Criminal w/ Doug E. Doug

Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

These are our stories, done done.

Hello, Welcome to That's Messed Up an SVU podcast.

I am Lisa.

Hello, Hello, and I am Kara, And it is so great to be here on our podcast. So where we talk about an episode of SVU the true crimeate's based on and we interview an amazing guest and I'm I'm pumped you. I have to tell you. Lisa Rosie is in these swim lessons right now that are intensive swim lessons, Like every day she goes for thirty minutes for eight days and the man that is teaching them is a

And our friends is it both the other daughters are just one just okay, it's older.

You know, almost every kid in this in this group, there's a few of you. Oh my god, they do two groups of three. They only go three at a time, and you know all like you know, all the kids except for maybe one.

I did realize it.

So you all get this pool and then he comes to you, guys and revolutionizes your children's life.

Yes, and the first three go for thirty minutes and then they leave, and then the next thirt three go and he like, yeah, but apparently this technique that he teaches is like a lot of people teach it, but for some reason in the swim world in La, a bunch of the people that teach it will not get vaccinated. And it's like you're going to be up close with a child in a pool during a pandemic, like you have to get vaccinated. So we found like the one guy who gets vaccinated, and so it was so hard

I I did stop teaching swim lessons I think my senior year of high school.

But I was good it also is impossible to book you. That is true, really too hard. I don't have these skills. I don't think they would respect me. The kids that I know, there's a predetermined relationship where they're like Liza, like she Rosie would just be talking about all your tattoos.

Yeah, like it when we're Oh I did book a tattoo appointment.

So you have been near someone. I just got one of those COVID things. You've been near someone with COVID, go like yourself. How are we still getting those? Yeah, we all have it.

Leave us alone. We're onto the next monkey pox.

Oh no, yeah, by the way, if you can get I don't know. I was listening to another podcast with Alaska and Wilhelm, and Alaska was like, went to get the monkey pox's vaccine and was like, I am a gay man, I am a entertainer. I am in the population, hugging people traveling to different countries. I qualify. And they were like, you need a doctor's note saying that you qualify. Like they're making it annoying for people to get monkey pox's vaccines.

Yeah, well because it's like they think it's a gay thing or something.

Yeah, and it's just sad that we haven't learned anything from COVID, Like I thought the next RESI we.

Learned nothing from anything. We're burning books.

I just like they're taking Judy Bloom out of the libraries. I mean, we are living in fucking a Ray Bradberry short story. Like, I don't know what to say but the good news. And I know we're in the time machine and this is very old news by now, but I was really happy to see that Kansas News this morning when I woke up the in Kansas they voted overwhelmingly to keep abortion protections in their in their constitution, their state constitution. And I just think that's seventy five

I mean, in the words of your husband, they're soft headed.

Yeah, I don't know they're true to true, But what of that? What else is going on summer fune, I.

Don't even know. I'm just you know, trying to.

Get through things going things when this airs, I think they'll be in upstate New York or in Manhattan and Brooklyn vibes. So I don't know.

Yes, I don't know what to say. Yeah, I just don't know if I can pack again. Like my my mental well being is truly hinged unpacking, and it's I can't.

I wonder if there's someone you could pay to help you or like do a task gravity person, like who's like an organ?

Suitcases are so heavy and I'm just lugging it miserable, and then the every Uber driver's upset with me, and it's like I don't like this either, sir, Like this isn't exciting for me, but.

At least I met.

When you travel to New York, it's better because you drop off laundry everywhere. It may like drop off laundry being the standard in New York is like have it's just the best.

Yeah, I love drop off laundry. I used to love. Oh my gosh, I really love that I have my own laundry now and I have to do it myself, and you know, it's not my favorite, but I guess it is convenient.

No, the house is fine too, but like having these people that are incredible, they fold it. It's in a vat. It's like it's heaven. It was heaven, and I like picked my apartments to make sure there was one close. Oh yeah, Oh my god.

I was like always with a Santa sac going down the street every couple of weeks. Yeah. I don't want to do that, but yeah, summer fun. I mean, my birthday is August thirty first. Oh, this episode comes out the day before your birthday. So my birthday is August thirty first, so am tomorrow. Yeah.

So I already made reservations like about two months ago for a lunch at laburnaden a little three course action, not the full tasting menu. But it's been a dream to go to La Bernadette. And I'm going with two like foody top chef fans. So they know who Eric Repair is, so that's nice. That's gonna bet.

I don't actually know that.

You know, Repair, he's the king of seafood. He looks like King Triton, like white hair, blue eyes, French accent, and he he is just the king of seafood really and just the standard in the world.

And that's what Laburnadonne is. Yeah, that's his restaurant. Oh, I didn't know it was seafood. I assumed it was just like fancy French.

No, and he sadly was best friends with Bourdain.

They are best buds.

Oh so he'll he like cried like they were best buddies. But yeah, just like a New York King, French legend and a great you know, Top Chef. There's lots of cooking shows, but Top Chef does get the highest caliber of chefs in the world come on that show and so you get to learn. I got to learn about all the best chefs through Top Chef.

Yeah, and you know I have I have met Padma, Tom Calichio, and Gail in different ways throughout my life, so I have had some action with each of them, which makes me thrilled. Tadma came to my stand up show in New York one time that I ran every week, but I wasn't there. She was at the cellar and she was in all light and I saw her and it was an angel, an angel and white Gail. I saw Molly at the Lizzo concert. Oh, yes, I was with you, but I didn't see Gail.

Yeah, and she just like came at me like an angel. And then Tom Colikio, I did an MSNBC News.

I remember that. I do recall that you got to do that with Tom Klicks.

Yeah, it was huge, went to Strip House before then got carbon monoxide poisoned in the night. I mean, life is really an up and down journey.

I really like, I don't I just gave up on Top Chef even though I loved it. I really liked that here, like I just don't have time and it's the same thing every season. Even though I loved it, I loved seeing what they did and I was like, this is there's so much talent, you know. But yeah, I just.

Dip in and out.

But I did watch The Master like The Masters all Winners, or like the best of the Best like Battle of Champions and then the Hottest Person Ever Melissa One.

And yeah, and I do love going to one of their restaurants if I'm in a place where there's like a When I hear about a Top Chef person's restaurant, I'm like, oh, that will be good, you know, as opposed to like, I don't know a lot of other shows I wouldn't miss. I would never really like hunt down the winners to go do something.

No, because Chops is trying to fuck you, Like all the others are trying to fuck you in weird ways. But Top I mean, Top Ship's trying to fuck you. But it's in. It's just classier. It's just Bravo is classier. Like I don't know what to say. Bravo is a caliber of reality competition television that not many outside of Drag Race have been able to emulate.

Yeah, yeah, can you imagine you to hear? First, drag Race moved to Bravo. Can you imagine?

No?

But I'm you know, I'm listening.

I listened to Brian Moylan's book and like Bravo, I mean, Project Runway moving to Lifetime was like sad and wild. It did decrease the brand and like, okay, yeah, Carley Kloss's dumb ass.

So I stopped watching when they moved to Lifetime.

I was still pretty hooked, but once Carl Closs came clamping her way in, I said, no, thank you, no thank you.

I mean it was disgusting to me. Oh god, but yeah.

Just high class, like the high class people were on Project Runway, you know, like real everybody.

Those are like good reality shows too, because everyone's very talented it's not make Yeah.

Sometimes I watch compilations of Michael Corer's giving criticism on Project Runway.

Frankly I was underwhelmed.

Well also his architectural digests I love because there's like vases everywhere and finally goes, I mean, we just love a vessel in this house. But he has a fucking penthouse in the West Village and I think that's like the ultimate dream, Like I can't think of anything more somebody who.

I really think he is so funny and I know he's talented, but I do not like his stuff when I see it in stores.

In stores he's like ready to wear.

Not as much, but his red carpet shit is amazing, Like, oh, Okate Hudson always looks amazing in it. His Michael Core's red carpet dresses I think are always yea, his.

Picture stuff is probably really nice and his his his his red well Lauren Taylor stuff's not doing it for me.

But I think his red carpet looks like if you just google, I think you would be into them, to be honest, because you like a chikh simple vibe.

