Decline and Fall w/ Robert Brooks Cohen

Of the law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on. These are our stories, done done.

Hello, welcome to That's Messed Up an SVU podcast.

My name is Lisa Traeger. Hello, hello Lisa. My name is Kara Klank. And you know what we do here on this podcast. We talk SVU, we talk real crimes, we talk to a you know, amazing actor or person involved in SVU episode, and today we've got a good one for you as usual.

But before all that, we just chat what is going on. We banter.

I mean, we're like we're in the ultimate time machine, I would say that. So hopefully we'll get on a rhythm soon, but maybe not because I'm going to go to Finland for weeks, so we'll just always be an intergalactic space floating and some you know, what is time and anything?

Yeah, yeah, it's spring break.

It was spring break last week, so we're taping this a little bit in advance so that we can spring break a little bit.

And did you ever go on like a really wild spring break.

Lisa, I did not that was not part of my existence as a human.

Did you go to Daytona?

No?

No, I went to Cancun when I was a senior. I don't know if I've talked about it all. And then the mom got food poisoning. Was the chaperone, Yeah, our chaperone, mom had to come with us. I mean it was like gross, Like I can't believe I even went, Like I can't believe it because it seemed so fun, but like we just got like drunk and like made out with random people.

It was just like a wild time.

But it is what everyone else is doing, So I think I'd rather go on a more I don't know, off the beaten path spring break one day.

MTV still do spring break shows, Like do they still go and gyrate on a stage next to the ocean? You know what?

They like didn't when I was there.

But I also think that MTV can like license its name out to stuff, So it's possible that there is like an MTV spring Break festival type thing that's just not televised, you know.

What I mean.

Like, but there definitely are not doing the grind and like the fucking kids going nuts at Daytona probably right, or somewhere in Florida.

Like they're not city.

I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't think that that's going down on MTV anymore.

But it's on MTVu. Okay. I can't believe MTVu still exists.

I used to apply for jobs there when I was is it It was originally MTV like university like for college age, like they were trying to make sort of college programming, And then I did not even know it still existed, to be honest.

So I think that it's just targeted at the college set. But damn, yeah I am. Yeah, I don't. It just wasn't a thing for me.

I wonder, this is funny that MTV just totally came up organically in this conversation, because we do talk about it a lot more later in the episode.

Oh wow, I like did not even do that on purpose at all.

I just wanted to know if you had ever gone to like, yeah, Daytona and don't a wet T shirt contests. But I guess I understand that that was probably not gonna happen with your parents.

No, I didn't even go in school. It's just like wasn't a part of my life. But I would. I I'm also more of a rent a house and let's not leave type of yas like when I watch the Real Housewives and they have like a house with a pool on the beach with a staff, Like that to me is the perfect vacation. I do not need to go anywhere. I mean, I guess I'll go to a

No, no, I think when I was seventeen, I could handle it, but like now I absolutely like will not do that stuff.

And what you're describing is perfect.

Like my bachelorette party was forty eight hours in a house in Pump Springs. No one left, Like we did not go anywhere. One person went to do yoga. I'll tell you off camera who it was. I know, but but like you know what I mean, Like I don't want to go anywhere. I want the company to be

Just like waited in line.

Yeah, I just don't know why I thought that that's what I needed to do to have fun. And I would always sneak to the bathroom and just stand there and like like and I didn't even have cell phones. I don't think that point. Now I did, but it wasn't as you know, it's it didn't entertain us as long. But I was just miserable at these places. And now I realized, like, oh I don't have to do that. Yeah, I can just go dance at a chiller place. Oh my god, I'm just getting like a flashback. Do you

I don't know.

I just had like a wild memory flood in my life really popped back in.

Wow, neither. I don't even know if it's a good or bad story.

It's just like truly neutral, Like it's just a neutral memory that.

Came to my mind.

We're doing what you could for testicular cancer, and I appreciate that.

What else is going on? What else happening?

Yeah?

I liked the after party.

I liked getting McDonald's as the sun came up in a car, Like that's what That's what my clubbing meant for me.

But it's interesting watching my niece.

She was like when I saw her last week, like wanting to go to this diner that I used to go to after homecomings and stuff. And it's so interesting that it's the same activities passed down.

From getting food on my own late at night was the height of coolness, Like just so fun diners, so fun. Baker Square was big for us. Oh yeah, it was that never a part. I don't know what that is. You've never heard of Baker Square never in my life?

What is that?

Oh?

They had like a whole big stack of pies, like a table menu of pies. So each day they have thirty different pies. But I would get this like Chinese chicken salad. Like you know, they'll throw some crunchy sesame things and call it an Asian salad.

I would love.

I would love it there and we would all get pies, and there was a Rece's pie and a French still all. You know, I can name pies all day, but it was it was just the place open late that had diner food. And like, I'll say pies again, Yeah that's it.

What is your number one pie? Again? I would always switch it up.

But I love a lemon, a coconut, a banana cream like I like a creamy, fruity pie.

I would say, I think this might be our second combo.

Probably during one of our pre Thanksgiving shows, we've talked about pies, but I just wanted to get a quick refresher.

But if someone has a blueberry pie with a delicious crust, like I love a crust. I love pie crust, I would just can they just sell pie crust crispies in a bat. I would eat that all day like pie creutons.

Yeah, oh my god, hello sharks. My name is a trigger and here's my idea for pie Creuton.

Well, I love ice cream with chunks of pie in it like that, like uh with pie crests. And I don't know how often that happens, but it is like, sorry to go about pies. What diner did you have?

Just like a local one that was called bulls Head in Stanford, Connecticut that we would go to all the time and I loved it. I think it's still there. I've took I've taken Jared there. I was like, hey, come to this diner I went to in my high school days. But yeah, and then there was one called post Road Diner. Like just they were all local, like not chains or anything. They were just like local to our area. Dunk a donus prank calls.

But life doesn't change, like I still you know, we still just do that. Yeah, yeah, we still just go eat somewhere, just at a different hour. I mean I did go drinking last night with the boys and it was fun.

Yeah.

Well, once you go to this bar with a regular, you know, Zach is such a regular and the last night, yeah, but I didn't have to start at tab.

She was like, oh honey, I got you.

Don't worry bringing drinks to the table and it's like all fake and it's obviously because I was with another person and I try to tip well to get a favorable treatment.

But it feels good.

Nonetheless, it feels it's funny that our friend who is the regular there, just like put in the legwork, and now everone else is reaping the benefits, you know, like he's not. It's only he's a famous person where they're like, oh, you're friends with him. It's like he just came into that bar a lot and made his name for himself, and now they're like, oh, you're with him, like you know, it's got Moe's vibe, right.

Oh that's cute. I'm trying to do a Simpsons reference. That's so sweet.

It does.

I mean, it's not as depressing Moe as truly suicidal at every moment. But no, where everyone knows your name, I don't know if they know my name. I don't need them to. I just want I want.

You to know my dress show where everybody knows I like vodka soda, that's your Cheers theme song.

Yeah, but I switch it up, you know, I switch it up. Oh you like why?

And yeah?

It was because you know, I met, I went to Botega Louis.

What is it?

Oh? How was it?

It's beautiful in there? Is it beautiful?

I mean I literally waited for this restaurant to open for four years. I kept saying, I can't wait to go there, and then I moved out of the neighborhood before it ever opened.

And you would love it because it's pasta's simple pastas. But they just have beautiful cake displays, frosted gorgeous like they and macaroons, like very beautiful dessert counters.

That's so interesting in West Hollywood, where like everybody's so body conscious in West Hollywood that they would be like desserts.

Know who I had to Yeah, but that's what they're bringing to the dinners. They're not eating it. This is like gifts, like you would bring a cake to a party. But the person I had dinner with does not eat carbs, does not eat carbs at all. And I said, well, maybe on your birthday and he said absolutely not. The only time I'll eat and eat a carb is if I'm wasted in New York at two am and I walk and I find pizza and that is it. Wow, he does not And he said it's tough to be a gay man.

But I was like, you are speaking to a.

Woman, but okay, yeah, but yeah, he just doesn't eats Victoria Beckham. He just doesn't do it. He's a Kelly Rippa and his spirit. There's no cheat, no cheat moments.

But I get it.

Kelly Ripper said, you know, once you take one and it's the next and she likes to stay ready. And I get that because once you're a little taste, it's it's hard to stop.

Your dad. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel.

That, but I would be sad like Victoria Beckham, instead of cake for a birthday, does a watermelon cake and it's just a piece of watermelon shaped like a cake. And I was telling my dinner date that and he was like, ooh, I love that. And I'm like, you would you fucking sick of you? Want to you just a piece of water?

Get how?

Like?

That's is that? What?

Are you gonna have enjoyed everything when you are done with life? Like saying I never had birthday cake on my birthday. Yeah, some people just enjoy other things.

I guess.

Yeah.

Well, because what I also learned was Sarrak vodka is made out of grapes.

I didn't know that. Oh is that better for you or worse for you?

Or what?

What's the point of that you want vodka?

I just another neutral comment. I don't know.

Yeah, I had a bottle of Sarroc in my apartment in New York for such a long time that I don't know where it came from.

But we used to always be.

Like Sorac didny shit, we would I always talk about this bottle of sarak and then I don't even know if we ever drank it.

Wait, it was definitely a flavor.

If it's April nineteenth, I do have to give a shout out.

It is my.

Sister's birthday and Aries true and true, Happy birthday to another Aries queen with my rosie.

Yeah, it's exciting. She's on the nineteenth.

Her birthday is always around Passover and she was never allowed to have delicious cakes.

Does she ever listen to this podcast?

I doubt it.

I mean, she has so much.

