Counterfeit w/ Michael O'Keefe

Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on.

These are our stories done done. Hello, Hi, Hi everybody.

I'm Kara Klank, I'm Liza Traeger and this is That's Messed Up an SVU podcast. Welcome, Welcome, thank you for tuning in to our second episode of twenty twenty one. The year has already started out insane, just a full terrorist attack at our capital and people are still sending work emails.

It's pretty wild.

Someone tweeted like that's the most American thing ever where it's like, are we going to be working during the coup or.

What is happening?

Yeah, but our friend, our friend DJ was like, I love how brams are like out of respect, We're not going to be tweeting today. It's like, just don't tweet, Like you don't need to announce that Di Giorno is not gonna fucking tweet today.

Well, no, I think the best thing not the best thing, but one of the funniest things of twenty twenty was when Gushers was talking about supporting black lives matter, and they're like, we're gonna join forces with fruit by the foot and fruit roll ups to really fight injustice. But I do love gushers, that's fucking' I missed Bodega's so much. I would get the twenty five cent gushers and Scooby Doo fruit snacks on my way home from a night out.

I used to I guess this is a big difference between you and me, But I used to get a Ferrero rochet for twenty five cents, like one Ferrero rochet job.

But I like fer.

And I like gushers. They just weren't at my bodega.

Now.

One time I had a Ferrero Rochet gelato.

Oh me too, in Italy and it was mine was in Australia.

We're so cool. Oh my god, we're so international. Well we moved pretty fast from the coup.

But well, no, that was obviously a very harrow yesterday. I mean honestly, I got like nothing done. I was like glued to my phone. I felt sick. We was

Yeah, and you know, we have gotten some messages of people being like, you talk too much shit about cops, and it's like, I don't know what to tell you.

But we did see a video of them taking selfies.

With terrorists in the Capitol, So yeah, it needs to be said.

I don't think a Stabler wouldever fucking do that.

I don't think Benson would be taking selfies with a man with what was it cow husks on his head he.

Was wearing like a Viking hat like he was wearing. Yeah, I don't know what kind of horns those were. But I hope that arrests are coming for all of them because that was really.

Especially since we have like a new what is it new politicians and everyone coming in. I hope all these people get arrested, like someone with their foot on the desk of Nancy Pelosi, Like I just I'm staying at like my in law's condo, and I wouldn't put my foot on this table.

I just don't understand how they do it.

And I'm not married. It's like my sister's husband's family. I don't even know what do you call that?

Yes, it was, but that is funny because it feels like they're your in laws because they're your sister's in laws. Yeah, it is weird, and like you're close with them, close enough that they're letting you party at their condo all winter.

By partying, I'm just making green beans alone.

But yeah, you're having a really healthy new year. You're like on a regiment. You're eating well, you're working out. I'm very inspired by you. I'm just getting bigger and bigger because there's a child inside of me.

Yes, and people were so sweet and congrats on your baby. Yeah, thank you everybody. Thank you.

Of some of my friends that I know that are like, I mean, my friends like contacted me because they.

Found out on the podcast. I was like, I'm sorry you had to find out that way. It's weird.

In a pandemic, I don't know who, like who I've reached out to. I forget who I've texted. You know, it's like weird.

No, it's tough.

I am I'm I'm on a one on one fitness program with Stasia pat Well and I'm basically I'm doing ten thousand steps, no booze, no nothing. I've never eaten a green bean in my life. I'm eating four cups a day. That's where I'm at.

Four cups of green beans a day. See.

I think I would like this because I like being told what to eat, Like not in a nexium type of way, but I like being like, if you like layout, like this is what you need to eat every day, every meal for three weeks and you'll lose weight.

I'll I'm I get it. I would do that.

No, it's very Teddy melon Camp. I have to send her my steps every day. I have to send her every single thing I eat from an app. And then she like negotiates, But I also I have negotiated multi tricolored peppers into the diet. I was like, I cannot keep eating green beans. You have to give me something, so I'm getting peppers and yeah, no, it's a different way of life.

I wouldn't force this on anyone, but I'm and.

It's not exactly Teddy Melliycamp because it's not five hundred calorisage.

I'm eating fourteen hundred calories. But I just want to let everyone know. Before this, I was eating taco bell at least three times a week, pizza puffs. I'm in Chicago, I was going to Pertillo's for cheese fries, so this is definitely different. I'm eating three fourths cups of Greek yogurt a day and it is insane.

I don't know how I'm doing.

It, honestly, That's what Rosie has for breakfast every morning. It's quarters of a cup of Greek yogurt. Yeah, but she has it with honey on it.

No, I'm not allowed anyhow. You can't have that.

No money I've been I have a sugar free syrup, but it's I don't. So it's all about negotiating because I have all these things to hit. So I have to send her everything every night, and it has to be my steps. So like she basically is like night or day, snow, I don't give a shit, you better get your steps in.

So I'm in the suburbs of Chicago.

It was fully snowing, so wet, and the snow wasn't going to end till eleven. At nights, I was like, I have to go walk in the snow. So I threw on some rugs and Adida's running socks and I thought they'd be okay.

And I walk for an hour and a half in the snow. Come home.

My toes are fully blue, and I think I have frostbite. I'm googling. Googling is not the right thing to do. And I only know two outdoorsy people. One I is a girl I have a crush on that lives in Alaska, and I'm not sending her photos of my toes. And so then I was like, I got I have to message Hannah, our producer, and so I, oh, yes, Hannah's so outdoorsy, that's the perfect process. She's just camping constantly. And so I texted her in a panic. I'm like,

It goes right on.

It was close up pictures of your toes like the grasshost photos to ever receive out of the blue.

I just send, like you need to send like a warning.

I think before, like, hey, I'm about to send you some pretty graphic photo.

I was terrified.

And then I was like, maybe the socks did bleed onto my toes, and so I was like trying to rub it off. And then she texted me be like, do not rub your toes and I'm like, well, I already rubbed them and wild I didn't know this, but Hannah is Wilderness first Aid certified.

I used to be as well when I was a campaign kind of texted Cara.

Yeah, so yeah, I put my toes in the sink and for thirty minutes while I watched drag Race.

