Depravity Standard

Of the law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on. These are our stories, done done.

What's up everyone, It's that's messed up podcast, an SVU pot I messed it up.

But hey, my name is Lisa Trager. I have true truly.

This is episode one hundred and fifty six, and I messed up the name of our podcast.

We're trying to fly to hot too close to the sun. We're trying to mix it up every time, and it's just it's hard by.

Your other host.

This is a mess already, and I'm loving it. We're an SVU recap podcast. We talk about the true crime it's based on, and then we also interview a guest, usually which we have not been doing. But by the Hollywood Strike of the Century is over. The SAG strike has ended. Well, it hasn't really been voted on yet, and I'm seeing all these people go watch out for

Yeah, we're really excited about that. I did want to say I wore our fanny packs. I really like our merch. Sorry guys, but I was wearing the that's messed up fanny pack. And I went to our our weed store in our neighborhood, and the security guard there he's like, oh, so that's your podcast, And I was like, how do you know it was mine? He goes, you got to be representing, and I was like, do I look like a door? Like how did you know? I wasn't just

What is that?

And then I had to tell her it's my own podcast, Keep dancing, bitch. I I'm embarrassed, but I did buy. So my friend's boyfriend works at packs and so I've he gifted me one of these pens, like years Zoo and I've never used it because I like the burn of a joint.

I want to make the worst vehicle possible for me.

Yeah, but I finally bought a little thing for the packs.

I can't wait for your journey. Should I try it right now? I got Blue Dream.

Yeah, hey, this isn't an ad, but I I you know, I watched the documentary. I think the documentary was supposed to be a why not to smoke packs and jewel, but.

It was said be a deterrent. But it's said for you. It's been a full marketing ploy and it's worked.

I looked at the box and I go, you know what, maybe that vapor will save my life.

Wait, but speaking of merch, I wanted to just mention we've been posting it on our in but we have a new t shirt. You guys loved the sweatshirts that we're wearing in our fall tour promo looks, and we decided to make Lisa's sweatshirt in that one, the Crimson one, into a merch item. It is on the Exactly Right store dot com. It's up and it's gonna ship in

It's so fun. It really is exciting. Yeah.

Also, Liza and I famously have been running into each other at the airport while meeting each other at the airport dressed as twins in our purple That's Messed Up sweatshirt, which is still available online, as well as the is This Merch beanie. And speaking of popping into our live shows. I cannot let you guys not know that we are going to be in Sacramento on December thirteenth. We had the best time in Sacramento last year. Please get your tickets sack down. Our six pm New York show is

Grab a friend. Come on over, Philadelphia, Come on over, baby.

Then we're in Philly on the seventeenth, and then we're kicking off the new year in Seattle at the Wet City Comedy Festival on January seventh.

Lisa will be there on the sixth.

And your American flag regalia. We're gonna celebrate January sixth and all of its glory because the election was a fraud, Jacob.

But go to go to that's messed up. Live dot com that actually has the link to all of our tickets as well as a link to the merch shop in case you, like are driving and didn't get to write down the website I said before our mert shop and everything is linked at that's messed up live dot com.

You really got me on the promo. Yeah, you really got it out there. Yeah.

I just can't handle one more person writing and going, when's your Salt Lake City show? And I'm like, three days ago, I'm so sorry you missed it. You know, it's like we do our best. I don't know how we don't get the word out sometimes. So that's here I am yeah, hell yeah in the rooftops.

Yeah.

And I also want to say that saying Sacktown is disgusting.

Well, it's from.

A Tupac song. Oh really yeah, California Love.

Okay, I know that song.

I didn't know that he talks about Sacramento in it, and I didn't know that he called it Sacktown. I obviously think of a ball sack. I think what listener did not think of a ball sack from?

I think he says from Oakland to Sacktown, the Bay Area and back down. So yeah, I don't normally say sacktown. That's like, I'm not like a person that says sack tone. It just came to me from my love of Tupac. I'm like Jada over here. I can't stop talking about Tupac.

I guess wait, since the strike is over, I feel like I would like to talk about Survival of the Thickest. Yes, it is still on Netflix and I'm not on Instagram. I got off for a few weeks, so if you've been at all messaging me, I needed a break. But garcel has gone viral and people are talking about it again, so that makes me really happy. So and people at our shows do come up and say they watched it in a day.

It's a real easy, cute, sweet fun watch. Yeah.

And I don't know if you just said it, but it's on Netflix, so it's available, and it's brand name, yeah, like Garcela is in it, Mochelle Vessage is in it. It's like it's really fun and it's just like sweet. It has like it's not at all like Shit's Creek, but it gives me like that warm like right before I go to bed positivity vibe of Shit's Creek, Like you know, not watching always Murder right before bed, which we also.

Do plenty of times.

But if you want a little palette cleanser, throw on a survival of the Thickest.

So I was, you know, I watch a lot of TV. It's just part of my life and I need it, I want it, and I love adult animation, and so something popped up on my Amazon. I was like, okay, I'll watch it now. It's called The Good Family, but it's from twenty thirteen or twenty twelve, which was really shocking to me because it's making fun of like a progressive,

Bed for bed, yeah, yeah, yeah, no.

It has a lot of cool people doing voices too, like it has well, it's got Steve Correll's wife, Nancy Walls, who I love. It's got Linda Cardellini. Oh, I love her, love her. And then I'm just like paging through some of the guests and it's like Julia Sweeney from SNL and like Chree Summer and like people that it.

Just came out of nowhere and it's ten years old and I just.

Had never guess who's a voice Deadrich Bader, your favorite? The guys, the guy who's the husband on American Housewife that Lisa is like, he has.

A wild name. No one can ever remember it. Oh, I didn't see her. I have a name. Drop listen.

I missed it. But du Lipa was at the comedy store last night. No, yeah, one of the door guys in a comic. He came up to me and he goes, I think he'd been going up to dudes who didn't know who she was. So he showed me a photo on his phone. He goes, she's here. And I start jumping up and down and I do a dance where I like, I bend down and start punching the ground, and the guys behind me were like, is this the reaction that you wanted, and he goes yes.

Because I think going up knowing what they want, I love it. I think people were just like, no, I don't want you know.

But so I was prepping for her, but by the time I went up, she was gone. But I should have just at least took a sneak peek. I love to see celebrities in person to see how beautiful they are.

But I like that she was there. I really liked du A Lipa's voice. I think she's great, and I think we need to stop trying to make her dance.

She's just not gonna dance.