I just can't imagine her having time to listen to hours of me talk when we barely even talk on the phone. Like it would just be shocking. It would be shocking to find out. But you know, I bet there's some secret surprises around the corner.

Yeah, my sister loves us for you too. I just I don't think she's much of a podcast gal. But maybe one day our sisters will love us. What do you think they do other things? When is your sister visiting in the time right now, in the time machine. It's right now, she's sitting here with me as we speak. Yeah, I can't wait to meet her. I have to come back. Yeah, I'm excited to meet claint girl another mink.

Yeah, because I've only met Colin and you know how we kind of fight about.

You know, the duck.

That marks the fourth or fifth time you've brought up the doc on this cat.

So I can't wait to see what your sister orders and judge her fiercely.

Oh no, she'll be good. She won't disappoint you.

I don't think.

Wait, did I tell you.

That I got a gift package like a PR package and a polaroid camera with film. No, a polaroid camera for that HBO show. Yes, the Minx. Thank you to the minks PR department for finding me on Instagram and sending me multiple vibrators and a polaroid camera.

Wow, those are pricey those boxes.

Yeah, and there's an attachment to it and a rose Quartz dildo. I mean, it's kind of like to say it was a good and it came into picnic basket. So maybe we'll do an old style picnic a day or something at the park.

And yeah, just remove all the dildos, put in food and baguettes and stuff.

Yeah, that'll be fun.

We can eat some peanut butter out and about.

All right, do you have other little tidbits before we move on to this great episode?

Well, yeah, our friend Danny Palumbo on Instagram posted that he got to try the Van Luin Kraft Macaroni and Cheese ice cream, So I am pretty envious of that.

I can't imagine what that tastes like, but I would like to try.

That point, the food scientists are really flexing their muscles. I had parmesan ice cream in Italy one time, and it was good, but it was like on the side of like a meal. It was like at a fancier restaurant, you know, so it kind of complimented. I wouldn't like go into an ice cream parlor and be like twoscoops of parmesan please, you know. But it was it was interesting, it was cool. So wow, I'll go try that. That sounds neat. What did he say, day? What did he say? He liked it?

He said it was interesting and he liked it. Got it. That's all I got from him.

That's one of those situations where I write constantly and I get very few responses. If it's like my seek treatment messages, I'm constantly writing to him and he's just like, Okay, it was fine.

The food was good. What do you want from me?

And I'm just like ooh poor, Like I don't know, I just am always writing to him.

I have no shame on Instagram. It's really wild. People will just truly just heart stuff for months and I just keep on bothering them. But I want to be heard. I want to be heard.

I like it.

You're getting your thoughts out. I wasn't heard as a child, and I want to be heard. I don't know, I have no idea. Well, we have an awesome episode coming up and a really really fun guest, so stay tuned.

All right, everyone, We're doing Decline and Fall at season eighteen, episode nine, Excited, and we're opening up on a hardcore fond and cake Okay, people are singing you know, the song, the birthday song, and it says happy birthday, Lawrence, from all of us, and wildly the cake is Ukrainian colors, so they were a se always ahead of its time,

So yeah, my brain's in one thing.

And now there's an old man in a tie and we get that that's probably Lawrence.

Okay.

He gets in between the girls and he says, what a treat, and the cake too, so we get a little grimy grandpa vibe. Everyone at the party is in office attire or business outfits. No one's like dressed sect like, yeah, he's a little bit of a work party, yeah, yeah. And he starts a speech about feeling young and loving his employees and one day the company is going to go to his lovely daughter's Cynthia.

And then we meet a young man with.

No tie, top button unbuttoned and he looks about seventeen and he's talking to the old man. We learned that's his grandson. Let's Lawrence's grandson, but not Cynthia's child. The family lineage in this episode gets confusing. Were you confused or are you kept it going?

He has two kids, Cynthia is one and the other one is a guy, and it's his kid.

Yeah, it's his son's kid.

Well, it was confusing for me, but then later he goes, oh, my nephew, and I was like, oh, so Cynthia is not your mom.

But yeah, so I just wanted to clarify.

Now he asks his granddad like, hey, intro me to one of those hot chicks, and Granddaddy goes, nah, you got to do it on your own, like build up your confidence. And then he's says something bad and says, go easy on the spirits and stay sharper than your target.

Not good.

Not good.

He sets his sights on a bartender cocktail waitress girl, and he's really nervous. There's a pickup line. She's working, but at the end they're getting on. He's chatting as she's wiping down glasses. They're having a good time, and he is, you know, bragging how wild it is to live with his grandfather in this penthouse. He offers a tour and she's scared of getting in trouble. But then she was like, oh, I guess my boss is smoking weed on the roof and it's like, am I your boss?

Rolling up?

Finn is taking the sergeant's exam so he will not be here today.

I wonder what iced Tea really had going on that day, Like I wonder if it was like, oh, it's baby Chanell's birthday and I'm taking her to like euro Disney or something like. I mean, there's definitely a reason he's not in it, Like he had something.

He had something, maybe a body count concert. Yeah, we'll ask him one day.

We'll be like, remember that one episode in season seventeen eighteen whatever.

This is where were you? Where were you? Okay?

Marishka sees the girl walk walking in. So now the cater bartender is walking in. Marishka sees her and immediately says, can I help you? And she's like, I think I was raped, but she doesn't remember anything. Credits, we're back at the hospital. Are victims in a hospital robe?

Now? And she was bartending, you know all.

She remembers that she was bartending the birthday party of an old guy from Avalone stores, and Marishko goes, Lawrence so famous, he's well known. I guess these Avalone stores are very exciting. She's bartending to pay for school and she loved the view and that's all she can remember. And she says she just woke up in the middle of the living room sore pants down. There is semen in the rape kit. She's like, I knew it. I

Like I wouldn't drink enough to be like fully blacked out and have zero memory.

Yeah, she remembers like talking to a young guy, but doesn't remember name or anything.

She just remembers he had a nice smile.

So now it's Amanda, CARIESI and Benson trying to figure this shit out, and you know, they're doing research on the computer. Stock is sinking. He's stayed on past his prime. His business is not doing great. He has a new girlfriend who is at the party named Suzanne Day and that's after his four dev So.

I think her name is Sue Anne. What did I say, Susan?

You said Suzanne, And I just think it's funny to say Sue Anne because of what it's such a weird name, Sue Anne.

Yeah, she also looks like eight different actresses and yeah, of those, it's like, are you this one no or this no? Okay, Well I'm confused now yeah, so will I say Sue Anne or not, We'll see, But she's not a huge part. Okay, guys, it's just trying to show that he's a dumb slut and Benson calls him a geriatric playboy billionaire, which I love. And all they have to go on is that there was a young man that smiled, so that's this is going to be a tough investigation. So they need to get a list

Got to talk. Who's at the party?

He says, I was at the party, and then Cynthia pops right up and he's like, oh, hello, what's up?

Can I help? That's my daddy, and.

Cynthia says, oh, everyone was old, and then Lawrence brings up Eric, his grandson, fine young boy who lives with him, and it's.

So it's just fucked up that he wouldn't ask for a lawyer. He such a like high end businessman who's old.

But also like, why are you putting your grandson in the mix of an investigation. It just doesn't seem like that doesn't make sense to me. But Eric's working at the office, so the cops go talk to him, and Eric recognizes the girl from the photo. He says they hung out. He says that consensual sex. Cynthia says, oh, well, this girl's just confused and just sees a rich target, so go fuck yourselves. And with these rich people, they're acting like poor people don't get raped. It's like so

So do you know you could also like try to throw yourself down the stairs at a party like that and se a person like to just like pretend you've been raped and like I don't know it's or have sex with someone. It seems like a lot to go for just extortion when there's other ways. Yeah, you know, And check out Kara's new book, How to Extort.

It's coming out in twenty twenty three.

I'll show you how to soft roll down those stairs, but get a small injury.

It'll be on my Instagram.

And then Robins gets a ping on her phone and we got some info and we need you down at the station and Cynthia's like, please do not go, and Eric goes, n I'm good, Like everything's okay. I didn't do anything wrong, I swear. So everyone's in interrogation and then Eric suddenly is super confused because they found kueludes in the victim's body, and he goes, isn't that.

An old person drug? Yeah? It is, So how did they get there? Was she high with you?

He says, no, we just had two tequila shots from this flask and I drink from it too.

There's no way they talked.

They went to his room and then they made out and she was into it and she did say yes, and you know, like.

They had consensual sex.

And then he goes, I guess my grandpa's right, and you need a contract before you kiss the girl. So I bet you know Lawrence is really into cancel culture politics as well.

I'm assuming.

This is yeah in cells are not just young, okay.

So Eric's father barges into the room He says, we're leaving where you're coming home with me, not to your grandfather's and drags his son out his mother's in Italy. That's all we really know about her. Now, Benson says, Barbara is getting a search warrant, so let's go.

Oh wait, can I also say something?

A listener sent us a video, but they sent it to us in a way that like, once I watched it, I couldn't watch it again. But it is Benson saying Barbara in an episode.

Well, please send that back to us, guys, I.

Need to see as a permanent video. We need to see that.

I'll try to find the message and right back. But like I was, like I watched it and was like, oh my god, we're not alone.

That's so amazing.

So now we're at fifty fourth Street at the residence of Lawrence Hendrix and the girlfriend's like, oh no, what should I do?

Oh my god? And she's a bimbo love her? Did you find out if?

Yes?

Okay, So she I've seen in tons of stuff.

So her name is Jackie Debateon or Debatan, and she's Elizabeth the stripper in many in three episodes of the Office, which you might remember her from But also, do you remember the character doctor Armand on Kroll Show?

Did you ever watch that? Yeah, like she plays his wife.

