Fault w/ Lou Diamond Phillips

Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on. These are our stories. Done done.

Hi, Welcome to That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast.

This is my co host Kara, and.

This is my co host Liza. So great to see you again, my love. Yeah, oh that was really sweet. Well, I have to explain.

You know, we talk about an episode of SVU, we talk about the true crime it's based on, and we have a celebrity guest from the episode.

Yeah, but call me my love again. That was cute. What's up with you, my love? What's how's your week going?

I mean, we had a pretty fun day yesterday eating Chipotle, and it has ruined my day the next day, I am having some problems.

Yeah, we ate Chipotle yesterday. You guys came over.

I woke I had an interesting wake up because my toddler woke up a little bit sick. She's got like a little bit of a runny nose, and she woke up and she said to my husband, my nose feels crazy. So I think that's kind of like the new way I'm going to talk about being sick.

Oh, of course.

It's just I love hearing her figure things out, Like instead of saying big, you know, she says heavy, Like yeah, it's cool to see the way the brain processes and learns how to communicate.

It's been a joy. And she know she's cute.

But also I'm currently wearing you can't see, but I'm currently wearing my that's messed up hot pink tank top, which is available on our merch store, please go buy. And I put that on this morning and I was in the bathroom with her and.

She goes, that's Lisa's shirt.

It's like, well yeah, I was like, yeah, we both have it. She's like, why did you steal Lisa's shirt. She's she's got a she's a little bit of a baby baby Benson. She's got a very ingrained sense of right and wrong. Like today Jared was talking on my phone and I had his phone in my hand, and she was.

Like, give Dada back his phone. That's not your phone, that's his. Like she's so perceptive.

Yeah, she's definitely your child. There's no way she's not. I was gonna say, I have caught up on the current season of lonod svo.

Oh my gosh, the last few episodes.

The actress that was in Homeland, who played Mandy Patankin's.

Wife, Yes, she's in.

She's so good because I remember you saying you watched that episode and you were crying, and I definitely cried. Yeah, I just like it just was really like I think they did such a good job just like encompassing how desperate times have been for people during COVID, Like I think a lot of us have been lucky, we've squeaked through,

You know, no, it's an intense season.

I also want to say, like when will they stop holding Benson hostage?

Like when will it aunt how many more times?

This one was like a little bit of a more low stakes hostage situation. Did you really ever think that this woman was going to shoot Olivia.

I mean, right, no, but I got maybe with since she's not a professional gun user, she could have we you know, do some damage. I also, I have noticed all the Black Lives Matter flags in the in the background of everything. I appreciate that. And I also love that. I mean, I love iced tea. I love that he's in love. I can't get enough.

Yeah, his love is fun and careesy as a girlfriend. Yeah, no one told me.

No one tweeted it, no one instant story, no dms like, no one. It never came up. I just am kind of disappointed in the listeners.

Well, he's dating this new woman, and I don't know that it's going to make it past that last episode that we just the first and last episode we saw her in.

Yeah, I know, but because I also liked with Rollin's dad when the dad was like, you don't accept Careese's love because you don't think that you're good enough for him, And that made me empathize with Rollins in a way. I never have you we all think she's just a dumb bitch, but really she is.

You know, I wouldn't say we all.

She does have several dedicated fan pages, but you specifically hate her, you know, we get dms. People agree, But I think that we are watching the evolution of your You're starting to like her. I see, yeah, I've been watching that from the beginning where you're like just shut up, rons, and now you're like, love that messy bun.

Like I'm seeing the progression. I do love messy buns, Lisa.

I was going to tell you about Careesy, but I got too nervous to tell you because i'd it, wasn't sure how you would feel and if it would like upset you.

That's a true fact. No, I want Coriesy to have love.

I want him to feel the love that he wants to give, you know, let him be a stepdad already, like he wants it so fucking bad.

So true. Oh I wanted to tell you, Lisa. So okay.

So we had a couple we talk about in cells on this podcast a lot and a lot of people. A couple people have written us being like, what are you saying when you say in cell? And I guess it's not like a fully universal term yet, but sadly

Forums, it's just who you are. It's your personality.

And a lot of in cells have like done murders and like mass shootings and stuff like that, but based on like they're the philosophy, Like it's a.

Very what's crazy is?

I know for a fact there are women that are involuntarily celibate all over town.

Why are they punching people? You know?

Like I just don't.

Yeah, I've been involuntarily celibate for over a year of my life before and I never killed anybody. And I and I went on Naria chat room to talk about it. But I was reading this article that one of our friends in New York sent me that is about this plastic surgeon in Indiana who does surgery on in cells to like make them like sort of classically hot, to make them like angular and jaw like cut jaws, big lips.

You know what I mean.

Like and it's just like a really wild because like people like one guy in the article like flew from Jesus. I forget where he is, maybe South Africa or something to Indian Indianapolis to.

Get his face.

Just readone and they're doing multiple surgeries and this guy in Indiana. This is in The Cut, which is part of New York Magazine. This article, if you want to look it up, it's called how Many Bones Would You Break to Get laid?

Is the is the headline? Great title? Yeah? And I don't know. I just thought it was interesting.

I wanted to bring it up to you because it's just crazy, how like these guys And honestly, they show pictures of some.

Of these guys, they're not that bad looking.

Nobody has like deformities, Like they're not that bad looking. It's like, if you could learn to like respect and listen and talk to women in a normal way, you would get laid.

Like, yeah, I actually just saw a post. I wonder I would have probably just disappeared. But it was like, if you can't be friends with a woman that's not fucking you, you're gonna actually be a bad romantic partner anyways, because I think you have to be friends with your partner. You can't just and if you're together with someone for a long time, there's gonna be times you can't fuck, Like if someone has their kidney removed or something. I

They think that other races are like taking away all the women, like they're they're nuts.

I mean, I don't have any sympathy for.

Them, but like, I just thought the article was interesting that there's this one guy in Indianapolis who's kind of like he basically is like, whatever you want to do, will do, Like he a lot of people, a lot of surgeons will not operate on people who have body dysmorphia. And this guy's like, no, if this is what you want, you can have it.

And he just like, but these people are going to be very surprised when this does not help them get laid. I know it's just not gonna happen, But I like that this guy is swindling in cells.

Like I'm not mad about it. Yeah, they're paying a lot too, Go buy a second house, don't.

He has like he has like patented silicone to like make your cheekbones higher and like have that like he does jawwidening to make them they all look like they all look like kind of like silly European models for Dulcia and Cabana, you know what I mean. Like it's like, Okay, this is a little bit too much.

The cut actually is doing great work. I think was it the cut? And so I don't know.

But ze Ways new show premiered and her press is amazing. She wore these one pair of Versace mules that I was like, are you fucking kidding me? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah those are so cool. They're sold out.

She wants them so that if you are looking for a new show, you guys have to watch z Way on showtime Ziwe z Way. She had an iconic Instagram live show that Lisa was a guest on.

Yeah, I regret some things I said. I mean, the whole point, her whole thing is like, you know, she's a black woman who's always or a lot of the times in white spaces, and it's uncomfortable to talk about race. So she kind of flips it and asks really like chill benine questions, but they are uncomfortable, and it's just like, I want to make white people uncomfortable. And I went on it, and I think I tried too hard not to be like I don't know, it's embarrassing to think about it.

I thought you were great. I thought you were great, and you do like yes, well, she was like, what do you think about black love? I'm like, Whinny and Bobby kind of messy. She's like that's what you think, and I'm.

Like, oh my god, oh my god.

And then the comments are going and they're like this dumb bitch read a book like it's it's really fun. But she interviewed Frand Leebowitz, who famously doesn't really do much press.

So it's like really really yeah, and she got glorious Steinem and that's on her pilot episode, So check it out if you're looking for a new show. I do have we should start, But you know, this is kind of my mo I one time was booked to do a MISS event and I thought it was for MS, so I just rolled in looking when it.

Was Miss Magazine.