I saw her live this past tour. She she killed it. She's getting better, you know what I mean. Like it was sexy, but her dancers do most of the work. She doesn't have to dance. But it's like you are you gotta shimeila, you have.

It around a little bit. Yeah, like Rihanna is like in that vein. You know, they just kind.

Of well because Arianna doesn't really have to dance that much, but her voice is way more like she's not. The voice is a higher octaves, there's range, and I just feel like, do a, You're not losing your breath.

Why don't you spin around a little bit? But I don't know.

So the way that ever, the al the other guys reacted to him explaining dua lipa me trying to talk about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce to my friends that are black has been comical to me because I've been watching the videos over and over and over and they had not seen it at all. They didn't even know about Karma as a guy, and the chiefs like they are not involved in any capacity. And it was like the Watch What Happens Live game with Andy Cohen where he asks.

Straight people like do straight people give a damn?

And then they like, he shows like pretty gay topics and then the straight decide. And That's how I felt going going around there. Oh my god, they could not care less listen. I am fully reformed. I am a full I It's it's hard not to think it's we are but I'm all in. I'm all in. I love romance. I'm like so into it, it's really sick. I've watched I watched the video of the dancers reacting at least twenty five times. I've watched the video of him covering his face dozens, if not a hundred times.

Yeah, I cannot.

Stop watching the same thing. I feel like I'm twelve years old discovering the Backstreet Boys again. Like it's this mania I haven't felt in a really long time. And I just keep listening to the songs. JK, I feel this mania all the time. I'm playing my Mario Nintendo switch and non stop. I get obsessed. I get obsessed.

Yeah, you know, you focus in, you drill down, as they say.

So, Yeah, I'm in the whirlwind.

I've been listening to all the albums.

I am just I'm just different now and I yeah, I'm gonna see her in Europe.

I have decide also, or the UK, you know, brexit whatever.

This episode comes out a few days after Thanksgiving. We're obviously on the time machine. It's not Thanksgiving yet, but I just want to say I'm very thankful for all of our listeners.

You guys are so cool when you come to our live shows.

You guys bring us like such thoughtful stuff, these like friendship bracelets.

It's like we feel like Taylor Swift.

You're bringing us like good oh my god, chocolate, like candy like I had, like cute gifts for my kids, and uh.

I just don't even have to like your presence and that is so magical that like we are not exaggerating. Every venue we leave, we hear how great our audience is. Like every club, every server is like your people can come back anytime they want. Like truly, you guys are We're like so proud that you guys are our listeners

And it's like I feel proud. It's just like.

Cool to see fun ass powerful people coming to our shows.

Yes, yeah, you guys are the best. So we're thankful for.

And I love stuffing. Yeah, thankful for stuffing. I love stuffing.

That's my favorite. I would say that's my favorite Thanksgiving item. Food item me too.

Why don't we eat it all year round?

I just bought a box of it, and I was like, I don't even care when I make this, I'm gonna keep it. I like got a box at Trader Joe's and I was like, I want stuffing. Another time I didn't. Probably do we just it's you know, and I feel Thanksgiving.

So bad for my mother.

She makes like her own and then makes me a stovetop one and then she makes cranberry sauce and then I eat it mine out of the can.

Same.

I always go, I don't want the fulberries, I want the can And like, if there's ever like a fancy stuffing, I'm like, is there like a stovetop?

Like that is truly my favorite.

I actually took a gamble buying the Trader Joe's kind because I'm like, I sat there and I go, should I just go to a regular grocery store and get stove talk?

So you trust Trader Joe's might as well try it, like they do have good at high quality of products.

Yeah, I bet it's good. I bet it's good. And I I got.

The guy's plan. I learned like he did small parking lots on purpose.

Did you know that? No?

Yeah, it's cheaper, like you have to pay for all that parking lot land. That's why his store and the parking lot is tiny. His whole thing is like fuck paying a lot for rent because that makes things more expensive. So he's able. I had a key. I don't even know who the guy is, but they're able to keep the prices lower because it's less real estate.

And that's why the parking lots are so topsy turvy. Oh, very smart.

Yeah, because I went to Whole Foods today to return something Amazon, and the parking situation is annoying. Whole Foods is so out of control how expensive it is.

But anyway, but nothing to me is like more beautiful than the Whole Food's cut up fruit area, the pre cut fruit. It's giant, it's every fruit. It's so colorful, it's so bright, it's so fresh. I walk in and it's like seeing God, Like, I just love the cut up fruit.

There. I do that. I actually don't grow a free shop at all.

I laid in my bed and I postmated Vaughns to my house.

That's what I did.

Because I needed water bottles because I know it's bad for the environment, but it's the only way I hydrate. It's like a mental block, So I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm not cleaning a straw. I'll get a disease. I'm That's not where I thrive. Are we going to the mall today? Should we get this going? Yeah, let's go. We're going to the mall. Guys, we gotta go to the mall. We're go get in. We're going shopping. All right, stay tuned. Awesome episode coming up. Okay, we are doing de Pray

Size more back to have twitches on the screen.

I there's no way they could have planned this and been like, in three seasons, we're gonna get Tom size more back. Like I feel like they you know, it probably worked out with him being available and shit, and that's and they decided to like do a second part to it.

Also, you love this woman.

That plays the mother, like they probably were like, let's get this good, these good actors back. This Israeli actress that plays the other boys mom. You know, there's like a good little cast. Maybe they're like, let's get the band back together and do a follow up.

Yeah, one hundred percent. It was good. I was into it.

And I think they really weaved in clues from the last episode into this seamlessly, Like it wasn't over exposition in a way where you're like, okay, iced tea, you're just telling us what happened.

Like they really did it smooth.

I thought, if you don't want to listen to the last week's episode, you'll get all the info throughout.

And I'm just gonna say something controversial up front. This is like my least favorite Olivia hair, just like the butt, like that stick straight to ripe below the chin. It's not my favorite. Like I like her to have a little bit of body, you know, you like volume, Yeah, like volume.

It's just hard like the curly haired jew and me is like jealous, you know, like I will always I will always love that hair. I will always be jealous. I will always be like, oh, what a lucky woman, you know, so funny.

As a child, I was so jealous of the girls with like thin, like fucking emaciated hair that like was like tiny, like they had barely any hair on their head. I'd be like, look at what a silky ponytail they have. And I have my like curls, my baby curls that will never get straight. And now I'm like happy that I'm the other way because my children have taken my hair.

No, but you're totally right, Like thinking about the thin ponytails I was envious of is so laughable now, like, of course I like a thick pony but I will always it's just the ease.

