Execution w/ BD Wong

Of the law and order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies these episodes are based on.

These are our stories, done done.

Hello, Hi, welcome to That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast.

I'm Kara Klank, I'm Liza Traeger, and every.

Week we talk about an episode of SVU, we talk about the crime it's based on, and then we have a special guest from the episode.

And today is no exception. It's going to be hot.

So just to be transparent, we are recording this episode a little bit ahead of time because by the time you hear this episode, I will have given birth to a human being and I have to make sure that it can, you know, eat and sleep. And I'm just a little busy, So we're just recording this one intro a little bit ahead of time.

How do you feel days before you'll have another baby? What are you doing?

I mean, I'm just kind of trying to get little projects done around the house. Like I'm just trying to get things like we're basically said, I mean, we have all the stuff we need because we just had another kid two years ago, So you know, it's just kind of like a sit and wait situation.

But I am ready to be done. And I'd love to be able to just turn over in my sleep without help or pain. You know, it would be fun.

Yeah, that's a that's a minimal wish, you know, just to not have an alien I don't have.

Yeah, I don't have big dreams. Are you nervous? Yeah, I mean I'm sort of.

Nervous to see how it's different from before, because it's like going to be a little bit of a different process.

They're not doing exactly the same thing.

So yeah, I mean, and like last time, I did have some complications, like my epidor did wear off and I felt a lot more than I was supposed to feel. So I'm hoping that now, going in with that knowledge of how my body reacts to an epidural, that I can that I can avoid that happening.

They are so stingy with drugs.

My friend, unfortunately, was just in the hospital with some health problems, and they are stingy. They're so scared of opioid addiction, and it's like, just give her more drugs.

She's in pain. It's like you have to convince. It's like, my I just gave birth. Give me the drugs. What the fuck? I don't know how addictive an epidural is, but.

You know, can you imagine, like you isn't it a giant needles shot? You can't spine? Basically, how did Jared? Is he ready to tell you.

What to do? I think he's ready.

I think he was a little bit traumatized by the first birth, so I think now he's ready for the second one because he knows what he's getting into this time. But we'll see. But he was traumatized he was the first time. I'm more I'm excited to.

Kind of see how Rosie reacts to the new the new roommate. She's gonna beat the shit out of this baby.

Yeah.

You know.

We have a good friend who has two daughters and they're Rosie's like best friends. And the youngest one, Fiona, is so sweet and Rosie's obsessed with her and talks about her all the time. But she thinks that a cool way to express her love for Fiona is to push her, and she pushes her all the time, and she like smiles while she does it, like a full serial killer, like she's just like I love Feo.

And like just pushes her over.

Like so, I don't know what's going to happen with this new baby, but we gotta be on we gotta be on alert.

But you're giving like Rosie a present like it's from the baby. Yes, yes, I gotta go buy that tomorrow. Actually, what are you going to get her?

I don't know. I'm going to go to like a toy store.

I'm going to go to this toy store that they that those kids all love and see what I see, what pops out.

See what speaks to you? What a little baby inside? And you get her sister. What are the things that you were most shocked by the first time you gave birth that you'll be chill about now, Oh my.

Gosh, I don't know. I wasn't that like shocked by anything. I just had some There were just like a couple of little complications, like nothing serious, and I'm just like hoping none of that like will happen again.

But were you still bossy or did you listen to the doctor.

No, no, I listened to the doctor.

But I boss Jared. I bost Jared around them. Well you gotta yeah, he's there to serve.

Like somebody like I.

Apparently, Jared said, I was making so many jokes and like and that, like not during the push, like afterwards when they were like fixing me up, and Jared said that at one point one of the doctors was like, oh, it's hot in here, and I go, Jared'll fan you, like I was just offering Jared's like because he was fanning me. I was like offering him like my assistant to fan people, which is, you know, emasculating, and I probably shouldn't have done.

But it's my day. I'm allowed to do whatever I want.

Yeah.

No, once you give birth, I think you can do whatever you want. I think it's shocking. It's honestly shocking as a whole society that dudes haven't been like, oh damn, that sucks.

Let's be nicer to these ladies and give them daycare at work.

Like I just I really, but I think it's because they're jealous, because they know that they're worthless in the grand scheme of life. But it is so crazy when people are I know someone whose uncle has not changed any of his two children's diapers not well.

Yeah, Jared was just talking last night to our friends' parents being like my parents. He was like my dad never did anything to help with the kids, Like he barely changed a diaper. He was like, I work, you stay at home. I mean, you know, they were it was a different dynamic for them. But like, still, I just don't.

Get how that is even a thing that cris Like that is proof enough that the patriarch is inherently evil. That you see people pushing babies out of their body and then feeding them and you're like, why don't we hit these women, Like I just don't understand, Like let's not pay them and let's treat them like shit, and then you guys need to like sweep Also, it's just it's just wild. Yeah, but yeah, instead of being like

Just to really quickly change the subject, I'm not I think you saw this in our inbox, but we've got a very very interesting.

Detailed, amazing message. You know.

We actually both responded at the same time, which is one of my favorite things is when we're both on the Instagram and responding at the same time.

Yeah.

Yeah, A former Felon wrote to us probably like four or five paragraphs with information on where white Jews would land in, which gang we would land in in prison.

Yes, if you'll remember a couple episodes back.

We were talking about how we were nervous that we wouldn't be able to we wouldn't be able to fall in with the Aryan nation.

So like, who what you know?

Where did Jewish women or Jewish people go in prison gangs? And he gave us a very very interesting.

Take on it.

Let me see, he said, generally the groups would accept Jewish people so long as they pass as white. The more ethnic you look, the more you'd have to join the others, which is essentially anyone non white black Latino. And my adventures through the system, this person usually rolls with blacks as brothers and others, as we're usually outnumbered by the whites Latinos, at least here in southern California. I love this guy. He's like giving us the full fucking breakdown.

It's so great.

And he said he did know two self hating Jews who went full fledged neo Nazi and got the eight eight tattoos, like what we were talking about in that episode that was from fault that the two older brothers were in jail and the one guy had the eight eight on his hand because he was like, I got to fit in somewhere right.

Now.

I have to mention that the Whites or Woods as they go by, aren't inherently racist. So the whole Arian brotherhood thing is kind of overblown, as most of the Woods only join because it's prison and it's racially divided, and like, you basically have to do what you have to do. And he said, so you guys can easily roll with the Woods if you wanted to, but with Liza's Rusky roots, it could pose issues as some of the Woods, especially older ones, do feel some way about

I would rather be with the brothers and others because that sounds more fun.

Yeah, definitely, definitely. Anyway, thank you to Johnny R. For writing into us. We really appreciate you taking the time to educate us on the whole system and how we would be you know who we would fit in with on the inside. Now, before I forget, we have two quick plugs before we get started. We are doing a live zoom show. It's finally happening. We're going to do it in June. We're still locking down dates and details,

So let's get going.

All right, And now we're going to hop on into Execution, which is season three, episode fifteen.

This episode is different from.

Yeah, I would say I will be transparent upfront with our listeners.

I don't like these types of episodes one of my least favorites. I hate it so much.

Anytime they're just like doing long interviews to dig up something later or evidence.

I hate it.

She's thinking, like like the Brian Denahey episode. Like the episodes where it's just like someone's about to die or get executed and we have this amount of time to find out the information, like when there's like a countdown.

Not for Lisa. I like it when they mix it up a little bit.

Like someone was asking us recently, like, what do you think about that episode that they just did on the current season where there were three different cases running simultaneously.

I kind of think that's cool.

I don't want to see that every week, But I like it a little bit, you know, like to mix it up.

I hate it.

I will even in a hotel on USA, I might skip JK new I would watch it.

All right, Well, let me take you through this episode and hopefully my delightful retelling will change your mind. So we open on a convict in a cell being questioned by doctor George Wang. This is a loong, heavy episode and we love it. A Chiron tells us that it's two hours to execution, so like we said, a sort of countdown episode.

I didn't know the word chiron, you know.

I said that in front of our friend Laura the other day and she was like, oh, what is that an industry term? Yeah, it's just basically when there's words on the screen.

Cool. Yeah.

This guy who's in jail is a serial killer named Matthew Brotus, who is being played by an actor named Nick Chinlund. Who it is, I guess commonly known screen tested for the role of Elliott's tabler.

Well, and he's also in one of my top favorite movies of all time, con Air.

It's literally in my notes. Oh wow.

Literally the next thing I was gonna say is he's also in con Air, which I've never seen.

But Lisa Love, I can't believe you haven't.

Sign We'll do it on the projector dude, it is. It is so perfect, star studded, violent and funny.

It's awesome. It's funny.

Okay, Dave Chappelle's in it. What John Malkovich, we got.

A look like it. I didn't know any of this. Yeah, it's so good. Okay, okay, okay, I'm in. I'm in. So this guy is like super creepy.

He's like staring straight ahead like peace eye contact with okay again. Lisa A Stan of Richard Ramirez also here to tell you that this creepy fucking guy is hot.

He is.

I mean, I'm sure the actor. The actor is like a handsome man, but he's very creepy here, like just looking straight ahead and like talking. It's very silence of the Lambs, like this is this whole interview is very Clarice Starling interviewing Hannibal Lecter in my opinion, like Huang asks about his first time, and the guy just like he's like, what about your first time? And Huang's like, like,

Do you know Silence of the Lambs really kind of creepy?

How much I know Silence of the Lambs? It is actually a weird thing about me.

Yeah, you know so much about it. But also these people would be great fortune tellers if they didn't want to be murderers.

I know.

Well, I mean it's exactly, it's like a lot of I think reading, like an eye twitch, reading like facial expressions and stuff like that that helps you.

Get in there.

I don't really buy this guy as as he's not like as erudite and like seemingly like intelligent as a Hannibal Elector.

But you know this is what he's doing.

He's he's acts like he's the smartest guy in the room, which I think a lot of serial killers do do.

And he's like, you just said do do do do? Yeah.

He tells Sabler like, you're exactly like me, and then he tells Huang like you're not liked.

And then Huang goes in on this sky. He's like, your first time was terrible. You couldn't get it up.

You were like inept like, and he's really going after the guy and this guy like this is really creepy. This guy is referring to his victims as thing like I had this one thing once and it was so sweet. Like he's calling them it and thing like it's disgusting, and he describes raping and killing one of his victims and Huang can kind of sense this guy's about to explode, and he's like, Elliott, get up from the table. And then this guy just like Smasheshang's head against the wall.

Twang like slides.

Down unconscious, and we end on him and Stabler like in a full like Greco Roman wrestling hold, and that's how we leave the cold open.