It sure was, and so I was rushing. I booked a bunch of shows. I show up Kathen and Jimmy's there, Glorious Steinem's there. It's a full red carpet, and I'm like performing in front of these women and meeting Glorious Steinem looking like trash, and I was like, I would have brought a friend. I would have put on a limb. Why were you not dressing up for MS? Because I had other spots. It was just like, oh, I have a night of spot. I'll have to raise money for

Not coming to her show. I have to stay. But it was MS magazine. Amazing.

Well, let's jump in because we've got a really really hot episode today, a classic episode, an amazing guest, a horrifying crime, the usual, so you know, get ready to be horrified.

Okay, okay.

Today is an episode many have asked for. It is an episode Neil Bear called one of his most haunting. Today we are doing Fault season seven, episode nineteen. Lisa, do you have thoughts of opening thoughts about this episode?

Yeah? I have some thoughts, but I don't know if we're keeping it a secret.

But okay, some good guest stars in this episode, some crimes, some relateationship testing moments.

It isn't a iconic Bensler episode, I think because there is some shit that goes down between them.

Yeah, and you know Stabler does not handle his emotions. He gets mad at the wrong person. I mean, it's classic in many ways. There's an airport moment or is it a bus? You know, it's just it's great. Okay.

So we open on a couple breaking up in a laundry room of a New York City apartment building.

You know, Patty, and the guy's name is who Cares.

So there, you know, she's in her laundry room and he comes in. He's like, I love you, but sometimes loves just not enough. She's like thanks, doctor Phil, and then whatever he leaves, and then she's just crying at the dryer, haven't we all? So then she hears a noise and she thinks it's her ex Tommy and this is like from the New York City Nightmare Treasure Trove, right, Like you're in your building's laundry room and like someone attacks you. It's like very no one's down there, it's

She was always nice to my bird, so I knew she was a good person.

We already we did an episode like that. You know, like there's a lot of birds.

Yeah, it's a lot of birds, and I don't know one person in New York with a bird.

No.

Also, Bretta is a fucked up name. Isn't that a gun name? Yeah? I think it's like it sounds very mafia gun to me.

So Patty goes to bring barretta but I'm sorry, So baratta.

Yeah, delicious.

Patty goes to bring Bretta back to Missus Clifford. She obviously knows this bird. This bird gets out all the time. It seems like she's like, God, this place is a mess, and it is a mess, but it's also like furniture is overturned. I don't know why she's not more shocked or like suspicious that something's gone on. People can be messy, but they don't usually have their coffee table like over on its side. She puts the bird back, and then she sees as she's leaving, she sees like a foot

It's pretty gross. So now we cut to the police. Are there?

Doctor Melinda Warner is giving us like the full expository rundown, no sign of forced entry. Simon Clifford is the man age forty seven.

I need everybody to go back to this.

Episode, pause on this man's face and tell me that is a forty seven year old man.

He looks sixty, so I don't know.

He has a full head of gray hair and a mustache. He does not look forty seven. I'm just saying, did you have any did did that ring for you?

Lisa? No, it didn't.

I'm really bad with ages. I feel like that's just not something I comprehend well. Like people will be like I'll talk about someone and the person I'm.

With will always ask how old is are they?

And I never have an idea. Okay, well, I thought this man looked much older than forty.

Sive of him.

But my favorite age game is like when you go back and watch a rom common, someone is twenty seven and about to slit their wrists for not being married.

Like those are the moments I love.

I love what I'm like, Oh, I'm twenty five, Like my best friends are runaway b one of the weddings with Julia Roberts, she's like twenty seven and miserable, and it's like.

If you go back and watch the Bird Cage, Calista Flockhart.

Is nineteen marrying the guy and they're just like, they're a little young, but it's like nineteen. Anyway, times have changed, but.

Also as a culture, we do all look better than back in the day.

I think, yes, at the age of forty seven, but I still think this man looks like a not sixty years old if he's a day, but he has been dead for about five hours. His throat's been cut from behind, and it was a hunting knife used for butchering.

They and then Lilah Clifford is the wife. She was on the run.

It's not as clean of a attack because.

She was trying to escape.

And then we hear about the third victim, Amy Clifford, who is their sixteen year old daughter.

She has not been cut at all.

There is signs of sexual assault, but no seaman or spermicide. So doctor Warner is hypothesizing that either he couldn't get a boner or he got scared off and then he choked her to death. So then they're like, let me show you the kids room, and you're like bracing yourselves that there's going to be like two dead kids. But we go into this room and there's no bodies, no blood, and the two children that you normally occupy the room, Ryan age nine and Rebecca age seven, are missing.

Done, done credits.

I'd rather some missing kids than some slashed up dead kids in a bed.

I don't think we would see that. Yeah, we've seen it. We've seen it. We've seen it.

But at the beginning of the episode, that's a little our listeners are nuts.

They're like, do charisma.

We don't want to, we don't need, we don't need a house of dead children.

I mean, we'll do okay.

So tap of act one, Olivia is showing pictures of the kids to Kragan, and Cragan's out on the streets and we Craigan in the street, right.

I love a Craigan in the street.

He's got his little neozy's hat on and he is ready to give orders.

And the sheets you didn't even do with the fun. You're like, because I do.

The Craigan is a stabler in the sheets. You were saying, I want a Cragan in the streets and a Stabler in the sheet.

Yeah, you did nothing with that. I'm like, shh. I was sitting here waiting like she's gonna do a little joke.

No, I'm sorry, sorry, I didn't do that joke. I respect Ludacris too much. But you I want to say, you love that era of music too, It's I do. So that's a good Maybe that's a good idea for merch. Craigan in the streets Benceler Bence, no Stabler in the sheets, but half our audience probably.

Wants Benson in the sheets anyway, cut all of this, but that's not the game. I guess she does slap people around.

Okay, you don't know what she's like in bed, except I guess we've seen her like snuggle up in a man's shirt a couple of times.

All right, So the manhunt.

Is underway for this psychopath who has murdered his family and kidnap these two children.

So he Stabler finds out all this information.

He goes The family's lived here for seven years, the mom and dad have both been popped for drug possession. Their oldest son is in sing sing for armed robbery. So then it's like, oh, oh, Hallerin wants your attention. He's our hot rip tech who finds a bunch of footprints that are all kind of in a tight cluster, like of standing and walking in a circle that has

A good name. Sorry to that man. I'm sorry to this man.

So anyway, they got together after Glenn moved out. There was a big custody fight. They would get violin with each other all the time, and he was like, he came by a couple of nights ago, he threatened to kill her, and again, yeah, this landlord knows every personal family detail. So now we've got Glenn. He's an interrogation and he's like, it was all talk. I was just mad because she was going to move my kids to Florida. She's letting a drug addict raise my kids, and he's like,

Of the alphabet is H.

So eight eight stands for Kyle Hitler, and the guy goes, well, I like my ass the way it is, So I got a fall in with somebody.

That's an interesting quote. I mean, I think that's probably how a lot of people in prison feel.

I mean I think, yeah, you have to just do it. I just wonder if we went, like what else white Jews would.

Do oh late in like a lady jail. I don't know, like would the Nazis let us in or would we have no group to go to? Yeah, that's true. We wouldn't be able to go with the Aryan women. Were there Jewish women? Well, Cindy Cindy in Orange's New Black Converts, but just something she ality has her group of friends.

Yes, send anything, but if you guys have any ideas for what gangsley's then I can join. When we're in prison. We would really appreciate it. Send those straight to the DMS. So this guy says, there's no way I pissed anyone off enough to kill my entire family. And he's basically like, I'm not. My stepdad is scum. He hangs out with scums, so he's probably like, it's my stepdad or somebody connected to him. And he said he talked to Rebecca a week ago and that she was home midday from school,

She was upset because.

There was a man hanging outside the school yard, and by the time another kid came and told me about it, I went out there. Rebecca was right up at the fence and this guy was jerking off and Rebecca was just standing there traumatized. So she pulled her away, and then she and a bunch of other girls who saw this were upset and they all got sent home early. And the teacher goes, but I drew this just in case,

Of this character that we're about to meet.