Like my curls. It's just always so much.

But like your signature messy bun like that can't exist when you have like skinny.

Little threads of blonde. I know.

But my favorite messy bun is my friend Little Frecks, and her hair is like it's it flops around in this way that I really enjoy. But it's just the consistency I'm jealous of as well. Like with curl, I don't know how the curl will look and these do not DM me products. I have allergies, so I know good products exist. I am struggling, okay, yes, so, and and I thought I was out of the woods because I keep thinking I'm gonna grow out of it, and then this trip, this road trip. By the end, my

Do me in. It's like, you know, one courtyard and your fuck.

You can't like travel with a towel, Like you can't put a damp towel back in your suitcase, like.

I just have to air dry or have a robe of some kind. I don't know this is I will start the episode. Okay, Okay, I cannot talk about my my sores again. Sores make it sound worse. Okay, So were you scared of a bola as a kid?

Yeah? Terrible, too terrified.

I thought you would look like an enchilada, Like that's how I pictured it in my head. I'm like, your blood comes out and you're an enchilada.

Oh my god, cares really taken by this? That is fun, like my favorite thing to eat. I don't know if I can even have one now, you know, I love it. Enchilada. We will. Well, that's like what I thought of as a kid. I also don't know why I thought I thought of a bowla currently, Yah knows what's going on?

Okay, So Hulu has this as an episode eight. It's episode nine A two thousand and five, Oh the year I graduated high school.

Okay, So we open with some.

Grainy footage and a close up of a man and we hear a voice say, we just need to hear you say it. And they're trying to get a confession. And this is Tom Sizemore, which is a name I mentioned last week. I've heard many times. He has two hundred and fifty nine credits. Not one I've seen this.

Yeah, we talked to my reference.

Yeah, yeah again to me, he's Heidi Flice's ex boyfriend and he has passed as well.

So and you told me.

Last week that he had issues with substance abuse and he played it perfectly in this episode.

I would say he looks he is good.

He is good as this character unless he's terrifying.

Oh do you think I don't know. I have no idea. I'm hoping not.

I'm hoping he was like the way he just does like wild eyes lit like dark, different places, Like I was like really buying into this character.

Blade, yeah Slade. So he's admitting to doing it but doesn't know the kid's name. And we hear Benson's voices like Hector Rodriguez. Still it's just a close up of his face, and then it's like he had a backpack. He started talking to me and bothering me, and he followed me back to my building and we pull back. He's wearing a wife beater. Classic. He says, nothing happened. Benson pushes something happened. He again is like, nothing happened, but he said he was going to tell his mother

So now we're at Supreme Court too five.

He's in an orange hump suit and Benson's with Hector's mom in the court audience.

So this is like the first time in all time where the trial is actually in Like this is how long it would take a trial to go, Like it would be three years later, But normally on the show, it's like the following week he's on the stand, you know, Like in reality, it's like years before these people get on the stamp but go on.

Yeah, so much scheduling.

I also wonder I've never really thought about what COVID did to court and.

How Oh I'm on dry day right now, I'm on jury duty right now? Wait what, I'm on jury duty this week. I reschedule because of all of our storing, and I was like, well, i'll be home that week.

I'll just do it that week.

And but I just have to check in every night online and it's so far it's told me you don't have to come in. So I'll check in tonight and it'll tell me if I have to go in tomorrow. If it tells me I have to go in tomorrow, I'm going to say I have COVID or something because I'm going on a field trip with my daughter and I don't want to miss it.

But isn't that a good enough excuse. I'm chaperoning a field trip, I think.

So it's like you have to like what you can postpone, and I already did postpone, but like you can't, like in the middle of it, just say, oh, a work thing came up, like you're supposed to, like you have to be there.

So it is our civic duty.

And I do agree with jury duty, but it's my daughter's first field trip, and I really feel like I have to go. I also don't think I'll ever get picked for jury duty. If they're like, what do you do, I'm like, I have a true crime podcast, Like I just don't think I'm ever I'm like, I watch Law and Order for a living, Like, I don't really think that they're ever going to pick us.

No.

Well, because famously, when I did get to go to jury duty, I sat in the box, I got interviewed, I was sent home before lunch, but I was like crushing, like I was killing at this thing because he said, does anyone have experience? And I've raised my This was this was before our podcast. I was still living in Chicago, but I raised my hand and he goes, oh. The judge was like, where do you have your crime knowledge? I go I watch a lot of criminal television. And

Who was like yeah?

And then my friend worked downtown, so we met up for lunch and I got to use my you know cash that they give.

Oh yeah, I don't know. I loved being a part of it.

But I don't really know what's happening because it's like no one's asked me a damn question. I just signed on to a computer every night, and then it goes, you don't okay, you don't have to come in tomorrow.

Well, the items of people sitting upstairs never never picked. I was lucky enough to be in the first group got to sit in the jurors box answer questions, but it was car.

Insurance, so I didn't want to be in there, Like, yeah, I did jury duty one time.

Next sitting waiting to get called, sitting next to one of the Queer Eye guys, but the original Queer Eye guys, the one who did interior design, the.

Original Oh, one of the og Fab five was just bartending and watch What Happens Live and Andy Cohen said, you built this house.

Oh and that was a house O Brambo.

Yeah, and it's true, and I loved that Andy gave it to you built this house. Not enough to be on the couch, but we'll let you behind the.

Bar, all right.

So we're in court. We're back, Baby Barba is there? The defense attorney has a comb over. Mister Hoda, the lawyer says, pleads guilty, but he has to say it out loud, and he's really struggling to do so he looks at Benson and the crying mother and goes, no, I'm not doing time for this, and Barba's like, ah, well, we had a deal that we cut to a uniform cop who is Alexander Karpovsky aka Ray from Girls aka

That he was a pedophile anywhere?

So who So remember like at the end of that episod, So I was like, what is the motive is he attracted to these kids? Because they don't really they threaten the child molester thing with him about jail, but like they never really explicitly say that any of these kids were molested. And so that is the first time that they're saying that the reason he took why it is

And I'm on his side here the scars to prove it.

He works hard and the rich keep getting richer and they should the son should have just like given him some.

Money, you know what I mean. Yeah, So we're all in a meeting.

It's Benson, Barbara and the moms, and they say we're going to push the convict him of why it's kidnapping because the evidence is more fresh and he can identify him. And the mom's like, hold on, you know, he'd have to testify and Benson goes, yeah, and we'll support him, and the other mom is like, hold up, you're not going to charge him for killing my son. And Barbara is like the evidence is sixteen years old now and it's circumstantial. But Wyatt's mom keeps looking down and we

And Barbo.

