Haystack w/ Ashley Williams

Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

These are our stories.

Done done, Yay, that's messed up. At SVU podcast, we have another episode coming at you.

My name is Lisa Traeger.

And I'm Kara Klank And as you very well know, we recap an episode of USVU. We talk about the true CRIMEA is based on and we interview a fabulous guest. And today it is no different. We have a great guest and before that we just like to catch up and chat and talk about what's going on in the world.

Nothing good, No, that is a couple good things, but mostly.

Clouded in disasters that I disassociate from.

Yeah, are you in them? Are you in the like?

I was like literally on hysteria a few weeks ago, and that was the whole topic, is like how do you handle like the never ending doom cycle?

And they were like, Kara, how do you?

And I was like, uh, like I don't know. I just I dip in, but then I you know, I get out. I have to like focus on other stuff.

I feel like, I, Yeah, if we, if any of us actually focused on it, we could maybe sacrifice our comfort for one second to maybe put our asses on the line to make change. But we're not going to do it. So we're going to keep listening to this pod and that's that. So yeah, keep driving through the drive throw and listening and no judgment here.

I saw Scream last night, and oh Scream six.

Yeah.

I think my new thing in life is eating dinner at the movie theater and going to the movies. I thought it was gonna be going to Jumbo's clown Room, but it's actually seeing horror movies and having a great.

Great time.

And I'll tell you one is gonna save you a lot more money. I think it's gonna save you a lot. Well, no, not dinner in a movie, dinner at the movie at the movie, yeah, dinner at the movies. Yeah, the Drumbo's clown room. Especially especially if you see somebody like, uh, oh.

You know, someone made fun of me. They're like, it's not even an actual stroke club. They're like, what's gonna happen to you when you graduate? But I was just messaging with who I went to the movies with, and I was like, do you think people in line could tell we were stoned? And he was like, I think helicopters in Highland Park. I mean, but I did have a good Yeah, Scream was okay, it was it was fine, it was good.

It was a good time.

I went last year and saw Screen five, but only because it was someone's birthday where they rented out the whole theater and it was like lie down seats and I was like, okay, Like I don't know the Scream movies. I never really the first ones are awesome. I actually possibly still own the Scream two.

Soundtrack on CD.

But yeah, I used to like them at the very beginning, and then I kind of like fell off and then I saw five. But I don't know if six is calling my name. But Nev Campbell not in this one.

Not in this one.

They do reference that she decided to protect her family, and it's like, not get involved.

When in real life she was protecting her bank account. I feel like she was like upset that she wasn't getting paid enough?

Right?

Oh, is that what it was? I think that's what it was.

I think they were just respecting her, like she like I think she was like I am this fucking franchise and they were like no, and they just didn't give her enough.

I think, well, yeah, there are a part where they're like, once it's a franchise, you actually don't matter, and like legacy characters can die and like no one is safe is like part of the yeah kind of you know, sass of this. But Hayden Panitaire svu Alum, she makes an appearance. Yes, she's an FBI agent, Herbie yeah.

Yeah.

And Dylan Dylan mcrooney McDermott, I don't know, Dermott mulrooney or Dylan McDermott, not Dylan McDermott, Dylan mccrooney, Dermott mulrooney, Dylan, he will not not call him Dylan. It's the guy from best Friend's wedding, Dermott mulrooney.

Yeah.

But there's also another guy that looks like him that's not him, that is gay. But this guy is not gay, I feel, I mean he could be, but you know love, I mean.

There was like an SNL skitch that was called Roy or Dylan McDermott.

Yeah, but I know.

But then there's the third guy too, who's in the twist.

I feel from my best friend's wedding.

No, just in the genre of faces of that of the man, not in the name, but it is my best friend's wedding.

Guy, he is in it. Yeah. Wait yellow jackets too. Fuck? Oh, seame we have yellow jackets coming up? Baby.

Oh I did do something ethically, like Karen, I think, oh, what did you do?

We went to A nine or an eight forty five.

It was like, towards the end of the evening, I had been looking forward all evening to the popcorn. It wasn't fresh, so I said, well, you pop a fresh batch. And they're like, it would be a ten to fifteen minute wait, and I said, I'll wait. I did end up tipping, but I did make them pop fresh popcorn at the end of the night.

Listen, you tipped, and you sounds like you asked nicely. I don't think that's very karen ish. You didn't ask to talk to a manager. You weren't like belittling someone.

No, no, no, I was pretty apologetic, but I was just like, I'm not eating gutter corn.

Yeah, you've been waiting all day and it tastes like styrofoam.

Fuck that, I get it. I wanted fresh corn, fresh fresh way. Did you see the ads for the nude Little Caesars where the crust is a corn on the cob and it comes with the liquid butter side.

It's over. It's over.

Mediocracy has become real life. But what the fuck are you talking about? There's a corn cob crust.

No, but wildly.

I DMed it to our friend Lauren, who's obsessed with corn, and she did not order that. But she goes, holy shit, I did just postmates myself corn on the cob.

Okay, so I just googled it and it says, no, Little Caesar's Corn cob cross Pizza isn't real.

Oh okay, it didn't make sense, Like, I don't know how it could be a vehicle for crust, but I believed it. I believed it. I believed it. So is that even more idiocrity?

That's according to some website called penlive dot com. I don't know if that's real. But then Boing Boing says, Little Caesars introduces corn crob cross pizza with two leaders of liquefied butter.

Yeah, that's the most silent we've ever been on the pod. The liquid butter put us into a full pause. We didn't know what to say.

We've never let there be a second of dead air on this podcast, and we just let liquid butter ooze in between us.

Yeah, it seems like the.

Internet, I mean, boing boing, It does not have a definitive answer. If you are work in marketing at Little Caesar's or you know the truth, please let us know if but I'm it says it has the Internet split, and it also has Kara and Lisa's split. Not like we're on different sides. We just do not know whether this is real.

Well, I have been, you know, my new thing is, I've been dropping off laundry only twice. But there was a family enjoying a Little Caesar's in their car, and I was like, you guys have figured out the world.

Fuck.

Yeah, Lisa was at the playground with me and my kids like last week, and this little girl walks in with like a little Hot and Ready packet and Lisa goes there she is, that's the MVP of this playground.

I guess I'm really a fan of Hot and Ready in public places. Yeah, I'm really impressed. Wait, but we do love yellow jackets. It is back, It is back baby. The last five seconds of the first episode rocked my world.

Now, if you haven't seen it, if you haven't watched yet fast.

Forward, we don't we don't even have to go into details about it. I don't think even think we have to spoil it to be able to talk about it. It just like that little moment was like, this is why I'm watching Yellow Jackets, because it was like okay, okay, okay, okay, and then I was like, oh, there she is.

There's Yellow Jackets.

Like it just was like shocking, surprising, awesome, and why I'm watching Twisted.

I loved it. Yeah.

I also like the way that they figured out a way for a character who passed away to still be kind of in the show a little bit.

Well yeah, because she on the red carpets and Stuff's like they tell me, I'm out, I'm out, I'm out.

I'm pissed, but I'm out, and you're right.

You know, they let her, They let her in a little Yeah, they figured it out a little way.

So keep getting her SAG insurance. I think people are meming that.

You know, when Tysa shows up at her son's school and she's just holding the dog with like a wild smile on her face.

Yeah, what's the meme.

I don't really know, but people are just like meming her with like the little dog like you know me when blank happens or whatever.

Like it's just such a funny like visual.

Yeah, it really like picked up. It feels like right where it left off. Like I don't it doesn't feel like a huge jump.

I don't know, No, no time has jumped. Also, I'm ready to join Lottie's program. Her speech up top, I go, you know what if I would drop five grand I would go, I would go for a you know, a day program you except for you. I was like that right Lotties thing. I was like, get me in there, Yeah, get me in there. But I also am into Misty's detective prowess skills.

She's good at it. Yeah, she's on Reddit trolling the forums.

I think that's where Elijah Wood's gonna come in, right, that was his voice in a voiceover.

Oh yeah, Like I.

Think he's gonna be like a fellow detective q amateur detective.

Because I want her to have a friend I want her to have friendship, you know what I mean? She deserves it. Well, she doesn't, she's bad. There's an interview with Christina Ricci and she goes, yeah, everyone that's like into Misty, please you need help.

This is a dangerous person. This is not someone.

You want in your life, and like, please, this is not a good sign if like you're connected to this woman.

I know, but there is like something about Christina Ricci that is like, I don't know, I'm not scared of Misty even though she is scary and she okay, wait, clarification question when she injected that cigarette with whatever the fuck? Did she kill that woman or just like incapacitate her or like.

Carara please, so of course that woman is dead. She's dead, Okay, Okay, she's a witness. She can't be trusted out. I know, I know.

I just didn't know if she gave her something that turned her into like a vegetable or you know what I mean.

