Harm w/ Steven Weber

Of the law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on. These are our stories, done.

Done, Yay, that's messed up. An SVU podcast. My name is Lisa Traeger and my name is Kara Klank. You guys know what we do here. We talk about an episode of SVU the True crimits based on and we interview an amazing guest from the episode.

But first we chitchat a little bit.

And you know, I am currently experiencing my second bout of COVID. Yay, But I am honestly relieved that it's happening now before we go back out on the road again, because then I'll be like super immune and I'm not really missing anything super important that I had to cancel this week.

That's kind of good, that's kind of it.

And one of our friends had to cancel his Halloween party he got COVID. And my other friend yesterday said it's about to be another wave, and I wonder.

If I'm one of the first surfers on the wave. Man and I didn't get to go trigger treating with my kids. But I did get to take them out like the whole weekend in to a lot of Halloween stuff. I just didn't get to take them trigger treating, which Jared sent me some videos and it was cute. They are negative, so hopefully they'll stay negative because they just got vaccinated and I'm hoping that it's like more strong in them or something.

But I'm staying away from them.

But speaking of our tour, I will be COVID free and ready to embrace all of you. And this episode comes out on the fifteenth of November, which means tonight we will be in Indianapolis. Don't miss us Indy and tomorrow night in the sixteenth and Columbus, the seventeenth in Cleveland, the eighteenth in Detroit. The nineteenth will be in Detroit doing stand up. Come see us at both, and then the twentieth will be in Madison doing our podcast, and

I think the twenty second, but they refuse to put it on their website, so I don't know what's happening. So TBD on that because you can't buy it. I don't think you can even buy tickets to that, Like, I don't know why they're doing this to me, but

Yeah, heiny Kloom's party was back in effact after two years off. I think it's just like the covidun Ironically, for me, it was like a COVID bounce back Halloween, and I feel like everybody was really doing it up.

And I'm just like fun Halloween positive.

My favorite one that I saw I didn't see in person, sadly, I only saw it online, but a group of people dressed up like paparazzi, and then they were running around the city like West Village, going Whinny the Pooh, Whinny the Poo, and then.

Like asking questions and are you wearing whinny well?

And someone said that there was a Patrick and SpongeBob like covering their eyes and like pretending to get away from the paparazzi and I saw Jesus Christ once, so that I think that was like, it's cool to see people be so clever, Like I saw a group of people be car car washed and they were just like spinning around, Like I just love this holiday. I love seeing everyone's creativity. I was just a pumpkin this year, a casual, just a casual night at the cellar.

I went to one party with Jared and we just wore our peanut butter and jelly costumes from last year because we just did not get it together. Normally, I love to be something that people are talking about, Like last year, Jared and I went as the people from Lula Row documentary. The year before I went as one of the people from the Vow docuseries. So I really do try to like be on the pulse. But this

He's a genius of our time. And then also him and his boyfriend were Anamorphs.

Do you know that book series? No? Is that how you say it? Casey Anamorphs?

Yeah, and they were like a lizard man and a horse girl and they did full shoots and like pose, I mean, just I love it. I love it. I'd like to go all out, but like Kara said, this was not the year, and I was happy to be a pumpkin.

And you can tell the people that are really into it because they have multiple costumes, like Shay Coule did that hilarious Patrick thing one night where she was Patrick Starr from SpongeBob in drag, which was hilarious, and then she was this amazing yellow Mighty morphin Power Ranger Halloween. So people that have like two amazing costs. Well, and she was the scream Mask last night, Yes she did. I saw that too, Like she was a coarse drag.

Queens are gonna do it.

And I love seeing all the little kids and what they ask for.

One of the girls I follow on socials from my salondes her son asked to be Halloween decorations, which I think is so cute.

I mean, of course, this is so funny because this episode's coming out mid November. Everyone's gonna be like, why are you guys talking about Halloween? But we are in the time machine as usual. By the time you listen to this, my COVID will be long gone, Thank fucking god.

Well, I also wanted to say I did see Moona again, and one of our listeners was there and she said that she found out about the concert from me on this podcast.

It was me.

She didn't know that they were going to be in La and then so I was so glad and the will turn small.

So I feel like I ran into a lot of people.

A lot of celebs were there, Chris since Stewart, Haley Keoko. I mean it was a star studded lesbian affair. And say Muna posted they'd be They're going to be opening for Taylor Swift for a few shows. And so one of the Muna girls their girlfriend dresses Heather not Heather Barlow, Lisa Barlow, Lisa Barlow, Lisa Barlow.

There were a lot of Renas this year too. Did you see that was on eminem Renna. Yeah, there were so many Rennas also, Taylor Swift. I just read and I know this is again we're in the time machine. This is late, but has ten of the top ten on the Billboard Hot one hundred. The top ten are her songs, and it's the first. I think it's like the first time in history a man has not been in the top ten.

Yes, yeah, she kicked everybody's ass out.

Yeah, I'm happy for Taylor. She's obviously skilled, she obviously a songwriter. But to me, and I've seen her in concert, I get the album, I do it, I'm in it.

She's average.

I'm sorry, Like I'm with Theretha Franklin, where it's like, yeah, her gowns are nice.

Like beautiful gowns, beautiful gowns. I mean it's just like.

The voice is whatever, the dances what you know, it's just kind.

Of whatever but really cool and it's all petty. Yeah, but I think that's what so many people like because they're like, I'm whatever too, That's what it is.

Because I think it was Sandra burnher and Watch What Happens Live, who is just what did she say about Taylor? Where it's like she needs to go live a life so she actually has things to write about, Like how is she writing all of these songs?

She doesn't do anything, and that's why Jaren used to have a whole joke about that, how Taylor Swift is like that twenty three year old girl who's like not had any experiences complaining to you about like how Starbucks didn't make their coffee the right way.

Yeah, that's exactly what she's like, where it's like leave me alone the press, and then it's like intricate little clues within all the songs that have to do with Kim Kardashi, you know, like it's all about her.

Like she wants relief from the strap.

But then everything is like a little puzzle of like pettiness with these little arguments, and it's like, I don't know, maybe it's your fault. Maybe Taylor needs to come on enemies. Also, I do want her to listen to this podcast. And now I'm spiraling that I've called her average on this show because she loves us views, she loves true crime. I obviously am obsessed, but it is like, all right, yeah, I get all the ten songs.

Cool. Maybe it's because everyone thought she was an arian princess. I only brought it up because I thought it was cool she kicked all the men off.

I thought's why I brought it up. Yeah, but like why hasn't Gaga done that? Like I just don't get it. Yeah, I'm just confused. Why is it these fans? Because I know someone that like for their comedy albums, they at all times have their YouTube and albums playing on mute in the background of their computer at all times, so then there's residuals and you get views. So I know people that do all that stuff, and maybe these fans

But it's like how we know people in comedy who have just figured out the formula? Do you know what I mean? It can be a formula. She's figured out the formula, and what is that? Well, the well, first of all, she has mass appeal. Gaga is very very talented. But I don't know housewives in Minnesota or what or like Iowa might not be like be a little bit like, oh, she's a little too much for me. But Taylor is like perfectly palatable for everyone. Adult, yes, children, little kids,

It's yeah now, and we talk about how she's a badass, you know, like I do like that she you know, Scooter Braun tried to fuck her and she was like, not today, bitch, I'm gonna You're not gonna make a dime off of me.

And I do like that.

