Down Low in Hell's Kitchen w/ L. Steven Taylor

Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on. These are our stories. Done done, Yay, that's messed up an SVU podcast. I'm Lisa coming at you and I'm Kara right behind. What's going on, guys, I am embarrassed.

This is our podcast about Law and Order SVU. We recap episodes, we talk about true crimes are based on and we talk to guests and we've got a good one for you today.

But first we like to just chit chat.

And now that Lisa's moved across the country, for me, it's one of the only times I ever.

Got to talk to No. I actually text you pretty much all day.

Way, did you end up ever posting that photo of.

Rosy and Oscar? I'm gonna post it today. I forgot.

But how fun was that When I was helping Lisa move, she had this huge, like it looks like a rolling pin of saran wrap, and my kids found it and were obsessed. They were like, it's a huge rolling pin. And then I was like, no, it's saran wrap. And I was showing it to them and they were like, wrap it around us. So I ended up like dextering my children and they just like are in a little They're both wearing like tube dresses made out of you know, soran and it's funny. It'll be up on my Instagram

And anything on the docket or just like beach Pool drinks lounge. I think beach Pool drinks.

I mean she goes there all the time because her family has like a place there, so she knows like where to get like weed and where to have fun. So I guess I'll just be following her lead. But yeah, no big plans on the docket.

I don't think.

Oh, I will be passing Epstein's Island on my fairy ride from the airport to the island.

Well, you better take photos of it, Yeah, I will.

And she also said that we can kind of see it from her family's balcony, and I was like, that's terrifying, but okay.

Yes, but for someone with a crime podcast, I feel like being near Epstein's Island and even close because sex Crimes podcast that is it's kind.

Of it is wild. It is sort of like a monument I have to at least observe.

Yeah, it's like going to the World War two, you know the names or in DC, it's like you just gotta and you know they've.

Done like two different I know you know this, but they've done two different arcs of Epstein on SVU, and we have to decide which one we want to do.

I don't want to research it. I'll tell you that much it I'll do it. Yeah, it'll be me, It'll be me. I'll do it. But it is wild that they did an episode on SVU.

Way before this was like a common knowledge thing, but everyone always knew. It's kind of like like Harvey Weinstein, like everyone knew what was going on if you were a part of that world. So open secrets, I mean. But the one of the funniest things I've ever seen in my whole life. A few halloweens ago, Tim Dillon dressed like the Epstein like temple building and they did like a man on the Street interviews as the temple. And that is when I went listen, he deserves everything he has in his life.

I'm like, this is comedy, Like, this is the best thing I've ever seen. Yeah, no subjects off limits for that guy.

Oh wait, did I tell you that I'm bringing Rosie to Disneyland for her birthday.

I was there when you were trying to come up with the plans, So yeah, I know that's being planned out.

Because I stupidly thought that Lego Land was close by and it's not. And so we're going to Disney, which I was trying to put off for as long as possible, but now we're doing it. It's our friend is coming and bringing her daughter, and then Rosie's bringing her other little bestie, so it's gonna be two adults, three kids.

I already bought the tickets. You bought the tickets. I bought the tickets.

I mean, I'm going to be paying for them for I cannot believe what an expensive place that is, like for a day there, I just cannot believe how much money it is.

It's so crazy. What is a two hundred ticket? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, it's a little under two hundred.

And then I kind of added on for the Genie Pass because everyone's like, you kind of need it, and it's only thirty dollars more, and when you're already spending that much, what's another thirty dollars? You know?

So like, but if.

Everyone is getting it, how does it Genie Pass? Like how I don't understand how any of this works now? And now you could sign up online and.

I don't know if you can do it if you're a season pass holder, and I think that's a lot of people that go all the time. I don't know, I don't know. That's a great question. If everybody's genieing, then like, are you a genie? Like, I don't know, you know, but I'll find out. But if anybody's listening and you have Disneyland tips for going with children, of course they do. I've already received a couple of very good tips, Please DM them to me. I really want this to be seamless.

What are the tips here? To God?

Like, everything you do is on the app, and the app drains your battery, so you have to bring like an external charger for your phone.

Great tip. Great, yep.

You got to order your food like in advance so that you just pick it up. You can bring a stroller, and it's like great to have a stroller. Even though my kids a little older, I'm going to bring a stroller just because we can put all of our shit in there and they can hop onto it. You know that when we go to things, I have four kids hanging off that stroller. Oscar sits up top, three kids hang on the side of it, and I push all of them.

I love that your arms are probably so strong.

I get a full workout uphill at the zoo. Are you kidding? A little butt little a little ug glute action.

But yeah, I just wanted to put that out there, since you guys are all the most knowledgeable people in the world, I wanted I wanted everyone to tell me they're little Disney.

They're gonna have so many I mean, I honestly, like I understand, like you're planning a whole day. I order your food and pick it up in the app. That's easy, that's your card is there? Perfect? But yeah, it also sickens me, like everything you know, like just walk around.

But everybody says it's like a well oiled machine. It's like really really like like they say about SVU, Like everyone's tickets really well organized. It's so I'm I'm hoping that it's not. We're not like hopping to different parks like if you you know, or like the shit you do in Orlando, because that's the only place I've ever been. I've never been to Land. But isn't this crazy that we I just brought this up.

Kind of on a whim.

But the guest that we talked to today, does talk about that with us? Oh my god, we did talk extensively with our guest about this. I didn't even realize. Yes, And then I saw someone else that does it that night.

Oh yeah, the girl one of the girls that does the hair at the salon. She's a big Disney girl and she she has a season pass and she goes and dresses up and does all of it.

I mean, I get it. It's magical. Nostalgia's in.

I mean whatever, I just have to, like, I have to do something so that Rosie's not trying to buy ten million things. Like I have to be like, you get one thing, so pick it, like she's just gonna ask me for everything.

Well that's also what our friends said, do not buy something in the beginning.

Yeah, like let's wait, tell me what you want at the end and we'll go back to it or.

Whatever, right, Yeah, or something that's not like a full toy, because our friends said last time they went, the girls just wanted to play with their new toys and they were like didn't care so much. So it's like maybe if you buy the ears or like I remember, I used to be really jealous of the like the Pluto dog leash like it.

Looked like you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that thing.

Like somebody that there was something you could put in the stroller that's not like that distracting, but like, yeah, they're gonna want to everything. They're gonna want ice cream, they're gonna want the snacks like they're going on to meet everybody.

Someone told me like, oh, Rosie's basically tall enough to go on a lot of the rides, because I was like, what can she even go on? But apparently there's a lot of stuff for her to go on at her height, and our friend's kid is a little bit shorter, so I was like, I hope she and her mom was joking going, oh.

I'll just put lifts in her shoes, and she said that.

Her parents put lifts in her shoes, which she was a kid, which is so perfect. If you know her dad, I feel that they would try to pass her off as taller.

Well, I'll tell you a story, and I think I might have told you before, but David Drake was a child and he was too small. You know that ride that like it's a boat that goes yeah, like this what is it? Is there a name for it? It's not like a full ride.

Guys.

It's like, you know the boat that swings up and down and you're kind of just like swinging.

Yeah, it swings side to side. It looks like a half moon or something.

Yeah, it's between a carnival like, it's like one of the smaller rides. So his dad brought him up there, and he slid from under the gate and the dad grabbed him by the straps of the back of his own overalls and he dangled while being held by his overall straps.

And he has never been on a ride ever since.

My god, Park, there's a reason for those height levels. Yeah, Hershey Park I went to as a kid, and I fucking love I've.

Never been I would have loved it. I love Hershey's. I don't care what anyone says. And oh the sugars too, the taste is whatever. Go back to England then, bitch, I like it.

I love Hershey But we went to Hershey Park ancestme place in one family trip and it was like the best and my siblings were all too scared to go on anything, and I just went on everything by myself.

Yeah, damn, I loved it. I just really want to go as a special person. I mean, obviously if you listen to the podcast, you know that I want that. Like I don't want to wait. I don't want to do ipe treatment. Yeah, because I pissed myself on Space Mountain when I was a teen. And it's like, I just don't want to wait in a line. I have to be too much. It's like, honestly, all of my

It's a Saturday. I'm excited because I think she'll have.

A blast, but she also wants to stay for the fireworks, and I'm like, what time are we getting home?

You know, let's just stay there. Suddenly I've invited myself to her birthday. Yeah, you're like, wait overnight. You mean we're gonna get a hotel? No, I meant to. Actually, I'm in Tacoma. Please come see me live. I'm happy to be in Tacoma. Wait what weekend April fourth to the sixth? Oh wow, yeah, Spokane in Baltimore. I'm doing Moon Tower baby, New Orleans, Kansas City. I think you know you know who I want to come.