Like it seem like Lisa Hockstein right now when the husband is cheating and she's like, wait, you think they had sex.

I'm just I don't know if my marriage is over yet, Lisa. I don't know you think they had sex? A month ago? Everything was fine? That's so good.

Like when someone's being obtuse to just be like, are you like Lisa Hawkstein.

Do you think they had sex? Is so fun? Funny?

Oh my god, of course she murdered that bitch. Wait, I did have a fun celebrity moment. Okay, So I have been I have been meeting Caroline Ray, I would say fifteen times at least, like I'm obsessed with her, you know what I mean, Like I've been.

I love Caroline Ray. I can't get enough of her.

And every time I meet her, I'm always like I never am like, oh we've met. I'll keep reliving the fantasy as many times, like I'll don't worry Darling's However, many times she wants right, she.

Never remembers you no, and it's totally fun.

You know.

One time, I think she could sense my energy because I think I've said it on the podcast. Jackie Harry was there too, and she's like, yeah, she like hit her and was like let's let's go over here, Like they like walked away from me, Like the energy was just too desperate on my part. So then finally I was opening Eleanor Kerrigan if you see her special, she taped it to the comedy Store recently, and so I

I was like, what does that mean, show us the cat from Sabrina the teenage Witsch.

Salem.

Yeah, like bring the cat.

They thought it was like a like a phrase, like a turn a phrase. I was like, what the hell, No, it was like, girl, we love you, like like what.

Game do you want us to play? But I think I've said it on this podcast too.

But I met her once like ten years ago, and like I loved her so much, we had had a conversation.

Keep meeting her. Yeah it'll be like the first time every time.

Never remember this, or she doesn't remember you after all these times. This was so many years ago.

I brought her.

Up before I've hosted. I mean I have been bringing her up on stage. I've been at multiple coasts. I've been at festival, I've brought her up at Montreal. I mean, no, no Tin, no shade. I think to our generation, she we all get this excited. So I understand her point of view of like, Okay, these women just like they all just seem too excited. I don't know, yeah, but

I just can't wait until I get to meet her again and have I can't wait to get into where you are, Like I want to be on meeting fifteen already, Like I'm only on I've only had one, so like, yeah, I need to get up there.

I feel like I saw my own Scanda all with my own eyes. I was in the back of a comedy show and there was like a table of four and it was like a guy with his legs wide open, and the the girl in front of him was like in between his leg opening, and then the girl diagonal to him on the other side of the table. Every time she would laugh, she would turn around to look back at him to like is it okay to laugh? You know, like and she kept like she just kept

Why are people in between each other's legs at comedy shows too?

I don't know. You don't like that at all? I don't. I think that feels really weird.

That didn't bother me as much as the three connecting.

And then who was the fourth guy out?

He's just sitting there like another girl, three girls a guy and not no pizza, no snacks of the college.

Three girls, a guy, no pizza place. Okay, So I hope it's not just a girl who's just like got misogyny. So ingrained in her that she has to look at the man at the table to see like if he's laughing at the thing so she can laugh at.

It, and that it's not unset. That's the first thing I said on stage. I go, honey, I've been watching you this whole time Feminism's happened. Stop looking at him, I go, stop looking at him, I go. You can laugh on your own, honey, that's the first thing I said. I was like appalled, but she continued to do it. She continued to do it.

It was wild. Wow. Okay, guys, so I know Casey just gave us the flag. We got ustart the episode. But really quickly.

I know a lot of you have been asking us when is our show at the Moontower Comedy Festival, which is coming up at the end of April, and we.

Finally have a date.

It is going to be Friday, April twenty first, at eight pm at eight hundred Congress. That is the name of the venue in Austin, eight hundred Congress and it's part of the Moontower Comedy Festival. Now, for some reason, this fest has not gotten us a ticket link yet, but you know that the second that we get one, we're going to be throwing it up on That's messed

All right, we got Haystack Season eight, episode fifteen. You know what, I was just watching the there's a new three part I think I kind of fell asleep. But it's about the Malaysian airlines. Yeah, yeah, I heard about that. It is fucked up what happened and no one knows. I mean, it is so fucked up. But the reason I thought of it is because there's someone says it's not finding a needle in a haystack, like it's finding the haystack. Like they can't even find the haystack. Yes, yeah,

Start. I was wrong.

The bitch is choking herself in a game of charades. So that's that's the gag of it.

All yesterday, Rosie goes, let's play charades, and Jared goes, okay, and she goes, and he goes, No charades is quiet, she goes, this charade is loud.

It's like you are the craziest. So what was her charade?

She made up this animal called like a paploma or something, and it's an animal that screams.

So she was being that.

I wonder what it looks like. You should have made her draw She's drawn it. She's drawn it. We have what does it look like? I mean, it looks like a kid who just learned how to draw shapes. It's like it's crazy. She has it drawn on a tiny little easel canvas. I'll take a picture of it and I'll show it to you. But is it on Instagram? But is it named after Paloma the Cocktail?

Well, no, it's not a pimp. It's like a pimp. It's like a pine pinopola or something like.

I don't know.

She made up the name and it's escaping me right now. But that's what her charade was. Her lauxurie so cute.

So the beard, the ginger beard, is guessing. We open up on a whole gaggle of people and they're shouting out guesses. One of the women is like, wait, fuck, did you hear something? And everyone's like, shut up, you dumb bitch. But she walks to another room to check what she heard. As they keep playing. She walks into a baby's room and the window is open and you know the mobile, the mobile.

What is it? Mobile mobile?

Yeah, is swinging. I used to love making those in school. That was like my favorite project. It's swinging. And she checks the crib and oh no, the baby is gone. She screams, Garrett, Garrett. We cut to Mike Doyle aka o'haller and friend of the pod, and he's filling in Maloney in the halls. So the baby is Kendall Kazlowski, thirteen months. The mother put him down at six and the baby is missing at ten when she checked on him, the window is open, but there are the window has

If she can help in an interview.

She says yes, please, and Craigan says no, you don't leave the desk until you review every paper on the Judkins appeal. So Stabler's like please, like I need help, and Craigan's like, no, shut up, save it and sends Elliott in alone, and I don't get why she's in trouble and on desk duty. And I kept being like, oh, this is around the brother's DNA this and that, but that happens towards the end of this episode. So I

But what's going on here?

Like loophole you said was two episodes before the episode right before maybe she just went I'm sure she's went again ahead, I'm telling you she didn't do Yeah.

No, well loophole she gets like almost fucking carbon monoxideed to death.

Yeah.

But then at the end of that episode, they march on into a big wigs office to demand no insurance money. Yeah, so she's up and kicking. The next one is the Princess Bride guy. You know, he's like the defense attorney for gangs and stuff. Yeah, and the son like sees who kills So like, she doesn't do anything shady. The brother she does something shady at the end of this episode, So I don't or maybe she really just has a ton of paperwork for this case, but I don't get it.

Says also there's the episode dependent is the one right before this, and it's where they question a confused young woman about an attack on her parents and Stabler puts his career on the line when he goes too far. That's not her, I know, That's what I mean. I really so weird. All right, Well, I'm sure everyone will.

Tell us because if it's her, like if it's her having a baby or whatnot, then they could.

Have I don't know.

But also this episode there's no Munch and there's no Fit in this whole episode. Yeah, it's a Craigan maloney so like it was it passover. I like, I don't understand how everyone was.

The episodes are so like standalone that it's weird that they wouldn't even like put a reference to what it is that she's doing wrong or done what she's in trouble for, or.

Maybe this was this huge case she has to do paperwork for. But they should have made it more clear. But also the fact that Munch and Finn are not going to be in this episode at all, not even not even like go do desk duty zero, It's it's wild. We never really see Craigan out and about maybe Dan Floric was like, I'm sick of being a crossing guard.

I need to work.

You know.

Maybe he was demanding some more fun, but whatever, we're back. So Maloney's in there with the mom with Ashley Williams, and Ashley Williams is smoking a cigarette inside. So okay, yeah, I'm obsessed, obsessed, but her child is missing. Elliott right away asks if she has any idea where her ex husband could be, and she's like, check the nearest. Oh, t he'd be. He's a compulsive better. So they were together one year, nine months and three days. She says

Rude?

He does need Olivia in there. She got pregnant. She didn't want to raise a child alone. She did think Dan would be a good father, and he was for a bit, but he just loved the tracks. Maxing out her credit cards and then he casts out all the bonds her mom bought for Kendall. So he contacted her last week desperate for money. She didn't have any. He asked to call her parents and ask for money. Okay, lol. She told him to piss off. And he told her she would be sorry. Stabler stares at her and says

If you get it, you get if you know, you know.

But he throws the If you don't know, it's Louandela's ups from Office of New York.

And if you don't know, we're also gonna tell you.

Who.

He throws the bag in the water. Maloney screams no. Maloney jumps in. It's dark as hell were other cops scream to ems.

There's a baby in the water.