Yes, yes, so I think you would like him.

But even sap Posen like like touching the fabric, the way they talk about smooth stitching. It's just like I just love people that love what they do and watching

Yeah yeah, and he yeh ru has launched the careers of a thousand ships, you know, like but.

He changed every like dry like it became it's mainstream. Kids are going to DragCon, Like who would have thought that thirty years ago?

Yeah, oh my god, that's so funny. I just we'd have Rosie and Oscars. Kid badges from DragCon are like part of the toys they play with. And I was just picking them up and like hanging them up earlier. I was like thinking to myself, Wow, I bet conservatives would hate that I have like two badges to draggon hanging in my kids rooms, just the worst.

It's like, why don't you start with the Catholic Church. It's just like they're just bonkers, just hateful, bonkers people.

How do we always end up.

We always enraging, like yes, against the Christian right, we try it.

I guess it's oppressive. I mean that's the whole point.

It's like it's overbearing and nuts and it feels but not really, we're not near it. I don't know. It's all very strange. Yeah, all right, I'm sorry. I just went on a weird speech about reality TV show judges, and I might I'm ashamed, But I don't think you should feel passionate. And I think you are that person and who is passionate about things, and television is one of the things you are passionate about. Yes, yes, yes, all right, let's get started speaking of passion for television.

Hungary, let's get this going.

Today's episode. I'm excited. This is a fucking banger of an up, so let's get into it.

Bang or no.

Cara text to me being like, oh my god, I forget this episode's fucking incredible. So oh Before we start, we have to mention if you have not seen our posts on Instagram and social media, we are going on tour, so check out all of the cities that we're going to buy some tickets. Let's sell out, we'll meet all of you, We'll get drunk. I can't wait. We'll be in the Midwest, the East Coast, southeast, South Texas, everywhere that you live, we will be there. Except the Dakotas.

All right, let's get into today's episode Criminal, Season five, episode twenty one. Oh this aired on four to twenty. Lisa in two thousand way, hell yeah, it's a four twenty episode, baby, And.

Should I spark a bowl, I would do it two thousand and four. Yeah, Well, I wouldn't smoke a joint because I respect you, but.

Maybe a baby boy. I wouldn't care. So up in season five, is a banger of a season like we've done. When I was going through the Hulu, I was like, wait, we've done that one, that one that we've done a lot of Season five episodes. I think they were really hitting their stride and it was a hot season. So we open on a cold New York day and a marigold salesman. There's like a man pulling a pushcart with

Like if you're a true sociopath, that's like a prank you can pull on someone, Yeah, and in crime tape around their house exactly.

And in this show we've done, we've had people buy full cop uniforms like impersonate myriad professions, so easy to get police tape, you can get uniforms and shit too, So the woman has no idea she died a strangulation. Melinda said she was probably sexually assaulted as well, but she's been out here for a long time, so we won't really know until the autopsy. And they point out that her fingernails were clipped post mortem, and Stabler's like, how do you guys know that? And then Benson, who

Yeah, but then like porn stars do do that, sure, it depends like what your trade is, like yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't think it's encouraged.

I feel like just like vagicill like created, like you've got to be doing this, ladies. If you're not, you're not fresh down there. And it's everything is marketing. Yeah, like Razor, like women didn't shave before. Advertising execs said, you guys are gross come out with that. And that's why it's.

So silly that people who think they're like they're just such marks for companies and government.

It's so weird, you know, like you're so you hold like these people hold these.

Beliefs so strong, but it's not they're not even real, Like you're just simping for advertising execs.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know what I mean.

Like your whole frame of mind is built on people tricking you to make money, and you think that you're like this clever person. Right yeah, it's against like women having hairy arms. But really you just love advertising, well you love money? Yeah?

Do that make sense? Should?

I didn't even smoke a bowl. If you guys are.

Wondering, people, wow, something switch, keep it in, keep it in.

So uh.

Melinda says that also she found a small piece of latex and you can tell, like from a condom, and you can tell that it's like that the condom broke from the tear pattern on this small piece and the brand. She was able to match it to the brand, which is called Twisted Desire. Now, I know in a former episode rough Rider condoms ended up being real. We thought they were fake and they were real, So of course I googled Twisted Desire to see if they were real.

Yeah?

No, I think it's like the the contouring of the condom is like, you know, ribbed in like a twist because ooh, that's gonna feel better. It's like it's probably not anyway. They also get a match on the victim Prince and they finally identify this poor dead woman as Rebeccah Wheeler. She lives at Claremont one hundred and seventh and her time of death was sometime last week and she ate right before she was killed because Melinda found

That's straight from a forensic files. Like that shit's real. Yeah, Like they do contents of stomach to solve christ.

I remember Michael Baden doing that all the time, like figuring out the stomach stuff, yeah, or like where the maggots are in their growth.

Really cool love forensic times.

At Rebecca's apartment, they do find the sushi receipts Friday night, eight oh five. She got a bunch of sushi obviously enough for two, so she was eating with another person. Craigan is there and he thinks it could still be a cop. Rebecca has all this stuff up on her wall, like stop police brutality free Paedro Sanchez, so she's somehow involved in you know, the justice system, and Huang is there ready to profile. He says, this killer is organized, intelligent,

But you know what else? It could be the housewives.

What do you mean, Well, there was a vibrator in the chicken that one time, So I'm just saying, like, turkey baster in the bathtub is the most ASIV line, But it could very easily be.

A house easily easily. These women are shitting all over the place on luxury vacations. Trusts, it could be anything. So Benson thinks the pert probably filled that with rubbing alcohol and that was used for like the douche, and

Well, it's to set up their perception of Rebecca that she's just like, you know, opening up for all these for Alex con Yeah, that she that she's too trusting, too into them or whatnot.

Too willing to do anything to help. Yeah. So then Kyle starts telling them the story about this crackhead. They say crackhead in this episode a thousand times. I'm not using that word. I'm like repeating what's being said in the episode. I don't know. I feel like it seems insensitive, but I yeah, all the there's so many bad words where it's like, can they just mean something different so

Which is something I learned recently that like getting into shelters and all the rules and all of that is actually very hard. Yeah, and that a lot of people that are on house preferred to be on the streets then within the shelters because people steal from them.

Yeah, there's a lot of crime.

Sometimes you have to pay for a bed to get in there.

Really.

Yeah, there's just like it's just not as I mean, it's like most things when people are dismissive of people's struggles and it's like, why don't you just go do that and it's like yeah, actually it's really hard to do that, or yeah, yeah, yeah, it's hard to follow these rules, or you can't be gay if it's in

Yeah, because at the same time, without rules, you know, isn't she gonna like just run them up?

Like I just think it makes people it's like easier than for people to blame these people for individual flaws and like see it as a system. Because even when you talk about women, it's like why didn't you leave you go to a shelter, And it's like because you have to be in by nine o'clock and I work a night job, and I don't like whatever it is totally.

I just I only learned.

That recently about the homeless shelters, that they're actually like not as simple. I mean the Pursuit of Happiness kind of cover like showed that a little bit.

Oh, I never remember saw that movie with Will Smith. No, I didn't like the way that happiness was spelled in the title, and I wouldn't see it. I knew it well. Also, Curly Sue, remember her little ring gets stolen?

You know?

Yeah, Okay, it always goes back to Curly Sue always.

I love Little Curly. This is not the first time I've brought up Curly Sue on the top. There's no fucking way, all right, I interrupted again in a weird stone moment. I don't know what's happening to me talk about.

I think it's very appropriate for this very special four twenty episode.

I also love.

The name Rudy. Rudy. We have a friend who has a little girl named Rudy. It's a cute ass name. So at the Saint Ann's Homeless Shelter, Benson and Stabler are there kind of helping their their bff, Sister Peg. Stabler's like moving a huge pot or something, and he's like, oh, what did you get tired of handing out condoms to the hookers? And it's like stay, but why is everyone being so rude to people who help people in this episode?

But this is also like when it's like aren't you detectives?

Can't you tell this dude is high and not?

It like not smart enough to start like rubbing alcohol, clipping nail Like I just so sometimes I'm like, how did you become detectives?

