Goliath w/ Amy Landecker

Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

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These are our stories, done done Yay.

Another episode of That's Messed Up an SVU podcast. My name is Lisa, Welcome, my name is Kara, and very exciting news. We are coming to you very not live, but from the exactly right studios for the first time.

First time in the studios.

We're here, we're face to face, we're recording in the same room, which you guys know we don't really do.

So this is exciting.

No, I wonder, I wonder what will happen. I know we're going to explode.

You're in LA. How's it been going. Well?

Remember that podcast guy that I talk about the porn podcast. Yeah, he was at the comedy store ooh, And I walk out on the main room and he's there with all his friends and he basically jumps up and goes.

You're my favorite comedian, and oh my god.

And then outside I was like, yeah, I'm obsessed with the stuff you do, and he goes, I can't be my favorite comedian.

Listens to my podcast, and I was like, this is crazy.

But then I just I follow him so intensely usually, but Brian Callin's on his podcast, so I was like, I guess the bar's not too I for his favorite comedian, and you'll probably be on it, right, Yeah, well yeah, I'll be on it.

That's not the thing. I just don't like that he had a rapist on it.

But we didn't know that. Sorry, I guess I didn't know that. Oh yeah about him?

Yeah, he's in the Delia the crew. Yeah, I think he broke down in tears being like my friend.

Oh god, but so so me. Yeah, maybe of a male comedian. It was so fun and we like chatted for a really long time. That's awesome. Wait is that say the name of the podcast pillow Talk pillow Talk? Is that where him and his girlfriend have sex with people afterwards? Or is that a different one? No, that's a different one. It's a different one that's called I don't remember what it's called, but it's Lena the Plug in Adam twenty two.

Right, right, right? How could I forget Lenna the Plug? What a name?

So it's different, but they are they are rich, they're all rich. How my brother was in town. My little niece and nephew were in town. I watched four kids. I took four kids to get ice cream by myself, like, and my body hurt the next day from pushing like one hundred and twenty pounds in a stroller.

They're all in one stroller, three of.

Them are, and then Rosie was on a bike. Jeez, yeah, I didn't even know there's right, I guess there's the.

Basket in the bottom, and one of them just sits there, okay, in the bottom, and then one of them sit stands on a kickplate, and then one of them goes in the top seat.

It's wild. Do they fight over which position they're going to be in? NonStop? Does everyone want to be in the basket? No, they all switch what they want to do.

I want the kickblade, I want to be in the seat up top like the It's a war every time, every time. But I took them to some sweet ice cream, and then they got to go on like a spooky walk through the neighborhood because it got dark. But you know, my niece and my nephew are like a little bit more scared than my kids. My kids are into Beetlejuice and Nightmare before Christmas.

So they were there, were there are.

In my neighborhood, multiple twenty foot Jack Jack Skellington's that talk.

And so my niece was like, and I was like, it's not real.

It doesn't have a brain or heartbeat, like, and I was really trying to like get out to chill.

But we had a great time. And then I took them to there was a big street.

Fair in your old neighborhood, my neighborhood, and took them to that, and yeah, just been getting ready for tour. You know, well, when this comes out, we'll be already on the road.

We'll be halfway through.

So I guess, wait, let me just look when this baby comes out, it's uh, you can still check us out tonight in San Francisco and tomorrow in Portland.

Come see us guys.

So yeah, just been pumping that, pumping out the SVU material out.

That's it.

I haven't done like anything fun or interesting.

I hate to say.

I was with a friend and he was saying, like the types of girls that you would bring to horror nights I guess at Universality. Yeah, he was like, you know, they're dangerous. He goes the white girls. They that love Halloween. They have Jack Skellington, little tattoos, and then he goes and then it's the Mexican girls who love it.

It's full black and.

Grace Leaves of Frankenstein and like just really classic.

And he was just like talking. He's like, I don't even take girls there anymore. I can't trust Halloween girls. He's like, if you watch horror movies all year round, I can't be with you.

Yeah.

So I guess he's been scarred by a lot of horror girls with tattoos that demand horror night.

Says dates.

Yeah, and it's expensive too.

That's an expensive date, and I hope it's deep into the relationship because it's a lot of waiting around.

I've gone to horror nights twice.

It would have to be also like a date where you really want to spend a lot of time talking because you're just waiting in long ass lines the whole time unless you spring for the fast pass, and that's more money.

It's an expensive date.

Yeah, but that's what that's.

Yeah.

I always good people onlines canoodling.

Yeah, yeah, and then like I'm scared, I don't know if somebody. When I went, Jared was more scared than I was, and he's like the horror guy.

But I've never been to Horror Nights or like a theme partner during Halloween.

I've never done that.

Horror Nights is fun, but it's freaky, like there's people walking the streets that just come up to you with a chainsaw. Isn't it Isn't it isn't a themed every year? Well, no, they'll be like one house or whatever that's like a big current movie. Usually, Like when I went one year, it was US and it was like the exact house from US. And then when I went last year, it was like Last of Us was like the big themed house. Here it's a quiet place. Oh okay, that makes sense.

You know, I'm very interested.

I want there to be a docuseries or a scripted series about these.

People you don't care about, like the Disney people. You just care about the Horror Night's seasonal employees.

The seasonal people, because I feel like they've got to be they got to be one because we're in California. I'm just assuming they're actors. They want to be actors. Yeah, they're electors, but like they're happy they're working, but they're not happy to be there.

Yeah.

Yeah, I just want to know what drinks look like after, if there's drama about getting different parts, I'm interested.

I'm interested in what's going on with them.

They're also what's the training they have to go They have to go up and swipe at your face, but they get this close to.

You without touching you, Like, is there training for that?

I bet because they can't touch anyone.

Well, I guess.

Jimmy Fallon was on Watch What Happens Live and he created a haunted house at Rockefeller's Center. Oh, and the bartender was one of the zombie page. She was dressed like a page, but she just kept going, oh my god at the bartending position.

That was fun. Oh.

I saw Sugar Daddy. I saw Sam Morrison's show in Beverly Hill.

Oh, how was it?

It was really good and such a cool set, and it's going to Broadway, so look out for it.

I really loved it.

Funny.

Yeah, it's about kind of the love of his life dying and then getting diagnosed with diabetes type one.

Yeah, and it's really funny. I liked it. That's great. That's great.

It's a really cool set. And we got to touch it after because we're VIP.

Oh nice.

But then we went to the cheesecake factory.

I saw that on your Instagram. You did well, maybe Jared did.

I was like, you and Jared at the cheesecake factory and I was like, I'm glad you got to go.

He was very against it because it ends up being expensive anyways, So you could have just had a great meal somewhere, but instead, like I ordered salads and then Sam was like, is there salad salty? And then Jared in his head was just like, we're at cheesecake factory. What did you think is gonna happen?

But I got a coconut cheesecake and it was really good. That sounds solicious. Oh good, I love it. Coconut cheesecake.

Cheesecakes are good there. But yeah it is. But Chilies is having a moment. Have you seen no, Oh, Chili people are going back to Like, Chilies is having a moment. People are talking about the little dipper thing. They're going dates like it's kind of yeah, Like I said.

No that there's one where my in my husband's hometown and we never have anywhere to eat there, so we'll head back to Chili's.

I wonder if you'll like it. There's always something I can have a chili.

Yeah, you'll have not choses.

Yeah, I wasn't worried about that.

I just I just remember when I went to Chili's as an adult, I was not happy. Yes, but maybe something's changed. Maybe it's like Dominoes and they all got new recipes.

They've got like a five star chef to start, like, didn't talk Go Bell at one point have like a very like high end Mexican food chef like doing their menu and stuff.

Maybe Chili's did that. I don't remember this Taco Bell era.

I remember there was like a thing where they were like we asked so and so for like you know, and like he had inspired, inspired things on the menu. Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong place, but I thought it was Taco Bell Did you see the video of Nicole Kidman and Samahayak and what are your thoughts?

What are they doing?

No?

I haven't.

Oh okay, Oh my god, this is so rare. Are you guys clocking that I saw one thing on the internet before? Lisa, I'm so excited. They're at like a fashion week, but I don't think it's New York because

And I saw it on Instagram.

I was like, oh wow, And you know, it's like I think Balenciaga is owned by the company that her Salma Hayek's husband is like the president of, so she probably thinks she's, like, you know, the first lady of the Balenciaga Show and Nicole Kidman I read on page six they had a like a lip reader who like was telling you what they were saying to each other, and it wasn't actually nothing was that sassy that was said, but like the body language is very Nicole Kidman is

The camera like I don't like I don't want that.

Yeah, And also though I read somewhere somebody said it's Nicole.

Kidd but then like Nicole Kidman is doing this to her at the end too, yes, and then she goes to say hi to Katie Perry, who you don't you might not notice because I didn't notice on first look is like right behind them and kind of with them, so but I heard that it's also Nicole Kidman's first public appearance since her mom suddenly passed like last month. So she might have just been like, she's wearing black,

So but kind of wild to see two A listers tangle like that.

I'm also just happy these lip readers have come out of what works and really help us. I also just saw that Taylor Swift just announced that she's going to have a book like an Era's Tour book, and it's going to come out on Black Friday at Target. I just texted the niece and nephews that we have to go to Target on Black Friday.

We'll see if they go. One of them hast to drive me.

Yeah, because I think that specifically is going to bring a lot of people to that Target.

Yeah, I'm going to go to Target. I'm going to be part of the consumer problem. You have to like hit a person working there. You really have to get into it. You have to do the whole thing.

And I will.

Where's the tailor book?

Out of my way?

Just pushing children out of the way teens. I guess maybe we can order online, but I want the book. I want to be a part of it. You know, I'm new like anything that I can be live a part of.

But the concert's coming in. I still have an outfit it.

What do we I want Midnight's era look, but I just can't find it.

Yeah, Midnight, you know I'm not I'm not gonna be much of my help. What's Midnights? I thought I want.

Paternalons, stars blues. I want dark blues and stars and Moon's Okay, that's my inspo. But I haven't really been able to find something because I don't want.

To be I need to be comfortable. Yeah, and that's that's the hard crossover. Well, I'm sure now that we've talked about it, something exactly like that will come up in your feet on Instagram because.

Well I did go on Selki and I was like, maybe Selki will have like some star stuff and that's their new collection, like the home screen said star crossed looking for a place in the cosmos.

