Dominance w/ Caren Browning

Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

These are our stories done done.

Hello, that's messed up? An SVU podcast. I'm Liza Traeger and I'm Kara Klank. You know what we do here.

We talk about an episode of Law and Order SVU Special Victims Unit, then we talk about the true crime is based on, and then we interview a gorgeous actor from the show. And today we are coming to you live from a hotel in Cleveland, and we only have one microphone, so we are sharing it.

And I hope that doesn't sound weird.

We're sharing the mic, we're sharing a little chair, she's on a bench. We're driving through the beautiful Midwest. Well it's wild because when we were driving in the southeast, it was like fall leaves, gorgeous yellows, browns, and then now it's barren, barren trees.

Thirty three degrees, snow flurries, barren trees.

It's winter here. It is, but I do have fun.

The spinach chart to choke dip at the clubs never disappoints a fave.

We love it and I'm.

So happy that I got you addicted to Jimmy John's. It helps my life. I just Lisa, Okay, So we just got dropped off at this hotel in Cleveland, and then I was like, I'm, you know, constantly looking for a deal. So I was like, I'm not paying for the valet here. It's too expensive. I'm gonna go park it at the scrush next door. I go park it upstairs. I come down the doors, take me to the opposite side of the street that I entered on, and there's a Jimmy John's right there. And when I tell you that,

It probably knows it's there.

But I truly acted like I saw, I don't know, like my favorite restaurant because it's delicious, but no, the gas was worth it.

But this area of Cleveland is annoying.

It's like the business districts, like everything closes at three pm.

It's like you got to wrap it up and go get a Jimmy John.

Well, I had an egg and cheese from Dunkin Donuts and it was the best one I've ever had in here. Like we were annoyed in the drive through because it was taking so long, and then the moment I've been into it, I was like, Oh, this is high quality, this is high quality.

Yeah, you're like an aficionado of these things.

Yeah, they should have me on dough Boys. I don't know, I haven't been on it.

I was trying to think of I couldn't think of the podcast name, and I was like, you should be on that podcast about fast food, but I forgot what it's called. Yeah, it's bullshit that they have not had me on it.

But it's also okay because I also know all the things you know, like chick flake, great mac and cheese.

Like I just know the tricks hips and tricks of the trade. Not even a trick. It's truly on the menu. It is huge on the menu.

Uh.

We've been having a great time with everybody coming out to the live shows. I guess I'll take this time to do my normal tour.

Bullshit.

This episode comes out after we've already done Florida, but at Sacramento, were coming for you in a couple of nights. We're gonna be there on the eighth, and then we're gonna be in Dallas and Houston the following week. Uh, and then don't forget about Philadelphia. New York is sold out unfortunately, but there's the second show at it in Boston.

No, we're having a super super fun time. Wait.

Wait, I was gonna say something. Was it just about fast food? Though I can't imagine?

Oh?

No, I talked about some of my stories.

But I was staying at the TWA Hotel, which is in side of JFK, and it's like sixties vibe. But this bartender loved Elon Musk like I could never have imagined.

And I kept trying.

I kept like making good points of like you can like him, but there's flaws.

And I told him, I go, I like tons of bad people. It's totally fine, but he's an idiot, and he goes, how do you what do you mean?

He's so rich?

I go, is rich the only way you find people good or bad?

Like it makes no sense. I go, he brought a sink into the headquarters. He doesn't.

He's surrounded by yes people. He is not self aware. He's a rich kid. And he he was defending that.

He goes.

Other people don't use resources. There's other people who don't. People don't work hard enough. And I was like, you are sucked in. And then he was like, well, if you were a billionaire, what would you do? What would you do? And I go, I would feed children and to make sure Flint had water. Like, what are you talking about?

I just I just have.

Never met an Elon musk freak before. But he loved Zuckerberg. Well, I was telling you this that I saw on Twitter when people were defending Elon.

They were going, you just don't get it.

No other billionaire ever gets on to Twitter and engages and talks to the fan and engages with the memes. And I go, oh my god, we're so much more worse off than I thought we were. These people think the measure of success is a guy who engages with the memes. It's too late. Maybe we need him to take us to Mars I don't know, no. And then he goes, but he's a genius. How can you say he's not that smart?

I go, he didn't make the spaceships, he didn't make the Tesla.

He bought those patents.

He's hiring scientists, he's firing people off Twitter who disagree with him. I'm like, he comes from money, but also he's a hypocrite. I go, you don't think it's humiliating that he's blocking people that make fun of him, firing people who say that make fun of him on the internal slack.

The bartender couldn't believe it.

I go, I'm sorry, bro, but all bad people are men who want to be funny and aren't or have weird dicks.

I'm like, And then he kind of opened his eyes. I go.

Every dude wants to just be funny with a great dick, and when they're not, that's when school shootings happens, that's when wars start. That's when Elon Musk fires everyone at Twitter and brings au sink.

I just can't. Oh.

Same with Trump, where it's like the things that are not as important are the ones that stick in my mind, Like when he plagiarized bane in his it's a inauguration speech. That's when I was like, wait, what's happening And it's this minuscule thing that now happened what seven years ago? But I'm still just like the bane, the bane of it all. It's and same with Elon, Like I'm sure you know the union busting he did and made people work through COVID and all that. But to me, I'm

But I am kind of liking watching Twitter meltdown a little bit, like all these big companies losing millions of dollars because people have billions billions. Yeah, no, I do love these evil corporations losing stocks for sure, Like people that have been ripping off people on insulin for decades.

It's like, yeah, I love to see you take it.

And then you have this bartender in a hotel bar inside of an airport defending these monsters. I just like, I just don't understand it. I don't understand it.

Like you love Eli Lilly, Like what why you should not be celebrating CEOs.

I just don't.

But sometimes hustle culture memes pop up, and I guess sometimes they're inspirational, but it's like, yeah, I don't want to wake up at four am. I'm sorry, I don't. I don't want to do that. I don't want to like chew On Bark in the office in a different way, you hustle. Yeah, but my body is in pain. My knees hurt, I'm falling apart. My throat's on fire, like I'm pushing it to the limit but not nourishing myself in any way.

The sole's out of her shoes. You guys, she's got the foot pain. I don't know what's happening. I just can't get rid of these sneakers. I'm mentally, I'm like, it's an immigrant thing. I don't know what to say, but I do feel like maybe I should stretch. I don't know, like I don't know how people do it. Yeah, stretching. Well, it's an age thing too, I think once you're like, you know, I'm much older than you, So I don't like to hear that. Yeah, but you know, when you

No, I just feel like I'm pushing myself in the way as I did in my early twenties.

But I'm not in that. So that's what I have to do.

Yeah, for sure, I don't go out as much as I used to back them, but I still I still got it. I would say, I know, hello listener, you might know that it's you. But she was like, I'm thirty six. Now I can't go to concerts And I was like, wait, what go to concerts? Do it?

It's so thrilling. I'm trying to think of stuff not on the road.

Well, if anyone's listening, I do want a White Lotus PR package to be sent to me, So I'm really I'm really jealous. Michelle Collins posted it and I want a White Lotus bucket hat If.

Anybody's got the hook up with the PR firm working with HBO and White Lotus, please Lisa needs this.

Oh and will you if you saw us live, you know this? But Kara did meet my family?

Yes, Oh my god, I just took the mic out of Lisa's hands so that I can have a monologue. I met the family. It was so amazing. I got there. Lisa's dad stood in front of me and was like hello, and I was like hi, and I shook his hand. But then it felt like maybe I should go for hug, so I just kind of wrapped my arms around him, and I don't think he really went back for it, but it was still fun. And then her mom gave me a nice big hug. And then I met one

But I do feel that you and my sister vibe like you guys could be friends and hang out without me.

She's great. I think a lot of people would like her.

Yeah, she's a good time. I also feel like I could hang out with Colin without you.

You absolutely good. You've already hung out with my cousin without me. Am I one of my best friends from elementary school without me.

Wait where Jed. Oh yeah, Jed, But who's your cousin. Didn't you meet Sebastian? Yeah, but we didn't hang out without you. You were there.

I thought that I thought you met him the night with Jed. Sorry, well it's minutes away from happening.

No.

And I like the idea of having a friend named Bash. But my dad was not on his best behavior. He is old, he was drunk and he did have to nap sitting up. It was strange, but everyone else was exciting.

And then she met my nephew who loves to work out.

Yeah, and I was like, he's a jacked little fourteen year old. He's very muscly. But I also ate a lot of that food was really good. Lisa's mom is like just slaves in the kitchen.

Yeah.

And then the next day she had to make all my nephew's favorite foods to bring to him to college for his birthday.

But she made how many dishes? There was like ten dishes on the.

Table full Thanksgiving And this was a Sunday night, a random Sunday, Yeah, random Sunday. Two beet salads and multiple beet salads, delicious bread with like an onion, no to a garlic creamy cheese dip.

Oh my god, that was so good. I loved the potato salad thing too, Olivia. It's my favorite, Olivia, I crave all the time.

And it's supposed to come with peas, but I hate peas, so we changed the recipe for me. You know, I yeah, that was really good. Peace suck, dude. Peas are awesome. We just pulled an audience the other day. It was fifty to fifty. I fucking love peas. I asked them to be added to my mac and cheese when I'm in restaurants. If I'm ordering mac and cheese and Lisa hates them, I think they're so good. I think they're sweet. They're like they've got that little that little pop.