So they're at the precinct talking about how they're going to get the drawing out to the media, and they're like, oh, Lilah Clifford's bank account just got emptied out, and apparently it was only like sixty dollars. So they try to go get the ATM footage, but before they do that, we do see Ryan and Rebecca's faces on NY one, which is I know we're not allowed to stay iconic anymore, but I and NYC icon Sorry, I love n Y one.

One time I thought I was going to be hosting the Halloween parade for New York one, but I wasn't. But I told everyone I was what like I was just going to be interviewed for my costume during the parade, but I thought I was going to be the correspondent.

And so I was like, and so I brought a friend.

Everyone at the cellar like put the TVs on, and they're like, you weren't on the TV.

And I was like, where was the miscommunication, Lisa?

Maybe my dreams were bigger than my reading comprehension.

And I was just like, like the word host was just not in it anywhere.

No.

I was waiting and waiting, and then I like they kept interviewing other people in front of me, and I was like, I thought I was going to be interviewing people Like I just assumed I was going to be the host and it wasn't it was their newscasters.

So, oh my god, Lisa trigger the grand Marshal of the Halloween career.

I wish one day and one day.

So they do check this ATM footage and they see that this guy made Ryan use the ATM. There's like you can see just like like the little corner of a kid's head.

Going up to use the ATM. And uh.

Meanwhile, Olivia gets a call. They've got an idea on the sketch, so they had to outdoor Adventures and this guy bits perfectly into the cannon of SVU side characters. He remembers an exact order that somebody made at his outdoor store one month ago. He remembers everything he bought. I understand maybe remembering that he got the telephoto lens, because it is that he got this telephoto lens camera

Not fit the criteria?

And Wang explains, you know, psychotherapy encourages you to express your desires and thoughts without fears of being punished, So technically, I don't think they can take what he says in therapy sessions and like use it against him. So even though there's all this evidence that he would probably reoffend, I guess it was like not enough criteria for a civil commitment. So now we go to Pennsylvania and talk to doctor Paula. Greenfield, who we've already seen in our

Sandra Bernhard vibes to me.

And if you recognize her, it's because she played Marcy, the woman in Serendipity who helped that pregnant woman find the baby parents who worked at the flavor factory. Yes, remember, she was like, we got along really great, Like she worked at like a suicide hotline and you're not supposed to become friends with people, but she like, she got along great with that woman and then helped her give

Just kidding.

I moved around all the time because my dad was in the military. Like he just was lying all the time. And she said, you know, eventually you just realize he's playing you. He's never telling the truth ever. And Huong's like, these are the worst kinds of offenders because they really make you believe you can help them, and Greenfield's like, you can't help a sociopath. It's this whole debate about sex offenders being cured, like I can't cure you of needing oxygen to breathe.

Which is interesting because there is.

Research about, you know, whether you can cure sex offender, whether their urges can be like with hell. But someone like this, I think it's different because it's not just a sexual desire.

It's like a violet.

It's like a desire for violence that I don't think you can get from, like you know, being in a consensual relationship or looking at pornography or whatever. So she says, basically, he sees weakness in you and he exploits it. And she said for her, her weakness was her revulsion of him. So he was like super detailed and would sit and like weave these tales of torturing children like it was

I don't know if any of this is going to help you.

So then Huang and Kragan are back at the precinct watching one of these video sessions of Gaetano, and that's when we learn that he is played by Oscar nominated legend and Lou Diamond Phillips. So I'm obsessed with him from La Bamba and here he is as a serial killer and he's confessing to like, you know, cutting a kid and all this blood that comes out, and it's just really gross because he is really talking about it, almost like it's romantic.

It's really disgusting.

And this is intercut with scenes of Huang interviewing one of Gaetano's victims. And I've always remembered this interview, like from when I watched this episode years and years ago, i always have remembered this interview with this guy because it's just so sad, how like he just lives in a bubble of trauma, and like he says, like, I never knew people could do things like that to your body or be so evil, and he's basically like, I don't leave the house.

I work online.

I haven't gone outside in years, but you know, I've got TV and I can order anything I want off the internet.

And it's not a bad life, not a bad life at all.

And I just always remember that monologue as for lack of a better word, haunting.

Yeah, this comes up a lot, and I've been thinking about it a lot.

How so much like quote.

Unquote bad behavior, like these things stay with you and just how much trauma people are carrying around, and that we need to stop judging people for their wacko behaviors and realize like or try to think like, oh what made them like this?

Right, instead of just being mad at people.

Yeah, I'm just honestly, Hunting Ground has taken over for the worst interview for me, because like the rope mark on her neck.

Do you remember, oh, the girl that's in the that's in the mental institution?

Yeah, like yeah that one. When you were like this interview fucked me up. I was like that Hunting Ground one has not left my brain for sure.

So basically now they're saying they're getting more clear picture of this guy, and they're like if the kids are around still and alive, they won't be for long, so like we got to move fast. So then they get a tip that there's been a sighting of Gaetano at the George Washington Bridge bus terminal, where I've never been.

I think, Lisa, you said you've been there one time. I've been on the bridge. I don't know about the bus terminal.

Oh, I thought you said, Oh no, sorry, it was Hannah. Hannah's been there. So we meet this fucking money transfer guy. I can't stand this guy. Whenever I watch this episode, I want to punch this guy in the face.

Look, he's very smart.

He works at a money transfer place where Gaetano came and he recognized him because he recognized the kids. The kids look like zombies and were just like standing there traumatized.

So this guy is smart.

He told him, oh, I don't have your wire transfer yet, but it's coming in.

It'll be here by four, and he stalled him so he could call the cops. Very smart.

That's where this man's intelligence ends. Then he has no chill at all. They're all hanging around the bus station waiting for Guyitana to show up, and this guy is sitting there like wide eyed, like doing a cartoon impression of somebody who's nervous.

It's definitely top like comedic moments on SVU, I would say.

I mean, he won't stop looking at this killer, Like it's like just look down at a piece of paper and draw a smiley face, like do something else besides look so fucking obviously terrified.

And he keeps talking to Stabler, like he keeps talking and Stablers like shut the fuck up.

Yeah, because like this guy's looking over and seeing a man staring directly at him, button using his mouth to talk to the person that's in front of him. Like it's completely it's just like, oh, he's driving me nuts. And it's also like you're behind glass and the cops are everywhere. Why are you worried that something's gonna happen to you? Like he's like, don't leave me here, I'm

People are just falling, packages are flying.

They're all like you know, splitting up and taking different taxs and trying to find this guy head him off up here, blah blah blah. Suddenly, like a whole massive people start running. Stabler's running against the flow of traffic, and we don't really know why they're running. Maybe Gaetano was like there and just pulled a knife or something. And then Elliott sees the little boy, Ryan just standing there dazed and looking at him, and he's like, Ryan,

With Ryan and Rebecca.

So Stabler has to think which I guess an escalator seems like a sketchy They're so slow moving, I don't know.

Stable has to think fast.

He's like, do I chase the kids and the guy, or do I check on Olivia, Like he may have just like hit her full corotid artery which is not in her butt, and like she could be dying, right, So he decides to check on Olivia.

She's like, I'm okay, I'm okay, go find Gaetano.

You can tell he really thinks that he has like he when he comes up to her, like, he looks like no, like she's dying, So you can tell that he thinks it's really serious, but it is more of a nick. And then Stabler gets upstairs and there's a crowd of people gathered around, and Fin's like, don't come over here.

He killed Ryan.

He slid his throat, and Stabler is like super super shook, and Gaetano has disappeared with Rebecca into the crowd. I don't understand the skills of these killers. Should just move through crowds holding a child, and I don't know. I guess everybody was getting out of the way because he has a hunting knife in his hand. So now Elliott is freaking out about how close he was just saving the boy. And Elliot's like brooding and all mad, and Olivia is like trying to console him, and he's like, please,

Clearly it's like, yeah, it is your fault. It's like, you know what I mean, it is your fault. You fucked up? Would you rather hear that right now? You got a kid killed?

What do you want?