You didn't notice when you were walking around that the water was like seeping in.

I didn't have a choice. I mean, you walk for you have to walk back.

What am I gonna do you need like winter ass boots or if you're gonna wear uggs, which like they're barely waterproof, you gotta wear wool socks.

And then afterwards I was like they're not as blue. Thank you so much. She goes and now put on socks to warm your feet, and I'm like, good idea, Like I didn't even think to put on socks.

I was still just bare after my frostbite.

But I did buy six pairs of wool socks and I picked up my old sorrel so else. Yeah, those are great for my parents' house. So now I'm walking in those. But I did have to send her blue toe photos.

Liza.

I really would hate for you to like lose a toe, to frostbite from like a New Year's resolution to get.

Healthy, not even healthy, to get thin, like to get hot. It's not even hot. Yeah, it's not even health based.

It is truly to just get thin from after COVID partying.

And I was like, I'm gonna fucking lose my big toes. Yeah, so thank you for texting me. It was an honor. God. Yeah, I'm post COVID.

I mean, you're married, it's gonna be do I'm sure we're going to party together somewhere, but like I'm ready.

I just I want to rave.

I'm going on my walks listening to Britney Spears fem Fatale album just like imagining a rave.

I just, oh my god, Well, we'll save story of the time that we basically went to a rave and did Molly to.

Why do we have to save it? No, you have to mention this. We can't just meant so.

Our friend Megan's had a birthday party and we went and did Molly in a dance warehouse.

Yeah, it's like a monthly party in LA. That's like at a big play. It's really cool and fun. And I have done Molly before, but I did. When I do it, I just am so happy. But my way of being happy is like engaging with other people. So I'm not just sitting there being like feel the music and like space out.

I'm like talking to Lisa.

And this was a few years ago, and I didn't know Lisa as well as I do now, and so I was like.

Where'd you go to college?

I'm like screaming questions to Lisa over this techno music.

And I'm like do you have any siblings? Just? And Lisa's like can I just feel the music? And like fun? I was like, cool, we'll get you up later, like so ridiculous. It was so fun.

And then I finally told you, I'm like, you can keep talking to me, just I cannot respond anymore.

I just cannot. I think I did. I think I just kept like saying this. The funny thing.

Our friend Megan has a podcast and she got this. She got a bad review for her podcast, The greatest because she revealed that her and her husband did Molly at their wedding, and someone said, I supported your podcast, but now that I know you did Molly at your wedding, you're disgusting and decided do.

It like at the ceremony. By the way, she wasn't rolling when she said I do.

She said she did it late late night, like yeah, it's crazy.

People are so judgment Kara broke.

Her knee at that one, and that broke yeah, but you I had to go to physical therapy. I was dropping it low like I was twenty years old, and guess what, I am not twenty years old. So I dropped it low twenty five times and then my knee decided to leave the wedding.

So we will get started.

Yeah, let's get going, because we've got a great case for you guy, a great episode and case for you today.

And if you're just joining us, this is the first time you've ever decided to listen. We talk about an episode of SVU, then cover the crime that is based on and we get to interview someone that was in the fucking episode.

Enjoy.

All right, guys, let's get into Counterfeit. This is a very interesting episode from an early season. Basically, a woman's body is found raped and murdered blunt force trauma under the west Side Highway, like a skiv area where like sex workers hang out.

And yeah, whenever it's under anything, I think of the Chili Pepper song under a bridge, under this bridge, that's where crimes happen.

Yeah, there's no bridge that you hang out under. That's like people are just having big sales and stuff. So this woman's name is Paula Grace. They get into the back of her car, her trunk like BMW is just parked right there with a ton of pills in the back.

Of a drug called rye Tex.

You know. One of my favorite things happens in the top of the episode.

It's when like Benson.

Oh yes, I can't believe I've per missed. This son's body is found under the Westide Highway. Benson shows up in like a sparkly dress, fresh from a date. No fewer than twelve people comment on it, like everyone's like, oh, nice dress.

Like you know, it's like I love when they come from their regular.

Life, and they do that a lot to Benson in early seasons, Like I think they're trying to be like she's trying to balance a dating life with her cop life, you know.

But also maybe it was a later date.

In my head when I think of dates, like maybe it's our generation or this was a long time ago.

It's casually, you go to dinner, you go for a drink. She looks like she's coming from a ball. Yeah, it's like, what date is this? This is a fucking New Year's outfit.

And she's it is truly a New Year's outfit, and she's in it for a while, like and every time she moves to a new scene like the Emmys, like nice dress. Like everyone, I'm like, look, I think that wardrobe was just like, hey, is for a day? We just put Benson in not a short sleeve mock turtleneck and gray.

Slax like she just wanted to live? Ye Can we just have a day where she wears something hot and it's Benson if you guys are wondering. She has a pixie baby cut with wispy bangs. So that's where we're.

At with ben That's where we are in the Benston hairtimeline.

Okay, So in the trunk of this woman's car we find a million dollars worth of this drug called Rietex.

Of course, they find out that the right text is not real.

It's a counterfeit drug that basically her company is trying to flood the market with this counterfeit drug so that when her company comes up with their drug, it's going to be a huge success. And she's about to whistle blow on this company with the FBI and reveal all this stuff that's happening with these fake pills. Meanwhile, she's also sleeping with her boss, Regolia, who wants to call Ravioli.

They call her mousey. They're being mean, they're being really mean to her.

They're like, no one really looked at her ever, Like, yeah, they're very vicious, but whatever.

Yeah, so they I think they think that he has the motive to kill her. But then suddenly there's a second victim, So we kind of are done with this storyline with Rogolia. He's obviously going to get turned over to the FBI for this drug scam. And now we're going to meet this second victim, but she's actually has survived. Her name is Francesca Resner, and she says the man who attacked her dunt dunt dunn was a cop.

Yes, and the thing that bothers well, I don't want to get ahead of myself, is finnax a little defensive.

Yeah, yeah, and this is season three of the show.

They're definitely still trying to act like cops do no wrong, like cops are the good guys blah blah blah, which we all know is a fantasy in this show.