Wow, But I'm not wearing.

A giant corseted gown like I'm not, and I don't want anything too long and like I don't know, I don't know what I'm gonna do, and I can't believe it's like.

A week, like a month away. I know something's gonna come together for you. Hey, you had a you had a bucked up outfit for your special four days before it taped, and look what you did.

So I have faith that you're gonna find something good.

I'm trying to think if anybody's listening, I'm certainly not the good resource for this, because verone's listening that knows where Leasa can get a good Star Moon fun outfit for Taylor dm.

Us, did your brother have fun at that wedding?

Yeah, they were like a little annoyed because like three weeks before the wedding, suddenly the bride was like, there's a color palette, like I want everyone to wear earth tones, which, by the way, like many people don't look good at earth tones. It's like mauve beige, like browns, you know

It's embarrassed.

I just feel like more adults need to find hobbies and where they have recitals and events and are celebrated so they can get back down to reality during their wedding.

And I cannot push it all onto the wedding.

Yeah, Like I just get attention almost every day of my life in an extreme way. So to me, I'm like I would I'm not desperate for this, yeah, but like people like it's just like, get.

Get down to earth. Yeah.

I was just saying weddings are like birthday.

Parties for adults now that like, but when you're five, like when you're like I want this and I want this and I want that, and if it's not the right thing, I'm freaking out like it's like a five.

You're regressing when you have a wedding. I feel a lot of people.

But yeah, he had a good time. It was great to see them. Oh I'll tell you about my phone.

Okay, I had because people always are like New York LA, like what's the vibe? And so I have walked in La shock. I like did some thirty forty minute walks home. But I was just walking between comedy clubs on sunset, so like a fifteen minute walk and a man just starts being like I'm gonna fucking shoot you in the head.

I'm gonna fucking.

Kill you, just screaming, and then but no one's around.

That's the thing.

If someone screams at you in New York or is violent in some way, there's a bodega you can obviously not all neighborhoods and like there are like more quieter places, but people are out and about and walking and so even if something happens, there's like alert.

Kind of or we're all in it.

But yeah, I'm just alone on sunset for ten minutes with a man going behind me going I'm gonna fucking kill you, and I just have to be like, well, this is how I go or not and that's that.

And so it's just I know, it's scary, Like I've actually had cars like slow down and be like what are you doing when I'm walking in La, Like when I've walked in LA before, especially like at night, They're like are you okay?

Like You're like, I'm just trying to walk. Yeah.

So then so I got picked up to go to this meeting and my driver was incredible. He's lived in LA since the seventies, and so he was telling me. He goes, my mom actually lived in that place. I just picked you up. And then I was across the street and then we drove past. He goes, oh, down there is the Menendez brother's house. And I go, oh, bro, you've been here. You were here for the night stalk

Was four weeks old. Oh my god.

So I'm going to see if maybe SVU did something with it. But I just have like this great conversation with a guy where our interests, you know, overlapped. And so then I'm going back and I call another car and it's a girl, and usually I'm happy when it's a girl.

I'm like, oh, great, a girl.

Yeah.

I get in and she goes, oh, do you live in this neighborhood? And when we're in Beverly Hill was I go oh no, I was just meeting someone. I go, what about you? She says, oh, I live near where I'm dropping you off. I go, oh, cool, are you born and raised?

La?

Normal question? She does not like this, so all of a sudden she goes, well where are you from? And I go, oh, the Chicago suburb. She goes, well where's your family from? Huh, where's your lineage? Like that kind So then it hits me like that's probably why, like how she interpreted my question of like where's your culture? You know, like what are you? So I go, oh, I'm from the former Soviet Union. She goes yeah, like

Just like, oh, I get where.

I get that.

I go, I just meant like, you don't meet a lot of native there's a lot of child But she's now activated through I might straight up. We start talking about travel or being welcome at places, and then every time I try to agree with her, being like, oh, yeah, I see where you're coming from like this, she'd be like, no, not like that, because this and that, And in the few minutes that we were in the car, it was Thailand's LGBT and I don't like that, and I go.

And then later she goes, I feel like you're I.

Go, I don't.

I go, I've had enough. And she goes, I think it's okay to disagree and argue. I go, but I'm not interested in engaging with you at all. Yeah, And she goes, well, why I don't think you liked my comment about this?

I go, that wasn't it.

I think you're homophobic and I hateful bitch. Like I didn't say bitch. I'm like, I just don't fuck with people that are homophobic. She goes, what, I don't like that Thailand's gay and I don't want America to be gay. And I don't want my brother to turn into a girl. And I believe in.

The nuclear family.

And she goes, aren't you Jewish? Jews aren't for gay people. She goes, I believe in modesty. That's why I like Muslim culture. All you people, and like starts going off. She brings up the Holocaust. She goes, as a Jew, what you feel safe in Europe?

Oh my god.

And then when I.

Said something, I said something about, like, oh, you know, I could usually tell someone's like Russian and Jewish. She goes, I'm Jewish. You probably couldn't tell. I go, that's not always. She goes, see it, you're wrong.

And I was just like, oh my god.

Yeah, I'm just saying I usually could tell someone's Russian from a mile away, like, and she's just and I go, I'm not.

I don't need this in my life.

Just drive, bitch, shut your fucking mouth, like is what I was thinking. But I think she was unhinged, Like I don't think she's a well human in her brain. And anyway, like, how in ten minutes are you bringing up Holocaust? That you hate trans people, you hate gay people, that you think women are sluts and should be more modest like in Jewish and Muslim religion, and it's like Jews aren't against gay people in any capacity. There's nothing that's like, it's the Christians. You can stick to your

Like what are you talking about?

Right?

It was wild and you're driving in LA like that's so crazy and its And then finally she goes and she said she lives near where you're staying, which is you won't be there anymore West Hollywood.

Yeah, yeah, you don't want to be whired you live there.

But it's also like so gay, yeah exactly, Like we're driving through like near high tops and she's like, fuck gay people. The crosswalk is rainbow like it's and then she goes, well, I didn't like your question asking if I'm from here, like if I'm American or not, and I go, that's not it. I just had a cool driver that was here from the seventies and he was teaching me a lot about LA and it was from here.

And also if you asked if I'm from Beverly Hills, yeah, like what are we doing?

But that's what I mean. She's like, like she's not well because it wasn't even a normal convo like oh we disagree or whatever. It was just like antagonistic, like she just wanted to fight. And then even after I said that, I go, I just had a great driver that I appreciate, like I liked, and she was like, oh, it's kind of like when I was in Coney Island and Marshall.

Was just talking about the Olympics.

And I was like, I don't care about America, but I love when they beat France. And this woman goes, if you live here, you better like it, and Striten it going on this pro America thing and Marcia goes, we're talking about the Olympics and she went, oh, and it's like that it's like this lady just went off.

And I'm like, I'm not even from here.

Everybody's so hot to pop off right now. It's it's a tense time. It's like drive the car, like shut up. Yeah, And eventually I'm the I'm the passenger. I told her maybe three or four times I wanted to stop talking to her. I go, I don't, I just don't need this. And I told her, I go, I'm having a great day. It's a beautiful day outside. I go, I just don't need Yeah, I don't need to be quiet, and she wouldn't. I kept going into my phone being quiet. She goes,

That, like weird. This is not a friendship. Oh my god, it was. It was Wow.

I can't believe you had such kind of greatest and worst uber drivers of your life on the same day.

I look a cute dad.

We talked about sleeping earlier and how sleep's important, Like, I don't know, I've had very normal interactions and I was really shocked by this woman and how she got her tesla.

But they don't even care you get raped.

Lifter ubers I don't know if they're actually gonna do anything thing about somebody like being fully unhinged. Yeah, I don't know if they do a mental health screening or anything for the people to drive.

No, but like you're talking about the nuclear she goes, I just believe in the nuclear family, whatever it is. And it's like, well, clearly not, because you can have a nuclear family with gay people.

Yeah, Like what are you talking about?

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah, what does your brother want to be trans? Like, what's the what are you talking about? Like, no one's forcing him to be trans. It was just it was unsettling.

A low information voter.

It sounds like, well, let's get going on our episode. We have a great guest today. We've got a great episode. Just a reminder, you still can get tickets to San Francisco and Portland at That's messed up live dot com and you can also there you can shop our merch check out our promos, you know, get all kinds of information about us. But let's start the episode. It's gonna be a good one. Okay. We are doing Goliath season six,

First thing I see.

She is an amazing actress from Transparent, she was in a Serious Man. She's also done Law and Order and Criminal Intent, and she's in another episode of us View called Rotten from season four that we have not done yet. So she's Missus Callahan. They just keep calling her Missus Callahan. And she's telling the detectives that she never thought things would get this far. Things have been getting bad for months.

But also, missus Callahan's an old lady name. This is a misnaming.

Isn't that from like a movie where they're like, sorry, missus Callahan.

Or something like that?

Is like an Adam Sandler movie thing or something, Yeah, it's you or It Takes Two. I think it's from It Takes too is it?

I don't know, But if I get this ray, I will feel pretty good about myself.

Call Away, No, they're call Away.

Oh Callahan is in Tommy Boy, which is another Tommy Callahan.

Isn't it?

Isn't it Casey Callahan? Auto parts? Yeah?

Or brake pads? Yeah.

So she's like, my husband, Tommy, he's changed. He was sweet and loving. Now he gets mad about everything and he takes it out on me, you know, las She said, I never thought it was going to get this far. He was going off last night about the neighbors. He thinks they're spying on them, but she's like they're eighty, Like they're not fucking spying on us. They fought, he started hitting her, he ripped her clothes off, and then he threatens to get his gun if she doesn't do

You drive your own car. We'll follow.

And then as they walk off, Officer Callahan just pushes over the shopping cart belonging to the unhoused woman filled with cans, just as like a show of look how tough I am.

It's really aggressive.

Benson and Stablers share a look like wow, what a sweety pie. This is gonna be a lot of fun. And then it's the credits and it's a great cash shot. It's the whole gang plus Wang and Novak. It's fun. I like this crew. Then at the top of Act one, at the precinct, Callahan looks like a psycho robot. He's like, I don't know why my wife would say I raped her detective.

That isn't true.