When you eat them. I love them.

Yeah, But I'm not a good like. I don't like lima beans. I'm not in that family. I only love reefried beans, even a black bean. I'm like, do I really have to?

I'm a lagome baby. I love a lagome and nuts.

I think my life would be better if I liked nuts and beans. No nuts and an M and m okay, a chocolate coating and a candy shell.

But I wish I could just.

Grab a couple of pistachios and be like, nice, Oh I love that, a little couple of pistachios.

Did you see me?

We shared a barad appetizer the other day. I was scooping the posastos into my hand.

Yeah.

We went to a place that did have a shooting. Wait, hold on, well, we were talking about the fuck.

We were there. Just to clarify.

We got wanded on the way in, like with security, and we were like, what's going on? We were just here and it wasn't like this, And the girl in the elevator with us.

Goes there was a shooting a few weeks ago.

We were like, oops, if they were If we were at a live shooting and we just brushed off that fast, I'm shooting, it would be so fucked up. No, we were talking about not Oh I learned macaroons or macarons.

Yes, so macaroons are like to me, are they Jewish? Because I always remember having them with you? No, you're right, no, yeah, yeah, like they're like from past over. They're like they are like a coconut sort of dense cookie dumplingy type thing. And then a macarn is like those instagrammable different colors like French cookie sandwiches.

They're different.

Yeah, and so thank you too who brought us Makaran's. I did really enjoy it and I have enjoyed. This is fun together in a room. This never happened.

We never do this. Yeah, and stay tuned.

We might have something coming up this month, ye with yeah, just just just a wink.

All we're doing is a wink.

Yes, stay tuned, keep an eye, keep watch this space, as they say.

And now we will get right into SVU. Enjoy our episode. It's fucked up. This is one of the most fucked up crimes we have covered. So buckle up, you know, cover your children's ears.

Here's your trigger warning. FYI Like there it is. Yeah, and we.

Don't talk shit about Taylor Swift in this one, so you could all relax. I hope you got your tickets except the people that wrote to us. I hope you didn't get your tickets. I hope the Q didn't work for you and your internet Wi Fi came out and you couldn't get a seat. But I'm gonna go because I'm friends with agents.

Listen, I wish no ill will against anyone and I just wanted to remind you guys about our awesome, existing and new merch in our merch store that you can find at exactly rightmedia dot com slash shop. It is the holiday season, babyes, so go out and get some

Happy shopping. Check out our.

Episode Dominance Season four, episode twenty I feel like people have asked for this, We've been wanting to do this. This is like a classic. I love this episode even though it's sick.

Okay, it is.

Sick, but there's twists and turns and yatties and legends.

Yeah and yeah, yeah a lot of hotties and legends.

So we once again open up on a couple rushing somewhere and complaining like this is New York City's a couple's being like, well, if a cab driver it just told me, gone the way I said, or like well if you had taken this, you know the role for us.

This is what this is what casting is. Fucking yeah, like.

We need to be bickering. And then we stumble upon a b dat. Yeah, it's like who's paying for what? You're looking at a receipt or walking out of a restaurant. I go stop being like this.

I'm like, can you just add movie perfect? Yeah, David Gratziano, let's get to it. Yeah, bust the moon. There's nothing to it.

So this couple is rushing up to like a Brownstone, it's winter New York. They're like talking about a like the cab driver didn't take the way he said, and the girl's like, well, we should have just taken the subway. This is me and Jared, because Jared always wanted to take cabs. I always wanted to take the subway. And the guy goes body slamming my way onto the number nine with the great unwashed no thanks, and she calls him a snob, which is exactly what I was thinking.

It's always with Melinda, like the weirdest things where it's like no sud in an nostril and it's like who okay, Like it's always the wildest example of how she knew that they were dead first too.

Yes, yeah she could always. Yeah, She's like, see this laceration, it's not really bleeding because they were already dead or whatever. Yeah, Melinda is showing them some pubes on her computer, and it looks like Evan's hairs were found not only on his fiance but on the other male victim, So it looks like the purps forced them to rape the women and then each other, which is wild. And I'm like, damn, that couple was really really late to this dinner, like a lot went on, Like this was a crime that

You, but it doesn't.

Evan, one of the murder victims, was his son, and he lived there with his fiance and no one else. How lovely to live in a townhouse that your millionaire father is paying for on the Upper West Side. Earl is worth fifty million, but nothing else points to him being targeted.

All the victims are clean.

They all come from wealthy families and have entry level jobs in media. Perfect Finn's got some info. He's like, it's only one perp. They found bloody footprints, all from the same shoes. They also checked ViCAP and they can't find a similar mom anywhere. Craigan cannot believe this dude came out of nowhere, and Huang's like, no, he's probably been in the system before, like sexual assault, rape, burglary.

So who's the last person?

So they go check what the toy millionaire Evan's dad, who's telling them everyone loved my son, no one would want to hurt him.

I mean, that's what every parent says, to be fair.

But he doesn't think anyone was targeting him either personally. And he's like, there's some jewelry missing, but none of it was worth that much. The most valuable thing that this person took was a framed photo of him and Evan fishing, and Finn's like, I might have fallen in the attack. And the cops we might have it in evidence, like, we'll give it, we'll check it out, and they say, who do you know who the seventh person might be?

Yeah, that's Buzzy's a definite rich nickname, you know, reminds me of a Muffy. Yeah, yeah, you're going to meet us in the Hamptons.

My mom's friend does have a friend named Muffy who I see when I go to New Canaan.

It's a lot rich. Is Muffy? I think pretty rich?

So anyway, now they're at the magazine and the receptionist there is being a real Muffy. She's being a real bitch. She's very unhelpful. She says she can't reach Paul and she doesn't know if he's in. It's a big company and it's not really her job to keep track of like who's coming into work and whatnot.

She calls the.

Editor and is like, they're like, okay, bitch, like we need to talk to him, so figure something out. So she calls the editor and he comes right out, and she's surprised. She's like, oh, the editor like thinks the police are important. So he's coming and the editor is so New York. He's like, are you the officers looking for Paul Dumont? I'm the editor, Like it's hilarious, and then he says he just heard from Paul's parents. There's been an accident and he's at Roosevelt Hospital and he's

Oh did I say Roosevelt? Oh you sure did? Oh I usually say Roosevelt.

So at the hospital, we see Paul on a ventilator round the head bandage Lesa's favorite kind, and he is not looking good, he said, he They there's a doctor there, and she says he was brought in the night before with massive skull fractures and the doc was surprised he was even alive. They rushed him to the oar to reduce swelling, but his prognosis is a bleak. There's a lot of damage in bleeding, too much for a fall,

Done. Done.

So. Now we're at the park and the couple there is Russell and Darlene Weston. They're both fifty one, both shot in the head, found naked, just like out in the park wild. They said blood was found on the women's nether regions. I don't like using that phrase, but I'm quoting the show. They found a slug in a.

Tree, so it looks Diddle or another regions.

I hate both of them, but I think Diddle is worse. They found a slug in a tree. It looks like a three eighty, and they're going to run ballistics. I know so little about guns, Like you could say any kind of gun. I'm like, oh, is that a one that kills people better than other ones? Like I really know nothing about guns. They also found a key ring and the house keys are on it, but the key rink is The key ring's kind of like bent, and it looks like maybe something was ripped off of it.

Like maybe a car key.

Their cash and their cards are all gone, along with their jewelry. Six murders in two days, Dumont will make seven. This is a spree killer done done. End of act one at the precinct. Now, Olivia is addressing this full task force of people and tells them add Paul Dumont to the lost column. He died an hour ago. Rip

Which is like, yeah, he's so fake, like so well known movies about him, like laws are made about him. Was it because it was the seventies, Like I don't understand he's such a famous killer for not?

I I think he was also because he was like going after women who had a specific look, and I don't know, and it was like no one knew when he was going to strike again because there was all this time in between, So I don't know.

Maybe that's that's what it was. No, no, like where how they're going to be sick?

Because I remember my mom telling me something about people like girls wearing wigs. Like girls were like, I think I forget if son of Sam went after blondes.

I think he did.

And so like my mom was like, I was fine because I was a brunette, but I had blonde friends who would like wear wigs.

Damn. Yeah.

So you know, Craigan goes, you've all got your assignments. Let's get this guy. And then we get kind of an info dump, like the same gun was used on the Westons and the Briggs townhouse.

So now we've connected these crimes. They're all the same killer.

The Westons boats tested positive for fluids on the rape kits, but no stray. Same mo perp forced them to have sex. Missus Weston had bruising on her face like she was pistol whipped, and they were like, oh, yeah, he probably pistol whiped the wife until her husband got it up, and he probably did the same thing at the townhouse.

So what do they have in common?

It turns out that the thing that was ripped off the keychain was a photo of her grandson, and then the purp also took that picture of Evan and his dad fishing. Huang is there to weigh in on what that all means. He says, these are specific trophies. He's trying to destroy happy families. He's probably jealous because he had a miserable family life. There was probably abuse, and he's going to keep going until we stop him.

Yikes.

Now we're at Riverside Park with our girl CSCU Captain Judas Cipher, who is telling Monk and this, by the way, is her first episode. This is the first time we're meeting our girl Judy. Okay, she's telling Munch and Dewthorn what is up. They found distinct footprints, two belonging to

This is it?