So we also missed do you want to say our MD to me?

Had one of my favorite lines, and she wrote, no seamen, just rough Rider. Oh yeah, and rough Rider is a brand of condom in the SVU universe.

But it's also like even the rough Riders.

Right, yeah, the rough Riders was like a rap group, but like rough Riders as a condom name is really gross. Yeah, because they kept saying yeah, yeah, it's like that is an important detail.

Sorry.

So Francesca Rusner is the second victim. She says she was pulled over breathalyzed, and then the cop said, you can have sex with me and I won't arrest you. She pretends to pass out. He drags her like away from the car and reapes her. She says she wasn't drinking. They bring her into the precinct. She was definitely drinking. She blew a one point too. I don't even know if that's a.

Lot, but finn is it's a lot. Yeah.

Then they go and they find out where she was earlier that night. The bard the classic SVU thing where they go have you seen this woman? Show a picture and the bartender goes vodka coke. No Ice knows exactly what she's been.

Drinking, and he said it was a party of three hundred people over there, So I had of three hundred people he recognized this woman and remembered everything. I know.

Why why vodka coke with no ice is the most disgusting drink I can ever think of?

Well except so lady Sonya Morgan, Real Househoves of New York, CIRs coke and Rose.

Yeah that's disgusting as well, Ye, but I would imagine that both of those are a little bit chilled. No Ice, you want warm coke and vodka. I'm honestly gagging a little bit even thinking about it.

Because of fucking drag race, gagging and sickening. Now I can't even I'm like, wait, what does she mean? I'm not gagging in that way. No, my dad drinks some glasses of vodka room temperature, and when we go out to dinner or something, he'll be he'll like yell at the server and be like, no ice. He thinks it's wasting the liquor. Like that, it meant like suddenly there'll be less liquor if there's ice.

That's disgusting.

Even this is even more psychotic. We would go to Giredano's on Monday was half prised pizza night.

My dad would get a beer sneak in.

Little bottles of vodka, pour it in and put pepper in it.

And that's what he would drink with his pizza, with his deep Das vodka with beer and pepper and pepper. Fucking sick. Okay, never mind, I thought I was really going down a road here with the vodka coke, and so it's disgusting me.

I'm just I just got on a tangent of room temperature Lennos and the people you love that love them.

Well, that's the only reason I could think of about why like he would remember her anyway. They do this on countless as episodes where bartenders just remember the order. I'm like, I don't remember people that I like spent time with two weeks ago. So all the evidence in this case is starting to point to a cop. They track down two cops that are anti crime cops.

And because I also want to say to me, found blue fibers, yes, and there were navy blue fibers underneath.

So that's what if you kind of know what the episode's about.

You're like navy blue fibers, like okay, like a uniform for sure. And when Lisa says to me, she's talking about Tamaratuney, who is the yes, so too me suitcases found some navy fibers underneath that fingernails. So they narrow it down to these two cops, el Marcozy and Roger Graves. Graves is a black guy, so he's not the guy because the victims said it was a white guy. Marcosi is played by a guy who's been on four episodes of SVU. They love to use the same people. I

I don't like that. I like it because it's just people working. Yeah, it's people working.

But there's so many actors in New York, and I am creating a world in my head and it takes me out of it.

Well, the biggest case of that is what's no da as a rapist or an earlier episode that killed a stripper.

Yeah, but we disagree, Like I like seeing familiar faces and you hate it.

So that's like a fun thing.

No, I like it's different anyway. So Benson goes to visit her old boss, who gives her some intel on these two cops. Then Benson and Finn have a fight because I think Finn is again trying to be like, don't.

Rat out these cops. Oh, he's being awful.

And then I don't know if this is the part, but when Finn is to Benson is like what side are you on? And she yells the victims and it's like, yeah, bro, like you have to. That's the whole thing with evidence I don't know, right, but he.

Changes as the show goes on, Like later I think like Finn is much more open to the idea that cops can be dirty, but in early episodes.

He's very also just for remember one thing that will be important later as Francesca said that the cop took her driver's license.

Yes, yeah, so the person who raped her took her driver's license, which is scary but also feels like a trophy.

Yeah, but she was saying, she goes he knows where I live, right, so iab gets involved.

This is the first appearance of Ed Tucker, who really yes, this is his first episode. He goes on to be in like thirty episodes of SVU. He later is a romantic love interest with Benson. His character recently passed away.

No show.

Oh his character his character, not the actor. The actor is Bart Bass, also from Gossip Girl. I still I've like hoped to want Yeah, I just I'm glad he's alive.

Yeah, yes, sorry, I didn't mean to tell you he died. Tucker died.

But Tucker like, when I see him, to me, it's like a lizard, Like I'm like motherfucker. And in the real world, I'm like investigate these cops, those shady motherfuckers. But in the show, they really brainwash you. When I see him, I'm like, let our officers alone. Like I so true.

I hate what he does to me. No, it's so true.

The show paints i AB as a bad thing, and I think a lot of movies do that too, Like they paint IAB internal Affairs Bureau. If you're not like super up on this stuff.

All they're trying to do is check power.

They're just trying to check and make sure cops aren't being dicks, and they are being dicks, like heads up as we've seen. So Tucker reveals to them that Marcosi is under suspicion, suspicion of having sex with a sex worker for reduced sentence, and that she is missing this sex worker, so that is sketchy. They talk to one of her friends who tells them all about how Marcosi was kind of trying to date one of her friend Raquel, the one who's missing.

And Finn has another awful line here, yes, where he goes not on the word of some hooker and it's like you are working in special victims. Yeah, like you can't call her a hooker and not trust her if your job is to help her, right, So that you know, I love Finn, but.

Yeah, he's some problematic at the beginning. I mean remember he was like not cool about a son being gay for a minute. So Finn definitely grows.

Because even the beginning of this episode, he's like jimmying a car and they're like, were you a car robber? He's like, I was in the Boy Scouts but he winks yeah, so you know he has a pass.

He's as this is also there's another quote here where Craigan, I think, says nobody wants the media bad mouthing the.

Job, and I was just like, Lol, it's twenty twenty.