Yeah, Lisa's all over the place doing stand up. Will announce pod dates down the road, but in the meantime, go get your Lisa fixed. I really really really love watching Lisa do stand up. It's it's so good. So go and go to Thats Messed Up Live And there's a Lisa's website link that tells you where to go. And as always, I'm gonna hear I'm here to beg you for reviews and five stars and whatever.

I mean, I'm not even It's like we really rarely do that.

For the mount of YouTube and shit I listened to and the mount people ask me to subscribe.

I think we are very chill in our asks.

Yeah, and tell a friend, Tell a friend about the pod. We'd love some new listeners and people to people just constantly going how did I not find out about this? It's like, I don't know, it's been around for three years. So tell a friend, and what do you think. Let's get started. We've got a hot episode for you today. We're really excited. Let's get going.

We're starting down low in Hell's Kitchen, which kind of sounds like a lyric that would be in Hadestown.

It really would. I've lived in Hell's Kitchen, you know, do you have any memories?

Yes?

I worked in Hell's Kitchen for years and years. If you don't know New York. Hell's Kitchen is like the western part of like the forties in Manhattan, I would say Times Square, but to the west, so like ninth Avenue, tenth Avenue, eleventh Avenue outdide the water. And I worked out there for years, and I've had a lot of

But it was so funny. No, it's so cool. You made it work. Yeah, to stay home.

You ran, Yeah, you ran to the show and you made an entrance and they didn't know you were going to show up. No, they'd been texting me, They're like, what's up. We're so that's the opposite of dorky. That's opposite of dorky. That's cool.

So I guess I didn't fully sleep through.

I slept through the opening and the first probably half of the improv show.

But anyway, Hell's Kitchen's great.

There's another episode of SVU called just Hell's Kitchen that we've done right.

I feel like I there's also a Down Low, the Lowdowns. That's so funny.

This episode is like two SVU episodes merged together.

Yeah. I was gonna say this is more midtown. But did you go to Blockheads? I feel like you were a Blockheads?

Oh yeah, baby, when I was a page my page.

Friends from the Midwest loved Blockheads, so we would always go there and they had like good margarita deals or something like that.

I don't know if they were deals, but they were just like delicious giant with Corona bottles poured in. So let me set the scene. I I'm living in Hell's Kitchen. I just got to New York and this is I feel. It's an after five PM spot, Like it's surrounded by New York New York, like all the tall buildings. Everyone's at work, and then there's this courtyard and in it is Blockheads, and I just feel like I felt like the coolest girl in the world.

And is there that Blockheads is also really close to an off Broadway theater where I saw Avenue Q.

Wow, it just felt like I loved sitting outside there and I just it blew my mind of a Corona bottle in.

Yeah you know what I mean.

Wait, maybe where I saw Rock of Ages, not Avenue Q with Constantine Marulis, who famously has fucked many housewives anyways, Wait wait, no, Constantine Marulis from American Idol.

Sure, yeah, yeah, but who's he fucked in the housewife universe?

I believe lu Anne, and I believe maybe Ramona, Like there's like a couple of them he's.

Had sex with. I'll google it while you start. Okay, all right, I do love that.

What do we call a chuckle fucker for house swap cylinder? Okay, So anyways, this episode We're Here, We're Here, Season twenty one, Episode three, twenty nineteen, we get a Benson Noah walk and talk. She's on the phone. He's in a baseball tea and a giant backpack. And all backpacks are too big for kids. Why can't they just make smaller backpacks for kids. I don't understand. You just got to buy them, but why are people not buying it? Like why are

Brands or whatever? Yeah?

Yeah, yeah, Like get one of those for your fucking kid. So she's on the phone, she's discussing, she's discussing a case another one. So he waited three days to go to the er and he didn't report it. Uh, you know, so she gets it. She hangs up. Noah runs away, of course, causing trouble. Benson calls Finn to fill him in that there's another attack in Hell's kitchen.

Dun, dun. A black mail is tased very sad.

Finn is suited up with a giant collar on his shirt, and Finn already knows what the case is going to be.

Is he filing a complaint? And that's a no.

And Finn's like okay, So, like, what do you want us to do? Benson goes, well, you have a gay son, maybe he can help. So I kind of love that. But Ken does work at a gay crisis center, and Finn corrects her and goes LGBTQ, as Ken says, so Benson goes, yeah, yeah, just go talk to your gay son. So then she gets back to her own son, Noah, who famously bisexual, and drops the bomb. He goes, I don't like baseball. I think it's boring. I'm over it. He points to a jim. He goes, I want to

You know what I mean, Like him being like, oh, they're on the low. I don't know.

Am I being too Am I being too nitpicky on Finn right now?

But like, bro, no, it's also we've done You've already done episodes about this. We've literally already done episodes about this, Like you know.

What this is?

Yeah, it's it's just I just caught that and now I feel like I'm being too hard on Finn and I'm embarrassed. So he's like, well, hit me up when the men are here, and Ken's like, no, no, no, I'm their advocate, not yours. I'm not pushing them to talk to you, and Finn goes, okay, but if no one says anything, then this dude has no reason to stop. So now we cut to a famous singer. He's in a fashion hat. He's smiling with fans, he's taking pictures,

Okay.

So he's rushing him along though, and they get into a black suv, which is my favorite thing to do. So the manager is pissed about something on his phone and the singer's like, I actually don't want to deal with this, and the you know, the dude his name is Fish. He goes, this isn't going away, and the brother is sitting in the front seat and it's like, shut up, leave my brother alone. You're always bringing him down and worrying. And he's like, dude, that's my job.

He's like, tell your wife.

They say hi, And I felt I felt the familiarity and familial vibes in that. You know, this isn't a y Clef Jon type of manager situation. I feel, you know, the s guy cares I've lad. The driver not happy, but the star reassures them and he goes, come on, I want to go have some fun. So we're at an upbeat pop music bar, you know, music's playing, and a guy recognizes him and goes, you're Mathis. He's annoying, he's drunk. I don't like him. He wants a picture

How dare you not take a photo with me? You piece of shit?

Your song actually sucks, and then starts screaming that's Mathis, that's Mathis. Mathis is getting stressed. He runs out. He's walking through SVU coded streets. I would say, this is, you know, this is what we think of what we think of SVU. They're scaffolding and there's uniform cops with flashlights looking for someone, and the cop jokes like, hell, let's bet homeless or drunk lol, So then it's Mathis.

That's who they find. They find Mathis.

He's hurt, he's shaking, he's begging for help, and it cuts to the credits. So we open up on Barnes aka Garland AKA I don't know their Adam dem.

Barn He only got a season. He only got a season.

Honestly, who's the newest guy he's been on for a few I can't tell you his name right now, Oh, Vincenzo.

What's his name?

Danny? Want to say is Danny Zuko because that's what he looks. I mean, Tavia Taviano Pazzano is his real name, but like, I'm trying to think of what his fucking oh Velasco, fucking Velasco.

Yeah, so yeah, So it's Barnes and basically he's the only good boss that's ever respected Olivia and they kicked him out after one season.

It's just like, is it because.

He was good at his job and competent and empathetic and happy, like it's sick. So him and Benson and are discussing the case. Zero reports filed, so this is very hard. Benson goes, I know about the stats, but and he cuts her off and goes, oh, I will never care about stats.

That's not an issue for me. If stats go up, that's good.

It means people trust us enough to disclose, so that's really cool.

And he goes, but what do you need?

And she asks for manpower, a wider canvas, and security camp checks and a chat with hate crimes. He goes, uh uh, I'm beloved. If hate crimes had any information, they would tell me. Also, they're very spread then, so now he goes, but we can be proactive. Nothing will stop us, and she gets a ping at this moment on her phone. It's Rollin's there's another vic uh oh so we got to go get to Mercy Hospital. Benson and Fann are walking and the sun is hitting them,

It's cool. It's cool.

It looks like a four hundred dollars blazer minimum. And she's like some pop star math is something and Benson's shocks she knows exactly who that is, and unfortunately he was tased and a beer bottle was used on him. Benson is like, I thought he was straight, and Rollins is like, sure, but it was Hell's kitchen. You know he has a gay following. I don't know if you know he'll report it, or the manager or the brother. They're being very protective. I don't know what's going to happen,

I love him. I love him too.

But he explains that Mathis is not ready for a rape kit.

He is too traumatized.

But he is ready to talk and they promise to respect his privacy. He's laying in the hospital bed. He's not in good condition, but you know, he's shaken up. There's bandages everywhere, but he really likes his nurse and he calls the nurse good people. So I like him because usually I don't really love a fashion hat. But his spirit shines through. He said that you guys are good people as well. So he explains what happened. He was walking, he heard someone behind him, he felt a

But it happens so fast.

So then Benson brings up the gay angle about gay black men, and he's like, no, I'm not gay, but like, this is fucked. Someone would attack me because of the color of my skin and because like maybe I was gay?