Barba's like, we'll bring charges on the crimes against sector and then she's like but we can use what you know, like he did to Whyat in the trial, and they're like, that'll be up to the judge. So the dramatic music plays and we start with the credits, and when we're back, Caresi is catching up to Barba in the middle of a marble courtroom hallway and he's like, so you know, I'm at law school at night, right, And Barba's like, yeah,

He's still like in full like early sunny Kreesi mode too, where like the accent is like so thick, like he drops.

A little bit of that in the moment recent like when.

He becomes an Ada, you know, like yeah that He's.

Still like I got this. Oh my god, your dad's a legend. You know, like he's so like he's just so earnest. Yeah and so, and I love this defense attorney. Her name is Robyn Weigert. Oh yeah, yeah, she yaps, she does. I like the moment I saw on screen, I was obsessed.

And she's also in the episode recall season eight, episode three, and that's the one with the dad from the Nanny.

That's that episode. And I was looking her.

I'm like, why am I so drawn to her? I'm not sure? And so I looked at the IMDb. I'm like, Jessica Jones, I did watch that her Big Things, you know, you watch Sons of Anarchy in Deadwood.

And then it hit me.

She's the therapist for Nicole Kidman in Big Little Eyes. Yes, and that's why I felt so protected the moment I saw her. Yes, I didn't know why she had a hold on me. I couldn't recognize her, and once I saw Big Little Lies, I'm like, of course you helped Nicole Kidman get away. No.

She plays a really badass character in Deadwood too, Like Deadwood's this very male show, like all the women are basically like sex workers, but she's Calamity Jane, like she's like a man like a woman in a man's world, you know, and like she's really good in Deadwood. I mean I've only watched the first season, but she's very good.

And she has a cute little brunette bob and I'm obsessed and.

She's like, whoa, who's the eye? Candy wants to fuck Dominic and Greasey's like, hello, Night's School at fordham Low.

This episode is really like I didn't think this was funny when I was watching it, but now I'm laughing.

Yeah, he's embarrassing.

And he then already starts talking too much for a shadow, but he's like, I know all your dad's cases. He did the Black Panther defense. She cuts him off to talk to Barba. She wants to plead this out, and he doesn't get why she even took this pro bono case for this scumbag.

And he keeps talking.

About his daddy and Barba's like, yeah, okay, she's still trying to impress him, even though he's been dead for

I don't know.

So we're in court and she heroits on the bench and they go back and forth trying to get their way, classic prosecution versus defense vibes, trying to get the other cases into the trial, but the judge says he's not muddying the waters of the case, so Wyatt's case will not be included. Now she's trying to get the confession video out and calls it course. Barbara's like, well, it's on video, so we should just let the jury decide for themselves, and the judge does agree. And the judge

This is crazy. I wonder if he's like an original law and order, like lawyer from like the OG.

Yeah, like how don't Dad is really is related?

You know? Yeah, we got to figure this out.

But so the confession does stay in, So now this is wild. We finally see a decoration. We finally see a decoration on a desk. It's weird. It's for things giving that decoration holiday, but on the desk. The next scene starts with a paper and cardboard like like tabletop turkey. It's a turkey decoration at the SVU precinct. I'm on cloud nine the fact, you know, I'm always dreaming of a spider web, a little wreath somewhere, an Easter egg,

Not what I heard.

And he's just raving about the defense attorney and he's just so taken with I wonder if they did fuck, like I mean, and we have a crush on Rollins right now, but I hope they like ended up fucking at least once. And Finn is like, why are you so happy for this like defense attorney, and he's like, okay, well, Barbara wants to try to find any evidence that hold a new Hector.

I know, I said it.

So basically the assignment is they need to find evidence that Hode a new Hector when he was alive. Finn says, we gave him everything we had. But Benson brings up the auxiliary cop and maybe we should go talk to him, maybe he has anything else, and Finn is like, didn't we think he did it? And Benson goes, well, yeah, but we didn't find that out, and Finn goes.

Well, he's still nuts.

He leaves messages for Rollins at three am, and Benson's like, listen, he knew Hector, he knew the neighborhood and he noticed the arson pattern, Go fucking talk to him. So Finn is like, he'll only talk to Rollins and Benson's like, okay, then have her call him and say that you know, you guys are going to.

Go talk to him, So get to work.

So we're back in front of the mural of Hector and the auxiliary cop. Ray Pashanski from Girls is there. He's in a police outfit and he's like, wow, I loved hearing from Rollins, and Chrisy and Finn are like Okay, well it's us and Rollins. Just remember, you know they're they're buttering him up there, like Rollin's remembered how much you cared about the case, and you know, we just wanted to get more info from you since you helped us find the pattern and you figured all this stuff out,

Like lie in court or anything. So we cut to spring time.

Oh I thought it was spring, but obviously I saw the Turkey thing, so it is fall, but I feel like New York would be colder.

But whatever. So they're in like cool.

Mid temperature outfits walking near court, and holy shit, Beady Wong appears.

He's wildly on the steps.

He hated Oklahoma, so he left the Bureau and now he's consulting Beadi Wong runs off to work and Barbara goes, well, you'll see him later. Hassler hired him as her expert forensic psychiatrists. He's a hired gun now and Benson feels betrayed. Creasy's sitting at the precinct watching the confession over and over and Barba asks if there's anything new, and he goes, nah, but I have a care package for Rollin, so I'm going to deliver it to her since she's on bed rest.

It's happening again today. Yeah, the first time. It's like, it's it's too sad.

I don't know, because you know that the parents are going to blame themselves forever.

And it's a bummer.

So that walk meant that he did walk past Hodah's building when he managed those So, but now it's time for the defense and she is incredible. She's sympathetic to the mom. She goes, I'm so sorry this happened to you. I'm so sorry you have to relive this. But did you ever see your son with mister Hodah? And she has to respond, no, have you ever seen Hodah before this arrest?

She said no?

Over the years, did the cops say they wanted to solve the crime and she goes, yes, Benson was very dedicated and wanted justice and it was important to her to help me, and Lisa goes, yeah, and the only way to help you is to find somebody to blame for your son's murder. And Barbara and Benson are you talking in an empty court room? And Benson's like, are you fucking kidding me? She's making me seem too conscientious. He's like, yep, And she implied, you're so desperate to

Barbara's like, she is just doing her job and she's really good at it. And she's like, you left me out to dry. And he's like, Okay, chill the fuck out. You're up after lunch, let's prep. She's pissed. She goes, no thanks.