Maybe someone in one of these buildings remembers the car. Crazy, there's probably a thousand departments that look onto that spot, and they're like, let's just see if any of these people looked out the window and saw anything for the car. Like, it's just crazy that that's what's making the plot move forward at this point, but that you know, they do that sometimes. Cut to Finn and Dwthorne just knocking on one of a thousand doors to say, hey, do you

So then on this next door they.

Knock on, a big big man opens the door in a Tommy Bahama shirt and he immediately hates them.

He's like, how do you get past the doorman? Which we've heard before.

We heard that in the episode Families with Stephanie Seymour. How'd you get pess the do woman. So his name is Rennie Nicks and he is acab as hell. He's like, you can't just barge in here like Hawaii five, Oh why aren't you finding the killer?

And he's like, they're like, sir, that's like what we're doing right now. So they're like, do you have a car? He goes, no, get lost and slams the door in their faces.

So outside, Finn is kind of getting Dewthorne's story, like, so, what are you like thirty? How'd you get into homicide so quickly? Like get your gold shield? Like to become a detective by thirty seems tough, I guess, and he was. He basically admits right away. He's like I was neighbors with somebody high up, like the commissioner was my neighbor

He's very hot man. People love him.

I think he used to date Nina Dobrev from the Vampire Diaries and then not together anymore. No, No, they're like updating now. Yeah, I'm sure we'll get messages. He's very you know, he's very cute, and he's like limping and leading the detectives into his apartment and they're like, are you al Baker and he's like, no, I'm Charlie.

I have the update. I have the update live live on the pot Live. He smolder Holder. He married Twilight alum Nikki Reid. Yes, that's right, Smolder Holder in April twenty fifteen, just the head of her Vampires Exit but whatever, I'm.

Trying to think if I want.

But they're from separate vampire shows, right, Like he's a vampire from Vampire Diaries and she's a vampire from Twilight.

Like they're separate vampires. She's been in both.

Oh yes, yeah, I think she's fully in both in terms of that. I think I watched their What I Eat in a Day. But you know a lot of these people blend together.

Yeah, and Nina Doe brev is like recently married to somebody as well, but like who's I don't know, maybe not anybody, but uh, yes, they were like a hot couple of months when she's with I actually love this.

She's dating Sean White, the snowboard snowboarder and they haven't for a while.

Yeah. I like that.

Yeah, I really like him. You've obviously, I think we've probably even talked about the podcast. This famous moment on TV after he won all those medals. He was like on a news program doing the interviews and he's like, yeah, and I was on the flight and everyone was handing me drinks and they're like, aren't you you're under twenty one, and.

He goes a mountain dew baby. That's so quick, so quick.

He was just like so quick to mention mountain dew A mountain dew baby.

I love that.

But I just love snowboarding and skateboarding as like a sport so much because I love that it's like a stone. I don't know if they're actually stoners, but I like that it's the bad boys, the casual like obviously they're working hard and they're athletes, but they still have this relatable fun energy.

So I like those kinds of sports.

I don't mean to make everybody drink on a Tuesday morning when they're trying to get to work. But I did work at the Torino Olympics in two thousand and six, and I worked on the Today Show and I went with Katie Koric to the mountains to do an interview with Sean White one, so I met him for two seconds.

So nice, nice boy.

Do you remember when Bob Costas had pink eye and it took over Olympic reporting forever?

Yes, that was more recently, not my year, Thank god. It's just.

So he says, Oh, are you Al Baker And he's like, no, I'm Charlie Baker. Owl's my dad. And he seems like he just does not give a fuck about life. The guy is like, you know, limping his wind primary like yeah, whatever, that's my dad, Like fuck off, like he does not care. And Finn introduces himself to Al played by Franklin Agella, a very famous actor the Americans, right tons of stuff. He also dated Whoopy Goldberg.

Hello, and.

Finn tells him that they're part of the Auto Squad, so they're kind of like, you know, playing this guy a little bit. And he tells Charlie, you better get to work, and don't forget your brother Billy. It's really funny to say don't forget your brother Billy, like and to name him as if he doesn't know who.

His brother is. But it's for the exposition of the show.

And he says, three days ago he brought his car to a plumbing supply place in Jersey. When he came out to get the car, it was gone, and Finn says, well, it was a Ford, so no one wants the parts and it was probably just a kid looking for a joy ride. We'll get back to you on this, and Al's like, thank you, shakes their hands. Right before they leave, they ask Al because he's got this big like gash on his forehead with two like butterfly stitches on it,

Lovely guy.

Anyway, Finn gets a phone call as we're talking to the boys and walks away and Duthorn's like, oh, you guys, don't use that car, and Charlie's like, yeah, it's a piece of shit, Like what are we going.

To pick up girls with that? Lol?

They're laughing ha ha ha, and they're like, we got to get to work. So they peace out. Fann hangs upon and we find out we found the contour with two more bodies in it. Boom, Oh my god, so many twists. The car is parked in Central Park. The steering column hasn't been touched, so the thief had to have had a key, like no one was in there. Jacket it open with like a you know, screwdriver, and the victims are on the ground nearby.

It's two men named Adam and Craig. They're both twenty two.

The cash has gone from their wallet, their watches are gone, they've been dead six to eight hours. Their clothes are on. So was there a sexual assault involved? And Melinda's like, I haven't gotten that far yet. But one of them has their fly open and they're like, well, this is a lover's lane. Maybe they were getting busy, and it's like yeah, but why would the purp ditch the ride? And it looks like they took Adam's car, a silver

Are him and Greg? And the girl's Okay?

What girls? Yeah, now we know that there's two girls and they are missing.

Okay.

Top of act three, we find out these girls are Claudia and Diane, twenty one, roommates at Barnard hopefully friends with Michelle Collins. They were double dating and with the two guys that were found in the park. No one's heard from them. They're just in the wind. And Craigan is like, fully traffic copy again, He's like, let's check credit cards? How we do it on the tip line?

Whatever.

Ballistics confirms that these two guys were killed with the same guns. So these are victims eight and nine. This is a wild amount of people to kill in like three days. And Stabler's like, why snag these two women now? Like everyone else who they've just like left dead in their wake, Andhong's like, they're living trophies and he's probably stashing them somewhere, and they're like, well, what's changed, and

Like Ziffa who targeted cousins, though no I saw her cousins coubled.

And he's a loner who has trouble making connections with people, so people in successful relationships really trigger him, and kidnapping these women is a way to fulfill his fantasy. When he's done, or one of these women pisses him off, he's gonna kill them. So we were like on borrow time right now, and they may just have caught a break.

Csu has something.

Now we're back with Jude's cipher and they can't find much in the car, but she found footprints consistent with the footprints at other scenes, and we know the guys between five A and five ten based on the foot impressions. And he's wearing these outdoor wear explorers, which are basically Timberlin's right, and she says, these are great boots for finding evidence because I think they just grab so much in their big treads.

And so she did find some stuff.

She found wood, it's pine, oak and cherry, as well as some fiberglass, so maybe this guy works in construction, and she's like, that's what I thought till I found the rest. She also found grass seed rye and Kentucky bluegrass, so ju Thorn's like, even my old man's not making me seed the grass in the middle of winter, so it's weird that there'd be grass seeds in his boots because it's like wintertime, it's snowing out, and literally a bunch of these scenes and so she doubts it came

At the precinct.

Live says the suv was found at forty ninth between eighth and ninth and Hell's Kitchen. She got a description from the unhouse man that was sitting inside of it. He said the driver was average height, young, dark hair, blue eyes.

Not really a lot to go on. That's a lot of people.

They're gonna have to canvass every home improvement store that sells lumbers. They're only solid lead. Olivia says. So now we're at G and C Improvements on Amsterdam. Maybe they have canvas ten stores at this point on the show, it always seems like they hit the jackpot on the

He's a dream employee. He's worked here for three years.

He's only been late one time and it was the other day he said his car was stolen. Okay, so there's too many coincidences happening. Now Finn and Duthorne are reporting to Craigan with a headshot of Billy and they're like, they explained that the.

Car was never boosted.

Billy must have taken it ditchit in Central Park when he knew that they were looking for it, and Wong's here with the profile.

Billy is the super's kid.

He grew up with rich people who probably treated him like shit and you know, alcoholic dad whatever. So do we pick him up. It's a power game if we arrest him. Now, he may never tell us where the missing women are. So they decide that they're going to sit on him twenty four to seven to make sure he doesn't kill anyone, and that let's give him back the car so he has some transportation to get going.

This is a one way ticket to a lethal injection.

And he's like, tell us where the girls are and maybe the DA will spare you the death penalty and if they die, it's over for you. Don't blow this, and he just keeps saying, I want to talk to my brother, and he says, I'll tell you whatever you want if I can talk to my brother, and they're worried. The brother will tell him to lawyer up, and the case is bulletproof even without a confession. But we just

Out of this.

Like Charlie's just like, okay, I guess my brother did it, even though I said ten minutes ago that he could never have done that. And Charlie's like, let me talk to him. So now we're watching the brothers talk through one way glass. Billy immediately apologizes to Charlie and he says he's screwed up.

He's like, I screwed up? Are you mad at me? And Charlie's like, no, you're my brother. We gotta work this out.