They are It's like you don't want anyone to be nice to you, then I'll tell you the truth. It's your fault.

She never said, Elliott, help me come over here, like he made Yeah, So we get into this, but basically they're having this little.

Argument over like where he could have gone.

And then uniformed officers like, there's a carjacking two blocks up the street.

They like assume this has to do with.

I guess it's probably fits that Gaetano's description. So they get to the street of.

This car jacking. This woman is like, they took my car. He had a kid with him, I just got out of the car. Blah blah blah. She's hysterical.

And then Elliott all of a sudden, out of nowhere, just picks up a pipe because there's just pipes lying around in New York, guys, it's the city that never doesn't have pipes lying around and just slams the window in of this car, and Olivia is like, what the fuck are you doing? And he's like, this car has a flat tire and look, check out, there's no tags. He obviously came to this block for a certain reason and this is his car, and Olivia is doubting him, and he turns out to be right.

He Stabler finds a notebook with a.

Guy's name on it and the name of the money transfer place and an amount of money in a phone. So they bring in this guy who's the one who's supposed to be sending Gaetano the money, and he's like, I only know him from the Air Force. We haven't seen each other in twenty years. Stabler's like trying to do this bad cop shit, like if I find out you're lying, I'll fucking wear your head for breakfast or whatever. I don't know what am I even talking about, Like

As a shield.

There were civilians everywhere. I couldn't get a shot, Like I mean, you have to agree with her, like she's not going to endanger other people. And then he's like, I can't be looking over my shoulder all the time to see if you're okay, and I need to know you can do your job and not wait for me to come to the rescue.

So kind of fucked up this stuff. And she's like, you know, that's not how it is.

But then Craigan Daddy Egan comes up and breaks up the kids fighting and he threatens to suspend them. Suddenly it's like we get that call that they get, you know, once per episode.

At least, Warner's got to show you guys something.

So they go to see Melinda Warner the Emmy and she shows them that there is something phosphorescent all over the jacket that Ryan was wearing. Elliott is really continuing to just be the mayor of asshole City, and he's just like, what do we here for a light show?

Like what is this? Like what is it?

Just like I mean, if you're running it for tests, like why did you bring us down here? Like and then he just kind of walks out and Warner goes, Sometimes all that brooding intensity is just annoying, and I'm like, put it.

On a T shirt, Doctor Warner. I love it.

I mean, if you told me fifteen years ago that I would be hating on Stabler this hard, I would never have believed you.

I can't believe how much I've turned on him recent like revisiting and such.

We've all grown this toxic maxculinity will not stand man. So Warner also has a cell phone that she found with the boy, and Olivia's like, well, we found all that, we accounted for all the cell phones, so this one

Yeah.

And I also was about to say, when has Melinda ever failed you?

Motherfucker? Yeah? When has she ever played games with? You? Always comes through right.

Sometimes I have had the thought before, why wasn't this a phone call you? Know, because sometimes they do go all the way to the Emmy's office and it's like.

Okay, I feel like you could have texted that.

You know why it's not a phone call because it's not cinematic and we need to see her.

I know, of course, Okay, sorry, I believe I believe you. I'm just saying this.

In this instance, it's like she had to give you the cell phone and the other information is important too, So he's just being a bitch. And now, well, well Olivia's out there chasing down fucking lists of places this guy has been. Elliott's just like showing up at Huang's office like crying because he basically won't go see a therapist.

And he's like.

I wish I didn't, and Houanng's like care so much and he's like, that's what makes you a good partner, and it's like okay, and then he goes, she made me turn away and he's like how how did she make you do anything? And this is the full philosophy of the summer camp that I went to where as a counselor, they taught us like this whole philosophy of uh well, it's been called many things. Reality therapy control theory, but like basically the idea that no one makes you

We basically find.

Out that this is a chemical that like was involved with sort of like a simulation of nuclear testing, So it would be probably found at an old military facility or like a current military facility. So Stabler Menson meet up at this industrial site in New Jersey, a metal plating facility, but it was once a military facility, so they're kind of they feel like they're getting closed. The place looks totally shut down, perfectly great place to hide a child and hide out if you're a wanted fugitive.

Drop your weapon, shoot him, drop your wepon, shoot him. It's like really really intense, and I don't know what I would do. I mean I would probably just cry or so, I don't know.

So there's a full standoff happening in this final act of the episode. It's just like Olivia is trying to talk Victor down, but you know, he's like this full sociopath, so he's lying.

He's like, I killed Rebecca. Oh no, wait, just kidding, she might still be alive.

I think I left her in a van in Newark, like you guys can go find her, like you know, he's giving them all these lies, but you can tell he's getting spooped because like the Eludaimon, Phillips is doing a lot of like really good facial acting where he's like, oh, actually you know, and you can kind of he's not like the most cool, calm serial killer of all time, Like he's definitely realizes he's being closed in on because he knows there's backup coming, and he's like, you know,

My reflexes are pretty good.

I could shoot your partner before I go down, like all this stuff, and then at one point he goes, uh, but yeah, try it. Definitely, it'll probably turn out great. And I thought that was really funny. I was like, look at this funny serial killer. He just had a little bit of comedy.

And Stabler is so annoying in this scene that I'm on the side of the killer.

It's like it's too much. He's screaming at Ben. Yeah, he just keeps going shoot him. It's like it's a lot.

So they totally realize he's lying about the girl like that, I mean they think pretty much that he's killed her, and they're just Ellie and Olivia are just making like intense, prolonged eye contact for a lot of this standoff, and then Olivia says I'm.

Sorry at one point or sorry, and I can't tell.

If it's because she's about to shoot him or because she's refusing to shoot him.

And then suddenly, out of nowhere, a sniper like blows.

Gaetano's face off, Like a guy from the NYPD comes in from the side quiet and has just you know, suspect down.

What if it was a cop from Italy just visiting, just helping.

Sorry, because they trade people, yeah, you know, they send their man in Rome over there and all that. So yeah, a member of the Carabinieri from Rome shoots guy Dona's face off, and then Elliott and Olivia are just kind of standing there staring at each other. It's really intense, Like the other cops are moving in kind of to assess the scene, and these two are just staring at each other.

And then suddenly they hear like something faint off in the distant.

Elliot's like, everybody be quiet, and they can kind of hear a child's crying, whining and so they investigate in the warehouse, they find Rebecca in a crate.

She's alive.

So that's like the small silver lining on this horrific episode of crime.

I'm also acting like so annoyed, but it's only because I've seen this episode dozens of times and it is a really intense, scary scene. If you don't know what's going to happen, Yes, you know, you're like Stabler, your fucking mouth, Benson know what's up. But then you're like Benson, he like lou Diamond Phillips is you know, he's a lunatic.

He'll kill all of you like it is.

Yeah, it is a very intense, awesome scene. I understand why Neil Bhaer loves it.

Yeah, it's a it's really I mean, this episode fully tests their relationship the whole time. So at the hospital we find out that Rebecca's okay, Like, because they were on the run so much, he didn't really have much time to inflict any physical injury on her, so she's actually pretty okay. Besides the trauma of about her whole family being fucking killed.

She's not okay, but she's physically okay.

She will never be okay, right, and Ellie and Olivia are kind of having a heart to hear and she and He's like, I know you would have taken the shot and she's like, no, I wouldn't have, Like you expect me to cause your death to take you away from your children and your wife, like and then she says what about me? Like the idea of living without Stabler is so unthinkable to her, Like how could I possibly have ended your life or been part of that?

Is the one that's going to call off the partnership?

But really it's like Olivia, like, I think she realizes how much he is meaning.

To her, But what's the next episode? This isn't before, like because they don't switch off partner. No, what happens he has a new partner. He teams up with a new partner to investiato sexual. It's called Fat.

Yes, okay.

Fat is a really funny episode, and Anthony Anderson is like a dick and a brute, and Craigan pairs them up so Stabler can learn what it's like to work with someone that doesn't know how to follow the rules.

Yes, and I believe also this coincided with her taking a pregnancy leave.