And then Stabler's like, maybe it's a misunderstanding, and he's like still robot, like I perceived nothing unusual about her behavior or emotional state. And Stabler's like, wow, your training is kicking in, Like you're in cop mode. You're going polite, professional, detached. And Stabler's like, I mean, come on, she's making this whole thing up like that doesn't really track. And he's giving this guy's giving Stabler as Willem and Alaska would say, nutche he's giving nothing.

Okay.

We cut to Olivia with the female partner vile and she I'm sorry, Veil, not the vile files. We cut to Olivia with the female partner veil and she goes, well, one time he slept his wife in the heat of an argument after she hit him multiple times. It's like, already I'm not liking this woman. I'm like, I don't really care how many times she hit him. He's a huge cop, she's a tiny woman. And she says ultimately, the wife decided not to press charges, and Live is like,

Like, oh, bad badge bunny.

Yeah, but that's a good one.

I don't know, but it was like it was like people who love their guns or something like that.

So it was like I was I.

Would there was something on, you know, Urban Dictionary, but it wasn't immediately that, So I was like, what a wild thing though, to be like, I love cops so much, like I like put a bit, could put a.

Gun in my mouth. I love it so crazy.

I mean, there's people that are obsessed with serial killers, so yeah, there's something out there for Everybody's a fucking lid for every pot.

He goes, that's why she's doing this. It's to punish me, and I deserve it, and he looks very freaky. He's like still very robotic, and Stabler's like, well, what about the hitting, and he denies that, and Stabler goes, well, your partner's over there spilling to my partner right now, So back to the ladies. Benson's like, are you sleeping with him? And Mail goes, I'm a lot more likely to have an affair with you, Detective Benson.

So she's a lesbian.

I'm proud and she is part of Lesbie Strong with bab Stuffy. She says, Jamie and things. And this proves how emotionally unstable she is. What about Tommy, was he pumped to be a dad thrilled? She says he can handle stress, He's been through worse. She's like, what do you mean? And the partner goes, he was in the army reserve in Afghanistan. And Benson's like, oh, if that's what affected him, is that maybe what affected him? And Veil just kind of shifts her eyes, and so Benson

It depends on who you talk to. And then this is the part that's wild.

Craigan goes, so, who do we believe and Benson goes, well, the wife is questionable, how like, I don't know one thing she's done that's been questionable, and Stabler goes, he is too, and then Craigan goes if they were a civilian couple, and Stabler goes and cut them both loose,

I also, we didn't really chat about it.

But this guy, the main, Tommy Callahan, he's from oz oh Okay.

He's a big.

Oz guy, and they I think he's the one where like he's part of the Skinheads with JK. Simmons, so like they're part of the you know, the racist crew. And then he needs dental surgery. We talked to someone that was the dentist on this podcast. Oh really, they put like a black person's gums and teeth in his mouth somehow, I didn't even know that was a surgery you can do.

And then he's like mad about it.

But I remember I forgot, which guess I should like figure out what episode, But we had the dentist be like, yeah, I think I did a surgery mixing up gums.

I was like, yeah, I remember that. We have to figure out who that is. Yeah, that's so funny because that just suck out to me because it was insane. There's like an the Achilles heel. There was like a cut on a basketball court. Like there's a few huge injuries and killings that pop out. But like I said, you know, I watched it in junior high, so right, right, right right, a little yeah, inappropriate age to be watching OZ Like me, I will eventually do a fool rewatch

Other people that like, like I missed SpongeBob, but there were my I had ears that loved SpongeBob, So I don't really know, like, yeah, I just didn't have cable.

Yah, yeah, eighth grade, gotcha.

I'm trying to think of what you would have been obsessed with while watching OZ. Okay, so for some reason, they just want to let this couple loose, because that all seems normal. It was awesome, Mandavi oh off office mom asif momby Yeah, yeah, yeah it was he played the doctor that did it. That's so good, awesome, Oh my god. Okay, so they're about to let this couple go, which sounds good. A pregnant woman who says her husband

This sounds good, Let's let them go.

This makes total sense for both Stabler and Benson's intuitions.

And I'm being very sarcastic. It makes no sense.

So it walks Captain Barbara Piers from the seven to four. She thanks, thanks for handling this, Captain Craigan, thanks for handling this this way, you know, And they're gonna cut Callahan loose. She goes, I'm gonna put him on modified duty. I'm gonna get him help. Tommy comes out and tells the captain it's all a mistake, and he goes, can

Have been her.

And Finn walks in and says, iab is on the line. A woman just called nine one one and said her husband is trying to rape her and it must be a cop if Iaby is calling, I don't think they specify that, but yes, it's a cop.

The gang rushes to the scene.

There is a muscleman in who's shirtless on his front lawn. He's got a gun in his hand. He's sweating and he's crying and he's going, I'm not me, I'm not me. His name is Wes Myers. There's another cop calmly trying to talk him down. He's like, Wes, where's Kendra, where's Anthony? And the guy just keeps crying I'm sorry, I'm sorry. But then he says she's dead, and then he's like, what's wrong with me?

What did I do?

Suddenly his young son, Anthony, who's like ten, walks out of the house and is like, Dad.

Dad, where's mom?

What's going on?

And then the dad is just I mean, like, there's a full cop stand off going on outside his house. And the cops keep going. Son get back in the house and he's like, Dad, are you mad at me? And then the Wes just cannot handle the are you mad at me? And he just puts the gun to his head and he fires and he drops to the ground.

Anthony obviously freaking out.

Stabler swoops in with the dad hug as usual and is like hugging the ten year old child. As we fade to commercial, we don't know what's happened. Top of AC two, we find out Wes Myers is a cop in the Bronx, but he actually survived the gunshot wound. So they're at the hospital. The doctors think he might live. The wife is dead. She was shot point blank in the back of the head. And so the kid Anthony is with acs. Two cops both attack their wives. What's

This makes no sense. He loved Kendra.

So we cut to Kraigan slapping down a copy of a paper. I think it's like the New York Sentinel or something, and then the paper headline is Cops Gone Crazy. I feel like we could have come up with something better, Cops gone cuckoo, cops something, you know, like if you're a trashy rag, like CoP's Gone Crazy. It's like not exactly, you know. And they're like, well, someone's got a big mouth. Craigan says, the journalist's name is sherm Hemple and he's got a lot of details, and I think that name

What So I'm still on this guy's page.

Sorry Tommy Tommy Callahan, and he stopped acting, so I'm like, well, that's weird. But then he has other credits. He went into cinematography and direction. But then he's still step that like ten years ago. So curious, I'm curious if you know him. Let us let us know if you guys know Tommy Callahan, shoot him my way. Wait is that literally Tommy Boy's name Tommy Callahan and Tommy Boy?

Wait, okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. I need to find.

Out when the movie Tommy Boy came out, and like, this feels like a prank.

What the fuck?

Nineteen ninety five.

So the movie Tommy Boy comes out in nineteen ninety five, the main character is named Tommy Callahan, and this episode comes out ten years later in two thousand and five, and they're just like, don't even google it. It's Tommy Callahan. We're just calling him that. Okay, that's funny to me. And as people know, I do fucking love Tommy Boy. New guy's puking in the corner. Oh my god. Okay, anyway, so Casey, that got Casey, That got our Casey. So

And he is played.

By John Dawsett, who is also in the episode Wanderlust and that's the episode with the home improvement mom and he plays her creepy boyfriend who sells prom dresses at the department store and he stole a dead guy's like social security numbers so he could sell prom dresses.

Wow.

And he is the sports guy in Sex and the City that's Samantha, you know, likes the nixt four.

But then rather sees the begins. Yeah, he watches baseball. Oh fucking sports guy, all right. So he's like, I can't show you guys the surveys.

You'd have to talk to the unit commander.

And now the unit commander's like, oh, I wish I could help, but blah blah blah, I can't release medical records, blah blah blah. You got to talk to the general. And Munch is like, ah, military bureaucracy. And the guy was like, I bet this is combat stress. A lot of guys have a hard time getting back into society. So now they're back talking to the doctor and he's like, there's nothing I can do to help you, and Stabler's like, I was a marine.

I know about the need for discretion.

But there is a pattern here, and this guy trainer goes, you got to take it up with the Pentagon.

Sorry.

So back at the precinct, Stabler is hitting another dead end with military channels. Craigan says, to pull up the Sentinel's website, which is the paper from the Cops Gone Wild article. They released a copy of the next morning cover and it says coward cop with a photo of Wes Myers. He was court martialed for cowardice and that the same reporter reported on this. And his name is Sherman Hemple. So Maloney is sick of they. He's like, get Sherman here, we got to talk to this guy.

Who is dude?

John went to study at the Moscow Art Theater School in Moscow, Russia.

Wow.

He also played professional baseball in the European Professional Baseball Federation.

What the fuck whoa, that's very stone of him.

There this guy.

While in Moscow, he was noticed by the director of Harvard University's Institute for Advanced Theater Training at the American Repertory Theater and was invited to obtain his MFA.

There no wonder, he said, not.

Of the podcast scouted at Harvard, scouted by Harvard in Russia.

Amazing, amazing, I am, I am dead.

Oh my god.

He is in like a lot of stuff. My husband has seen, but I have not. Really. I would only say I know him mostly from The Bear.

Now his nose has been broken and reported fourteen times. I mean, I keep I wo wow. One of his favorite films is Silence of the Lambs.

Ah, we have a lot in common, all right, amazing anymore burnt all bits?

No, I'm gonna go Okay.

So he tells the police.

He's like, quit the police Intimidation Act and try to save another Why don't you tru go try to save another fellow officer from a government frame up and stablers running after him bringing it.

I'm so crazy, Kara, you know him from the Bear because he's only in five episodes.

I know, but what is he in?

Like?

No, I'm just saying what a perform Yes, you're not watching the Punisher.

That's his big Yeah, that's it.

Like like Jared is like whenever I because I brought him up before, and I go, he's I've seen him on like Instagram, and I'm like, who is this guy? And Jared's like the Punisher like like people know him, I just don't, you know. So they run after the Punisher and he's like, they're like, how about this poor kid, Anthony, he just lost his whole family. Why don't you like, you know, why don't you walk away? But give me

So top of AC three.

Back at the precinct, the guy sorry, I'm like so crazy today. Okay, top of AC three. Back we're all the little nuts. You're blowing your nose.