I think like she's like I think she has like a bunch of like fake plastic surgery and stuff like. So I've seen her in a ton of stuff. She has a hundred credits, like this bitch works.

The Kroll Show was so good.

Oh my god. I was like truly upset when it got canceled. I loved it so much. But I thought it was so good publicity.

Yeah, I liked those girls with their straws so good.

Yeah, he's really talented. Yeah, I mean I think he's put it all into big mouth now. But I would love another sketch show in the future. But yeah, I think he's just gonna be working.

We'll see him forever, you know, outside of Julia Louis Dreyfus, I'd say he's the second most talented comedic actor coming from a billionaire.

Yeah, I mean, she's from more money than him, I think.

But but yeahs billions. I gotta say, when there's nepotism, Well, I don't know, he might just be millions.

He's like shipping like he's an heir.

Of he's like a defense guy. Like he's I've read a long article about him one time, like he has he's like the guy you go to.

I don't know.

I think he sounds a little scary.

But anyway, and.

Nick, can you tell your dad to get some weapons to Ukraine?

That would be great, do a little conference call.

You know what's funny is my brother always, Colin always says to Kevin, because my brother Kevin was in the military, He's like, Kevin, you majored in defense against the Dark Arts?

Can you tell us what's going on in Ukraine right now?

I just like to talk about the military, like it's defense against the dark arts?

Okay, go on.

You know I messaged with your brother and they said he said that him and his fiance were debating about again getting two ducks and didn't because of my bullying.

Did you tell them that you were recently talking about the ducks again?

Oh? Yeah?

And then I sent him duck emojis. I go, I was talking about this at the table.

At Saint Patrick's Stone Creasy finds Condoms.

We're back, do you guys remember we're at We're at the residences.

I'm fifty fourth with a search warrant.

We're a little we're in the kids room, right, yeah, Eric, the teen, Yeah, the teen so careasy finds condoms and weed but like no, biggie. But then uh oh, they find pills, so they're gonna send the pills to the lab and see what happens. Back at the precinct, Benson is with the victim and she's like, wayludes, I don't even know what that is, and Benson explains it that they induce a euphoric, hypnotic state and memory loss.

I just always think of Samantha going it must have been the ludes or whatever.

Well not only Okay, so the rumor is Jane Fonda has coeludes, so she might have coeloads at her house. Coeluds are what Leonardo DiCaprio's character was on at Wolf of Wall Street when he did some of the best acting I've ever seen, and like Bendy Bendy walking to his car, like the most incredible acting.

And then I think of kludes.

I think of Hugh Hefner because I'm going to get into that.

I'm going to get into you are, yeah, but also, wait, what do you mean about Jane Fonda.

What do you mean she has coayloads she just keeps. I don't know if it was from Chelsea Handler or what.

But there's like a thing like Jane Fonda has a container of coeludes and she might be like the last person.

Maybe they're fun if you just want to like zonk out in your bed or something that a fun company.

I don't think you should drug people. But also how much are people doing then you know, yeah, maybe there's a small amount. Maybe you can micro dose kueludes. Yeah, because we also or if it mixes with alcohol or something, because we have a friend who doesn't love to drink, but they do GHB, which is the date rape drug. But if it's not mixed with alcohol, I guess it's like pretty chill. Or I'm not encouraging people to date rape drug themselves in any capacity. I'm just saying, we

Don't do anything without supervision of someone who knows drugs better than you're.

Doing knocking it out too, you know what I mean? But also some of you aren't scared to let you know us know when you fucking hated everything we.

Did, so you know, we'll hear from one of you or two.

Of you, you know, And I left that sometimes you guys write to the Instagram account like we're not the ones on it.

I think sometimes they think we're not.

Yeah, I think because I think like my favorite Murder and other pods might have somebody else running their ig, but you guys need to know that it is us running our ig.

Yeah when you go, Yeah, Lisa was pretty terrible in this episode.

I'm reading I'm Lisa, I am, I am reading I'm Lisa.

Like all right, So we're back to the kailudes, Benson's talking about it. Then she's Benson shows the victim photos of the young men. So she's going through the photos and she does recognize Eric from the party, So is it possible it was him? She says, yes, I for sure talk to him, and Benson's like, I talked to him too, and he said you had consensual sex and She's like, wait he did?

I don't remember that or anything else, like is this it?

Like?

What is happening?

Now?

Things get even more twisted.

Lab results are back, two separate semen samples are inside of her, So now two men have like raped her, and it's a super sad exchange when Marishka lets her know and she runs off pissed, like you better find these men, and then it's a commercial break style pause. Now finally Eric has a lawyer for such like rich rich people. It's weird that he was everyone's just gibber

But I'm sure Cynthia knows more than she lets on.

So the actor who plays the lawyer is Rafael Subarge and he has one hundred and seventy seven IMDb characters.

He looks super familiar, but he's not.

So yeah, I don't think I've seen stuff he's been in, but I like hated him on the show.

I was like, ugh, oh, yeah, I confused him with someone else that looks like him. But he was in Dexter in season five, is like an IAB type of guy. So, and he's been in like SVU Law and Order la oh yeah, was in another SVU called Wanna Bee in twenty ten. So I don't know, but he's working okay, I thought of look familiar.

He didn't. He's not.

I don't know this. I do not know this man. Sorry to this man, Sorry to this man. Kiki Palmer another SVU. Okay, he's being cocky, like, you're not arresting my client because another suspects, so shut up, and they're like, actually, we found Kloe ludes in your client's room and in her butt blood, so we have every right to fucking arrest your client right now, So cooperate and let's figure this out. Was there anyone else in the room? And Eric go's like a gangbang No, when I liked that,

Oh.

So there's a pick of Eric like talking to her and showing her something as she's bartending, and she goes, oh, I do remember that. It's like this bracelet got from Africa made out elephant hair, and she was like, wait, no, we did have sex. She's like, no, I wanted to have sex. And they're like, are you sorry? And she goes, oh my god, I'm so sorry. How much trouble did

I would never sleep with him.

And she starts crying and like and they're like, do you remember talking to him or anything? And then Sarah goes, you said you found drugs in Eric's room and Benson explains they could have been planted, and she's like, he who would set up their own grandson? I don't I don't understand what's happening. So she's having a rough go. So now they they're like, listen, can you please help us with this investigation? And she's sniffling, but she's like, okay,

Okay, we have a great.

Trench coat peacoat Combo Vibe on Benson and there's twelve giant buttons I counted, and three additional clips on this coat. This is a lot of hardware. And then Cariese's in a camel like pea coat. And with my favorite badge placement, you know when they like put it on the side on the collar and they clip it on the outside of the caller.

You like that or no? Is that your favorite badge placement.

Or but I've never you know what, I've never considered my favorite badge placement, but I love it.

I do love something different. I don't like.

I did not like the stabler trying to pin a badge onto a leather jacket.

So I'm with you on the badge placement.

Oh. Can I also say that Cynthia is a big character in Bosh Oh okay, cool?

Yeah, you really kept that quiet.

Shit wife Bosh's ex wife, And I was like watching it was like, wait, how do I know this woman?

I'm like, Bosh, Yes, I just know. My Bosh beds that listens to.

This podcast are gonna be like, Kara, we can't believe you didn't mention that, And here I am mentioning it.

Go on, Oh no, this is good.

So Cynthia, like you could tell his thinking something, so hopefully she'll turn on her dad we'll see. But the same lawyer runs in, so he's gonna defend dad, you know, Daddy Lawrence and baby Eric, and they slut shame Sarah and they say that she loves drugs and fucking and she's just a party girl. Barbara and Benson are doing a walk and talk in the court hallways and they're like, he's a billionaire. Of course they're going to go for

But uh oh.

Barbara gets news that Cynthia, the daughter, is filing that the dad is mentally incompetent to stand trial. So Barbara barges into the civil court, where he has no standing, but his position is set forth. He's like, this is in bad faith, Like they're just trying to do this to avoid the criminal charges, and everyone's like, you don't even belong in the civil court. And then the grandpa starts agreeing with Barbara, and we're like what and he goes, yeah, my daughter's trying to steal my company.

Fuck her.

Barbara and rich people lawyer now are in chambers trying to sway the judge in their direction, So, like, is he capable to stand trial or not guilty? Not guilty? Insanity? Like what's happening? The judge says, like, we'll let a jury decide and we're going to go for it. So shut up and get out of here. I'm gonna eat

We have a lot of work.

To do, we have a lot of like games to play in this court field. But you're gonna you know, if you're pissed and you feel good about yourself, then I'm excited. Barbara, now in court, plays the video of him admitting the drugging. They cut to Eric's face in the courtroom and he makes a face. Okay, it's like an aha moment. He's like, Okay, what's up. So I'm kind of optimistic maybe Eric's gonna like figure something out.

Yeah.

So Sarah takes the stand and she says, like, Honestly, when I confronted them about the drugging, I was hoping he would deny it and it would make it like not be true. I did not want any of this. I hoped it was not true. He tried to buy her off and excuse it like it was no big deal. And uh, you know, he was rational and coherent, and she adds awful.

So that's what's happening.

And now it's cross examination, and this lawyer is pretty slick and is now going to use all her words against her. So you know, she says like, yeah, he was sick, and they're like, wow, sick, okay, and you're saying he was rational and coherent. So in a coherent state, he thought there was nothing wrong with drugging women. Like he seems like maybe he does have some mental problems. And it's like, no, he's a criminal, Like I don't.

I mean, this is like a whole other I mean.

You can be so entitled that you're mentally unwell, Like your sense of entitlement is so huge that you literally come off as a person with mental issues.