He can't find a bag in the river since it's pitch black, so Maloney is now stopping wet grabbing Pablo Shriber by the neck, going what that was your son? And he's like what wait, what about my son? Maloney is shirtless, by the way, and with a towel over his neck, so this is fun. A Uni tells Maloney they got something. He walks to the bag. It's not a baby, it's cocaine eight kilos Pablo, But why wouldn't Pablo just be like, that's my son is not in

You have to.

Oh my god, I have to make this delivery. If I don't make the delivery, they're gonna kill my son. A. Maloney's like, we're not giving you the drugs back.

Are you knew?

Like?

And then Maloney's like, tell me where you know?

Bernardo is last chance and he holds the coke in his hand, and right as he is about to talk, Pablo caves and I mean about to walk, not talk, And Pablo caves and says in his in his stash house in the.

Bronx, And then there's a raid.

People in bras no shirts with masks working in the cocaine factory and is this for safety or so no one steals the drugs. I think it's honestly, so you don't like inhale cocaine and get fucked up, not the masks nakedness.

Yes, yes, I think that's about theft.

Yes, sorry, dealer is just well yeah, this isn't Cocaine Bear.

Was obsessed in Cocaine Bear when the kids were like, I've done cocaine?

Have you done cocaine? And then they just eat cocaine and it tastes so bad.

Cocaine Bear like when the coke is going into like the cocaine Bear is so expressive and he reminds me of Deep Blue Sea. Were you into that movie? Were the smart sharks? I never saw that? Oh we should watch that. Deep Blue Sea is like llll cool Jay and a big crew of people, but it's like extra smart sharks in like scary.

It's like, you know, did you see Megalodon? The meg? Yeah? Meg No? Oh see, I really love that genre.

I think X like like really smart sharper predators just like yeah, yeah, super predators.

I think I'm into.

But anyways, yeah, if you know any fun shark movies, I think I like it. It is upsetting my shark tattoo does not have sharp teeth. Okay, so the cocaine factory gets you know, I would say exploited, but rated. The dealer just says, lawyer, lawyer, he's a pro. And then Maloney does one of my favorite lines, like there's so much blow here. Your parole officer hasn't even been born yet. But maybe I can put in a good word with the judge if you tell me about Dan.

But the boy is not here, and then.

A RoboCop dressed officer relays that the dealer is like, no kids, I don't fuck with kids. Ammonia's like, listen, it's your lucky day. I don't care about your cocaine. I only care about the boy. And he's like, I don't do kids. Like leave me alone. He asks if white Dan was at the house last night, and he confirms that he was. The count was off, so they were redoing the packaging until ten pm, so Maloney has to tell the mom that it was not Dan Kazlowski.

You know what I mean? Yeah, I don't know how he settles all that, or they empathetic because it's like, okay, your son.

Is missing, Like I don't think drug dealers, I don't. I think drug dealers were like, where's my coke?

They don't care about your kid? Yeah? All right. So he's like, okay, help me out here.

Have you noticed anyone paying extra attention to you or Kendall recently? And she's like, yes, actually I felt someone was watching me. She would turn around and no one would be there. Sometimes a car would take, you know, turn disappear the corner. She thought she was paranoid or it was Dan. So she recaps her day from the day before he went missing.

She took Kendall to the park.

It started to rain, so they went to the movies, and then she picked up party snacks. So she makes a list of all the places and people from Maloney, Craign and Maloney talk to a movie theater worker who remembers her, and he's like, you rip tickets all day.

Why do you remember her?

And she's like, well, I said, you know, no noise baby policy if your baby acts up, you're at it here no refund. But the kid slept through the whole movie and she didn't notice anybody giving the baby attention or anything like that, and she's like, I actually didn't even see the baby. She had one of those plastic covers over it. And that's how I like babies, not seen or heard. So now they go talk to the babysitter and he's like, oh, that's a quiet baby.

That's the only reason I read the babysit.

And they're like, why did you need a babysit and he goes, well, Laura went to get food and wine for the party, so I came down to help. Craigan asked about the window. Was it open, and he's like, I actually never went in there. The baby was napping and Laura didn't want me to wake him up. So they go outside and they're like, okay, the baby isn goes so nobody saw the baby. So then they're like, wait,

Why are you here?

You should be out there, that's more productive, and Maloney's like, whatever happens started here, we got to make sure we don't miss anything. And then she starts yelling like what the fuck are you doing to my carpet? What are you doing to my house? And Maloney's like, wrong question, lady. A mother with a missing child would ask what more she could do to help not impede the investigation. Dramatic music plays. She gets what's being implied and she says,

No?

No, I have the sonograms in my bedside table. I don't have, like, I don't really have like a scrap book. I wanted to make albums for every year of their lives and I haven't done it yet, and Rosie's going to be four and two weeks, so I'm behind.

Well, I know you keep every little card and stuff, So yeah, I do keep their teeth.

I don't know.

Well, they haven't lost any yet, but I probably will. Yeah, I probably will. I didn't get to keep the sliver of oscars chip tooth that fell when he fell out of his white chair.

So I don't know why that shivers got it.

It's not where he would feel it.

It's like, so, Stabler and Craigan walk the streets talking shit while Stabler has a box of baby goods under his arm, and they see some press and it's Cindy Marino, who he calls the poor man's Giraldo, which is funny because Giraldo is not for the rich, you know, he's Heroldo. Yeah, Heraldo Heraldo. It felt wrong but I didn't know how. But also Heraldo is like the poor man's Oprah. Everyone's the poor man's Opra, Like yeah, it's like Heraldo is

I was like, that name is like hitting me in like in my heart. I love that.

So they're like, oh, it's your favorite, you know, so whatever. Cindy Marina wants juice and they're like, well it's your favorite. A grieving mother you love writing more than news.

Huh. They don't respect her. She's like, come on, give me something.

She's a crackhead first sad news, and Maloney says, I wonder how the baby's sonogram wound up in the garbage. Her gold hoops ass smile Maloney is now at Melinda Warner's asking for some science based evidence, but she's not finding anything from the goods. But it's not blood, it's strained peaches and she knows that from experience.

So wow, she has kids. I don't know if we've ever known that or.

Ever talked about that too. I was like, Oh, Melinda has a daughter. I just didn't never mentioned again before.

Ever just about the strained peaches, like has a dog named Pete, Pete. She has a husband, well the husband she mentions a few times, but I'm just saying, like we've had holiday dinners at the house, like we've had teen daughters dead on her slabs, like never mentioned, but all of a sudden right now.

There is also like how many problems has Ken had? How many problems has like Dicky and the Stabler kids. We can't get we can't get Melinda Warner's daughter in with like one issue, like a friend got attacked at a party.

Let's get her in here, let's cast her.

We know that her sister worked at SAX and we know the only thing we know about Melinda's daughter is she ate strained peace as a baby house to them, loved him. We don't even know where she went to. She could have just been like, oh, my girl goes to Hudson, like yeah, I should get her a rape whistle, like nothing. So we asks why she killed him and she's like same old story, abuse, accident, shaken baby, you

It's blonde, not brown.

Someone else was definitely on the fire escape and they're bringing it down to Melinda. Sibler goes, eh, it could be old, and Ryan's like, no, it can't be old. With all the rain, there's no way it's old. This is our first solid lead. Craigan interrupts. Cindy Marino is on TV with an interview with Laura. We see Laura on screen in the same green hoodie we've been seeing her in. She says, I heard a noise when she

Her own child on national television.

Oh Hallarin's like, well, who tips Cindy off about the sonogram? And Craigan slowly turns his head towards Stabler, Who's like I did with no guilt, Like I just really hate him.

Sometimes. He goes to visit her.

Her door's spray painted, baby killer and vandalize. He wants to talk to her. She is not answering. He bings on the door, It just opens, no answer. The candles are still lit. The candles are very important to her. The apartment is dark. He goes through the apartment, then sees her hanging on the chandelier. She has taken her own life with an extension cord. Thanks Stabler, great fucking work.

The devil, who are you? Who are you? Who's the Devil's little friend? That's you?

She says, I'm just doing my job. Somebody has to somebody has to ask the tough questions. Since the cops don't have the balls. He tries to get in her face, Craigan holds him back. Cut to Novak and Stabler in a walk and talk in the precinct hallways and her hair is flowing in the wind Beyonce style, gorgeous strawberry blonde. And she's like, you fucking knew she was enough unethical, garbage and sleazy and knew how she operated. He's like, I didn't mean for her to go that far. Fuck you, Elliott.

Okay, why not the father?

Yeah, he's the poor man's her Aldo, my queen.

I love Jenny Jones. She was my wheelhouse.

That was my I love Jenny Jones and Ricky Lake the most out of anyone of the daytime talk show hosts.

And I think some people would say Jenny Jones is a poor man's Sally Jesse Raphael, But to.