But I always say about her, she's like, when you're a perpetual, it's the woman who cried wolf when everything's an issue. When there really is this big thing with Scooter Braun, everyone's already annoyed with you, you know, what I mean, but I've seen her in I mean, she gets my money, you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, But I also and I love to have her on the pod, love to talk about her cat named Olivia Benson.

And what also bothered me is like in her documentary, she it was just seems stage to me. It's like, oh, now you're gonna say who you vote for, Like now you're gonna fucking be into gay people. Like she is so fucked to me because of that, Like I don't think Trump would have won if Taylor Swift fucking said fuck him.

I really don't like when she said she was voting and stuff.

I think it was like tens of thousands of people registered to vote because of her, you know, but it was just too late. Like it's just you know, she's she's not ahead of the curve, she's always behind it, I think where it's like she wasn't political in any way until it was like you're fucked if you're not, like you have to say he's bad. But it was too late, bitch, the election already happened, you know, Like yeah, it's kind of like that.

It's like you could have been pro gay people. How do you be pro like you could have had gay people's backs over a decade ago, but you waited until it was like, oh, now I'm gonna till drag Race won nine Emmys and now you're gonna be like.

I support gay people. It's just it's kind of it's funny to me. And that's the thing.

It's like there's a little bit of I guess they're all phony and bad, but then people aren't, Like she did the doctorate at the NYU, and everyone's like, you're not a doctor, And it's like celebrities always do this, Like why are you mad that she's doing it? Like somebody's always do the speeches, So it's weird. There's something in her that really you're either fully obsessed, like I've never seen people obsessed over a person before, or it's like, but I love to hate or hate to love her,

Wait, which video the newest one antihroo Yeah, where it's like two of them, Like this younger musician posted her video and it is like truly almost.

From Okay, we got to wrap it up so I can go watch this. I love watching side by side copycat shit, Wait, did I want to talk about the Iowa thing? Like? I don't even know? I mean, we have to wrap it up because we got to get

Wild.

I don't want to be like, why didn't you come over? You know, she was obviously scared. How long has this guy been dead for?

That's what I was saying. I want to eat to fifty people he's killed, yeah, like and mostly sex workers, and he she was obviously extremely scared, and she said her and her siblings were all forced to do it. But then it's like he did die in twenty thirteen, and it's twenty twenty two. So I am like wondering where the you know, where the confession was a few years ago. But I know, well, we'll see, We'll definitely see.

Yeah, but also when, yeah, when anything happens now too, I'm like, can this please be an SVO Why isn't this an SVIO? Like now I'm at this place?

They did they dig up the bodies though, Like are the bodies there?

Not that I know of? I mean maybe because that might be maybe it'll be not taking so long?

Why is that taking so long?

Come on?

This wasn't people? People doesn't?

Oh my god, did you watch the first episode of White Lotus?

Not yet?

Not yet.

Now I'm gonna have plenty of time.

My schedule has been cleared from COVID, so maybe i'll go watch it right now.

I was like, jam the fucking introthy, I mean, our girl, Meghan Faihie slays, She's so good.

It's so good. Okay, great, I'm gonna go watch it. All right, let's get let's get going with it. Don't skip the intro. Watch the fucking credits. I know, oh, I always do. I love the song, but I love the song. Okay, good is it the same song? I don't remember last song, but it's really cool. Oh my god, the song from the first one was like haunting. Yeah. I was like, I was like, and I order oh, I ordered sushi. I mean it was like a big event in my heart. Were having a time. I saw

Guys, stay fucking tuned.

And give it up for Kara, you know, push them through COVID to do this.

I love to push through here.

I am okay.

Today is the day for some harm.

It is season nine, episode five, and Tamaratuni is the thumbnail, so you know this is gonna be a good episode.

It starts out with like a young one.

I think I know exactly where she is in Central Park, Like she's it's sort of I don't know, I can't even describe what area it is. But she's like walking down these stairs at night. She's looking all around. It looks very spooky. She looks scared. She has a reason to be scared because out of nowhere, a masked man comes flying out, covers her mouth, pins her up against a wall, rips her shirt and pulls her underwear off, and she screams for help, and then the guy just

And that is what happens. They like time lapse to the morning and.

Then like you see people like quickly running by, blah blah blah, and then you see like the next thing you see is Tamratuni aka Melinda Warner bent over the body, kind of assessing the situation. Finn shows up at the scene to meet his partner Chester Lake. I don't know if we've talked about him enough, Lisa, what's your feeling on Lake. I've never loved him. I know some of our listeners are horny for him. Yeah, I wouldn't say love. I don't love, but I don't hate. He's not a

It's just like I don't think he'll be here for long. You don't really spark joy and and I don't like that.

He's like I never sleep. My family built the whole city. I know every train stop, every boat, every build, and it's like take a nap, Like I don't. I don't like all.

These special powers he has, but I don't hate him. And he is passionate about his.

Work obviously, Yeah, for some reason, like his deadpan like delivery, I don't know, it's just like doesn't do it for it. I had a hard time latching onto him. Yeah, and even its signature when he's like laying on the bed and he's like what what would I do? Like he's annoying. He's annoying.

Yeah, I would hate to work with him.

He would be someone backstage doing breathing exercises, drinking tea with honey, and it's like I don't want you around me. Ben. It's like, you know, Finn can handle it because he's been with Munch for so long and he's like I can handle a little bit of annoyance, Like so Finn probably like, lets it roll water off a duck's back Jinx Monsoon style.

But you know, I feel like, so now.

We've we're getting all the exposition, white female, mid twenties.

They're running a rape kit.

They found her library card and her name is Kate Simes. Warner then explains the sad part that this woman bled out really slowly, and Lake is like, wow, she could have been saved, and it's like, yeah, well there's kind of a reason why you're not supposed to walk alone in Central Park. I'm not victim blaming, I'm not, but don't walk alone in Central Park if you live in New York.

No, this is a good reminder since say I am in New York while we're talking about this, and who knows what would have happened tonight.

But now I won't go to the park.

Yeah, Lake goes to maybe touch her, and Warner's like back up and shows that she has this lesion on her arm and she'll let us know what it is once she figures out what the hell it is.

And then we're at the credits.

And the lesion looks wild where it's like it would like it could be Heroin, but they would know right away if it was so it's not so, then it's like, Okay, what the fuck is it?

And it was like it was it was weird.

It was weird, not great, not a great looking lesion.

So then at the morgue, Benson and Stabler are with the victim's mother to ida the body. She is obviously very upset, saying her daughter knew not to be in the park late at night. She gives her a photo of Kate, and Kate has like long blonde hair and looks absolutely nothing like the woman that we just saw get stabbed in the park and lives like wow, that's a pretty drastic like change, was like someone on her

Kate was so they said Jackie's.

Dad made a scene and all about attack Kate, and they started getting hang up calls and stablers like Walt, what did she what did she do? Like, what's the situation with this uh, with this student? And then we got to one of the wildest music videos we've seen on lainer SVU, a music video for the song Come On Mister Terrorist, which is a bunch of white girls in a rock band called seventy two Virgins, and they're singing this like very offensive song about you know, terrorists.

Like there is a pussy ryot.

Yeah, yeah, it's they're definitely trying to be like high school pussy riot and Finn and Lake are watching it in the office of the headmistress at the Heller School when we pull out, and she's in a tough position because even though the song is offensive, Jackie the girl did lose an aunt on nine to eleven, so I guess they decided like not to punish her when they found out that she was did this music video. But Kate Simes found it so offensive that she wrote letters

I don't know. I don't know what my point is. But to write to colleges is like aren't you young? I don't know.