Yeah? You know this guy, Yeah, this guy did not do all this like wrap the crime scene. This guy does not think he's smarter than the cops. You know what I mean, Like, while that Huang gave you, it ain't Rudy, like love Rudy. I want Rudy to get back on his feet. It's not Rudy. Rudy's not the one not to get I feel like that gives away for people that don't even watch the episode. But there's only a few of you. So Benson walks into the fish bowl as Lisa calls it and says, she's like,

Which is so circumstantial, like you can't fucking use that core.

The brand of condoms is crazy circumstantial. They are sold every Dwayne read. So Stabler is now downloading Craigan in a walk and talk coming from the elevator. He's like a neighbor remembers a two thousand and three LEXUSRX parked outside of Rebecca's apartment the night of the murder. That's Vegas, same model of car, and he's like, how did the guy remember all that? And he's like, the guy's a mechanic. He talked about the car like it was Paris Hilton.

I bet no one fucking thought that she would still be relevant to this day and here she is.

Yeah, well, you know what, she had a dip in relevance. I would say she had a dip and she's back no up, just to us.

But she was DJing the world selling products in Tokyo, fucking twenty five perfumes making bill, you know what I mean.

She's making so much money and she's successful. She's an entrepreneur, she has an entrepreneurial spirit. I'm just saying she wasn't like the blog fodder like I when I was working in two thousand and four, two thousand and five, two thousand and six. I mean, I was on Perez Hilton. I was on fucking de listed every day reading everything about this woman. And I'm saying, like, in the last decade that's waned a little bit. But now she's kind of back in with her mom's on the Housewives, she

And her documentary, I think, and.

That document I think it's got a lot of yes see, a different side. I still have to watch it, but yes. So this same guy, this witness said he saw a man in a black coat and a red scarf putting a big bundle in the back of the car. And the witness said it looked like, quote, a big ass bag of crap. And then Cragan goes, did this poet make a positive ID and I just I like the dialogue there and they say, you know, they're like, Vega has been clean since eighty eight, do you really think

Well, I know people were mad at her because she was playing someone. She was playing Nina Simone, and people were like really mad because they had to color her darker.

You know what I mean, Oh, because she's light. She's like, yeah, she was in the TV show Six Degrees. I guess. I like, honestly, this is a blind spot actor for me. I remember her from Center Stage. I do remember that. That's one of her first moviesanter Exic, Right, yes, I think so, I'm and the rest of her the rest of her IMDb is just really not my stuff, Like it's just not stuff I've watched. But yeah, my Avatar

So in post production is Avatar, The Way of the Water, Avatar three, four and five, and then also in post production is Guardians of the Galaxy Volume three, and an untitled Star Trek is in pre production. Truly could quit working right now, never have to lift a finger the rest of her life.

Crazy, Oh my god.

Yeah, I've never seen so many post production credits like or pre production credit, like so many things in the works.

Did you see the Jamie Lee Curtis quote recently where she they were like, would you do Marvel or Superhero? She's like, I mean sure, but I'm scared they would just have me in a warehouse covered in dots, acting in a green screen.

And I just thought that was funny. I did tell them it's amazing. Oh my god. Okay, so you've probably seen it. It went viral, but it was so funny. She had like she had Leah Michelle, a hated person on her podcast, and she goes and.

With James Groff he was there too. Oh yeah, three of them, and did.

You guys win any Tony's And she goes, we won eight Tony Awards and Jamielle Curtis goes, but you didn't, Leah. And it's one of the funniest things.

Well, because Shade, I'm wondering if it's like, you know, joyful Shade, or if it's like, oh, we worked on Scream Queens and you're a dumb bitch, and I want to make sure you know it, Like that's my curiosity.

I would love to know. It'll be the first thing I ask when I meet Jamie Lee Curtis one day.

So people in the Housewives does make her more attainable. We just have to go to a child hospital charity event. Let's just get a table at an event. We'll find her. Yeah, we'll get to her. Lindsay Lohan really loves her. I think Jamie Lee Curtis is like a beloved figure.

And oh yeah, she's married to Christopher Guest, who's one of my favorite people of all time. I did know that they were married. That's fun, crazy, right, power couple. I don't think people knew that.

You really, I can't.

Believe she's never been in any of his movies. I think she'd be fun and like in like those poes that don't want to work to imprav movies. Yeah, that's true.

Maybe they okay to keep their marriage fresh and not go to work together.

Yeah, another huge aside for me and Lisa Back.

I know, but I'm happy to know about this Christopher Guest, I know this Iss mcdorman's married to one of the Cohen brothers.

Yeah, I like too. I like these but that makes it like, I mean, that's not crazy because you see her in all of their movies. You know what I mean, Like you're kind of like, ah, she got to marry one of them, you know. So Zoe Saldana is playing his daughter and they're doing a very fast walk and talk with her and she's like, I don't know where he is, but I know he didn't kill anyone. And they're like, okay, well, then why did she run? And

I can say I can always sense like a rose action. I feel like roses. Oh really, I'm kind of and Lily's.

Do you have a very distinct But I would not know sandalwood and Bergamont not me.

But you know, yeah, and then I can smell vanilla.

Yeah, the food ones so they spot a bus stop near whatever.

Have the sprays from the drug stores that like smelled like cotton candy or I had a gummy bear one.

I had a cotton candy hair hair spray that I used to use when I smoked when I was like a teen, not like a teen, but like in my late twenteens and early twenties, I would spray to my hair because my hair soaks up so much smell that I didn't want my mom to like smell cigarettes on me. And I always had like cotton candy hair perfume or whatever. Yeah, so funny. We were just a bunch of little sweet sugar babies. Okay, So they spot on bus stop nearby. They go talk to the driver, who tells them that

It's the s fail.

It's like silly, and it's like trying to I think they're trying to do a bunch of moments where like Benson is smarter than Stabler because she's a woman, Like the nail polish, the flower perfume stuff like, it's like women have a lot more observant powers than men do in a lot of ways. You know, my husband notices fucking nothing, you know. So I think they're trying to make that point. I guess. Anyway, they're like, he's at

But if he's so smart, why would he repeat all those patterns? Like he's smart enough to set all that up, but he would do it the exact, same, exact.

Way, And Vega says that he goes, I've spent the last twenty years studying crime when I have covered my tracks better, Like it's true if he would have wanted to kill someone, he'd be like, the first thing he would have said is I'm going to change my mom I'm going to shoot them. I'm going to stab them, like I'm gonna not do the same exact thing I did to this woman, you know, years ago. But he's like, well, you tried to cover your tracks, and he I mean he did the person did so. So he's like, what

Yeah, But if someone was like, I'm going to go right at a cabin for three days, Like I don't know if I would be suspicious if I didn't.

Hear from them for three days. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, anyway, it's just something that popped into my head. So at the precinct, Stabler says that Vega's lying because no one at the Lydio wrote hotel remembers him but or Rudy. But it's like, first of all, he dropped off Rudy,

I didn't clock it, but it made me smile as soon as you said it.

Yeah, it was like a little It was very fall two thousand and four. I can tell remember when she told us that her outfits were always bad, and then they tried to make her a little bit hipper I can tell this is them trying to go into the like the away from like the just gray skirt suit look. And anyway, she immediately starts showing photos of Joanna's neck versus Rebecca's neck. They look the same. Then she shows

And so my brain as you were talking went to Making of a Murderer, you know, like it's kind of connected in a way. And then it reminded me that in Edinburgh this past year there's a Making of a Murderer musical.

The musical. Oh my god, Wow, that is fun. I would love to see that. So they're begging Rudy. They're like, you gotta think we need to know the time he dropped you off. Rudy does not remember, but he does remember that it stopped raining on their way over there, so okay, they check the Weather service. The rain stopped at nine twenty two, but the witness puts the Lexus at the house at eleven thirty, so he must have gone back to Killer, So go talk to this witness

Another little dork helper. So it's been other dork helpers before too. There's like a Church episode where that's coming to mind. Yes, so, and I'm sir Kile wanted a fuck Rebecca too, I mean, yeah, that was it, like fucking of course.