Each their own, Yeah, Sally Jesse, I would dabble in, but Jenny, that's where the bad teens were.

And I liked the teens and I liked Rickylake a lot too.

Oh yeah, Ricky Lake was I've like Jenny was like I have sex for a cheeseburger like that.

I liked that, Like yeah, like bad catch me outside.

Girls were like lined up outside the block at Jenny Jones, Like that's what was happening.

And then Ricky Lake was more like I hate my own race.

Oh really was that it? What was Ricky Lake or Makeovers? Maybe it was more makeover I don't remember, but I think Ricky had some wild people on. But you know, she was like twenty four when that show started, and that's what twenty four year olds looked like. Like that's the meme I saw there, Like that's what twenty four year olds looked and dressed like in the nineties.

Wait, what was the show the talk show where a girl was allergic to pickles and somebody like ran after her with a pickle on the show.

You're an insane person? That is drag race. That is a miss Cracker sketch. No, no, it is.

But yes, yes, but it's based on something else. There was one where it was like confront your fears. Yes, you're right, that is from drag Race, But there was one that was like confront your fears and they like truly ran after someone and she was freaking out on TV and I was like, this feels wrong, Like I wasn't laughing like I would. It is it is drag Race, No, but I think it's based on something drag racey is that shit case more?

He's saying it's more, Yes, who else?

And then doctor felt like Matteo Lane has a joke where he he calls all these people Oprah's horcruxes, and doctor Phil is one of her horre cruxes, and they're all bad, like anyone that Oprah really endorsed ended up being terrible, including Jenny McCarthy.

I think like I saw this article in New York magazine one time that was like too. The cover of it was to Oprah's sitting across from each other, and the article was all about how like Oprah, let Suzanne Summers come on the show and take seventy five pills and tells people that that's okay to be taking seventy five supplements a day when it's not like so I remember, like that was the first time there was like a.

Crack in the Oprah like armor to me.

Yeah.

The thing is she did she what started in the eighties ended in the two thousands. Of course, there's gonna be a couple of bumps in the road, yes, But I think even in her later days, she gave platforms to bad people with John Science, Yes.

Doctor she created. Isn't she Rachel Ray too?

Yeah?

But is Rachel Ray bad or just annoying? She's just untalented, I think. Yeah. So we're back.

We're back from the horcrux discussion of daytime television talk shows. So anyways, so they're all like, why didn't Laura tell us that Dan is not the father? And they're like, well, maybe she didn't know that, And Novak's like, well, I'm sure the real bio daddy did know that, and he's the one that took the baby.

So now what.

So now they go to Dan Kazlowski to find out if he knew he was raising another man's child. And I haven't mentioned for some strange reason, but Dan Kauzlowski is Pablo Schreiber like this, Oh yeah, you were.

Calling him that before. But you didn't actually call attention to it. It's Pobla aka porn's dash for Orange is the new Black, one of the pokemon we hope to catch one day.

But also William Lewis William Lewis.

So yeah, so he cannot He can't believe Kendall isn't his. Everyone always said, oh he has your eyes, which proves everyone's a fucking liar, and all your babies are ugly except for Kara's. He asks if he has any idea who the father could be, and he's like, well, you know, I was hooking up with other girls. I never asked if she was hooking up with other guys. One month into dating, she said she was pregnant. It was mine and that's that. Saber's like, you never doubted it, and

I just didn't get that vibe from her at all.

No, they're playing chandals, Yeah, just playing charades with like a little weed and wine, like I don't know.

Yeah, she seemed pretty wholesome.

So mostly in Attica, and Stabler asked visiting inmates and it's actually just a bar, but that was like a fun little thing. So it's on Avenue A and that's where she met Patty and he was a bad boy, possessive, violent. Patty just vanished one day and Laura told Garrett it was because he was mixed up in a murder. She was totally terrified he would ever come back. And why didn't she mention it though? And Stabler is like, can

So we're in the office. Benson's at her desk.

Ruby Morales is clickity clacking checking corrections for Patty. There's ony three hundred and seventy two matches, and then he narrows it down by some things and it's seven hundred and four. And then they narrow it down and then a dream team walks in. We got Warner Novak Superstars. Melinda's like, you're not going to find him in there. So I got Kendall's y chromosomes. I ran it through COTIS. The DAD is not in there, so it's like the DNA whatever. So the DNA is not in codis. It's

Boohoo, it's not legal. This proves nothing.

And Melinda's like it's not proof, it's an investigative tool. And he's like it's a violation of civil liberties. You go after me because my dad's a purp that's guilt by association. Saylor's like, I'm more worried about a missing kid than your civil liberties.

Let's go. Ruben turns around dejected and leaves.

Stablers asks if Casey can make this work in court, and she says she'll try, and let's all go shake the family tree. So with Kendall's DNA, we got nine hits. There's George Kendall is there. So Standler's like, oh, maybe she named Kendall after the father. Melinda's like, why would you name the child after an abusive X And he's like controlled doesn't end after you know the like the relationship, does you know? The ConTroll over the victim is still had,

It's like, you could have just said Peggy, do you know what I mean? Yeah?

So why are you mentioning the nuns? So they go visit Peggy. Classic This is a classic face.

I would say. Her name is Marion Celdas.

Celdy's I'm not really sure, but she's a Tony Award winning actress. Born in nineteen twenty eight, she did pass in twenty fourteen, nominated for five Tony's. She won for her first nomination for she was in Edward Alby's A Delicate Balance. In twenty ten, she received a Tony Lifetime Achievement Award. She has over one hundred credits. She has a real evil vibe. Okay, I'm sure she could be kind, but she looks like an evil bitch.

Okay.

She was BIG's mother and sex and the city in the didn't realize that.

Yeah.

I also recognize her for Mona Lisa's smile. She was the president of the school. Is that a movie for you? Is this another blind spot?

Care? That's a blind spot for me? Never see Mona Lisa smile. I feel like you would love it.

It's like a woman's college education, female bonds.

You would love this. I bet I would love it.

I Julia, Jennifer Goodwin, Kristen Dunce, Michelle Williams, No, we else, there's more.

It's star you know what it is.

It came out when I was living in Italy, so I was like it did if it didn't come out with like an English version in the theater.

Then I would be like, Stu, I just missed a lot of movies that I write it down. You would love Marcia Gay Harden of the Pod, You would love Mona Lisa smiles, so she obviously plays a vindictive bitch in that. And then cool because we talked to so many people that went to Juilliard. She taught acting at Juilliard from nineteen sixty seven to nineteen ninety one, Wow, and then at Fordham's Lincoln Center campus from two thousand

I'm not having it.

You're bold as brass trying to pin a kidnap and on one of my sons.

I'm obsessed with.

Her and he's like, no, I'm just trying to find the father, and she responds, my brother in law may have fallen for that line, but my mother never raised any fools. Now you get off my property. So slams the door. Elliott calls Melinda immediately. He's like, pull birth certificates please, to all kids born to Peggy Kendall.

So, oh my god, this bitch had eleven kids.

Very Cara clank and no more your grandmother, my grandma.

All boys kill me.

So they pull all the DMV photos of all these boys. They play games, ruling some people out in and out. Sailor's like, great, let's get the DNA from the others. No vax like no dice, low stringency analysis is too circumstantial. Only when we narrow it down to one suspect can we do that. So he's got to go actually investigate into your fucking job, Stabler. So Craigan rushes in. They found Kendall. He's alive. He was dropped off at a firehouse.

Yes, he was a pivotal character on Twin Peaks, like huge, Like I don't know. I was so young when I watched Twin Peaks. I was like, oh my god. He has that bad boy energy like in Twin Peaks, big time.

And Stabler approaches him and asks who are you and he says, I'm the baby's father, James Kendall, and Stabler gets a sinister look on his face and says, I bet people call you Patty. Done done, Okay, so we're an interrogation. Patty's like, I don't have time for this. It's late. I need to get my son home. And they're like, you haven't been in your son's life this long? What's the fucking rush now? And Stabler lets him know that they're not going anywhere till the DNA results come back,

He claims that they were.

Getting back together and she was just waiting for her divorce from Keselowski to be finalized to say they were getting back together. Stable's like, why didn't you come forward when your child went missing? He's like, I had no clue. I was at my cabin, no phone, no TV, nothing, and Saber's like, wow, convenient timing. You come back hours after your son reappears. He ignores that question and just

Why is he called Patty if his name is James, these boys were all named Patrick.

You just call boys Patty. Yeah, it might be like an Irish I don't know Irish people. Let us know what's with the Patty.

So Peggy's with a baby and Patty is in leather and Stabler's like, uh Kazlowski runs in. The elevator doors open and he rushes towards the baby. They start to fight over the baby. He calls Peggy a crazy bitch. Patty is like, that's my mom. So we're gonna have a problem. And I love that. They love corraling enemies in the elevator lobby. Yeah, there's some shoving. Dan calls Patty a psychopath. Patty calls Dan a drug mule. Dan punches him. There's a full fistfight, very irish pub bar vibes.