I've testified a few hundred times, so I think I'll be fine. She is living, and he says, I need you to sit your ass down and work with me. She finally agrees and they start to work. So now we're in court and we're watching the confession. He admits to snapping the neck and also putting the boy under

It took me almost a decade.

And she goes and finally you had hodap and she goes, yes, and he confessed on the video, and she goes, I'm interested in what didn't make it to the video. You interrogated him for over six hours before turning on the camera, So what happened there? And she goes nothing, that's against police procedure. She questions her about lying and stuff in those six hours, and she's like, excuse me. The Supreme Court decided that cops are allowed to make misrepresentations and

I love Horowitz. He's great, But like, this is the problem with the whole episode. Why would they toss out Wyatt? Like he literally had a boy in a basement and that's like what led them to like the rest of this, So like why would this be disconnected? But I mean, I'm sure our lawyer girls will tell us, but like, it just doesn't make sense to me that he's like can't talk about the other kiddie kidnapped because the kid won't testify. But it's like we found him because of his information.

Yeah, you know, yeah, he led us to the correct basement.

Is not evidence enough? Right? Can't just be like he could be in this basement, I don't know.

Sometimes there's kids down there, Like you know, that's not like, wow, it worked out. So it's very strange to me, but you know whatever. They have to make a television show work, so I understand.

Yeah, that's a really good point.

So Lisa's like, so, what's a chomo and Benson has to say child molester. And the question then is proposed, are they assaulted in prison?

Yes?

Yes, so you lied about evidence, and you threaten to label him a chomo, and you promised that you would advertise the book that belief to ensure that he would be assaulted in prison. And then and only then did he confess. Benson says he confessed because he was guilty. Quick cut to Hoda on the stand. He's fully crying, great performance, spitting red, pointing finger, very passionate. I confess because she said she was gonna get me killed. Benson

That little boy so the Little Boys is like.

I don't know how It gave him the clue because maybe if it was just that one, it'd be like the little boy, I don't get this.

I thought maybe you would. No, I don't think I do.

But because I was telling someone about our connections thing, and I was saying, how like sometimes the first connection you get. This is the New York Times game. If you guys play word ole Connections is amazing. It's sixteen words and you group them in four groups of four and you have to figure out the groupings and they try to trick you, but you always get the grammar ones or like the proposition or like past ten, like

I'm like, maybe she'll put this together. No, I don't think I'm there because of it.

Well, so yesterday's one of the answers was majong tiles. That was definitely my fourth and final.

I was like, I was like, I would have never gotten these would my whole life. That's my last.

So if any of you figure out how careesy maybe fordam Law is really working on him.

But if any of you.

Understand why him saying that little boy equate it to little boys question mark, I guess it implies.

There's more than one little boy. I just I didn't really catch that.

Oh yeah, because then later Olivia says, we think he might be responsible for the death of two other kids because like he hangs out at playgrounds, and like, yeah, I think that's probably it.

Like the plural yeah, but he said that little boy. Oh I don't know that because I kept rewinding.

But I guess if it was just one boy, you would maybe just say the little boy.

Is that it? I know that's too, that's not bad, but it's not that feels like a walk. I don't know. I don't know.

This is weird because Barbara at the end, like we'll get to it, was like so impressed that crazy put this together. But anyway, so Barbara has this little clue now and then this is my favorite. It's when he starts talking while he's still sitting so you know, he's feeling confident. So he's sitting there going did you order

He's like, I don't remember we needed it. I ordered it.

He goes, oh, you don't remember that, but then you remember this, and he plays the confession and we see Hodah on the confession say he had a backpack. He started talking to me, he was bugging me. So Barba questions him, so you remembered the backpack. Did you put it in the ground when you buried him? He goes no, he says nothing to remember you were attracted to him. No, he denies being attracted to children. And Barba's like, why were you found at a child's playground years after Hector's

I want more?

I mean I feel like, I mean she just literally does book like all the time, this woman, So maybe they just can't get her.

So then Barba's retort is I seem to be on my feet. He says, your client made quite an impression on the jury, and she goes, so did you thank you?

Walks off. The boys are like huh, what could that mean?

So now we have Huang on the stand and he's playing for the defense, and he says that Hodo was abused physically by an alcoholic father. He never resolved that stuff and that's why he lied and admitted to thing because his da like he had to do anything his dad said to avoid getting beatings. So he buckles to authority to avoid violence. And so duh. The Benson threat to be hurt in jail, especially to someone who needs

Big is this courthouse?

How tall is this I've seen the buildings like this elevator ride is very.

Long, but also it's a public building. I'm sure the elevator fucking sucks.

Also, the last hotel we were in, that elevator was so fucking slow, that Pittsburgh elevator, really and I was like, fair floors, it was so slow. So then they both are mad and they stare straight forward. So now we're watching the news with the girls auxiliary cop on the news and while he's on the stand watching it as well, and Lisa is gonna eat him for dinner. So her glasses are on and she's like, so you found his lunch box? Yes, I was, and she cuts them off.

No.

He says he was friendly with all the kids, and she pushed, is how friendly? And he resents these accusations and she's like, yeah, I'm sure you do. Did you resent it when much interrogated you about the case And he's like, no, I was just helping the case and she's like, you were a suspect. He does not believe that, and he goes, munch is a conspiracy theory nut. His

Not answer a question.

Yeah you can't, that's I mean, the judge can can find you in contempt. But Lisa says, well, I'm not hearing a no, and he doesn't say no, So to me, it's like maybe he cares enough no because he was willing to lie on the stand. So yeah, I don't know why he didn't just say no, so she walks to go sit down.

Damn.

But now it's Barbara closing time. It's a really like kind of it's not even that sexy or cool. He all he says is only one logical conclusion. He did it, and he said he did it, and he's guilty, thank you.

They grappling so long? Why is it taking so long?

And it's like two days for a murder trial is fine, Like that does not seem excessive. It seems fine to be able to discuss for two days if someone's gonna go to jail for fucking murder. She's like, the people's case is weak, and fuck them. Barbara and Creasy are walking like fuck her. She keeps making her case and then Barba's like, well, you know, the jurors aren't supposed to be watching the news or Creesy said that I

Like, well, why didn't she call me? What the fuck?

But now the jury is ready, so right as Finn goes to visit Rollin's in the hospital and I think this is the time when Kelly Gettish is actually pregnant and probably needed some time off.