Yes, well, because I was also gonna say, I don't know why I said this episode so funny. I always was fine with it. But the actress Rooney Mara has talked shit about.

Being on SVU and this episode. She's just been like she's just been like that episode was fucking stupid, Like she just didn't her dad like.

Owns the Giants and she's a billionaire. He's like the page like each parent owns an NFLT. Yeah, I'm sure she's like, why did I bother doing one episode of episodic television? Like who caresn't she with somebody like terrible right now?

Like yeah, walking Phoenix, Syla buff Oh No, yeah, walking.

Okay, let's take a quick break, any break, and then Lisa will take us through the true crime.

Hello, welcome back. This crime is bad and the criminal is bad. And I don't know if this is good news or not. But he did just actually die March twenty ninth, twenty twenty one.

He died of brain cancer in jail.

So you know, if you want to pop a champagne glass while you listen to the rest of this, maybe you'll be happy. He did have like he got charged and convicted of with like ten life sentences and ten death penalties, like he was gonna die in prison no matter what. And I don't know whatever. It's brain cancer. So Lou Diamond Phillips character is based on Joseph Edward Duncan. And what's wild is they made Lou Diamond Phillips character have three names too. There is a lot of similarities.

A lot of serial killers have three names because you don't want to you don't want to mix them up with someone else.

Oh is that what it is? Yeah?

Because like if there was like another serial code named Lisa Traeger, like when you want it to be like Liza Mercedes Trager or.

Something like that. So that it's like, that's not me, that I'm my middle name. Wow.

They do it on purpose, so it's not like John Wayne Gacy goes by John Wayne Gacy.

They were just like yeah, because Joseph Duncan, you got to think is a pretty kind of easy name. I think one of the only people that isn't is like Ted Bundy isn't. Jeffrey Dahmer isn't. But a lot of serial killers go by three names.

That is really cool. I like learning that information you can always learn. Should I stop going by three names?

Oh? That is one of my favorite trends on Twitter.

Like when we all hate someone and then someone has to be like, I'm a different Mike Pence, you know, yeah, it's not me, and they all interact with each other being like, oh, I got it bad, so I enjoy it.

Yeah.

Like do you remember when Becky with the Good Hair thing came out and everybody was confusing Rachel Ray with Rachel Roy. Yes, and everybody was sending Rachel Roy like they were like putting bees in all of her Instagram. It's like, that's not that's Rachel Ray.

I love it.

So this takes place in Cordelaine Idaho. I don't know if I'm saying it right. I spelled it phonetically so I wouldn't fuck it up. And then it still looks insane.

Yeah, Curdalaane I think is what it is.

Yeah, Cordelaine, Cordlino, Idaho, Idaho, Idaho, not Ohio potatoes, Okay.

So it's a town.

You know, no one fucking lives in an, Idaho, So it's a chill place. There's fishing vacations. It's not a bustling metropolis. So it's a calm town. And then May sixteenth, two thousand and five, the most brutal crime in the area.

That has ever happened happened.

It was a Monday afternoon and Robert Hollinsworth calls the cops and he's just a man walking in the neighborhood and walks to his neighbor's house and there's blood stains all over the front door.

So he calls the police.

And it is a small town, so the cop is like, well, I know that family, and so he goes over there and he sees the blood in the front door. So he walks around and in the back there's also blood on the back door and the back doors propped open a little bit, so we obviously know something fucked up is happening, and he calls for backup immediately. And so the house is Brenda Grony and she lives with her boyfriend Mark McKenzie and there and her three kids, so

I really enjoy it. I wish I didn't, since horrific things are about to happen.

So after backup comes all the cops, they enter the house and they find a young female and male face down and bound with their hands behind their back, and then their heads were mutilated. So these people were a bludgeoned multiple times in the head and it's just very severe head trauma. There were three bodies and they were organized head to toe, so it's like an open square with a gap missing. I don't know if you need to know the positioning of the bodies, but they were

Other kids are alive. So it was just, I'm sure it's so many feelings to.

Juggle, like, and this is the biological dad like Glenn in the episode, exactly. Yeah, I'm I'm actually pretty shocked how close sview really like grasped onto some of these details. Usually it's pretty funky and they've really stuck. They really stuck to a lot of key facts of this case. So an amber alert goes out no clues. Really, I remember this, by the way, like you're living in New York City. I remember these two kids being missing. This was like on national news. I feel like I remember

I do not remember it.

Does it did go international since like they just couldn't find them for so long and it was so brutal, but damn not international. It went national, but they just had a really hard time with the case. There was no witnesses, fingerprints, weapons, like nothing, so they had to spend their time learning about the victims and work outward because there was no evidence left behind. So the background on the family is Brendan Mark dated seven years great relationship.

I bet we would be on vacation with them in Palm Springs.

The crime was so violent that they assumed it was someone that knew the family and had a lot of anger towards these people, but confused about the kidnapping, like why wouldn't you snatch the kids when they're walking home from school or going to the store to get candy, Like why are you killing parents and taking kids? There's lots of easier ways to snatch kids. Stay tuned, I'll teach you how, Okay. So they were like it has

And so what made people suspicious of the dad was he was.

On television and he made a wild statement like a plea to the killer, and was like they had nothing to do with this. Leave them alone and bring them home safely. And so everyone's like, have to do with what, bitch?

Yeah, what does that mean? Yeah?

So everyone just like assumed he you know, maybe he owed money. I don't know, but they're like, what the fuck are you talking about? And so they gave him a polygraph to see if there was weird things. There was one moment of weird things with the voice. But Ronie's like, I was home alone the night of the murders, and they found cell phone and laptop records to prove that he was home, so he did have an alibi

They've both been in a lot of trouble.

They were bad teens, you know, drug users, and Jesse had an airtight alibi because he was in jail. So that's great news for armed robbery. And then Vance, they came away with investigating him that he had no involvement, and they felt really confident in that decision. So they excluded everyone in the family. Now what did they do? So the cops went to the tip So they started

And Mark two thousand dollars. So they're like, okay, is this a money thing.

They tried to find him to interview him, but it was really hard to find him, and so they got an a warrant to track his cell phone to find him, and it was super hard to locate him. And more suspicious that right after the murders took place, he took off time.

He like went on vacation to Boise.

So he's nowhere to be found and they're like, he's avoiding us because he knows something. But he had a parole officer, and so the parole officer contacted him and was like, they're looking for you, bro, and he came rushing back to town. Okay, so he wanted to clear this up. He said that they.

Grilled for hours with they grill, Oh, they grilled him for hours. This is not about the barber they grilled. This is not about the barbecue anymore.

So they grilled this guy for hours. He denied to have anything to do with these murders. He offers to take a lie detector test, he passes it, and again like so they've cleared everyone and they have to go to the more tips tips was maybe it was a biker gang situation because the weapon was a hammer, and I guess outlaw bikers do hammer jobs, like that's their

A lot of dead ends in this case. They can't crack it.

And now by this time, the blood at the crime scene comes back like all of the testing, we have our own, Melinda Warner, and none of the blood is Shasta or Dylan's. So that's good and that, you know, is hopeful that the kids are alive somewhere. But what's sad is it was the thirteen year old boys. So it was his blood all over, which means that he was like injured, bleeding in pain, walking around the house and then dropped by his mom to fucking die next

But there is a twist.

Toxicology reports say that the parents did weed and meth hours before they were killed, so they're like, can this be a violent drug gang? So they start looking at the local skid head gangs that have been robbing people. But none of the theories they had explain the child factor. So that's what was so hard. It's like, why wouldn't you kill everyone? Why are you taking seth? Like just it didn't The case didn't make sense to anyone. Top behavior analysis people are having trouble figuring it out.

It's just not typical because.

Usually they have like serial killer experts and child abduction experts and none of them can kind of figure it out. There was also no patterns out there that matched the crime, so then why would you take the kids, So it's like, is it a ransom? Is it to sell them into slavery? And so then they were like, if you find out why the children are taken, maybe that'll help us solve the crime. By the end of May, there's one hundred and fifty people working around the clock to solve this crime.