That's all people do now is bad mouthed Cops Finn, Benson, and Tucker. They investigate Marcosi's locker where they find rough Riders mount up. They find the same brand of condom that they found in the first victims.

So he's like a teenage boy and he has like sexy women photos in the inside.

Yeah, cop locker, He's got like hot babes inside of his locker.

It's really creepy. That's weird to me as a grown person. Well, they're setting it up.

They're setting it up that this guy is definitely this cop rapist, right, like.

Because he has a chain on his neck. He has like a gold necklace, so it's like, you know, he's problematic.

Yeah, so yeah, there's a lot of evidence that seems to just point to Marco's being a total slime bag. Like he actually talks about how he oaks up with sex workers like to get a little extra on the side, but I never pay for it.

So it's like he's not an angel for.

Yeah, so they invest what is it called when they're in the room question, they question him, and he's not scared.

He's like, I don't need my union rep. I have nothing. Yeah, I'm linked in. So that of course is like you know usually.

Yeah, yeah, and we see Huang, we get our our buddy be d Wong. Yeah, so doctor Huang comes and interviews Mark Cozy. But you're you're just.

Like not that how they get.

It's Wong but it's h U A n G. Are you sure pretty positive? I don't think it is. I think it's Wong w O n G.

Girl.

If you're making I've seen enough credits. I think it's b D one that's because it's B. D.

Wong. Yeah, his last name is Wong. He's George Wang on the show.

I've never honest here, if someone put a gun to my head, I'd be like, his name is bea dy Wong.

I would don't care. I would hate to see that way.

I'm so is being such a fan and I had no idea that that was his name.

How you spell it? Yeah, but you're still saying it the right way. There's just spell different ways. It is BD Wong with a W. We have to cut all of this.

No, we don't.

That I mean, yeah, no, we don't say my face. I cannot believe that I didn't. So it's George.

Yeah, it's George Huang. Did they call him George?

Not really, it's always pretty much Huang. But it's funny that you thought that I was.

Just making up this pronunciation of yeah. I thought you were trying to be like, you know, rolling your rs and you're like when I speak Mandarin, and I'm like letting you.

Know, Yeah, okay, I also just learned that too.

I'm sorry. I was like, am I wrong? I had to google it to like for myself. Saying it like you sounded like a Hebrew accent.

Yeah, like hung yeah, no, I'm not trying to do like a Rachel kind of thing, which is my Hebrid name.

Okay.

So another woman then comes forward saying that she saw the story of a rapist cop in the paper because it did leak, as it always does, and Huang breaks it down that like, it's like, whoever this cop is, It's like the badge gives him power and the gun and it's all about control and he keeps the licenses as trophies.

Blah blah blah.

Then Finn and Benson go to speak to Francesca, the second victim, and guess what, she has been taken away by a cop.

But it's not them, and the neighbors all watched and yeah, everybody watched and was like, yeah, good thing.

The cops took her in, like it was weird. There was a shocking. It's like she's a party girl.

It doesn't mean she should be dragged by the police screaming right, So basically because they also, this is so messed up. I don't even know who this is, but I wrote perfect messy bun.

So oh the third victim. The third victim has a perfect messy bug. Yeah, I noticed that as well. So the third victim who came in and said, you know, I never saw his face, so she can't really identify him either, but she's definitely like it all happened in the same exact way. This is clearly just showing a pattern. So they cut mar Cosey loose because he was in custody when Francesca was taken away, so it's like he's clearly innocent.

And we find out the guy's dick doesn't work properly.

Yes, we find out that the perp who is doing this is like sometimes having a problem with erections and then he will slap the victim or something do something violent to like get going again, which.

Is not terrifying.

Plugged you, I have an old old joke where I say all the world's problems are caused by weird dickt men. Yeah, and SV proves it down and time again. Very true.

Okay, So they start to go check out maybe this is a person who isn't a cop and is posing as a cop. So they go to like these stores, and how does the NYPD gear because they cross reference the receipts from this guy's like fake uniform store with a car because MARCOSI had seen a car.

Oh yeah, he's got a comrcial license plate.

These people, I bet you're listening and you're confused, and I basically you know how he was denying being there, and then while he's being interrogated, he admits that he was there but driving away and then saw someone.

Yeah, and he thought it was his boss.

Okay, but it wasn't his boss because he ran the plate later and the plate was a cop type of car, but it was not a police issued vehicle. And that's how they find this guy, Jeffrey Trapani. So they cross reference it with the records of the store and they find this guy who's bought like the cop light, the badge, like the whole outfit whatever. And they they find this guy. He works for the city doing like trash pickup. They follow him to a cop bar where he's having a drink.

Well, yeah, they're basically implying, like, he better better kill this girl because if she because she turns up, we're going to find him.

So they follow him back to his like layer where he has Francesca tied up and he's got all of the licenses of all his victims like.

Taped to the wall, and they arrest him. And there were a lot of licenses. Yeah, there were a lot. There were a lot. There were at least a dozen, So.

He probably cut a lot of women. I mean, that's the thing. It's like he wasn't a real cop and that was upsetting. But I think a point of this, and like with the ideas, is that the women probably didn't want to come forward because he was a cop. And being a cop, it's like people are going to trust you enough to pull over, yeah, and then you can abuse your power. But it's this thing where because you're in a uniform, people will open the door to.

You and we're going to get into it like what it's based on. But there are some I mean, most recently, the Golden State killer was discovered and he was a cop. So a lot of things that the cops are doing messed up, and one can be just committing crimes outright and using no I.

Haven't all caps in my notes while I was watching that episode, like I am livid the cop wasn't guilty, Like I was so mad. But you know, we watched the show for the twists and turns.

I mean, because MARCOSI still needs to be disciplined for having sex with sex workers, like to lower their sentences or let them off like y's not okay, Yeah, so let's take a quick break and then I'm excited for you to tell me everything about the real crime this was based on.

Okay, we are going to be talking about the true crime of counterfeit, and it's a wild one. I watched The Forensic Files, another amazing crime show, and it's the base of Forensic Files is about evidence, and there was a lot of evidence in this case, a lot of amazing detective work. So we're going to get into it. Good news up top that's different from sview. I don't know if it's good. The cop is guilty here, so there's no games and the cop is so so bad.