Yeah, so now they see what's happening, and it's a whole squad meeting in the hallway again like fuck, you know, the jury usually needs to hear a victim's account, but there's quayludes.

But Barbara goes, maybe I have a trick.

Like the way he acted on this tape, there's no way this is his first time. Maybe we can find another case, and Rollins goes, we've been looking. So now they're like, well, maybe the billionaire girlfriend. Can we, like, you know, try to turn her And they're like, against a billionaire who pays.

My Yeah, she's not a billionaire, she's a billionaire's girlfriend.

Yes, They're like, well, it's gonna be really hard to turn her. So now you know, the girlfriend's in Barbara's office and Benson is telling her that she's going to be charged with tampering of evidence by planting the quayludes in Eric's room, and there's an FBI report with your fingerprints on it, so we'll see you in court at nine am or you're going to prison. And Barbara she's like, that's outrageous and runs off, and then Barbara goes, wait, there's no FBI report, is there? Do you even know

Yeah, that's the fucking thing.

That's the thing.

When people are like Bill Cosby, It's or any of that stuff, it's like they like to be having sex with someone incapacitated.

It's not like they can't get women to have sex with them.

You know, because this guy has a girlfriend, she'd probably have sex with him regularly.

But instead he like roofies her ooh dark, and she says, like he tries to hide what he's doing, but she knows and sees and that's that. So her on the stand talking about all the old shit that he likes to watch and talk about in old Friends, pans to now Lawrence on the stand talking about like that he doesn't even know what year it is, and they keep panning to Eric's face, so we're like, what is Eric going to do? Like when is Eric going to be mad that his dad is I mean his grandpa did

So I guess maybe he shouldn't. I don't.

This is so complicated, it's so complicated. He goes, yeah, it was my turn, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

So that's that.

But so now it's Barbara's turn, and he's trying to prove that all of this is a fucking phony. Act about like that. He thinks it's the seventies and he only knows about Jaws. Is like, it's not real. So Barbara goes, do you have a desktop computer?

Right?

And he goes, yeah, they're great. And he goes, well, they didn't exist in nineteen seventy five, you know that, right, And he goes, oh, of course we have computers. How else would we go to the moon? And then Barba shows a photo of his offices in nineteen seventy five with not a computer there, and then he goes, but you have computers now, right, you have tons of computers.

You know.

In nineteen seventy five you have twenty two stores. Now you have nine hundred stores. You're telling me you don't know the fucking difference between that? Do you not understand this? Do you like you know? Then Barbara picks up his iPhone and goes, do you know what this is? And he goes, yeah, it's a phone. And it's like, well, this isn't what phones look like in the seventies or fifties, so how the fuck do you know this is a phone?

So you guys get what's happening.

And then barbara final question little button goes, did you know that drugging and raping women was illegal in nineteen seventy five? And the defense tries to object and Barba takes the question away. But I don't see how that question is bad.

I don't know. I don't remember what the objection was.

So now Barba and Benson are telling Eric like the defense is gonna work, and he does seem insane and Benson says, you never told us you had drinks with him after Why are you protecting him? And Eric says because he's a good person, and then his son Larry is like, no, he's not. He's selfish and disgusting, and Eric goes, you're just mad he fired you and my loser mom had a crush on him, and Larry goes.

What the fuck did you say?

And Eric goes, no, what he said was that mom was a party girl who likes to have fun. And Larry goes, you shut your fucking mouth and don't ever talk about your mother that way. And he says, fine, but I'm not testifying against grandpa. He says, if you need help putting my father away, put me on the stand. So I'm excited to see what happens. He knew Larry's going to be a hero. So now Larry's on, I

So they're just like, we're gonna charge your dumbass.

Larry is like, just tell them if you know something, and he spins his head around so fast and says, you want to put your father in jail? I wouldn't do that to you, And Larry's like, well I don't deserve it, lol, And Eric's like, because you're boring and Grandpa is a fun life, or because Cynthia is in charge, and Larry's like, I just didn't want to see him, like see him. I hate him and I didn't want to come in every day at work and see him. And Eric goes, what did he ever do to you?

Was pregnant with Eric. Wow.

Horrible, not that it's like better or worse, but it's like an added level of horror.

I feel like, well, the horror.

Is like for Eric where it's like you're protecting this guy who truly like didn't care if you lived or died, and drugged your mom, Like god, yeah, So he's still not getting it though, it's like very annoying, Like this kid is a fucking idiot. Benson explains. When he sees someone younger than him with someone prettier, he can't stand it, you know. And then Larry goes, your mom was radiant and we had a party and he drugged and raped her and they never got over it, and that's why

Yeah, this is a twisty episode.

I think, like the reveal about Eric's mom's rape was like I remember when I watched this episode, I was like.

Damn yeah, and I you know this obviously is a newer episode based on a newer style crime that I really like. I know the names involved, and I remember the news, but I really don't know anything.

So I'm really intrigued to know the story.

Kara, Well, a few words from our sponsors and I'll be right back to tell it. This is a that's what's up first where you'll see who our guest is.

But I was able to fully verify what.

This episode is based on, as well as get the same resources that were used in putting this episode together, because this is listed in some places as being based on Trump, but apparently that's not really true. We know for a fact that this episode is based on a few different stories, but in part, the Lawrence Hendrick story character excuse me, is based on Sumner Redstone, who is a billion it was past tense, a billionaire businessman and

Well that makes sense, that's just funny. And what kind of name is that?

Some nerve?

That's not real? Well, what you know, what's weird?

He I thought, some in Redstone this is probably a Southern man from like you know, Mayflower descendants. No, this is a Jewish man whose family changed their name from red Rothstein to Redstone, which apparently is what it means or something. And then Sumner is such a like a rich man. I mean some tho sounds like fulk sumptera or something like. It sounds to me like just I don't know what the first name comes from but a Jewish man from like Massachusetts, and his family is still

So.

I don't know.

Maybe it's his personal fortune versus business fortune, but anyway. He died in August of twenty twenty at the age of ninety seven, after saying for years that he would live forever. Like his whole thing was, I'm gonna live forever. I'm never gonna die. And in January of twenty fourteen, he told the Hollywood Reporter, when asked about who would succeed him, he screamed, and he was like, I will not discuss succession.

You know why, I'm not going to die.

Well, sorry to say his prediction was not true. So he became the executive chairman of both CVS and Viacom.

I just said CVS.

So he became the executive chairman of CBS and Viacom.

So you know that's a deep joke.

Do you remember that?

No? Wait, who's the hot one? The hot evil one with no soul?

I had Dan.

Yeah, Dan was talking and who's my girl?

What's her name? Anna Clumpski? I forgot what her name is on the show. But so her.

Sister and Dan are at the bar and she says, oh, I work at CBS. But he heard CBS and he wanted to work as a correspondent, and so he fucked her to like get a job, and then she was.

Like, yeah, I mean you can work nights. We're looking for someone.

So we thought he was going to do the nightly news and then he fucked somewhere that worked at CBS.

Oh so good.

So an interesting little backstory on Sumner Redstone is that he did survive a fire at the Boston Copley Plaza hotel that was started by a disgruntled teenage bus boy wild and he survived by hanging from a third story ledge out the window. And he somehow survived this fire, but he had he had burns over forty five percent of his body and they were like, you'll never live a normal life, and he was like, yes, I will,

He's got this amazing memory.

He remembers everything he said from two weeks ago word for word, and others are like, that is complete bullshit. He can't walk, he can't talk, he eats through tubes. And then like apparently for some years before his death he had such a hard time talking that he had like an iPad that was loaded with snippets of his voice from past interviews that he would just use like a soundboard, and he had buttons that said like yes, no, and fuck you.

So what would be on.

Your board that would be your top three? Did Rosie have a quesadilla that would be would be on there?

Yeah, please stop throwing another I mean there'd probably just be a bunch of me being an exasperated parent. And then also, Liza, have you heard this Okay, so there's a lot of drama in the Redstone family about now. I'm reading that it's a six point four billion dollar fortune that he would eventually leave, so who knows. I think maybe it's because I'm reading articles that are from like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, and then later when he did.

He didn't die till twenty twenty.

Much like the character in the episode, Sumner Redstone had two children with his first wife, named Sherry and Brent. They're both his children by his wife, Phyllis, who he was married to for like fifty seven years and or fifty four years or something, and then she he just cheated on her and became.

Like a playboy.

Suddenly he's like dating all these women after he's in this fifty plus year relationship with his wife. So he had a major step falling out with his son Brent, just like in the episode. They did not speak as of twenty fifteen, and they hadn't spoken for years, and Brent had sued his father and National Amusements in two thousand and six essentially for trying to cut him out of the family business. That was eventually all settled and Brent went to live on a large ran in Colorado.

So then, according to Vanity Fair.

Redstone always had a wandering eye, and someone who knew him well was quoted in this Vanity Fair article saying he does think he's God's gift to women, which is hilarious if you see him, especially after I've heard about how he eats as well. So allegedly he was with a mistress the night of this fire, even in nineteen eighty seven. I don't know what happened to her. I don't know if she survived the fire. I don't know if he said, hey, hang out this window with me.

So nice, nice work fifty years with this man and you got one hundred mil.

Then he dated Christine Peters, a Hollywood producer who did make the movie How to Lose a Guy in Ten Days and.

My Favorite movies. I've seen it so many times.

I love it.

I wanted to bring it up because I thought it might be a fave of yours. And they him and Christine were once engaged, but the engagement was called off after she refused to fly with him to Dubai on a minute's notice when she was in the middle of producing a movie. So I think he wanted a woman who was more like at his becking call, and Christine was not that gal, so engagement over. Then he had a relationship with this woman named Manuela Herser. She's a

Yeah.