So it's yeah.

It's like I saw three guys a mile away from where this happened, and they looked weird.

I mean, yeah, it is kind of I.

Mean, I hope to help solve the crime one day, or well, I hope no crimes ever happened around me too.

Okay.

So another informant calls as an anonymous tipster and was like, I think some of my associates I heard them talking about burying some bodies in Silver Valley, Idaho. So he calls with that and he gives the names of the three guys. I don't who cares, Mike, Ray, Ben, Okay, these are the guys. The guys like I heard them talking about bearing a body. They did all have a criminal record, and they drove a car that was similar

She recognized Shasta's photo and she.

Said Shasta had down hands in a prayer position and body language just screamed help me. So she went over to the table like everything was normal. She took the orders and then snuck back into the rest like snuck to the back of the restaurant and told the manager to call nine one one, And when the squad car pulled up, she walked outside and was like, you need a call for backup. I am positive that this is

Like she fucking handled Take a note. Take a note from this waitress, you little bitch. You gotta act like nothing is wrong.

So they enter cautiously and walk him out to the squad car with the no real issues, and then the cop grabbed Amber and was like, hey, go sit with the girl. And so Amber said that she sat with Shasta and that.

She started to cry and so and how long is she She's been with this man for two months now? Yeah?

Wow?

Yeah, And so Shasta's rushed to the hospital and Steve, the biological father, reunites with his daughter. So now they have Joseph Edward Duncan in custody. He's from North Dakota and they just they just start interrogating him, and this is like so crazy. He's a level three sex offender and a fugitive from an old molestation case from Minnesota. His first sex crime occurred in nineteen seventy eight when he was fifteen years old, and at that point he

So he went to jail in nineteen eighty and he stayed in jail for fourteen years and ninety four, and then he was released and so, and then he committed a bunch of crimes because he got out six years early.

Yeah, but no one caught him during those times, so he was just like living it up until two thousand and four. So in two thousand and four, he got charged with sexually molesting a six year old boy in Minnesota, but Duncan was not ready to go back to jail, so he borrowed fifteen grand for bail, and he skipped town. The fact that a judge offered this fucking lunatic bail, I don't understand it.

I just don't understand it, Like it's really what the fuck?

Like, he spent fourteen years in prison, he did it again, Why does he get bail?

I don't understand it. Yeah, So he wrote a.

Lot of stuff on his web page about like society's persecution of sex offenders and that it's not fair the way he was treated, and he could have fought the case and risked prison, but he just didn't want to, so he went on the round to live out his ultimate fantasy. And his final blog entry, I just can't believe these killers have blogs, So he wrote them right before the murders, and in quotes, he writes, I am scared, alone and confused, and my reaction is to strike out

But he invoked his Fifth Amendment rights and did not talk.

They did find a lot of evidence in the car, shotgun, laptop, GPS device, empty package, was ZIP ties that were used, and then a microdrive that contained images of the children while in captivity. They can't find the murder weapon or anything that will lead to the missing boy, and they ran out of options.

So they had to.

Turn to Shasta, and I think they were like trying to spare her from like reliving all this, but they had to interview her to get information. And the show I was watching use the word haunting, and they said what Shasta said was just so fucking haunting, and I got excited that they used our word, but sad that

With a shotguh, my god.

He took the two kids and laid them in the backyard because he didn't want them to see what he was going to do to their family, because he wanted to take them calm, and so it wasn't like to spare them the violence. He basically was like, if they saw me murder their family, they wouldn't have just gone with me. And so he left them in the yard tied up while he did that, and then he drove ninety five miles away to Saint Regis, Montana, and once

Jesus.

He said he spared Shasta's life because he taught her how to.

Love whatever you say, buddy. Yeah.

And then one of the talking head authors crime people in this special said that she believes he had no intention into keeping her alive and he just fucked up with the diner and she's lucky to be alive, and he would have never kept her alive.

So I don't thank god that waitress. Thank God for that waitress.

Yeah. They did find the remains of Dylan where Shasta said the murder took place. They confront Duncan with all the evidence, and he finally confesses he left Minnesota to not go back to jail and was just driving looking for targets and he like by chance saw their house and saw Shasta and Dylan playing in the house around the house and was like, that's that's my person. Spent the next day and a half checking out the house.

Yeah, like why would you go back to It's back in Courtelaine, like that's like begging to be caught.

Yeah, it's really confusing why he did it. And then he just pled guilty to three counts of kidnapping and three counts of murder and received six life sentences and so yeah, it's good he pled guilty because Shasta didn't have to take the stand, and I think everyone was trying to protect her. So December third, two thousand and seven, he pleads guilty on ten federal charges and he had nothing to say, Like his quote is, I have nothing

Those are for like previous crimes that he had not been like tried for, but he probably confessed to.

Yeah, So in nineteen ninety seven there was a kidnapping and murder of Anthony Martinez of Beaumont, California, and he confessed to it. And then in nineteen ninety six he murdered two girls in Seattle, Washington that he's confessed to but wasn't like convicted of.

It's weird. He's really creepy, looking too, very creepy.

He looks like what you would think of creep looks like and like who to protect your children from.

And then this is just like a little fact.

But the jurors were actually offered counseling after the case because the evidence was so fucked up. Fuck really, Yeah, and there was video evidence of stuff, like he videotaped the oh my stuff and so they had to watch it, and so a lot of the jurors needed help with their mental stability.

It's so crazy that this happened in two thousand and five because it just feels like a nineteen seventies or eighties kidnapping or something just that he got away. There was like no evidence like cell phone stuff, you know, Like it just feels like a very old school type of horrific serial killer crime.

And then in a new school way, but like the way these crimes were connected that led authorities to connect to previous crimes was bloggers, Like bloggers found similarities between other crimes at these times, and like it is like what are cops for that? Bloggers, waitresses, like all of these random people are doing your work.

But then if you watch like the Cecil Hotel documentary, you're like, sometimes bloggers are fucking stupid and they get the wrong person and ruin their life. So like, I do think bloggers can be good, but they can be bad.

To watch that one yet, so yeah, this is just the rundown. He is dead and wishing all the best to Shasta.

It's almost not fair that he died like so early. He could have I would have liked him and Jil for like another thirty years. And she's probably god like in her twenties now, huh, poor Shasta.

All right, well, I hope she's moving on with hope and love.

This episode comes out today is May eighteenth, and this crime happened May fifteenth, two thousand and five, So that's the sixteen year anniversary of her Famili's her first three families death.

Jeez, another tough one. What am we gonna get a fun murder?

Lisa?

Well, we got one person mad about the microchips? Did you see that message?

She goes, I'm very disappointed you guys didn't cover a crime. I just needed to let you know that, oh, one person. I didn't even see that.

I was just gonna say, if you want to end this episode on a fun note, you can mention that after the episode, Sugar, you said you had never heard the name Vance in real life, and this story, Lisa, there was an older brother named Vance.

Oh wow, Okay, that is a fun ending.

Vance and I hope the Vans, I hope, yeah, I hope the boys are good.

And you know, she did get to be with her dad. But yeah, it's rough.

Yeah, like she at least has some surviving family and hopefully like she has her brothers.

It's just scary.

I mean not to ruin the movie The Strangers for everyone, but that horror movie is really scary because it was just like random. Yeah, the randomness of it is scary. Like that's some killer from Minnesota.

Yeah, can escape from court.

And drive to Idah see your kid and be like I'm going to kill you guys two days from that.

Like it is haunting, Yeah, and I think that's what they try to you know. Also highlight in the episode is that everybody that got Toano killed was a stranger. It wasn't like these were personal people he got close to. He just like stalked and hunted people.

You know.

It's really fucking scary. But let's take a quick moment and hear from our very special guests.

I am so excited for this guest it truly. I think when I found out, I jumped up and down.

Huge. Guess guys.

He is a Golden Globe and Tony Award nominee. He famously played Richie Vallens in La Bamba, one of my formative movies as a child. He's currently playing Lieutenant Gilroyo on Fox's Prodigal Son, and you, if you did your homework, sadly recognize him as Victor Paul Gaetano. Guys, check out our interview with the one and only lou Diamond Phillips.