So do you still like her? It's the same name though.

So she was like beautiful and young and had like budding environmentalist.

They said she was studying to be a teacher.

She was in track and field, worked at the zoo active like just a really seemed like an effervescent girl.

This was in southern California, right, yeah, in San Diego.

The bad guy's a California Highway Patrol hr chips. Yes, And so basically her boyfriend, also a hot guy, he had the flu, and so she decided to drive to his house be a good girlfriend, you know, take care of her boy with the flu. And she called her father at around eight pm and let him know I'm coming home. So then after a few hours, the dad knew something was wrong and he something in his gut

So the car was in what the cops called the tombs.

And it's like underneath kind of like in the SVU episode where it's like under an exit ramp on the highway that leads to nothing. It leads to like a dead end, and it is creepy, dark, eerie there. It's not like a cool place. The cops come and like from the car. What was weird was the door was open and her purse was on the sea. So that's

That's brutal.

They said, like when the cops were coming to him, he just knew and this is like pretty sad. But his response when he found out to the cops, the dad said, I wish you could have known her. She was an angel. So that was upsetting. And of course, you know, the motive wasn't clear. Nothing was clear about this, and the biggest question for the police were what made her pull over here?

What made her go over there?

And obviously because we know what's about to happen, we know it's the cop, so that was hard for them to figure out. And like Finn Toutuola, this cop and this forensic files that keep being interviewed, and he keeps being like, I didn't think it was him, and it's like more and more evidence. He's like, I couldn't believe it, I said, and then it's like you were wrong, Like so he you know, there was a true life Finn in the situation. But yeah, so there's no clear motive,

On so that was the cause of death, is trigulation. Strangulation. There was a bruise on her.

Face and no sexual assault, so that's you know, different from SVU. Then they found evidence of her filling up her gas tank at the chevron. Okay, so they do have a run video and everything seemed kosher. There was nothing weird happening at the gas station. But at the crime scene there were two suspicious SAPs. There were two suspicious skid marks. Apecials had suspicious skid marks is like a that sounds like a way to warm up in theater cars.

Yeah.

Yeah, So they found two of them and they couldn't tell if it was breaking or accelerating or whatever. But the space between the tracks was fifty three inches, so I guess that's like a big gap.

So they assume it's a big car.

So I just I love evidence based information like this, Like I just I think it's so magical. My favorite doctor Michael Baden. I love doctor Michael Bodden, legendary forensic pathologist. He always says forensics is the dead communicating. Yeah, It's like I just got chills thinking about it. It truly is like the dead somehow helping find their killers. Yea. And so it's really beautiful. So they said it was a big car. It had to be someone they trusted

A lot of media. So Craigpyre a chip.

He goes on the local news to do a segment about how women should protect themselves from this happening to them, and then all of a sudden, from that, floods of women start calling being like that creep pulled me over.

And when he pulled those people over, those women over, what did he do?

So this is what's crazy. There was no physical violence or touching on any of these women. He just sat in the passenger seat and spoke to them inappropriately.

So there's a lot of sexual language.

He was trying to get dates, right, Is that what I read something that he was trying to like date these women. So I think he was like talking to them creepily and hoping one of them would be like, I like.

This, but guess what.

No, Yeah, it was kind of hook speed dates, I guess yeah. And he took them to that particular off right. It was like the same off ramp. I think that was his favorite off ramp. It went to nothing, and so they all went there. So obviously a connector. But yeah, these women said that he would just ask questions and say in appropriate sexual shit.

But that's it.

That date thing actually makes sense because he's obviously a fucking weirdo.

Yeah.

Fuck in the real world, I can't figure it out. A weird dick man, for sure, a weird dick man. So yeah, So then they go to his logs and in the logs it says that he was somewhere else. Then they dig deeper there are race marks. Oh, so like where that log that kept put him somewhere else? There wasn't any race mark in there, so that's something

This police uniform.

And so they do a test and they the jobs are insane. So we go to this next guy, and it's senior research microscopist.

Okay, that's a wild job. That is a world What does that mean.

He's the head of microscopes, microscopist bhierroscopist.

Yeah, so his name is Skimmed.

And there's another skin too, but who has a different crazy job.

We'll get to it.

But the other Skip is a forensic undentologist.

Oh like dental stuff. Oh, dentology. I'm glad you know it all.

So we go to Skip, who's the professor wizard of microscopes, and he sees that the.

Yellow fibers are the same.

Of course that could be circumstantial eminence and the police chief guy, I don't I didn't even write his fucking name down. He still doesn't believe it. So he brings in a ton of other uniforms and those yellow fibers do not match. So this is like an exact match of the yellow fiber from his uniform that was found okay, with her also.

On his uniform.

Yeah, there were purple fibers from her slamants on him. Still, Yeah, purple fibers were found on his shit. They were an exact match for Kara's sweatpants.

Whoa.

They must have closed in on this like pretty quickly, because it sounds.

Like, oh two weeks. Yeah, it took to it.

It has happened in the next day, we say an SVU, where like nothing goes this quickly in the law and order like world, but.

In this case, it seems like things move when.

Everything's in duck center and they want to solve it. Yeah, you know, and you know she was visiting her boyfriend like full sweatpants. That's a that's a that's a girlfriend not fit, that is a wifey outfit. So they sprayed his car with loo min all to check for blood. There was nothing, but they did find yellow rope underneath the spare tire and that is that's the rope. So one of the skips asked to look at the rope. Skips Berber, I don't know where all these skips.

You have to be a forensic got ontologist if your name is Skips Berber.

That's like the rules. I feel like God, I just want to find forensic love. Okay.

I don't know if I would love or hate dating a forensic person, but it.

Is they would hate it because you would ask a billion questions every day, like tell me about the trace evidence.

Did you find a partial like you would?

No.

I there was one blood splatter analyst at my show once in San Diego, actually at the La Joya comedy store, and yeah, I bothered him for a while afterwards, because you know, I do jokes about forensics.