So Cariese gets a call.

The jury's back and they're going to court on Sunday, November twenty second, Sunday. So they're all meeting up because one of the jurors has a question and the fore woman explains that, and a dude gets up and is like, no, actually, a few of us have questions, and it's like, clearly it's just you that's causing problems, but he wants to be reminded of the rules to decide if a confession

Who said it was that careesy?

No it was Finn. Oh yeah, that is weird.

Finn goes her heart rate slowed up, So did it slow down or go up?

Like? You can't slow up? There's no fucking way.

So for me, I feel like that's an iced tea moment that they just left in because he refused to do another take.

But that's just.

Also, lately the airports have been in douev On crustables, which is one of my favorite airport snacks. I like like iced tea, but I always get the grape and I finally got the strawberry jelly and no, never inferior. Yeah it really is. Thank you for agreeing. Wait, do you like peanut butter and jelly or not?

Really? I love it.

I make it every I also make it every single day for my children, so you know it's lost a little bit of its luster.

But I do love Phoebe and Jay. Wait, they can bring peanut butter to school.

Oscar can, Rosie can? So what I do is I put jelly on one piece of bread. I dig another piece of bread, and I put peanut butter on half and almond butter on the other half.

Slap it together, cut it in half. How do you remember? You never fuck it up?

I like taste because I don't want to send Rosy by accident and like have her like I always check.

All right. So we're at the hospital. Not good. Amanda's on a monitor. We're watching her.

Amanda's there full, you know, belly bum, bad, breathing.

Finn is gonna stay with her.

So now is running at Barbara outside the court and he's like, listen, I've been trying to reach you all day. I left messages and Barbara goes, I have nothing to talk to you about.

The case went to jury. He's like, exactly one of the jurors, jur number four, Thomas Johnson. He lied.

Barbara goes, how do you know that? He's like, I gave the court clerk fifty dollars. LL, you're never going to be brought up the ranks, bro. So this guy, jural number four, was arrested in Maryland for assault last year. The chargers were dropped, but he lost his job. He went to his house in his uniform and talked to his sister and we figured out that he doesn't like cops. And Barbara is like, you committed bribery, impersonated a real

I know.

Okay, So the jury back and they want another meeting, and the judge is like, what else do you want to hear back?

And she goes again, not me, another person here.

I love how she's just like it isn't.

Me, Like she's the funny one of us wants to hear Lieutenant Benson's testimony, and the defendants and the psychiatrists and the judges like all of it. And the four women is like, I don't know what good it will do. And the man stands up and says, I am not the only one who would benefit from this. Ha She says, listen, every juror has the right. The court reporter will begin, and so then she like.

You see the court reporter grab thick ass stacks of papers, and I just would be so fucking annoyed.

I'm glad people are taking their civic duty this seriously, but like I.

Would be best.

Yeah, but I wonder if the court reporter is like my final shot, yay, I get to read, you know.

Or if she's like also annoyed.

So right, then Lisa whispers to Barba, we need to talk. So it's me time, and she goes, listen, we both had our phone. It's time to end this. He goes, it's almost Thanksgiving. They'll let out soon. She goes, yeah, but we don't know how it will go, and then ask careesy if like then she goes, does Carisy need to be here? And it's like you wanted to fuck him two hours ago, and now like you don't, Like

Earlier deals off. Fuck, she's good.

So Barbara's panics wearing for and Hoda's wearing white and looks fucked up.

Well, it just sucks that the note came in.

At that time, like, oh my god. So Hoda's wearing white and looks fucked up. He just looks out of it. And then the judge is talking like, listen, if this is about the upcoming holiday, you have a duty. You cannot just like put together something. She goes, it's not that. People are getting angry and it's going very tense. They say they really tried and there isn't any point. So he says, very well, if that's where you are, I

That can see it.

Benson explains to the mom the options we can retry Hoda and do this all over again, and she's like, would it turn out any different? And then the fore women in another juror walk up to her and they just say, we want to say how sorry we are. We all are so sorry, and at least most of us. And the other woman goes that man was evil. It was clear as day and you are very brave. Benson

So what do they do now?

For tonight, Miss Rodriguez and the jurors are going to light some candles for Hector and do a memorial. She thinks, Barbara, she knows how hard he tried. Carisy's going to go to the hospital to meet up with Finn and Rollins and Barbara wants to go to the memorial with the Jurs, and Benson goes, okay, I'll meet you there. Somber music plays. We're at the mural once again. Lomitsen is there a lot of candles. The mom cries, everyone is sad. Benson

So basically she spoke to her ex.

And Wyatt and they're all gonna help and they're going to cooperate and they're going to go to trial. And the mom's hug. Benson and Barba stare at each other. I actually tear it up here. It really kind of got me. So Rollins is in the hospital, Caresey's still there. The sun is fully up, Benson rolls in. The contractions are happening. It hurts like hell, Like is this triggering when you watch birthing scenes or.

Like what no, I mean honestly, because like it does really hurt. But like she played this really well because I was like, oh, this isn't normal, Like her pain seems different than it's. It's hard to say, like it seems like a different kind of pain, like you're you're definitely like when you're giving birth, you're like, oh my god, this is horrible and you're but you're not.

Like you scream when you push a little bit.

But my doctor was like, you have to stop screaming. And I was like, gotcha, and I would just look. My doctor was like, but she's right, Like she's like you're just gonna hurt your voice and like you don't need to be screaming like that.

There are ways.

She basically was like, you can basically kind of like grunt instead of screaming, and she was right, Like she was right. I did figure out a different way to like get out my pain that wasn't like, ah, you know, like screaming, and I think it made it better for everybody in the room. And but with Rollin's like I was watching it being like, Wow, this is a good acting because this really feels different, like something is wrong, you know.

Incredible acting.

Gettish really turned like this was amazing, But yeah, Kreishi is like pushing her and basically she's it's too late for an epidural. She's pushing. I hate watching this. She's screaming. She says, it's not a contraction. Kara's right, it's my back. It's my back. She starts crying. The monitor's going crazy. They're getting a doctor in there. There's blood, doctor Sloane. They scream, she's hemorrhaging the fetus. Heart rates going down, not not fasting down, you know what I mean, Like

Yeah, get ready to get sad. My favorite catchphrase of this podcast will be right back after a few messages from our sponsors. Okay, so we are back. And I think I mentioned this last week that the true crime of you know, Hector's case is based it feels very obviously on Aton Pats, who was this was a huge

But it's also interesting that, like the New York City is a part of it because I grew up in like a quaint suburb, I would say, and I remember first grade, like I was allowed to go around the block or like walk to it was a straight shot to school.