This conversation is so weird, the fact that they don't flag this conversation immediately. It's a bizarre combo and he's like, the cops want you to show them where the women are, and he goes, I won't do it. And he goes, you have to do the right thing here, Billy, you have to be strong, be a man. Billy says, I am. Can't you see that. Charlie grabs his arm and says, no matter what happens, I am always here for you.

Dude? Tell me where the girls are.

Finn's like he's not going to give a shit, and Huang thinks it's strange that he didn't ask for the dad. And they're like, well, Charlie is sober and the dad isn't. And Charlie comes out and goes sorry. Detectives Craigan comes in and says they got two more bodies in Greenwich Village, way out of the killer's comfort zone, and Finn's like, what the fuck. We get to the crime scene and Melinda's giving us a rundown. The vics are Iris and

That's right.

I knew. I knew the name from somewhere. So they were discovered by their maid. So clearly they've got a little bit of money too. She was shot in the head. I mean, we have a housekeeper.

Yeah, comes every two weeks. They say, their maid.

I never would call her that, Like, what do you call her? I say my cleaning person? But yeah, yeah, I.

Mean I just call her by her first name most of the time. But yes, my cleaning person.

But she if I talk to someone, because I tell people a lot, because you know, messiness is one of the things that is Cleanliness is hard for me.

So she has really changed my life.

I mean, being able to pack and not worry about how I'm leaving the place and then have you let her in and then come home to a clean place has really been life changing.

Yeah, so I talk about her a lot. But you never say you're maid. No, I say cleaning person.

Yeah, I say cleaning lady.

But that seems bad. That's why I just said person on the podcast. I was lying. I say cleaning lady. She is a lady. She is a lady.

Like when I text her, I'm like Hey lady, anyway, shout out we love you. She doesn't listen. But what's up. So the girl victim iris was shot in the head. The husband, it seems, was shot in the face because his apparently his face is like gone and the shooter put the gun right between his eyes. The woman was rape but the husband wasn't, so it seems like maybe the purp did. At this time, they're dead less than

To your building.

That's crazy. Suddenly Duthorne comes screaming.

I got it, I got it. Through the hallway.

He goes same gun, but there are two perps and he tacks up two shoe prints. It's the same shoe print found at both scenes, but one purp walks normal and done done.

The other one walks with a limp just like Charlie.

Does ye fit that's not putting in a limp for no reason exactly. And also Ian summerholder while hot, I guess if you're like a teen and you like vampires, has psycho eyes like his eyes like look crazy. Like from the second I saw him, I'm like, this kid looks like a psycho Like. It's just like crazy that anyone would think of these two brothers. Little Jason Rider that's like me, it wasn't me, like, has the sweetest

Don't hit me. Don't hit me.

He says it like two times, like he's very scared, and he's like, does anyone know where Charlie is? And he goes, yeah, his girlfriend, he had that slut work together.

Okay. The dad is all over the blaze and the girlfriend.

They go to this coffee shop where the girlfriend is like, what are why are you asking me where Charlie is? And she's like, because you're his girlfriend, and she goes I was his girlfriend. I dumped his ass six months ago. He's crazy and it's like, yeah, I've also looked in his face. He seems crazy and she goes, him and

She was having sex with the brother to break him in on women. So then the.

Last time Charlie climbed into bed with her and Billy and they're like, oh, a threesome and she goes, yeah, a threesome that became a twosome and I wasn't one of.

The two, so yikes. Twist. We're at brotherly incest now.

Finn and Juthorn are like speechless, and the girl says Billy didn't want to Charlie made him. Billy was crying so loud that the dad came in and caught them, and Charlie threatened to kill all of them if she ever told. So that's why she's never said anything. But she did break up with his ass. They bring the dad in for questioning and he's still lit as hell,

I'm trying to help you.

And Huang asks who's been beating you and he says no one, and they're like was it Charlie and he goes no, And then then they say, well, what about catching him having sex with Billy? Did that happen? And he says, yeah, he was raping Billy. I told him to leave him alone. He laughed at me and called me a drunk loser who couldn't keep a woman ouch, and then he told me he was going to do

It's sad.

I hope Oscar never hits me or Rosie. Actually it's more likely to be Rosie, but I hope neither of them do. The cops bust in and grab him and he won't stop struggling and he yells threats at his dad and the dad says, I should have killed you for what you did to Billy, and he says, Billy hates you more than I do, and then like he kind of was trying to reach into a couch when

And he like he screams it. It's like very psycho.

And Finn shows the headshots of the girls to him and it's like where are they? And he goes, oh, if you guys are so smart, why don't you find them yourselves, and like drops the headshots and then they start roughing him up. Then they bring in Alan Billy and Al says, tell them Billy, and he goes, no, take me back to jail.

Like this kid.

Billy is like fully under Stockholm syndrome, like some kind of you know, full sway of his brother. And Al's like, I tried to protect you, and Billy says, so I could grow up to be like you. Charlie's twice the man you'll ever be. And the dad looks very bummed to hear that, because that's supposed to be his nice son. And then Finn goes, yo, Billy, your brother set your ass up. All that stuff you guys stole from the murders. We found it in a storage locker in the building.

And Billy is like whining, like why did you do that?

And Charlie's like, be a man, And Billy starts to break down, like why did you do that. You didn't protect me. You said it was us against everyone else. And Charlie goes, don't tell them where those bitches are, and he like flies across the room hands and cuffs and attacks Billy and says, I'll rip you a part of you.

Tell them.

And then he confesses everything, and he says, Charlie made me kill those people, and he shot those women's boyfriends. And then he tells them what they've been wanting to hear. The women are on the roof of their building in the water tower.

Oh my god. So when they get to that, this is my question.

Were they in the water like a pool for days in the in like cold New York weather, in water.

I think sometimes water towers are empty because they're old and people don't use water towers anymore. I don't know, Like I don't know what. Yeah, because I have a water tower tattoo.

It's part of my It's one of my favorite things about New York and New York US outside of just straight up skyline is Like I love seeing all the water towers on buildings.

I think it's so pretty.

But then remember when they come out, they're not soaking wet, so I don't they're like because they're freezing. I think it's just like literally empty and they're just sitting in it, like you.

Even get in it?

Like is there a door? A code? How do you you pop the top?

Like, I don't know.

But isn't that where they found the girl from that? That's what I was about to say, But she drowned. The hotel Seesoul girl drowned. Yeah, so there was water in there.

Yeah, but there also must be a way to get in then, like that girl got into it.

You know, or was there there you never? Yeah, well, we don't know, we don't know.

It wasn't there a Chicago one like that too? Or was she found somewhere else? There was like a black woman that disappeared and is social gathering with all white peo.

I mean this happens often.

Yeah, because there was also like a sleepover whereas all white women, one black woman and she's disappeared and no one's invested, gated the case or done anything, and like that's the weirdest fucking case. Yeah, I mean not, but it's like clearly something happened and these white women did something like the one black person is no longer alive or found or any or what.

And I feel like that happened.

In Chicago, there was like a party young people and the like girls were found in the water tower. I'm just it's scary because because they were blue and shivering, I definitely thought they were in water, but I think it was.

Just because it was freezing out. It's winter and they're just freezing and he's kept them there. If they were in water, I feel like they would have died quicker. Like I think you would be absolutely like frozen. And also like I don't know, wouldn't wouldn't the water freeze? Maybe they empty those water towers in the winter so it doesn't free I really don't know.

I have no idea.

It seemed like an old water tower, but they didn't seem wet coming out either way.

Horrifying.

I mean, it seems like they said that they were like close to death these ways. And that's that scene like is like etched in my brain, like I always remember the two girls coming out of the water tower from the show. It's from this episode, Like it's so scary.

We never see him again. Apparently he doesn't really want to know why what.

Makes people freaks, because he pieces right the fuck out, Or maybe that actor got another job. I don't know, but yeah, I'm excited for you to tell me about the real crime Lesa, because I know nothing.

You're not going to be excited once we get out.

Oh, why it's bad, okay, okay, yeah, of course it's bad. What did you just think about what you just told me? But I like hearing about crimes. But it's gonna be bad, okay, And it's gonna be bad.

All right.

Don't go anywhere, listen to our advertisements, and we'll be right back.

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So this crime is called the nicknamed the Wichita massacre, and it took me days of research to finally learn how to spell wichita and massacre. I was spelling both those words just like flying off the seat in my pain.

I'm like, I don't know how to say these things. So but I did learn how to spell both.

So it's two brothers like this, and listen, they are hot, like I don't know which ones, which one is like dreads one doesn't.

And they are kind of good looking.

So it's kind of like the show, you know what I mean, Like two good looking young men. So at the time, So their names are Reginald D. Car and Jonathan D. Car And they were twenty two and twenty at the time of the crime, so again very young. They moved from Dodge city to Wichita and quickly started committing crimes. So December two thousand, these brothers committed crimes that ended in one of the most fucked up crimes I've ever read. And we read a lot of fucked

Put them there. It's bad.

So December seventh, they started. They carjacked a Wichita State University baseball player whose name is Andrew Schreiber. They approached him at gunpoint in a come and go convenience store.

Did you have to know was come and go?

No?

Did I want to say it? Of course? So why is it allowed to be called that? I hate it? I hate when I say those I know. I hate it for me. It's like, put give me merch. I don't care. Well, I used to have a lighter. I used to have a come and go lighter.