I think Casey just took robotessin and I'm eating a big mac. So we're all struggling in our own ways today.

One well yeah, So now back at the precinct, the gang is chatting about quinium, which is an anti malarial drug with some pretty serious side effects. Message Boards say nightmares, paranoia, psychotic behavior, like, it's all like part of the quinium package. It's all in the tiny print at the or the very fast voice that reads it at the end of the ad. Munch gives the low down. Remember there was a string of murders on an army base in two

Good day.

And Casey's like, yeah, but didn't the FDA recently make you cite suicide as a potential side effect. And he's like, there's no proof that it causes that, and she's like, yeah, but it's on your label, so why did you add it? And he said it's all legal, And Casey goes, look, I've got two Army reservists. One is dead, one who tried really hard to be dead, and I want to see if they were given this drug with very serious side effects, and he goes, all drugs have side effect.

He is very upset.

Telling the story, Novak asks, have you ever taken Quinniam and he goes, yeah, manic mondays, and everybody's like, oh, I don't like the sound of that. That doesn't sound like a fun eighties song. And he's like, every Monday, some meda.

You will not believe how close and exact so much of this is to the real story. Oh really yeah, like manic Monday is used like the exact word, like the exact car.

Like this is really specific.

Wow, Oh, I can't wait to hear about it.

Okay, well, and get mad, but uh so, he says, every Monday, some medic stands at the end of the chow line gives them a pill.

A lot of the guys got really edgy.

He says that his bug mates reported that he would be jumping on his cot, wave his gun around, yell about insurgents. He doesn't remember any of it. And he's like, they're like, oh, is that why you got sent home early? And he goes, no, one day, I just freaked out. I was afraid to leave base camp. My CEO told me to get over it. Next thing I knew, they were shipping me home and calling me a coward. And they were right. He says, look at me. I killed

And Stable's right though.

He goes, he had a right to know what Quineum might do to him, and Casey goes, it's called informed consent. There was a risk and the army concealed it. I'm not charging the Pentagon for rape and murder, but I'd settle for a way to plead Wes out Stabler says, and to stop the military from giving out that drug. So Casey's like, I want to talk to Sherm and so Shehrm comes bouncing into the precinct like it's payback time.

He's good.

He's got a lot of bravado, this guy.

He's like, I want everything you know on the record about Quiniam and they're like, we don't even know that much.

That's why we called you in here.

And then he calls Munch of Novak, Moulder, and Scully, which is considering I love this moment, but also Munch was on The X Files one time as Munch, so it's a kind of a funny little moment. So Novak is like, look, I love the First Amendment, huge fan, but I also like preventing the deaths of soldiers. And Munch is like, what if she drags you in front of a judge and starts using words like patriot, homeland and security. I don't I honestly had to watch this

Guess what else spiked that year?

Prescriptions for quinium and the military they were up to thirty five thousand. They stopped prescribing quinium in Iraq and Kuwait and the suicide rate tumbled. And Munch is like, yeah, well they were also giving military guys better healthcare. It's like, were they? And Shirm goes, they only prescribe it in Afghanistan. Stand now, why would they stop it in Iraq and Kuwait if there was nothing wrong with it?

So we all want the truth to come out.

You can either help us or step aside, and Novak says to him. Finally he hands them a thumb drive. So he came with all the information. He came with a thumb drug full of everything. And then he's like, all right, fine, and he goes you want to see how far down the rabbit hole goes? And as they say, so, there we go, there's the thumb drive. In the thumb drive is a matrix aka an Excel spreadsheet. I didn't realize I was so my hobby was matrixes. I should

And they're like, how can we even tell if this is real?

And Reuben Morales, friend of the pod, is there, and he tells them that the last person to modify this document was p Trainer. And that's the doctor who's the Samantha Sports guy. Like, that's the guy they've been talking to the whole time, who's been telling them he can't give him any information. And Benson and his stable are like, that guy won't talk to us. In case He's like, well,

So no a.

JAG is stands for Judge Advocate General's Corps, which is JAG Corps, and it's the government law firm that represents the legal interests of the US Army and its soldiers.

I didn't know that, but there was a whole show called JAG Forever.

She needs to know what's a subpoena and she's gonna file criminal charges and he's like, bitch, you are crazy. You have no authority to do that. She's like, I have you and your testimony, and he's like, you absolutely do not have me. He's like, I will, I will not testify. I will not be doing anything publicly. My career is over. And she's like, dog, you agree to me with me. I'm a district I'm an assistant district attorney. You never has to speak off the record. You fucking

I just want people to pay attention. I think this will work.

So at that moment, Arthur Branch, the DA who was played by Friend Thompson, pokes his head and goes conference room. Now, so she got somebody's attention. Stabler's like, what was that? And Casey goes, probably just about another subpoena I sent out, and he goes food. She goes Donald Rumsfeld. So I kind of love this, and Casey is playing fucking hardball. So in a meeting with in an ex partey as we love to say, meeting with Branch and Novak, he is yelling you better fix it to Casey and she's

And he's like, this isn't.

Going to end well, but okay, now, please tell the Secretary of Defense that his presence will not be required. So unfortunately, no Donald Rumsfeld cameo in this episode. Now, in court Casey is questioning the quinium suit from earlier in the episode. The guy, mister Kohler, he works at the you know, he makes the drug, the quinium drug, and he goes, only one in ten thousand people experiences side effects.

Then she hands him a British study.

She goes, actually, this study from Britain says that one in one hundred and forty people experiences side effects. Then she shows him a pamphlet that the FDA has made quinium release about the drug and only twenty other prescription drugs, she points out, have been mandated to issue a pamphlet like this, and it mandates that anyone that takes quinium has to be given this pamphlet. Next up is an army dude, and I don't really know this guy. I think he's the general. He's the guy that's like above

They have all the information about this one brigade.

Only one man's death in the brigade is attributed to suicide. The other causes of death are listed as death by misadventure, weapons misfire, and Casey's trying to get this guy to admit that these could also have been suicides that other soldiers or the army is covering up in general, because you know, you could have somebody shoot themselves and then go, oh, their weapon misfired or whatever. So it's possible that there are more suicides than what's on record.

Is what Casey's trying to point out.

Next step, we got doctor Trainer, so he is back on the stand and he says, yes, I've treated some men with brains stem damage. This is exactly what Casey talked about. And then she goes and to what do you attribute that? And he says unknown eteology, and Novak does a slow head turn to him and the camera pans in on her. She is furious and she goes, I beg your pardon, and he repeats himself. He's like,

Casey starts to get like frantic.

She's like, are you denying that you previously stated quineum exposure caused brainstem damage in eight of your patients, that the only thing they all had in common was quinium, And he goes, uh, I've since learned that there's other stuff like jet fuel exposure, head injury, noise. She goes, noise caused a brain stem injury, and she goes, point blank, do you think that quinium is safe? And he's like,

And then they all look at the TV and.

The diner and there's like a news report troops coming home picking up their kids, kissing their wives, and it's a heavy moment.

And that's dick wolf baby fuck.

One of my favorite tropes of SVU is when Casey or Alex Cabot try to take down a company, the military, the Pentagon.

It is my favorite when they bring in the CEOs.

So, you know, a good episode I sat up, honestly, not really a resolve. Yeah yeah, and you're.

Gonna be pissed. Let's get into it. Let's get ready to get ready to get pissed.

I was just in North Carolina and one of the two girls, do you remember in North Carolina there were two girls that dressed like SVU, people like yah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I ended up signing the photo of all of us together from that show. But one of them is in the military, and I feel like we talked about Fort Bragg and this is wild. So this is all in Fort Bragg and it's about military spouse murders and of course the related controversial you know, malaria drugs that happened.

So I'll just get right into it.

A CBS News article on July twenty first, two thousand and two, wrote, in the last in the past six weeks, four wives of soldiers at Fort Bragg had been murdered, and each death was blamed on the husband. That's an insane summer, I would say, for a military base, right, So, and then two of those soldiers then took their own lives as well, like it was suicide murders. And then one ended up taking his own life while in custody. I mean, it's it's fucked.

So.

Fort Bragg is the Army's headquarters for Special Forces Special operation soldiers, and it's one of the biggest bases. It's home to over forty thousand troops, with a lot of units that played key roles in the Afghan War. So Sergeant first Class Rigo Berto Nives was a soldier in the third Special Forces Group. He had been back from Afghanistan for just two days when he decided to shoot

The one who strangled her.

So he strangled Jennifer Gale right on June twenty ninth and then reported her missing. She was a mother of three and the two had been married for fourteen years.

She married him super.

Young, you know, like she was twenty years old, and she was just this perfect Christian wife and mother who schooled their three sons. And on July nineteenth, he finally confessed and led investigators to her body in a Hope County in a wooded area and was charged with murder. And he buried her on the base near a firing range.

Oh my god, Okay.

So then her father, Archie Watson, to CBS News, said that Jennifer had been talking about divorce and was over the military life, but William Wright did not want to let her go. Wilma Watson, her mother, quoted in The New York Times, said until he came back from Afghanistan, I didn't worry about violence. He was getting these attacks

Oh my god.

Floyd was a member of Dela To Force, which was a secret of anti terrorism unit based on Fort Bragg, and he came back from Afghanistan in January of that year.

So and their kids.

Thank god, we're in Ohio visiting relatives during the time of their deaths. So, Nieves Right Ann Floyd were all assigned to the US Army Special Operations Command. And then the fourth one was not in a special group. He was Army Sergeant Cedric Ramon Griffin. He was twenty eight and he killed his wife. On July ninth. Marilyn Griffin, thirty two, was found dead in their burning home.

So this is from the episode.

The two kids escaped the fire, but he stabbed her fifty times before setting the house on fire, and she died by stabbing, So she was dead before the fire.

But that's like what Munch references in the episode.

Yeah, that's what I mean.

Yeah, Oh god, it's like there's so many direct polls, and so they were estranged at the time and he was like living with another woman who was pregnant. So, but he confessed after he was arrested. He was charged with first degree murder, two counts of attempted first degree murder for the daughters, and then first degree arson, according to Cumberland County Sheriff Moose Butler.

And that's to CBS News.