It was like five olus straight. I mean I took the bus and yeah, but like it is like I could go to the park in elementary school. I feel well.

I mean it's like a couple episodes ago we did that Little Beauty Queen that was like Outsider my rando. You know, like people, anything can happen, like it is like terrible, but.

Yeah, oh you're right, you're right. How do you decide as a parent what's right what's not? Because then I think I've talked about it, but I had like one boy neighbor that his mom wouldn't even let him go around the block. He truly had to go back and forth like in our townhouse thing. And that was a little much too, Like we all got to go around the block.

And he couldn't. Yeah, and we thought it was too strict, But like, how do you do it? How do people decide what to do? I don't know, I don't know.

I follow accounts that are like never let your kid do a sleepover, and I'm like, I don't know, I don't know.

How else because of my less station or what.

Yeah, like you never know who's at other people's houses. You never know, like are you checking to see who has a gun? Like I don't know, you know, Like there's all kinds of crazy shit we have to constantly be worried about as parents. It's such a delightful journey. So he's he was only supposed to walk two blocks, Like this is all happening, Like I think he lives on Prince Street. He just has to walk to West Broadway.

Also, soho is so popular?

Like I mean, who knows what it was like in seventy nine, but it's it's a busy area. So anyway, he never made it to the bus. He was supposed to walk two blocks to get on the school bus. He never made it. He when he vanished, he was wearing a black hat that read future Flight Captain, a little blue corduroy jacket, jeans, and blue sneakers with Florestan stripes.

Here's what pisses me off.

At school, his teacher noticed he was gone, but for some reason didn't tell anyone.

So no one knows.

He's missing until three point thirty, when he doesn't come home from school. We don't get to the bottom of this, but it pisses me off. So at first they you know, the family were suspects at the beginning, as usual, but they ruled them out pretty quickly, and then that night started the search. On May twenty fifth, like everybody there was like one hundred police officers, bloodhounds, everyone's looking for this kid.

For weeks.

They're canvassing missing posters, but there were barely any leads, and so it really was like the kid just vanished

I don't know.

I don't know, because I don't I really don't know.

I really don't wonder. That's a great question.

But this his disappearance like really ignited a lot of national conversation about missing kids and about kidnapping. And like I was born like shortly after this or a little bit after this, and like it really was a huge thing growing up, like kidnapping, like don't talk to strangers, stranger danger, Like don't do this, don't do that, Like anyone could kidnap you at any moment.

Oh yeah, and.

We talk about this before, but the seventies just seemed like a heyday for crime. Yeah, like you could kidnap anyone, and people weren't locking their door, they would let you in. You know, it was yeh, free for all. So I feel the eighties went the other way where it was just like no one walk outside, everyone's gonna be kidnapped.

Totally, totally.

And but and it's interesting to me just because it's like I think, what we realize now looking back, it's like so much more horrific shit happens like in people's homes or like like in their communities. Then even though this happens and it's horrific, like random street snatchings are not as common as like the other kinds of like abuse that I know, But a people's noses.

Yeah, but I get being a parent. If I was, I wouldn't never I would be the neighbor that I hated as a kid and be like, you're not going around the block like I really, I really don't know how people or even like me thinking about things I did in high school.

Like I was on the back of a motorcycle.

I was like, don't let your kids leave anything, Like it's just it is so scared because like you said, it's not. But then the one time you let your kid walk and then they're gone forever.

Like I know exactly. It's like wild, it's horrible. It is horrible.

The animal can it right give birth and swim away, you know what I mean, fertilize the eggs and be an octopus and you're on your own, bitch, Like that seems like you way to do it. Shark life, Yeah, shark life. Baby having to take care of the kid, I just I get it, you know.

I just am still at the phase where I have to be so close to my kids so they don't like just like fall and crack their heads open. They're just so still little and like always getting into trouble, so going doing anything independently is not really for them right now, but it is.

Who knows what I'll do anyway.

If baby Oscar was just walking down the Joy to get some he's.

Like park park.

So in nineteen eighty three, on May twenty fifth, we still haven't found him, and that's the anniversary of his disappearance. Four years that was designated National Missing Children's Day in the US by Reagan, and it started this missing children like movement, Like there was new legislation, new methods for finding kids. There was a woman who grew up in New York City, like you said, kind of off the leash, just like playing in the Central Park until nightfall and

Going on here?

Concrete being laid, you know, and the basement had been a workshop and a storage space for a handyman. And after a four day search, investigator said, quote unquote, nothing conclusive found, but then they caught a break a month later, May twenty fourth of twenty twelve, NYPD commissioner Raymond Kelly.

Whose son is Ray Kelly? Who is that or wait is that his name?

He was one of our purpose that we talked about in an episode. He was like a he's a Fox News, Oh, Fox anchor who allegedly attacked a woman, you know, sexually assaulted a woman. And yeah, his father, the whole thing was his father was the police commissioner. So Raymond Kelly announced that a man was in custody who had implicated himself in Aton's disappearance. And this was fifty one year old Pedro Hernandez of map Shade, New Jersey, who confessed

He was just never found.

And he said he believed the child was still alive when he left him, but I don't I don't know, and he said in one of his interviews, I just couldn't let go. I felt like something just took over me. And he does have mental health problems that I will get into, of course. So Hernandez was charged with second degree murdered despite there being no physical evidence to corroborate

It could have been Lomitin.

So he was retried, which hopefully I know they end this episode saying we will retry, but we don't really get any closure. In twenty seventeen, Hernandez was retried, found guilty of murdering kidnapping, and on April eighteenth, he was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after serving at least twenty five years. So by my calculations, that would be around twenty forty two that he would be eligible for parole.

And I mean he was free and clear for what twenty five.

Years, thirty one years, like thirty three years really, I mean, like he didn't go to This happened in seventy nine and he didn't go to jail until twenty seventeen.

I'm just wondering what ticks off the brother in law. I bet you he confessed.

I mean, I bet you he told him, because like if he was dealing with mental health problems, he might have just you know, been like I did this thing, you know. So I don't know, but the brother in law's what got them too. But yeah, this, like the case like Aton Pats was like the cautionary missing child

So sad, and he's such a cute little boy. But yeah, well yeah that's that.

Join us for a post mortem. Oh god, this is yeah depraved. Okay, moving it along.