We are so excited, and we need to tell you.

All of our friends that we told that we're interviewing you lost their fucking minds. Like people were like, our friend who's Filipino, was like, he is the King of the Philippines. And then two of our friends are like, we watched Little Bamba every single day on HBO for years. Like everyone was like, was so excited, and so are we, So we're yeah, we're pops.

So all my interviews yesterday were about the fact that Fathom was putting Lebamba back in the movie theaters.

Oh ridiculous.

So so yeah, I did a bunch of interviews yesterday with you know, writer director Louis Valdez. That man, that was That was a lovely little trip down memory lane.

I mean that's where I first knew you.

That movie came out when I was a kid, and I loved it so much, So We're so honored to talk to you. And this episode is classic of SVU. I know it was a long time ago. No worries if you forget some stuff from you know, from the shooting time of Fault.

The show runner Neil Bear, when we asked his favorite and or most haunting episodes, he said, this one.

Yeah, it's you know, it's it's pretty intense.

I mean, that's a lot for SVU, you know.

I know, one of my favorite stories about that particular episode was was I said, yes, Sight Unseen.

I didn't even read the script because I'm a fan of the show.

I've been a fan of the show, you know, since its inception. I've also known Marishka Man since the late eighties.

She did a tiny, little.

Independent film that a lot of my friends were involved with, so you know, I met her at the screening of that way back in the day.

So we kind of ran in the same circles for a long time.

So it came to me and it's like, yes, one hundred percent, I will do this whatever, I don't care.

And so you're the bad guy. I said, well, come on, I figure, you know.

And my daughter Grace was eight nine at the time, or whatever, and I remember I said, I listened, Dad's got to go, you know, to New York City next week to do this show. And she said, what show are you doing? I said, well, I'm doing STU.

She can I watch it?

I don't think so.

We didn't let her watch SVU anyway, and it was like, no, no, you can't. You can't watch this episode, Grace. Are you the bad guy? And I'm like, yeah, I'm the bad guy.

She goes, do you kill people? I said, yes, I kill people. I've seen you kill people. I said, not like this, so yeah, you.

Know, serial killer, pedophile. That's that's a good way to have on the old resume.

Seriously, man, well what I was going to say is so interesting about you. I don't know if you can speak to this, but like, you've played Richard Ramirez, You've played this terrible victor Paul Gaetano, the serial killer in this episode, but then in a lot of other stuff you play the cop, you play the good guy, And I feel like a lot of actors get pigeonholed into one or the other, and you kind of seamlessly can be like evil or the hero. Like, what do you think that is about you?

They don't care that it's because you're talented.

That's a good an.

There's plenty of talented people that always play the cop or always play the murderer, you know.

Yeah, yeah, no, it's true. I've been fortunate. I mean, you know, I literally I have to go back to theater training, you know, and not just the theater training, but the appetite that theater training gave me for roles. Where I from a very early age.

I thought I don't want to play just one thing, you know, and.

There are many many actors who are famous for doing one thing and they're very very good at it.

You know, that's what they do, that's their brand. And you know, I mean not not to mench anybody contemporary, but you know, you're John Wayne, Japlin Eastwood's.

You know, they are personalities, they're iconic, and people love them so much that they don't want to get out of that lane. For me, I always consider myself a character actor. Uh. And thank goodness being you know that that translated into being the character lead.

But it meant that I could do you know, a lot of different kinds of roles. Uh. And you know, in college, I was you.

Know, doing everything from from Mamick to Shakespeare to Moliere to improv comedy and hopefully honing talent and.

All of it, you know.

So so that's why when you look at my, you know, body of work.

You just go what or Western comedy drama and you.

Knowsles you know that takes a very special kind of talent. Uh And so you know, I just enjoyed the genre of employment more than anything else. Uh So yeah, But I mean it's because I love characters. I love creating characters, and I and I you know, apply a few different rules,

To the audience.

So you know, when you take a job like this, it is your job to scare the shit out of people.

You have to be brutal.

And what's interesting, because you mentioned this, I literally look at Gatano as the amused Boosch to Richard Ramirez, although I didn't know it at the time.

Oh interesting.

And what was I think really informative for me and that I carried from this particular experience was was Paul mccrane's direction. And it's like, make this guy boring, killing people and draining a child's blood and all of that is so mundane to you. And in that normalcy, in that apparent I don't know, homogenization of a killer mind, you know, that's what's frightening. And that the little video clip that we did, you know, where he's describing how

And all this other stuff, you know, he said, you know, this is just so boring.

You know, he's just talking about it like he's talking about the weather, you know, and it's.

Just like wow.

And that's chilling more than growling and more than streaming and yelling. It's that that the fact that that that mind is already there that they don't have to flip the switch.

This is where they live.

And were you able to find empathy and understanding with that character to play him or that's not necessary because you said you have to connect with them, like do you have to trick yourself into liking him?

Or you can hate him and play him.

I can hate him. I can absolutely hate him. I mean, you know, being being the.

Father of four daughters somebody like that. I'm sorry, I have very little sympathy. Uh you know, I mean because because they ceased to become human, you know.

Uh, And there wasn't a big backstory.

Having said that, though, in doing the research for Richard Ramirez, I go, how else could he have turned out?

How else could he have turned out? The book by Philip Cakudo, The.

Nightstalker is brilliant and so you know, illuminative of you know, how he was built from a very very early age and that includes the possibility of chemical alteration because both his parents worked in a boot factory where they were dealing with toxic materials day in.

And day out for hours at a time.

So you know, that's that's one that he he suffered a head injury at a very early age, and then all the sociological influences on him, and you know from an uncle who came back in Vietnam and it was

You know, did you film at the bus station? How was it filming with so many people? And were those extras or were they really people? At the bus station?

It was just so crowded.

It's like a huge I mean, you're weaving through a million crowds and like it's really.

Yeah, no, it's it's it's really really cool.

And you know, I mean, and this is the advantage of being on a hit show is they have a budget, you know, so they you know, uh, And at the time I had I hadn't worked in New York since I've done you know, The King and I but I have this love of New York and and and filming in.

New York, like what I'm going through right now on Fludigal Sonny. You just look at and yeah, you know, this is this is it.

And here we are in this bus station and they can close off a certain area and we had a number a number of background artists, but within those background artists, we had quite a few stunt performers, so that you could run over somebody or knocking anybody and if you did, it wasn't a big deal because they're expecting it.

Right.

Oh, I didn't even think about that, because yeah, there's a lot of places where when you run, you're knocking people out of the way.

Maloney's like out of the way to all these civilians.

I didn't realize that those would be stunt people because they've got a like.

Yeah, they have to be because next next thing, you know, the you know, the background artists bump.

You know, I got paid a little bit more.

So those are you know, those are those are definitely part of the film crew.

But beyond that, they can't shut down the entire area, and so you know, it's it's.

Always a little fun to, uh, you know, watch a big crowd scene in someplace like Times Square because you can look in the background and say, okay, civilians, civilians, civilian because they're staring at the.

Camera watching things go on.

Right, So, so yes, there were a number of background artists and stunt performers.

But you know in the deep background, those are those.

Are real people going about their business and going, oh, you're shooting again.

Since you have like a theater background and you've been working for so long and a fan of SVW, I was wondering if any of your friends have been on episodes or there's any episodes that stick out to you that you've seen and that you really like.

Wow, because everybody's son SVU.

Right, No, that's just it. I mean you go down the list of people and it's just it's just crazy, wacky good.

Charlne Woodard, who you know, in the first season of Prodigal Son, played Malcolm's therapist.

Speaking of theater and the and the inner of that.

You know, she was ended up getting killed, But I had a lovely sort of recurring role as a sort of a street social worker, you know.

And Charlene and I had done a play together ages and Ages ago at the La Joy.

Yeah, Charlene Woodard, we had done The Good Person of Sasuan in a new translation by Tony Kushner, and we almost got to New York did it?