I don't know how you can't like this episode.

I mean, this is pretty fucking I do like this is very real Housewives. I do like when they show us the wild that's about to happen, and then they go back three weeks prior, right, So now I like seeing Huang doing some physical movements, like I like some what is it stunts?

I like seeing him in a stunt.

Yeah, yeah, like Huang in on the action is not something we see a lot of. So now at the top of act one, we're three days before the execution, and so we've gone back in time and at the precinct, Elliott is approached by Alan and Hannah Cooper. These are parents of a girl named Debbie who was murdered eleven years ago. Her killer was never caught, and Elliot's like, of course, I remember the case. This girl was abducted on her way home from school and his partner, Dave Rossetti, worked the case.

And the Coopers are like, yeah, we heard he died. We're sorry.

And then that's why the Coopers are coming to Elliott, because the partner is no longer alive, and they're like, we know who killed our little girl. It's Matthew Brotis the psycho who's about to be executed in three days, and they basically explained They're like, we had come to terms with like never knowing who killed our daughter, but then we saw his press conference. I'm sorry, I didn't

I mean, like, I just was confused about this.

There's a couple wild holes in this episode that I will discuss. One is, a serial killer gets a press conference where he said that he wants to sell tickets to his execution to raise money for his daughter's education, but he doesn't have any kids. And then the school he mentions is Our Lady of Light, which is the school that their daughter.

Debbie went to.

So he's like trolling them via this press conference. Elliott like goes to Kragan and is like, this matches.

This all matches. Craigan's like, why didn't the computer match it?

Like, and He's like it was pre ViCAP, which they talk about ViCAP a lot on the show. If you haven't If you don't know, it's Violent Criminal Apprehension Program, which is like a national database of crimes and.

Criminals used by the FBI.

To like, you know, match signature emos and stuff like that. So this guy we should mention Brotus is in jail in New Jersey. That's where he's about to be executed. So now there's like a whole NJ New York like thing where. And you know how it is with New York and New Jersey. I feel like there's always a little bit of a rivalry.

Sure, but New Jersey knows their worst, yes, like you can't. How can they not? They're going to be in a rivalry with New York.

Like your name better be Tokyo or London, New Jersey.

Right, So okay, So Craigan says, New Jersey's not gonna let us near this hump. I thought hump was like a name for a criminal. I extensively googled the word hump last night. You know, I got some interesting thing results because I remember in Silence of the Lambs, which I'm going to bring up again, I remember them talking about Buffalo Bill and going, oh, he skins his humps, like that was a thing they said.

But I think that what they're actually saying is like he skins women that.

He sexually assaults or whatever, which is a gross way to refer to it. But it also hump means like an idiot or something, so I think that's Craigan says the word hump all the time.

Have you heard it before? No, he does.

He's like, I don't know this hump like, so I think he's talking about like an idiot. I thought it had more legal if you are like a legal person and there's like a legal definition behind hump.

Please Instagram. It's slang. I don't know if it's in the law books.

No, no, no, but you know, like the way the way that you say purp or like whatever.

You know.

I think I feel like there is some kind of thing. So Craigan is like nude or he's not gonna let us near him, and he probably wondn't.

Even talk to us.

This serial killer, and Huang's like, a ah, this guy is a different kind of serial killer like most. I thought this was interesting and I'm sure that there's a lot of research that goes into this. They're like most serial killers tend to kill their victims immediately and then take their.

Time with the bodies.

Like I think that's what Bundy did. That's what a lot of guys did. Brotus is different, like he kept them around for a long time to torture them, like he needs an audience he likes sort of that he likes the reactions, so they think Wong thinks he actually would be.

Likely to talk, and they're all really like skeptical of Wang in this episode. Yeah, it's annoy and they're just like, I don't know about you, and it's like he's in the FBI and smart, can you just listen to him?

This is definitely an arc, the beginning of the Huang arc where they're trying where he has to like prove himself to the NYPD, which is crazy because he's obviously very qualified and good at his job and in the FBI. Yeah, well you'll well, we'll get to it later. But there's another comment about the FBI that I was confused about.

He might be able to get Do we not see Benson at all? We do later.

I was like, She's like she must have had like shit to do. She's in this episode for five minutes. So Huang says, because he's such a rare kind of killer, maybe I can get a field interview and like and even though like, even though that FBI can't like force New Jersey to cooperate, He's like, maybe like the brass can grease the wheel and I can get in there

Oh selfish, yes, no, I get it. Make this murder about you. So Craigan's like, all right, you've got seventy two hours now. Munch brings the evidence, a bunch of evidence from Debbie's case to the extremely hot CSU tech Bert Trevor played by Daniel Sunjada who also plays super hot Navy guy in Sex and the City and James Holt in Devilware's Prada.

Yeah, two huge roles.

We followed his career. I've followed it pretty closely. He's always on the USA network. He's extremely hot.

Yes, he was on a USA Yeah, like a bunch of sea. We put him on Instagram.

We do grids and everyone votes on stuff, and we put him on the hotty List.

Not one answer for him.

I think just because he's not as well known, people are picking their faves, they're picking their little guys of things.

I was just shocked. He's really hot.

Well, he's been in I think I counted fifteen episodes of S Few.

He was in seasons like three, four, and five.

My favorites when he asked there's like a broken bottle and he has to put it back together to try to find a fingerprint.

That's my favorite moment of.

His very talented, very talented, tech, hot, hot hot ass man. So basically, Hi, They're like, they give this guy the evidence and they're like, find us something. We got to tie something to brotus or like this case is going to be open forever. Now we're at Lady of Light trying to track down teachers who knew Debbie. There was only a couple of teachers that gave a shit about Debbie,

But I always think tattoos first.

Oh, okay, see different, I guess different industries have apprentices.

So he's a plumber's apprentice.

And they basically there was a plumbing job of a boiler replacement going on at the school at the time of Debbie's murder.

So they go to this plumbing place. It sort of doesn't really go anywhere.

They go to this guy, this plumbing company. This guy has meticulous records. I'm very horny for how organized he is. He's like he's got like a full ledger of every guy that's worked for him, all the apprentices, and he's like, you.

Think I had this psycho working for me. I didn't. Whatever.

So then as they leave this plumbing place, it's Munch and Stable or they have this weird exchange where Munch is like good news from the Feds, more like bend over, we're taking over your case. And Stablers like John Times have changed. They're not the lying bastards they used to be. And I'm like, I need to read a book about the FBI or something. I didn't know the FBI used to be a bunch of lying bastards and then got better.

Well, this is also like I think black people have hated the FBI for a long time, right, I think they've killed some leaders. I think they they did some murders. Yeah, for sure, they did some stage murderers. So like, I know that like much should definitely not trust them. That's in line with.

His right, that's true.

But it's just funny that Stabler's like they're better, the FBI is cool now.

And the cops are just jealous. They want who joins the force that doesn't want to be in the FBI.

There's an amazing South.

Park episode a few seasons ago where like the governments try to trap these like white and cells, but they trick them into being like, we need you to save this mission, and every guy's like, of course, the government needs my help. Like, so they're able to trap all these guys because they all believe that.

They could be CIA masters, so that they're like, yeah, the star of their own action thriller. So now we're at a hot dog stand with Wong, no time for lunch. They're doing indirect personality assessments, which they refer to as IPAs with Brotus's cellmates.

So Brotos has two former cell mates.

One is named Robert Rule, he's in jail for life for rape and manslaughter, and then Leroy Russell is on death row for killing a kid in a convenience to a robbery. He has converted to Islam. Now he's a model no, but refuses to talk to the FEDS. So the whole point of these IPAs our background, get his likes, get his dislikes, ways to relate to him. And of course Stabler thinks he knows everything. He's like, I've dealt with serial killers, and Huong keeps being like, this guy

He was.

He's also famous because he kept lying. He kept confessing to crimes he didn't do, right. So he yeah, so, which I find silly. It's like faking credits. I don't know. So they just fucked with a lot of investigations because they confessed to all these crimes they didn't commit, right. But this is wild to think about, and we'll get into it with the real crime. But it is wild to think about how many serial killers are just out and about and you don't know how long they're planning each kill.

Like it. It is creepy. Yeah, it's creepy to think, no, for sure, And.

That's like the kind of guy this guy is. So he's like, yeah, it takes years for killers like this to relax their guard, and of course they get more pliable the closer you get to their execution date. But you also have to remember that, like this is a game and Brotus is holding all the cards is basically what Huong tells him. So now we're talking to Robert Rule, one of the first excelmates, and this is Turtle from Sex and the City. This is the guy that was the Turtle that Samantha gave.

A makeover to, who loved mushrooms. Yeah, oh yeah, who liked mushrooms. He's like, these are Porkuccini's.

I don't know that porcini pcheese and he had bad breath, and like she.

Turned him around. She has she bought him helmet lang.

Yeah, so he wants a deal and Huong's like, no deal, I'm not going to like make you a deal, and so they walk out of the interviews. Stabler's pissed and Huang's like, Rule doesn't have shit, Like Brotoses wouldn't have trusted a guy like this.

He would have thought this guy was beneath him.

He never would have opened up to him. And Stable's like, you don't get up from the table till you have seen everybody's hand. And then Huong's like, just FYI, the FBI is running these interviews and I'm not offering any deals, and he kind of like puts Stabler in his place.

Which I like to see. You love to see it.

So now we're in Cabot's office and Stabler is like, come on, help me out. Let's do something like file a temporary stay. And she's like, we need evidence to link bro Us to this victim. I can't just like stop an execution. New Jersey's not going to let it happen. She's like, let me go to New Jersey and ask an old friend for a favor. So we're an hour in New Jersey and we meet executive Ada Alan Messinger. Messenger Messinger played by Ty Burrell aka Phil Dunfie from

Yes, she's also in New York. Yeah, she's better than you already.

Yeah. I was like, you watch your goddamn Mouthfield Dumpy. Yeah.

When people are like people in New York think they're better than everyone, I go, yeah.

Have you been there? Of course they are.

He also references Henry ly Lucas and Bundy and was like, these guys will say anything to stay their executions. And he's like, no one gets access periods. He's like shutting Cabot down. Back at the lab, there was not enough blood. The fibers are consistent with a Plumber uniform, the tape is consistent with the other victims.

Nothing is a smoking gun.

They could maybe compare the fibers to New Jersey, but those are going to be hard to get. So basically, the lab has given us like a smidge of hope.

But not not anything huge.