I love it. And he goes, guess what they also say blood spatter is bullshit? Now it is.

He did other blood testings, but yeah, they said blood dexter's job is bullshit, not real.

So the rope has like traces, like it's what you was used to strangle her.

Yeah, okay, they also find a tiny drop of blood on her shoes. Oh but the DNA this is in the eighties, the DNA technology was not there yet, but they of course kept it and it's sealed, and you know, they kept it and that's going to be important later on. Also, again, circumstantial. A lot of this evidence was circumstantial and not to

It's his broll. My daughter has a b really yeah.

And you love to give blood, so I'm sure Ray will be giving you yeah to the moment she can all do you have to be?

I think too for people that don't know, Kara is really a member of the community. You help the community a lot, thank you. So yeah, he's a thirteen year vet.

He got charged with first degree murder and it's like, how did the cops figure this? Yeah, which is like so fucking weird, it's sad and fucked. And the skid marks were equal to his car, yeah, obviously a police car. And they figured out that the bruise on her face was a flashlight, a police flash light the same size against again circumstantial.

They couldn't put it.

But the Marx left are the marks that would have been left by a police flashlight, and you know those are fucking.

Heaviest, Yeah, like a light. Yeah.

So the prosecutors think he like saw her pumping gas, was intrigued by her, followed her and then.

Pulled her over.

And she wasn't timid and she didn't want it, and I think she like fought back a little or didn't want to exit the car, like, just didn't give him what he wanted in whatever way. So they think that he hit her and then she passed out and then he realized, oh, she can id me. Yeah, so while she was unconscious, he strangled her with the rope.

The fucked up thing.

You know, they didn't find any fibers inside the cruiser. He put her on the hood of the car and drove to the bridge and flung her off, so you know, calculated and them.

Yeah, very fucked up.

But she didn't have to die. It was just because he wanted to keep his job. He loved being a cop. Like that's what all of the coworkers said that he was upset. I think that's what we're finding. If you're a cop, you should not want to be a cop, then you could be good, like if you always wanted to be a cop.

There something is something that something's hinged in there. Yeah. They said that he had a hot pencil, that he loved it.

Like ever, his whole identity was being on what hot pencil mean like that he was ready to write it tickets, He was like handing tickets to.

Everyone he could and so hot pencil pyre.

Yeah, he could have left it. He just didn't want to lose his job. So it's like it's so fucked up.

You lost your freedom, and like you're you were not good at hiding it for the fact that you are a cop and you should know about this stuff.

It's just so fucked up that all of it's fucked up. But he could have left turn to live.

And you know, I yeah, he could have.

I honestly, this sounds terrible, but I feel like he could have like framed it that she tried to attack him and that he did it in self defense. Like then it's just he said, she said, and she gets to live, you know, yeah, Like did he always have it in it is his first victim? Like we don't even know.

And then also like all those other thirty women could have said something too, like why wasn't he ever scared of that that's going on the.

Ailes when so many women that no one would report it or like get a badge number, but that's also the eighties or for them today, Like I mean, I definitely would be like what's your badge number? Like you know, a cop getting in your car is creepy, you know, and.

Then like some of the advice he was giving on the news was like if you're about to be pulled over, or maybe it was something else I saw, but like you ask them to call more hell, like you don't get out, like you call the police and you double check or you're like, yeah, you send the chip like more police over, like if you want the guy was the fake cop, Like the fake cop pulls you over and you don't know, you could be like you should call NYPD by like make sure I don't know what it is.

I mean back to the episode a little bit. It is like kind of I've talked to cops a few times in my life.

I've never been like, show me your badge. Is this real?

Like if someone's dressed in like a good enough outfit, right, I know, it's like scary to when.

I think about hocus Pocus when the kids start talking to a cop on Halloween and it was a fake cop. I don't know if that's a monumental moment, how much crossover there is with true crime and focus, but.

I'll probably a lot.

So yeah, so it's all pretty upset, you know. Cara felt threat and trying to go he hit her. It's just it's really awful. And they mentioned how it's interesting that one yellow thread from his patch, this kind is.

Why he got his nail in his coffin kind of yeah, but then can you're probably gonna get to this. But I was reading a little bit about this case that he's been up for parole several times and he's offered and they've offered him to submit his DNA and he denies it.

He's still maintains his innocence, but he won't give DNA. Yeah, so they have the blood from the boot, right, So he keeps.

Saying he's innocent.

So they're like, listen, dude, we got the DNA, Like, give us your DNA and we'll clear it.

And he's like nah, Yeah.

So he's obviously guilty because who wouldn't use new technology to clear their name and get their job back. And you could probably sue the state, you know, like you could do so much. And he got twenty five years in prison, but.

He keeps getting denied parole.

Yeah, because he's been up for a bunch of times, like in the past ten years.

I feel like and he's not it's.

And then this is a nice sad ending. The dad was visiting that spot and actually had a heart attack and.

Died, And on the spot where she died, yeah.

Like a few feet away there. They set up a bench and garden there, and they up kept. They do up keep to it because they love, love and miss their daughter so much. And he was there visiting and had a heart attack and died, and.

He just was going to join her, yeah in heaven.

Yeah, So if you lived in that case, I mean, I wonder what he as he gave. I don't know what I would do if I was like on and but it's also different. Like if let's say I'm speeding on a highway. There's lots of cars, I see a truck, there's a McDonald's one hundred feet away. I'll pull over. I'll give me a ticket whatever. There's like lots of evidence, there might be cameras. I because of shows like this, I and because of you know, looking at all these crimes.

I don't trust it.

It seems weird or like going off of a highway, But that's what that's the trouble is like we're taught to trust law enforcement, right, and it's dangerous and I want to know the fucking laws and rules of these costume stores uniforms. I know, were you in high school and like scrubs were in or maybe you were in college.

Scabs were huge, and.

So remember Dirty John he was just wearing scrubs all the time.

Yeah, but he was trying to be a doctor. No, he was.

He was claiming to be an an aestesiologist. Yeah, he didn't work, I know.

But if I just wore scrubs to classic, I wasn't trying to like lure a woman with money to fuck me. I was just trying to be hips. So I remember going to those stores and be like, how.