So they go to his place and he's gone. There are tons of picks of Vega and Rebecca together, so he was obviously stalking Vega and or Rebecca, and he must have grabbed the condoms when he was at Vega's house for drinks one of these times, because he goes there all the time. Then Zoey sell Donnah shows up at the precinct and she's like, please help my dad, and Craigan's like, I really can't talk to you, ma'am, like you're suing me, so good day. And then she's like, no, wait, look,

You're one hundred percent right, But maybe he would be okay not doing the plan if she had sex with him, Like I don't, I don't really know, but he gdly he planned for the rejection.

Yes, yeah, the.

Car if he went and killed her that night and then he runted the car the next day because she was she could have been dead in her apartment for a while. Obviously no one was looking for her for some reason. So like it's just weird. Yeah, Like I don't know, that doesn't really click for me. This guy over there to kill her. It wasn't like, well we you know, she didn't want this nerd dick. So Cragan is trying to talk Vega off the ledge, like come on,

Do you think boom boom boom dead is March or what?

I don't know. We'll see if it resonates let us know in the comments.

Enjoy our commercials and we'll be back.

Okay, welcome back.

So this is going to be a non traditional true crime portion of our podcast. We really wanted to do this episode, and the crimes that the wiki gives that sometimes we use as a reference is fucking wrong, and I'm pissed.

No I'm not.

We'll learn some fun, interesting things, but I went on some tangents and we're just gonna go with the flow. First of all, the wiki suggested Frank Abagnel who is What is Catch Me If you Can? Is based on what does that have to do with this episode?

What?

No one is pretending to be a pilot. No one's running around with Tom Hanks like nothing makes sense. There's no financial crimes, there's no forgery. I'm pissed. So I did no research. Go watch Catch Me if you Can if you want to know about this guy. So the next case that the wiki suggests is Kevin Tanell. And this is interesting because I think it's just like under the influence murder.

Can you change what happens? What punishment's fair? Ya Yadam? So this happened.

The Kevin tunnel case started in the last they have nineteen eighty one. It was New Year's Eve and Kevin is underage and he got he was seventeen, and so he took his older brother's ID and he was just planning to drive to the market near his house in Fairfax, Virginia and score a couple of bottles of champagne okay for New Year's doesn't seem too crazy. And then he went out partying for the night and decided to drive home.

That depends on how big the glasses are. I don't know. Yeah, that's almost a bottle of champagne, but you don't with champagne, you don't really drink as much as a wine glass. But then when you're young, you drink crazy. So who knows, Like, is that four or five solo cups of champagne? Like, you know, it's it really could be, but it's probably not a great number. Four or five of any drink is probably not a great number to drive on. But yeah, you're right, you're right. I don't know why.

I'm fine.

But also small town drunk driving is like scary because I think it's just kind of expected. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So his friends did try to stop him, but like anyone that's dronk, he insisted, like, oh, nothing ever bad happens to me.

And that's quoted in the La Times famous last words, Jesus, Yeah, something did happen.

He had a giant like gray Dodge and it rounded a blind curve and it swerved across the double yellow lines and into a compact Volkswagen car which was being driven by Susan Marie Herzog.

Now she died.

Instantly, which is good because the impact fractured her skull, broke her neck, both of her arms, both of her legs.

Like she was fully kind of broken. So in like a sad way, it's good that she died instantly. Seemed like the injuries were a lot and tunnel. He walked away with just a bump on his head and a few cuts. So he pled guilty in a Virginia juvenile court to d WI manslaughter and had to publicly confess his crimes, and he cried and was very emotional on the stand. He was not old, Oh okay, yeah, which in some places I think you would be charged as

We never really know. He was not charged for murder, but that's obviously all people look at him like, you can't really get away from that. Now, this is kind

Wow.

It's kind of like a sick call.

It's like the Seinfelds that come where it's like, oh, you can't pay your fines, so then you get a butler, Like it is like such a weird punishment at the court.

I've seen this in something else. I've seen it in something else. It was like in the magazine covered there was Yeah, this was yeah, just but just this idea of doing something every week that people are like, you don't need the money, and it's like, I want him to think about my daughter every week when he writes that check. I've seen that play out like on a TV show somewhere. So probably based on this, yeah, yeah, for sure.

So after six years of writing the checks, he said that it hurt too much to continue, and so then he decided to send them twelve years of checks at once, and they go, nah, bitch, that's not the point.

The point you will never forget you killed her daughter.

And it only adds up to nine hundred and thirty six dollars total, but that wasn't the point of this. He multiple times did stop or like didn't have time or were just too upset, and the parents took him to court multiple times on principle. So and when he was twenty six, he was found in contempt of court and their persistence cost them a lot of money. Like they spent thousands in legal fees to force Tunnels to send the checks weekly.

So it was not about the money at all. You know, we've put that together.

Yeah, the Herzog said they were not at all touched by Tunnel's tears on the stand or whatever pain writing the checks has caused him. People judge them and are like he was seventeen, but they don't care, and it's about vengeance and they don't care.

Wow.

He then, part of his punishment, spent a year speaking to groups about the evils of drunk driving, and then he continued to speak to groups for the next six years. And then he became like the most famous adolescent drunk driver in the land. I don't know if that's what you really want to be known for, but he did become a very famous drunk driver. And well, and then there's like a little twist in the writing of the article, and they're like, actually, the most famous repentant drunk driver.

In nineteen eighty seven.

It was a crash in Florida that crushed her legs and left her with a permanent limp. So they have no sympathy for drunk drivers. Gosh, yeah, they don't give a fuck. Patricia Herzog became the chairman chairwoman of Mad's you know Mother's agoin drunk Drivings Virginia chapter and then the dad is an administrator of the National Organization's Eastern region.

Wow.

So for some reason, that's what the fan wiki thinks this episode is based.

Which is I mean a stretch. I'm glad you told us about it, like I ever heard the story, but like, yeah, it's kind of stressed. That's interesting. Yeah, today is just more story tanging.

So then I was thinking kind of for the Christmas Catholic abuse episode, like maybe I can compile some things or find things that didn't inspire the episode but are connected. So I was looking for like former professors, crime stories, like rehabilitation whatever. I found one juicy, juicy story and we're going to.

Go through it.

But I also just found some professors I can highlight, and there's a few out there. But Jason sol He was once a felon and now a Minnesota criminal justice professor at Hamlin University in Saint Paul. He believes that policing in and of itself is bad for our health and the main fucked up problem of the world.

He grew up in Chicago. He was young during the War on Drugs, He.

Got involved in gangs, he got shot, he got arrested, got sent to jail, got out, and got a PhD. His focus is to have students imagine what it feels like to like.

So his story is basically, he.

Got a gun pulled on him, and then he got a gun to protect himself, and then he got caught with that gun, and at nineteen years of age, he got sent away and now is a felon forever, and your whole world shrinks when you're a felon. And now he's forty three, is a college professor, but he still lives in the shadow of a criminal record that's almost two decades long. And even though his troubles with the law long passed. In Minnesota, they don't really make it

Wow.

But then I read a bunch of comments, and some people don't love him being a professor. Was The comments were that he's too indoctrinating, and it's stuff and he doesn't really teach and he just wants his story. But it could also be people that I don't know. Yeah, controversial. Jose Boo is another man who went from sitting in a prison cell to standing in front of a classroom. Jose served twelve years in Massachusetts for drug trafficking, and while serving his time, he got an English degree from

Now he's in his forties.

He was an instructor at Holyoak Community College for a long time and now he works at Holyoak Public Schools. And I didn't know this at all, But Bill Clinton signed a crime bill. I didn't know about that. So Bill Clinton signed a crime bill that we all know about, but I didn't know this part that it made people in prison ineligible for pelgramts and so by cutting funding the laws squatched a ton of existing college prison programs.

Oh yeah, so fucked up. I've heard about this crime bill. People really hate him for it, and I know he took away a lot of like free lunch programs and a lot of stuff.

But this sucks.

Yeah, it really fucking sucks.

And Jose's like, I wasn't a bad kid. I just wanted to smoke weed with my friends. I didn't go to school, so then I dropped out in tenth grade, and then you know, shoplifting turned into drug trafficking, and then he was spent twelve years in federal lockup, and he remembers thinking, you're not going to do this to me. I'm not going to let you turn me into an animal.