I just always remember her being like, you have curly hair straight in it?

Yes?

No, I'm like hair straight in it?

Yeah, And she would call little women spinners, like she would call like any woman that was tiny and petititch, she would call them a spinner, which I thought was like gross, And she'd.

Always be like gross and I know, like those who don't do teach, Like I get that, but it's like, yeah, you're.

Single as fuck, Yeah yeah, yeah completely, But I mean I didn't realize that she was in with people of such like he is so so rich, this man and so powerful and entertainment. So she actually did introduce him to her friend and they started dating.

Like is it cool to want my Like is it like we both know one person? And in her mind she was like I am gonna end up with someone rich and only went out with like finance people tech, like that's what she was looking for. So is that like cool you know what you want? You don't want to work in money? Or are you like a gross person? I can't really decide.

I don't know. It feels a little gross, but I don't know, uh.

Because like you there guy, it's like he's disgusting. He doesn't know how to eat, he's mean. He treats people like shit. You need to be like a servant to him, Like what else is like, these people just want money, right, yeah.

But they claim, oh my god, we had such a he has such a Okay, So so she starts going out with Sidney. Holland starts going out with Redstone. I think she's in her early forties at this time. And he took her to catch in Santa Monica, big seafood restaurant, and that Stanger thought that Holland and Redstone would hit it off because Holland says, Sumner has an amazing sense of humor, a quick wit, and is incredibly intelligent. And she, meaning Patty, knows that that's the kind of things that

Photos of him and it's like, I don't know if he looks better or worse than what I had in my head, Like I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, it's like you can't be like he has great hair, a great skin.

I mean, it's just so wild.

I mean, I don't want to talk badly about someone's appearance, I guess. But these women are clearly in it for being taken care of and money. So Sumner's daughter, Sherry, who we've talked about, does not love that her father is into all these younger women and having younger women around. And she had a very contentious relationship with both Manuela and Sydney, and she had a PI investigate both of them.

And then as of.

Like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, he's with Sydney, but Manuela is also I think maybe even living at his house and is his companion. He wants the two of them to plan his funeral. He's got all his funeral arrangements. He wants them executed by these two companions. He doesn't want Brent or Sherry involved at all, and that these women are both going to get seventy five million and then everything went tits up. Both of them got taken out of the will and Weela was taken away as

This is how soap opera.

This is.

Sometimes he's just communicating with his daughter via fax, and then other times he's like kicking his girlfriends out and he's like, Scherry, you're back in my life. So he ended up splitting with Sydney in twenty fifteen, threw Manuela out of his house, and in twenty sixteen, at age ninety two, he finally resigned from his company jobs following

Got decent paydays.

I don't know if they got their seventy five million that they were promised, but they both got money from the family. And now, yeah, now his daughter kind of runs things for him and for the National Amusements and all that. But this episode's also based, of course, on Bill Cosby and Hugh Hefner, which are I'm not going to get so so deep into the Cosby case because it's a huge case and I believe there are other

Yeah, it was really fucked up, like those were his girlfriends. Yet he kept being like, you're too ugly to be in the magazine.

Yeah.

Yeah, they were never in the magazine.

Not until the show, and then when the show was such a hit, I bought it.

It was like the three of them.

On the cover together, I remember, and then they each had their own like, you know, Kendra had a sporty one, like they each had their own little spreads too.

But all together. And you know, Bridget had.

To go to school so she missed the shower shoot and she didn't think.

It was fair.

I mean, I remember all of this, but he was like I remember them being like yeah, he just said I'm not good enough to be in the magazine, and it's like, okay, I can that's what he's doing on camera. I can see the manipulation and like, yeah, that he's

No.

Yeah, And I definitely got like the vibe of, you know, Sue Anne. The character seems like she's a little bit based on Sydney Samona Rebinstone's girlfriend who's like, yeah, no, I love him, he's great, But then also a little bit off of like Hughefner's girlfriends that were probably like, yeah, I maybe I had to take some quayloads here and there, you know, like to just do what you have to

And I think that maybe this woman was.

Like, Okay, if there's not like enough evidence and he's going to be publicly maligning me, I'm just like not going to pursue this anymore. And so she days after the allegation came out, she said that she didn't want to pursue the complaint, and investigators said that they could not corroborate her charges. I don't know how you corroborate, you know, like something happening in a room of a

Ugh Cosby was also.

As we all know, we all know, he was known to use queludes to incapacitate his victims and basically give them an amnesia.

The La County.

DA's office reviewed Chloe Goins's case, but decided not to file criminal charges against Cosby because of a uncorroborated facts and b the statute of limitations. So she filed a civil case and in twenty nineteen, Cosby's insurance company did settle with her, and Coseby was like pissed and was like that was not authorized. Like he's mad that his insurance company settled with this woman in a civil suit,

People knew on set the like female guest stars weren't allowed to go into Bill's like dressing room, and everyone was on alert to make sure no one was like near him alone, and so everyone knew, And I think I think that's why Lisa Bounet was like kicked off the show and kind of punished because she was like this is fucked up, Like.

Oh, people knew, people knew, Well, it's so true, like we've always heard all these people knew, but Hefner's official statement to the Hollywood Reporter was, quote, Bill Cosby has been a good friend for many years, and the mere thought of these allegations is truly saddening. I would never tolerate this kind of behavior, regardless of who was involved. So he's not saying Cosby's innocent, He's just saying that's my homie, and if he did this, I'm sad, but

Of it all that is what the show used.

And then, yes, as we all know, Cosby was sentenced to prison in twenty eighteen, but was released in twenty twenty one on some kind of technicality and is now free but not exonerated and does continue.

To deal with litigation, I think from a lot of his.

Accuser So that's where a lot of the inspo for the episode came from. But I'm sure that we'll do a deeper dive into Cosby in the future because it is a very you know, huge case and other episodes I believe of the show have been based on it. Thanks for all this info, fucking monsters and very pop culture heavy. I would say, yes, yes, Pokemon, go to the polls. I mean, they're talking about all kinds of stuff.

Stay right where.

You are, all right.

Today we have a very special guest, someone who is responsible for many of the words you have heard come out of Olivia Benson's mouth. And he is also the host of a podcast called Two by Guys.

He's one of them, and we.

Were just so so excited to talk to him because he wrote today's episode. So just behold our conversation with Robert Brooks Cohen. So you just told us that you have been listening to the podcast recently, And do you just sit there and go, No, that's not what we were talking about.

That's not what we meant.

Like, do you just like yell at us when you're listening?

Well, most of the time I fully agree with you, and I'm like, yes, yes, yes, But then there are a couple of times where I'm like, no, no, no, that's not what happened. And then a couple times, like later in the episode, You've you look it up and you've corrected yourself, and I'm like, oh good, they listened to me through through space and time. They heard what I was saying.

We clean up after ourselves. Do I remember this? Do you remember those moments?

I remember you were talking about the gamer Gate episode and you were talking about Adam Baldwin, I think, who was like involved with the real story. But and I and I was like, this isn't a mistake you made. I was just like, and he was on SVU did you know that? And I was yelling. I was yelling like he was on s for you. And then like later an hour later in the episode, you you figured

I hope you got your SAG card from that. Well. I loved also an Intimidation game.

I loved Ice, Like learning about Iced Tea and how much she loves video games was really cute and I enjoyed that little because we know he loves them on the outside.

Right, and that you know, we all knew that at the show, and that was a directive we were given, was give give us some video games stuff in this episode. And actually that episode was on USA last night, right before we're recording this, which so I obviously stayed up to watch it. And gosh, some of those video game references are a little a little much in hindsight where they're like game over, like what were you camping back there? It's like, I don't know that. I don't know if

Like IMDb rating of that episode is like shot to hell because of the gamers.

It's the it's the lowest of any s FORU episode in history, which I'm kind of proud of that they cared so much that they did that. But like, you guys got what we were trying to do. And I listened to that episode and I was like, yes, yes, all of the research we did, all of the things we tried to put in there to just sort of show people, Hey, this thing that you don't that you're not paying attention to gamer Gate is actually pretty serious and bad and like unfair, and what if these things

I know, people keep saying they're finding on us, Son, I'm like, I don't know how else to tell you that we're out here.

I mean, well, now, did you know that that you would tweet at us? That it would become the best thing that's happened to us. We were like so excited about that tweet. We were so pumped because you know, we are doing all this research all the time, and it was just nice to get that validation from someone on the inside being like, no, you're you're doing you know, you're on the right track of research.

I'm glad I could help you out with that. I did not realize it, but you're you guys are doing such great work. And also the the Porn Stars Requiem episode that I co wrote, I really thought you guys did such a good job breaking that one down and all the research that went into it. That was another research heavy episode, and like I was proud of that one.

Thanks.

Yeah.

So can we go back a little bit, so, like how did it all start?

How did you get onto Like you started as a researcher, writer, writer's assistant, and like what was your journey?

So I went to grad school NYU for dramatic writing. I focused on TV writing. I had a couple odd jobs for a few years out of grad school, Like I wrote voiceover for the History Channel, I like ghost wrote a how to book, some other random stuff, and then like, I through a grad school friend who was leaving his job as Warren Light's assistant. He recommended me

Yeah, had you been and you were a fan of the show, I'm like, going in, I was a big fan.

It was always my favorite of the Law and Orders. I loved the Benson Stabler dynamic, and so like, like literally two weeks into getting there, they were like, Stabler's

I was.

I was very intimidated to meet the cast when I first met.

Them, and then so you just like stayed on for like a few seasons as a writer's assistant and a researcher, and then like eventually they were like, hey, want to try your hand at a script or like how you know they just like moved you up or how did it work?