Oh my god, that's Sister Peg.

We literally do a segment every single week on our podcast where we say what would Sister Peg do?

And we mentioned like a.

Charity or like an organization because her character is so iconic on the show.

Exactly, and she's amazing, she is that she is just this beautiful light, a wonderful human being.

Can I we asked you a question a little bit more asked for you questions. So you got to work with these little kids, but like you're this terrifying character, so like in between takes or you like goofing around with these kids being like I'm not a bad guy, or are you like so that they.

No, no, you know, it's it's interesting. You have to trust the person that you're working with. It has to be a dance. And so these kids could not have performed. Uh, they wouldn't even let me pick them up, you know,

And how was it stabbing Marishka in the.

Well?

The other the other amazing detail to to the filming, the behind the scenes stuff, as you know, if you look at it closely, I.

Mean, Risk is pregnant.

She's shooting this and she's yeah, so they're they're you know, they're they're shooting her really tight and from behind and you know, the very very few profiles man, because they can't reveal that she's actually pregnant.

And so for me, I'm like, oh, that one more twist here. I got to be so careful because.

She's you know, so it's like, uh, it was very funny and she was such a sweetheart man, so game, so you know, just and then you know, I got to hold a gun to to Maloney's head.

You know, you really have the dream role.

I mean, you got to assault both of the main characters and then.

Get shot in the head myself. So it's like a dream come true. So h and then you know, you just do the whole drill.

But once again, it's it's the uh, the trust, you know, and and Musky and Maloney could not do.

Those roles without without being you know, incredibly game for for right that comes along.

And so I mean I'm literally pressing this gun into Chris's you know, temple and say no.

Man, go ahead, good good, good dimple in here.

You know, it's like, okay, you know, if you're cool with it, you know, I'll bring it.

I don't have an SV related, but I was just going to ask about what you're writing and working on now.

Ah yay, thank you.

Uh And and you know, I mean speaking of well, not speaking of but you know, the pandemic actually having a silver lining.

I had been working on a novel for ten years. When my wife and I first got together.

She was reading a lot of my writing, you know, and I've written screenplays and plays and that sort of thing. And she is an amazing artist, and she showed me these drawings that were supposed to be for a graphic novel that were inspired from Hans Christian Anderson's The Tinderbox Uh. And so I looked at these and, oh my god, this is like this post apocalyptic Kurosawa infused fairytale a little like Star Wars, and I thought this would.

Make a great movie. Let's do this.

And she loved the idea too, so I wrote the screenplay. When we read the screenplay, we realized that nobody was going to give us millions and millions of dollars to make this movie. So talk to my manager about it. He loved the idea, he says, well, write the novel, you.

Know, but my day job kept getting in the way, and so it took about.

Ten years and then it stole like the November before the pandemic hit. The plug got pulled on Prodigal Son in March, and so I was able to do the final edits in the agent's notes and publisher's notes and you know, editor's.

Notes while I was sitting at home, which was great.

And The Tinderbox Soldier of Indira just got released last last November, and it has thirty illustrations from my wife, Yvonne, which are sort of amazing. But it's funny. As I was writing the novels, she was like, I don't draw sci fi. Why, you know, a movie when she's said in a space she was cool with it, but as a novel she's like, I don't.

Draw site, I don't space ship, I don't draw you know.

But she got out of her comfort zone and she she really Uh, the illustrations are beautiful because they're they're sort of graphic novel meets German woodcut, which is her background, uh meets you know, a retro steampunk sci fi, you know, and so they're really really cool.

Holy shit.

Lou Diamond Phillips a multifaceted man. I mean, I can't believe it. Yeah, actor writer sing Whols is adopted by different races.

I know, I don't know if we we didn't even talk about this with him, but he's been officially accepted into like an indigenous tribe's he's been officially recognized by like the Latino community, like he is literally he's Filipino.

But he's a man of all of all people. Everyone wants him in their group. Yeah, the king and I mean he's he's attractive, he's writing books. It seems you know, he seems like an attentive father. Yeah, he's awesome. But let's jump into our post mortem. What did we learn from this horrible episode?

And I learned a lesson from him? You know.

What I learned from him is like, like you take every job type of thing you like, expand your horizons, you play different types of characters and skills, and like, I just enjoyed the way he talked about his career in life and how you have to just like go along for the ride and then you can last thirty forty years having a good time.

And I, you know, I enjoy hearing inspirational stories.

Like that because sometimes you audition for things for years and you just don't get stuff.

So it's like nice to hear someone be like, yeah, you just do stuff right.

And if you don't do that, you go direct to play or you go act there, or you go on the road, I don't know where. You get adopted by the Cherokees, like it's wild. But I also what I learned from the episode is like you gotta go to therapy, stable or go to therapy.

How many more times can you talk about this.

Yeah, you can't be in a relationship, a close work relationship and a romantic relationship, any kind of relationship with the kind of anger and weird crap that he carries around with him. You got to go to therapy. And you know what, Huang is busy. Huang cannot be your therapist. He is on FBI profiler and psychiatrys, psychologist whatever.

Too busy.

So if you're helping the police in an undercover investigation, play it cool.

I will never forgive that Western Union man. I think he's responsible for that child's death. Keep your eyes peeled, like that waitress saved Shasta Grony's life.

Like, keep your eyes peeled. If you see amber alerts, look.

At them and like because like, honestly, that woman, her egle eye is like the reason that girl is alive and the reason that guy was arrested.

Yeah.

Also, if you are in charge of the criminal justice system, let's not let people skip down on Bay. Like, I don't know if someone's just like a full on killer, like, keep them in jail. I don't understand. Yeah, I just don't understand the veil system when it comes to white men who kill.

But oh yeah, because the real life man was white.

Right. Yeah, I learned if an actress is pregnant, you can just zoom it on their face and not show their body ever in an episode.

Yeah.

I mean most people that Karen and I meet on our zooms have no idea Kara is about to pop.

Yeah, just keep it tight, shoulders up, baby. Yeah, it's just also cool.

It's also like if you watch TV and you're like, oh no, why is that actor not there anymore? It's like it was a contract issue or they had a baby. You know, Like it is wild that there's just things outside of the story that push the story.

Yeah, it's kind of cool.

If you're in a standoff, I don't also like give up, a sharp.

Shooter will shoot you, you know what I mean?

Like these people holding people hostage and the thing I know they're not doing well mentally, but like.

You're gonna get shot.

Yeah, you're not surviving holding two police officers hostage, you know what I mean? Like, right, I just don't understand. Stop taking people hostage. That's my tip of the day. It's not worth it. Why do you want to go to jail? Stop holding people hostage?

Don't do it. That's that's a lot of lessons. That's pretty good lot of lessons, a lot of lessons for today.

Now let's jump into our what would Sister Peg do segment? This is where you guys know, where we kind of direct you towards an organization, a resource, something to kind of give you more info on one of the topics we covered today. I mean, we honestly were just the whole time that Lisa was doing telling us about this true crime, thinking about poor Shasta and like rebuilding your life after so much tragedy and trauma. So we today are gonna shout out the National Center for Victims of Crime,

Kara, you know, I am very passionate about this, learning all this through the podcast. I am like, we need to help people after they've.

Gone through traumatic things.

They're not going to act normal when abnormal things happen to them. And we have to stop judging people that are doing destructive things with their life. Because they are they could be healing from a horrific event in their lives. So I'm just really grateful for this pot. You know, I'm learning to so I'm happy about that. And next week we're going to be watching glasgow Man's Wrath. We've heard your requests and we are fulfilling them. It's season sixteen,

Somebody also just requested this episode yesterday and it's like we're on it.

Yeah, where we listen. We do what we what you do, We do what you tell us. See you guys next week. Bye bye. That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email at That's Messed Up Pod at gmail dot com.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Klank and at glitter Cheese.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to SBU super fan and our incredible producer, Hannah Kyle Kragon.

And to our sound engineer and personal hero, Analie Snilson.

And to Henry Koperski for our theme song, to.

Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thanks to our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kogariff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

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