Well, but then we do go meet the girl and she's a lot. So now we're at the Solomon household and the dad is like a full cartoon character of a New York person, Like he's just like, you know, how much money I donated at school, Like he's really like New Yorky. And then Jackie is like, what about my free speech? That bitch tried to tank my college applications, so like, you know, you're getting some entitlement. It's giving entitlement, it's giving young prep school girl.

The dad is like.

Shut up, Jackie shouldn't have made that video in the first place. So he's definitely like thinks his daughter's like a dumb bitch, but also is like, you know, this woman shouldn't have meddled in her life and calling all these colleges, and the Jackie's like the Kuran says men can abuse women physically and berbally and Finn's like, yeah, there's also like so much garbage in the Bible, like have you read it.

And then the.

Dad's like, we had to take classes at the New York Tolerance Centa.

Like everything is so funny to me in this scene.

And Jay, you even spelled it for all of us, so everyone knows Kara spelled New York New And then why a w K hollows d A h l E r A ncee.

But why aren't they read underlined? You clicked ignored, didn't you. I don't know. I don't know whether or not I never clicked the door. That's a great question. I think Google Docs knows when I'm trying to do an affected accent in my writing, so they allow it. So Jackie like says to the dad, I told you threatening missus Simes was a bad idea, and so and the dad's like half a million bucks to get into the Ivy League.

You'd be mad too.

And I'm like, wow, this is like Operation Varsity Blues over here. This man is like trying really hard to get his daughter into It's like, wow, you could just study and do well.

It's weird that you went to Varsity Blues and not the scandal with Becky from Full House. That's what it is. It's called Operation Varsity blues. Oh, I thought of the James Vanderbek movie and I.

Was no, no, no, nothing to do. You're right, you're right. But that's what they named the operation. No, I know, it's very felicity Huffman. It's very ampt Becky, like I think they were trashed in Texas playing football.

I'm like, what are you talking about?

No, yeah, it is we I don't really know why they call it that, why they called the operation that, because it's like, that isn't what operation. I'm on the rowing team, Like that's the best part operation rowing team photoshop. So yeah, So basically they're admitting that they hassled Kate Simes a little bit. But Jackie's like, my dad doesn't have the balls to kill anyone, and the dad's like, she's got a point, I don't. And yeah, so he's like,

This is yeah, but the government is like bad at their job here, because it's like, you're only going to steal the one laptop, like make it take a few extra things, yeah, confuse the case.

You're going to kill both of them on the same day.

What are you doing? I know, yeah, you're right. It's like making it too easy to piece together. So basically we're talking to Haroun's widow and she's like wed for two years. We risk our lives to help the US government in the first Golf War. That's how we got a is here. And then after nine to eleven everything changed. They handcuffed he Run, they took him away. He lost fifty pounds in this camp. They broke his body and

And hern story is like terrible.

He talks about how they questioned him for twenty hours a day, made him stand naked in front of female soldiers, let him around on a leash, like all these like harrowing torture tactics. Haroun was keeping a journal and Kate wanted him to go public with it, and she was typing it all up on her computer at work, which explains why it got snatched. And they go back to the tape and they watch a piece of it where Haroun says he was grabbing a coffee at a diner

Sorry, A twenty four hour diner is not the poached egg place.

Right, it's over easy, but you don't go poach at so true. So he knows that, like, basically where the like I don't know where all the different guys hang out. And he knows that the she Heights hang out in morning Side Heights and there's eight or nine diners on the west side of morning Side Heights. So like they basically divide it up and they all go to different diners. And then Lake finds the diner and this guy is like perfect. He remembers every single damn thing that happened

Years ago. Yeah, diners are not that cheap anymore.

Well, so not to blast them, but you know when Williamsbury kellogg Diner, fun place I love the waffle fries and a girl cheese, they charged nine to ninety nine for five mazzarella six.

Wow, that's not okay, no no no, no, no, no, no no no, not in my New York, I don't think. So they go to question doctor Sutton, who play who is played by Elizabeth McGovern very. I mean, to me, she's like an actress from my childhood. She was in she's having day because I don't know who the fuck she is. You don't know where she is. Of course

Like our kids play Little League together.

So it's like he's very shocked that, like the family's up and moved out in the middle of the night, Like this is sketchy. It's not like, oh yeah, they had their house on the market for months. So now the Army says he was Special Forces. He had a purple heart, a bronze star. He left the Army in ninety eight and he has become an employee of Helios Defense Industries, which is a British mercenary outfit.

Helios.

Basically what happens is they think is Helios has sent Tomford after Harun. Then after he dies, he kills Kate to cover his tracks. And so they go and they speak to Jack Rexton, who is the head of Helios in New York, and he is a very weird British man, like he has a very like that Britishy villain accent, and he initially is like, I Will, Will, I can't handle a Tom Finds file. And then he's like, okay,

Yeah, Like if you don't think you did anything wrong, why wouldn't you say like, oh, yeah, I interrogated him, you know what I mean? And like I thought you didn't do anything. I thought you didn't torture. So what's the.

Problem, right, I didn't really even catch that she's fully lying here. That's true, Like unless she's tortured so many guys that she couldn't possibly tell them apart and like remember each one of them, Like who knows?

But that's not a good excuse either.

She says her work in Iraq was lawful, humane, and imperative to US intelligence. Okay, so now we see through the window that who's watching her being interrogated is Warner and Huang, and that is not a matchup. You see that much. I was excited to see this duo sparring it up. Huang doesn't think that this woman was directly involved in any torture, but Melinda is not buying it. She's like, hello, hippocratic oath, like first do no harm?

Like what's what?

Like this doctor is completely going against everything that you know the medical profession stands for. And Huang is like, well, when I trick people into, you know, confessing or telling me something about themselves, I'm using my psychological interrogation skills. I'm definitely doing some harm, but it's for the greater good. And then Melinda's like, yo, peep the optopsy, it's not good, Like nothing is that's happened to this man is good.

It's very like who's torturing who?

But it's like, no, trying to make somebody uncomfortable is a little bit different than like tying their hands behind their back for like a weekend.

So now who's paying.

For braid It's funny, what'd you do this weekend? Oh, you know, just hang in, But they really are so they want to know who's paying for Braiden, because you get the feeling that he's kind of like a high priced attorney, and Daddy Craigan is like, my money's on helios. They also bought Tomford and his whole family first class flights to Bahrain, which coincidentally does not have an extradition treaty with the US, so we're not getting him back.

Warner is really invested here.

She's like very grossed out by like this woman's tactics and wants to see this one through because I don't think that's my favorite. I like when any of the detectives, lawyers.

And now here Melinda get invested when they really care about a case.

I like that she's putting all her money in this to the stock of this case. She is invested. So they go to talk to doctor Alvin again at the torture clinic and she explains that after nine and eleven, doctors started using medical records to target physical and emotional weaknesses and they called it torture light. And then you go into She's like, let me just show you some of the people that's like elestra. It's like you get diarrhea, yea torture light. It's like as okay. So they go

So Benson and Stabler go and arrest doctor Sutton.

Bail is set at a half a mill, not a low bail, and although they don't seem to act like there's gonna be an problem paying it, and Stephen Weber aka Bryden, the Attorney, delivers a motion to dismiss, saying it's out of jurisdiction since the torture took place in I Rock, not in New York.