Yeah, as you know, all the four of these men were sergeants and on top of these six deaths, now we have nine children with no parents. And then The Washington Post reported on July twenty sixth, two thousand and two, that an officer assigned to the Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg was shot and killed that week as he slept in his home in Fayetteville. So Major David Shannon was shot in the chest and head as he slept.

Yeah, let's not to.

Make them at all.

Colonel Dad Davis, he called the killings to the Los Angeles times and quotes an unexpected sequence of events and there's no linkage we could find.

Okay.

Also, yeah, he also said that it's clear that soldiers should come and talk and get help, and there's available programs for them. And then he goes, we're not looking to blame anyone for anything, and it's like, there's four

Forture really quickly, soa when you're going forward, it's colonel that way.

No, but I can't deal with it. I'm not saying it's annoying. It's annoying. I don't care. I don't respect my military. And if you were going to keep going, you work now.

I didn't.

I purposely did not capitalize anyone's names. Anyone's positions. I did not capitalize Fort Bragg. I did not capitalize anything or use anything. Right, I don't care. I'll call them like it doesn't even matter to me. So this guy, Jerome Habarack, a chapelain, like I'm not playing your little games.

Guys like okay, yeah, Like I don't respect them.

So Jerome Habarack, a chaplain at Fort Bragg, claims in The New York Times that counselors are available in the field, and soldiers are counseled before they leave on assignment and before they return home. But The Washington Post reports that in army's most elite units that any contact with mental health care providers, any signs of depression or domestic problems can ruin careers. And that's according to lawyers, psychologists, educators who all work with these troops. Army culture sees it

Wow. Wow. And this cold guy.

When asked by CBS News of going to Afghanistan caused any of this, he said, that's a reach. Local authorities, though, said all the cases came with warnings that Lieutenant James E. Black of the Cumberland County Sheriff's Office said to the LA Times, each of these couples were having serious friction and there were definite signs. Lieutenant James E. Black, the sheriff, said that these soldiers left with problems and they came back with problems. And marital issues don't disappear just because

One of them was living with another pregnant woman. Yeah, and some of them could have been like like some of the marital problems could have really been sparked from coming back and being like you're having an affair, you're doing this, you know, like paranoia and things that are like from mental health stuff, you.

Know, yeah, fucking crazy. Yeah.

And so in two thousand and eight, so you know, years later, Vanity Fair did a peace on these cases and asked were these men unable to leave the war behind or did an anti malaria drug turn them psychotic? And this is after the episode was this big expose, but.

It connects.

So some of those men did take the anti hilaria drug Larium, and it does have side effects, and those side effects include suicidal behavior, psychotic actions, according to ABC News, And according to some woman named Jean lacy Less, she was the co director of Larium Action USA and this is like an anti larium group, and she said to ABC News that the most recent study shows that Larium causes side effects in one third of cases. And like

So every day they took the pillow.

Would be manic Monday or wild Wednesdays, like they knew what was them? And so yeah, the other part of this case is this larium drug and that's the commercial name for the anti malaria drug mephyloquine methhloquin. I feel like her brother is gonna have a fun time with me. This the next paragrapher. So, so the evidence was largely anecdotal. But why are you giving drugs that caused hallucinations, confusion, psychotic behavior to people that carry weapons and hold secret clearances?

Huh?

And the guy who's asking these questions is George Andreas Pegani, who, while in Iraq, became panicked, disoriented, reached for his loaded guns, thinking enemies were bursting in his room. So then when he asked his superiors for help, they packed him up and he faced charges of cowardice, the first case since Vietnam. But then once for those charges, he used the defense that like the pill made me do it.

The army dropped all charges. They didn't want anybody looking into that.

So CBS News in two thousand and five reports that the Pentagon had stopped giving out the pill, which the US military developed. So they developed this formalaria and it was dangerous enough that they did stop fucking giving it out just the Pentagon. Even though they stopped giving it out, the drug is still recommended.

Well, this was like during that time.

But the US Center of Disease Control and Prevention and the manufacturer, Roche Pharma, says that more than thirty million people have used it over twenty years. I don't really know, yeah, what to do, but they deny everything, and CBS News the spokesperson. The spokesperson said there's no reliable scientific evidence that larium is associated with violent acts or criminal conduct. In the civilian medical community, the views on the drugs

Really.

Yeah, it's strange to take such a big precaution on something that isn't really a need over there. Laura Howell is now a widow with two children, and she blames larium for what happened after her husband, a veteran Green Beret, returned home in March two thousand and four. Chief Warrant Officer William Howell went from normal to murderous in a half hour and ended his life in his front yard.

With a bullet to the head.

Oh my god.

Critics of the drug believe Larium is connected to the surge and military suicides in two thousand and three, when twenty three people deployed took their own lives, and then after larium was halted any rock the suicide rate draw. Wow, just like they said, I so is the evidence anecdotal or what? Because this doesn't seem very anecdotal to me. Yeah, and with fort Bragg. These articles don't stop like this episodes from two thousand and five, but like shit is

So it's like hard to.

Say it was the drug when two of them didn't do it all these killings. The Washington Post said, echo, I do not use the word echo, but they did, they echo like past cases. So the most notorious slang ever at Fort Bragg was in this nineteen seventy killing. This guy killed his wife and two daughters. Yeah, Captain Jeffrey MacDonald, who was a Special Forces doctor, and he was convicted in nineteen seventy nine for the crime. And there were other instances of murderous violence at Fort Bragg

Oh my god.

And that is reported by the Washington Post according to prosecutors of the case. And the none of this is isolated, Like I said, so in two thousand and eight from NBC News at this article starts off in quotes.

This is a two thousand and eight NBC article.

For the third time in four months, a female soldier based at Fort Bragg is dead and a husband or lover is charged with murder. So that's two thousand and eight. So all the four crimes I told you the murder of Summer, that's two thousand and two. And they're saying like, oh, we're fine, We're fine. And then in two thousand and eight, like three other women in four months are killed by a partner. Yeah, and again officials that Fort Bragg said

This is an anomaly.

How is it an anomaly when it keeps being patterned and happening all the time.

It's so confusing to me.

And like I said, the drama does not end, So I'm going to talk about some stuff that happened after this episode. But Rolling Stone has done a few giant articles. But one was in April twenty twenty one that said forty four Fort Bragg's soldiers died stateside in twenty twenty, and several of them were homicides, and the families want

His own life.

Another Fort Bragg soldier was charged in a twenty twenty with manslaughter of his wife. On Christmas Eve, October twenty twenty one, a soldier station at Fort Bragg was charged with murder for shooting his pregnant girlfriend while she drove on a Georgia highway. And that's according to NBC News.

Then another full.

Rolling Stone expos in twenty twenty two centers around a case where a soldier, Enrique Roman Martinez, became one of the dozens of Fort Bragg soldiers to die recently under unexplained circumstances.

He was beheaded.

What the fuck?

He was beheaded? Dude, and none of us.

You're in the military and your husband goes babe, we're transferred to Fort Bragg.

What do you do?

I mean, run for the fucking hills. Yeah, why would you go there? This is like a death camp. Jesus. Yeah, it's fucking disgusting.

And with Stabler being like, why would the military wanna hurt their people.

They don't give a fuck. They don't give a fuck. They'll explode your fucking children oversea. They do not care.

And I don't know why if they send you over to die for oil money, Like, what makes you think they care about this. I'm sure this Roche laboratories or something has a deal with the military.

I'm sure they're all investing.

I'm sure everyone in the Pentagon is investing in these medical companies.

It's like that.

Woman in Georgia in Congress that started like investing in Zoom and masks and shit, knowing that COVID was gonna happen.

Like these people, there has to be more to it.

They're fucking denial and it's it's disgusting, and like I said, there's no surprise.

This is not isolated.

Studies have shown that military couples have a higher rate of domestic abuse, sometimes two or even five times more than the general public.

They want to deny it. They're all fucking delulu.

Retired Air Force Colonel John Carney is quoted in the La Times saying, I don't think our jobs create unique problems that would make someone to do this.

There's more stress for all of us these days. What are you talking about.

Definitely murdering their wives because milk is a little bit more expensive than usual, for sure.

But my thing is like they're asking like, oh, yeah, we're not unique, we don't have unique problems, but try to treat a military person like their regular Yeah, they want to be fucking treated special. They're boarding the place, it's like, oh, thank you so much for your service.

You're doing so much.

But now all of a sudden you're saying, oh no, no, our jobs are just the same thing.

They're not working at a bank.

There's no unique problems, So then stop wanting special treatment, which one is it are you? Are you thank you for your service or are you just any other job and nothing is connected. I can't believe all this information is publicly out there, all of these stories.

No one gives a shit.

Fuck the military, fuck Fort Bragg, and yeah, fuck fuck everyone crazy and.

All these people think they support the troops. No, you don't.

If you supported the troops, you would not support this kind of shit. Fort Bragg should be shut down. Your soldier is found beheaded and it's business as usual. There's a woman buried on your fucking property.

And you had no idea. You're the military.

My brother's been there.

I think my brother was at Fort Bragg first in North Carolina. I'm sure, no, I mean now he's in the reserve, but like you know, no, I know, but yeah, yeah, oh I.

Gotta ask him.

I gotta ask about this. I gotta be like, are they still giving this drug out?

And do you get the Pensagon said they stopped in O five with this one, but maybe they're using a different.

Malaria drug, like who knows?

Yeah, oh god, but thank you for doing all this research. It's very infuriating.

It's insane. It's insane.

I like can't like reading it all in this because this is like articles throughout spanning two decades.

But it's like, I don't know how you deny it. I don't know how that continues to just deny it. Oh yeah whatever. Oh I'm a bunch of women died in the past, has.

Been denying things.

I mean everybody.

They're all covering their own fucking asses and trying to get more kids to sign up.

It's crazy. That's crazy.

Shit.

Get these people the help they need. They're doing a very stressful job.

No, because I think if you start being introspective and going to therapy, you're not gonna want to be in the military.

All right, thank you. We've got a great guest to cleanse the palette. Now, everybody, don't go anywhere our guests today. Wow, we are so pumped. An incredible talent. You guys have seen her on Transparent and Your Honor as well as the Cohen Brothers film A Serious Man. But you know we're today as Missus Callahan, Jamie Callahan, the wife of Tommy Callahan. Please enjoy our chat with the amazing Amy Landaker.

We are so excited. S View Royalty two episodes.