That is a lie. Laura was terrified of him.

He kidnapped that baby and when we got close to him, Mommy tipped him off and the baby was returned. Novak chimes in Laura's suicide gave him custody. Sabler says, Laura did not want Patty to have Kendall. We have to do something about this. Novak is like, how do you know that? Sabler says she was in a custody battle with Dan for the baby, so all she had to do was tell the court it was Patty's child to end it, but she would never So Novak is like, okay,

She calls it a pack of lies.

She says, still, we've done a psych assessment, a home study, and we can't let Kendall stay with her son. And she says, not over my dead body, and they're like, honey, if you interfere, you can be arrested.

She's so sad. It is a struggle for her.

She holds back tears, but she hands over the baby and lets them all know that she has a very good lawyer and we'll get him back. And this isn't over, and she glares her famous glare. How do you think she has money for, like a great lawyer raising eleven kids in Manhattan and it looks like a brownstone?

Like what's up?

Well, that's a great question. The Manhattan and the eleven kids of it all, that's like not real. But also maybe they have like a rent stabilized building because they've been there forever. And also maybe the great lawyer is like a family friend.

Got it?

You know?

Now we're back in the Hallway, and Novak's like, oh, I'll win for the people to Elliott and Stabler is like, we still have to prove that Patty is the kidnapper. Then a young woman asks for Elliott and he's like, yeah, can I help you? You've been served? And he has been served and he's like, can you believe this? Casey, and the woman turns back around is like, Casey Novak, cool, you just saved me.

A trip downtown.

You could have done that part, Lisa.

That part she's getting served too. Obsessed. I'm obsessed. This is the humor. This is the humor we love, and this is when it hit me. No Munch, no Finn, no Benson. Yeah, but Stabler heavy baby, Peggy said, but I want to know what we need to ask mul bear. Maybe he remembers, like what was happening during this that they were all off work, Like I'm just so curious. So Peggy did say she had a good lawyer, and

Please. I feel like Donnelly and Stabler please.

He asks if they have a case, and Donnelly says, the suit has merit and they need to get themselves a lawyer today.

Stabler is like, well, the city.

Represents cops, and She's like, uh, you trust the civil servant to save your house and your pension. Novak's asked, like what choice do they have? And I'm getting excited. I wonder who it's gonna be. Okay, so Peggy wasn't kidding. Patty's lawyer is Granger.

But like that's a extremely high powered lawyer.

Oh yeah, he does, like the high you know in law.

Loss Right is like Zapata does the drugg is that him?

Does he dose a potu? He sure does?

Yeah, And he just has like I don't know to me, he's like from a white shoe law firm, top of the top, like.

They must be. He's not a thousand an hour vibes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'm not saying you can't be like a rich person with eleven but with like eleven kids in Manhattan, it just seems like a wild connection to be able to afford this lawyer.

I wrote.

And then for those who don't know, Granger is in real life married to Cindy Lapper, Mister Cindy Lopper. He's expensive, no morals, rich, evil hair, and he is tap dancing in his opening statement, having a blast. He makes a good point. This guy has committed no crimes. He truly has done nothing wrong, and they've done all of these behind the alley things to go to court. He makes very strong points, very theatrical. He makes fists in the air. There's been a lot of manipulations. I do believe that

Loo.

She says that he's decorated and dedicated. Casey is a babe and has a seventy one percent conviction rate and the national average is forty four percent. Awards, medals, accommodate, accommodations, commendations, and lots of letters from victims, but none of that matters. But because this dude wants to go after their reputation and he is a liar, a violent man, a batterer. I don't believe a word he says. And by the time we're through here, neither will you. Yes, bitch, get him.

I just don't get how this man would have like no criminal record. Well if Granger's been his fucking lawyer. But yeah, no, ire know nothing. He's never even been questioned by the police. He says he doesn't drink because his dad was a drunk. He promised his mother he would do better.

And then you know, the mom is shamed for drinking and smoking weed. There's an objection, it is sustained nothing further. Judy stands up, congratulations on keeping your record clean. I'm sure you'll agree. You just haven't been caught. And the judge is like, Elizabeth, you know better. And I'm like, okay, I love you know. I want these judges out for wine. So then she's like, fine, if you're such a perfect father, then explain to this court why you've never paid child support.

There's zeroing in.

It's really intense music, and Donnelley is like, this is a really improper way to introduce evidence.

This is not cool. My experts need to look at that photo.

Next thing we do is jump to Stabler on the steps of a fresh crisp morning as Patty is getting the paper and he's like, oh, big mistake, you're an idiot. He goes hell of a nerve but not a lot of brains, but he does get to arrest him, and Stabler seems confident. Granger stands up and screams this is harassment. Down in interrogation and then a threat about I'll have both of your jobs. Casey says, I don't think so starts unpacking the box and explaining how it's stuff from

And Grainger's like, okay, let's make a deal.

So Casey's like, well, obviously we'll start with the civil suits.

They're dropped.

You're also going to give up your parental rights, correct, and I'll bring it down from kidnapping one to custodial interference. That's an e felony, so only between one and a half to three years. Sabler says, beats life. He agrees, and he's taking the deal. So Sabler then asks how'd you find out about Kendall And he says, my mother, Laura, was on the street with the boy and the mom said that the boy looked just like me as a baby, so he knew it was mine. She knew it was mine,

Yeah, you had eleven kids, and you want your beatter, loser husband son to have the babies.

Jesus.

So she wanted a grandson so bad that you know, she said she'd pay for everything and buy him a new car. So he didn't even care about this kid. He just wanted a car. He did it for a car. Casey and Stabl are rare walking off, being like, oh my god, the bluff it worked. I can't believe the bluff worked with this so they had no finger and it worked for me too.

I totally forgot this car.

I fell for a hardcore there were no fingerprints, and Lunky, we're all lucky, grangered and asked to see proof.

So maybe he's not as good of a lawyer as he thinks he is.

Kauzlowski's there, like, oh my god, I can really take him home. He's so excited. He's going to meetings, no gambling, no drinking for a whole week, and he has a clean apartment. He's so happy to be a dad.

But like, back to your original question, are the drug dealers just letting him live his life as a single dad now, Like I don't know about that, Like he owed a lot of money.

And the other thing is, well, maybe.

The cops would know that it's them if something happened and it's not worth it to them.

Since the cops let them go.

Maybe they're all like, let's just call it a wash. I don't know, the gamble, like they're still gonna give the I don't know. The other thing is is like I don't think there's a world where they would give the kid back to Kazlowski either, Like I think they would search for family members of hers or family members of his that aren't bad her, Like one of his

We've talked about this before. But maybe it's because they were fighting for custody. Maybe he did have partial visits or something.

I don't know.

Yeah, you are right, You're yeah, I don't know. I just like to point out these little weird things.

Well, I do like that they're starting over in the show, there's still going to be a formal hearing, so it could see, you know, but Patty will be out of his life forever. Maybe they have to do it for Patty to be out because Patty is such a violent guy.

But even like the mom could petition for rights and she would get rights over Kazlowski, No, because then she couldn't guarantee that Patty wouldn't see the baby, like they couldn't, you.

Know, like she would let Patty And she did aid the kidnap.

If she yes, if she was officially charged for like aiding in the kidnapping, but if she didn't have anything to do with it, but she definitely did. She definitely helped that kid would have had diaper rash for sure if it was just Patty.

But go on, go on. No, So he thanks them and leaves.

Melinda walks in and apologizes for the new tech expedition getting them in trouble, and they're like, who cares, it's all the case, It's all that matters. Well and is like, yeah, probably won't be around for long, and stablers like, yeah, let's use it while we still can to. Milinda is like, yeah, your partner already has I actually have results? She asked me to run. Can you please give them to her? He agrees. He walks it over to Benson, who's still

She's like, oh, yeah, cold case. She opens it up.

He's like, you're working, You're you're not working on any cold cases? What is this for? She breathes in. He asks again, who's DNA? Did you have tested?

Live?

She says mine, I have a brother. End of the episode done.

Don which, by the way, Melinda is incorrect. They are still using that kind of DNA analysis and I believe that's how they caught the Golden State killer. So like we're still using that. I don't know if it's like if it holds up.

But it must. I thank you said. It's not like that's it.

It's an investigative tool, yes, yes, for sure. Yeah, Like it's not like this, it's not like DN as definitive as DNA, but then you can find someone make connections other ways. But I wonder if there's like laws around that but anyway, the real life case to this is extremely close. So grab a little popcorn and come right back, or don't go anywhere.

I don't know what I'm trying to say. We'll be right back with the real case.