What the fuck?

And he gets really shy and tired and just the fact of the world upsets him, so he doesn't want to talk anymore and he just goes, man, I went out for air.

That's it.

Like this is so fucked Finn gives him his card, they walk out, So Rollins caught something. We have a bar selfie hashtags summer sweat, so he did not walk straight home.

He went to a bar.

So they're just learning that information and they're gonna go talk to this asshole. And his theory is famous people, oh fans their whole lives, so you better be fucking nice. And Rollins is like, the bartender said you got aggressive and that you suck as a human, and he's like, no, I fucking hate a tourist. He's in the he's so deep in the closet. He's Narnia. I'm really liking the

Well, you get to Narnia the Lion, the Witch, and the wardrobe. So you go through the wardrobe or like the closet to get to it.

So okay, so it's called Lionwitch in the wardrobe and you go through to get to Narnia.

Well, it's the whole thing is called the Chronicles of Narnia, and one of them, yeah, I believe the first one was the Lion of the.

Witch in the wardrobe and it's like Christian right, there's like undertones.

I think it's evangelical. Yeah, probably.

I read it when I was really young, and I read one and was like, so I understand what it is, but I don't think it didn't link me in. I've never watched any of the movies or anything like that, but it did really penetrate the culture. Yeah, and this guy's saying it.

So Ronalds is like, okay, and that makes you mad, and he denies following him and he's like, listen, I went uptown to meet someone and we fucked. So I don't know what to tell you. And they're like, do you know his name? He goes no, but I can show you his grinder profile. I love that he is a slut. Okay, So there is a three way chat outside and it's a really super downtown. You could tell they were like buy all the courthouses and de Moore Barnes aka Garland. Again, this is going to confuse me

He breaks it down.

He says, you know, like our community is in trouble and we need to be there for them. So Benson Finan Rollins are watching this unfold on a big screen and they're like, hell, yeah, we didn't even know he was gonna come out. This is beautiful coming forward, he's doing interviews. Ken walks in with a man named Devon Thompson and he's there to disclose and they take him to the Blinds Wood Room and he was leaving a bar called Swank in Hell's Kitchen and he's low key.

That seemed weird? And he goes yeah, there's this one white guy.

One week he asked for a smoke and when he saw that it was menthol, he gave you know, he gave me a hard time and he goes, your wife, no, you smoke those, and Devon says, I got a bad vibe, so I went inside. So could it be this guy? So now Rollin's knock, knock. Benson hair blows in the wind as she walks to answer the door. So Rollin says, another guy agrees to talk to her, but she has to pretend to be a client. Benson then goes, this

I mean, I just.

Felt like this is the richest looking office I've ever seen on the show. It looked expensive marble, nothing like it. But they're also chatting right in the middle of this busy lobby of the most luxurious office I've ever seen. And it's like I thought this was a secret conversation. They're truly at the bottom of the stairs of the lobby of this giant office, Like you can't you take her to your like into your own office.

Can't you guys meet at a library.

I don't understand why this is even, this undercover operation is even.

Happening, with just how much he cares about the secrecy. I he didn't even have fake papers in his hand. But he goes, yes, someone did mention my wife and son and I do go every Tuesday. And he goes this guy he looked blue collar, dirty, reddish hair and he but he's like, I didn't see who tasted me. I just know the person who made a comment. And so now we're with this other guy and he has

And I know I gave you a pause. It took you a second. I did you think of Gigi Hidid first? Maybe? And then like and then it trickled down.

No, I honestly always think of miss Jadid because it's Careesi always calls her like, well, miss Hadid, that's like we gotta prosecute, you know, like and uh, I don't even know her.

I don't remember her first name, but I don't like her.

Well because they brought into more Barnes to be a good guy, and so they had to bring someone to be bad, and so it happened to be fucking bitch. So anyways, there's a timeline, there's a pattern, taser scaffolding, Tuesday, bars Hell's kitchen bottle. Okay, So Hadida is confused why the grand jury hasn't been heard yet, Like, excuse me, why isn't this moving along?

And they're like, well, the guys won't testify.

She goes subpoena them and they're like, okay, so these are humans and they live double lives and we need to protect their double life so Mathis and the other guys have different descriptions.

That's the only issue.

So these other guys that have come forward have a different description than Mathis.

Also, like what is she talking about? Like why isn't the grand jury heard? It's like with who there's no person, there's no suspect yet, Like aren't they just supposed to like find the suspect?

What are we talking about? Grand jury?

Dude, you caught it. Yeah, she is a fool. So now they're going to send in the Chief undercover and I love this. And he's the type. He's an upper crust black dude in a suit, so yeah, and he's hot as fuck, like he is about you know, he's about to get dicked down if he wants to. At this bar, Caares and Finn are drinking in the back watching and Caresee's like, holy shit, that's the fifth guy to flirt with him, and he's kind of jealous, and Finn says, Chief can pull and I like love this.

So he's a pro, and he has red hair.

He's white, he's tall, and then he says get home to the wife. And he's like, I'm that obvious, and he goes, well, maybe not to her burn she's why do we have to drag her into it? And he tries to leave and the guy calls him Cinderella, which I like, he does have a sense of humor. Okay, so he goes, what happens after midnight? He turned straight, Barnes shakes his head and walks out. So then this motherfucker takes a bottle from the bar with him and

So fuck all these gay dudes. What I can't go to the bars. Hell's Kitchen's my neighborhood before these people came here. And Rollins needs clarification if it's gay or black people, and red Ty Lawyer.

Is like, hey, pack up the tackle box. It's just sorry, go I'm not gonna get it straight.

It's just so.

Funny to me when these people are like Hell's Kitchen, like before these people came here. It's like, so the gay neighborhood in New York used to be the West Village classically, then it moved up and became Chelsea, but it stayed the West Village also like and then.

Chelsea also moved up and became Hell's Kitchen.

So now it's this entire chunk of the city that's become more expensive, like more people want to live there, like when the gay people, when gay people moved to your neighborhood. It gets better, is all I'm saying. So I don't know what this man is talking about.

The proof is in the pudding with I can't believe I said that, saying, did I just transfer? So like in Indiana when they passed one of their anti gay bills, like all of the like Mike Pence did it, and like Indiana is huge for conventions, and every convention canceled, Like Indiana lost billions of dollars from places not people not wanting to be there. And it's like your hatred is so like you don't even understand, you fucking idiot,

Like Hell's Kitchen didn't used to be a cool place to live.

Now it's so nice. It's like, I don't know about so nice. Let's relax, No, it is, it's getting nicer and nicer.

There's like I don't know, Look, maybe we that's an argument about gentrification. But this white man here, I don't think is being gentrified. I think he's just mad that gay people and people of color are coming into his old neighborhood. He's like it was. It used to just be a racist Italians around here. You pushed us all out.

You know.

Well, it's also like you didn't lay the bricks.

Yeah, you didn't do it. It's class.

This is a classic, classic, classic, So whatever. After that little exchange, Rollin says the bar genders said, you're a regular on Tuesdays. He goes, yep, that's after I do a urine test for my parle officer. I have some beers and Hadid Benson CREESI are all spying. And this dude does have a rap sheet that goes back to his childhood. He's obviously a hater and he is the stun gun bottle guy like we know it.

Hadid Is like his lawyer is too good.

We need more airtight evidence because he's gonna poke every hole he can. And let's get the lineup going with these three dudes. But the three dudes from the bar didn't even see him, so we can bring in Mathis. But Mathis's description didn't meet the other guys. And also the brother doesn't want him going in and feels like his brother needs a break. And matthis is on the balcony, he's looking out there's fans with signs. He's working on a new album. He's feeling good. They tell him that

Life is the right way.

There's a fedora, there's a caller, there's a red striped suit, and he is fucking up the lineup. He's going from number to number. He keeps changing his mind. He's falling apart. It's a wrap currsey. You know it's not good, but you know tomorrow brings another day. He walks fast with an attitude. You know he's stressed, but he has hope. He's shaken up and then Rollins has more news. On the drive over, he kept asking what number is the purp gonna be? And Carisey is explaining, how you know

Is this luck? You know what's going on here?

And for the client, there's a selfie of him from the baseball game. And even though he is good for the other assaults, mathis did poison the well now with his lies. So they bring him in and he's like, because my brother bought a taser, I'm a liar. This doesn't even make sense, and Creasy gas lights him, and then the lawyer goes, I'm sorry, but tasers are legal in New York State, which is great to know, honestly, and I'm buying.

One and it's and beer.

I'm gonna buy it all and he flips it and goes, you guys got the wrong guy, and now you're trying to put this on me. And I kind of like his perspective, and they're like, no, let's find out what we missed. He's like, well, maybe there's a copycat or two guys, and his lawyer goes, shut up. We came here to cooperate, and now it seems like he's a suspect and we'll be out of here. And Finn stops her and says, we need to get to the truth. He breaks down, his voice shakes. He's so angry and sad.