And then our.

Favorite judge, Louise Lewis Lois Louis Lois Preston. She takes Novak's argument into consideration that this is continuous jurisdiction since the tactics were taught in New York and that the victim then died in New York, it's continuous jurisdiction. So Brayden tries to sass Novak, and he's like, you know, he's kind of like, look at you on your high horse. Like his it doesn't it doesn't even work as a joke. He's like, how do you walk down these steps while

They can't walk down steps.

Remember I told a story about Retta and how I was doing this horse and they like forced the horse and then the horse wouldn't leave the stage because it was scared of going downstairs. Okay, that was standing. I don't think it made a lot of sense. He's like, hey, you walking down those stairs on that high horse, or it didn't. It wasn't making a lot of sense. I

Say that these practice has caused this death? And she can't.

You know, It's kind of like what they were saying before in Loophole, like I can't definitively say that this poison gave all these people these illnesses, but like it's pretty likely you just cannot definitively say it. So anyway, that's like the ending of Melinda's testimony, Like she's like, you can't say that, I can't say that, but she looks pissed because she's very positive that this is what

Yeah, I have a cousin, even'n to in year Like, what does a cousin mean?

Nothing?

Yeah, my cousin is a psycho. She blocked me on Facebook and votes for Trump. We're not together on anything, you know. So doctor Sutton is maintaining that beating, electric shock, waterboarding, none of that was part of it of what they did for these interrogations, and she said that's why I'm there. A physician is there to stop things from getting out

Well, yeah, I was about to say, it's like you're trying to be whoopier and artily, but you ain't shit bitch, you know not, Elizabeth McGovern, no shade, But we don't care about what you're saying. You're not touching me or my soul, and I will not care my speech along, even though you think you're being powerful.

Exactly, and she's like, miss Novak, how would you protect our country? I have a son in Iraq? How would you protect him? You think asking nicely is going to get them to tell us when they're flying the next set of plane into our buildings, and it's like, wow, they're just like so pulling on nine to eleven so

It's wild.

So obviously, once the person that's on trial is a hero in the middle of the trial.

It cannot go on. It's declared a mistrial.

She's on the cover of like, you know, the New York Ledger as like the hero of the situation. Bryden is there just like smugging it up to Stabler. He's like in the precinct, He's like, your whole job is about coercion? Are you telling me you've never laid hands? And Stabler, in a rare moment of self awareness and maturity, goes, yeah, I have, and nine times out of ten it was counterproductive. I'm not proud of it. That's a shock. You wouldn't know it by looking at a jacket. You wouldn't know it.

I hope in my lifetime that what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, disappears like the bomb, Like I just like, I can't, I can't.

I mean the phrase the bomb.

Yeah, like we don't hear that anymore, you know, Yeah, why you do.

From really dorky people, but they're trying to be funny.

Yeah, people will be like, oh I still hear people be like that's the bomb dot com. And I'm like, get stop stop. I just hate the what happens in a lot? Yeah really, I go, yeah, it's not good. So basically, right after this medical board review, Warner's walking out and doctor Sutton is right behind her, and she's like, are you happy? A temporary suspension can still ruin a career?

The Oath was written for times like these.

Mike drop, that's a wrap on Doctor Warner and that is Dick Wolf Baby.

Yeah, it really is, like that's the whole. That's what integrity is. Like, that's what's hard. It's like, what are you doing when no one's looking? Or when you don't want to follow the rules? You know, like that is the point? Easy to be a good person when ship's chill?

Yeah, or are you gonna are you gonna share your food when it's wartime?

Okay, totally thank you for that.

And you know, I'll take us along on the on the real crime soon. I mean when we get back from the break soon soon. Who know who's to say when? So this is obviously my favorite. I love when they say not the crime, not this, but I love when they say the crime in the episode when they reference it.

Whatever.

This is more of a not a theory, but it's Abu Grabe, so it's not just one specific thing. It's kind of like a moment in time. I also did not know the difference between going Tanamo Bay and Abu Grabe, So I am.

Really happy that we get to.

Do this episode again shining for that Pulitzer Prize. Yeah, yeah, sometimes listen. So you know I have a New York Times subscription now and the New Yorker I am you know, yeah, yeah, you know, I don't. I there's got to be a website where it tells you everything you're subscribing to, right, I need help.

It's like, I don't need. I don't need.

It's too many subscriptions. Okay, So what was tough about this was for pages. It was like opinion pieces.

It was really hard in the beginning of my research to find facts and like what really happened because everyone just had so many opinions and editorials. So it was like dozens of editorials before I was even able to find some stuff. There's like a Susan Sontad piece and I was like, I don't need this, even though she's cool or whatever. And then I went to YouTube to say, maybe i'll you know, maybe there'll be something on YouTube. And the first thing that was there was an Abu

Yeah?

So that's like that, that's what was hard. It was like the lasting ghosts, and.

Then it was like people that were guilty confessing and I'm like, what the fuck? So yeah, so the New Yorker is where it really happened, and I did feel like Elwood's okay, So now we will begin. Abu Gray Prison was a US Army detention center for captured Iraqis from two thousand and three to two thousand and six. It was twenty miles west of Baghdad, and it's one of the world's most notorious prisons, and it was filled

Maybe it was like maybe that was like the maximum people they had at one time, but fifty thousand rotated through there.

Listen, this is why we're a duo, you know what I mean, This is why we're a duo. So eventually, after all of this eleven soldiers were convicted of crimes relating to Abu Grab and seven of them were from Maryland, so they were all good buds. They were all from the three hundred and seventy second Military Police Company. A number of other service people were not charged, but they did get in trouble whatever that means, like, I don't know if they just got spanked or something by the.

Military, but pretty chill.

So the regime collapsed in Iraq April two thousand and three ish, and so then there's this huge prison and it was deserted and stripped of everything that could be removed, and then coalition authorities had the floors tiled, the cells cleaned and repaired and added toilet showers, a new medical center, and just really HGTV the shit out of this US military prison.

You know.

They took it from gross prison to sexy prison, and by the fall it was filled with several thousand people, and a lot of them were just civilians that were randomly picked up by military sweeps. And these several thousand

So you know who was in charge? How did this all get going?

So June two thousand and three, Janie Karpinski, she was an Army Reserve bridgidier.

This is what I mean. These words are out of control.

She was a general and she was named the commander of the eight hundredth Military Police Bridge and put in charge of military prisons in Iraq. And she was the only female commander in the war zone. But she was like super experienced in tons of other things, but had never run a prison system before. So it's like she had all these credits but for other shits. So the fact that she was put in charge of this makes

And they also had no training in handling prisoners.

So it was just a who's who of clueless people in this person and the group that they had brought in arrived Iraq to do routine traffic and police duties in the spring, and then by October they were ordered to prison guard duty. So these are people that were just going to do chill stuff and they're yeah, it's just no one was really prepped for what this job was. And she was quoted once in the Saint Petersburg Times

Ugh, I just oh, yeah, the rakis love it here. I just loving it. Yeah, it's like a resort.

One report indicated that she would sign orders calling for changes to ship, but then never followed up and no one carried out orders, and there were just tons of security issues, escapees, incidents that led to killings and wounding of inmates.

It was just kind of a free for all.