Now in Cabot's office, Stabler is asking Cabot he's basically trying to go around Huang to offer a deal to Rule, the guy who is in jail and wanted the deal, and she's like, I'm not doing that. I'm like, I can't give a deal to this guy who's got life, basically, and Elliott is pushing it really hard. He's just like, this guy has twelve victims, he kept them all alive, blah blah blah, and he basically is playing two Cabot's

This is your chance to like redo it basically.

Okay, So now it's two days before the execution, Cabot has come through and Elliott has figured out a way to talk to Rule without Huang there.

Stabler is offering a change of venue.

That he can move to different prison, to the Dan Barry Federal Prison, which you assume is nicer than wrikers.

I guess.

Rule gives Elliott the sob story about his daughter. He's like, I just want you to call her and find out how she's doing. I'm not going to talk unless you call my daughter. Elliott uses his cell phone, calls this number that this criminal has given him and says, hi, I'm calling on behalf of Robert Rule. When the woman picks up the phone and then immediately Robert Rule starts screaming I miss you so much, and then she hangs

He's a liar, he's a criminal, and Elliot's a fucking idiot. Like what the fuck, bro, You're just you go against everyone. You're just so selfish and now you've re traumatized a victim.

Yeah, so he gets in trouble for that. He has to apologize.

Craigan is like lecturing him for being a dumb ass, and he's like, I already called and apologized, and Craigan's like, all smooth things over, which seems like Craigan's whole life is smoothing over things that Elliott Stabler has done incorrectly.

Killed against Stabler being an idiot here going this will He's like, I don't mean to open up your wounds and the dad's like, yeah, when your kid gets murdered. Your wounds don't just heal? Yeah, fucking numb nunt right. I'm anti Stabler. I am loving this episode though your retelling is good.

He says to the father of this kid who was killed by Leroy Russell, I know you spoke out at his sentencing opposing the death penalty, so I feel like you could find it in your heart to speak to him to try to help us get closure for another family. And the guy seems a little bit pissed, but eventually he does do it.

He shows the dad.

A picture of Debbie and that kind of you know, softens him up. So now they're at Dana Mora another big prison. Escape from Dana Morra was like the big movie that there is actually an SVU based on where that woman helped you guys get escape from that prison. Uh, it's death row at Dana Mora and Leroy is brought in and the dad tells him like, he's like, I owe you a debt. The killer says to him and he's like, you can never repay it. To just talk to these cops.

The killer is a big oz actor. Oh he is.

Yeah, Oh okay, you know I've got a blind spot for oz, but I'm.

Here to pick it up. Yeah, pick up all the pieces. So basically he's like, we played.

A Muslim there too, So I guess he has a real Muslim vibe. Yeah, okay, yeah, another Muslim in me. He's really type cast.

Yeah. So he shared a cell with Brotus for three years. He goes he's a killer. He would ask me questions like how I got on death row, who I killed? And my answers pissed him off because I think he couldn't like it wasn't like a like, it wasn't like a sexy enough murder for him. He wasn't getting like a boner over the details. Now, Leroy explains that Brotos took joy in killing and stalking, gutting, doing things.

To the body.

Thought he was smarter than everyone else, even when he fucked up, like he said.

He killed a blind girl close to home.

So this is like ding ding, This is like the little connection that we need. And then there's like a sad moment where the dad's like, what were my son's final moments like? And he was like, sir, you don't need the image of your boy dying with my voice in your head telling you how and that's it. So that's kind of a sad little side story. So now Elliot's talking to Cabat and Kebit's like, I mean that's great, but like this is too this is hearsay from a guy on death row. Here's the part of this. It

Turns out she was She dated Brotus for six months and regularly picked her up from that school and a couple of times gave Debbie a ride home.

How in the fucking world would the cops not have found that in the first round of investigations.

It's New Jersey.

I mean, okay, that's just how to me, Like, she's close to two teachers.

You talk to those teachers.

The teacher doesn't go, actually, I'm dating a serial killer, or like the teacher doesn't give any information.

But the teacher doesn't know that she's dating a serial killer yet well she eventually.

This is to me also a place where I would have loved to have met Vivian Parish. In this episode, they only talk about her like as an entity.

Maybe if Zoom was around.

Yeah, we could have zoomed her in a FaceTime with Vivian because she had moved to New Mexico, and like, I just feel like you would have checked all you would have checked all the bases, Like the parents would have been like, oh yeah.

A couple of times her teacher, Vivian Pears, brought her home. He misus parish like, whoever brought you?

Who?

I don't know. I'm not a fucking cop, but I just feel like this would have It's a huge hole.

So then Debbie's parents are at the precinct and they're like, what's our next move? And Cabot's kind of like, I can't prove this in court, but we are reasonably sure of his guilt and he's going to be executed. And that's when the mother brings up Otis Toole, who is the man who is believed to have killed Adam Walsh, the six year old son of John Walsh.

Who was the host of America's Most Wanted This Killer.

Otis Toole Allegedly everyone thought he killed Adam Walsh, We'll get into that later in the episode. And he died of AIDS on death roll before.

It was proven.

So they're basically saying, like his hope died the day that Otis Toole died, and we don't want our hope to die like the way that that happened to him. So that again tugs on Cabot's heart strings and reaches her. So she goes to meet with Brotus's lead counsel and who looks like the date rapist guy I've ever seen. Sorry if you're a listener, sir, but you have a very very scary face.

He puts his feet up on the table while he's talking to her. Don't like his attitude, and he's like, oh yeah, let's put Brotus on trial. Let's get we'll gain him six to twelve more months, maybe eighteen if I drown you in paperwork.

So they're basically colluding to get this stay of execution to happen just so he can live a little bit longer and she can get some closure for this family.

Now we are one day before execution. We're in this New Jersey court.

Cabot is facing off against Phil Dunfie aka Messinger. He's saying the evidence is circumstantial. She's saying, we don't even want to try, and we just want the opportunity to discover the truth. If he dies, the truth dies with him. So then afterwards they're at a bar. Dunfey slides into the booth with Alex and is basically like.

Okay, we'll let you talk to him.

Just promise me that you're not going to prosecute him even if he confesses to you, like, we just want this execution to go off, like and then you'll get the closure for your family.

And we you know whatever.

So now it's act for of this episode. We're four hours to execution. Elliot and Huang are like prepping. They're at the jail. They're about to meet Brotus. Wang is basically like, I'll be bad cop Elliot. It's gonna be kind of like the good cop. He's like, you be his friend when I stress him out, is what Hoong says.

It might work. They might run out of time.

So Brotos comes in, Stabler shakes his hand. Hoong doesn't sets it up right away. I'm not here to make friends, that's Wong. Okay, he's on America's Next not Model and he is not here to make friends. And they call him Matthew Brotus or something, and he's like, you can call me Matt. He's like extremely arrogant right off the top. He's like grinning at the idea that he.

Doesn't have kids, you know, Like he's like, I mean, like anyone would admit it. Like he's just being really gross.

And then they are they say like, why didn't you kill your girlfriend Vivian Parish?

He's not giving them a lot.

Howong brings up his insomnia and then suddenly he's like, what's in that?

What's that? What are you holding?

And Wang's got a folder and he's like, oh, it's just just another case I'm working on. I thought maybe I could get your help. Which serial killers love that? I feel like, like Ted Bundy, they went to Ted Bundy about the Green River killer, Like they go to these serial killers to try to be like, you guys are a special breed. Tell us about how you do your work so we can find this other guy, you know.

So Brotus obviously is like hungry to.

See this folder. He opens it up. He's pissed there's no crime scene photos right, He's like, what is this? And then he just sees the one photo of Debbie, which honestly looks like it was taken in nineteen fifty two. She's like, in it's like an airbrushed sailor dress photo, and I think it's almly supposed to be like early nineties.

But he crumples up the picture. He pushes the folder.

Away and he's like, you're kind of like this guy, Like you both chose big girls.

Stuff like that.

And then they're describing the crime and Brotus is like getting turned on and it's really disgusting. And then he describes like cutting open a victim is being born again, and Huang's like, it's not about religion. The womb is like the one place where a mother can never abandon.

Now we get.

Into his mom issues. Elliott brings up Brotos's mom is like, she hated you, she abandoned you multiple times, and Brotos is like, she loved me.

Like he doesn't. He doesn't like being psychoanalyzed.

He's very much on stabler side that shrinks are are losers. And then Ellie is like how many times were you with Debbie post mortem? And Brotus is like, that's obscene. It always like, is so interesting to me? What these disgusting like monsters think is too far, Like I'll do all this horrible shit, I'll torture someone for days, but like be with the body once they're dead.

Ew, It's like, I don't know.

So he says he only went back to the victims to check that they were still there, and Stabler was like, well, this guy went back to the victim to be with them and gives Brotos a wink. Sorry, it's kind of a hot wink from Stabler. I kind of wanted someone to make it into a gift. Please do that if you know how to do that.

So they stay to Brotus.

Vivian Parish said, you had a hard time getting it up, and he's like, I should have killed her before she went out west. Debbie just wanted someone to tell her ugly ass that she was pretty. Thought she was in a harlequin romance. So he says Debbie even though he means Vivian slip of the tongue and he goes, that's one of my other victims. And they're like no, none of your other victims are named Debbie or Deborah or their middle names.

They well knows all their names.

So he puts his head down on the table and is like, what time is it? And that's where we started the episode. So now we've caught up to where we started the episode. Messinger and Cabot are at the jail like just chatting when alarms go off and a lockdown is initiated, and that's kind of when we know that this man has attacked Huang and Stabler. They they keep they push Cabot and Messinger back and they keep going, go, go go, but they're making them walk backwards.

Turn them around, like let them walk forward, they should turn themselves around. They're just like shuffling backwards. It was very funny to me. Also the attack.

I don't know if you're going to say this, but he you know, because then you think that Huan and Stabler got him. But this was his plan all along, because he says, he goes, what time is it because he knows that's when the guards switch shifts, right, So it's kind of like they thought that they were winning this thing, but all along he was just waiting till five o'clock, so I can go now, which.

Is very Hannibal Lefter, Like Hannibal Lecter knew when they were switching shifts and like gets one of the guards and it's like a whole thing, you know. So they lock Messinger and Cabot in a cell, like it's basically like the audience area for watching the execution, and all

What he wants.

And so then the way the episode ends, Huong is going to be all right. Brotus is on a ventilator and the state is not allowed to execute an unhealthy man, so they just have to like let the families of the victims know that, like this is going to go on until he either recovers or he's just he could be in a coma forever.

Like, and I felt like ty Burrell had a really good acting moment. I was like full on with him when Stadler's like, I'll tell them, and he goes, they don't give a shit.

Yeah, He's like, they don't care. Would you?

And I'm like, I actually kind of would. I'm anti death penalty, so I guess like.