Pretty much they I got to write my first episode during my second season as an assistant, and then I wrote another one my third season as an assistant. So those were kind of like the trial periods. And then my fourth season through seventh season, I was bumped up to staff writer and like, yeah, it just kind of happened naturally. Actually, like my second season as an assistant, I found this weird case law that inspired an episode.

Sorry, you mentioned the name of the episode, so now I have to ask how annoying or do you guys love having to come up with the name title with the amount of letters of the season because it drives us insane? But how did you feel doing that?

I was gonna ask if you guys knew had figured that out. I haven't heard all your episodes. Yeah, you know. It came up in like the first week of the writer's room, like some writer kind of threw that out there as I think, half jokingly, like could we do this and could we do all? Like it's s for you two point zero So instead of one word titles, which it had been, we'll do two words and we'll

Yeah, it's like a wordle it's a little bit I wor situation.

We talked to Samantha Corbyn and she was telling us, so, it's not a traditional writer's room, right, You guys kind of go out on your own. And so when you were researching did they say, like go find this for us and you'd bring it back or did you bring them the info? How did it work without being in a room altogether?

Uh, it's a little of both. And like the assistants were always in the room every day, so for us, it kind of was more of a traditional room and we were around there, and then the more I was around, like the more or I was promoted, the less I would come in every day. But yeah, we like I would bring in stories all the time, and as the researcher, I would send out stories to inspire the other writers to find interesting stuff. And uh, so like it was, it was a mix of both, Like I think for me,

And do you know what judges and defense attorneys are going to be their guest stars? When you write or you just write general and then it's like, oh, it's Viola Davis. I mean she was old school, but like how do you kind of and then do you tweak it for the specific characters or how.

You you you kind of discuss all that, like in the early stages of the episode, like you come up with the story first the crime, like what's it based on? How are we gonna involve the main cast? But then like as you're outlining, probably before you write, you might say who would be a good defense lawyer for this? Like maybe the judge is another step down the road unless it's really vital that a specific judge is part

Yeah, that's cool. Wow, it's like a lot of moving pieces. It sounds like yes.

Yeah, well, and sometimes it leads to some great new people like I don't remember, like Raphael Sabar. What episode did you talk about? This episode you talked about Decline and Fall? Yeah, yeah, so that was like I think Raphael Sabarge Is that how I forget how you say his.

Namee Oh oh wait, it's it's it's the guy you were talking about, Lisa, that you've seen in a ton of stuff, the guy who plays.

You're a lawyer.

Yeah yeah, yeah, well, uh we looked about he was from Dexters, where like I was like, I know that man, Yeah.

Yeah, Like he was someone who I didn't I mean, I knew him as an actor, but I don't think he had been on on SVU before, and I don't remember, like you know, we were just creating a new character essentially, and he was so great, Like I loved him in that episode, and he was also such a lovely man, so like sometimes you know, you you you get a nice surprise by not having a plan for those kind of parties.

Right, And was Decline and Fall one of those big stories that you guys knew you were gonna like you all came together.

I think we got to do it.

It was a big story that like everyone knew about this h Sumner Redstone like Viacom story, and it was like not fully a sex crime story. So that was I mean, it sort of was because he it's very weird, creepy guy, but like it wasn't like he was accused of something at that moment.

It was it was kind of like a what if Sumner Redstone was accused of a crime like Bill Cosby committed kind of you know.

Right, yeah exactly. So I think it was you know, when we pitched it was like, oh that that works, Like people got it quickly, but it wasn't like one we knew we had to do. So I think me and the writer I wrote that with pitched it. But it was a pretty easy like easy yes, you have more than enough to work with, Go go write it. Yeah.

Yeah, such a good twist. Okay, that was exciting. Did you guys high five when you broke that twist or what?

Oh the twist?

Oh it was he raised it was the daughter in law?

Oh right, yeah yeah, yeah, oh that was that is interesting. I love that twist. Yeah, I almost forgot because.

That even though I know, like that one, you see it once or twice and then it's still surprising, like you're like, wait, oh whoa, yeah, so that was like a nice twist you guys came up with.

I forget, I forget how we came up with it, but honestly, like it's a twist that is surprising but kind of makes sense, and it's it's not something we haven't done before, like I was just before we recorded listening to your interview last week or with Samantha mathis about the Woody Allen episode, which I also co wrote, and uh and she, by the way, she's incredible. I just loved working with her. And that's another one where.

Like, well, I'm not a west wing person, right, isn't Bradley?

And then I guess I should also say anyone from Arrested Development. I was obsessed with too Ya Tambour. But also, you know, you have an actress like Celia Keenan Bolger. You know, she's not just going to be the sister that's in one scene. She's incredible and that was the twist where she had been abused by this So it's actually the same, the same twist that we reused, but it is a good one and it makes sense.

Oh yeah, I mean SPU reuses a twist and I'm still totally like, what, Like, you know it's his sister.

I mean, were you there? Why do I always forget his name?

Buster?

What's his real name?

Oh? Tony Hale?

Were you there for Tony's episode?

Yeah, Okay, I didn't. I didn't write one, so I didn't get to like chat with him too much, but I like did walk down a hallway with him and I said hi, and I was.

Like, oh, so great.

How much do you like chat with the actors? Like when you write an episode, do you like say like, here's what we're thinking here, or like let them interpret it themselves, or like what's the.

If I'm on set and it's my episode, As long as they want to, you end up chatting with them a lot, Like if they want to ask questions about the script, I'm all about that, and I will to answer. And you know, you're sitting around when you're on set a lot, they're they're turning the cameras around, there's breaks and so you if the actor doesn't run to their dressing room, then you're sitting with them for a while. So uh so, yeah, there there's quite a bit of that.

Any any faves besides your West Wing people specifically that you can remember.

Well, yeah, I mean there's there's all the West Wing people. There was She wasn't in my episode, but Donna from the West Wing. Janelle Maloney was in an episode. There's a lot of West Wing alums who I was like obsessed with. But you know, this is like a easy answer,

Oh amazing. I love that. So that's a that's a do meet your heroes story.

I like that well, And should I jump Can I jump in and meet your heroes about Marishka? Because if I'm gushing about Raoul, I should just briefly say like she I was a fan of the show. She is everything that people say about her and then some she's just the she's like a genius actress, Like I think she can do anything. But she's also just the kindest, warmest person. She like took me under her wing, like once we got to know each other, just like so

Pretty magical. I met Baby Coco Chanel.

Yeah, she was around the set a bit when I was there. She was pretty young, Like I haven't you know, spoken with her. Yeah, I think she's only like six now.

But I have a question, like regarding decline and fall, because you know you did so kindly share your research with me. And I loved that because I was like, oh, these are probably articles I would have found, but you just like did the work for me, and and like, so I'm curious about how the show is so based on real stuff. Sometimes you see that card at the beginning that says, this does not.

Depict any real people.

A couple times we've seen episodes that say, even like, while this episode is based on a real event or person, we have changed it.

Blah blah blah.

How much of a real story is there, like a certain amount, Like you know, how the WGA. It's like if you write a certain amount of lines, you get the credit for being the writer. Like how much of it has to be old from real life? Where you guys have to do that card at the beginning, like the disclaimer.

Yeah, And I also saw an episode recently where the card was at the end. It was like an early season episode, and it was like the preceding story was fictional, Like why did it go at the end instead of that?

It's like, we know what you're thinking. Stop stop that.

I have absolutely no insight into the title card of it all like I don't know why they're sometimes there sometimes not. No clue must be a legal thing and possibly related to like different legal people each season to question I can connect to. But I will say you we did have to like change Sometimes we would send a script over and the legal department would say, this

It's like the Woody Allen episode is such the Woody Allen I mean like there's no way.

You know, like there's so many episodes.

That at the end there's that Polanski twist where he leaves town.

Right. Well, actually some sometimes by combining two stories, that's how we got away with it being different. Yeah, the Woody Allen is like, no, he's a TV director, not a Yeah, yeah, very different.

He's not Jewish in this one, yeah exactly.

Well, yeah, Wendy, so is combining stories just for legal or something like American tragedy. I think you were undering that where it was like Paula Dene and Trevon Martin, Like, how how do you decide what goes together and what doesn't.

Most of the time we made those decisions not for legal reasons, but just for creative choices, like like this would be a cool mashup, or like thematically it makes sense, or it heightens the drama of both of these stories to kind of put them together. I can't I don't know if that exactly applies to the Pologan Trayvon Martin episode. Yeah, I'd have to rewatch it to see if that was the right choice. But but yeah, like you know, we we liked to do that, and just like you know,

And like so sometimes when we're doing these, we always like look at, you know, when the story happened versus when the episode happened, and sometimes it's like four months. Like sometimes it's so quick, like a story hits the news and then it's on it's airing on television like four months later. Would you ever remember a time where they were like, oh, snap, like hurry sham maney Ramsey just happened like get like write it up, like.

Was you know, was there ever like that kind of thing?

Yeah? Oh, that happens all the time. And it's like, oh, you've been working on your episode for months, you're getting pushed back a month because we have to do this one faster. That. That may have been one of them, the Pouladine thing. Oh I remember, like you just mentioned it on episode the escape from Dana Mora thing. Oh yeah, yeah, I think we did. I think we did one about that that was sure to get quick. It wasn't it a Chicago crossover episode.

Or something, and it was it was.

I feel like that was a pretty quick one because that was like a huge story that everyone was captivated by and spawned its own entire series. Yeah, not only that.

You know, what everyone always requests from us is the fucking William Lewis episodes, And to us, it's like, well, we're scared and we don't want to watch that, Like, yeah, that is a crew making that seeing like you know, Olivia Benson in that situation, like those episodes are fucked up, and you know, he's burning his fingertips that like they all our listeners.