That's amazing.

It is amazing.

And so I found a couple other stories, someone in New York who's a professor, and yeah, there are people that are able to do it. It just sucks that our system makes it super hard. But when you have people that are stabler like that don't believe that you can change. It's fucked. But so many of these people, it's like they're products of their upbringing in there like environment, and it does seem fucked to be seventeen and put away for like, you know, twelve years. But yeah, also

So this guy's name is Gary Maynard.

He is a criminology professor who specializes in deviancy and he taught in a lot of different places. He was like an adjunct professor. And we'll learn more about it as I go on. But you being an adjunct and I guess sucks.

Yeah. I don't think you get like any benefits. Like my mom is an adjunct professor at Columbia. She doesn't do anything at Columbia. She just like they have her on their list, like they could bring her in if they wanted to my brother in law.

Is he likes it, but it's not as full time gig, Like he just enjoys teaching and the class he does it to Paul, Yeah, shout out. But so anyway, So he taught at Santa Clara, Chapman and Sonoma State University.

We know a bunch of people who went to Chapman, do we really? Yeah? Who? Emily Tayler's husband and Haynah Einbinder went there, and I feel like someone else, but yeah, oh yeah, because they're both California kids. Yeah, CALLI kids.

So he drove out of the Lumberjacks restaurant parking lot on Tuesday in August of twenty twenty one, and he drove past the town and then left the small city of Susanville in the northeastern corner of California, according to the New York Times, and then he headed up a steep highway into the Sierra Nevada, where he set the

Okay, so not good.

One student said he appeared vaguely psychotic in her evaluation at the end of class and that he mostly ranted about celebrities and tech company founders. Oh, he's a classic case. He just straight up lost it during the pandemic. I think he suffered through mental illness and like some fucked up shit, and then the pandemic truly broke him.

He would teach on Zoom in a dark.

Bedroom and revealed he had a sick father, he had a lawsuit against him from a former landlord. He was struggling with his mental health. He was very open with that. He ended up living in his car, and according to former roommate turned lover Kate, who did not want to use her last name at all, said that he would beat the shit out of his room with a hammer and there were dimples in the floor and gashes in the walls and he was just like kind of violent and unhinged, but she loved him.

Now.

I don't know if it was loved, but they were fucking. I think they were both lonely and fucking during the pandemic. But they were roommates and she owned this house and she was doing well, and it started as a friendship and then I don't know, shit happened. So she couldn't understand how he had a PhD and three master's degrees but then would be in and out of homelessness and sleep in offices and shower at the university jym locker room.

So it didn't really make sense to her.

So then during the pandemic, he started sending unhinged rantings and YouTube video links to his students, who then notified the school that he seemed not well, and then his contract was not renewed. It wasn't just the pandemic that caused his life to become hard. He had a hard upbringing in Ohio, where he said to New York Magazine that he grew up in the midst of a rampant, soulless abuse and was molested by two different people, and learning in school acted as a reprieve from the empty,

I don't know, sure smart, he's just like was not getting the help he needed.

Correct, Yeah, but he also committed this is like twisted. So basically his car was found near another fire. There was like the Dixie Blaze. Do you remember this? Yeah, it was like the biggest fire. So that kind of like he was starting fires around this Dixie Blaze. So the Dixie Blaze was like stuper and that's why that and because he's a criminology professor, like that's why this became such a big news story, like the interests behind it all. But this Dixie fire, why did you call

There's not anything really dixieish about California, but I don't know.

No, So the Dixie Blaze was like it's the second biggest fire in California's history, and it burnt over a million acres and it cost over five hundred four already million dollars in government like.

Costs to put down, Like, so it was a big fire.

So his car was found near this fire, and then later they found the same car tracks near this other fire.

So they assumed it was this guy.

So Verizon, which isn't this illegal, but sent coordinates for their phone's location every fifteen minutes to the agents so they could track his movements. The investigators tracked Maynard's movements using other stuff too, like his food stamp transactions, phone records, and they put a device. They attached a device to his car in the Lumberjacks parking lot. And I just want to eat at Lumberjacks.

I want a fucking Mountain Diner pancake meal right now. Oh and that there was like a full like TV moment of like someone walking out, like looking both ways and then sticking a little tracker underneath his car.

Interesting, it is very interesting. So local police worked with them. So the local police pulled him over for a traffic violation, and then a forest service agent sneaked up and stuck an electronic beacon under his car. Oh okay, so very TV like you said. So they followed him into the lastin National Forest where he set three additional fires off

So he did love trees.

He had like a love affair of trees, but then did burn that.

I think he truly needed help.

Yeah, because like you're saying, it's like wrong that they're being burned because the people, and then you're burning them. It's yeah, not making a ton of sense. Yeah. Yeah.

So when he was arrested and brought in on August, Heaven prosecutors alleged that he was super violent, kicking his cell door shouting at a sheriff deputy, I'm going to kill you, you fucking pig, and then I just wanted to say.

That, But Maynard said, I never said kill.

I just said I would sue them, So that's what, Okay, he just but not denying that he called them pigs, which is fun. Whatever you say, Gary, whatever you say. He says that he is not dumb or a criminal, and definitely not dumb enough to start a fire where his car was stuck, because when his car was first found at this Dixie fire, it was like wedged, and so he was just like, why would I start fires where my car was wedged?

And it's like, I don't know. You also are in love with the trees. Now what's interesting? So this giant Dixie fire was accidentally started by PG and E, which is the company from Aaron Brockovich. With all the water poisoning, Yeah, why is PG and he still in business?

I think that's like big We're fucking I think that's California's like, that's like con d Man. That's like a big ass company that like controls our power grid.

They started the biggest fire ever.

It was. It's like what the fuck is this company up to?

But yeah, like I said, so the like because the fire was so big and his like job as a criminology professor. The New York Times put it on the front page and the headline was expert on criminal minds is accused of wildlife arson.

Spree so fun.

He rejects any psychological interpretation of his interests in social deviance. He also self diagnosed himself with aspergers, but says that non Asperger. People live in a world dumbed down, with dumb down delusions and lies covered in formal conventions where they don't speak their mind. And he said that to New York magazine Unhinged. That's kind of a smart point.

Even though Maynard said he.

Was poor, but he was happy he was free, and he believes he is innocent of any crime. He stands by that he loves trees and is one with the trees and would never hurt the trees. As of an article from July twenty twenty two, right very current, he has been sitting in jail as he awaits trial, and he has pleaded not guilty and that he has been miscast.

And when arsen is for.

Insurance money or revenge, we can recognize a criminal impulse. But when a fire is set just like to nature, just to watch the world burn, that's, in quotes, a

And he's from the inside.

Okay, yeah, and then but nine out of ten fires are straight up accidents. But from human activity, and then yeah, like cigarettes and like campfires and yeah so and then ten percent are like true. Arson.

Arson and Maynard's final quote in New York Magazine profile is I wish the trees were on the jury because they would equit me. Now did they find I wondered, did they find any like accelerant or like anything?

Did he just like go and drop a match? I mean, did they find anything that he used to like set the fires, because.

Like, so fuck, I'm sure they did. I didn't care, but I'm sure.

No, no, no, I'm not trying to say like you didn't find something. I'm just kind of like, you know, I guess he can argue in court wrong place, wrong time a bunch of times or not really because like they had to have found what he'd used. I feel bad. This man needs to go. He needs to plead not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect. So yeah, the fires he's been charged with is the Cascade fire, which just reminds me of every time we okay, we can't sing, but do you know that song?

Right?

Yeah, but I think that that singer's name is Cascata.

Shut up. And then so that was July twentieth.

July twenty first was the Everett fire, and then August seventh was this ranch fire, and then the Conrad fire was August seventh.

Let's see how he did it.

My confusion is, I wonder why none of the resources I found said how he started the fire.

Do you think it's to not give people ideas or something?

Maybe, yeah, because it's like he set like successful fires, right, there must have been some kind of like accelerate or maybe not. I don't know.