Do you know?

Yeah that is weird, Like even like a nurse, Yeah, I don't know. A cop is a really messed up form to sell A lot of the Army Navy. They sell like army stuff, but it's all kind of like just camo stuff. It's not like anyone's trying to like go run and impersonate a military person.

And like get into a war. One time I went to the US Army Navy store. I called them and I was looking for Soviet shit for my dad and I was like, hey, do you have any Soviet shit?

And they were so offended, and I was like, oh, this is aus military. I thought that I have lots of crap.

From everywhere, and yeah, I just got hung up on in like a very aggression.

Well I think that's because you were thinking of it as more of a costume store and they were thinking of it as like a lifestyle store.

Yeah.

Yeah, they were really mad about that. Yeah, so that it is a really sad crime. You know, don't trust the police.

I will actually say I was recently pulled over by a cop on my way to Colorado.

I recently drove to Colorado. I was pulled over in Utah.

The speed limit was eighty and I was going faster than that and I got away with a warning, and I had weed with me, and I just was never scared for a second because I was like, oh, I'm a white woman, like, and I just feel bad that that's not the experience stuff like any person of color in this country.

No.

I was online today and there's like a young black dude, and he invented like this red little pop up folder that you hang on the outside of your window that has your insurance and all the documents, and it has like a clear thing to put your license to them.

By the time the cop comes.

Oh, you don't even have to open the window and do any oh, and.

Then the cop can see where your hands are. It's just like sick that this is an invention that needs to happen. And I the thing is like, it doesn't matter what black people do if the goal of the cop is to kill them, right, you know, like it doesn't because there's been so many instances where black people are fully doing nothing and what's it called complying complying and still get shot and killed and murdered. So it's like, hopefully that helped, but it's like they have followed rules

No, So I was like a Mennas.

I shove, I screamed, I would banged my head on the fish tank, like I said awful things to them. One time I was arrested, I went limp. They put handcuffs on me and I went boneless. I went boneless and they had to drag me. I was just I shut doors. I hit a cop like I truly was a fucking monster.

And nothing happened to you. I served two days in jail.

No in terms of getting correct, like assaulted correct because I do.

Fight with family that are not agreeing with me on a lot of stuff. And that's like what I always say, I go.

Can you imagine if that day that cop decided to shoot me, and everyone on television and on the internet was saying I fucking deserved it because I was a dumb bitch and that I deserve to die, and they usually go silent there, but it's fucked up.

And in this case, this was a predator against women. He was probably pulling women over of all colors and creeds, but he was like fully just trying to intimidate women.

And then and that's.

Fucked up down that you say that, because it's like what if I'm like I don't trust you, I'm making sure you're a real cop, go fuck yourself, Like I probably even also have the privilege to be able to do that.

Rude.

Yeah, what if a black woman was like I'm gonna figure it out out, it would be like she's on the run or something like.

Its fucked up.

But I'm glad I have my violent cop story to use as proof for ammunition for her family arguments, for family cop arguments, because it's just like the way people try to find reasons why it was okay to kill someone is so fucked up. And I feel like I gave a cop a million reasons to hit me, yeah, or to do worse to me.

To do something, yeah, like hit you or you know, a soul.

And I got arrested twice in three weeks. Woo, you were on a tear girl.

Yeah.

Anyway, that was a great recap and I'm excited to talk to our guests. Okay, time for our guest interview. We're so excited to have this next actor on the show.

He is a Law and Order staple.

I believe he's been on, if not all of the franchises. He's definitely been on Original Recipe and SVU. People know him as Danny Noonan from Caddie Shack. He also has recently appeared in City on the Hill with Brian Cranston on Amazon.

He's been on Sneaky Pete.

He has honestly a very very big IMDb that you should check out. And we've just will a little note really quickly that his audio starts out a little shaky because we are in quarantine, but just stick with it. It really clears up, and guys, we're really jazz to talk to Officer Marcosi himself.

Michael O'Keeffe, Well, what's amazing about you? Michael? You've been multiple characters in SVU.

We were talking about the episode Counterfeit, but you've played priest cop and dad of victim. So Counterfeit you're like a bad cop, but you're not the baddest cop. Like you don't end up being the murderer, but you just have sex with sex workers, but you end up helping the SVU unit find the bad cop.

And it's like a person pretending to be a copy.

I'm the red herring in that episode. Yes, yes, exactly, you know, And just so you know, it could sound to some people off putting that actors need to be reminded of what they actually did when they did that, But it's one of those things, especially with Law and Order, like you know what I have you remind me of the show is like right, yeah, okay, yeah I did that. Okay, okay, yeah, now I'm back. I'm back remember this now.

Well, to be fair, it was season three and the show's beginning. It's twenty second season, so it was a little bit ago. We don't blame you for kind of forgetting and you've been at yeah you have, like Sun.

Can I do another SVU with Amanda say free wasn't?

Yes, Yeah, that's the one where you play the dad.

Father and then they saw it. I was once again the red Herring.

But then you were a priest and you were mad, oh oh that Yeah.

That's the one where he had the gay lover right and he was taking me yes, which was more or less ripped from the headlines.

Yes, so out of those three episodes, I know, it's like a little bit you're kind of searching your memory for them. But do you like, was there a favorite of your roles, Like did you love playing the priest more than the cop, more than the dad or no?

I mean it was great to connect with Amanda because we ended up becoming friends again. Later on in life. She actually married and that guard had worked with Tommy Sadowski. They now have a daughter named Nina, and Amanda and I just did a movie at the end of last year beginning of this year that's going to be on Netflix called Things Were Be Seen, so that relationship was great.

Oh love Karen Allen?

Right. Well, when Ted Kotcha directed Karen and I in a movie forty years ago in nineteen eighty in which we played lovers, Got You, Got You, we got cast his husband and wife forty years later in this movie with Amanda, and the directors a couple named Bob Pulcini and Shari Redman had no idea that Karen and I had worked together and were boyfriend and girlfriend. Afterwards, at the time. So then Ted was responsible for bringing me into that first spu.