Do you think they're gonna be yours?

Huh, Rollins asks, and then she catches him in a moment where he spills that Mathis knew about the attack sooner and that's why he bought a taser for protection. So then Vlad the driver comes over and he's big as fuck and he goes, your brother said, don't talk to anyone, and he is so tall and looking at Rolin standing next to Lad is the funniest thing I've ever like. It is like Bruno Mar's and Taylor Swift.

He's like, listen, I.

Was shocked about the gay element, you know, because he comes from a church family, so there is a lot of shame and Rollins is like, yeah, but he was brave bad enough to like come out and be himself, and the manager goes, that's because he has integrity, and they're like, well, we don't think this happened. Is your client desperate enough to stage an attack? And the manager, you know, is like, I thought he was really attacked. I don't know about this or have anything to do

Damn, damn, damn, damn.

Yeah, so yeah, they didn't think that NYPD would catch him. They just haven't met SVU detectives before. Rollin shakes her head in discuss. She's very upset about this. And now we go to another set of fans holding signs in a circle around him and another hat. Baby this guy, I mean, he's spending all of his money on hats. The jacket is purple, the hat is brown, and he's talking about how he was attacked and the NYPD asked him to come forward and it was at a great

It's truly sickening.

Yeah, but she sarcastically says thank you, captain, and they fight like this case is taking too long in the press, and Benson's like, you're the one who pushed Caresy to take this on. And then Careese has to stop these screeching women, and he sees both of their points of view, and then Finn is like, listen, we need to keep working the case and we will get there. She's gonna

Why do this?

Yeah, the door shuts, Benson's ready to talk shit about her. Benson walks over to Garland and says, she is not my boss. He says, but if she calls her boss and he calls my boss, then we're fucked. Benson says, I don't care about her exploding clock, and I'm not letting this go and we are doing this, and she storms out, angry teen style. Back at work, none of the men want to come in or run their rape

And they all stare off.

So then Devon goes Ken told me I left something out that might be helpful. So he says, the first time that he met Miran, he was out there smoking and you know, he left us out that they followed him back into the bar, they got into the bathroom that the guy, the bad guy, got on his knees and unzipped his pants and it was very consensual, and he knows he's repressed and he really can't fully let go. But you know, he went to back to the bar

And it was not the same night as the assault.

He ran into him a month later and he got out of there because he's like, I don't I don't like it. The photo show, like you know, I wasn't happy about this. So now they're at rikers and they're going to try to make a deal with the guy, and this lawyer laughs at Creasy's face, and Creasy says, forget mathis, we don't need him anymore.

We have new evidence. Duh. Can't you tell? I'm cocky?

And there's a photo of them together, and Caresey brings up the bathroom blowjob and he denies it and calls him a son of a bitch, and the lawyer's like, okay, you say it's consensual, so who cares? And he goes, oh, no, for sure.

I think. I mean, I don't care. I think a jury wouldn't care.

But you know they are gonna hear it too, And your farmer client knows that right, and the farmer is getting angry, and Creasy plays games with the public.

Are you just calling him a farmer? Is there like anything about him in here being a farmer? Or you just like that he looks like like you just that he looks like a farmer.

No.

They said he was rural, that he had paint on his boots, that he had he had the flannel.

They said rural.

They said rural. I feel okay, So okay, farmer, they said, thug rural, a rural man who lives in who grew up in Hell's Kitchen, but Hell's Kitchen was different because now he only comes in to go to his parole to piss.

Oh it used to be Irish Mob, I thought because the movie that movie that came out that I guess was a bomb because it was Elizabeth Moss, Melissa McCarthy and Tiffany Hattish and it did not do well. Okay, So Carezy plays games with like public trial info and then threatens jail rape. You know, we love when our SVU detectives do that, and it's just a crazy trope

That's rare.

He's getting sview a white shield and that's a worker that's not a detective.

Okay, do you know who this is going to be? Is this cat? Is this? Is this before cat comes in or something? Oh? I don't know. I didn't look it up.

Sorry guys, But he believes they will be great mentors to this white shield. And Moran did plead guilty, and miss Sidis also said thank you so and the guy is getting seven years for sexual abuse one. He wants to know what changed his mind and Finn goes, why are you not you know, don't ask, don't tell? How about that? But he is down to take the swin. He doesn't need to know any information. He's happy about this. He does want to go after mathis but Benson says, no,

Dick Wolf, Baby, Yeah, this is like they I think they wanted to incorporate the fact that Ryan Buggle is a dancer in real life. So that's where this whole storyline came from, one hundred percent.

But then they didn't give us enough like has there even been a recital, like you tea yeah, yeah.

He does a hip hop dance. He does a hip hop dance. We see it, okay, because I don't remember that, because.

I'm like, okay, you tease this, We're excited he's gonna bring his Broadway skills, and then this happens.

I'm so annoyed. Yeah.

So when I lived in Hell's Kitchen, there was I wish I remember the name, but there was like a super super old Irish pub I would go.

To sometimes for like takeout. Oh yeah yeah.

So then I built a whole reality in my head about it being an Irish fishing village back in the day. So I don't know if I made it up where I learned that, unfortunately, So I'm sorry about that, all right, and no worries.

Thank you for the recap. Guys, don't go anywhere when we come back. I think you know what this is based on. All right, let's get into it, because this is a very recent crime obviously, but like I just feel like I blocked out some of the details, so I was actually kind of interested in going back into this.

Obviously.

This episode is based on the fake hoax attack on Jesse Smollett, who is an actor and singer, and I'm just finding out started out his career in the Mighty Ducks. I didn't realize he was in the Mighty Ducks, and that's pretty crazy. He did a lot of stuff as a kid like Mighty Ducks, like child modeling, acting stuff like that. And then twenty fifteen to twenty nineteen his star really started to rise and he started to gain attention for his role on the hit show Empire with

Struggling for the I mean the classic living single friends of it all. Ah, yes, yes that as well.

Yes, I mean for sure. So Jesse Smallett is gay in real life. He came out publicly on Ellen in twenty fifteen, so life is going pretty good for him. He's on this hit show, but I guess things were not popping off enough for his liking. On January twenty second, twenty nineteen, if we all remember, like a one year before the pandemic in Chicago.

In the city of Chicago.

So for the first thing that happens is on January twenty second, a letter gets sent to Empire Chicago studios where they filmed episodes, and it's addressed to Jesse Smallett.

And it's a stick figure hanging from a tree and there's.

A gun and it's in like magazine Ransom Note, my favorite murder font and it said Smallett, Comma, Jesse, you will die and it said maga. So there was also white powder in the envelope that was later discovered to be tile and all.

So that's a weird thing that happens.

They get that, he gets this weird, vaguely threatening letter by somebody who's cutting out magazine clippings.

A week later, it's January twenty ninth.

Jesse Smollett tells people that at around two am, he was coming out of a Subway sandwich at two in the morning. I didn't realize subway was open like that. I didn't know Subway was doing the late night hours. And he was attacked in the Chicago neighborhood of Streeterville, which I had never heard of. And when I googled it, it looks like it's kind of like nice right by the water neighborhood.

Maybe you know more I don't. It sounds like Gold Coast Downtown down like Vibe.

It looks like it's part of not Miracle Mile, but Miraculous Mile or something like that.

Yeah, there's a Viagra Triangle area that's the Gold Coast any like that.

Yeah, I do like that.

Anyway, I googled it on Google Maps, but it seems like it whatever, that's what it's called Streeterville, But it's like a central area of Chicago. Probably touristy too, I don't even know, but he said he was on the phone with his manager, Frank Gatson at the time.

Yeah, it's very touristy.

It's my Navy Pier downtown beach for sure, gotcha on the water. Yeah, but it's January in Chicago, so it's fucking freezing.

You're at a subway at two am. I don't know what's going on, and maybe he's been partying, who knows, but he is on the phone with his manager, and it's like, shout out to your manager for picking up the phone at two am.

That's wild.

And then when you're on Empire, Yeah, people are going to answer when you call it.

Yeah, I guess.

So he says two men in masks attacked him and used quote unquote racial and homophobic slurs, and one of them allegedly yelled, this is Maga country.

Honey, No it's not. It's Chicago. Yeah.

Well, that's so funny because when I first heard this story, I go, wait, where was it?

It was in Chicago?

Like I just was like not buying it immediately because I was just like, maybe if there's a convention going on, a Republican convention happening in Chicago at the time, but on a regular at two am, there's maga people roaming the streets of Chicago.

That was not jibing.