Yeah, but there's one super super famous forensic files where like after this guy was arrested, fires went down from like one hundred to three a year, Like he was legit setting hundreds of fires a year and he was like part of the fire department. But arsenists, like they don't they don't get caught so easy. Like it seems like for every three someone gets caught with they've set

Yeah, and I hope they fucking rotten jail for a little bit.

Yeah, so weird.

That's another thing that's like what I've was talking about earlier in the episode, where it's like people cling to these things that are not even traditions, Like why is everyone doing gender reveals? Where did that come from? And why are people so glued to it? It's not real.

It's not definitely tied to social media. I mean, it's like another party people want to have around having a kid. Like it's social media is showing off like different creative ways you can do something. It's TikTok, you know, like that's it. I mean this didn't exist like five years, like ten years ago. There we're like not gender reveal parties.

I know.

It's just weird that we just accept it.

I always say I think about bachelorette parties too, where it's like it used to be like oh, one fun night out, and now it's like we're going to Brazil get a matching hat. Okay, listen, we're going to our interview. We could talk forever that information.

Liza.

I'm glad you got to interview. I mean I appreciate you researching like five cases, so thank you. Well, I had to mismatch something.

It would be weird if I just talked about one teen drunk driver, like I just I don't understand how that even got into the wiki. But I'm glad I learned about Gary Maynard because this is also a case that we could all follow it together since the trial has not even happened, and we'll see what happens to him.

But but he has a public defender.

He's poor, Yeah, so I don't know if he's gonna even be able to like have a great defense of like this man.

Let him get on the stand and he goes. I love the trees. The trees are with me. I mean, how are we not doing mental disease or defect? Like you know what I mean?

And along's in an institute not in approval like and God from starting fires is bad And obviously he has done violence before in the past, but no one physically was harmed, and so I don't feel that bad saying that he deserves some sort of support, right, But the New York Magazine profile was very very good if you want like an in depth thing, and there's more information from Kate and about all of his weird behaviors.

Awesome, Well, thank you, Stay tuned everyone, We'll be back with a great interview. This week's guest is a comedian, an actor, a writer who many of you have seen in a slew of Fantastic Disney live action movies in the nineties, Operation Dumbo, Drop that Darn Cat. Maybe you've heard of a little movie called Cool Runnings. And you may also recognize him as the voice of Bernie in Shark Tale. But today you know him as Rudy lem Key. Guys, check out our really amazing talk with Dougie Doug.

We're so excited.

I'm actually at a festival in Montreal right now, and at breakfast I told everyone we were interviewing you, and they got jealous and excited.

The Canadians, come on.

They were pumped.

That's great.

Are you in New York right now?

I am, yes, And.

You've lived there your whole life?

Well, you know, I lived other places, but I'm born and raised in New York.

Yes.

So was SVU a big deal since you were a New York guy to get into the Dick Wolf universe?

Oh my god, yes, because you know, as a New York actor, the whole idea is.

To get in the Dick universe.

And hopefully you can stay in the Dick Wolves universe, but as long as you can so. But that was during a period where it was just kind of like, you know, had a lot of downtime, and I was like, man, I'd like to work locally because you know, I had small children and so forth. So it was perfect too, and that began obviously a lot of different wolf stuff.

Absolutely, yeah, he's got a lot of things going on. So it's like very much. But so you got you, we saw like doing some research on you that you got started like doing stand up. Yes at seventeen, Yes, that's exacting. We're both stand ups.

Oh cool.

Yeah, And I was being at the Apollo as a teen, ticnic, treacherous.

You said, yes, well, you know there's certain you know, like every room has its tricks, as you as I'm sure you all know it's.

Dudes, and don't you know. And so there's a.

Particular you know ethic associating with the Apollo.

Has to do it.

Hit them hard, hit them fast, or you will go down the dark path of humiliation. Wow.

As a New York person, you know, usually everyone it's always the negatives of like, well this has changed, and that's changed and it used to be like this, and I liked it better there. What are things that you that have changed that you're like, I like this, this is nice.

Well, you know, neighborhoods that used to be completely filled with the destruction and criminality only have less of it. And yeah, so New York is scrubbed up. Well, let's just face it compared to the eighties. Yeah, so I welcome even you know some of the things that people complain about that has come as a result of cleaning it up. I'm like, just clean it up, please, And so I'm happy about that.

And was it cool to shoot in New York, like on the streets and stuff?

They rested? Yeah? Was that fun?

Yeah? They I think they arrested me in a homeless shelter.

Yeah, in this episode, but that is your other, your other episode where you're driving Richard kind around. Oh yeah, you got you're you're on the streets and that one.

That's true.

Yeah, And we and we shot at the airport. I had to pick them up from the airport as an attach.

That was cool. I didn't even know people were allowed to do that in New York.

I didn't either.

Yeah, it's well, that's a Dick wolf Power. I guess he's like Oports. So I was like, wow, this is cool. And so yeah, it's always great shooting on the streets of New York, you know, because people.

Are nonplussed or or they're you know.

They're really like, you know, uh in your face either or like.

And how was that interrogation scene intense?

The thing the scene I liked the most about the interrogation scene was cool because because I.

See it was in the scene. I see it was just kind of.

Like in between takes, was just like talking about in jail and.

You know, see in jail culture.

He's like I guess he's like a guru of the underground or some kind. So he was telling us about the nuances of jail culture and the dudes and don't and I said wow, and then they were like okay.

Actually they started grilling.

So it was really fascinating, you know, being in a scene with him.

Yeah, I see it had an amazing podcast for a while, and he was very in He is a pursuer of knowledge, like he really does, like want to know about news and like he I remember he had an author on who had written all these best selling books from prison and like, so, I think he definitely tries to like know about that culture and like you know, amplify those voices and stuff. But he's he's definitely a smart dude.

He is brilliant guy.

Yeah, one day we'll meet him.

How did you get into character? I mean it's like kind of a tough role to play someone kind of shaken about and being bullied.

You know, I'm accustomed to that.

My whole childhood had information that I could draw from.

Growing up in New York being bullied. Yes, that was.

Like totally Uh, I guess that that was my entire adolescent shaken up.

Yes, that was it.

Yeah. I really like the way you played this character though, because you could tell the guys like down On is lucky struggling with addiction. But you're not playing it like crazy, Like you're not you're not Overwrow, You're not like scratching and going nuts, you know, like you're just kind of like, you know, you were like I remember when I was watching it, I was like, wait, did this guy have anything to do with it? But I feel bad for him, you know, you're really kind of Yeah, I.

Was trying to mask symptoms, which is I think is what people really do as opposed to expose it. All right, It's kind of like acting from the inside out. You know, when people are gesticulating, they are acting from the outside in. So it's more about what's going on inside.

And what your behavior su yest.

So yeah, I hate to be you know, I don't want to be too intellectual about it, but you.

Know what I mean, or too processing.

That makes a lot of sense.

And what I love about SVU is like it is cop Ganda at a certain degree, but then they do show that cops do bad things. And I feel like that scene was very much like, yeah, this shit happens, and it's messed up that they are putting like trying to pin you on a crime that you didn't do, and they didn't care that if you did or didn't do it.

You know.

Yeah, I said a lot small scene but said so much.

Yeah. I think all the episodes that I've done in this particular universe, I'm feel grateful to have been a part of because they did they were nuanced portrayals and new and nuanced stories.

They weren't just sort of like you know, that shitty Blue Blood.

So I'm sorry, it's like, you know, like.

Oh my my people, we need so much help help us.

Do you remember anything like about working with like Marisco or christ.

Is unforgettable? Uh.

She is probably one of the most spiritually attractive women that I've ever met in my life outside.

Of my wife.

And what spiritually spiritually attractive? I love definition not.

Somebody just has a vibe where it's just like, damn, she's She makes me want to walk a lady across the street or some ship.

I want to be decent, a.

Profound decency that the woman and I actually actually in that in the scene where we were, uh where where I get where I get assaulted or whatever or caught by the police, She's the one who wrestles me to the ground, And that was very hard to me to like play like.

I was disturbed by this. I was like, We're gonna have to do another take because I don't think that was gonna take en up. Please. But yeah, I enjoyed working with her, to say the least. But uh yeah, Chris was good too. He was good too.

That's actually how most of these go people are, Like Marishka light of my life.