So when you say, like, oh, Ted Kotcheff brot me in on this or Warren, like, you never auditioned for a Law and Order, you just kind of like get these parts offered.

Pretty much, Lawn Order franchise has always called and just say we could come and you know, and be on the show. I don't think I ever auditioned for and I've done a few. Now I heard another thing about them. You might want to know about Law and Order, which may or may not be true, but I say it kind of feels true.

Is we love an unverified rumor go ahead?

Yeah that, well, then you know you've come to the right actor. I did so many of them that Dick Wolfe, the showrunner, said to his producers, you cannot have Michael O'Keeffe on one of the Law and Orders until he's until it's been six months since you've on the last. And that's going to be called the O'Keefe rule. And that o'keef rule is now in place for all actors. If you have an actor on one Lawn Order franchise

Well, because we're in a big debate about that about characters being reused.

And when they're because I had, like, we've seen every episode. I'm sort of a purist, and I'm like, if I've seen you as a dirty cop, I still remember you, like five years later as the dad and I'm like, oh, he's not a cop anymore.

He's a different person.

But the best is they had one woman as she murdered a stripper and then she became the DA and was the like lead attorney for seasons.

Yeah, I love them. They bring people back.

No, I think it's obviously for actors, it's great to bring people back. I'm just joking as like a viewer that I'm like, I recognize these people.

Well, yeah, of course. And you know it's a New York thing. You know, it's it's a New York based show. All the shows are made in New York and it's a great thing for New York City actors. And you know, I'm not a New York City actor anymore. I live in country not so far from New York. But it's one of those things where it kind of it's a very well oiled machine.

You know.

They have these studios over at Chelsea Piers and the crews are amazing. The directors are always great. And some of the directors like I had worked with years before. One was a camera operator and who'd worked his way up to being a director. I know there was a

No, whenever I go to see a play off Broadway or a Broadway the playbill is always filled with sv credits and always I hear that's.

Like a trivia game, like when people go to this theater though, like which order of one order? I see this guy, and and what do you play? And I think when you're playing a guest star on those shows, whether it's SVU or the original whatever it is. You're always the criminal of the week, or you know, in the case of SVU, per over of the week because the regulars are the ones who have to have the moral high ground and somebody else has to you know,

You're like, yeah, okay, Well that's why the Counterfeit episode was exciting because we obviously assumed it was you the whole time.

Yeah, and there was a little twist.

Michael, I know you mentioned the Netflix movie that can you say again what the Netflix movie.

Is called Coming Out? Well, things heard and scene with a man is safety and James Norton. I'm really looking forward to seeing that. And I did a pilot with John c Riley for HBO about the acquisition of Magic Johnson for the Los Angeles Lakers, and he plays Jerry Buss and I played Jack Kent Cook, the guy who sold Jerry Bus to the Lakers. And I'm doing this a little bit on a City on a Hill for Showtime with Kevin Bacon and Aldus homage.

Wow, you're busy. Well that's awesome.

Well, our listeners will all know where to find you and look out for your work.

And thanks for and thank.

You so muchy and taking the nominated guest for us. Yeah, pretty thrilliant.

Well, I'm thrilled to be here. I'm glad you guys gave me the nod as were. It's nice to be singled out. So as for you fans, see.

You later, all right, that was amazing. That was amazing. Post mortem.

Listen, this is our post mortem. Let's break down what we think. I mean, I'll tell you what I learned.

What did you like? If I commit a crime, I'm not going to go on the news.

And advertise the Yeah, so I think that's what I've learned. If I'm going to want to spree, I'm not gonna go on Barney and be.

Like, don't do this. Yeah yeah.

I mean i'd like to say, like I want women to feel empowered to like speak up against bad cops, but like scary, poor care girl fought back and lost your life.

So I think the lesson is, if you're getting pulled over on a dark, creepy movie set type spot right, keep it, keep it.

Fish, get pull over at a gas station, pull over underneath a street lamp, like somewhere where there's like light and people and we're.

On the highway. Yeah, yeah, least a highway, don't go on some exit ramp. Yeah.

I mean we're not victim blaming. You're not victim blaming. We're just saying, this is just something that I'm going to take with me.

Yeah.

If I ever get pulled over and the cop asks me to pull over somewhere, I hope that I'm in a position where I can not follow the rules. And that's dangerous for people too. I mean, it's all fucking dangerous. That's the scary thing. No matter what the right thing you think is, there's fucking risks involved.

There's risks everywhere.

Man.

Also, a lesson from the episode is like, beware of people that are like police junkies, like people that like love cop stuff and are like I want to dress up like a cop.

I want to buy Yeah.

They have a lot of books about shit killers, cops, criminal justice.

Yeah, and the going to law school.

Yeah, that's actually a really good one. I also want to say, don't let your boss pay for your apartment.

Yeah, come on, guys, that's suck your boss. But don't get if maybe actually I.

Take it back, have your boss pay for your apartment and cheat on his wife who cares. No, don't fuck people that are gonna call you mousey and ugly. I say that right, It's a good lesson to learn. And don't wear a gold necklace. You will be presumed guilty, as I'm wearing two gold necklaces.

I think.

My major takeaway also from the episode is vodka and coke with no ice is the most disgusting drink I can think of. Yeah, okay, now it is time for what would Sister Peg Do? Which is our weekly segment where we give you some resource or an action item to do that is related to the episode. Today, we would encourage everybody to join Karen Nott's family in writing to the California Governor Gavin Newsom to block an early release for Craig pie Or, the officer found guilty of

Next week we'll be doing a credo, which is season twenty, episode five, and it is a good one. As always, Hulu has all the episodes Peacock, and we had one person right in saying she has all the DVDs, so you can always invest in those as well.

And if you are driving right now and you're like, you can't write down what our next episode is, remember that we do post it. We are now posting it in our show notes what the next episode will be, and we are also posting it on our social media, both our Twitter and our Instagram every Thursday.

See you next week. Bye. That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us, or episodes you like us to cover, shoot us an email at That's Messed Up pod at gmail dot com.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up pod and on Twitter at Messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Clank and at Glitter Cheese. As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our producer and fellow s V super fan Hannah Kyle Craton.

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