But I would.

I would be like, it's fine to stay the execution for a little bit if it helps another family get closure.

I don't think. I don't know how, Like you're just assuming people are very selfish.

I feel like, So Elliott leaves the prison and there's all these protesters outside that are probably pro and against execution, and then he sees the coopers and the show fades to black Wright as he's about to tell them that, you know, they figured out who killed their daughter?

Yeah? Wow, Yeah.

And that's the episode, And it was a it was a lot of ins and out, so there's a lot of moving around in this lot of we're going cross state lines, we're in a New Jersey.

I'm just wondering for a killer, why wouldn't he have just confessed to this crime. We're already getting the death penalty, like what was the game playing?

Yeah, it is weird. I don't know.

Oh, I think maybe because it might be because he messed with the body after it was dead, or like some of that, Like there was some shame with that. He said, like too close to home. Like I guess he did most of his other killings in New Jersey.

I don't know. It's a great question.

There's another episode like this in the show where they're just trying to get a guy to say he did these crimes and he's like, remember when he's sniffing.

The baseball hat. Yes, And he's.

Like, I know every kid I did, and I didn't do this one. And it's like, but you know, I don't. I need to remember that episode, sad.

I've recently just watched it. Did he actually kill the kid that they think he did?

I don't even remember. That's why we watched these over and over again. That's the point, Like, I've watched all of them and you're asking me a question of one I watched within the next last two weeks, and I'm like, no clue, But I'll sniff those hats again and be surprised.

All right, Well, let's take a quick break and then I can't wait for you to take us into the reality of all of it.

So this crime, there's a couple different ones. I'll touch on one and then get into details of another. And heads up, there are some super disgusting, twisted, fucked up facts and I will be saying them, so I don't know, get a puke bucket.

But I'm not censoring this.

But the first crime and Kara touched on it in the episode, and Otis tool was mentioned in the Sview episode and basically he's a convicted serial killer and he confessed to the murder of Adam Walsh, but he was never convicted of it and there was never enough evidence to convict him, and so the confession was then also canted,

And what happened with Adam.

Was July of nineteen eighty one, a boy and a mother entered sears at one entrance, and the mom went to go look at lamps, and the boy went to go play video games in a console promotional area, and the other boys that were playing were acting a fool, so the security guard kicked all the boys out, but at another exit. And you know, baby brains can't really

Maybe just the I capitlard, Yeah, I wonder.

So that's pretty gruesome and awful, and it sucks that they don't have closure. And Tool died in prison from psoriasis at age forty nine.

Well it was cirrhosis.

Oriasis is a skin condition that I actually have cirrhosis is a disease of the liver. But what's crazy is in this episode, uh, Stabler goes he died of AIDS in prison, and I looked it up and it just nowhere that you look it says AIDS. And then if you look up otis tool AIDS, it says a couple of random places say he died of cirrhosis and AIDS. And it's just interesting that that's what SVU went with. They were like, he died of AIDS. It's like, well,

I think he had like a very low IQ.

I think he had a traumatic life. But also one of the reasons why there was no evidence is because the cops lost his car. They had his car and I guess it was like impounded and then it was fully lost and like would have had blood and it would have had like all this stuff.

Yeah, the cops fucked up this investigation a few different times.

It was pretty annoying.

But also this is a huge crime. Just to mention really quickly, this is a huge crime that sparked the stranger danger whole thing that we grew up with. Like I grew up like watching videos in school about stranger danger and stuff, And I've been listening to some podcasts lately that are like, this is like a hysteria of stranger danger. Like the number of stranger danger crimes are extremely, extremely low and rare.

Well we're saying that, but we talk about them all the time.

At first, they seem they're the ones because they're the ones they're going to talk about on TV. And half these are made up on SVU, But if you look at the numbers, it's not. Kids are not getting snatched left and right. Usually it's pretty rare. Yeah, but I mean for in the sv universe, it's happening on a daily basis.

And another way the cops kind of fucked up is they wanted him to do it because it.

Would close it up.

Yeah, so it was bad, but it is amazing what Adam Walsh has been able to do and like what he's done for victims' rights, and it's just like really sad and it reminds me of the dad in the episode, like your wounds don't heal? If you need a child, you know, you're just always going to be a different person. The crime I wanted to more focus on was Ed Kemper, and he's pretty famous, a lot of movies, a lot

I only watched season one, but I liked it a lost.

Season one's better than season two and he's not in season two.

So yeah, he did an incredible job, and I liked all the actors.

And I felt the woman character in that show was so good. She was and she had horrible makeup. She was orange the whole time. Go back and watch it. She looks like a Simpsons character. Yeah, I did not notice the makeup team did her dirty, but go on.

So Ed Kemper is alive today. He was born in nineteen forty eight and he is a Sagittarius. So if anyone was wanting to but.

What's his rising sign?

And the reason the FBI and everyone wanted to talk to him. Is because he was smart as hell. His IQ was super high, and so he was really like self resp what is it introspective? Like he was able to talk about the crimes in a really detailed cool way that I.

Guess a lot of other killers didn't.

And I think that he could look at what other criminals were doing and he could like synthesize information and like analyze what motives and stuff like that.

The thing is like he is so interesting and smart and whatever, and then you're like and then you research and you're like, you're an incel. You're just an insult who wanted a fuck like that. At the end of that any you're blaming your mom. I don't know, but the mom does seem like she sucks. But then I don't fully believe it because so he blames a lot of his rage and hatefulness and wild problems on how his mom belittled him, treated him like trash, just hated him so much.

And I guess his sister tried to kill him twice.

What Yeah, like threw him in a deep end of a pool and then like try to do something else fucked up.

To him and when I was reading a little bit about Otis Toole. His mother used to dress him up in dresses and call him Susan. So moms are doing some fucked up shit out there.

But the thing with the mom was she was nervous for her daughter's safety, so she locked him in a basement.

And wouldn't let him out so that he wouldn't hurt the daughter.

Yes, so then that he blames that for fucking him up. But also he had already killed multiple cats. He buried one of the family cats alive, then once it was dead, took it out, decapitated it, put it on a spike. He killed another one of the cats, like slaughtered it. He also is a kid loved to play electric chair and gas chamber and would like make his sisters blindfold him and then he would pretend to dine in an electric chair. So I'm like, I understand if the mom

What is it is wicked? Are you born wicked?

Or his wickedness thrust upon you, but he blames her for all of his problems. So she got sick of dealing with him and sent him to live with his paternal grandparents in Northfolk, California. And then his parents did split up, and that caused some issues because he liked his dad, but it didn't work out living with him either.

I mean, this kid was not easy.

So the mother sent him to live with his paternal grandparents when he was a teenager, and at age fifteen, he got into a fight with his grandma in the kitchen and just shot her dead.

In the kitchen. Oh, he shot her.

He shot her, and then pos humously posts posthumously, post posthumously.

Yeah, that sounds crazy.

But after the dead there's all these post dead stab wounds. So he was pissed at her, so he like shot her, stabbed her a bunch once she was dead, and then when the grandpa came home, he went outside and shot the grandpa outside. And when he talks about it, he goes, I didn't want him to have to see his wife dead. Weird, So it's like nice in a way, Yeah, but no.

But he's having empathetic feelings. That's what's interesting.

Wow, he could also be lying, like he could just have wanted to kill him, but he was like, there's no reason for him to have seen that, so I just killed him. So it is very strange. It's tough to understand it all. So he was sent to Adas Scadero State hospit it all, which was a max security

Don't I don't know what was going on in this hospital.

Because basically he was such a model person and he was so smart that he ended up helping the doctors do psychovals on other patients, and he was like questioning other patients. And so through all of the research, he learned how to trick the psychologists and psychiatrists into thinking he was rehabilitated because they gave him all of this knowledge. And then he also learned tips from the other criminals.

On how to be a better criminal.

So instead of like he just basically learned how to be a super instead, yeah, they supercharged him.

Like instead of like fixing him. They just kind of gave him like better powers.

Yeah, like one of the people, like one of the less since he said he learned was he was told never leave a victim alive because that's a witness.

Always kill anyone that you rape.

And he was like, oh, yeah, I'll put that in my feather cap or whatever, like I'll put it.

I'll remember that.

And he was a really hard worker and so he just did all this extra work there. And I guess sociopaths are hard workers, so it wasn't that surprising. But yeah, he got let out so at age twenty one after killing his grandparents.

He got out sixty months later. And not only but he was only fifteen when he killed his grandparents.

Oh wow, okay, Yeah, so he got out at twenty one, and in November twenty ninth, nineteen seventy two, his younger record was expunged.

So now he's out there like a perfectly like non criminal person.

Yes, and then on his outside world time, he really wanted to be a cop, but he couldn't because he was too big. So he was like six nine and three hundred pounds, and I guess that's too big to be a police office, sir, But he just hung out at cop bars and he became friends with all the cops to the point where cops were giving him handcuffs. One of the cops gave him a gun, like cops gave him a fake like toy badge or some sort of badge. But like, so he now was able to

No way, can you believe it? And then like.

Obviously all the evidence worked out, but so yeah, he was like a smart guy that was able to do anything. And then all the doctors when he was released were like, do he should not live with his mother? Like please, don't, that shouldn't happen. But he was released to his mother and he hates her, she abused him.

Whatever.

So he starts working at the Department of Transportation in nineteen seventy one, and then during this time he gets hit by a car and his arm was super fucked up. So he won a fifteen thousand dollars settlement, and he decided to follow his passions instead of work, and his passions were picking up hitchhikers. And what is an interesting fact is he picked up one hundred and fifty hitchhikers before killing anybody.

Wow, And yeah, he would just pick them up and what and drive them to drive them places? Yeah, well he honestly, somebody's so smart and calculated like that. He was probably like learning how how do you lose someone into your car? How do you make someone feel safe, how do you like keep the conversation going so that nobody can run, and like how far do you have to drive before you're like in a rural area where they can't go anywhere.

I don't know, Maybe do I sound like a serial killer?

I'm like no, But this is what's scary, is like you don't you just don't like all of this was practiced to murder, Like you don't even know how many kiers are out there practicing.

It's like they say, get ten thousand hours. He was getting ten thousand hours.

He was.

And he focused on college students in Santa Cruz because his mom worked there as an administrative assistant, and so there was also another there was like a few killers active in that area during the time. He was dubbed the co ed killer, but there were a couple other killers in that area.

California has had so many fucking serial killers it's it's like insane.

And so, and hitchhiking was dangerous and so then what they said was don't hitchhike.

You know, I'll the PSA, don't hitchhike.

Don't hitchhike unless someone has a college parking stick or like a college authorization sticker, because so you know they work at the college.