For some reason, I knew that, and he was gonna he was there to get some skull. You know, he's a baseball player. He just wanted some chewing tobacco. And they made him drive around, cruising the area and stopping at ATMs withdrawing money until his card stopped taking transactions. Luckily, he got away unarmed, unharmed. They just shot out the tires of his car and kind of left him in

Yeah?

Like ATMs are where there's cameras. Yeah, like every ATM. Oh they were, they sent him. They probably sat in the car. Yeah, that's what it was because with them, Yeah, because I was like, why don't they have any footage? But they were in the car. So then December eleventh, round five thirty pm, fifty five year old cellist An Wallenta was driving to her house and she did see a light sedan was following, didn't think much of it.

I just wanted to touch on her.

We talked so much about the killers and their pursuits, like it's nice to kind of have some information about these victims. Sadly that we lost. And she taught me music in public schools in Texas and Oklahoma, was a cello instructor at Friends University and gave private lessons, and she played in the symphony and was a group's librarian as well. For the symphony, and she just seemed like an accomplished woman. So those two crimes happened, and now

Like wild that you're like just having a night with my friends before I become a nun.

I don't know, it's just interesting.

You know, nuns, did you not watch Sister Act. Nuns like to have a good time too.

Yeah, and Sister Act, I'm sure.

I was talking to someone recently that was talking about Kathyen and Jimmy and how that's like one of the best comedic performances of all time and how like she was the star but like not overpowered. Like someone was talking about that performance in such a detail that I really appreciate love listening to me.

I do too.

I loved recently the clip went circulating where she was like protecting witches on the news when hocus Pocus it came out in nineteen ninety four. She's like, well, we don't want to stereotype witches, and it was like a

I don't do it. I don't do it.

I'd rather seem like a bigot, like I'm not allowing someone into a building, so not that someone did this, I'm like accusing someone.

In two thousand of doing something bad.

But anyways, they got into the building that there were guns and golf clubs where the weapons of choice. They wrangled the friends into one room and began scouring the place for valuables. The prosecution also said that the men separated the friends and then each of the like the group feared that if they attacked one intruder, then the friends would be harmed. And so I'm not really sure if they were in one room or separated. A lot of the accounts are it could have been all of it.

Oh okay, good, you were licking your hairw.

I'm like, I'm like doing a mustache.

Okay, well from here it was like you were licking it, and I was like, we're gonna have to my.

God, tell me more about the murder. Ah. You were truly chewing on your hair, and I'm like, I can't. I can't. My hair cannot be in my mouth at all. I've never been a hair cheer.

And I'm sorry this is like such a horrific case. But the hair did distract me, and I'm sorry I went off all in that tangent about not letting people into buildings, but it is important to me. So I don't know exactly, you know where they were configured, but they were looking for valuables and then they found an engagement ring under the bed and demanded they say it who belonged?

Who it belonged?

To and that's how HG found out that her boyfriend was going to propose to her. Oh my god, and he said he was going to do it on like Christmas. So they found the engagement ring and they're like tied up in this horrific situation.

It's bad.

The brothers then took three of the people with debit cards to ATMs one by one in a car, maxing out their cash withdrawals. By midnight one am ish, they withdrew sixteen hundred dollars and then the true horror began. So once they came back to the apartment, they forced them to strip naked and perform sex sex on one

Oh my god. And this was for more than an hour.

And then they stuffed three men into a trunk of Sanders car and that is one of the people in the apartment. And then, according to testimony, one brother drove with Mueller sitting in the passenger seat while the other brother took HG with him in Bethfort's silver Dodge pickup. So they took two cars and they drove all five victims still naked, to a snowy soccer field, then shot them all in the head execution style. So they made

She did survive.

Her hair clip deflected the bullet. Wow.

But then these psychopaths ran over the body is in a pickup truck.

She still survived.

Then, naked and barefoot, ran for over a mile through snow and barbed wire to seek help. While she's like running to save her life. The brothers then returned to the house and ransacked it for more valuables, and then they beat the dog to death with a golf club and shot it. Oh my gods, And not that this fully matters, it is really sad, but it was like the surviving woman's dog, so it's like.

God. Yeah.

So while she was running, she started pounding on a door of a couple and when they opened the door, they saw a naked woman bleeding from the head and sub zero temperature, so they did let her in. She said, let me tell you my story before I die. So she did a testimony to them, like a living testimony, and she was crying. The homicide detective Ken Launder of the Wichita Police Department said to the Laurence Journal World that he could not thank the survivor enough for starting

It's just so kind of twisted now if you want to be really mad.

Reginald should have been in prison at the time of these murders, but was released early because of math mistakes made by two parole officers.

Oh my god.

One day later, a police task force brought the brothers in. When they were arrested, Reginald had Heather Mueller's watch in his pocket, along with Jason beth For's credit card and nearly one thousand dollars in his pockets. Jonathan Carr's leather jacket was found with the diamond ring with the engagement ring. HG was in the hospital and was able to identify Reginald as one of her attackers. The brothers accused the

There was just no evidence connecting him.

They just couldn't connect him to that crime, even though the same gun was used in all three crimes. But Andrew's watch was found in Reginald's apartment, and they couldn't really tie Jonathan to that crime with couldn't.

Andrew say, yeah, I wonder why anyway.

Yeah, I'm sure they had him on plenty, but you know, it's jury's I don't know. During closing arguments, each of the lawyers blamed the other brother for the crimes. Jonathan's attorney said Jonathan was innocent of some of the crimes and Reginald was the leader in the quadruple murder, and Reginald's attorney contended that most of the DNA evidence pointed

And it's like, honey, read the room, what are you talking about.

Why don't you go tell your priests that, tell your sister you do not go to the fucking victims family and say that they're good boys and their murders were a mistake. That's like so fucked to me. But I guess that's what you do if you're a parent, like I don't.

I guess she was just kind of like, obviously, lock them up, but don't kill them.

I don't know. I don't believe in death penalties, so yeah, you know.

But I also wonder if this made it worse for the brothers, Like if I was on the jury, I would be like, go fuck yourself. Janice Harding, the mother said, I know other families out there probably hating me to death. I'm sorry for them, but spare my children. I love them just as much as you would love your children. I believe there is good in them, there's just something that went wrong along the way. She then turned to them, I don't know what went wrong, but I love you.

Wow. The attorneys asked.

Jurors to show their clients mercy and blame the brother's troubled childhood and dysfunctional family for their problems.

And I'll touch on this later.

And it's not like it's a competition, but I was trying to find like, what happened to them? Is it not stalker? Is it Richard Ramirez? Like what was going on? And I don't know, not that it excuses the crimes, but it was very much like the parents got divorced into drugs.

A lot of people don't murder after that.

It's just like I was expecting very horrific things to be read like that. I was going to read about these two brothers to kind of put it together, because even with Richard Ramirez, when I think about it, I'm like, yeah, how else were you gonna turn out?

So I don't know.

He said that Reginald was brain damaged from the things that happened to him in childhood, and to think of his three children, and it's like, well, they could have thought of their own kids.

How about that.

Nola Felston, the DA was like, I'm sorry, there is no excuse for an individual's conduct. You can't blame your family for what went wrong in your life, and she read that. After the verdict was read, the other defense lawyer said that Jonathan didn't have any issues with the law before the spree and that there is still good in him.

Jonathan was troubled.

He tried to take his own life when he was seven and then again at sixteen, so obviously something.

Was going on with him. Oh my god.

You know, like I said, it was a dysfunctional family. They fought, they drank, and they drugged in front of the kids. And I'm not here to like diminish what that what those effects are on people and the future. It's just like the heinous nature of this crime. I really thought, I was, Yeah.

But if he I mean, honestly, if the older brother had brain damage, it's like sometimes I think with head injuries, it's like, yeah, you don't even have an idea of what is right and wrong and what is bad.

I don't know.

Yeah, and then it seems like the young the younger one could have just been like I was following my brother.

I don't know.

Yeah, it's like making sense of the truly senseless.

Yeah. Yeah.

He also said that he felt bad for his client, this defense attorney, because he liked him. He goes, that's the truth. I like him, and it's like, okay, bro, wow. Reginald's lawyer had a great line. He said, I asked I asked you to extend mercy to Reginald Carr that he did not extend to those four young individuals. The DA Nola Falsten, was like, sentence them to death. I don't give a fuck. She goes, we know from the evidence they committed these crimes because they wanted to, and

Whow they were.

Sentenced to death on November fifteenth, but you know how that goes. It's appeals and pauses, and then actually just this past year, the death penalty is back on with these brothers, and we're talking twenty years.

I mean, what is the point of death sentences? I really don't get it.

So in twenty fourteen, the convictions were held up, but the court overturned their death sentences, concluding that not having separate hearings violated the US Constitution. The US Supreme Court, though, reversed that decision in twenty sixteen and returned the case back to the Kansas court. January twenty twenty two, the Kansas Supreme Court stopped the pause and said death penalty

Their argument was rejected.

I mean, it's it's a bad argument, but I disagree with the death penalty, so.

You know, yeah, I don't know.

And it was found that the brothers had fair Trials. Attorney General Derek Schmidt described the decision as an important milestone and signaled that the brothers are running out of appeal options. So throughout, like looking for information on this case was really hard. It took me a while and like a lot of days of digging, And a big part of that is because the judge, Rebecca Pilshaw, enacted a gag order to the witnesses, said the less that is said about these things, the better, ob for all

So I don't know if it's credible or if it's like one of.