Want it, and we're like, we're not ready.

I mean, we'll do it eventually, we just need to like work.

Our way up series finale. Yeah, And it's not really based on like a specific real story either. It's based on like what is the worst possible thing that could

And then for you, do you have any episodes that like stick in your mind from like either researching or writing where you were like, wow, like this case is like fucking with my mind like this, like you know what I mean, like some like an episode that haunted you or a real life case that kind of stuck with you.

Yeah, a lot, Like you're.

Like I haven't slept in ten years.

I mean, I like I will say like the for you guys too, even talking about these episodes often, like it does take a toll on you.

And now our schedule is based on that, so we can get like a week or two breaks in between research because there are some that are just like I can't do this.

Yeah, yeah, it's it is difficult, and it's like you don't realize it sometimes how much it's affecting you until you stop looking at it for a while. And like when I was at Us for You, all my friends and family used to send me any story they saw that could be for show. They would email it to me and used to be like, okay, cool, like you're helping me with my work. And then when I left the show, they would still do that and I immediately I was like, please stop sending me this stuff. I

Yeah, we've covered Downloaded Child and some other episodes that deal with like you know, child sex abuse images and stuff, and like it is something about that just because it seems so vast and there's just like it is whack a mole, Like there's just you can try to get rid of it as much as you want, but it's like it's just you know, so there is something kind of dark, really dark about that.

But have you ever been in like casual hangouts with friends and then you start talking about what you researched all day and they're like can you stop? That happens to me where I just will stop, start talking about stuff and not realize that we're at a fun gathering.

Yeah, oh yeah, all the time, all the time, especially when I was working there, Like I had, I had no filter about this stuff because we talked about it at work all the time and and at the you know, in the writer's room, like you kind of have to joke about it sometimes because otherwise it's just too heavy and like we we don't put those jokes in, like, but like you have to. And then I would sometimes repeat some of those jokes to friends and they're like,

Episodes that you pushed harder cases that got rejected?

It wasn't really mine, but I supported this episode, but there was like a there was an episode we were calling Fractured Chakras. Count the letters and you can figure out what season that was, and it was like it was that yoga guru guy who was like a cult leader, blanking on his name. But oh it was the hot it's the hot yoga guy. Yeah he's not hot. It's hot yoga. It's yeah, I think. And we were gonna do an episode where the women he abused broke his penis, which I thought was kind of funenis.

Broken and he loves to talk about it.

Oh really yeah, he's like in medical medical textbooks. Okay, yeah, he's he has a little scar. He'll show anybody.

I think we ended up not doing that episode because nobody wanted to think about.

A broken penis. Yeah, that's really funny.

Robert, we have to ask you, do you have any feelings on RELEASEI the Rollins and Coores relationship.

Did you was that always a plan that it was going to have endgame or what were they like?

Oh, we never got to give them Elliott and Olivia, so now we're going to give them these two or like, was there any talk of that.

It's funny they're together now on the show, aren't Yeah? Yeah? Yeah, interesting.

He's a stepdaddy. I always wanted.

And did you know that I co wrote Intent, which is also covered.

Yes, where they where she rejects him at that hotel?

Yep.

Yeah, yeah, because I actually interrupted Kara because she was talking about it. But she doesn't think Caresey's hot. I do, and I was like, you need to shut up, Karen. I'm going to take over this part because the rejection really was really tough. But I just don't think she was ready to let Levi into her life. You know, she's had a tough upbringing and like I just got her journey and not accepting what he was giving.

I understand that. I'm sorry Kara that you can't see how I can't.

See him, you know what.

I think he's toned down his accent. But when he first came on the scene and he was like A like, I was like I can't with this, yeah, like and I'm sunny like, I was like, it was too much for me. It was like cartoony. But I think he's really calmed it down, especially now that he's an eighty a you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's definitely very cute. I would put him in the cute category. I don't know quite about hot, but yeah.

Okay, okay, intent was good.

And that guy who's the main guy in that because I love him from Shameless.

He was great. That episode was kind of fun. You guys covered that one really well.

Oh thank you.

I mean the true crime of that is so wild. It's like we just had to make sure Karen didn't research it.

I was like, don't look into this same let me fucking I was telling a tale.

Oh and oh Steve Howie, Steve Howie. Yeah, Steve Howie was great. He was really fun to work with. And Okay, before I answer your Roleisi question about intent there. When I listened to your episode, I wanted to add something, which was, you know, you talked about that hashtag who is the Hand? And you were like, this is a little bit of a weird hashtag and it's like, but I get it. It's what it insta, you know, TikTok

Yeah, this is become a real thing.

Yeah, because now it's like the soft launch of a relationship where it's like two beers on a table like it is kind of now SVU is always ahead of the curve, and I do feel like now that is an official like thing that you do when you first start her.

Yeah, is that Christmas episode that we did, She's on her way to the Bahamas, and I think it's Cassidy.

That's the hand.

We don't know for sure, but like we were led to believe that it's Cassidy.

Do you have a favorite Marishka boyfriend lover moment? Like is there someone that you liked her with or who you see her with eventually.

Or not at all?

Yeah, I mean, well, I really liked Harry Connick Junior. I thought that was kind of fun. Okay, okay, but like in terms of my endgame, had I stayed at the show, I was a big Tucson fan. I just thought the evolution of her and Tucker was so cool and made a lot of sense, and like, I you know, I didn't love how Tucker was portrayed in the early seasons, and I loved how he evolved and that made so much sense to me, and then it made sense that

Then release Ray and okay, so Raleisi.

I was always into but I will, but like, I don't know, I don't know if it's my favorite romantic relationship because like I always kind of saw it as like a brother sistery relationship, and actually, in intent, I'm pretty sure I was the reason that they didn't just hook up like the other that we had knew. But my co writer was also new that year, and I think he was pushing for them to hook up, and I was like, I don't know if I see it.

They're also for they're not going to do it for the first time in a motel in West Virginia. I know that, like I, that's that's not the fantasy. I don't think for anyone. But that's hilarious. You are Oh my gosh, I.

Feel like block of it. You're a releasey cock blocker.

Yeah, yeah, that was me. I also think I secretly and also eventually not so secretly, wanted to have Corezy come out as bisexual because because I am bisexual and it just like made it sense to me more than any other character on the show. But that never happened.

Okay, well, I wanted to ask you this because I did.

That's what I want, Barber, bar easy, I forgot that's what I wanted.

This is what I was going to ask you because we saw that you have a podcast called two by Guys. You want to shout out the podcast obviously, and we we have received from a lot of our listeners a theory that Raoul Arza was playing Barba as by.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

Is that true?

Is that like a good like a cool theory, but no fact or like cause, I because when you said brother and sister, it reminded me of how I used to feel about Olivia and Barba. I always people are like, I love them together, and I'm like, I just thought that they were bro and sis. Like I never saw the I never saw the chemistry sexually between them.

But other people obviously.

Do totally agree with that, and I think Barba and Benson have perhaps a closer relationship than many romantic partners have, like it's so deep and they like really have a deep understanding of each other. But I agree it was always more professional slash brothers sisterly and I didn't see the spark there of romance. And in terms of Barbara being bisexual as a character, like I know that Raulu identifies as by and he is is very much that character, and I think that's a fair way to read it.

Like the rich day Yeah, the.

Rich, weird aloft, hyper intelligent, yes, and so like he you know, we didn't ever want to like make that a big part of the character, and for fear would take away from other aspects of the character, you know, looking back, I don't. I was never out as by at the show. I came out during my last year there to my friends, but I was never out at work except to a few people who were also queer. But I came out publicly, like within a month or

Sure, but I.

Kind of wish there was more of talk about queerness and main character who are queer on the show.

Yeah, I think we Ha was and then they ditched her after a season, and I know we didn't understand that.

And we also talked to Bed Wong, and I know he was before your time, I think on the show. I don't think he came back any of your episodes, but like he was talking about how his character kind of was just like served a purpose and like never really had more of like a personal life or like an identity, and he kind of wished that it had a little bit.

So that's interesting, right, I met Bed once. He was in one episode during my time there. He came back for you know, a special guest star, and yeah, I always thought that was kind of weird. He like came his character came out right before he kind of left the show, And like, I don't know, I do think it's such a mainstream network show that there's always like a little bit of a fear of alienating fans with queerness.

So it's just like very funny to that there are people that are like, I watch this show for the rape and the murder. I'm not here for all this gay stuff, Like what are you you know, Like we used to get that a lot of like critiques of our podcast at the beginning was like, I didn't come

It's strange because also with the when they had the Black Lives Matter episodes Twitter, people were really mad about it and like and then it's like, no, all the episodes are based on the news. If you're only upset about the sudden Black Lives Matter news, like you need to look inward because it's always been this with what's happening in the world. But it enraged people the COVID season that I dealt so much with race and internal racism within the department.

I don't know.

Yeah, it's a it's a tough thing to balance, and it is because it is like a very political show. Like it's about the criminal justice system. It's about sex crimes and sexual assault, which are things that are hot, you know, hotly debated in our politics for for worse, Like there shouldn't be debates about these things, but there are. And like it's a tough balance because like I know, you know Warren if you follow who's the showrunner now and for most of the time I was there, he's

Yes, we always say talk about it that it's a fantasy. We're like, this is a fantasy of the justice system, of course.

Like it's not. I mean, once in a while, Olivia is chasing.

Down a one of.

The victims, not even pressing charges, and she's like, I think I'm gonna still work on this on my free time. Like it's like, you know, obviously a lot of it is not realistic.

But early seasons they did a good job of any cops outside of the unit were like so the Panny Police, you know, they were all so mean, and so I always did appreciate that they put down other cops.