Oh yeah, yeah, that's true.

You know, it's the one that you aren't asking me about with Mike will ask you all of it. Okay, Well, it was definitely my very first guestar in New York, very very Uh, it's very close to my heart.

I have a good story about that.

Oh yeah, well I did see that it was so early in your IMDb. I'm like, this is your first big thing, Like I would feel incredible if I booked.

That has to be you so early in my career. Yeah, that was just so.

I was like thirty four. Well, so I lived in Chicago. Uh, And I was like a big six usful lucky voiceover in Chicago. So I made like a very good living and I didn't have any plans of moving, you know, out of Chicago. I was just going to be like a theater actor, voiceover actor. But did you go to all the Town Alehouse a lot A little bit yay? Right by Second City. I was more Stepan wool I was more O'Rourke's. Was our hangout the bar across the

Is that the show really get the newspaper and it has like right, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah right.

So when the finale, they had so many like guest stars that they had to hire one locally because they didn't have the budget because normally they just always bring them in for New York or LA. So I did it to do like one real guest star, which kind of definitely wet my whistle on TV stuff, But there just wasn't a lot of that in Chicago.

So anyway, when you're in New York, everybody wants.

To get on Law and Order, right, like that is the job, that is what every actor gets to do. And I was lucky enough to get this guest star. And I can't remember the name of that episode. It's not coolive, but that one's called Rotten. Rotten, Okay, so rotten. First of all, the funny story about Rotten is that my character was a originally written as this woman who sleeps with police because she has like a thing for them. I think they call them like cop bunnies or something.

No.

I just said to kind of like, now I'm a nurse, but I'm still sort of talking out the side of my mouth, which were which actually in New York works absolutely fine. Yeah, but in my mind I was like, oh, I have to sort of soften this up. And I did this little monologue. I had this little monologue like I don't know, both episodes, I'm like this tough girl kind of vibe going on. But they Marishka and now I'm very lucky to be pretty close friends with Marishka, which blows my mind.

Yeah, I know special.

And I've told her this story so many times because I really mean it, Like it was a huge deal to me. When I was done, she said, if you keep work, if you keep doing work like that, You're going to work the rest of your life.

Wow.

And I was like, oh my god. I was like, oh my god, Like it meant so much to me.

I mean, obviously I was so nervous, and you know, she's an icon. Yeah, I couldn't believe how nice she was to me and supportive. And I told her like it was just a huge deal to hear that, like huge, Yeah, she was right, Wow, lucky lucky so far.

Yeah yeah.

And then I kind of got into this like era of I did every I think I did every Law and order, so there's like.

You know, you wait to do the Mothership. I did like criminal Intent.

I was recurring on that, and then I did like conviction, which was on for like a year.

I do have a.

Question about Goliah right off the bat, I mean the curls were popping.

Oh my god.

I mean I just I did watch it yesterday with my friend Hallie for Chicago. Were like old theater buddies and well she was Altimar right now, that doesn't matter, but just in case someone's like Hallie doesn't live in Chicago, she's to work at step and Wolf and I'm I was like, I'm going to do this podcast Tomorre.

I didn't want to watch.

I haven't watched this episode in forever, and we were just like I've always had really interesting Well I had short hair back in the day. My ex husband like short hair, which I have to tell you, I feel like sort of kept my on camera career not going further for a long time because short haired women are not the leads on television shows. They are in commercials or they are guest stars. So that is just a fact.

Like even la Rishka Hargate's like trajectory is like season one, she has like a little long hair and then she cut it into this pixie and apparently she thought she was going to lose her job because it's like like.

Nobody wants to see that. Like Carrie Russell, do we remember that, Yes, I don't know what it is.

I don't know what it is, but there's such a thing about it and it's so anyway. I I didn't know that until I grew my hair wander and started to get bigger jobs. But but I don't think it ever looked good on camera. I mean because the hair people got bless them wanted to you know, they didn't know my hair. They didn't know how to spile it. You're there like they've never met, You're there for a day. And I, to this day, I'm still slucky at this.

I'm too much of a people pleaser.

And the biggest example of this was actually not that lovely dude, but I was in a movie called Oh God, this is by the way.

My age is my brain. The hormones are not they're not functioning at their.

Highest IMDb open Steve Carell, So Steve Carrell, Oh don't like Dan or something like that.

Yeah Dan Dan in real life? Right? Yeah? So Dan in.

Real life was my first movie scene, like big movie of my career, and it was really exciting. It was with Steve Carrell and I'm like, oh my god, I'm gonna be the same with Steve Carell. But I had this really cute short haircut if you knew how to

Reason for it, which I did with the curls yesterday.

So so then I'm getting my haircut in La like by the woman who did the original short haircut a year and a half later or something, and she was like, I saw this movie a long time ago, last year, and there was this woman who looked so much likely that she had like literally the worst haircut.

That's me. And the thing was so shorter.

She saw it on a plane or whatever that like she just did it put it together that it was actually me. And you can't even make that story up, like it sounds like, I'm making it up, but that's how bad the hair was.

Wait, but did you say it was me? Or you didn't say anything?

Oh?

Yeah, of course I did. Did she feel did she feel? How did she feel about her bad haircut?

Because it wasn't a bad haircut, they just style it.

No.

I was like, that was my haircut, that was you, that was me, And she was like, oh my god, what did they do to it? I'm like, curled it, you know, they curled a short haircut, not you know, not.

Yeah, it was flipping and flipping those curls. Yeah. Yeah, So on that yesterday.

I don't know how that got decided that I had curly hair, but I thought, well that I sort of thought it made her feel. This is gonna sound really condescending and probably offend people, but like working class that she had, Like like I imagine she had really curly hair and she doesn't like straighten it because she's like, doesn't have time and she's pregnant and life's hard.

That's that was my justification yesterday.

Okay, that works. That works.

She's a pregnant woman whose husband is going possibly insane. Yeah, then your nurse character. I hate to say this feels like she would have voted for Trump. She loves cops. I think she loves she's like killed drug dealers. It's totally fine, you know, I think Unfortunately, Wait.

I'm sorry, but I'm vote. I'm voting for Trump. Is there a problem with.

Oh, it's weird because I did go to your Instagram and now even thought the feeling that you were not on that side. But I did play that trick on a doctor I had once. I was like, well, I'm voting for Trump, and he goes and that's totally fine, and I was like, I'm kidding, Like.

But here's what's weird. Half the world, the country, I know, but for.

Some reason, in LA it feels like we can just joke about it because who would possibly be in our bubble?

Yeah, yeah, in our bubble, no doubt about it.

Wait, so they made you audition for the second part too?

Oh yeah, do you remember for everything? Everything there? Because I wasn't No one knew me. I wasn't a name at all.

I mean now I will Now I'm at the point of my career where I get offers on guest stars, Like I don't have to audition for guest stars.

But that didn't happen until after Transparent.

Yeah, that I was ever even I always had to audition. But then if you're like the lead in the series and there's enough work out there and I've.

Done enough, you know, people, you don't have to anymore.

But but back then you had to. You had to go in every time.

Do you remember back in like your New York days, ever seeing like another actor that you would like always see, Like we always hear people say like, oh, yeah, I'm always in the same room with like Julie Bowen, or like I'm always in the same waiting room with whoever.

I mean, I think more by it's definitely a voice sober I had.

We had all the same girls like every job, every audition, and we all became like incredibly close friends. I don't think I was like as connected yet because I was new to New York to like the theater, the theater women like I would see the same faces but I couldn't name them to you right now, you know, it wasn't like like more out here in LA you start to really get like who you're you know, who your crowd is. It's so funny because I think her name's

Like, yeah, you guys don't have a similar vibe I which I was totally.

She's younger than me and I was like, oh god, no, that's not me. But I met her at a party actually, and she told me that she gets me a lot. And then I always get Amy Brenneman. But Amy Brennan was not auditioning when I came out here, but she was who everybody thought I was. It was like, especially because my name was Amy, to the point that like someone came out to me at sundance and was like.

How are you doing? And I was like, I'm great.

How's your husband and I said, oh, we got divorced and she was like what what you and Brad And this is before I was with Bradley went for my ex husband Jackson.

I was like Brad, I was like, oh you think I made me Brenneman Now I just like now, I like even cut it off before it happens.

But like my genre was like Pamela Adlon, there was an actress Amy Farrington was really great, Like we were all the brunette, you know, a.

Certain vibe that we were always.

Up for the same stuff, but very not competitive the way that people. I think when you're a character actor or you're like a guest star, or you're come from theater, there's a lot more community than there is in sort of movies, you know, and being around really famous people, it gets kind of weird because they get really isolated. I really miss those New York people because I've been in La so long. There it was it was just a great time. It was a really wonderful, fun time

I'm going to say it's awesome though, because I remember actually like when you were started to become your star was rising with transpar you know which both of us watched Transparent and big fans love my heart. Yeah, but like I remember, like my husband or something goes, oh you know, I just heard Amy Landiker or something on a podcast talking about how really your career started popping off in your mid forties, and I was like that, well, forty.

Was when I booked a serious man. Yeah, forty was my first real breakthrough. Yeah, and then forty three.

I think was Transparent, Yeah, when I got cast in that.

And I don't I want to talk about it all the time because I want people, I want, especially want women.

Actors to know, yes, is it hard? Are we? But I have this great acting teacher, Leslie Khan. I con yeah, I love Legli Cohn. Yes, almost told me to stop wrinkling my forehead. Oh yeah, I know. She was big on that. She loved she loved botox because she was like, I don't have to tell well anymore.

She finally she said it so many times to me that I went up.

I went up to her.

I was like, listen, this is just my face when I'm listening, Like I would crinkle my forehead. Now I get botox. And she was like, and I was like, so do you think I should get botox? And she wouldn't come out and just say it, but I knew.

That right right well, And it's sort of she can really annoy people with that stuff too, because it can get you in your head, and she knows that, like it's not you know, that's a rough note. Sometimes it's like, well, I'm expressing myself by the way, you know, Julia Louis Dreyfus wrinkles her forehead extensively, as does my husband Bradley Whitford's forehead is like a train, you know, there's like train tracks.

That's expression. So but she was also very savvy about, you know, how you look on camera, attractiveness blah blah blah blah blah.

But what I loved about her for me was she was just like, you know, there's like, yeah, there's a rule, but that means there's an exception, and why can't you be the exception to the rule?