He had one of those stickers wow from his mom. Wowow.

So they like all the messaging to all these students was you can trust someone with the school sticker and it actually gave him like an easier way.

To pick up victim. So that is pretty wild.

But yeah, and then I don't know if he stuck to the students because.

His mom worked there, that's what he said.

And they said he picked his mom's favorite students or whatnot, but I think it had to do with women education.

He just, yeah, it is wild.

So in May of nineteen seventy two, he picks up two Fresno State students, Marianne Pesche and Anita Lukeza, and they never made it to their next destination. A female head was discovered in the woods in Santa Cruz and it was identified as Pechet, but luke aza remains have never been found and the head was found in August of nineteen seventy two, so it took a few months to find this head.

Oh my god. Yeah, he was really into decapitating.

He said he loved decapitating because it's a trophy and it is everything, Like, you can't your body doesn't work without the head.

Right, It's a control center.

Yeah, and he liked that it had like a mouth and ears, like he just said, it had everything.

So that's why he liked having heads, but he would keep.

Them or like put keep them in the woods so he could get like that that's where they would he would.

So he he orally raped them after he decapitated.

Okay. And he would also like fuck around with the bodies.

So he would like kill people, drag the bodies back to his room where he lived with his mom, hide them in the closet, and when she went to work, would like fuck around with them. Okay, So he was maybe this is where SVU got some of their inspiration, but he was definitely there's like actually a specific word for oral rape.

There's like a word that Wikipedia gave me.

But I wasn't about to lo I'm tapped out with words, Hannah, did you look it up?

What is it? I haven't. It's spelled I r r U M A TiO ere you matio. Okay, not a word we need to keep. No.

No, so that doesn't need to take up space in anyone's brain.

No.

And he a cop actually pulled him over for a broken tail light while the two bodies were in his car and didn't detect a thing.

Oh my god, that happened so much. It's like, oh, and I'm sure he got off on that.

Yeah, So after he killed them, like I said, he brought the back to the apartment, removed heads and hands, engaged in sexual activity with their corpses.

So that's pretty wild, tough stuff.

So in September nineteen seventy two, so you know, not even a month after the head was found, he picked up a fifteen year old I go coup. This is the thing I hate debating, like what victims did or didn't do, because it's like they shouldn't be dead. But like some people say, she missed the bus to her dance class and decided to hitchhike, and then some places I read were it's just like she decided to hitchhike

I don't know if it's his smartness.

I don't know what it is, but like, yeah, just chill having drinks while there's a dead body in his trunk.

It's so fucked up.

So January seventy three, he picked up Cindy Shawl and he shot and killed her again, brought him into the room when the mom was at home, dismembered the body. He also threw body parts in the ocean, and so body parts we're constantly being washed up.

So that's another thing in this town. Like once in a while, like a body part would just wash up.

Good. Yeah.

I was just gonna say, this is just interesting too that he's shooting them like so many other of these killers like stab them or like do horrible like like.

But he does.

The thing is like he does, like he explains later he stabbed and strangled peschet.

Oh okay, sorry, I thought you because he shot his grandparents and then he shot this one woman.

So I was like, oh, it's interesting that he's shooting them.

So it's like he's getting the death over with quickly so that he could just like mess with the body.

Yeah, he definitely has way MOREMS than the night Stalker, but it is a way of like it's a little random in terms of stabbing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, shooting. Yeah.

And he had multiple guns, so he had like a twenty two and a forty four, Like he had a few you could.

Say, any numbers. I don't know anything about guns. He's got a twelve fifty. Well, because I just remember that.

Because when the cops did eventually like show up to investigate some stuff, he was able to ask leading questions to figure out what kind of a gun they were looking.

For to nowhere his friends were to.

Like help lead them where they didn't want them to go. But they did find a big gun in his closet. And but next to it was a box of trophies of like body parts and purses, id's and shit.

Not body parts I would smell.

But like it had persons and IDs and like different trophies.

They didn't even open the box. It's just tough.

And this this kind of reminds me of Stabler, where it's like you're you know, you can't keep your personal.

In it, like Stabler wanted to solve it.

The crime is so bad, and here they didn't want their friend who's obsessed with them.

I mean he was a cop groupie. Yeah, and that could just see it.

Yeah, like you know when people are complimenting you and you just can't even. I mean, it's humiliating. So he buried Cindy's head in her mother's backyard, so body parts in the ocean.

It I mean, it's like he's just a it's just gross.

It's like gross and vile and really sad.

February FI.

So he's not even taking that much time between the kills. He used like I mentioned a campus parking sticker that his mother gave him. To facilitate a double murder. He offered to drive two students, Rosalind Thorpe and Alice lou and he shot them, drove past campus security gates with the dead women in his car. I know, it's really wild. He then decapitated them, removed bullets, and spread the remains

I'm like, I want to know how many dead bodies are in that wood?

Oh.

I once drove through the park in DC when Chandra Levy was missing that she was eventually found in what I drove through it and we were like, isn't it crazy that she's like missing? Like where do you think she is? And then like she was found like a mile away in this park. Yeah, and like, yeah, a very wooded park, but yeah, Like so what you're saying, like, yeah, when you I totally do that where I see woods that.

I'm like, I wonder how many did bodies are in there? It's scary.

So like, at the same time of his murders, there are two other serial killers, so John Linley Frazier and Herbert Mullins are also killing in Santa Cruz. So it was dubbed the murder capital of the World lol. And then his crime specifically, I said this, but the co Ed killer April nineteen seventy three, on Good Friday, he went to his mother's home and attacked her after she fell asleep.

And in a.

Lot of the interviews I was watching and like he would cry and be like I knew I was going to kill her two weeks before I did, Like, because she had already fallen asleep.

It wasn't like they had a fight that precipitated it, right, It was like he went over there.

Would fight, But I think they always fall I don't think they had a good relationship, Like I just think she hated him and was an alcoholic and he had a lot of mommy issues. She's but I you know, obviously, I don't like when anyone blames a woman for anything.

Yeah, of their own actions. She still didn't deserve to be killed, but she maybe wasn't a great but yeah, he would cry.

He'd be like, oh I saw this person and I knew I would have to kill them. And then basically he picked up two hitchhiker This is like through like his voice. So we also don't know if he's a fucking liar too.

I don't get that vibe.

But like, I'm not a pro, and I guess these profilers the FBI didn't, I mean, they've used his stuff. But he said, like he picked up two girls and drove around and took them to their destination, and he was like, I need to kill my mom. Because all of my killings are just getting back at my mom, and I don't want more young people like these women to die. Like these women shouldn't be dead. They can be alive. If I just kill my mother, that will end at all.

Yeah.

It's like, what is the phrase cutting the head off of the dragon or something. There's like a like I'll cut the head off the.

Snake or something like that. Yeah.

And so he attacked her after she fell asleep. He hit her head in the hammer. Okay, so this is like one of the gross, my gross favorite parts of this. So there's a hammer, He cuts her throat, he decapitated her. He cut off her hands, but then he removed her larynx and put it down the garbage.

Disposed of her vocal cords. Basically, Yeah.

Yeah, they talk about that in mind Hunter, and I think he says why right, Like, I think it's because he just wanted It's symbolic.

Yeah, he handed her to shut up.

Yeah, And I watched the video on YouTube. It was like they would go back and forth from Minehunter to the real tape wow, and just show and some of it was word for word, like they did a great job. And I watched one news clip with the actor on local LA news and like the news reporter was gonna like suck his dick on on set, she was.

Like, you're amazing.

I could talk to you for hours and performance like she was just all over this.

Guy was good. But how about that, he's very good. I saw him at a and I could not focus. I was like so scared because he was there.

Because I feel like I read that because they had to find a man that was so huge like him, and he looks like him and it. But the guy was like only sort of like a newer actor and he was also a special ed teacher, right, Like that's.

What I was reading about him.

You have to be empathetic to your character or you can't play them like yeah, even if they're a bad person. So I am sure for a new actor, like that's so impressive to be able to pull off.

A role like this.

So but after he killed his mother, he and hit his mom's body parts, he called his mom's friend, Sally Hallett and invited her over to the house for like dinner and hangout and then strangled her and killed her and hit her body in the closet. And it was to have a like a cover story to say the mom and friend went on vacation.

Oh my god, yeah, wow, yeah, I mean this guy is really it's fucked up.

Like I guess, if we're going to have a killer, we want them to be dumb as dumb as possible, right, because this guy's thinking of everything. So Kemper actually fled the area and he drove to Pueblo, Colorado, and on April twenty third, he called Santa Cruz police and confessed and they were like, wait, what, bigad, But he led them to all the evidence they needed to prove that he was the co ed killer. October nineteen seventy three, he was found guilty on all eight counts of first

Vacaville, Vaucaville.

Also, this is personal to us, but he learned a lot of cop behavior from cop shows.

So he learned.

He was like, I learned, like you can't talk about crimes too much with other cop because like or he wanted to show up to the memorial services of course, but he's like I knew from cop shows they look for evidence the right. He loved watching cop shows and

So I don't know.

Yeah, it's like weird. You get like brought back down to reality. I'm like, wow, he is so smart and clever.

And then it's like about the crimes and you're like ooh, yeah, oh what was These are just tidbits for okay, so what else was super interesting was when he was picking up other hitchhikers that he wasn't killing, they were all talking about this hitchhike killer.

So he got off on it and he got what people thought. So it was just funny to him that these women were sitting in his car talking about who they think the hitchhiking the co ed killer is, but it was him and driving, which is like, which.

Is like kind of what they're playing on in this episode of SVU when they're like, well, we've got this unsolved crime. Do you know anything about it? And he's getting off on the fact that he knows it's him.

Yeah, so that was wild, and I'm sure that was an ego trip. And he also like I don't That's why I don't like these connections. They're like, why else did you keep the heads? And he said, well, my father which chop the head off two pet chickens, and my mom made me eat them for dinner. And it's like, maybe that's weird and bad, but like, that's not the reason you chop people's heads off, right, because you had to eat a couple of chicken heads.

I'm sorry, that's like I'm not buying that.

Oh, other like young behaviors he did, you know, besides like burning cats and shit, what are burying cats alive?

Was he did not burn any cats? Okay, I just can't read, Okay.

He also would take his dad's bayonet and sneak out at night and spy on his teachers.

Through the windows.

And we've seen that with other killers, Like that's why the boys will be boys, or boys are just annoying or like, oh, come on, we don't want to ruin a guy's life. Like all of these behaviors end up being yuff. Like we need to take violence against women so much more seriously, to not not only to help women, but like to avoid these fucking killers like.