And if she was there, she could have maybe ensued day to day procedures were being followed and that could have led to like many less cases of abuse. But she did not do that, and a month after that interview when she said that wild thing about them loving the jail, she was formally admonished, suspended, and there was a giant investigation into the Army's prison system that was authorized by Lieutenant General Ricardo S. Sanchez, who was a

Miller.

I know it's Jeffrey, but if you're gonna spell it like that, I'm gonna call you Jeoffrey.

And he arrives my birthday August thirty first, two thousand and three, and until September ninth, he leads a survey team on intelligence, interrogation and detention operations in Iraq. So immediately following that, military intelligence officers ask for control of Tiers one A and one B for interrogation of high value detainees.

Now, I don't know what these tiers.

Mean, but this guy comes and gives a presentation and then they asked to control these tiers. Okay, m hm, well maybe we'll learn about the tears later, we will, okay. So then there's this fifty three page report that's obtained by the New Yorker and it was not meant for public release.

So that's like a huge thing.

And that was completed February two thousand and four, and the conclusions of this report were obviously not good, or we would not know about this case and all those photos. So specifically, between October and December two thousand and three, there was a bunch of instances of sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses at Abu Grabe. And those are all words that I use normally in my life.

Because I okay, so the word is wanton because when you say wanton, it sounds like a Chinese soup. I know, now I want Chinese food.

So far, and then all these fucked up things were done by the soldiers of that three hundred and seventy second Military Police Company that I had mentioned before, and by members of the American intelligence community, and these people reported to the Kurpinski brigade headquarters to that woman. Yeah, and there was a new policy issued in October that was directly from this Miller visit. So then Major General Donald J. Rider, he's an Army Provost Marshall. He assesses

At it, okay, because these probably have the guys that are like the most involved and like probably the most likely to have like high level information and stuff. And that's the thing.

So these military guys are really just playing role playing games, like Jared, does you know what I mean?

And it's like, why it would just.

Be more fun if they found dungeons and dragons instead of the military.

It would have just been better for society.

I just hate that these people's like fun in games is true murder and torture.

I just I don't understand it.

But so some of the things that were found that was happening with all of this was they were breaking chemical lights and pouring phosphoric liquids on detainees. They were

Like this, that's not really good.

And then obviously, you know, one of the famous photos we all probably know is the hooded photos, and it's a man on a box and if he fell off the box, he was told he would be electrocuted.

Yeah.

Also, Abu Grab was filled beyond capacity and the guard force was like super undermanned and really short of resources. There was a large discrepancy between the actual number of prisoners and the number of like officially recorded people, and because of this, there was lack of proper screening. So a bunch of innocent Iraqis were just chilling in there and no one was like organizing people in any good way.

There's one so there's someone with.

A bulcut like holding a leash, and then there's a naked detainee on the ground like being leashed. And the photos are really disturbing to look at. They do make me really uncomfortable and upset because it's just people abusing power authority. It's like the Stanford Experiment stuff where it's like a true or Lord of the Flies, when like disgusting bad behavior comes out of humans and it's just really, I don't know, I've really had some emotions looking at these photos.

I feel like I remember, yeah, I thought I remember looking seeing one where they were forced to do like a pyramid naked or something. Yeah.

The pyramid one we will is definitely oh and you're gonna get to it, okay. Yeah, that one is strange because it's also like the glee and uncare, like these soldiers are treating these people like not human beings at all.

Yeah, it's like it it makes you feel like they're children.

Like when you see a pyramid, You're like, oh, this will be funny. Let's have them do a pyramid, like you know what I mean. It's they are, That's the thing.

A bunch of them are what eighteen to twenty two year olds, right like the military. Yeah, and the person that was holding the leash is an Army PFC Lyndy R. England and she was eventually charged with thirteen counts of misconduct in the case, but she said that she was told to take pictures by her superior so the photos could be used to frighten and demoralize other prisoners.

So I don't know.

I mean, that's the whole thing with military and cops stuff, where it's like I gotta follow orders, so you know, it's real.

That's why they don't want you going to school. They want you to fucking join in. Uh.

There is one photo where two of the soldiers are arm in arm thumbs up, and behind them is the group of the seven naked iraqis forced into a pyramid, and that one was definitely very well known, and they would pose the naked men so it look like they were sucking each other's dicks.

There's also they found.

A room that was just splattered with blood, so then there was like a bloodied body wrapped in cellophane and packed in ice that was just like lying around that no one was taking care of post death in any way, just like a fucking dead body and ice. So the vibe seems like that was all routine and this wasn't just a one night thing for like a soldier's birthday party and they got drunk and put them all in a naked pyramid. You know, this was how they treated

But that's rape.

So it's weird that CNN would write sex Army police for raping prisoners.

This one guy, yes, CNN, this one guy.

Sergeant Frederick once punched a detainee in the chest so hard that the detainee almost went into cardiac arrest. And then in November there was some escapees and commotion around town. Two weeks after that, a man named Colonel Thomas and poppus. He then became like the commander of Abu Grabe and he made the military intelligence responsible for the military police

But you know you wouin Semmu lose him.

So also in November a detainee dies during an interrogation, and then December there's another shooting.

Like this is so much stuff.

So in January two thousand and four, there launches in a giant army investigation into all the reports of abuse that are happening.

And basically we find out.

That a sergeant Joseph Darby, he found it a real struggle.

It was scary for him. He didn't you know, he was.

Really conflicted, but he did report the abuse, and he did it anonymously at first, and then it was all figured out, so there was a whistleblower and then there was like a giant, giant investigation that happened, and he found a cd ROM of Iraqi prisoners being abused. And I know that's a serious statement, but saying cd RAM, that's the first time I've said that in fifteen years. I miss the disc though. I like feeling like Sandra Bullock in the net.

You know. I loved putting a little disk in the laptop and printing it out fast. I like, yeah, yeah, making burning CDs.

I liked that too. I still have all my CDs, but I have them.

Of course you do. Now it's just chords everywhere. Mac keeps taking away holes constantly, like toggles all the time. It's just like dongle, doggles, dingles, dingles.

Okay, so right away, Philibaum, this guy is suspended as commander, and like mentioned earlier, Karpinski is given a memorandum of admonishment and some guy we haven't really talked about, but Captain Donald J. Reese is suspended and he was the commander of the three hundred and seventy second little group. There was an Article thirty two hearing, whatever the fuck that is. No, it's a hearing to get evidence and witnesses to talk, but most of them invoke their Fifth

And I'm like, yes, I know, what are you at?

Definitely see that.

Yeah, hazing's a thing like people do wild stuff as teens. But you know, we obviously don't believe this, but this is a good legal trick of course, Like you would want this to be your lawyer. And the defense attorney for Frederick, Captain Robert Schuck, is like, okay, I mean the army is attempting to have six soldiers atoned for its sins. Like come on, bro, you think these fucking idiots were masterminds, but the photos just like you're bad people,

And so this Frederick guy, and you know, he seemed to cause a lot of issues inside, but he said that the military intelligence teams, which included CIA officers and linguists and interrogation specialists from private defense contractors, were the dominant force inside ABU GRAB. So he's passing the buck onto these secret private defense contractors, which I kind of believe too. I'm sure they were involved. I don't understand how that's even legal. I don't understand how you have

Did I say conscience right? Mm hmm, okay, great.

He said he used stress positions and sleep deprivation and stress positions are meant to exhaust someone, so like hold these books with your arms out to your sides and then you achieve.

Like muscle failure. For these people, and they.