You know?

And that really stuck with me, Like, you know, there's always an exception, and eventually the exception, you know, will will topple the rule.

And and you know, I mean we're.

Experiencing that now in our political you know, everyone's like terrified,

Very extremely fuckable.

Yeah, oh my gosh.

And so yeah, and then so you and then you met your husband on that another SVUM you about this is the best story.

This is the very best story. The only reason that I am married to Bradley Woodford the love of my life is because he did Law and Order. Wait what Yeah, so Bradley was going to be one of the It was sort of a snob about. I think it was more of a game like, I'm going to be one of the few actors in the world. But has never done a Law in Order. So he never did it, like back in the day. He just like you know,

He came back in a more recent season and.

Now he the our podcast. This is huge.

Yeah, and then he did on the Moon, but like, which was a huge episode for her, was like one of her favorite He's one of her favorite actors. Also, by the way, if I didn't know how in love she was with her husband and how in love hopefully my husband is me, I would be jealous of how much they love each other. They are a great team. They are hysterical together. They should have their own sitcom. I'm not even kidding. They did like a whatever the big number was it twenty.

Five years of the BESTBA or something season was twenty five. Yeah.

She came to La to do like an Emmy panel thing and Hey moderated, and I'm telling you, I was like, they they're the funniest two people together in the world.

But she they became very close after that.

They got along really great, and that's given me access to her.

Her lovely uh Manhattan Life.

I thought that she like, wow, twenty five years, twenty two episodes a year, you really, uh, you really break it in You sure not.

To mention it's on seven different channels at all times of the day the same.

What's so great about her? And the only reason you like don't hate her is she's always like can you believe this? Can you can you believe that?

Like she's not like she's super enjoy of all of it and very generous around it, so you don't want to kill her.

But yeah, so that's Bradley is also SBU.

I don't wait till I hope one day we see Marishikan sitcoms again, because pre sv usually have so.

Much fun out there, and I write, I should.

Write them a comedy like I.

I've just finished my first like romantic comedy.

I saw I am dB. I want to hear about that.

Well, it's not. I just finished it and it's not. We are in the process of submitting, submitting to festivals, which is why I haven't done any kind of public posting. We're sort of waiting to see if it finds a home there. But it's called for worse and it's a wedding movie, romantic comedy that was very low budget and very done under a sag ultra low budget, very quickly.

But I was lucky enough to.

Have kind of an insane cast, and so I think, under the limitations that it's in, it was.

It turned out. I'm really, really, really happy with it.

But Bradley is in it, Nico Haraga, who's this young up and coming sort of model skater guy who is just lovely and funny, and Gabby Hoffman.

Was in it, and Ken Marino Missy Kyle wait on our podcast.

Oh really yeah cool, Yeah, she plays my best friend. I just had some really great comedic actors, and so it just I was really lucky it was.

I it just I think it's funny.

I like the I mean, at least the premise that that's written as a one line.

On uh on.

Like it's like a newly divorced, sober mom goes to a wedding with a much younger date and behaves like a drunk twenty five year old bridesmaid to try to keep up love it.

Wait, this might be weird, but if you had to fuck Mary kill right direct act, what would you pick?

So funny?

Because I had to take my friend Hallie through the whole Taylor's swift saga.

She didn't understand all of it, and we got to the fuck Mary kiss kill Mary.

That was what it was. Oh yeah, yeah, it was.

The Travis you made it a little wrong, cheer. We went down the whole rabbit hole of so wait. Oh out of the three, I mean, honestly, hmm, that's a really okay so kill what does it?

Kill?

Mary? Kill? Fuck Mary kill? Fuck acting because acting is.

Always like the most emotional and intense and insane. Kill writing because it's so fucking isolating, so hard, and Mary directing.

I love directing, and I also feel like.

There's something you know, there's there's always something slightly humiliating about acting, like you're always at the mercy of everybody else, and your opinions aren't always taken, and no, you're.

Always like you can't say when your hair looks bad and stuff exactly.

And the business always makes you feel very replaceable.

You know, it's always like, well, if you can't do it, well, there's a thousand people equally talented right behind you. So directing feels like something that and writing does too. But directing feels like something that's social and also you get to have a lot of creative input and you're sort of in charge. I guess I really like being in charge, because boy did I enjoy directing that movie.

I was like, this is.

My jam and people were really I felt like I learned from the best directors that I've worked with. I've been doing this so long that I knew how what people need on a set to feel good and my like, I felt like the biggest compliment was the fact that so many people said, like that was one of the best times they ever had, even though we had like no time and no money. But I was like, because I know, I know what I know how, I know

They need to get a chance to play.

You know, you get what you want and then you let them do what they want because you might get something unbelievable, you know, especially in comedy. So anyway, it was that that's a fun I think I and that's what I've been thinking about, Like, what would I take from that experience is like I probably love to direct some episodics television.

That was something that would come maybe an episode of Yeah you had a connection over.

A long or SEU.

Right now, I'm being totally honest.

I'm really more interested in comedy.

That's my new my new thing, even as an actor. Now, I told my whole team that's what I wanted. I think as I've gotten older, I really love.

Lapping at work and not I've done a lot of hardcore drama stuff, like on stage and as I mean, there was a time when I went through my divorce in LA I was so emotional and like raw that I booked nine guest stars in a year that my agent said they've never seen and I had audition for every single one of them, and I just put, you could not give me a job that year because everybody was like being murdered or my kid died or like something where I could channel this upset that I I

And now you're happy, so you want to do comedy, then well, right, very yeah, very very happy.

But I do have to ask about a serious man I'm so, we're both so curious, you know about the Coen Brothers and that extreme.

Yeah, that was an absolute fantasy job I had. I was not at that level in my career to get an audition for a Cohen Brothers movie. I happened to, uh be very very lucky to be in LA and Rachel Tenor, who used to be part of this Tenor Pascal casting company, who was who were great in Chicago, was now living in LA and was now their La point person for casting. And I was out here doing a play and somebody flagged this audition for me from

You know.

And I said to my husband at the time, I was like, do you make do comunit?

He's like, I mean, you look good, you look like you had a baby, you know, and I was like, okay, great, and I was like, well, I'll never have to worry about that because there's not a chance in how long I'm going to get this movie.

Like, not a chance. I'm just going to go in and say hi to Rachel, you know.

So she called me in because we knew each other, and then I got this a callback and I was just like wh.

And then it was like, you're going to meet the Coen Brothers.

And I was like, and I actually ran that audition in my class at Leslie Conn's before I went in, and she really helped me grounded in the fact that she's like just remember she's like stoned the entire time, right, And it sort of like gave me this this one thing that would take me kind of.

In this zone.

And I went in and and I asked Paul Eielstein, who'd worked with them, you know, what to expect, and he's like, you know, they're there. They might not talk very much, they're not very talkative in auditions, and don't don't think that means you're not going to get it. Although what was interesting is they were very talkative with me and wanted, you know, they really like.

AFT a lot, and I had a sense that.

Like they really liked it, and Rachel was like, you are on the short list, but they are very thorough and this is just the beginning of this process. And I waited like a really long time to find out that I got it, so long that in the meantime I got my first guest star in LA, which was.

On mad Men.

Oh yeah, and Matt Weiner was like also very supportive. I always got a lot of really good feedback because I think as a theater actor, I was always like super prepared. I was pretty fearless, like a lot of stuff that like in that episode I was supposed to like walk into a wall and he just couldn't believe how willing I.

Was really walking to the wall over and over again. I was kind of drunk. Tur name is Petra Coulson.

But I he said that if there's anything I can do to help you in LA, and I was like, well, I auditioned for this Cone Brothers movie, Like I don't know those guys, but good luck with that. I was like thanks, And it was so amazing because like a year later I was at the American Film Institute Awards luncheon, which is like a huge thing out here. It's really fun because it's like it's just all the great actors.

It was such an incredible and again in my.

I think I was, you know, forty years old at that point and it was just amazing and also shooting though the only problem with the Coen Brothers is they are too fast.

They are a machine.

They I was having so much fun and I did not want it to end, and it just moved so quickly. That was literally my only complaint. I'm like, I wish you know, I mean, it was just like they know everybody.

Like would have thought, that's a surprise.

It's insane, And.

Never change a word from the audition to the day that you shoot, Like most scripts are always reworked, and to the point that they also have every single shot is anim is drawn. They have somebody who draws their frames so you also see your whole scene before you do it. Like they know every shot they're going to do, every shot, and they use like the Saint Roger Deakins as their DP. Like they've been a group of people who work together so long that they just are like a machine.

It's like they know what people say.

I mean that you go in there, everybody's going you go really bad out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Although I've had longer day than a courtroom on a Law and Order than I did on.

The Coen Brothers.

Just before we go, I do I do have an SVU note that I will. This isn't a question, but you know, part of like law and Order is people won't stop working as the cops are talking to them or someone died close to them and they are not reacting. We've only talked to one other actress, and now you are the second.

You told the truth.

You were helpful, you were focused, you were appropriately upset, you weren't doing a task, You cooperated and that was with sas. So thank you for joining that high category of people that thank you responding.

That was funny though, is that Maloney was doing a crossword puzzle during all of the lias between takes.

And I was like, dude, I'm a rate victim.

And then I realized, like once I got into TV more and how long and exhausting, and you know, he's they're like twenty four to seven, I was like, I get it now, I get why he Yeah, I mean he didn't do it in the scene, granted, which would have been really inappropriate, but I was like so new and not, you know, I just didn't.

I didn't get that. Their hours are insane and they and also emotionally, but people you can't possibly Yeah, people have that alls that.

Like Marishka jumps in and out, like she'll be doing this really serious scene and then she'll.

Be joking and yeah, oh my gosh, where is it.

So happy to talk to you, like, thank you so much for coming on.

Absolutely what an inspiration. Obsessed with her more than anything.

Oh my god, I love her. I love her love, I love her love with Bradley Whitford. They're so sweet and their love of Marishka. Yes, but I you know what's crazy. We My brother was just here and he was he's in the military, and I asked her about this episode. I was like oh, we just covered this episode about the military with this drug that they giving for malaria that was making people kill their wives. And he was like, oh, yeah, I remember hearing about that.