Okay, we are back with a case that I remember happening when it happened. This is the story of Melinda Duckett, who was a young woman. She was actually born in Korea, but adopted by a US family and raised in like sort of way upstate New York by like the Canadian border until she was seventeen, and then she moved to Florida to live with her grandparents. They don't it's very I read a lot of articles. It's very unclear why

Oh my god. I found that out like towards the end of my research, and I was like, what the fuck?

Like crazy, but also just in a more casual sense, this like wanting to be a grandparent.

It's like ghetto.

Yeah, yeah, I had to get to be comparents or not on their own. Will this whole thing of we want to be grandparents it's kind of sickening.

I really am against it. It's like not yeah, it's like not something I think about or care about.

Really.

I mean I obviously would it would be nice when I'm older, I guess, but like the obsession is crazy. So a review by DCF agents found there were no concerns for the boy's safety and that the case did not meet the case quote does not meet high risk criteria. So DCF was very involved in their lives.

There's like a long report.

I linked to the report in my sources or took a couple pages of the report that I could find, And it seems like the two of them are using d Sorry it's DCFS in LA, but DCF as like a weapon against each other. So in April of five, she he had her committed involuntarily under Florida's Baker Act, which allows authorities to commit people for up to thirty six hours for psychological evaluations if they appear to be

Like was she keeping the baby away from the grandma? Like what was the grandma's issue?

Well, they were sharing custody at some point, but I think they wanted to have full I don't know.

That's bullshit, I know.

Especially when it's like your son doesn't seem like he really wants to. Oh and another thing I read about the Sun was he was like, I'm a spontaneous person, and she just wants to have everything planned out every second. It's like that's kind of what you have to do when you have a kid and you're sharing the kid with another person. It's all about scheduling, and like you can't just be like, oh, sweet, you want the kid tomorrow.

Cool?

You know that's like sorry, bro, You're like surfer lifestyle is not going to work for this arrangement. So after three months of multiple complaints and of abuse, Josh and Melinda get married in July of five. Not a great idea. The relationship is obviously rough. They break up and they reunite all the time, and then Melinda finally files for divorce in two thousand and six.

The divorce is not good.

Of course, Trenton is going between fighting parents and at

I don't know if you have.

At nine o'clock, when the movie was over, Melinda tells police she goes to check on Trenton in his bedroom.

Just like in the show.

He's gone and there's a cut the window screen above his crib. According to police, she was considered the prime suspect because they found some of Trenton's toys and a sonogram in the trash of her apartment complex.

So that's right from the episode.

Yeah, and they didn't arrest her immediately because they thought she would lead them to the boy eventually. So it was also very similar to what happened in the show where she spent the full day, she said, shopping with her son. But no, there's no footage of her anywhere with the kid. There's no like there's a gas receipt, but like nobody saw the kid like, so nobody really knows at one point in the day he might have gone missing, because she's the only one the friends never

This, I thought this was kind of interesting.

A few days after Trenton disappeared, Melinda's grandfather, who shed who she had lived with down in Florida, Bill U Banks, said he held her hands in his hands and said, I want you to look me in the eye. Do you know where Trenton is? And she said, Poppy, I don't know where Trenton is. And he said he believed her and that she had never lied to him before.

Going where were you? Why aren't you telling us where you were that day? And so she got this woman like pretty upset.

And the day after the taping of the show, hours before it was supposed to air on television, Duckett wrote a two page letter addressed to the public, and it was all about how much she loved Trenton and how sad and angry she was over being ridiculed and facing all this quote unquote ridicule and criticism. She wrote that the letter was quote a last minute idea, but I have felt myself sinking after one week mark of Trent being gone. I love him dearly, and he is all

So it's a real tragedy. Just a very chaotic story from the start, I know, and.

Nancy Grace being involved.

It was funny because I was going back and reading old articles on like New York Times and Washington Posts and stuff, and like in the comments, all the comments are from two thousand and six, you know, and they're just like Nancy Grace is what's wrong with journalism? And then other people are like, no, she's asking the tough questions and they're like, no, wonder we're so divided as a nation, And I'm like, God, we were divided back then, we're so divided.

Next, well, I mean, she is a dumb bitch to me, but like, no worse than Pierce Morgan, you know what I mean. Yeah, she's like I feel all the dude news cast her guys are so much worse. So I wonder how much of her annoyingness is because she's a woman versus like this kind of behavior.

Yeah, well, you could definitely tell what SVU thought of Nancy Grace in this episode because they call Cindy Marino the devil.

I feel like multiple times.

Because there's one interview with Elizabeth Smart where Elizabeth Smart hates Nancy Grace.

Yeah, I don't think she's the one that should be doing the compassionate interviews. I think she's the like she's the one that's doing the like why isn't anybody looking at that? Like I do respect if she's given light to cases that wouldn't have been covered, maybe, but I don't think you need to scream at a mom. The kid's been gone for a week. There's truly no proof she did anything to him. She's twenty years old, essentially a teen mom, and they're really I don't know, I don't know.

It's just sad.

It is sad, sad all around. But we're gonna pick it back up with really one of that happiest interviews we've done in a long time with a very fun person.

So don't go anywhere.

Today's guest has been a fixture on sitcoms for the past twenty years. You guys know her from starring roles on the Jim Gaffigan show, Good Morning Miami and How I Met Your Mother. You may also recognize her from the recent Sister Swap movies on Hallmark, but you know her today as tortured mother of a kidnap baby Laura Kozlowski. Please enjoy our delightful chat with Ashley Williams.

Thank you so much for doing this.

I know we had like Mark for our buddy, Mark Foyerstein was like stalking you on our behalf and I was like, like.

I was like, did you ask her? He's like I asked her. I was like, we have asked for a whole more time. So I'm really good.

It's really fun.

It's really fun for me because it's felt like a little team of people was stalking me and I'm actually very into that, so it may have just made me feel a little cooler. And I just appreciate your part in that.

Yeah.

Actually, this was what was so great about talking to Mark is the first time I know you did tons of acting before, but the first time I remember you coming on the scene for me was Good Morning Miami, which I did watch.

I mean, I oh, okay, I was in like a soap opera in high school. Yeah I saw that, but but yeah, that was my first job out of like theater school.

Wow.

And I saw you had a non verbal role in the movie Indian Summer, which I am obsessed with and that I was trying to remember.

Movie and that part was so like, in hindsight, I cannot believe my parents let me do that.

I played. I play at the camp Slut. I was like a lesson.

Yeah.

My mom was like, this is the rocket.

Yeah, literally, your type, your name of your character is not just like a girl's name, it's like the girl's name. And then it says the camp sure thing is what it says on the IMDb.

I I just love that. My mother was like, We're so proud, were so round.

Amazing love that though, because I am obsessed with that movie.

So yeah, Good Morning Miami was like your first big thing.

You and Mark got to play like opposite each other, as like a will they won't they Jim and Pam type of situation.

Yeah, I love that. It was an intense first job, you know.

Yeah, like we were like on right after Friends on Thursday nights and I was twenty two years old, Like, you know, crazy, Well.

How did you, like, how did your whole I mean, you were on a soap opera in high school. I know your sister is an actor as well. How did your whole like acting journey begin. You saw your sister doing it, you wanted to do it. You guys both started at the same time.

What was the deal?

Oh, basically, my sister's seven years older than me, and I to this day basically just want.

To be her.

As a child, I followed her around and wore her clothes, and then when she became.

An actress, I was like I want to do that too.

But it was also really interesting, like we grew up my my dad was a writer and we grew up like very lower middle class and my sister. We had an next door neighbor who was on Another World, which was a soap opera that's long gone.

But my sister was like she was the kind of pretty where like people would.

Stop us in the street and be like, can I take a picture of your you know, of your kid.

And I was the like younger.

Like like a little bit like hyper freaky, strange, not not perfectly like my sister's features are teeny like she just is like she's just like a model.

She's beautiful.

So but this next door neighbor said, you got to get this, you know, kim into acting. And she booked a national dairy commercial and made like four times what my parents made in a year from that one day of work.

And they were like, you all have to do this.

So my mom, my mom, my mom brought me and my other and we all got headshots and we started auditioning and we started like getting commercials, you know, and then like our whole life's change. We ended up paying for college from that. It was it was actually like a very smart move. But consequently suddenly I'm, you know, in my mid forties and one of my first credits is like camp slut because my mom was like, go go.

Run, like the just do it.

It doesn't matter. You know, because you guys were young when you started. Did your parents have to be on set? And what was their vibe when you were okay with them?

Okay? Years work, It's really weird.

My parents came when we would do like commercials and stuff, and then my mom came the first couple of days I worked on As the World Turns, my soap opera, but she had a job like my parents had jobs. Right, So basically I became friends with the principal of my of my like middle school and high school, and I just said to him, listen, I am fine, I if my GPA falls below a certain amount, let's get a whole host of tutors and do the whole SAG thing.

Wow, it was nuts nuts.

And you just kind of like self taught yourself.