No, there's definitely maga people in Chicago. They could also be out late at night. My issue is you could be maga in Chicago, but it ain't Maga country, Honey, you are not, you know what I mean, Like there are maga people there, but Chicago is definitely blue as fuck, Like.

Yeah, and I guess I mean.

The difference between a person that votes for Trump and a person that says this is Maga country is like they're two different kinds of people, Like, you know, like someone being like, this is Chicago.

We don't.

Like It's like I'm not even doing the right accent. Like nobody's like, hey, this is maga country. Get the hell out of here, you know. So he also said that these attackers quote poured an unknown chemical substance end quote on him during the attack, and he said that the attackers were white and that they hit, kicked, and bit him.

You don't want to lie about a bite.

Yeah, you don't want to be doing that. We are going to be getting the dental records.

Yeah.

The Chicago pat also reported at one point during the attack that the attackers put a rope around his neck. So he said he fought off the men and that his manager, Gatson, called the cops at two thirty in the morning, which was Smalllett was pissed him out because he did not want the cops involved. When the cops arrived at two forty, he still had the white rope around his neck. He later admitted to removing the rope and then putting it back on before the cops arrived,

I just wanted you to see it or whatever.

But I could understand you being like, oh, I didn't want to like touch the crime scene.

Who knows.

Smollett said that the attack may have been motivated by his criticism of the Trump administration, and he thought it also could have been connected to that weird threatening letter that he got at work the week before. So he was treated at Northwestern Memorial Hospital and was determined to be in quote unquote good condition. So now it's January thirtieth, it's the next day, and I remember this day. You could not scroll social media without seeing this guy's face.

We don't treat him like a criminal.

And then they say that they won't keep asking for the phone, and Jesse later said I have private pictures and videos and numbers, my private emails, my private songs, my private voice memos to explain his resistance to handing over the phone. So then it's February first, the next day, and Jesse Smollett speaks out for the first time and he goes, I'm okay, and he says, quote unquote, the outpouring of love and support from my village has meant more than I will ever be able to truly put

End quote.

Chicago ped releases photos of two people of interests that they are looking for. On February second, Jesse Smollett does a concert that has been pre planned and he talks about it on stage, and he's on stage going just because there's been a lot of stuff said about me

What?

Like?

So about two weeks go by, it's Valentine's Day and the two persons of interest are arrested and interviewed and they are Nigerian brothers named O Ba Binjo and Abimbola Osundairo. And there they go by Ola and Abel and their brothers from Nigeria, and they'd been previously background actors on Empire and they had gone to the gym with Jesse Smollett before, so why do they want to talk to these guys?

What's going on?

They're also black, they're not white the way that Smollett reported his attackers were. And this is the same day, the day that they get taken in is the same day that Jesse Smalllett goes on Good Morning America and is saying through tears that like, gay people have to learn how to fight when they're attacked and stuff like that. Like he's like giving a tearful interview on GMA. So the episode's definitely stealing from that because you know, Mathis

Police was used in the attack.

And apparently they had asked for a Maga hat but the store didn't sell those. So in the brother's financial records, it's also revealed that they've purchased rope, the rope that was found around his neck at a hardware store over the weekend of January twenty fifth. So I remember hearing about this and being like, did these guys attack him?

What's going on?

Like you're just putting this together, like never imagining what the truth of it is. So then the next day, Jesse Smollett turns himself in and he gets arrested. And guess who he hires? Lisa Mark Garretton.

How did I know? O? God, how did I know?

So?

Yeah, Mark Garrigos is this famous lawyer.

He's literally represented celebrities like win Onna, writer, Michael Jackson, all kinds of people. But then he also represented Peterson, he represented the Whitewater woman, Susan McDougall, Gary kandit the guy who.

Was wanted in the Chandra Levy case.

So he is like as close to like a Robert Kardashian, you know, as we have still alive, or like these sort of like Alan Dershowitz.

I guess too.

They're like guys that are like famous lawyers that we have. So Police Superintendent Eddie Johnson said at a press conference that Smollett quote took advantage of the pain and anger of racism to promote his career. And it's alleged that he paid these two brothers thirty five hundred dollars to

And now the cops are deeply involved.

So the day after this happens, he is suspended from Empire on February twenty second. A few days later, the check he used to pay the brothers is found and it is dated January twenty third, and it says, quote five week nutrition slash workout program and in parentheses don't go and don't go is a music video that he was planning to shoot, and he wanted these brothers to

I mean, the string of evidence is overwhelming.

Yeah.

In March, he pleads not guilty to sixteen counts of disorderly conduct.

I didn't realize all of this.

Two weeks later, after an emergency court appearance, all the charges against him are dropped his lawyer releases a statement saying, quote, he was a victim who was vilified and made to appear as a perpetrator end quote. The mayor of Chicago, though, Ram Emmanuel is like dragging him and is like, you've hurt Chicago's reputation. And then the prosecutor named Joe Maggots, who is the one who dropped the charges?

Ram a manual the balls on that fucker, Yeah, because yeah, fuck him.

Well, the prosecutor who's the one that dropped the charges. This guy, Joe Magatz told CBS he thinks Small is guilty, but he dropped the charges because Jesse Smallett forfeited his ten K bond and did community service. I'm like, what, Like, that's what happens. You can just like let your bail money, your bond money go away and do some like pick up trash in the park, and you can just your criminal charge can go away.

Anyway.

Maybe they thought they couldn't prove it, Maybe they thought it was too much of a media circus.

Who knows.

They also ordered him to pay one hundred and thirty thousand dollars to cover the cost of police officers looting overtime worked on the case. Officers say that they spent a lot of time reviewing video and evidence that could have been spent on other investigations.

This is not the only crime happening in Chicago, you know.

But a year later, in February twenty twenty, Dan Webb pops on the scene. He's a special prosecutor for the case, and he's like, oh bitch, I'm reopening this shit, and he wants to charge Jessie Smallllett with six counts of lying to police. So another year and a half goes by before this trial even starts. It's November of twenty twenty one now, and authority, I think COVID stopped slowed his case down a lot. A lot of different things were happening. Also, I think things are just fucking slow

In those days.

In that day, of January thirty, when his name was fucking everywhere. Sure, but why don't you write a pilot? You know, like, there's other ways.

There are ways to make yourself more valuable or get more fame or money if you're already on a show like Empire, outside of staging an.

Attack, Yeah, it's like, go date somebody famous.

Yeah, like I don't know, Yah, get in there, you're hot, Go get with somebody. Have your publicists set up a fake relationship for two weeks, Like that'll help you both, you know. So on December ninth of twenty twenty one, after one day of deliberation, a jury finds him guilty of five of the six counts of disorderly conduct. I don't know if lying to the police counts under disorderly conduct or whatever, but those are the counts I'm reading about.

So five out of the six he gets proved.

Disorderly is like everything where they can't really put something on it, like you.

Cause the mess, you made a scene. Yeah.

Each count of disorderly conduct is up to three years, so if served consecutively, that could be fifteen years in jail. But given that he had a clean record, thought he'd get way less three months later, March of twenty twenty two, he finally gets sentenced, and his sentence is one hundred and fifty days in jail. That is five months. That

So I don't know, it just sucky. He really thought he got away with it. And then you know Webby came to town.

Yeah, and then the judge, James Lynn told him during sentencing, quote, You've turned your life upside down by your conduct and shenanigans end quote. I just I like a judge bringing Shenanigans into the mix. And this dude is still sticking to his story. He's not even saying I got caught up in fame. I made a mistake. I thought this would be a social media stunt. Like I don't know, I feel like there were ways he could.

Have like apologized. He's like, I'm innocent.

I was really attacked, and it's like, dude, what are you talking about. So when they took him out of his sentencing, he put his fist in the a and yelled, quote unquote, I am not suicidal. So he was trying to portray, you know, a strong front. He was released after six days from jail because he was appealing the verdict. I didn't realize that you just got to be out on appeal, but I think that probably depends on what your crime is or whatever. In the appeal, his lawyers

The vote was two to one.

They argued this appeal in front of three judges and one judge did dissent, but his appeal was rejected. And this was in December of twenty twenty three, so just last month, and his legal team said, quote, we are preparing to escalate this matter to the Illinois Supreme court armed with a sub stantial body of evidence end quote. And at this point, I'm kind of like just finished through the five months. Man, you were sentenced two years ago.

So I did not watch it.

But I did watch some of their promotional interviews they were giving on like local Fox affiliates, and they said that he wanted to be a poster child for activism. So it's like another thing. It's like a little bit of this is arrogance. It's like he didn't just want to be more famous. He wanted to be like the face of a movement or something like you know, I'm like the strength of like you know, gay activism, like

Not one friend, not one person said I don't think this is a good idea, dude, Or do you think he only talked to the brothers.