All about it. And I was like, if they don't give you that job, He's like, they don't give that anymore, and I was like okay, good.

Well.

I also just I mean, I hate the military, Amantai military, and I don't care, like, oh, you're not watching Love is Blind.

No, But I've been hearing a lot about it through OUTMOSIS. I've been hearing about that guy Leo that talks about his money all the time.

Yeah, but he's a fraud. We went on his site yesterday.

We went on a website he sells like really weird are and our friend said, he's a joke. But it's family money, right, isn't it. Yeah, But there's no way he is actually right. Oh, I just don't believe it. The website looks terrible, like hah, It's just if you were selling our and you were truly hundreds of millions, like familid Press site.

You wouldn't have a shitty fucking website.

You would have been able to hire someone like a nice fucking yeah person. So he you Also, if you come from that wealth, you're not gonna be like, look at my Rolex, want to try it on.

That's just not how that works.

Money talks, wealth whispers exactly like you don't, you don't, you don't want to be known for your wealth, but that's all you're going to talk about NonStop, like obviously you're not actually rich.

Yeah, and or don't have a personality outside of it, saying when.

People will say, oh, I'm so broke, I'm so broken, and it's like, no, you're not broke.

People don't do that, like yeah, it's it's not real.

Yeah I've been. Yeah, so I've been like sort of, but what brought what? What about the military brought you to love?

There's a military girl and she she's multi generation military, like the mom was in it, all her siblings I think, you know. And she ends up with a guy with like a little braid and a beads and so he's like anti military, and all her friends are in the military, and he's like so anti it. And they're at this dinner being like, well it's part of her life and she's proud of it and blah blah blah.

And he's like, if she goes back, we're done.

And she's like, well, I won't go back, and she keeps taking these concessions and he's not making any concessions at all in their life, and it's just like, I'm not into the military, but like, you deserve to be with someone that's down for your service. Yeah, Like I don't understand how you could be with someone that's so anti what you do, wouldn't let your children do it, doesn't want you to go back if that's something you loved, like her and her girlfriends are like, this is the

One, it's not true.

But he is just such a shining star of that where he was just like, oh, peace, love, equality, I'm not fucking wearing a condom.

You better get on a pill, bitch.

You know.

It's like kind of wild.

But she meets up there's the guy that her second place guy is this Ukraine dude who was in the military in the US and then went to volunteer in

There's photos of the kids.

He's just not child nine Episode nine, it came out that he had kids, Like that's oh my god, that show.

And then all the guys are putting on an act.

So this one guy is just like I like listening and growing and blah blah blah. And then he was like he's a pervert. He was like doing like come, he's like a kink pervert. And she's like crying. He was texting girls right away, Like it's just the guys put on this act, and it's like they can't hold on even for two weeks.

This is only two weeks, you know, to hide your terrible parts of your personality.

Wow, But it's like if the if the experiment is on, Oh my god, I did see on Instagram people watching it with a sheet over the TV. So you also don't know who anyone looks like, and then you tear it down when they meet to see or not.

I like that.

That's pretty fall Yeah, that's very meta. Put yourself. You're basically put yourself in the game too, but you wouldn't.

Like any of them.

Oh and so the previews of the new chunk of episodes that'll have already come out. But it's a guy who picks this girl seeing a different girl he didn't pick, and her going, yeah, I guess love isn't blind.

And I don't know. I just can't wait for her the termoil. Maybe I should get back into it. I feel like this though.

That's the thing. It's like I watch it and I'm like, I'm bored.

I hate this. I am not interested. You're all putting on an act. None of you are in love. This is all for too, like fuck all of you.

But then I can't stop, can't stop because of the bomb drops of like, Okay, there's a pervert.

He's down.

There are three kids, yeah, lots of and he's like, what, it's not a big deal.

It's like you're even lying with your reveal of the lie. Wow, Like these are your children that you don't really take. Everyone kept saying I can't wait to be a dad.

I want to be a dad. It's like you're a fucking dad.

Yeah, oh my god, these guys.

And it's like are the men always bad? Like are there are the women bad?

Oh?

Yeah?

That was like Jesse mess Messica, No, there are crazy women of course.

Well, I remember her from the first season.

There's like someone someone had a good theory that they think the girl that ended up with that rich guy is an escore.

It was a high end es score. That's like kind of the theory is about stuff. She's sad, so I don't I don't really know.

I don't know.

It's all a mess.

I don't think anyone's gonna get married except maybe the nerds, but like they don't even feel right. It's just I just don't get why people are so desperate at twenty six, Like that's what's confusing. Two maybe it's for television fame, and then I can kind of get it. But it's like those girls with this guy who lives with his mom, doesn't how to pay bills, doesn't not a clean, doesn't not a like truly even boil water for pasta, doesn't have a savings like nothing, and she is like live soocks,

I don't stay.

Are they in now?

Are they in North Carolina or something? Yeah?

In North Carolina? DC, Virginia like that kind of an area.

Okay, I don't know why everyone's so fucking anxious at twenty six.

It's uh wild, well.

That's what I mean.

It's just like it's weird. They're just making such concessions. Yeah, Like it's like this girl's like, yeah, I always date hat guys, but I am attracted him and then he ends up like being shitty Anyways.

It's just like I.

Don't get what they're talking about in all of those like dates where they can't see each other, that don't betray the fact that this guy's never paid a bill and doesn't know how to do anything in life. Like she didn't realize any of that, or she did it just because he's a liar.

He's like, I'm a professional football player, but he wasn't. He played in the XFL, Like it's not the NFL. He's also a kicker. He was like, yeah, I'm hotter than Travis Kelcey.

He's not. What is THEFL again?

I think it was like they had spikes or something, you know, they were like extra rough and tumble, and then there's just different leagues like into arena football, like you can still have a career and that's great, but like you can't tell people you're in football that that you're hotter than Travis Kelcey and you're actually living in your parents' basement. And this is like the movie failure to launch, Like I don't know what we're.

Supposed to do.

I know, it's like I don't understand how they think it's gonna end up. But it's TV, right, they just want to be famous.

I'm happy fifteen because it doesn't make sense because even when they're just like it's just too delusional for me, they're like, yeah, we've had a fight and we talked it over and we just know everything about each other. And it's like, but you do know that relationships take time and change, Like you must know this as a human, right, Yeah, this isn't this isn't long lasted.

Like I don't know it's she's gonna.

Find out about the three children that you have.

It's not one, it's three.

But it's like the manipulation, like maybe I'll get her and then she'll just put up with whatever, because he's obviously been able to put up with like women have let him treat them like shit and not take care of his children.

Do you think though, that this kind of thing is like a symptom. I guess I'm like asking, is this like Chicken or the egg? Is this is this kind of thing like a symptom of the fact that we're like in the age of the scam right now, and that like people are constantly lying to each other with online dating, Like women are online every day making tiktoks like crying where they're like, we've been dating for a few weeks, everything was going great.

Turns out he just got out of jail.

Everything he told me was a lie, like blah blah blah, Like is that Do you think shows like this kind of tell guys, oh, just lie and like they'll fall in love with you eventually, like for your fucking personal I don't know what it tells them. Or do you think the scamming is just like what's being shown on these shows like what you know, Chicken or Egg?

No, I think this is what men do outside the pods as well. Yeah, I think I think or both. I mean, people lie to date, but I think that's the whole thing. Men will do, like the lie and offer things and be like oh yeah, I'm gonna I like that movie.

Oh I love that.

Yeah, yeah, I work here, and then it's like, well, once we fuck, I'll never talk to you again. Like I think that's part of dating, Like yeah, is lying.

Yeah, but what I guess I mean like the Little Way to White Lies. Persuasion is different to me than like lying about fundamental shit like what you do for a living, like the fact that whether you've been to prison or not, like whether you have children, Like these are massive, unavoidable part They're not like opinion sways about like you know what I mean.

Like people are lying about huge things.

And I just don't understand cognitively, like what they think is gonna happen because the truth will come out. But then are they is it? Like they don't care or like I don't get why people are doing it in real life. I don't get why people are doing it on the shows. Like I just don't get it, Like what's causing this?

Is it?

Just like because we are in the age of scamming, Like everybody's trying to scam everybody right, well, I.

Mean are you watching Real Housewives of New York right now?

Yeah, Like her husband of many years sold a bunch of bit and does all this stuff, and like someone tweeted, like once a man on TV goes, you know, it's a lot of work keeping up with your lifestyle. It's like he's going to go to prison any minute, and that's your partner forever. I mean, we we've talked about the case, but there was a man drugging his wife and letting the neighborhood raper for year, you know what

I did have friends in high school whose dad's had second families multiple so I guess you're right. It's like been forever, and it's probably just more conscious now because now but people now there's no documentaries about it. Tindler Swindler and like all these like.

Or they think, Okay, this woman's going to be in love with me, so then by the time I tell her I have three kids, she'll like.

Put up with it. She'll be so happy to meet my three kids. Oh my god, Well, I.

Think the producers bully them to get to the wedding even if they were going to break up.

So yeah, I don't know.

But arrently, she's husband fucking took money behind her back that wasn't hers and spent it that wasn't his.

Like that was a wild thing. And he was like, I didn't want to cause you any more stress.

It's like, this is stressing me out, that you're going to buy my back and spending our money.

Fuck.

Ugh, housewives, we're in a golden age. I'm so behind. I haven't watched Potomac yet. I got a I just caught up last night on a bunch of OC New York and Tall Lake.

I'm caught up on those, but OC I have to finish and I have to Oh see is wild? What's going on? Oh my god, I'm so behind.

I know. I just want a Lexis to get fucked over. You know, I just thought, oh my god, she's really really hard to deal with. Okay, Oh but Amy Landecker is a icon. She's so cool. I love people that love their work. And yeah, her journey that was amazing. I could have talked to her for like another three hours.

She was amazing. Yeah, I'm a fan. I'm a fan. I love love love.

Let's move on to what what'd this stripeg do?

This week?

For our WWSPD, we'd like to point you to the Domestic Abuse Victim Advocate Locator on the Military one Source site. Terry one Source is a program that provides resources and support to active duty, National Guard and Reserve service members

Thank you so much for that, and next week we will be doing the Presence of Absence that makes Sense from season twenty four, episode sixteen. Thanks so much for listening, Love you guys, Bye. That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.

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Down the dun

Yeah,