Would handcuff them to sell walls in a position where their hands were placed down between their legs and then their hands were handcuffed behind back, behind them, so like you can you can't sit down or rest. So there was a lot of forced standing, no sleep, arrest and that's.

Like to shock the system.

And this guy he admits to not only hurting people physically, but that they destroyed people emotionally. So Eric Fair was someone that served in the military and was a police officer and then was employed by a private company under contract to the military, so he kind of has perspectives of all the different units going into play, and he

But so there were six soldiers there and.

General Taguba, even though he was pissed at the people acting out orders, he did have the harshest words to the MII officers and private contractors.

He was like, fuck all.

Of you, and you should have all been reprimanded and relieved of duties and go fuck yourself for ordering military policemen who were not trained in interrogation techniques to facilitate interrogations by setting up conditions that were not authorized and not in accordance with army regulations.

Bitch.

So the story breaks on CBS's sixty Minutes too and shows photos of the prisoner abuse at Abu Gray Prison.

And that's like that was the biggest thing.

So after the story broke on CBS, the Pentagon announced some guy, Major General Jeoffrey Miller, will be the new head of the Iraqi prison system, and it's like just.

Don't have a prison there. It doesn't see, it doesn't matter who's in charge. It seems like you're all fucking failing and pieces of shit.

And he was the commander at Guantanamo's Bay Detention Center, which, like I said earlier, are two different things.

Who knew I think a lot of people.

So then again international attention and anger, and President Bush was like, oh, come on, bro, these are the actions of a few. They don't reflect all of us or the conduct of the military as a whole. And it's like this excuses always used, and it is never trap. It's never true. But you know, it's like high levels of leadership did nothing and they all failed, and then all the like poor lower class people got in trouble.

It's just it's too much.

So Rumsfeld, after this, he goes and visits the jail, and then he goes, oh, yeah, these people will be punished, and all these soldiers will get punished, So Grain or Frederick Davis, they all get in trouble. Specialist Jeremy C. Sivets is sentenced to one year in prison for his role in abusing Iraqis. At the prison, he pled guilty

So what the fuck.

It also is fucked because they had civilians in there forever without charges being brought to them, so they couldn't appeal or do anything because they were in there for nothing, and which is very very American and obviously our current bail system what's happening in Rikers and everything is very much that. So it's innocent people should not be sitting in jail. Sorry, is that controversial?

No? No great, no cost sign cost sign. I'm almost done, okay.

So May twenty first, two thousand and four, is when the US releases four hundred and fifty four detainees from Abu Gray Prison. On the twenty fourth, another twenty fourth prisoners leave, and I wonder if everyone around the office was like, oh my god, twenty four people on the twenty fourth, or if they didn't pay attention. But I'm sure someone had to mention it in the office, right, Okay, so that more people plead guilty, you know, Rick pleads guilty to charges of abuse. An Army g guy named

So Rumsfeld, our guy Rumsfeld.

He went on Larry King in February two thousand and five, and he says he would have offered to resign, but Bush asked him to stay best friends forever.

Rumsfeld and Bush definitely have a little necklace that's a heart broken in half, and they each wear one.

Taguba, who like broke this story is not regarded as a hero in some circles in the Pentagon, but go fuck them. And they don't like when their shit goes public. But you did something bad and we deserve to fucking

Not another word. Let's go to the interview.

Thank you for doing all that work, Lisa. It was worth it. And I knew a little bit about Abu Grabe. Now I know a lot and our guest is worth the wait, So stick around. Okay, guys, our guest today has perfected the role of handsome asshole. You might recognize him from TV shows like Wings and Chicago med or as Jack Torrens from the TV mini series of Stephen King's The Shining, but you know him today as the smarmi attorney named Matthew Brayden. Guys, please check out our

You have been working and working.

You are a worker.

I'm at the get portion of my career, which is as your as the sun is setting. Then you get mercy. Mercy, little gigs and it's really sweet because if I was at the height, I would not be sitting here with you. When you are at your height, because you're on the way up, you will not be sitting here with the likes of me and.

Death lesson number one ladies. So you're saying back in your Wings days, you wouldn't even given us the time of day, like this would be.

No Wings days. I wouldn't have gone online. Wait a second, there was no one.

Yeah, there was no online. And we're assuming though you did not audition for this, this was an offer only correct for you. Yeah here, Yeah, that's for you.

Oh that's right, No, that's right, that's right. I forgot. In fact, I went back and I and I watched that episode. Okay, yeah, well.

I watched all of yours because I mean, this one's very fun but then ludicrous and method man, that's pretty cool.

Yeah, how about that? And of course at the time, I was like, who are these guys? Who are they? Who are they?

You know, no idea, but this was exciting. So they called you and they're like, we need you to at that point.

Yeah, I forget what year was, but I think it was post Wings, So I had a kind of a name that that was known, you know, a minor celebrity, and so yeah, I mean I was a guest star that they offered it to, and then I did it and again rewatching it, I was kind of surprised at how good I was, and because I don't like watching myself, I was like, oh, okay, I kind of I did it right, and everybody was good. I mean, it was

Yeah. No, for sure, I mean a lot like you know, our podcast investigates like the true crimes that things are based up, but when they tackle like a major political thing, it does feel like more ambitious. You know.

Well, yeah, we research the true crimes, and I think researching Abu Gray really took a lot out of me. I was like, that was so much reading. I haven't read that much him forever.

But you you're like born and raised New York, right, So were you like, oh, I'm finally doing law and Order. Was it kind of like a box you had to check off or what?

Well? Yeah, look, the thing about being a New York actors that when there's you know, you have Broadway and you have local productions, and you have the great you know in the history especially of television, and so to work in your hometown is really exciting and you know, you feel like you're part of a community or the canon of New York based productions. And yeah, and being on Law and Order was a great box to check off because there are so many great New York actors

You shot on the courtroom steps.

How is it like shooting amongst you know, the people of New York, the.

People of New York.

Uh they animals?

No, no, no, they weren't. No. I think I think it's as enjoyable to watch, for the most part, to watch productions being filmed on the streets of New York as it just to film them. And in a way, uh, I feel like the New Yorkers are allowing you to do it. And so uh even in the moment they're there, they could heckle you, they could disrupt, they could kill you, but they choose, they choose not to do any of those things, and they kind of, you know, enjoy it.

Yeah.

I recently took a picture in Central Park where a lot of dead bodies are found, and I did lay down on the ground and then I was like, oh, fuck.

Yeah, I think we're done here today. Really great talking to you? That's dark?

Can I ask because I looked up your Wikipedia and I know Wikipedia is not always accurate, but it says that your mom was a performer and your dad was a manager of comedians. So were you like, I'm just like, this is my only choice. I'm destined for this life, or like what you know, because you went to the high school performing arts, you must have known at a young age this is like what you were going to do.

I guess I must have unconsciously, but it was never anything that was declared out loud. You know. Another torture metaphor analogy is that you know, I was on this stream and I just was carried along by these currents, and I just found myself doing this, gravitating towards it. It wasn't a show business house, despite those kind of bona fides. But yeah, my mom was a nightclub singer in the fifties when it was really super cool, and my dad was an agent and manager, and it was

Do you ever run into people you went to high school with on jobs?

Well, once in a while. You know, the thing about going to acting school is that there's a huge attrition rate. Even people who are incredibly talented. After a while get buffeted and beaten up by the business or they just think, you know what, I don't want to hear no a billion times in a year. I really can't. I'm going to find something that it makes me happier. Really, But to answer your question, I do, and have over the years, cross paths with people who I went to high school with.