These people's family, but it yeah, a virtual media blackout. I think it was probably to protect the surviving witnesses Shreiburn HG. But maybe it was like for Kansas's reputation. I'm not really sure. I'm not sure because this is such a horrific crime. I mean, it's nicknamed a massacre, like where is it? Like it is confusing and then a part of me is like, is it because they're black dudes?

Like that?

No one, I don't. I don't know.

Also, a lot of people think that they have had hate crimes added to it since all their victims were white, but no evidence was found of hate crime, and so that was kind of a controversial thing at the time as well.

But like, they were found guilty on hundreds of charges, Like, don't they get found guilty on the cello players murder too?

Yeah?

Yeah, I mean I think I'm gonna cover maybe not, okay, yeah, yes, absolutely, because she also was able to give her testimony before she died. So the brothers are now an administrative segregation at the El Dorado Facility, which means they're kept in a cell twenty three hours a day and only get one hour for exercise.

In a secure pen.

In an article from twenty fourteen in the Topeka Capital Journal, said that Reginald had eleven disciplinary violations and Jonathan had twenty three since they entered the prison system in November of two thousand and two. So to me, it's like the idea that one brother is good and the other is bad is nulled with this too, since they're causing all this chaos in the prison.

Yeah, but I don't know.

You're in jail for twenty three hours a day with by yourself, with that's like how you treat it, Like I want to say, like an animal, But I don't even think people treat animals that way. I mean, like that's a disgusting way to treat people, and even people who've committed heinous crimes and so, like I who knows what their violations are. They're probably they have no idea how to interact in the real world.

But my thing is, if you're against the death penalty and against this kind of custody, where do people that commit such heinous crimes like this, Like what what do they get?

No?

I know, it's a great question.

I just don't think like solitary is the move like I thought we'd like to sell, Like there's all these documentaries about how solitary Like, yes, and it fits people up even more, it fucks people up, and it's not okay if someone's gonna eventually get out or our goal is rehabilitation or anything like that. But if you're in for life, what do you do with these people that can't be trusted?

I don't know.

I guess I don't know the answer to that, but y, yeah, like what is like, what are you know? We can't all stay at OZ, Like what.

You know, I've never seen OZ, so I don't really know what.

Oh like like it's like they're all clear pods, like clear doors.

And they all get to hang out. It's general pop like it's an experimental prison. So they all get to hang out and play basketball and they're all the doors are glass and they get to just like kind of wander around.

Wow, I didn't even know that.

We talked about OZ so much on this podcast and we've like never I've never just gotten the general gist of OZ.

I thought it was just like a prison show. It was like a fun little pod show.

But it was like Love is Blind before Love Is Blind.

Yeah, well I heard the season of Love it Is Blind is so I don't think I can watch it.

I heard it's like really fucked.

I heard it's just people with obvious issues forcing things and a lot of red flags, a lot of just like dangerous oh no vibes for people. And I think the first season was great like most reality TV.

Yeah, yeah, Downhill.

So I don't but I don't know like, I just I don't know if like, did we ever like the one boy, this was his first ever crimes, like, or do we know that he's completely unreal even though this is a heinous crime.

Do we know he's beyond rehabilitation?

But if they're not going to leave prison, do we need to really rehabilitate people.

I don't know.

Then it's like we're not treating people like people like you can still live inside of prison, if like we're going to keep you in prison for twenty plus years, twenty three hours a day by yourself.

Listen, there's a non character in oz and you sound a lot like her.

Okay, and do you know who plays her? I think it's Rita Moreno, hold on, oh I love her?

Yes? Okay?

Good? No?

And you know, I feel like I'm also against the death penalty, but I'm like, kill these motherfuckers in the most tainous way possible.

I don't give a fuck. It's like tough.

I mean, yeah, I'm not really, But then it's like, fine, we won't kill them, but then what they get to play par cheesy in jail with their friends.

I don't like that either. No, Like I think they should suffer.

Yeah, Most of the violations, though, were for possessing sexually explicit material, which I think should be allowed.

That's just me, but that's what I'm saying.

I'm like, when you see twenty three violations versus eleven, like, what are they four? Talking back to an officer, I mean, it's like some of them, you know, might just be bullshit. So that's like, that's all I was trying to say about that specific thing.

But for sure, But to me, I'm like, Okay, can you let them look at porn?

Like, yeah, what they have? Nothing?

Like?

Let them at least get their jollies off? Okay.

So and then so you think they shouldn't be able to play part cheesy, but they should be able to jerk off with graphic porn. Yes, with full on piss porn, yeah, okay, at least a picture.

They can't get a playboy. I don't know.

And I don't think you're allowed to even jerk off in prison, Like I think you get in trouble for that too. Really, I think I don't I could have made that up, but I feel like that might be a thing that they try to do. So anyways, and of course, these men are on dating sites for death row people and law unfortunate expert. We've talked about this a lot, but we didn't find the I don't know if we've ever talked about the reasons or like how this all works and stuff. So I just have like

Wow.

Yeah. And this personal ad.

Site is run by a Canadian coalition against the death penalty. And this is from the Lawrence Journal World two thousand and seven. It was hard to find shit. Oh the fucking Wichita Eagle. Let me tell you about this. So I'm trying to get articles in the Witchita Eagle. It won't let me in, so I pay. I'm like, fine, I'll pay. Then I try to get back in. They won't let me in because it takes two days for the subscription to go through. And I said, but I

Good luck girl.

You're paying for that Wichita Eagle subscription until you're dead.

I know, but I'm like, how do you? And I told him, like, this is a fucking scam. IDM them. I'm like, you cannot tell me.

You tell me I should sign up to read an article, and I do it, and then I have to wait a grace.

Period what I can.

But I can buy a gun, but I can't look at this article from two thousand and five. O them goes through for a dollar. The introductory rate is a dollar a month. Fuck the Eagle. So that's why I'm at Lawrence Journal World, you know what I mean. So this guy also says that he enjoys reading, drawing, writing, reading poetry, working out, and conversing about politics.

And it's like, I think you forgot rape and murder. But okay, but he was popular. I told you he was. Fuck they're fucking hot. And so he got nudes and cards and lots of stuff. So a US Department of Justice studies show that two thirds of the inmates who post ads will accurately describe their conditions and their crimes, but violent offenders convicted of murder and rape are most likely to lie. Sheila Eisenberg, author of the book Women Who Marry Men Who Kill.

Sage We recommend it as of what would Sister peg do? Did episodes ago?

Oh my god? So do we already talk about this? I didn't know that.

So she says that many women who answer the ads find safety in a man who is locked away and can't hurt her, oh, and is in control of the relationship, unlike in the past when they were abused. But she goes, this is not love though, This is not love. This is like about control and games and trauma. And also if all of this is interesting to you, you can order an eighty page copy of the Wichita massacre survivor's

And yes, and that has.

Been confirmed through its a few different sites I found and I did do digging in social media and stuff.

I want to protect everyone's privacy. But the survivor from the carjacking and HG did marry.

That's kind of nice.

I mean, it feels like it would be like a reminder, but it's also like one of the only people could understand, like the terror that you went through.

Wow.

Yeah, So that's like a kind of nice end to a horrific crime. And if you want more information, I'm a member of the Wichita Eagle now so I can put some more articles up for you.

We'll be linking to the Witchita Eagle. Amazing, Lisa, thank you for doing that research. That does sound like a really really awful crime.

And the driving over.

It's just the excessiveness, not that any crime is not. It's like what the fuck, yeah.

Because it's like, yeah, I guess I don't know, but to me, that's like that's like there's a sociopathy there of like they didn't think about these people as people or whatever. They were just like, yeah, we're just here to play with you and then kill you, you know, so something's going on deeper with them.

And like we always say, thank God, we have a fucking great guest. We've been waiting for this guest since probably the start of this podcast, so buckle up.

Okay, guys, our guest today, Svu Royalty. We have been wanting to get this person since the moment we started this podcast.

She's an actor.

She's worked in pr and most importantly, from two thousand and three to twenty eleven, she portrayed the one and only CSU Captain Judith Ciper. Guys, enjoy our convo with the Queen Karen Browning.

Karen, this is a very long time in the making.

I feel, oh, it's first of all, we just don't we have to start with saying, oh my gosh to my my niece Beth, because I think she's the one who got this all together, didn't.

She Yes, And we just met her in person, I think in Raleigh where she lives.

Yep, she sent me a photograph you all looked really bitch, and it was awesome, amazing.

She is one of the reasons that we have you.

I feel like because she has a meeting from the beginning been like, you got to get my aunt on and we're like, we.

Would die to have her. So here we are.

We were waiting for the perfect episode, and I feel like we kind of got it because this is your first episode as Detective Judas Cipher, but not your first SVU episode, correct, because you played other you played a Law and Order character and then an SVU character before you became this character.

That's correct.

Yes, I've had a storied past with these wonderful people.

So so how did that work out? You just you just like auditioned and did a Law and Order and then you did and then to get this part. Did they just say, hey, we have this part we have in mind for you, or did you audition to get the Judith part even after you'd already done a part on S for you?

Okay?

I love telling this story and it's you know, when I was just you know, I was in New York in the heyday of my you know, acting experience. Everybody was wanted to be on Law and Order, any kind of Law and Order whatever it was, right, and they said, you know, you have to audition like five times or

No one is encouraging me. That's not right.