The most gorgeous in and out funny the set is hers.

He was stretching in the corner exactly, professional, great actor doing deep squats, like that's all we hear.

Exactly.

It doesn't move fast.

Sorry, oh no, but like it moved fast, Like how many takes did you do of the like the stunt.

Might have been too and they were like good enough, let's go.

Wow, But that makes sense, you know in our procedural drama, you know they gotta move.

Yeah, we hear it's fast.

Yeah, so it's not. You know, there's a lot of frustration if you're if you're not even missed your lot, it's a lot of like you feel like your life is going to be threatened.

It's like, I'm sorry, we'll do it again. You know.

They don't have the luxury, which I understand like sitcoms or something.

We have another take, it's.

A live audience or whatever, right, right, So you guys are really into this show.

Oh yeah, yeah, that's why I was like, oh you were outside, Like we're probably watching like five six episodes at a time where we're doing full analysis, researching the crimes. Prep.

Yeah, a lot of a lot of crimes.

Full confession. My daughter who was a child at the time. I mean maybe when she's about nine or ten. She found this show and ended up being watching this show. I thought that we needed therapy seriously, and come to find out, she was really interested in the rights of people who needed to be defended, who were voiceless, and she ended up being a very very compassionate person and a crusader for rights, and she really really wanted to meet Mariska.

She was she's that's her favorite actress, by the way, So it might be one day I could arrange it.

But yeah, yeah, you got to get back on SVU. If you came back, who would you play?

I don't know.

I'd play anything on that show definitely, but would I would definitely do it simply to make Mariska say hello to my daughter.

Motivation would Yeah.

You know, it's funny we hear that a lot people are like, this show made me become a forensic scientist. This show got me into the law. Like, you know, it's interesting that you know she felt that way because the show a lot of times makes defense attorneys look really bad and makes like the prosecutors look like the heroes. And but it's like people, he's not basic. Yeah, she saw past that. She saw past that.

Yes, and also and also I think that riscus passion to defend vulnerable yes, girls and so forth is very resonant among young women. You know, yeah, like somebody needs to get in the middle of this crap, so.

She'll do it, like you know, yeah, and always always believing victims and stuff. Yeah, she's definitely. Yeah.

Are your kids interested in like acting in artistic pursuits or not at all?

Oh god, no, well my daughter, my son is definitely. So that's we're gonna we're gonna work that out of him shortly.

Now, I do have to ask, how often are people coming up to you yelling cool runnings.

Every day of my life?

What I thought?

Yes, that and an assortment of other film related quotes in that movie you know You're dead, you know, all sorts of different things, Yes, ye.

More And then is that more than cause like, so cool running is number one? That's like what people approach you for.

Yes, and one of approached me for a lot of different things, but mostly cool Runnings. Yes, definitely, that is. That's obviously enduring, you know for generally we.

Watched it in school, Yes, that was the first time I saw it. Was like in school, a.

Lot of people tell me that that and.

Wow, like it's educational viewing.

Yeah, I've heard shown in a lot of places, like it was.

A big favorite in jail. Apparently it was one of the things they could agree on.

To watch because you know, there's you know, there's a lot of people fighting over one television.

So I've heard that a lot.

You know, did you how did you make your jump from like stand up as a teen into acting? Were you always gonna did you always know you wanted to do that? Or were you like, did stand up lead to that? Or were you a theater kid? Yeah?

No, I was not as well. I didn't perform in theater, but I wouldn't call myself a theater kid.

I would uh in high school productions and stuff.

I got kicked out of the drama club.

For foolishness bad boy basically, but I but I.

But the principal of my school recognized that a pension for for being.

Comically disruptive, and he said, okay, well, he set aside assemblings for me to just have minutes basically minutes, you know, and that I started developing that by by going getting on stage during assemblies and entertaining my So he was a genius by Paul James Bonnilla.

God rest his sol That is cool.

So that's where I got my taste for the stage. But I ended up being seen at the Apollo. I did this.

They had a television show show Tomic Paulow at that time, I was on a front of pit and so I got sow by a lot of seen by a lot of people there. I did a spike saw me at the Apollo and put me in a couple of movies. And Russell Simmons at the time was doing a show that was produced after the Apollo Show, and it's called New Music Report that I wrote and hosted and so forth, so and and so most of my work that came from there, initially my acting work.

Wow. Wow, that's awesome. That's so cool that you had a principle that didn't just say like shut up, stop being a clown and like actually like fostered your soal and send your strengths you.

Know, yes, yes.

And I actually had a conversation with some of the other Christian brothers years later and they're like, he always.

Had a had a had an understanding of kids, you know, literally, you know, I'm like, yeah, that's the point when you're around kids, you should be trying to understand. So, yeah, gifted like that.

Can you tell us about In the Weeds? Writing, directing, producing in it? Tell us about it?

Oh, I'm so excited about this movie.

Myself and a good friend of mine, Clayton Alice, we uh, you know, the high of the pandemic happened and we were.

Sitting around the industry was shut.

Down, and we said, okay, you know, okay, Mickey, Okay, Judy, let's do a movie. So we got all of our various friends together, dps, lighting people, actors, actresses and so so, and we decided to just kind of like begin just shooting.

You didn't have a completed script.

We had just an outline and ifferent ideas that we wanted to work out that were resident in terms of what we were seeing in terms of people's anguish and pain and and and and separation from loved ones, etc.

Cetera. And we decided, okay, let's just start doing something. So we we we improvised.

First a couple of scenes, and then we went and scripted. So we ended up with something that spectacular.

It's called In the Weeds. And as we all you know, we're all in the weeds and after.

A list crap and uh, hopefully we're we're moving put.

Moving into it and coming out on.

The other side healed and enlightened and so forth.

And so that's really what the movie is about. Playing a father was really.

A strained from his daughter. He's an adult daughter, which I am dealing with now.

And it's I.

Don't want to I want to hear what's going on, but I don't, you know, uh, you guys this that, And of course I was I was a guy once, so I'm.

Like, this is a horror story. So it's really.

About him not being in touch with and a stranger and trying to find her and on the outs with her.

But in the sub story, it subplot is really about her and.

This romance, this young English Indian English transplant from uh in London and their love affair.

And you know, all that, all that stuff that.

That is upsetting to fathers. But eventually it all resolves itself. Somehow we figure out, you know, we learned something about something. So it's very it's very mysterious. It deals with with healing and the fact that the things that heal us right in front of us you know that we were fascinated with, like, you know, stuff that grows out of the streets and herbs and stuff.

Like that, and you know, so it's really about trying to heal ourselves. That's that's what it is.

That's awesome. And where can people watch it?

Right now?

We're we're placing the film in under festival consideration, so we should hear about where it will be in.

Oh, amazing, amazing, amazing.

Yeah, and what about We're also curious to know about your writing career books? Yeah, well, the Fall of nineteen eighty seven, the year I was born, No big deal.

Oh my god, that's sary that I am an a ar P member.

So my parents get air P and I read it and I like it. It's a pretty good magazine.

Fantastic the magazine.

They wait to have it waiting for me when I go visit, and I like it. Liam Neeson was on the cover.

They have great people, great great old people.

Yeah. But yeah, tell us about your book.

How is it different than writing and like doing movies and TV.

It seems kind of like a nightmare writing a book. It seems hard.

It's actually it's actually really my chosen profession.

You know, I started usually stand up you're writing, but then you know, I segued into a writer, you know, being a head writer of a sketch show called New Musical. Like I said, there was produced vir systemis. I've always been writing. But then my goal is to is to continue to write books, which I love the most because it's isolated activity and I'm hard to get.

Along with, I guess and uh so. And also I'm like I said, when we get older, you get time of being engaged all the time. You know, this is something I can do and I can walk in the park and I can do this.

I don't have to be like, you know, collaborating all the time. So it's a nice meditative thing. It's kind of it's either write books.

Or go to the laundry man, you know, one of these. So yeah, I love it. The book is great.

The book is really a sort of an analysis of the period of the late eighties in brook In Bedsti.

Brooklyn, where I grew up.

You know, all of the greatest people on earth are

Of such a thing. It's a great book, if I say so myself.

Yeah, and then you're currently you're currently working on another one.

