?

Well, I got to say dreamation.

So we're shooting on the sound stage where they have their offices and the holding cell set. So mister Maloney is, yeah, grabbing, and he pushing me against the bars. You know, going why didn't you you saw this happening? And you didn't tell anybody?

You know?

And they said cut and they went the bars are bending. So it was wooden bars painted black movie magic and I'm I'm a skinny guy. I don't weigh a lot. So Maloney's pushing me against these bars and they're bending, and I thought, now, wait a minute. First of all, how long has this show been on the air. Couldn't mister Wolf just you don't need all iron bars? Just got like five of them for these close ups that won't bend against a scrawny character actor. But then they

Was he shoving you hard?

No, no, no, just pushing me against some thin wooden dowels painted black and they bent a little bit against my massive back muscles. But he's a lovely guy, and then it's funny. I worked with him again. I did a pilot which didn't become a show, but I did a comedy pilot because as you know, he's great at really scary drama and he's also really great at comedy.

Yes, we love him and wet hot Amon summer like he's he's.

So fucking funny. And I did a comedy with him where we had like a little moment together that was really fun. So yeah, through the years, when gets reunited with one's law and order actors.

Did you notice that he had a juicy booty way back then and you were ahead of the curve or you sho oh No.

I was aware that it was a workplace environment. I was very ahead of the curve in terms of correct behavior. Seventeen years ago.

One of my other favorite shows of all time is Sex and the City. And you do play another fetish.

Another fetishy guy, not necessarily legally dubious, but perhaps morally dubious. Yes, yeah, I am the foot fetishist shoe salesman in season two. Very early season two name Buster named Buster, which is a funny because Buster of course Buster Brown, which I think it's a little joke on shoes. And then my Law and Order SVU character is named Wade, which I've always thought was perhaps a water related pun since season two Urine and they named him Wade, So I don't know.

Now.

I just remember it was two and it wasn't quite the monolith it had become yet it had only been on one season. I think it was popular. I remember I got HBO after I got that gig so I could watch it. And it was directed by the independent film director Alison Anders, who's made some great features and was just doing that in TV as like a one off, you know. And I remember putting a shoe on Miss Davis and her gently suggesting that the way that actual shoe guys put shoes on, you know, you want to

Well, another one of our favorite shows, also New York based, Difficult People.

I mean, thank you, yeah, and that actually so. I was a very old friend of Julie Klausner's. I've known her for years.

Who I've met Julia a couple of times, and I'm a huge fan of hers. I just always think she thought she was so smart and funny, and I've read her book and love her.

Well, and I thought she was very smart because she casts me, if you'll note, as a non weirdo, non person, you are like the stable boy in terms of the universe of that show. I think I'm the most normal character, or of the nicest. He's the most grounded, Arthur.

He's so funny, and the little nicknames he has.

For her, everybody loves the nicknames funny.

Such a funny runner, Liza.

I believe you wanted to ask this question about Difficult People?

Oh please?

Yeah? How is it working with the Bassett Hounds?

The Vasset Hounds were fun. Now, of course in real life Julie has cats, but I guess she felt masset hounds are very theatrical. They're kind of funnier than cats. I gets the basset hounds were fun. There was a trainer who was a very quiet, intense man who would just stand there, you know that bartender stare when they're really busy and they're not really looking at you, and they're very deliberately like like a horse with blinders on. That's what he was like. He was so focused on

Okay, so you have been in a bunch of these fun New York shows. But if you were to go back to ask for you, what's a role you'd want to play? You've played the weird even well, you're you're a feeling this is crazy, ladies. But I have never played a lawyer. I don't think I've ever played a lawyer on a show.

I love wearing a suit. I love wearing a suit on camera or on stage. I want to you know, objection leading. I want to be one of those guys. Yeahn I could see as played a judge on The Good Wife. He was a young, dashing judge obviously, Yeah, yeah, cool judge, and I was like, wait, I'm going straight to judge. I want to be lawyer. So I would want to be a lawyer on like any procedural.

Actually, do you have a preference on if it's a defense attorney or a DA No?

No, And actually, in my tradition, i'd want to press be defending a bad person.

Uh, I see it, I see it happening. Yeah, yeah, I kind of one of the girls from casting at SU does listen to the podcast we do DM Sometimes.

It's been a long time since toilet Boy, so no one's going to remember I'm you know, and hey, maybe toilet boy turned it around and became an attorney. Changed his name, makes.

Sense, right, Yeah, got out of jail, Yeah, I got it.

Good behavior, good behavior.

I was going to say, I don't know if you know this, James, but we are both virgos.

Yes, I sure am.

And we just saw a post online recently, and so many serial killers.

A lot of killers are virgos anything else.

I don't follow the astrology that closely, even though I am an actor who lives in la But aren't they aren't. Virgos supposed to be kind of precise and have certain organizational and organize which is ironic because I am in certain ways. But I'm also kind of a slob in general. I really had to learn how to be neat when I started living with people like my wife. But but

Yeah, he knows exactly the time code. It's a lot.

Then they read from his notebook and he's like describing the rear end of one of the unfortunate victims. And then he says, marigold yellow. He's got specific shades of urine color. Yeah, I mean, he's a disgusting person, but you got to give him that. He was a virgo and a virgin totalo ful verge. He's never had sex.

That's a gold star. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you have anything coming hour that you're working on that you like to share with us?

Yeah? Plug it up.

Oh I'm in it. There's a Netflix movie called Things Heard and Scene or is it Things Seen and Heard ghost Story?

Who else is in that? Amanda cried yes, and is Michael o'ke.