I think he maybe only talked to the brothers as far as my research goes, Like I did not see a lot of stuff about witnesses being called or people that said, oh yeah, he told me about this plan or anything. I think that's why he's been able to keep maintaining his innocence because the Brothers are the only ones. So it's like, well, what are you saying that the brothers attacked you and you couldn't tell that they were

Like what is going on?

Like it's just like you're caught, but it feels to me like the performance that el Steven Taylor gives in this episode where mathis is just like all the evidence is in front of him, but he's still.

Like, no, something happened.

Something happened, and it's like like you just believe your lie and to the death. I guess because like admitting fault is too difficult. I don't know, but these guys basically telled these Fox DC reporters like or morning show hosts. Really is kind of what they were as they're promoting their docuseriies that he just approached them in the gym and was like, I want you guys to beat me up, and they were like what he was like, I want you to fake beat me up?

And they thought it was just going to be for social media too, so whatever.

I think they served some jail time as well, but they have a podcast so they just talk about current events and sports, so you can enjoy that if you want. They're working on a book and a children's book, so if you've been dying to read a children's book to your children authored by two men that were part of a huge hoax, your time is coming soon.

These men have a children's book coming out just a bunch of Bozo's clowns. Yeah, yeah, so far.

I mean it's like the other thing, too, is like you could just like, if you want to be an activist. It's like, I'm sure you're getting hate on your Instagram. You're an openly gay black man that's on television, go like arrange some press shit where you go on and you talk about the hate you get on social media or like whatever. You know, like there's other ways that you can like where I'm sure you actually have been victimized.

I think this guy's just filled with bad ideas.

I mean, yeah, for this to be the way to get a little more attention is wild.

Get on cameo I don't like.

And that empire is going to give you more money based on like the fact that you've been attacked.

I don't know. That's weird. It's the worst idea.

It's like when Elon Musk brought that like sync into Twitter, it was like, what's.

Going it's up there with that. Let's make a list of bad ideas. Those two things are on it for sure. But we have an amazing interview. I loved this interview so much, so please stay right where you are and listen. Our guest today is a triple threat, an actor, a singer,

Your character a fashionista, and I did look through your instagram and then I did stalk your girlfriend's and I really went in there. You're a fashion person in real life too. Did you bring that into your character? Did they have all that picked out? It looks like you like a hat? What's yeah? Tell me about all that.

I do enjoy? And you know what's funny is they did the same thing.

They actually when I got cast, they actually went through my Instagram and we're like, we're going to put you in stuff that we think that you already liked to wear anyway, So they like found me all these hats from Goren Brothers, which is like my favorite hatshop that uh no, longer exists in many locations now. But they went through and UH just kind of gathered my style and put that into the character. So I didn't really have to have much input. They just I mean, and

They went all out.

Did you take anything?

I wanted to so bad?

I gotta.

I got a hat out of it.

I got a hat out of it, okay, nice like an SPU had.

Not like not like a Mathis brooks hot got it.

No, no, no.

I took home some of the like the records and like the little trophies that they had set up all over his apartment and stuff.

They let me have some of that, so.

I like memento. So I like that. Well I see behind you that.

Yeah, stupid.

So many animals, well, I mean the animals obviously do we stick toss to you or do we go to lion king?

This is what I was gonna ask you, because when our podcast first started, we got a bunch of messages from people that were like, you should book l Steven

Was I there you were?

You were moved on?

Okay, Okay, I didn't know if I was took some time off in April, but I wish I would have known that I.

Checked the program and everything, because we were like in the process of trying to like get you at that point.

So I was like, that is totally there, he is.

That is so funny.

Yeah, and then I was just wondering, like, because you seem to have this like very eclectic career, like you're burlesque guy. You you're a Mufasa and the Lion King on and off, I guess, and then you but for a long time, and then now you're playing this like pop star who's dated Halsey and Arianna Gonde and is like this hog. So like I'm just interested in like you know, tell us a little bit more about your background and everything.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm sure that all the people that you talk to, like performers are kind of jack of all trades, and so it's like that's what you you know, you kind of make your end up making your living doing all sorts of things, but less actually like I got into like as a just kind of as a passion. My girlfriend and I or now

And we met doing that.

We were the top two fundraisers, and she had already dabbled in it, and I discovered it through her.

It just kind of fell in love.

It's like there's this like old school art form that you know, it's like on the mostly performed on the Lower East Side, you know, of Manhattan's in New York, in New York at least, but it's so different from the characters that I get to play on stage and on TV. So I found I found that and that just kind of just like quickly became like a passion for me. But yeah, I've been doing linking for it on and off for the last eighteen years.

So yeah, so it's.

I mean, I've been moved foster for the last nine but yeah, I joined it eighteen years ago.

You're like a very ageless person. Yeah, poll tell you it's.

Like this gray, I feel like I have the filters on the zoom, you know what I mean, you can't see the so you can't see the gray popping.

But yeah, I am getting my gray covered Friday.

No, because like they had you play this character too, who was probably supposed to be like twenty four.

I mean, like right, I think he's supposed to be really young.

He was supposed to be young, and it's I mean, it's interesting because it's like when I went in for it, my son was nineteen, So it's like it's like he should have been planted it, you know what I mean.

That's what I was thinking when I was watching it, because you had told us my son's graduating high school, and when I was watching it, I was like I cannot or maybe college?

Was it college? At your son just graduated?

He graduated college? Yeah?

Yeah, and I was like, I can't believe this guy I'm watching as a college age kid because you just like look like a teen heart throb.

Oh well, thank you. The camera's crazy.

But well, this is what I wanted to ask you too, Like tell us about the process of going in for this s few because you'd obviously been on Broadway for eighteen years.

I'm you'd probably auditioned for s for you before, right.

I had.

But you know, the first time that I auditioned for su I was like in my actual early twenties, and it was I mean, it was wrong. It's like as soon as I flashed sea, like I was getting called in for a lot of like you know, like the thugs that you know, the guys who did it and you know, those kinds of those kinds of roles. But it's like as soon as I smile, it's like, I'm completely not that guy, or at least not what they want for.

Those particular shows.

So this role came up many years later, and I didn't do like the first round of auditions, like when they called me in, which I didn't know that they had already been auditioned in the role. But I went in and it was already the network audition, so you know, everybody, all the suits were there, you know, everybody was there. To the bus Field who died, who directed, it was just there. And I mean his directing style is so crazy.

That's so cool.

Timothy Bussfield is actually an actor that was in an SVU episode that we just covered a few weeks ago, Russian Brides. He's the guy whose girlfriend gets you know, kidnapped or whatever. So yeah, so I bet he likes to improve because he's also like an actor and he's like let's just see how we feel.

But it also is that's rare for SVU. You're the first person we've heard that from. Everyone says, it's like very fast and you got to you gotta get in and get out and just be on your mark, and so this is pretty this is new.

Yeah, it was.

It was.

It was wild, and like I said, I didn't and I had heard that as well, so I didn't expect that to carry on into the episode.

But I mean, we improved the interview.

It was very much like he was being Oprah Winfrey and I was sitting there and none of the questions were on the page, Like we just chatted for at least like a good fifteen minutes and we were just going like an actual interview.

So that was really cool.

Well, speaking of the hospital scene, so someone told us that in the makeup and hair trailer there like Iced Tea's rules of acting, and one of the rules is don't stand if you can sit, don't sit if you can lay down. And I did like seeing you lay down in the hospital bed talk to Iced Tea, and I bet he was proud of you that day.

You know, I did. I did.

I was not aware of that I'm glad that I did him proud though, But it's interesting. You know, it was like you shoot this, you shoot these things like completely out of sequence and stuff, and it's like, you know, this character like essentially just got raped, so he can't really sit down, you know what I mean. So it was like there was that whole thing going into that. Yeah, it was intense. It was intense, So I'm glad I was laying down too.

Yeah, And like I spent a lot of time with Iced Tea. I feel icya heavy episode.

Yeah, it was, And he's super cool and you know, off camera, like we chatted.

About his uh uh. I mean, I'm a big fan of.

His music obviously, so we talked about you know, him touring and like you know and all this stuff.

So everybody on set.

Was I didn't know what to expect, but everybody was so warm and welcoming and just like just completely cool.

No problems with me, That's awesome.

Problems. Yeah, I mean Marishka tails.

Honestly, I was most nervous.

I mean I'm sure like most people are most nervous to work with her, but I mean she came in and she was like I heard dream Lion King.

I just went to Lion King. I know this person.

I know that person, like she's a Broadway baby, she loves Broadway.

Yeah, she was, you know, naming all these people.

We had like so many friends in common, and like one of my friends was like, you gotta get a picture with Mariska And I was like, this is so weird, Like I don't know, like I'm in a hospital like hospital gown with like you know these things. I don't want to ask her for one. And she was like do you want to get a picture? Like can we get a picture together? And I was like can. We literally crawled in the hospital bed with me. So it was like it was so help I was like.