Yes, this one is more I guess you could say, a more commercial book, so to speak. This one is a is the behind the scenes of the greatest Bops led movie full Time.

Yeah.

So so I'm having a lot of fun, right because it's a lot of memories about what happened, uh when that's said and John Candy of course Britain and.

Uh, you know, so it's a great it's nice to go down memory lane.

I think people are really really gonna enjoy this this book. It's it's this one is a lot of fun.

While filming that movie, did you guys feel it was going to be a hit.

I didn't know or feel that, but you know, John was telling us, Oh yeah, youse.

These guys don't understand. I'm from Canada. This is big.

I was there when this happened, and I actually was like, you know, is he psychic or something?

Like what why is he so passionate about I was.

I had I had a told me with you at the time that was on it. It was it was a mid season replacement the ABC.

It was called Where I Lived.

So I had all my money on that, thinking, yeah, when this when Mike told him Joe comes out, it's gonna be I'm going to be the best, biggest of the book.

So I was like, okay, I'll also do the Bobs that movie too. I was like, oh, man, like the thing I guess so no, I did not.

No, that's so funny. And then yeah, cut to the rest of your life. Bob Slut references every day.

I can't wait for this book. All the secrets.

Yeah, there are a lot of them, a lot of them. I'm leaving a little nervous about some of the stories. I actually actually am.

Nervous about how I describe the other guys who played in the bobser because it's really just a joke.

But I but my wife was like, I don't know about this because let me let me, let me, let me try to test it out on me. I say, the guys in the box.

Of the movie are like prototypical man, but different slices of man. Like you know, I said that Roald Lewis, who played Junior, it is like one of the nicest man.

Which you'll ever meet.

He's so nice that he could actually have a relationship with a woman based solely on friendship.

This is me on the other hand, I'm very nice, but not that nice.

Like I could go out on a date with a woman and have a very wonderful, polite conversation, but at the end I would say.

Is that it? You know? That's me? So so uh uh. Malik Yova is a fantastic guy, a lot of fun. He's the kind of guy that.

Would go out with a woman, have sexual intercourse and yell out her name. Leon on the other hand, also fun with women, but he'd have sexual incourses with a woman and yell out his own name.

But on pump. So that's a little slice of you know.

I think it's appropriate.

I don't think it's that I don't think it's a crossing the line.

Okay, Okay, that's funny. It's really just these are like my brother so it's Josh.

But are you still friends?

Yes, yes, yes, yeah, I'm all of them. We were all together about a month ago. Yeah, so it's always great when we get together.

It's always Yeah, it's always weird because people like there's the bob Sled people.

Do you think I know they like trade. They probably like gave you some like basic training. Do you think you could bob sload?

I did it once. Yes, I did it.

Oh and.

It was really like it's hard to describe, but it's like from what I understand, it's like jumping out of a plane, which I've never done, but the g forces are so like there's so much so it's not like a roller coaster.

It's like jumping.

Yeah, so intent And yeah I did it once and I probably will do it again.

But yeah, I had to do it once.

Oh see yeah that's it sounds scary. It's like so fast. This was amazing. Yeah, this was an amazing chat. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.

Appreciate it. Thank you.

A legend an icon, a star. He would show up in a head game.

He is. I love when you google Dougie Dog though that it goes Dougie. Doug is not a retired rapper. He's never been a rapper. Like it's just like a full you're thinking of someone else. Dougie doug is an actor. I just love yeah that he was like, I like people that in the Pandemic too, were like, I'm going to like make something or you know, use my resources that I can. I think that in the Weeds movie that he talked about, seems we'll post a link to the trailer he sent you to a great idea.

Yeah, fucking fun cool.

I love him starting as you know, as a stand up is thrilling of forest writing. We keep talking to multifaceted people and that's really cool. Yes, yeah, I love telling people are about our game. Yes, it's like yeah, Lou Diamond Phillips like, who are you? I don't know why the people that we get on this spot as why?

But I love this episode, Like I really thought it had like a lot of very interesting themes about like can you be rehabilitated? You know, what makes one person's mistakes of the past more easy to look over than someone else's, you know, like.

Yeah, like when when he called out Cragan was like, well you were a fucking alcoholic and you changed, Like why am I not.

Getting the grace?

Yeah?

You but you know there's murder. I get it. But and if it wasn't as it just sucks.

Like I always hate when the detectives are so dead set on something, you know. But he was being set up, so it was a thriller. This was like the movie The Fugitive, you know, edge of your seat thrilling.

It was. It was exactly that I'm realizing now. It's one of like some of the episodes of the show, and some of my favorite ones are set up like movies, and this one felt like a movie me, like just a full frame job in the end, like and and like the whole time I was watching, I was like, oh yeah. I was like, this is gonna be one where he did do it and he's just denying it. And then I was like, oh no, wait, the daughter does it because she doesn't like that he's in love

No.

I knew it was that fucking dork. I knew his ass.

No, even when they were allowing that was wild. The likes detail was very good, truly, you're so right, Like the Fugitive, I didn't kill my wife, like it's the Fugitive.

The Fugitive was big in the Tragger Household.

It's big. I think I saw it with my family in the theater.

It's an important It's one of the top nineties thrillers.

Absolutely. Also for me, CeAl a Ward has always been one of the most beautiful actress who played his wife. And it was in the show's Sisters that I talk about all the time because I love and I remember just that whole movie. I was like, what is gonna happen? And I remember I couldn't believe they turned the river green in Chicago for Saint Patrick's Day. That's like where I learned about that was the Fugitive.

Oh my god, I forgot where who I was talking to, but someone was like Savannah or Charleston, some dumb city I don't even remember, but they're like, that has the best Saint Patrick's Day in the country. And I was like, excuse me, like what are you talking about, Like is

Like I've never been to Chicago for Saint Patrick's Day, but I have been to Boston and South Boston, which is like the Irish area, and it was one of the craziest things I've ever with, Like.

I had a regular day once I was waiting in line in Boston to get into a bar and someone grabbed me by the shoulders and moved me physically over twice like.

It and I stepped on a dying rat that day. It was like truly like a wild Boston night. I guess a regular Boston night. Yeah, Boston is Yeah. They are there at a party for fucking Saint Patrick's Day, for sure, but I didn't realize they would move your body. But wow, what a day.

And you know about Dave Matthew's band in the Chicago River course, of course?

Yeah, oh my god. Do you watch the show? I love that for you. Nobody should because Matt Rogers. It's funny and it's quick. It's like seven episodes and thirty minutes.

Can you imagine being on a beautiful architectural boat tour of downtown Chicago, enjoying your family vacation. Maybe you just got engaged. You're on a nice boat ride and then shit flowing down on you.

The shit of the Dave Matthews band though famous shit. So you imagine I can't. I can't I do like that.

In the movie The Breakup, Vince Vaughan's job is like tour guide Chicago, because that was a lot of day jobs for comedians.

They did tour guides, all right, right, Yeah, I.

Just wouldn't be able to wake up and go go get a trolley driving a trolley around town.

I don't think so. Yeah, I didn't realize that was his job. How do they have such a nice apartment? Is it her? She does better than him? Well, it's a fam He's not just the tour guide. It's a family business. And that's the thing.

His brother, Vincent's Inafrio is pissed at him, right because he's not working hard enough and he has to do all the books and then Vince wanas to mature and then he does the books.

Casey, I know, we probably do. I know, we promised you we were going to do like like lighter post mortems, but we just can't shut the fuck up. Anyway. This was a killer episode. I think it's like what I learned was a little bit of like, let's yeah, let's not pin people's past mistakes on them forever. People can change.

That is yeah, Fortunessociety dot org. Thank you so much, Kara, and next week we'll be doing it. Sounded like I was a morning news reporter and thanks for that for that, Kara.

Next week we'll be doing granting immunity.

Moving on up to season sixteen, episode nineteen, All Divisible. Oh as, let's say to the visibles by three, but that's not true at all.

I'm out of here. Watch the episode. Thanks for listening. Bye, my.

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As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information. Thank you so much to our producer Ksey O'Brien and to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker, Patrick Cotner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer and everybody at Exactly Right Media. Dun Dun