Michael O'Keeffe is in it, and Karen Allen's in it.

We interviewed and Michael O'Keefe, Caroen Allen, Amanda Seyfried, James Orbaniac all s.

An upstate New York movie. It's it's set in the Hudson Valley, very beautiful part of the country, as you know. And I have a little part in that. I play Racy Horn's husband, Racy Horn from from from Medical so yeah, who is an old buddy of mine as well.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a it's a fun kind of ghost story and it's said in the eighties, So Ray and I are playing kind of baby boomer hippie generation people who are sort of landed in the Hudson Valley. I have a scene ry smoke pot, so that'll be out there.

Kara, tell him the story with you and your husband.

Okay, so this is this goes to this goes to a story. Do you know Carol, Carol's really good friend Mindy Tucker.

I do, indeed, And she took a great photograph of me, as she's taken of many people.

Quick side note, Carol is a mutual friend of me and James is from New York. I'm just saying one time she was like explaining to me how how exciting it was to have like come from Alabama to New York.

And she's like, I just can't believe. I used to watch like.

The movie Henry fool and now I'm taking photos of James or Bainiac.

And she's got this real She's.

Got this real, very sick Alabama action.

So she he love my husband and I who I think you've met as well. My husband. His name is Jared Logan. He's another comedian.

He he and I would always just say James or Baniac like around the house in her accent. And then what he started doing is out of nowhere, sending me pictures of you from your IMDb on text and just going urbaniac attack.

So we have a funny little joke about you in my house, and.

I just wanted to tell you I love it.

That if you look at my husband's and my text history, it's riddled with photos of you.

James or maniac.

All right, Lisa, post mortem time, what have we learned? I mean, if you are starting to slur your your signature and feel very attracted to thirteen year olds.

Go get checked out. You need to go get a brain scan.

Yeah, it's wild that this could go undetected for forever, if you know, since there's not actually like physical medical problems, Like if you start acting different, definitely do something about it. Or if your friend starts acting different, call them out. Don't just be like, oh, all right, she's acting like a weirdo. Maybe, you know, like you have to help each other out.

Yeah, I think it. Also, like this episode really got.

Me thinking about just like we need to protect our heads in general, like with sports and like with any kind of like when you have like a traumatic brain injury and stuff like just all that stuff needs to be looked at because it leads to bad behaviors sometimes like.

Well, yeah, so my friend just got her driving permit and she took a photo at the DMV and it was a photo of like a person's body driving a car. But then it was a drawing of a watermelon and it said protect your melon, and she wrote like, aren't our heads like enough? Like why does it have to be a melon? Like I think it's compelling enough to protect our heads. You don't have to play any game with this, but okay, yeah, protect our heads. I don't

But of course, of course, you can also just get a tumor in your head, of course, But I'm just saying in general, you hear about CT and all this like horrible shit because people just let their noggins get bashed in all the time and it's not doesn't lead to anything good.

Also, don't embarrass your child by being an alcoholic in public at their sporting events. Yeah, Like it sucks to be probably you know, suffering and being an alcoholic, but keep it off the playing field because it'll ruin your kids forever.

Yeah.

As much as I love a road soda, I love drinking outside out of a you know, innocuous drinking vessel, like some kind of plastic solo cup.

Don't do it at your kids' games. Now you can. You can have a few drinks. You can't drink absolutely, that is like social.

If your kids have two three softball games and one Saturday afternoon, you can have some white clause at the game.

We're talking full on. You just sit and take it too far. Yes, this is for alcoholics only.

Unfortunately, if you're someone that does not struggle with alcoholism, you can get drunk as long as you behave I just we both have a friend. I'm like, I'm very close to the person whose mother is an alcoholic and him being embarrassed constantly by her in public, like years of therapy because he loves his mom and people liked her, but like the embarrassment and covering for her and people pleasing and like it really affected his personality and how

On your couch and yeah, yeah, no, no, no no.

I think you can also set some boundaries with a sibling, like, look, I know that I am the pre eminent New York City pecam purveyor, but I can't give them to you to do that with them, Like I'm sorry, you can't use your sister's talent to feed your I mean, I want to say hobby, but that's kind of like it's not really a hobby. Is It's just a criminal It's just a criminal hobby. Now when I look at my PM, always like Marrigold yellow.

Oh my god, me too.

I've been being I've been like, I wonder what James Urbaniac would feel about this color of p or his character Wade. But also, even if you are doing something illegal and something terrible happens, you need to get over yourself and help you said it an anonymous something like.

Say something say something, for fuck's sake, come on.

Always, you know, it's always like, but I had coke in my pocket, so I didn't want to and it's like no one cares about your cocaine and someone is like choking to death.

You know, like right, get over yourself. This kid is being abused. Anonymous tips are important.

Also, if you're a kid that gets to be in Central Park, you better fucking enjoy it.

So cool.

Okay, Now let's get into our what would Sister Peg do? Segment, our weekly segment where we give you some more resources or organizations that can inform what you learned about in today's episode. Today we want to highlight an organization called Male Survivor. It is a five A one C three a nonprofit, public benefit organization committed to preventing, healing and eliminating all forms of sexual victimization of boys and men

So check them out and then next week.

We will be covering the episode I Deserve Some Loving too.

Yes, that is a war and light year.

So if you want to count those letters or I'll tell you it's season twenty one, episode fourteen again always on Hulu, Peacock, your local library, spend some cash on Amazon, get a collector's DVD, and we will see you next week. That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.

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And to our sound engineer and personal hero Analie Snilson, and to.

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