I love it.

Risk is in my bed.

You're like spooning with Olivia Benson. Not so fun.

I know, it's so crazy.

Ah yeah, because I was gonna ask about that like lineup scene where you're like.

I guess it's number three.

No wait, like because that's you got like all the heavy hitters in the room with you. They're all like right behind you, Like how was shooting that?

I mean that was wild too, you know what I mean? Because it's like all of it.

I feel like you tread this really thin line of trying to over characterize the actual situation itself. And I mean I spent a lot of time and I'm sure we'll get to that, but spent a lot of time like watching all the Jesse Smilette stuff like going you know, going into that, and it's like I just didn't want it to be a caricature. And that's what it kept, you know, Like I was like, I feel like we're walking a really thin line here, but it's like, you know,

It's like I didn't get that. Well, no, I hear what you're saying.

And I actually didn't get that, but I hear what you're saying, because like it could easily be that way, but I thought you kept it really ambiguous.

Like I was like, does this guy know he's lying?

Like there's like the part where ic Tea comes out and goes, he really believes this happened. Like you did a really good job I think of not turning it into a cartoon at all, because I was like, does this guy.

Know he did anything wrong?

Like he's pretty positive that he's done the right thing here on multiple levels, you know. Like so I thought that was a really interesting part of this episode.

I'm not are really emotional scenes too, I'm with Cara where I didn't even though I've seen it a bunch of times. I kept going back and forth on how I felt, Yeah.

Cause it was like do we hate this guy or do we like this guy? Like it sounds like he made something up. But also like at the end when I think Careesi goes, something did happen to you? Like so it's like we do think this guy is a victim in some way, and a victim of like stardom and trying to come out in a world that might not accept that the way he wants. And you know, there was like a lot of levels and layers to it.

I thought, thank you for that, because I feel like it is and I mean, that's what I want to going into it, like it is layered, because I feel like the situation itself, it's just a really real situation, especially in the black community. It's like, especially black men who grew up in the church, which is most of us, right, homosexuality and like gay anything, you know what I mean, Like even if it's not gay, if it's just affiliated with being anything other than the man's.

Man is very found upon.

And so as a result, you do have a lot of black men who are living in you know, who are living in the closet, and you know, have experienced things that they haven't talked about, and that does kind of bleed into what the truth of all of these situations kind of end up being, you know what I mean.

Yeah, what did your research on Jesse Smollett? How did it inform your performance an episode? What you used or not, or how you felt about it, you know, kind of whatever you want to comment on.

I tried to take his situation for what it was.

It would have been really easy to do what I feel like he did, which was, like you know, when he made his News Round and like all of those cycles, I think that he didn't do himself like any kind of favors, And there is a little bit of that also in Mathis, But I feel like Jesse was already like his motives for it, I feel like were completely fame based him, kind of like doing something that he thought was going to give him more clout in the black community, the gay community, the political sphere.

Like whatever.

I think math Is kind of got caught up in the idea of oh shit, I'm going to be outed. You know, he grew up in the church, like all of these things. I think it came out of more of a fear his thing. So it's like trying to straddle the line of like, you know, I know where this where this source material is coming from. But it's like, I don't think that they are the same. I think that, you know, like there are similarities, but I don't think

That just kind of spiral out of control.

Yeah, it's like a really great example of how the show does just sort of tweak a real story because, yeah, Jesse Small it was out years before his thing happened, so it's a different story, but there are similarities, and you're right, it's like the motivations I think were very different of these two people.

Yeah, did you watch the episode?

I did watch it. It's always weird watching yourself back. I just had such a good experience and it just feels like, I mean, it feels like when I watched it back, and I watched it because I hadn't I hadn't watched it in a long time, and I watched it like a couple of days ago just to kind of refresh my memory on this, and it was a really good time and like a lot of my friends

Yeah, you know they did Revenge of the Nerds together.

Yes, Oh my gosh, I didn't know Timothy was in that. I knew your manager was in it.

Oh my god.

Yeah, he played Poindet sir.

So it was like I was geeking out over that, and it was like, you know, kind of reliving all the things I made them do the Revenge of the Nerds rack with me, like in the car, like while we were going while we were going to location. So yeah, I watched the episode. There's some things that I would do differently. Yeah, I mean, I was happy with the overall.

But that's the.

Thing that I'm most proud of is I feel like it was kind of nuance and we didn't lean into just kind of over dramatizing what this very real situation is.

You know.

Yeah, now I'm gonna change directions here. Yeah, through my stocking on the internet, I did see it seems like you love Disney.

Listen. I wouldn't say that I'm a true Disney adult.

They were coordinated outfits. There is a coordinate outfit for every day that you were there.

And I'm about to go there. It's going to be worse this year, so I go there.

I went there last year for the Festival the Arts, which is like this thing that happens over three months at Cot. One of the things that they do is this Disney on Broadway concert series and last year was my first time doing it. But I don't know if you guys know what Disney bounding is, but that is when like you dress in the suggestion of a Disney character.

Oh oh, that's definitely a Mickey and Minnie. You know.

So my fiance is a big nerd and like you saw that, we love fashion and stuff. So she wanted to bound every day and she kind of made me do it.

Last last time.

But now I'm we're packing for it right now, and there's like it's it's stupid. There's there's too much going on it, so just wait.

Do you get to choose the outfits or is it mostly or fiance It picks the character or the character, like are you like, oh I really want this one or not?

In regular life, like we coordinate, like that's our thing is like we coordinate all of our outfits, which is a little gross, but for this, yeah, she kind of it's these things and so then I go and get the outfit for I'm going to.

Play this character. So you're going to play this character. D d dada dada. So we do it that way.

So yeah, she does most of the coordinating and then I just kind of follow along for this because.

You go deep, I mean, Kara.

They were the Hummingbird and Raccoon from Pocahontas.

Whoa deep guys, she's an Instagram detective for sure. Well it was also they were all really good and excited. I liked looking at it, you know, it was it was cool.

Yeah, we're doing buzz light Year and the Aliens from the End of Aliens. This year we're doing, Uh, I am Princess Tiana and she's going as I don't I can't remember who she's going as for from Princess and the Frog.

But yeah, we're going we're going deeper.

So like the bounding thing is like your outfit will like be giving buzz light year, but it's not like a buzz light your costume.

Yeah.

Correct, Well I just learned a fact.

You're not allowed to as an adult dress as a character because you might confuse children.

Oh got it, yeah, correct, Yeah, it has to be a little nod. Yeah, just a nod. Love that. Yeah. And so are you performing every night when you're doing that or you're just going for fun?

I performed two days on and then like two days off. We alternate with two other couples. This year, I'm doing it with Ashley Brown, who was the original Mary Poppins on Broadway. So we're a duet and we have like a cycle of forty minutes that we do three times a day, two days on and like two days off. So and then when we're not performing, then we are in the parts.

Do you have a VIP bracelet or what like, do you have to wait in line?

It's no, it's kind of it's kind of embarrassing, honestly because it's like they do give you this VIP guide and you know they'll shut down the ride, like if I'm sure that there are certain people like if Beyonce goes, you know what I mean, they got it, like you know, scooter her through the pack and then like shut down the ride and she goes. But it's we have that kind of access. It's a completely different experience if you've never done that and I learned.

I don't know how closer this is or not.

But there's like Facebook groups of like families who get together and they're like we're gonna we're like a family of three and we're a family of four. So if anybody wants to go, have these on like a VIP guide, because it just makes the experience like completely different. Yeah, just FYI if you guys ever go there.

And then sorry to take it away from Disney, but you recently performed at Carnegie Hall. I saw on your Instagram. That's exciting.

Yeah.

I host this show twice a year.

So my background is in early childhood education, top pre school for three years.

Back in Indiana.

So this is like melding all of the worlds because there's this wonderful program at Carnegie Hall called Musical Explorers, and they bring in three like major artists that play completely different styles of music, and I'm the host of the concert.

I mean it's four kids. Like this year we had this.

Guy Kialani from Hawaii has like three Grammys, this guy who's an Iraqi folks singer, and then a guy who plays Dominican roots music who's also like a Grammy Award winner. So and then just talk about how music, you know, music connects all these cultures and stuff like that.

So yeah, I do that twice a year. So that's ready though.

And you hosted do you also sing a little bit?

Or yeah I do?

Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

And you did The Electric Company, like forty plus episodes of The Electric Company. That makes sense, right then that's your childhood education stuff all coming together.

The dig Indeed, yeah, I didn't really do I didn't really do too much of that. It's like, I don't know if you guys watched that particular show, but it was a reboot of the original, so they kind of had like a different little theme where it's like these kids were part of the electric company and their hangout was the Electric Diner. One of my kids was in the electric company and I owned the Electric Diner, which

Who are you know, he's a friend as well, so.