I mean, we've had you for eight hours. I'm so sorry.

I know this has been like we could truly talk to you for a full other hour, but we should probably wrap it up and let you get back to say one thing about that, Yes, and I want to know, yeah, go first.

Well.

Also, also just on that topic, I'll say, like one of the things I got to do as the researcher and also a writer was work with a lot of our technical consultants. So we had like former Sex Crimes cop of former Sex Times, da Medical Examiner, other stuff, and like they were great and they help us kind of figure out how to do the show as accurately as we can. But most of the time I would say, how,

Yeah, because we then do the research on the crime and so much of our researches, and then the cops decided not to investigate. They didn't do that, they didn't believe her. They actually threw her out and said, you're a dumb whore. You know.

It's like you're reading the research.

And you're like, oh my god, cops from coast to coast are just refusing to do their jobs in any capacity.

Yeah, exactly.

I was gonna.

Say, is there an episode that you worked on and wrote that we should cover that we have not?

Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. One of my favorite ones that I wrote that was just like, if there's such a thing as a fun episode of S for you, this was the most fun. Is called assaulting Reality.

Oh no, I'm obsessed. Obsessed The Bachelor. It's like it's like it's like.

Unreal, I want you want to do that one? And I want to get Wendy Malick.

Yes, yes, Wendy Malick was so good and uh and her her counterpart in that episode was so good. I'm blanking on his names.

The dad from Family Ties, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm obsessed with her, like I'm a Wendy Malix Stan.

I love her and also I fanboyd with this one was the girl woman who played the younger producer Larissa Oline.

Oh, yes, she was Alex Max.

She was Alex Mack.

Yes, that episode I think is based they said on sexual assault from Big Brother, right you told me that.

Yes, yes, there isn't There isn't a ton to talk about with that story, but there's a little bit. Yeah, it's kind of based on something.

And it seemed like it was kind of going on at the same time as Unrel was on and everybody was talking about Unreal.

Yeah. Oh, we totally in the writer's room were like, we love Unrel me and my co writer, Yeah, love Unreal. Can we do our version of Unreal? It's also like I thought that Decline and Fall was our version of Succession. I think I wrote that to you in an email. Yes, but then I looked it up and it turns out our SVU episode aired before Succession started.

So well, that happens all the time, though, I mean like sometimes we get like we'll research, like something will happen on SVU and like the crime happens ten years later, like a real crime that matches up with it exactly like happens ten years later.

It's really crazy.

Is there anything you'd like to plug or talk more about your podcast or any final thoughts or words or anything.

This is obviously been magical.

This has been lovely. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. My podcast is called Two Bay Guys. It's about like mail by some actuality and gender fluidity, and like, I'm trying to get back onto doing television stuff too and writing a lot of stuff about that because I think there's not that much out there about male sexual fluidity and masculinity. It's very like people have a lot of shame about this stuff, like I did for a long time.

Do you watch it Insecure?

Yeah, I've like season one Ye had a baby storyline. That's all I could think of, And you know, we do watch so much television.

Yeah, there is a lot more the last couple of years. There was there was a storyline on I May Destroy You Too that I thought was, yes, yes, there's I'm like Transparent is one of my favorite shows. Although there's no male bisexual characters there, but there's a lot of good queer stuff there. Yeah, there's more, Kimny.

I have to ask you one final question that Liza did put in the document and I thought it was silly, but now I feel like it could be a fun way to end this podcast and this episode Decline and Fall.

Have you ever tried quay ludes?

No?

Yeah, yeah, we for every episode I researched. I always have to got to try the drive put myself in the place of the characters. No, I haven't, but you know, in the right consensual circumstance, could be fun.

No, we are best friends with him now. I want everyone to know.

He did come to our live show in LA and we hung out with him until two in the morning. He's a wonderful man and.

Drank in the green room.

And we're never going to reveal any of this, but we got off We got off the record scoop as well. So we are appreciative to Robert forever. And I would like to go dancing with him, so hopefully he knows that's going to be forced.

Upon him at any moment.

Yeah, we'll be socializing with him at a future date for sure.

No, it's incredible.

I love hearing about all like I like the process I like the job, I like the work. I like hearing about the work. So yeah, it was really fucking cool.

Just Y, I don't know. I really liked him.

And who knew that one tweet compliment with suddenly put two Jewish women into his life that he'll never be able to shake away.

So well, I think he's also Jewish.

But yeah, I just I loved his insights and it's fun to hear how you know they combine the stories, how they find stories, you.

Know, stuff like that. That's kind of the bread and butter of our podcast.

And it was a casting, the defense attorneys, the subbing in and out. It's who gets him excited, you know. And I arrested development west Wing Scoop. Send it Robert's way. He wants to know, have you fucked someone from those shows? You tell him get into those dms and give that info.

Yeah.

I like the Also that no one can tell us this was based off the wrong crime because he told us what crime was based off of and gave me all of his information.

So I loved that.

I loved being able to get straight out of the writer's room.

No, it's really wild who we get to talk to. It's it never really gets old for me. Yeah, talented, passionate, cool people just really giving us their time, and I like that.

Yeah, this is a this was a crazy episode. What did you feel like you gleaned from this that crazy old, rich white men are insane and should not be allowed to think that they are living forever.

And turn the rich burn them to death everywhere. I don't care always your uncle rich, well we're burning him, that's what.

And it's all just so deep.

I mean, these post mortems with time are just so depressing. It's just like every week we're like, well, I guess we learned. Everything's a nightmare and there's nothing we can do about it. Yeah, and next week join us. No, and here's a and here's an organization that's trying their best, but don't worry, they'll never truly solve anything because the horrors of the world are ever everlasting and changing.

Then we can have a more postmortem.

I think it's I thought it was interesting to look at how Sumner Redstone's family life was, like like working with your parents or working with a family member is so complicated, and like how business just fucked up their relationships so much, you know, like I don't know all these family conglomerates that are just like generations of inherited wealth and you know, inherited power. It's like wild and so dysfunctional.

Well, because I wonder if love is void in their upbringings so they don't value it in terms of interpersonal relationships. Like if you're just judging people on like who has what and who is what, and it's not deeper real, then like you'll never be able to learn that, I don't think. I think then you marry another rich person with a title, and then you have kids and you send them to boarding school and teach them how to be dicks, and like, yeah, that's why these people just

Yeah, And I mean sending facts is to it from your dad.

Wow, Like I don't know how you're doing it, like, oh my god, faxing. But you know, I mentioned a friend of ours got to go to that white Lotus resort and she just said it was silent. Rich families not smiling or enjoying themselves, just like existing in paradise with no excitement, and that that.

Is that is their lives.

I don't know.

That is sad, Yeah, because we all like want to be rich, but then the people that just are rich are not usually friendly.

But it says it best about New York.

She goes, you can't tell me a place with only rich people is the best place to be. It's just not true, you know what I mean, Like, a place with only rich people is not good.

Yeah, that's a great quote.

What's the what's the place that's really fancy? And your Monte Carlo montevist Like, what is the Monte Carlo?

I think, no, but what's the one? Sandro pe No, what's like It's.

Like Monico, Monaco, Monico, Monico.

That's the wild.

One, right, Monte Carlo, I feel like, is supposed to be hop But where even is that?

I'm like that in Monaco? Maybe maybe?

Yes, Monte Carlo is officially an administrative area of the Principality of Monaco.

Yes, that's it.

We were both right, and we're going to make a party of Monte Carlo someday.

Now.

I just wanna I want a coast where those little houses are all tight together, and you're looking at like a village of tight houses that are up on a Cliff like, that's what I want.

That's what I want kind of what I'm looking at right now in a picture of Monte Carlo, right, But they're like, that's you know I think you're talking about. Like that was also like Porto Fino and like that Talian of vi Era. Yeah, so beautiful. We went. We went right from eat the rich, kill all money to like where we would go on a great vacation if we had the money. We're you know what, we all contain morelitudes and we'd like to think about, you know,

You know?

This is our weekly segment where we give you guys a resource about something to give you more knowledge about something we learned in today's episode. And I thought it was kind of interesting how this teen in the show kept being like, oh, it's true, like you do have to like get a girl to sign a contract a qustor these days, and like he'd been taught all these shitty views of consent and you know what it means to initiate romantic contact with someone, And so I think

Like no one should be sitting there frozen, not speaking.

You know.

I think that, you know, it's really important to teach teenagers about consent and the necessity of consent being verbal and so you know, it's awkward conversations, but they're ones that we have to have. So this is a handy dandy little PDF that will help you with that convo.

So check that out.

And as always, all of our what would sister peg dos from all time are in our highlight WWSPD on our Instagram.

Amazing. Thank you so much for that. Yeah, consent is important. It's so weird that rape is just part of our culture and for thousands of years like just no big deal.

It's like, oh my god.

But yeah, so I'm really hopeful for all these children learning all these new ways to respect humanity. Anyways, next week we'll be doing a silly episode, Send in the Clowns, Send in the Clowns. Fun Fun, Fun Season nineteen episodes seventeen.

It's a wild one. Buckle up. It's fun.

Cannot wait to talk to you guys next week. Thank you for always listening. We appreciate it so much. Xoxo.

Yeah, talk to you guys next week. Bye bye.

That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Klank and.

At glitter Cheese.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you, so much to our produce Sir Analie Nelson.

And to our mixer John Bradley, and.

To Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly gen Andrews for our artwork.

Thank you to.

Our executive producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Danielle Kramer and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

Listen, follow and leave us the review on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and don't forget.

You can listen to new episodes one week early on Amazon Music or early and ad free by subscribing to Wondry Plus in the Wondry Apple.

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