So they ended up bringing me in to do a law and order, which was I think is one of Marishka's. I'm trying to remember it now exactly what happened. Was it a regular law and order there? I think it was a regular law and order where I was in the courtroom and something horrible had happened to my cop husband.

And the Ted told me later.

That it was just I had like zero lines, hardly any lines of a couple of small scenes in the beginning, and he said, you.

Know, it was your eyes. I could tell you were.

Listening by just watching your eyes when you're in the courtroom and they're talking about your husband. So that's how I kind of got started with the first Law and Order episode, and then.

They brought me on.

I guess it was for this episode or I was thinking it was Uncivilized, but I can't remember now which episode it was. So you guys probably the true fact people that you are.

I'm sure you might know it, but I think so.

I think that's what I was because I was just looking up your whole history yesterday. But yeah, you on SVU, your Law and Order was called Burn Baby Burn, and then your SVU, well you did two svus. Actually, it looks like you did one called Mercy and one called Uncivilized.

Yeah, and that's part of the story of Judith Ciper too, because here's how that here's what is part of that story. When they were writing this role, they didn't have the character Judith Ciper created yet. So in my past, I mean, my day jobs working in the theater in New York always had to do with healthcare. I somehow got jobs working in pr in healthcare, which is what I still do actually, and so consequently I was able to say

Cooler or something.

This is the Tay Sacs episode.

Yeah, yes, yeah, so that one they called her doctor.

I forget what they.

Called Sheila something.

Oh, yes, Hila Johnson or something like that.

Yeah, Sheila queen, Sheila queen, a queen that sounds like us drag name.

I love that, right, and I could be only if only, if only it was a drag name. Anyway, that show, I think got me into the next role in the next occurrence. And then after the first few episodes went well, they kept me as Judith Ciper and I just called myself Captain Judy.

Well, it's amazing because we talked to Ruby Morales Joel Delafuente and he was saying, how learning the language and the technical stuff while walking and talking is kind of hard to memorize all of that, And it's so cool you kind of had the language and the shorthand already.

Right, you are so right, But it is that is the you know people used to People still say to me, oh.

My gosh, that's such an interesting character. What do you do? How do you do it?

And I'm always like, honey, all I am trying to do is remember what I'm supposed to say and be in the right place at the right moment and look at the right thing.

You know.

That's that's that gives you kind of a The seriousness I think that Cipher has on camera really honestly comes from just trying not to screw up.

But interesting, you meant, yeah, I think Kara's about to say the same thing. It's it's weird you mentioned the serious because she's kind of funny.

Yesna say the exact same thing. I was like, it's funny that you say that because they have had a couple of people on the show at I won't name names because I can't remember the names because they've had people on for like one episode that'll be like the retraction of the DNA was like and they just kind of read it all very robotic, and you know, you don't really get.

A sense of them at all. You're just like, oh, that's a lab coat person.

And I do feel like your character kind of the reason why you had staying power is because you had like a lightness to you, or you'd or you'd be kind of like, I don't know, I've always felt like you were joking with the cops too, Like.

I love you for saying that.

You just made my day. It's maybe who I am a little bit. I don't know, but that's kind of how I survived. It's so it happened so fast, and there's so much on the line for everybody. I mean, the you know, these productions cost a lot of money to make and they can't get behind schedule. So if you come in and you have to do eight takes of your four line scene, you're going to be in bit. Yeah, you know, big trouble. So I tried to get it done. And I will say this, you know, you can't say

They were just so amazing.

And then of course when I got finished and I was like, I'll never go to work again. You know, they had me back on the show, so they were very supportive and so I don't know, I lost track of what I was saying there about that's amazing.

Now, that's so cool because they could have just been like, all right, we need to find someone else to play this character, because that was towards the beginning two thousand and three was towards the beginning of your ten year old show, so all ly been doing it.

So it's you know, I think the bottom line there is they're really human beings and there's a lot on the line for them, and everybody were really hard.

Together, you know.

The I guess of all the people on the show, I've always wanted to sort of give a big shout out to Iced Tea because he would say weirt, I.

Love you for that.

He was the one who kept me grounded because I was, you know, incredibly nervous, but he would just say, you know, he would just say something. I don't even know if I can even remember. One episode I liked to talk about with my pals is I was down in some you know, entrance to some apartment building, coming up steps like metal steps, and I had to walk to the corner and say to Chris Maloney, we'll check the luds. We'll just take this phone and check the luds or something.

And then it was my part.

So I had two seconds, but I had to be perfect with it. And when I came up there there was We had to do a couple takes of this last part with my line, and I think Chris was talking, was on a phone or something, and he didn't put the phone down, and he didn't put the phone down, and he didn't put the phone down. I was like, I have to be I have to speak now. And then of course at the right moment he takes the phone down and there.

He is one hundred percent. You know, that's no. He was just kind of amazing and always there.

They're always there amazing.

Do you have any funny like stories or memories that you think our listeners and we would, you know, be excited to hear about the main cast. Any yeah, any cute moments, silly moments.

I like being in the bathroom with Richard Belzer. You know Belzer has he has his own dry personality, so that was kind of fun. Again my heart was thumping. And therey where we did a bathroom scene checking around the back the toilet.

I mean, it doesn't get.

Much better than that, really, And also being in the dressing room the makeup room with people like Christine Baranski and you know, all these amazing actresses that you admire so much.

I always enjoyed doing that.

And the people who work on the show, actually, the the the hair dressers and the makeup folks, they're just they're so reassuring and so real.

I always just really.

Love woll And They have the best gossip hair and makeups where you want to be.

Yes, now, I am not a huge gossip person, but I will say that I still use Laura Mercy.

Is it Mercy or Mercier or ye Mercy, yeah, Mercier.

I still use tinted moisturizer, which the people in that makeup room gave to me and I will never not use it.

I use it too. All become so funny.

I use nars and the makeup girl on the show I'm on right now said you got to switch to Laura Mercier like legit this week.

That's what I was told. I can't believe it.

It's amazing and you great, thank you.

I stayed out kind of late yesterday, so her saying that, did you and Tamaratuny Melinda Warner of her cross Paths, I feel like you guys sort of fulfill a similar role in the show. And I wonder if they, like, never really had you on together, but did they have.

She's kind of fun.

She kind of is spunky too, like you guys are the spunky scientists.

She is amazing.

I was.

I think I was in a couple episodes with her, and it was I don't know if it was actually the one that I was just telling you about, where there was a long shot the person was down at the end of the street and then they walk up and they see different people, so they go to uh Warner and then they come on.

Up to me.

It was mostly like that, so we would pass in the halls and things like that.

I didn't she she went to school with.

One of my best friends, Georgia, and so when I've seen her in you know, out at Playwrights Horizons or someplace like that, we always say hi and hug and she's really great too. But ill it just like a lot of New York actors. I'm sorry, I can just plug New York actors, right, of course. I think they're just everybody is glad to have their jobs, right, We're all glad to be employed. And these people really have the energy of the show in them, and they're always kind.

And you know you can see him working that up while we're there.

Yeah, we heard the stretches a lot.

He does.

He does confirming.

They also will.

Go and talk to the to Dick like sometimes they'll call, they'll call, you know, and they'll talk to people, they'll talk to the script writers, and you're like, oh my god.

I'm so bad. They're calling to say, can we get rid of Judy Cipher right now? But I don't think that's what they're doing.

No, And do you ever watch any of the episodes erre In.

I used to watch them more, but to be honest, no, because I always I always thought I sucked.

I never thought it was really.

Good, and so I'd be embarrassed to watch myself, thinking, oh gosh, that took me so long to get that out out of my mouth or whatever.

But you know, ah, you're so well because I'm looking at the list of that episode z're in, and you're in some scary ones too, like Signature. I don't know if you remember that one, that one with Erica Christiansen. Oh yeah, oh my god, that one was like I still have nightmares about that one.

It's funny when you walk into the sets like you you know, you might I don't. You might know that you've got a scene in a closet and they've got you know, sex toys all over the place, or you know, something really horrible has happened or has you know happened around you or what you're walking into and that no, I think is you prepare those things really are in your psyche as you do it.

But wait, that reminds me of a question.

So how like you've been around the dead bodies, the actors playing the dead bodies.

So how how do they function? Like do they get up? Do they have to stand still throughout? Like what's it like to be a dead body and interact with the dead bodies that are alive?

You know, that's a great question.

Adam Rapp, I was thinking about a scene that we did in a house with I was a in a bedroom towards the end of the episode with b. D.

Wong and Adam Rapp was the dead body. Oh.

We talked to him about this, We had him on the podcast and he was like, they made me sit in that blood for so long and he was pissed at Maloney.

He did a great job. He was still absolutely still on the stretcher. I think he on the stretcher up there. If I've got it, my memory might not be the same as he's got it. But yeah, in my experience, the people, you know, you take it seriously what you're doing Yeah, if only the leaders of our country would take as seriously what we do with dead bodies on the lawn and Order SVU.

Oh my my gosh, that is so funny.

Sweet can I ask?

So?

I was like obviously looking you up, and it seems like you done. You've done some theater and stuff, but you're also the executive vice president and partner of a PR firm.

Yes.

I just took a new job in January of this year, but I worked for ten years twelve no, actually fifteen years with a small PR firm called King In Company. And my boss, Hi, Judith, would be crazy if I didn't say say thing about her. It was actually her fiftieth birthday was the final episode that I recorded for Law and Order SVU so far, So that was always

So I really enjoy doing that.