You just so I went into school when I wasn't working, but I was a contract player. So I was in school like maybe two days a week, and then the other days of the week I would have like my textbooks, and I had like a couple of my friends who would bring home copies of the homework and drop it off at my house or my parents would go pick it.

Up, and I would do all my home work.

And you know, I that was where I realized I was like a crazy work ethic genius person, which is I'm not lucky particularly like like academia smart, but I know how to get work done, do.

You know what I mean.

I was handing in That's how I am. Yeah.

I was handing in papers that were a lot of like regurgitation, and I was like always like a solid, solid like B minus student. And then I would write like an amazing paper about you know, the Gettysburg address, and then it would like my would go up a little bit.

So I was like skin of my teeth. I made it so he did.

He was amazing. Doctor Rooney was his name. I don't I should find out where he is today. He's probably still back.

To careful going down, careful going down, that I've looked up some of my old teachers.

They're no longer with us.

That is so sad.

I'm always like, what happened to my teacher I love?

And you like get their obituary, but I hope doctor Rooney is still taking it.

So all then, all this time goes by.

Your you you do, you do, Good morning Miami, And now you get this what happens with the SVU?

Do you just get offered this? What's going on? Like tell us the Journey of the SVU.

It was a freakin' flat offer, which does not happen to people like me. It was, yeah, such a big deal. And here's the really weird thing. My husband was running the New York Marathon the week that I was shooting SVU, and he was like, you have to take this because then I don't have to pay for road.

So and also it's over. I wasn't getting you know, it's a big deal.

So yeah, the whole time I was.

There, like my husband was like running and like icing his thighs and you know, getting gear and stuff like that. And then he ran it like one of the mornings that I was shooting. Oh no, it was because he like a Sunday, but it was like over the weekend, you know, And.

So tell us how it was, Like, what was the set? Like, did were you a fan of the show going into it?

Like?

How did you like?

What?

I mean, it's sort of.

You know, I was definitely. I'm definitely not a person that's seen every episode of Law and.

Order, but but I have gone through phases in my life like Law and Order phases in my life, So I definitely knew the form, I knew the medium, I knew the done done, you know.

I was into all of.

That and more than anything else, it just felt like such a cool rite of passage as an actor to get asked because and still to the like, I actually rewatched the episode last night in preparation for our interview and the cast of I mean, of all episodes, but my episode in particular is so astounding. Marian Selby's I mean just the pure I mean, Pablo, so Pablo Schreiber. And then here's the crazy thing is I have a connection to so many of the people from that episode.

Now, Pablo Schreiber went to college with my husband.

I directed a movie two years ago for Lifetime, and Diane Neil is my lead and tomorrow Toney is my is my number three on that movie.

So I don't wait, did you know that.

You direct you? We did a lot watch Circle of Betrayals.

You guys saw that movie.

Yes, yes, because oh my gosh, yes, Diane Hold did alive with us after the movie.

So Diane told us about you directing this interview. This is all coming back to me. I cannot believe. I didn't remember this when I was prepping the questions for this, but like Diane was like, oh, it's directed by Ashley Williams and she's amazing. It's the one where she's like the psycho best friend right and like and her like she maybe kills her friend's husband.

So I felt I directed.

We had just we had just started our podcast and we were like, let's do something fun with that, and her, like Diane's people gave us like a pre screener of the movie, so we watched it and then like right after it aired, we did a Live with Diane and she came on and like answered questions and we talked about it. Because she's been on our pod and is like a great supporter of our podcast.

We love her. Died That is so funny. We've seen it, baby, Like my dad.

Didn't watch that movie. Like I saw that movie. Is amazing. Oh that was my directorial debut.

Oh, we've seen it.

We saw it because we were like, of course, we have to watch it tomorrow Tooney and Diane Neil, like.

We got a little fan.

Yeah, we shot that movie, so we got shut down in the middle of the pan right when the pandemic started. We got shut down, and then two months later we picked up. We were one of the first productions back in Vancouver, so the fact that we pulled it off was kind of a miracle.

It was amazing.

Wait, so do you have other connections to other actors in this episode besides those three?

Okay?

Wait wait, I made a list. Hold on. Okay. First of all, Oh, yes, okay, here's another crazy one.

I went to college with Amber Gray, who's the movie theater girl from the episode She's.

Got the curl, the one who's like, I don't I don't want to see babies, I don't want to hear Mercy.

That's like Amber Gray.

She has a Tony for you know, the Orpheus and You're rid of Sea musical.

Oh, and I went to college with her.

Wow.

I went to college with Amber Gray.

Oh yeah, she plays Persephone.

Thank you.

I can't believe I didn't put that together.

Wow wow, So that was amazing. Okay, who else Kathleen? Is it?

Selifant? Who's the judge? She and I did a play together. Oh here's another really fun one that I thought you guys would appreciate. So my sister was in Front of the Bride with Beattie Wong.

Yes, and when I and when I.

Was there, uh in like you know, shooting the episode, they gave me Lung's dressing room. And so I was eleven when my sister shot Father of the Bride.

And remember that I was her.

Psychotic stalker fan like my own big sister.

I was her number one fan. Like I saw Father of the Bride.

I used to just watch it every day after school just to sort of it was like church for me, right, Like it's like, imagine if your sister is like Julia Roberts, like you just.

You know, yeah.

It's also was just such a big movie at that time, Like I'm your age, and like I feel like we just were all obsessed with Father of the Bride.

And she is like this star of this movie and you're like.

Wow, Like I don't know, I like imagine being her little sister, and the like idea of like we were in the same womb. I could have been her, she could have been me, like she basically met me, you know, just so funny. So so anyway, I met Betty Wong when I was eleven, and I went and forced her to make me an extra.

In the movie.

And so when I was there, I left bed Wong like I wrote him a letter.

Cute Williams.

I was eleven years old when I met you, and I like wrote him this a whole letter, and I never heard from it.

I gave him my phone number. You never you.

I bet he thought it was cute. I bet he was just busy.

He's probably really moved overwhelmed.

So this is a very Christopher Maloney heavy movie with you. Like he clearly I mean movie episode. This episode is very heavy with you and Christopher Maloney. How was working with him?

I think I caught him right at like a heavily fatigued with the genre moment. You know, he was all business. He was I felt like, you know, kind of just like let's just let's go, let's go, let's get through this, you know, yeah, and uh so, But I also I don't know what it's like to, you know, to do the same thing over and over and over again for so many years in a row. I've never been that successful.

So, you know, I had know it was season eight. It was season eight. He had been doing it for a while.

But what about when he's what about when he's taking you off of the fan and like your little rag doll body is in his hands.

You guys didn't bond.

First of all, thank you for calling me little.

Second of all, I mean, I do remember it being very difficult because he was like right here.

He was like I had to be like, you know, like.

Dead body, dead face.

You guys are dancing cheek to cheek on me.

I remember consciously wanting to smell him, but my character's not breathing, so I had to be like, don't smell Christopher Maloney right now, don't smell.

Him because you're not allowed to breathe because you're dead.

Wow.

But yeah, we spent a lot of time on that like harness situation.

Yeah, because we talked to another person on our podcast who met the same end as your character, and she told us about it's like a full harness that keeps you up and like it seems like it was hardcore.

It was like it went they had me in that big sweatshirt because it went like around.

I can't really remember, but I remember there being.

Like hardcore hard plastic things because it hooked into the back, you know, and it was the I remember the stunt coordinator. I had to build it and it was complicated.

We had to have like a lot of fittings and you.

Know, it was this was like, gosh, such a small moment, but I loved your acting when like Stabler's talking to you and you're like, well, why do I have to do this? And he's like a mother actually worried about her kid would let you, and then you kind of just have this face that I really love, you know.

It was a saying that something that bothered me about my own acting as I watched it last night was that I had all these copious tears and I just I never wiped them. Like who cries that hard and doesn't wipe their face? But I think somebody had told me, if you have achieved tears, don't wipe them away because then the audience won't know that you were actually crying.

Because you don't.

Nobody does that. People cry and wipe the whole time, you know. Yeah, the tears just sat on my face.

And rolled and I didn't touch them.

But not if you're like in true agony, I think you might not be thinking about that because something about when kids really cry, they don't wipe it around.

Thank you for justifying that terrible choice I made.

You're right, his kids are like unsolf So maybe she's like un self conscious.

Yeah, she's just like so and there.

Buying it, buying it.

She's sad. Wait, is your husband an actor as well?

No, he's a reformed actor. He's a producer. He got an actual real job.

Yeah, and he does your stuff. Yeah.

Well, work together when I can rope him into it.

Yeah, well that's so an. It's sister swap. So you work with your family often.

Well, I mean sister swap was the first time I worked with my sister.

And that's for our listeners, Just for our listeners. Sister swap.

Are these Hallmark movies that you and your sister do together, And what's the premise that you guys switch lives or you don't look that much alike that it's like it's not like a twin swap, but like it's like a wife swap.