They made it cool to learn, you know what I mean, like they were doing yeah right, yeah, yeah, no.

Lin Manuel's behind like three of the PBS kids shows that my friend that my that my kids watch, that my friends watched them. They're my friends that I had them. He's like everywhere. You can't escape lin Manuel.

Nah, you can't turn on the TV without seeing his name.

Kudos.

I love how this went from from Law and Order SPU to the most like the most Innocent of Innocence and PVS kids shows.

It's like we're a spectrum here on the show.

I'm on, Arthur, that's a full soircle moment, you know what I mean.

Yeah, innocence taken to innocence draft Yeah.

Yes, yeah, no, Indie, I mean that's kind of like it is so funny to me, Like mursh Cargata is such a big Broadway person, and she gets all these Broadway people on the show. So all these people like by Day or just like in The Music Man or Lion King or these.

Like feel good musicals.

And then it's like, come on the show and be a victim, you know, come on the show, like you know.

It's like and you you kind of feel like it's it's I mean, for the longest time, it's like been the right of passages. Like you're not a real New York actor until you do yeah, a Law and Order. So I was like, maybe I'm not a real New York actor for being here for a nineteen years.

Well you waited for the right moment because you got this big episode where you're the star.

You know, like you're in like almost every scene. It feels like, so.

You know, and it was dope, and we recorded a song that was cool. They wrote a song. I really love how immersive they made it. And they made mathis like this because he's annoying. Really like, I feel like even if none of this would happen, like he would be like the kind of person that you cringe, like, did you cringe at anyway he's doing.

He's doing a front facing video from his hospital back.

From his hospital back.

Yeah, so he's super cringe And they made this Twitter account for Mathis and he does these hashtag hashtag math facts is what it's called, and it's like these little tidbits that he you know, that he drops and it's like but they made it super immersive.

It was a really fun episode to do.

I mean it's kind of rare that we get to do stuff that kind of goes the gambit of like like everything that we could do.

I got to sing, you know, I got those dramatic scenes.

I got to you know, chop it up with iced tea, you know what I mean, and then hang out Murska Hargate in the hospital bed.

It's like, doesn't get better than that.

Yeah, do you have anything going on right now that you want our listeners to check out or anything?

Or now that the strike is over, we're just kind of back.

I had a lot of things like in the in the works, like right before the pandemic hit and then it's just kind of been a series of things. So just kind of getting I'm getting married in April, Yeah, in New York. Yeah, we're getting married in Brooklyn.

Did you propose in Disneyland?

I did not.

I'm really not like a Disney adult like that. It's like, there are worse people. Let's say there are worse people. I do enjoy Disney.

But no, you're supporting your fiance's interests and that's very important.

Listen, we're there, you know what I mean, we're there. We might as well immerse ourselves in the situation. But no, we're getting married in Brooklyn. That's what's nets. And then there's a couple of new projects coming up in the spring musical wise, that can't announce you just yet.

But yeah, there's there's a couple of things.

And your mood, you're you're still doing Mufasa currently, Like right.

Now, I'm still am doing lupostera. Yeah.

I mean I'll be gone for the next for like three weeks when I go to Disney just for the sake of bounding. Yeah. But but yeah, but I'm move Foster.

Still amazing. This was so amazing. We really I had a great time chatting.

Yeah, thanks for taking the time. I know you're you're a busy, busy person.

No, I appreciate you guys, have a good night, thank you, bye bye.

Oh my god, a smile that would blind you, like the most beautiful smile.

Just cool. And I was so glad I got to tell him we saw him in Lion King me and Rosie.

And I just missed guests, Like I like talking to cool people that are talented and do fun stuff and we get to bond and I enjoy that, so sue me.

Yeah, he was great and we'll be.

We'll be looking for updates from his Disney trip for the new Bounding.

Yeah, I saw them. I saw this picture. We interviewed him a little bit ago.

They're up. They're up on his instagram. Oh the new ones are up. Oh my god. Yeah, they're on his instagram.

You can see his like a little buzz light ear kind of or it's like a toy story inspired what.

Are you gonna dress house? Or what do you think your kids will want to d or? Oscar's not even going yeah, not even gonna do.

I don't know.

I think that Rosie's just she's a girl of variety. She likes so many different things. It's not like she's a stan of one thing. Like right now, it's Aladdin by the time we go, it could be something totally different. Yeah, but Milana has been a staple, you know, But that's yeah, that's Oscar.

H Rosie comes out and goes, I don't want to watch this anymore. She's sick of it. Oscar.

Just today at the doctor, she goes, what kind of sticker do you want? He goes Mohana like he's so fucking won track mine for Mowana in Gabby's dollhouse. But anyway, I don't know what we'll be doing any costuming, but you know, well, uh, I just hope the weather's nice and it's a it's a smooth trip. Maybe I'll I'm gonna hit up L Steven Taylor and ask him for his tips, but actually he's a he's a.

Disney old guy, I think, And I'm going to Land. No, our listeners will hit you up. I am not concerned.

You will get all the tips and then now your phone knows you're going, so you're oh, your feed will be tips.

Yeah, but let's do a post mortemon down low in Hell's kitchen. I mean, truly, such a wild crime hoax, like from our time. I was interested in researching it because I was like, did it really go down the way that way, Like, you know, I was kind of paying attention to.

It, but not really.

No, the Justice Smollett thing was fucked But then the people that were like so mad about it, we're all trumpy and racist, so it was like, yeah, it's a fucked up thing to do.

Can you not lie about being attacked?

But the way people were like off with his head was disproportionate to all the rapists that they know. It is wrong to take police attention and resources on a crime that did not happen. Something is tough when black people who do lie about crimes get more time than like people who kill black people, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah, it's like, yeah, Jesse did something wrong, he deserves to get in trouble whatever, But there is just something unsettling about it all.

Yeah, how hard people came for him? Yeah, for sure, or.

Even the case that you covered Towanna Bradley, Yeah, or even last year there was that girl that went missing and it wasn't real. It's like and then everyone just is so mad and they're so pissed they get more Jale time. And I get it because it is harder for victory. You know, I get it. I get the sentiment, but I don't get the level of anger.

Yeah, because like I always bring up Sherry Peppini, the woman who like did a hoax of her own kidnapping, or.

Ryan Lockey, the swimmer who lied about being robbed.

I don't think anyone cared.

He's been on reality shows of versus like Ryan Locktey fucking lied about being robbed at the Olympics and it was a blip in his life. Yeah, Sherry Peppini got eighteen months, but it looks like she's sir less than a year, you know, and that.

But that's a white woman, you know. Yeah, and then you see Brock Turner.

Yeah yeah, it's just like I know it's wrong, but the racial elements of everything is just it's too pervasive and it's too much to just look at it and be like, yeah he did, you know.

Yeah, yeah for sure.

And the episode definitely like added a different element to it in terms of like this was like a media plan for coming out because he felt like embarrassed of coming out, or like didn't want to come out in a certain way, or someone was like holding his coming out against him. So I was glad that at least in Jesse Smollett's case, he was just like an outman and it really didn't have anything to do with his sexual orientation at all. But that leads me into what

About what we talked about today.

And this week, I wanted to highlight the HRC, or the Human Rights Campaign, which strives to end discrimination against LGBTQ plus people and realize a world that achieves fundamental fairness and equality for all. It is the largest political lobbying organization in the US and they focus on protecting and expanding LGBTQ plus rights for individuals and advocating for same sex marriage, anti discrimination and hate crimes legislation, and

Thank you so much for that. I always want to switch up what I say afterwards, but there's only a few options for me.

Yeah, you know, that was a good one. Thank you.

Kara Also, now that I am here, I want to volunteer. So if anyone volunteers in New York and has a place they love to suggest for me, that would be great. I mean, it's intimidating to find something.

Yeah, I've always wanted to volunteer in New York, and I like didn't really know where to start. I feel like I googled it a couple times and was like what.

But yeah, it's just intimidating.

But I'd love to be able to get involved in some way anyways. So if you have any you know, if you have Disney stuff for Kara, some volunteer stuff for me, let me know. But I'm not gardening. Don't send me any harvest shit. I'm not fucking doing any gardening.

You're not doing Bette Midler's organization that like greens up the parks.

Forget that. That's what I keep finding. I'm like, I'm not fucking doing this. Okay.

But next week, oh god, this is a tough one.

We're doing Townhouse Incident, Season seventeen, episode eleven.

We'll see you then.

It's a it's a chilly one, all right, see you guys.

That's messed up as an Exactly Right Production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email at That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod and on Twitter at Messed Up Pod. Follow us personally at Kara Klank and at glitter Cheese.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our producer Ksey O'Brien and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain.

And to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song, and Carly Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

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