That's great. Well, let's like, let's get into this episode. I'm glad you just recently rewatched it, like tell us a little bit more like this was a cool character. You were this like kind of you know, handsome jerk that comes in like he knows everything right. And then you do three episodes and then I'm assuming your schedule just got too busy because you seem like someone they would have called back for like more episodes. And now you're back in the Dick Wolf universe on Chicago med.

Yeah, not yet, not yet.

I haven't good beta in If you want some Faloffel.

All right, I'm there, I'll go tonight. Well, yeah I did. I was on that show three times, that's right. I think it was an interesting character and a character that I've I've played a lot, you know, kind of the the the jerk, the you know, authoritarian douchebag, and I played him a lot. But as I say, when revisiting that particular episode, I was taken with kind of how slick and well written the character was, and also that

I feel like you could come back anytime.

Well, maybe it'd be great, be hilarious if I came back as that character, even though I'm in the Wolf universe. Now, what if I played that guy, you know, and still played the guy on on Chicago Med?

Why not on Chicago Met? Are you a doctor?

What are what is your part on Chicago Met?

Yeah?

Chicago Mad? Yeah, I'm a an ex naval surgeon who's now at this hospital, Gaffney Hospital. And he's a mess, this guy, and he's a total mess.

Well, they've done Chicago PD crossovers, and I don't put it past them to have like one of their detectives, I don't know, get hurt in Chicago and have a crossover with Med. That would be fun.

This might be too detailed of a question, since you filmed a while ago. Are they like, the suits look very expensive? Do you know if they are expensive?

Well, look, I think the clothing budget for certain characters is pretty good. They this isn't a series that scrimps. Yeah, they they they pay everything they need, They pay top dollar for their clothing. They don't, they don't go on the cheap. I really can't remember.

Yeah, a lot of times we talked to female actors, They're like, oh, yes, it was this brand, it was this brand, like they remember their was better.

But well, again, as a younger guy, I really didn't care about that stuff. And I should have because right now the fact is I'm on this show. All I wear are scrubs. Yeah, and now I'd love to wear some fancy, cool suit that I would try to buy at a discount or even steal. I stole a suit once.

A yeah, well on America's Next Time Model, I learned you have to ask and then maybe if you could buy it and then off a set.

But I have stolen shoes before.

If if I guess I really did like something, they they would probably try to get a discount for me. But I don't. While while that's my ulterior motive, I don't come right out and say, hey, can I pay less for the suit? I say, I really like this suit. Is there a way for me to purchase it? And if they are, if they like me and I'm incredibly likable, they'll say, you know, we'll make a little deal. But once, I actually did a miniseries a long time ago where I played John F. Kennedy and I stole a suit.

You know, Well, how was so in this episode?

You represent Elizabeth McGovern's character, and she's an actress I've been watching my entire life as well.

How was working with her?

She was great? I mean she terrible, mean to everybody. She would kick the craft service people. She was fantastic. And the thing is that obviously she hadn't done Doubt n Abbey at this point, and so she was I think in a period where she was in a way coasting between gigs, which is what happens to actors of

I also felt like you had a lot of chemistry with Diane Neal, who plays Casey Novak.

The lawyer. That's why I thought they might keep you around.

You guys had a it seems like you had es.

Well That's interesting to say that because we stayed friendly years after that show. And I remember even during the shoot, we discovered that we had the same sense of humor. And she's really twisted and funny and yeah, you know, would probably lie down in Central Park where people were killed.

You know, that type of thing she's been.

Well, there you go, So then you know what I'm talking about. So we hit it off like crazy. Yeah, but who knows, you know, there's like I said, there are a lot of moving parts and uh, and I realized at the end of the day that the actors are most actors are kind of disposable, you know, We're just part of the machine. And I've learned after decades now that if a good job comes along, like the one I'm currently on, hop on. You know, it's like

Yeah, well, what, like you've worked on so many sets? How is it like joining a show and then piecing out like is there.

A rhythm to it? You know what I mean? When has you been a regular on so many where you're there for many like seasons, and then you're do some where you're just in and out.

So right now I sort of have it down, and it's it's never not exciting, it's never not a little anxiety producing. But I literally, just the other day I was working with a young actor who'd done some theater but had not done any TV, and he I saw it. I saw him kind of be lost for a second and not freaking out lost, but he didn't know why.

I don't know, man, You're you're there. Doesn't look like there's that many gaps on your IMDb, like you have a You've done a lot, and I want, I do need to point out one of your favorite roles of mine is that my daughter loves the show Puppy Dog Pals, and I was really excited to see that you have voiced many, many characters on songs, the whole thing. Yeah, oh my god. The theme song of that show gets

No, it's not connected to pap Patrol.

The puppy dog pills are their own thing. But you have done a bunch of voiceover, but you've also done like movies, TV, like you've been in a scripted podcast, theater, musicals, like do you have, like anything, what's on your career bucket lists that you like haven't done yet? Or are there like roles dream roles that you've always wanted to play either on the stage or the screen or Yeah.

I mean a lot of the the roles and there weren't really that many that I had wanted to play. I've kind of aged out of and so I have and and what I really would like to do, I think is do some more theater in New York or Chicago for that matter, and and find a kind of I guess critical acceptance. Uh, and that that has been a little elusive.

Uh.

You know, I'm I'm I must be doing something right because I'm working a lot that said, I do aspire to do something that is really moving and and something that people connect with. In fact, it was my hope and still is my hope that the character that I'm currently doing on Chicago Med kind of meets those requirements to a certain degree, because he's a guy that has PTSD, He's doesn't like himself. He's the type of guy that is broken, of which you know, there are many broken

There's plenty of sure.

Funny moment, we were talking to Laura Bananti and we asked her about the role and she goes, listen, I've done it. And we were like, yeah, because she did, my fair lady, And she's like, I've just kind of done it. We don't know, I don't know what to tell you.

So we did love that.

Well.

I was gonna say, I love the way you talk about all this, but I want to know, have you ever been starstruck?

Have you ever? Even though you know all these.

Always always, and in fact, I always ruin any potential relationship I have with somebody who I'm a fan of you know, you think, yeah, I'm in the business too, and I can, I can. I should be able to hang out and chat with these people. It takes a great effort for me not to go, oh, you are great, and as soon as you do that, it's ruined.

Yeah.

Then then I'm then I'm all the way down here and they look at me like, Okay, it's one of those guys. I mean, I once, I did work one day on a film with Jeff Bridges, and I really worked hard to not be starstruck, and it paid off because he was really cool and he was everything that I wanted him to be. But I was like starstruck afterwards. Afterwards I probably had a chance to maybe reconnect with him, but I was too afraid. I was too afraid. But yeah,

Yeah, but I'm I humiliate myself in front of drag.

Weeen introduced me to a drag queen and I went, I just like couldn't handle it. But anytime I, like have worked on a set, I always wait till I'm wrapped because I'm always just somewhere for a day, you know, And so I wait till the end and then I go like, it was really cool working with.

You or something like that. But I try to Actually that's not true.

I'm mine. Yeah, I'm always really excited. And I grew up going to the movies every week. We loved entertainment. Tonight in my house we watched the Awards shows, and so I don't actuade it, like I'm excited by all of it. And I like seeing people, even if it's just on the street or I get to meet them or with friends, like I always get really jazz.