Kill like harm of animals, peeping tom stuff. It definitely is baby steps to a killer.

Yeah. Oh, after he killed his grandparents, he called his mom asking what he should do, and she told him to call the cops. So it's like, you hate your mom, but you're asking her what to do with these dead pairs.

Like I guess he's fifteen, it's like what he probably just didn't know yet.

And then they asked like why did you do it? And he's, uh, why did you kill your grandma? And he said, I just wanted to see what it felt like, which I think is classic socio behavior. Yeah, and then he's been in jail with Charles Manson and Hubert Mullen, and he hated Mullin though, because he was just like a killer, like an idiot, like in the show.

You know, Huang was saying, he's not gonna fucking yeah, he's not going to talk to this guy. He's like not good enough for him.

Yeah, And so he was annoying this other, this Mullin guy. So Kemper just like threw water at him and like beat the and everyone was scared of Kemper. He's giant and he basically would like give him peanuts to behave.

So then he started doing things for peanuts, and.

So he like manipulated Mullen to be like a little pavlog peanut dogs, to do whatever he wanted and to behave.

And again everyone loved him. He's a model in me.

And then he's also like everyone was like hell yeah because this this Mullin guy talk over movies and stuff, and they hated on much he talked, and Kemper got him in shape with peanuts. But yeah, he's in gen pop, which is wild. He helps schedule appointments for the other inmates. He makes ceramic cups like Seth Rogan, and he's a prolific reader of audio books and he has over five thousand.

Hours audible dot com baby, and he.

Runs the prison program for audiobook recordings. But he had a stroke in twenty fifteen so he couldn't do it. And then in twenty sixteen he had his first behavior issue when he refused.

To year in test.

But oh, and he also said that he didn't talk to the FBI to help them, but he wanted to help other people like him and encourage people with his rage and problems to not commit the crimes and that it's not worth it. And he wanted to be someone that they can trust to not kill because it's hard and it's hard to stop and it is a horrible thing and I keep thinking about it. It is like a disgusting thing to take lives. So he was just trying to like help other wanna be killers maybe not do it.

Wow, So that's what he said, again, do we believe you know? I don't know. Now he could be totally lying. It's just you just don't hear killers talk like that.

Yeah, and then he's been denied parole like ten times, and he's up again for it in twenty.

I cannot believe he's even eligible for parole. Oh yeah, constantly, and then he's been waived.

He has eight life sentences, but I guess not with no chance of parole. All right, look, we got to go take a little breaky, and then we're going to talk to our exciting guest.

I'm very excited for this guest, obviously. You know I'm extra excited when I get involved in the intro. Yeah, I would say a fan favorite, a world favorite, an icon, and a star. He's been in the giant Jurassic Park franchise. I've loved him in the HBO series Oz.

I've been a huge fan of him and mister Robot, and of course you all have been fans of this Tony Award winner in his role as George Hwang in SVU.

Guys, we did talk to the legend bead Wog. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. We're so excited to have you. Yeah, the listeners are going to lose their shit.

Yeah.

We wanted to just start out by letting you know that our fans are very very horny, and they are specifically very horny for you.

Of course, why would did I not know that we put.

We've put up polls before on like who's your favorite, and like there's just a lot of Wang love, like just a lot.

Outside of Olivia Benson. You might be the second beloved.

Because everyone is no, no, no, listen, because there are people that hate Stabler and there are people that love Stabler, and.

You know he splits the vote.

Yes, so in terms of universal adoration, it's really like it is Benson.

And then you are you talking? I mean really, I mean this is silly for me to get into it with you, but like, do you mean really? I'm just curious. Are you talking about physically? Are you talking about the whole persona of the person? What do you mean physically?

People?

I mean people literally are like I'm hot for Want, like I love him, Like yeah, so's it's.

A physical thing. It's also I think your character.

And then I don't know if this is a good thing because you know that like the process of the episodes.

But I take what Huang says is fact.

Yeah, like I often like, actually, incest is not a legal if you're over the age of eighteen, and.

I learned that from you.

Yeahong, and like the Pika where the boy was licking the car, the let off the car, like I say that constantly.

Yeah, well, I mean, I mean that was one of the great things about it for me is the trust in being able to understand that whenever I had to say something or I was given something to say that I could I could trust that there was a research end fact based stuff that went into it. So I didn't ever have to like question that this sounds really ridiculous, are you sure or anything like that.

It was. It was reliably well researched, so so that is true. Yeah.

That might be where the love comes from too, because the officers, they you know, they'll shoot a person like something will happen, but you're always like you and tomorrow Attuni are always there.

With facts, with facts to help the case.

Yes, shadiness, yes, and then yes that's right. Yeah, I mean I do want to.

I mean, I just I don't know if this is appropriate, what what what our what our game plan is for this conversation, But I mean, I mean I am fascinated in what it is that made him popular because I never felt it when I was doing it.

I just thought, Oh, I'm going to say this, I'm going to say that.

And then and then I realized that people were really into him in a kind of big way, like you're talking about and I and I like dissecting maybe I'm like him in this way. I like trying to figure out why they actually feel that way because I'm just doing it and when I watch it, and I just watched this episode right to kind of and I haven't watched the show in a long time, and so it was really interesting to say, Oh, I see what it

I think what was your final episode or your final episode before you maybe came back for one time, was like you were administering a drug to someone that you weren't supposed to, but you knew that was the right thing to do, you know, So that's an exacting you like that.

So I guess that really.

Makes an impression on people, or people really believe that in really respond to that, and I like that.

That's very nice And the confidence is right on the money too, because they all hate psychologists for some reason. Like but you never that Hohong never like that didn't bother him because he knew he was right. He was never intimidated by Stabler, who was like shoving people into cabinet.

Yes, right, right, right, Because I think your character was like very early on the mental health bandwagon. Like before now everyone's like self care mental health. You know, now it's more talked about, but you know, nineteen ninety nine, two thousand, when the show was starting out, your character had all these psychological insights and I think that's I mean, it's a very female fan base.

And I think that's like what draws people to your character.

And there is a real surge or a kind of a trend of young female fans of the show who entered the field that I hear about all the time, that that a young woman will say I watched the show and that's what I decided to do with my life because I was so taken with the vocation. And it's never been a man that said this to me. I can't recall a man has ever said it to me. I think it's almost always a young woman who is just it just opened their heart in a way or something, and that's nice, so great.

Yeah, can we talk a little bit about like your history, like how you got into it, so, like you originally were on just for like two episodes in season two.

I think it was four maybe, Oh okay.

I think originally they said we're going to try this out for four of singletons.

From what we looked up for was when you became a regular and yeah, doing something.

Yeah, I did you know they signed me up to do four.

Hey, we want to try this new character out and it's for and and Neil Bhaer had just come into the show, and Neil Baar was was hell bent to bring a medical perspective to the show, being a doctor himself, and thinking that the medical encycle logical perspective, it's going to be valuable to this particular show, and he was right. I think I feel like that's something that's not as

Yeah, you're right, I didn't realize that they kind of have moved away from that a little bit.

Yeah, And it's interesting because you know, you start out still the opening of the show is still exactly the same as it ever was if unless I'm wrong, and that is saying, you know what, these are like really intense people and they did they did this terrible things and so what goes hand in hand with that is why how or you know all of that and so so Neil was very keen and kind of creating that character in that perspective, and they did continue on with it,

And that is that the answer to the question that you're asked.

Yeah, we just I was sort of just wondering if, like, did you know that you were going to be on for or did you know, like that it was sort of like a trial run for a longer part.

Yes, and so okay, and I knew was a trial run for a longer part.

And I my son had just been born, and I didn't want to leave New York. And I felt I was the luckiest thing ever if I were to be able to ask to be stay, if I didn't you know, blow it or whatever. And so I I was. It was the luckiest thing that could ever happen to a person. Actually, I was able to get the closest thing to what you call what is a normal job.

You know, it was like, it's not like.

A real and normal job, nine to five job, And as an actor, that's just something that doesn't happen. And particularly now with in cable and all of that stuff, there's no such thing as a twenty three episode season, and that is what ensures a real kind of steadiness that is really great when you're you know, starting family and stuff. And so that was really fortunate for me, and I'm extremely grateful to everybody that made that happen.

And then like along with starting a family, like were you able to also sort of stay in the Broadway like flow of things, since the show could kind of maybe. I don't know if they like work around your schedule or you don't do.

Nights or yes and no.

I mean, I believe I was doing a Broadway show in two thousand and four, and I was already on the show in two thousand and two, wasn't I It was two thousand and two, I think, And so I did I know that.

If I look at my resume and look.

At my own biography, I see, Oh, I did this Broadway show in two thousand and three slash two thousand and four, So there was some reason that I was able to do that. Eventually, when I got deeper into the show, I was able to wangle out of them an ability to do a play like I did a

That was the hiatus amazing.

Well, so we talked to Margaret Choe a few months ago and she said, we were like, if you were to come back as a different character, who would it be. And she said Huang's sister, oh, and that you do have a sister and she would love to play your sister.

Oh.

I love it any chance you two guys would come back.

And yeah, what are the chances of Huang's return? And then we have to get Chow to be your sister.

You know, there's no there I have no barrier to coming back at all. I mean there's no I mean I wouldn't want to come back in a kind of super binding way, you know, like I I love the way it is now when when Warren Light feels like there's a there's an opening or there's a reason, and then then he'll have me come back.

And I've come back maybe twice, I think.

And there was another opportunity that just kind of came and went because of COVID. It was really impossible to kind of just bring somebody in. And you know, you have so much has to go into bringing actors in and off on and off a show now, or has been in the last few months, that a lot more preparation has to go into it. They can't just kind of decide, oh, let's do it two weeks from now, let's make sure that we have a hung scene going on.

Of course I would do especially if Margaret was going to be my sister.

And they need to do Margaret as a serial killer because she said she wanted to play serial who's also yeah, you can get brought back because you have double insight, yeah, your psychological background, and.

Then okay, that's okay.

Yeah, I'm just working on a specscript.

Yeah, I'm into it. I would do anything with Margaret ever, ever, ever, ever.

Yeah, She's fantastic.

Absolutely, So we both listened to your list culture resta you did Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm a big fan of Bowen.

And Mattson all the time.

While I'm getting my steps in, and you did mention that you wish there was like more about your character, and we knew more and there was more background and like depths shown throughout the years, and I was wondering if you had created any of that that you wish was shown, or like what background you had for the character.

I didn't.

Actually, I might more now that I'm a different I mean I've evolved my process or whatever.

I feel like I might.