That's awesome.

And then so you would just be like, Okay, I got a Law and Order, I got to be off work for a couple of days or what, Yeah, or usually I.

Could do it within three to five hours. So sometimes I would, you know, and they're really pretty good about keeping you on schedule. But I would take the afternoon off and I usually usually got everything done in one day. Sometimes I would have it, you know, it'd be back to back days, which didn't work out so well if

Oh that's so cool.

We have a friend who just got cast on SNL but they were working at a notebook shop, and so then the notebook store had to text and be like are you You're not coming back, right? And you were like, sorry, I forgot to tell them I'm not coming back, and yeah, but the notebook storees like we're excited, but bye. Well, So, as you know, we do try to stalk you online. Do you is it you or not? Do you have you put on YouTube videos with fish tanks? Are you into fish tanks?

I saw this question in the outline and I was like, what, Okay, yes, great, I don't know that I did.

This on YouTube?

And I'm hoping that it's the same thing that I have photographed. I used to have a fish called Einstein, and if you've seen the YouTube, his head had a you know, thing that looked like an exterior brain.

So yes, yeah, there's some clips of the fish that's out there that happens.

I don't even this is I have no idea, but whatever.

Did you interact with the young men that played the criminals and their dad, like, did you have did you meet them at all?

No? No, not at all.

I don't think I was ever and that was There were times when I hate to admit this, because no actress worth her sault really will, but I will there were times where I did. This all came together so fast that I didn't even have all of the script in my head, so I didn't know. I certainly didn't know what was I think it was Cooper?

Is it Bradley Cooper?

Yes?

Thank you, I'm sorry, Okay, the biggest star of all time?

All right? Hello? And I can't remember his name?

Well so did I, Like, I feel so silly, but yes, Bradley Cooper.

Bradley Cooper and I got to ride home in the van with him that night. It was a cold, snowy night, and I was like, very warm.

It was very nice.

Do you ever get recognized by SVU fans in the streets?

Yes, And I have to say this has been the most unexpected.

It's been so interesting.

Like I remember where was I in Missouri or somewhere and I was returning a car, an enterprise rental car in some you know, in some Midwest state, and someone came up to me and this actually this woman said I think this woman asked me if I was on SVU or Usually the way the conversation goes is, do what have I seen you before?

Do you know? Do I know you?

And I'll say, well, don't, I don't know. But have you ever watched Law and Order SVU? And they'll say all the time or whatever you know, and then they'll they'll go.

Oh my god, you were on that.

Haha.

There was a lady in Macy's once who got it right like, she said, are you on Law and Order SVU?

Right away? She got it like that.

I didn't get a discount, but you know, oh.

Come on, and you know your name, Karen has become controversial in the past couple of years.

Now you're spelled with a C.

And do you feel like do you tell people that all the time, like Karen with a C?

I told somebody that within the last twenty four hours.

Yeah, you gotta let them know you do, because I mean.

There's a big, big difference. I mean, you've now you've talked to me for a few minutes.

You know, I'm not like that.

I'm not. You're not calling the manager, we get it.

No, I am not.

I would be busting the manager's ass if that's it. I wouldn't call the manager. I'd go right to the CEO.

This was awesome. Thank you so much.

Do you have any final thoughts or things that you would love to let the audience know, or where to find you or anything like that.

I would just say to you, guys, and to all the people that are listening, First of all, I love what you do, and I think that you both are so wonderful and spirited and fun and you make everybody else who watches and listens who listens to you. You make everybody who listens to you really feel that way too, And I feel like we live in a time where that is so important that kudos to you.

Thanks for doing this.

You ca Wow, that's so nice.

We're coming up on Thanksgiving, who knows.

Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, any last minute like tidbits you want to throw out before we this has been great, but we can let you get on with the rest of your day and just.

Say thanks to Beth for yees. Yes, Beth is so amazing.

I mean, look, you meet people in your life and you have a relationship with them at one point, and then ten, fifteen, twenty years later they come back into your life and look what happens it really, I mean, I would say that's my philosophy is you never know and don't give up.

Yeah. Perfect, and yeah, oh man, she's so fun. I just love that she loved doing it and what a fun character. One of those characters that's just like, yeah, they're not in the credits at the beginning, but they make the show.

You know.

Yeah, we need science to solve the crimes we need and we need a little joke to give us levity when there's a dead body splayed out, and she's the one to give it to us. And she's been a staple throughout the seasons and I just really enjoyed her. And thank you to her niece that made this all happen. Yeah, oh my gosh, yes, her niece that we saw in Raleigh. Thank you so much for putting it all together. I mean, I don't know what we do for a post mortem on this.

It's like, don't listen to your brother when he but I guess he was fully abused, So I don't know what to say.

He was abusing the dad too.

But in terms of the real like, there's really nothing it is. It is beyond sadistic what happened to these people.

I was happy that she got married to that guy. That was like a nice little silver lining of a really horrific thing.

Yeah, I'm glad they found love.

But just.

It's really sobering.

I don't know, I really hated that crime, not that I love any of them at all. You know, what was fun when we talked about microchips for our four to twenty episode, that was.

Now, that was a good time. Oh.

I guess one thing is I guess sometimes it pays to be a snob and take a cab, right. Those people just fully missed getting the shit murdered out of them.

Like, Oh, speaking of microchips, though, last night in the hotel, I was watching Shark Tank compilations as you do. Well, it was a full episode, but then it was like an old episode of like it's our ten year anniverse or one hundredth episode, and they were reliving like the biggest hits, the biggest moneymakers, their favorite presentations, and then it was like, let's roast these losers, and so they were like making fun of the worst presentations on Shark

We're not incisioning and putting little microchips in when we did the research you went into like your hand, well yeah this was I don't even know what he was trying to do, but it was something to put behind your ear.

And the sharks were all like hysterically then laughing at him and like they just incision.

I like that.

Yeah, they really couldn't believe it. But I do love shark tanks so fucking much. You know, well, you know, I just like when people's dreams come true. Yeah, and people's dreams come true there.

Yeah, and it's for having a good idea, yeah, and little k and I like seeing the products out and about. But this is not a Shark Tank podcast, but maybe we could start one.

I wish it was.

You know, Jared Freed knows the Bantam bagel people. You're an idiot.

No, I'm kidding. She just she shook her head. Now what you know what?

There was a review on the podcast that says, why does Lisa hate Kara?

And I don't think Lisa hates.

Me, but I do think when you tell me that I'm an idiot for not knowing what Bantam bagels is, it might be what people are talking about. Yeah, there is a review that says, I hate Kara, but then they gave five stars.

Like they didn't mind that I hated you.

Why does Carra Lisa hate Kara? I?

Yeah, I don't at all.

But this is this This could be used against me in the court of law for sure. No, there's these little bagel balls with cream cheese filled in them, and then they had their own little brick and mortar in New York, and then Starbucks licensed it, and then they just sold the company, but being in every Starbucks store is huge. And then they had frozen ones whatever. But they asked our friend Jared to invest in the beginning and he didn't and he he doesn't love that regrets.

Gotta be open to that kind of stuff.

Jay Train.

Now he's just sports gambling.

I feel like a lot of men in my life have gotten very into sports gambling lately.

I can name four right now.

Really yeah, people, I think it's like pre depression, post COVID. Everyone's just like trying to get a nut off, and so they just cause I'm just out and about. Or I was in a green room and a comic was watching a fight and he was like, oh, I'm like what the fuck? And then I went, did you bet money on this fight?

And he did?

And that's what happens now. And then our friend's boyfriend was like, Okay, I gotta go to the bar. I'm gonna meet you guys later. I got to watch the end of this game and I was like, did you just bet? What is happening?

But you know, in this last midterms, I think a lot of the measures for that would loosen up sports betting and a lot of States didn't pass, so I think a lot of people don't want that to become a big thing.

No, I'm sure it's all the wives that are like, can you not spend our kids college money?

Yeah, that's true.

That's true because I just heard of another secret divorce and someone told me not to tell anyone, so I forgot who it was.

But gambling is what's caused it. Yeah, thank god. My husband is so scared of gambling. He watches me do it and he's like, please stop.

I'm the problem. It's me.

No, Karasa, she's addicted to gambling. I go, No, you're not, should go and it's like, no, an addiction could be something you do once every two years, because once I'm there, I don't stop.

When I'm there, I'm super laser focused and I'm crazy. But I will say I always say I'm addicted to gambling in so far as you can be addicted as something you do every two years.

And I'm drying to go back to Vegas. I want to go to Vegas. I want to see the drag queens.

I want to see a pop superstar, I want to see oiled men, and I want to play the.

Sex in the city. Little game.

Yeah, okay, let's make a plan. All right, let's move on. Tell everybody about what what's Sister Peg do? Okay, So for this week's what would Sister Peg Do, which, as you know, is our weekly segment where we send you guys in the direction of a book, an organization, an article, a podcast even that will flesh out more about what we talked about on today's episode. I was thinking about, you know, the plot of the show and how you know, this kid was being completely terrorized by his brother and

It's a highlight called WWSPD.

And next week, please join us for the episode Perverted and that's season eleven, episode nine and have an amazing you know December time and we can't wait to see you all next week.

Bye, guys, come see us live. We love you.

Bye.

That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email. That's messed uppod at gmail dot com.

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Our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

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