I like it.

There's a party that I go to every year, and I don't go to a lot of parties. I have a very I've got a very small life, you know, And I really do and and but and I'll drop a name, you know. Sarah Silverman is a friend of mine, and she has this insane party and it's on the roof of a bill thing that she lives in. And at this party is every cool person in comedy in film, and there's some politicians there and it's not a high

Myself because Sarah Silverman does that to me.

I've been in small parties with her green room and I don't act normal, like I like, she liked one of my videos recently and I took a screenshot of it, like I try to around her boat.

Yeah, it's impossible. It's hard. And look, we're friends. We're friends that I can call her up or I'm friends, and I don't quite often because alluding to what I was saying before, I you know, I don't. I feel like it's it's wrong for me because I'm still too much of a fan. I still can't get over the fact that, huh, I'm sitting near to Sarah Silverman too. It's too weird. It's too weird.

Well wait, I would like I would love to ask really quickly, what do you get recognized for the most? We love to ask people that. And you've done so much, so like do people know you from? I'm sure it depends on the age, like people know you from Wings or they know you from Thirteen Reasons or like what what do people what do you get the most?

I would say, Uh, it's a toss up between Wings and then the Shining. I did a Shining miniseries in the nineties and uh, and then I get the occasional stray person that says, hey you, I loved you and Party Down. Party Down was a really funny show. Yes, or Thirteen Reasons Why I saw I I have crossed enough demographics that I get recognized for a lot of stuff. But I would say still mostly Wings. Oh and Psych. I did one episode of this series Psych one.

People love Psych.

I mean, okay, you know, I just one. I was probably twenty minutes of screen time, and I get I get deluged. Wow, relatively speaking, you know, it's not really day luge, Like one moment, I'll be talking to you in an hour from now. I'm dumpster diving so this is it's all. I have to be very philosophic about it.

No, this was awesome. This was fun. As I think we this is great. But Steve, thank you even I just called you Steve like we're old friends. Steve, thank you so much for talking to us. This was amazing pleasure. That was great. He was great. Yeah, we're gonna possibly try to hang out with him in Chicago. We'll see. Yeah. No, I definitely told Caro.

I'm like, we are telling him where he's coming to Old Tom Pup with us. Whether he likes it or not. He is coming to our show. He's coming to West you know, the pub.

Well, this episode comes out half the update people if.

We'll have to tell you if we hung out or not. But I don't know. It was just fun and that's that.

What are we to learn? What are we learning? What did we learn from today's episode? Lisa took us through the whole I mean I learned a lot because I didn't know a lot about Abu Grabe specifically. I mean I knew the general points, but Lisa took us through all of the finer points of the Abu Grabe travesty. And yeah, I guess it's like, uh, we've all we we learned over and over. We can't give people power over other people that way because they will abuse it,

Yeah, all about the Milgram you know. But I was so lucky because I got to like transfer, call it whatever.

I didn't have to actually take statistics. I tried my way out of it, but.

It's good because I was getting deep, like I couldn't pass it. It's like that's not what my brain is gonna do. I got like a C in statistics. It was just not for me, like I could not figure it out. It was like I but I had to take a math class to graduate. So that was my class, and my math major friend was like, just take it with me.

I'll help you.

And then of course it's like people that are good at math can't like that doesn't necessarily mean they're good at helping teach it to you.

She was like, why don't you get this? And I'd be like, because I don't.

She'd be like, oh, because for me, it's just obvious, and I'd be like, that's the problem. I probably shouldn't have taken a class with you. But yeah, fucking statistics. That was when I told you that. I told them I had a break down so I didn't have to do a test because I was like, this looks like I'm looking at Greek like I cannot understand. Yeah, because you love a chart.

So I'm a little bit shocked. But yeah, statistics was so hard. And in Iowa was like at eight am, like there was just no way. I thank god, I dropped out. There was just no way I could do it.

I love with all your transferring you somehow moved around that that's amazing.

Yeah, yeah, because I got out because I couldn't understand. I just couldn't understand it. And that's that. And like do I blame my brain, my effort or the teacher? I don't know, but either way, it was not penetrating through this membrane.

Not not gonna do it. You know what, what's filled with my brain?

You know, just like what outfits the Nanny War on the TV show, that's what my brain is filled with.

Just with a bird print outfits. Yeah, why isn't there a fucking degree and what outfits the nanny War? Come on?

Well, my favorite is when I started talking about in like moments from the Arthur TV show cartoon out one of our live shows, and no, even people that watched it, and you finally were like, no, not your.

Psycho, Like, of course you watched it. Not everyone remembers, you know, you were like you never watched Arthur. I was like, yes, I did, but I'll remember it like scene for scene.

Yeah, but TV free Week was a big it was a big episode. You probably just remember. Oh, you know what's also good about Halloween? They play all the Simpson's Treehouse of Horrors, oh and FXX all day and night, so.

I remember that. I always remember Bart being like the Raven nevermore, never more, the Edgar Allen Poe.

So we really but honestly, the Hippocratic oath means something the military is not good. Don't don't do that to people. Yeah, I don't know what else to say. Yeah, you know, and I just feel sad for Haruna boss. You know, that's that's the saddest of it all, to like escape and then be fucking face to face with your person.

It's just scary. We've had a few of those, were people in SVU where they run into their old to like the very first episode of the show, isn't it the very first episode? The pilot of SVU is like like people running into their captors from another land.

And I didn't listen to this and I probably won't, but thank god my friend Julia does. But I guess Rachel Maddow has a new podcast about American Nazis and like how we really protected a lot of the Nazis here throughout World War Two and that's like whoa really Yeah that they like were speech writers for a lot of the people in the government and infiltrated the government in really big ways.

So there's a Rachel Maddow series on that.

Damn, I gotta go check.

But that kind of I started.

Kind of not loving when when we were in Alabama, there's a stadium built up named after like a Nazi engineer, and it's like, yeah, can you just change it?

Yeah?

Really, I don't know.

Yeah, that's the thing.

That's what's wild about all these people who want to have these Nazis on their show.

Like in the future, I mean, or will be melted.

But in the future it's not gonna be like, oh, well, he wasn't a Nazi, he just had Nazis on his radio show, like that's you're like, these people realize that they are gonna be remembered as Nazis or if they really just or they don't care and they are Nazis, or they don't get it, like I wonder.

Yeah, huh, I don't know. My brain is mush today. I don't love COVID. I just love talking. I don't remember anything. We love doing this show and we hope you enjoyed this. Yeah, let's get into what would Sister Peg do for this? That's our weekly segment where we point you guys to an article, a book, an organization, something to give you more information about what we touched on in today's episode.

And this week we wanted to point you to.

A book called The Ballad of Abou Gray by Philip Gorovich and Errol Morris. And Errol Morris is like a famous documentarian who's done like The Thin Blue Line and a lot of other things. And the book is based on Errol Morris's interviews with the Americans who took the pictures and appeared in the pictures that were associated with the jail. And he's, you know, an Academy Award Woman

I just saw a thing that says, every day I wake up feeling I failed sleep funny, I feel that. Next week we'll be doing Unorthodox Season nine, Episode thirteen. That's Peacock Hulu. We're obsessed with all of you. Come to our live shows. We love to meet you, and thank you so much for listening to That's Messed Up an SVU podcast.

Thank you, guys, We love you. Until next week.

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