I might be different now, But you know, I think I was kind of aware of the show that I was on, like that, this is the show that I'm on, and this is what is these are the parameters of the show. And ultimately I did kind of whine about it to myself and to my inner circle about you know, about it it kind of having an identity that was very consistent, which I think the fans love and everybody loves.

With that, and that's perfectly good.

But so therefore, to make a short story long, I felt like there wasn't a lot of room for it, and I also I didn't want to make things up that were not going to be right. And the perfect example of this is like the eleventh hour, when he came out. I was like, oh, I wasn't. Nobody we didn't talk about this, like where did that come from? And there was a there was a sense, and that was when I kind of went, oh, you guys, you know, I felt kind of like that was I don't know how to describe it.

It wasn't a detail that felt that organic to me.

I mean, I and at the same time, I'm all all for the what's the difference.

It doesn't matter at all.

I mean, gay people are are all different kinds of people, and this person could certainly be a gay person.

There's no reason for them not to be.

But the way that I had thought in my mind he was, and that from some some very minor comments throughout about dating girls or something like that.

I didn't didn't. I wasn't there with that. It wasn't on.

It was a surprise to me, and it was a surprise that kind of served that particular storyline. It was like, it was kind of convenient. I think, yeah, but that is the kind of show that I was on. That was the kind of show that at that moment in time, very late in the game, they could do that and it was okay. But they did do that because nothing else was ever discussed, Like we they it was able to do that because all the details were left out prior to that, So then the opportun unities are greater.

Yeah, and I feel like now, if your character was like that was now or in a more recent season, I think they would have gotten more into it. They seem to now be getting more into like one character's gambling addiction, one character's issue with this, you know, like they definitely get more into the personal lives of the characters. I feel like where at the beginning, it was like you just saw a little bit of Stabler in Benson's personal life, but everyone.

Else was sort of like just outside of that.

Yes, that's right, and so I see what you're saying completely, because that was what the show was doing at that time.

Was like, you know, and I.

Think I felt like, oh, I want that, I want a little bit of personal about me there, And there was there are moments where there were quong heavy episodes, and yet it never felt to me like enough or it never felt like as much as it could be.

But that's it.

I mean, I don't really, I don't have much more of a complaint about it than that. That's just that is, as I said before, the way that the identity of the show, and it would be dumb of me to buck against the identity of this bigger show that I am a part of by thinking other that it should be any other way than the way it was.

Right. Another thing I keep saying, I've it's been in my head since the last Culture Lisa's episode. I keep going, we love a moral queen, just to nobody, over and over again.

That's exactly right.

I mean, he they have I don't remember who said it it was bad, right, I don't know. Their phraseology is just fucking amazing. They're just great.

Yeah, they have like their own lexicons, and.

You know exactly what he's talking about when he says it, So it's not like some foreign language or anything like that. But it's it's not exactly how I would have put it. But that's exactly true, and it's true. She's the moral center and she you know, it's great. That is the engine that drives the show. I think his victims' rights and the under of victims' rights and what we're doing for these victims and how we're serving them as a community of professionals.

I think that's an undercurrent and.

The show that is perceivable to their average audience member on some level.

Yeah.

Peter Scanovino, who's a current detective, he said, the reason women love the show so much is because women are listened to, and that's like in it.

Yeah, a rare thing.

Yes, that's right. It's like porn for women.

Yes, well yeah, And I think it's interesting what you said before too, about how your character was also like yeah, more sensitive, listen to people and kind of got to that, like whereas you had munch with conspiracy theories, iced tease, this hard ass Maloney's like, you know, toxic masculinity personified.

So like your.

Character is sort of like this, like other it's like another call into Olivia.

Yeah, oh yes.

And of course the Olivia George relationship was the only relationship I had in the show, and so that was of great comfort to me actually, and of great you know, I was really into that, and and we always made jokes about it because there was hardly.

Ever a moment when we were really.

It happens on very specific occasions that our relationship is even a little bit you know, dealt with or illuminated.

And yet it really kind of carried me through the whole thing.

That was the that was the most interesting and fun part of the character for me is his relationship to her.

Do you Are you and Marishka still in touch?

Not?

Yes and no.

I mean we're in touch, but really not in a daily way or in a thing. And I do miss that because she's just kind of such a great person. I'm in touch more with Stephanie. Stephanie and so Stephanie and I kind of but Stephanie and Murushka are also very tight, so you know, peripherally, there's a kind of keeping track of people in that way.

Yeah, that seems like a scoop that I liked.

Well, we talked to Cat Craigan and he had just texted Mrshka for her birthday, so we're just interested.

Yes, right, I just texted Stephanie today because I was at a restaurant and I said, have you been to this restaurant? This is an incredible restaurant, And of course she had been there. She knows every single restaurant in New York. That's what was it. Why on w A y A N in the Lower east Side or the kind of the Lower east Side is Chinatown.

Yeah, next trip to next trip to NYC.

So your first episode is peak and yes, wild? Were you like, holy shit, they're really throwing me into this? What have I gotten myself into? Like the end, he's just in bed with his he killed someone, he's like licking his brush.

Ye everywhere.

It was like such a wild first episode.

I think, you know, this is really interesting for me because watching the show again in a way, and I haven't watched the show at all for years and years, and then kind of transporting myself back in time to my state of mind at the time. I don't think I was as aware of what you know, like you said, what I was getting myself into. I was kind of just professionally kind of committing myself to the thing. I didn't really first of all, the character, it felt very

So then when I look back.

On it, I think, oh, wow, there was this, And maybe that's what created for me a sense of not leaning into how depraved people were, allowing me to be neutral about it and clinical about it, because I never kind of went, oh, god, you guys, this is really like upsetting. I didn't really ever play it that way.

For a character.

And I'm now to this day will watch therapy scenes and other shows and think, oh, I think you're showing what you think about what's actually happening in this in a way that's not actually what would actually happen, because therapists go out of their way to just be really kind of blank and say, well, what do what does that make you feel? As opposed to you know, doesn't that make you feel upset? They would never say doesn't that make you feel?

It's set?

They'd say, how does it make you feel? There's a very slight difference, but I think it is a big difference in George's whole persona that he bases everything on that kind of neutrality. To answer your question, I didn't really feel like I was. I didn't understand as I do now looking back, the who of it as I do now looking back on it. And you always watch you often look at things from your past past work and kind of judge it and say you do it differently or whatever.

But I was a little naive about it.

I was like, kind of, Okay, so this is the part he's the analyst to this kind of into the mind of and the killer or whatever or the perpetrator, And can I understand that he'll come in and report on these things? And I was, you know, experimenting with all these crazy things, like I had actually had a a British accent in the first episode, and then we I redubbed the whole episode.

Oh, I was like, I don't really. We also noticed that you had glasses.

In the beginning, and they just it was just the first episode and then it's like no, no, no glasses, bye bye, And I was, I was, you know, I come from This is a very interesting Now that you're pointing this out, I'm realizing what happened actually is that I have I came from a background of being what I would call a character actor, an actor that is not not not mining my own personality, but looking for

And then I.

Stayed on the show as long as I did, and then when I finally moved on from the show, it took me and my representatives and in my career a couple of years to get my footing back where I have now again, I feel like I'm I'm back in character land, which I am more comfortable in and where I where each time I go into a new job, I'm looking for the glasses and the accent, like I really am embracing that again and that I see that other people are.

Hiring me that way.

But for a minute after coming out of a procedural, people are like, well, what do you bring to the table?

You know?

Not?

You know?

And that was really interesting. I kind of became this procedural guy for eleven years and then had to kind of figure out how to get back and find myself again. And I think that was one of the reasons why I did move on from it, because I didn't feel like that was really myself as a performer.

So we're having you on obviously because we want to talk to you about all two hundred episodes in the show. So if we can just start from the top, No, we we actually this is probably going to be part of the episode Execution, which we picked because we thought that was like sort of like ahuong heavy episode, like where.

You're got to a wall. Yeah, you got thrown into a wall.

You got to sort of you got to sort of really like big time Christopher Maloney, which is fun, like, you know, he thinks he's sort of running this serial killer interrogation and you're like, I'm in charge.

So do you remember anything about that episode or you watched it.

Before you Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm you know, I'm not messing around here. I thank you, And that's why I was late coming to you. I just full disclosure to everyone out there. I came fifteen minutes late because I said, oh, I need fifteen more minutes to finish this show.

The best of it was a.

Fifty for the second time, and I remember a lot about it. One it was I don't know if you've gone over this with people before, you probably have SVU at least in certain times of its history has been famous for really long hours, and especially on a Friday night, because the turnaround of time that you have to give the crew off. If you start at five o'clock in the morning on a Monday and you end at seven point thirty, then you have to turn the crew around.

The SBO and SVU.

For a stretch of the time that I was there, it was neutroy and it really wears people down. It's very exhausting, but there's a kind of in the trenches feeling to it, you know.

And I know that these scenes.

With Nick Chinlin in the interrogation room were at one o'clock in the morning what I imagine was a Friday night. It might have been a Thursday night, but it was either a Thursday or Friday night, and it's one I.

Remember thinking for some reason.

Oh, I'm never going to forget how this feels, which is I'm exhausted and we're having to play this really kind of intense scene. And there was a sense somehow, and I think you can sense it in the final cut of this show that it's a unique episode, like those scenes with him are more like a movie than there than they're in a TV show, or more like an interrogation scene in a film like way than even the regular interrogation scenes that we have in SVU. And

No, we haven't, but we know he was originally auditioning to be the role of Stabler.

Yes, and that was kind of That's kind of the trivia that I think is the most the greatest trivia about that episode. And you can see, you know what where that might have come from.

Yeah, it's very like it's very Silence of the Land.

It is very like very it's it reminds me of sort of the scenes that you see in mind Hunter, which is like the case that we think this episode's based off of, is like the interview with ed ed Kemper, like a famous serial killer and like there's videos of that, but yeah, it is more.

Cinematic almost this episode.

Well, how about the stuff like getting your head semmed against the What was that you did?

You?

Did you have a stunt person or like how were they?

No?

No, they I did it and I and I learned, I mean I knew how to exactly how to have a little bit of experience, like you know, how to make yourself look like you're getting slammed against the wall when you're really not, and you have to work with the other actor to do that. And they always have somebody there addressed like you, to step in at any moment, and then they always ask you what do you feel feel about this?

What's your comfort level actually doing it yourself?

And there are times when they want to use a stun person and you go, oh, I really really want to do this. And what I think we thought at this point is, well, it really will be good if it looks.

Like it's my face.

You can see my face there, and you really can you can see that it's my face.

Yeah, And then I remember thinking, oh, my mom's going to hate this.