All right, let's get into this post mortem. I mean, sadly, it's just like a so sad other story of like you know this time of this time in this country. That was you play until the lights come on, the street lights come on, or whatever is what people say. Like that's how I grew up. You played until the street lights came on. And like letting a little six year old walk to school in New York maybe worked for a lot of people, but sadly.

I can't even imagine it anymore. I mean I was home alone starting in first grade, like I made myself Celeste pizzas, I went and played outside, like I handled my business. I watched Power Rangers on my own, like I was that classic like nineties kid that was just home alone for hours in the day. And I can't imagine that happening today. I can't imagine a first grader, like you know, I live across.

The street from an elementary school.

I cannot imagine one of those kids I saw at the Halloween parade walking home by themselves.

I would never allow it. Yeah, not to blame parent.

I mean it's just but is life really unsafer? Like I don't know, I don't know what that is.

The dangers have changed right now. It's like we give them phones and there's so much danger inside the phones. Both psychological and.

Speaking of danger.

So I was on TikTok and I saw this girl. She a young adult, but she was like, hey, you know, I've seen people argue or talk about like parental controls on phones and like internet. And she goes, as, I'm going to speak from my experience. She goes, I didn't get a phone until I was twelve, but I had unlimited screen time with absolutely no supervision. And she says she talked to her parents later in life and they

Wow, yeah, like I And she's like, I'm this is just a heads up, Like it's not about trust. It's not like you got to teach and you got to like watch what's happening. Because she didn't know it was weird or wrong. Why would she know it's weird to talk to adult men, you know, yeah, like I aspect.

Adults, and I used to get on like I used to get on AOL at these people's house I babysat for when I was like fourteen, just under their family profile and just like talk to random dudes in chat rooms, and I assumed they were like they would tell me they were in college and I was like a freshman in high school, but they easily could have been like dirty old men, and you know, like it's.

Just, uh, that's wild. That's wild.

And her parents trusted her, but it's like it's not even about trust. It's like curiosity and they're lucky that you only wanted the attention and you didn't like actually seek.

To go meet up in public.

You know, yeah, well this is this is switched topics. But yeah, like there's so many like there's there's.

So many dangers.

It's not it's not switching topics because it's basically like the mom truly did nothing, Like none of these people did anything wrong.

Like if you do live two blocks from school, or.

Maybe Rosie is in third or fourth grade and goes, let me just walk to school on my own.

It is a few blocks, Like, yeah, you know, is it that crazy? It's not.

It's like as a parent, there's truly I might let her do it with a friend, like with a buddy. I don't know, it's like very like.

That's the thing. I don't know.

The way it's all connected is it's like you're just your kid wants stuff. You want to trust them. You need to let them grow. When do you let them go?

You don't want to be too strict like I had friends in high school, or too like parents were so strict and or like you finally went to my parents' house, that little town house thing where I told you that boy who lived next to me had to just bicycle back and forth and couldn't.

Go around the block. But I got to go around the block and something happened to me. What would that prove? You know, Like, as a parent, you're gonna blame yourself. There's no right or wrong answer. It's just like, because if you lock everything off the internet, your kid doesn't like you, and then they're looking how to get into stuff.

There is no there's no way to one hundred percent protect your kids on.

It's just communications, and yeah, I think it's just open, honest, constant communication, which is hard.

It's hard because you're tired or whatever, you know, or.

Yeah, yeah, it's like things going on. I mean it's like it's also like I don't know, I could see I could see in like nineteen seventy nine being like, oh, Soho, streets are bustling at eight am when it's time to go to school, like people are going to see him. He's going to be around other people or whatever, like then he went into a bodega. Just the fact that nobody saw a ton Pats at all, Like nobody saw this guy take him or anything, like there were no

But it's sad.

But also yeah, you know, separating the art from the artist. I think Tom Sizemore was a troublesome figure, but he's great in this in this episode, he's.

Here, he's revery.

He's really good unless but unless he was truly on drugs the whole time. Yeah, then it's a method acting.

Yeah.

I don't know which one it is, but it's and then it's the horrific like the cement pouring in.

It's just it's a lot. Yeah.

For some reason, I thought Alex Karpovsky did it like the whole time. I'm like, oh, it's this Luky Lou for sure, it's the Luky Lou.

And it wasn't. And and I've seen this episode tons of times, so it is.

Well, it might be thinking of is there is another episode where a young guy who wants.

To be a cop show a Sharon Stone.

Yeah, is fucking around with stuff to get attention and like get or find things or whatever.

And so that could be what you were thinking of.

No, because he didn't do it either. He did want to help. He's just an idiot. Yeah. You know, like if you want to be a cop and then you become a cop, okay, I can't there's a you know, whatever our feelings are, I can respect that a little more. Then you're obsessed with cops and you're not a cop. That is that is a that is more worrisome. I would rather fuck a cop than fuck someone that wants to be a cop and can't and is obsessed with cops and is buying cop like merch.

That is the scariest thing you can be.

So he is an auxiliary auxiliary police officer, which I'm looking up is also called volunteer police police, assistant police, civil police.

Do these people get paid? No, they're volunteers. Wow, this may they may be armed. It says they may be armed or unarmed.

Well, this reminds me of like it's probably more in smaller towns, but these This reminds me of two celeb stories. So when we had Tucker on Robert John Burke, he's a volunteer firefighter and so that's really sexy. And then you know, famously, after nine to eleven, Steve Buscemi went back and volunteered at his old firehouse.

Right, So I.

Think it's kind of like that when something's going on and you need a volunteer cop. But like, why would the NYPD need that? They have so many resources and people. I understand if you live in the middle of nowhere, that would happen. Listen, we we have some, you know, give us, give us some. What would sister Peg do give us some insight.

This is our what would Sister Peg do, where we direct you towards an organization, a doc, a book, something to give you more info about what we talked about today. And if you're interested in a little bit more about the eighth on Pat's disappearance and you know, and his murder. Unfortunately, we wanted to point you to an episode of CBS's

Places you can watch it.

So forty eight Hours The Lost Boy, and that will be posted in our stories the day this episode comes out and saved forever in our WWSPD highlights on our Instagram page, which is That's Messed Up Pod.

Please follow us.

There and next week we'll be doing surveillance I'm going all the way back to season three, episode seventeen, and it's a fun one. So I can't wait too for you to listen next week. I don't know what I'm saying, but thanks so much. Peace out everybody, bye ee. That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us, or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot.

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Thank you so much to our producer Casey O'Brien and our associate producer Christina.

Chamberlain, and to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly gen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media dun Dune