Yeah. Well, yeah, we definitely made that joke.

Well, the idea is, it's two movies, okay, and we are working on more, but we shot two movies and it's city mouse, Country mouse, who basically switch right, So we I live in her house and do her thing and she lives, you know, in mine, and we sort of switch which mouse are you? I'm I'm country mouse goes to the city okay, and she comes home because I take Yeah. So, but it was really cool because those movies were really outside the box for Homewark, you know, well, especially at the time.

Now they're kind of like doing all kinds of.

Fun stuff, but this was a couple of years ago and it was really kind of like an innovative idea. And then what was really fun was that Dan Harmon, that comedy writer, got drunk this past Christmas and happened upon them and became as with the idea of two movies that were shot that were crossboarded, so we shot two movies, but a lot of the scenes were in

So, you know, I love that. I love this.

It's so good. Right.

It was by like BuzzFeed, and I did an interview with The Daily Beast, and you know, everybody was like because at the time it sort of like went a little bit under the radar, but when Dan Harmon had too much eggnog, it had this whole researches this past year.

I was really grateful. I love that. That's really fun.

Wow, And did your little sister heart just fill with joy getting to work with her sister?

You guys, my sister is like she's hit the coolest to this day, to this day, she's just amazing, So, you know, getting to do scenes with her and like I just you know, it was heaven I would do any love in a heartbeat.

I feel like there's no like I know other sisters that are actors and it does not turn out like this, Like they are like so competitive and don't understand each other, and like it's really nice.

I think the dynamic with us is very clear, which is like, there's no competing with her because she's so cool.

So that's all that has to happen.

Is I just love on her and she I, thank god, is incredibly generous and patient with.

Me, so it really works out. But there's a clear leader between the two of us.

I wanted to ask you also about the Make Her Mark program that I think you started or founded or tell me about that.

Thank you so much for us about this. This is the thing I'm the most excited about. So yeah, I mean, I've been working for the Hallmark Channel for a couple of years, and you know, one of my favorite things, other than sort of just the feel good nature of the material, is that it's always about these sort of female forward characters who are not interested in love and then you know, against even their own best instincts.

They sort of fall in love.

But it's about it's these female centered stories and I realized, after like my fifth or sixth Hamewark movie, I'm like, all of these are directed by men, you know, what is going on? And so, you know, I did some research and I realized that out of one hundred movies that Hallmark makes a year, a hundred that year that

You know.

I went to our sort of higher ups and they said, well, you know, can you do some more research and come back to us. So then I started meeting with the heads of all the diversity inclusion programs in our industry and forcing them to give me advice about how to start a women's directing program at Hallmark. And I got amazing advice and have you know, kind of like a little collection of very wise individuals helping me, and finally, you.

Know, Hallmark was on board. We figured out how to make it pay for itself because basically, the.

You know, what makes our program different than others is that we employ our women.

So we train them.

So we find a men team who is so somebody who has some experience in directing but would never probably get her own movie.

At this point, and then we give her.

We pair her with a directing mentor okay for all of prep, all of shooting, and for as much of post as as possible. She shadows that directing mentor for the entire movie, and then they switch and that mentor becomes her creative producer and she has her directorial debut.

So not only are we employing her.

But we're also making sure that there's somebody there helping her, advocating for her, making sure that she absolutely nails it so that she can get hired in the future. So it's called make Her Mark. And we have our very first mentee, Crystal Lowe, who's an incredible director. She's directed a bunch of short films.

She's been pounding the pavement as a director for fifteen years, writing, applying to programs, shadowing, working no one trusted her with a movie right because she's new.

So she's on set right now with Jessica Harmon, who's on her thirteenth Hallmark movie that she's directing in the last two years, and she's shadowing Jessica, and then Jessica is going to become her creative producer for Crystal's directorial debut this year. So a female director is born, thank you very much, and we're going to be doing two more this year. So that's three in our pilot program and in success. I am gonna not have it stop at directors. I want to do it for writers, producers, dops.

Well I love that it's not just shadow, but then they get an opportunity to immediately use all of these skills.

That's like so innovative.

I love that, Thank you, And they have someone that has their back so that they're not just like thrown into the deep bat too, Like, I ah, what a great idea.

Wait, thank you.

Yeah, I'm really proud of it.

Yeah, so go check out my Instagram page. We have more information about you know, the rest of the year's mentees and then how to apply in the future.

We're working on it.

Awesome, awesome, Yeah, totally. We'll shut this out on the pod.

I'm so excited that Mark was not afraid to ask you a second time and that this all worked out, and it was so great to meet you. Hopefully we'll run into each other in Los Angeles.

Yeah, thank you so much. You guys, we've.

Maybe never met such a positive person. She's like the smiliest, most positive person.

And there's it's there. I don't see a seething anger underneath.

Yeah. No, there's not like a fake like darkness. I don't. I don't sense that.

She just seems like she loves her life, loves her sister like.

And there's not a Jesus freak underneath either. You know, there's not like a Lord light either. It's like, I mean, don't tell Hallmark that, but yes, well she could just she could, like the lore, but it's that's not that's not the kindness defining Yeah no, it's it's just the kindness, you know, that that I'm sensing she could be she could be doing what Paul Bettany did in that What does that mean when you're hitting yourself with the leather

The book, I mean, I read the book too, like that was the book.

I loved the book, and everyone's like, the book is terrible, like and I'm like, oh, I loved it, and it's like a huge bestseller.

It was the fifty Shades of Gray of its.

Time, I guess, although I think Dan Brown's a better writer than the Fifth Shades Lady for sure.

Both just seems sexy, dark and whipping a lot of whipping, and in both yeah, whip whipping in sex.

What did we learn here?

What's our post mortem on this episode? I mean, as always, we're way too hard on mothers, single mothers, new mothers, Like everybody just fucking calmed down. Let this woman help you find her son instead of I miss shaming her on television for smoking a little weed and having a charade party.

I missed when the news was the news, Yeah, when it wasn't just sensationalized wild behaviors.

Oh but speaking of this, I did not cut my cable, but I downgraded to this package where you can pick fifteen channels and you get local channels too, so I can watch like the Oscars and.

What is this? This is what I want to get from my mother? What is this?

It's Spectrum and it's called like something choice, my choice or something on spectrum. So you get all the local channels and then you get to pick fifteen cable channels.

I don't know if they'll be Russian channels. Well, well my.

Dad has the Russian channels downstairs, but upstairs my mom needs like some cable.

Yeah yeah, so I chose no Fox News and it's just going to be so great when my parents come from and they try to flip it on because I read I heard on this podcast that Fox News doesn't even make its money from advertising. Like the only people who fucking advertise on there are like my pillow and like really bad products. Anyway, they don't get blue chip advertising like BMW is not advertising on Fox News they get most of their money from people's cable fees, from

I can't wait for your mom to have a little meltdown. Is that where it goes down?

Well, I have CNN, and I think I have BBC and she can deal with that.

I'm so excited. Yeah, I can't wait.

I'm in a videotape, but I think, I mean, no plans for her to come right now, but can't wait.

But also, grandma's you can't just snatch like this this narrative of grandparents demanding grandchildren that's out, Yes, it's out out. Yeah godparents in demanding grandchildren out. Yes, it's rude and weird and like adopt a foster kid, become a pot.

To a parent like yeah, figure out a hobby like yeah, it's so it's more of this like spreading your seed and your lineage and all this stuff that's like so bizarre.

No, I've talked about this. My mom and I have this discussion.

Your parents just want you to suffer the way they've suffered or or experienced the joys they've experienced. But it's so you can they can relate to, Like, so you can experience what they've experienced because you were a mean teen, and then when your kid's a mean teen, you can think of them when they're dead. That's that's what being

Now, you know.

Yeah, and then that's that so then when they're in their grave they can go, that's that's what I lived for.

Yeah, you're right, that's really the circle of life.

It's like not revenge, but petty petty understanding, like.

Yeah, it's not revenge, it's yeah, it's hard to break out of the cycle of what you know, like everybody just thinks do it the way I did, Like, we do it the way Ilway did it. I mean, that's conservatism anyway. And now my parents don't get Fox News at my house anymore, so the cycle is broken.

Yeah, don't you.

Want them to visit now even faster than before? Yeah, I like don't even want my idea. I don't normally want my dad to even come visit, but I'm like, come now, you can come visit now, Like I just want you to come. But let's get into this week's what would Sister Peg Do? This is our weekly segment where we point you to an organization, a blog post, a podcast episode, an article, something to help you get more information about what we learned about in today's episode.

Did you hear that?

Plur it will be lost reputation and above suspicion. It's a double and that's season fourteen episodes one end two. Get your peacock and Hulu on and join us next week. Thank you so much, enjoy your lives. Bye. That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email. That's Messed Up Pod gmail dot com.

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Thank you so much to our producer Kac O'Brien.

And to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly gen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgareff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media, Dead The dun