This is like really intense, you know, and other people, like I remember people calling me or texting me after it came on, probably calling me and saying, oh my god, that's that was really intense. I didn't like seeing that,

We could have used a little bit.

More rehearsal is what I think we could have done. But I think it actually plays quite beautifully. But I do watch it and go, oh, yeah, there's that thing where he says watch out for these things, and then we see those things actually happening, and then we start getting nervous because we know that, oh, my gosh, he's going to start unraveling and Okay, I'm going to go over and push the button on the wall and we're

I was going to ask you really quickly about this episode where because like you have this really interesting episode with Stabler too, like because you know, he'll try to sort of put you down because he's not into psychologists like Lisa mentioned or he's not into psychiatry, and then you can sort of stand up to him, but then you're you've also been this like shoulder for him to

You know, to talk out his feelings.

So I was just wondering, like, what was your relationship like with like with like h Chris Maloney and like.

You know, well and you had known him for a long time. Yeah, oh yeah, you.

Had known him for a long time. And I love him. I think he's a very special person. Actually, he's a he's a very He presents a certain thing. He certainly presents the certain things on those on these two shows, and he's aware of that presence, and he's aware of the power of that, and so as a result, he undercuts it with humor. And he undercuts all of that intenseness with a kind of boyish kind of humor, like a kind of you know, like a silliness actually, and

That always is better.

So I don't remember specifically the day that we shot any of those scenes with Chris, but I do remember it sincerely, remember enjoying those scenes and going, oh, look at us.

We have a scene. We're having a scene together.

And now the actors do this all the time, where they go, oh look at us, we're in a scene together. We haven't been in a scene all season, and that's always a kind of fun thing to notice and enjoy and stuff like that.

Do you have any thoughts on his new asses fame, his butts all over.

The internet as much as me, I'm not only the internet as much as you. But all I can say is I know exactly.

I mean, I I'm.

Guessing what you're talking about. And I'm gonna say, well, what has taken so long?

Really? Right?

Any of us who watched the first five years of and you know, and and again I will say, I will throw him under the bus, right, I mean, I have no problem throwing him. He's so aware of this and he will stick it in your face.

Oh.

He's been like responding to people on Twitter, people asking him like, how do you have these big cakes?

And he like writes.

Back, yeah, oh, he'll tell you. I mean, it's a formula and if you want to do it, you could have cakes like that too. But it is a lot of work. And he's a very disciplined guy. And you know, kudos to him for owning it.

Right.

And here we are, you know, we're where's sixty? You know, so you know this is at the time of your life when.

Which I thought I thought was a vicious online rumor about you. That makes no sense to me that you're sixty.

Well thanks, I mean, yeah, I think Chris and I are basically the same age.

And hear him too, yeahah, you both look like I don't know, nothing's changed.

Well I know, no, you're wrong, because I watched this. I just watched the show and I think, yes, plenty has changed. And I'm watching it.

It's me.

I'm watching my own face and watching Stephanie, and I'm watching Chris and I'm watching Merchigan her little pixie haircut, and I'm going, wow, look at this people.

Who are those people? And it's wonderful, It's very nice.

So what are you working on now?

I know you just I think you just wrapped on Nora from Queens another season of Normal Queens, and I.

Do love that show, and that has been really a good show for me and to me. And you know, the first step is the first season I enjoyed very much, and I enjoyed the second season even more. Getting to know all these people even better and loving them and becoming closer to them has been a big part of that. But also my involvement in the show has deepened, and my role in the show in some ways has deepened, and so and I directed an episode this year, and so I'm super into it.

I highly recommend it.

I mean, it's I'm not sure what the crossover from s you to nor from the Queens is. But if you are so inclined, I would I would tell people not.

I bet it's not small. I mean a lot of things.

People that listen to our podcast at least like comedy, yes, work comedians, yes.

And you talk about Bowen and Bowen's our touchstone, right, are our.

Comment right, He's our common denominator.

And I've I've worked with Aquafina once before and she was lovely and so great and funny.

And I also loved hearing you on Less Culture says talk about how nice it was to be able to have relatability with your co stars in a way that you haven't been able to before such a nice large Asian cast like Bone's talking about some kind of mushrooms and that like he's never been on a set where like everyone's eating the mushrooms.

That's right, And I just thought that was beautiful.

Yes, it is beautiful, and it's it's something that I think is really valuable for someone like going to point out because people that don't have that experience, or people can relate to it in their own sphere in one way or another, women or or people of a certain age or whatever. It is that when you're in a group of people in which you can all overlap with some kind of experience or some kind of commonality, then there's a bond that occurs, whether you want to or not.

It, I think.

And do you want to direct more?

I do. Yeah, I've always been a dire. I directed when I was you know, theater and everything. Back when I was in high school, I had this great relationship with a teacher who encouraged me to do lots of different things, and then, as luck would have it, I concentrated on being an actor really, to be quite honest, And it is only now that I'm like saying no, but I really want to be doing these other things. And I've never really been able to concentrate on them.

Liza, I don't know. I'm still shocked and stunned what I mean. We just I'm so excited. People have been talking to us about getting bed Wong on the show, and I'm just so excited we were able to do it. And he is a dream person. We could have talked to him for so much longer.

Yeah.

I also like that we had to like he didn't let us off the hook, and he was like, why do people like me? I need to know the exact reasons, so I like to do it. I liked that. That was that was really fun. No, He's so good And I love people where you could tell they love their craft and what they do and are like so thoughtful and so giving with their time and answers. And I've just been obsessed with him for decades. It is crazy to be like you were and father, You've been in

And I have to say, always nice when a guest rewatches an episode, their episode that we're going to talk about, always nice when they take the time, and I.

Love that BEADI also knows that George Huang is the truth, you know what I mean. I thought he was going to school me and be like, please stop taking what he says is fact.

But I love that he was like, no, yeah, I think that show is to research.

It's too based in research and fact for them to be like I think they stretch shit sometimes, but Huang is an encyclopedia. Well, okay, So for our postmort im, besides learning that bed Wang is amazing, what did we learn from today's episode?

I mean, hitchhiking is just not an option? Don't do it?

Yeah, no, hitchhiking, especially now with all of our phones and all the options that we have, there's really you know, this was a while ago, so good for technology. Bad if your phone dies. I mean, I don't know, it's scary out there.

Right, I mean, there's not that much like like the the execution episode is like so specific and it's so about like a truly deranged like serial killer. So I don't know how much we like learned specifically from it, but I guess Alex Cabot is a fucking boss and ty Burrell's character can go screw Like he thought you're you're good, Alex, but you're not spectacular.

I think we found out who was spectacular in the.

End, didn't we.

Yeah, But also like, don't hang out with killers when the shift change is about to happen.

That's really Yeah, that's a good that's a good thing.

When you're scheduling your visit with a serial killer, make sure that it is not during a shift change, yeah.

Or like the week before he's about to get killed. I don't know, it's it's just testy stuff, it is. I mean, that's what I wanted to do when I was a young girl, before I realized, you know, I'm not really into academics, but I wanted to like work in prisons and talk to killers. And then I was like, I don't rather have a good time then look at Gray Walls. I don't think I could do it. But from the kill. Also like, if someone murders a bunch of people at age fifteen, don't let him out at twenty one?

Is that this crime? Or now I get everything confused. No, you're right, that's at Kember. He killed his grandparents and then he killed more many more people.

Yeah, like leave them, and it's just like, it's so frustrating. I know we touch on this a lot, but that we have people sitting in prison for like tiny amounts of coke or weat or something or I.

Don't know, robbing some stuff.

And then you have people who murdered family members that are like, yeah, I have fun out there, peace out, go back, go back, and kill more people.

Like it's so fucked up.

When you start dating someone or meeting someone or anything, figure out what their relationship with their mothers.

Like, I think that's important. I think we.

Need to know how you feel about your mother and make sure it's good and if.

Not, yeah, keep I've ever had the urge to cut out your mom's vocal cords.

I don't think we're getting a second bumble date.

You know, I keep talking about the larynx to everybody, and it really upsets people, but I can't stop bringing it into normal conversation.

It seems very on brand for you, Lisa.

I also think I.

Also think that this episode like brings up a very interesting issue about death penalty. You know, I'm anti death penalty mostly, I mean I am, I'm anti death penalty. And I think it's just like what that father was saying of the other the cellmates victim, like you when this happens to you, like the wound never closes, Like I don't think killing the killer closes that wound for you.

And it also is certainly not going to close a wound for.

Like possible other victims that exist that this person is going to the grave with the information about So just.

One example of why I don't believe in the death penalty.

But well, how are you better than anyone when you're doing the crime?

Like you know what I mean?

Yeah, And actually a few episodes ago I mentioned the sociologists and that HBO show Crazy Not Insane, And one of the things she did was she talked to a professional executioner who's like a traveling executioner and he goes from town to town executing people.

Oh my god, and that's his job.

And she said that talking to him was the first time she actually felt scared and like talking to a true psychopath because so many of the other killers were

Think it's a deterrent. I really don't think it's a deterrent.

Like I don't think when people are committing these crimes, they're not like, am I gonna die on death row?

Like that's just not I don't think it's a deterrent. And we didn't talk about this.

But it's also like so many people are killed and then evidence comes out you know that, yeah, they didn't do it, and like that's reason enough, right, right.

So but this is a larger conversation obviously, But.

How many essays did you write about this in high school?

This was like I've written a lot. I did do a capital punishment essay one time. I think in middle school. God, I'd love to get my hands on that. I'm gonna see if.

I can get through some old box that was my senior thesis, Hannah.

We're posting that as a PDF and our mention in our stories. Please we're gonna post it, all right. So for today's what would this your PEG do? Which is you know, our weekly segment where we direct you towards resources they can give you more information on the subject. In today's episode, we thought we'd point you towards a book written by Robert Wrestler, the man who interviewed Ed

FBI, and Robert K.

Wrestler is the man who invented the term serial killer, so definitely interesting to read his words and thoughts on the subject if you're a true crime nut, so check that out and please join us.

Next week we will be covering the episode Lessons Learned, Season fourteen, episode eight, and as always, those are on Hulu and Peacock, or you could check out your local library and next time you hear from us, there will be a clink a new clink another Baby get ready for Baby Gossip.

A logan I guess technically, but yeah, I refused? Are you kidding? Thank you so much, Bye bye. That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production. If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email at That's Messed Up Pod at gmail dot com.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Karaklank and at glitter Cheese.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to SBU super fan and our incredible producer, Hannah Kyle Kraton.

And to our sound engineer and personal hero Anali Snilson, and to Henry Koperski for our theme song, to Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thanks to our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarrif, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

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