Countdown w/ Andrea Bowen

Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

These are our stories. Dune Done.

Hello and welcome to That's Messed Up, a SVU podcast.

I'm one of your hosts, Kara Klink. I'm the other one, Lisa Traeger. We talk SVU, we talk crimes, we have guests. It's really a jam packed podcast with a lot of work that maybe we didn't consider before we.

Started the podcast. JK.

We love it so much, so true so, but up top we like to chitchat catch up. We've been in different states, Cara, I mean luckily I got to see you for one little drinks moment yeah, last week. But really we've been separate for months. I know that it's like the pandemic again. But JK, we're out in the.

Forbid. I everything's good. Yeah.

I went on a two week amazing trip with my kids to Vermont and to the East Coast, saw some family, went to my summer camp.

It was awesome. Everything was great. The kids were good on the.

Plane, like except Rosie Pete on herself on purpose in the bathroom, and I forgot to bring her extra pants, so she was just butt out the entire like half of the flight. And then one of the flight attendants was like, what happened to your pants? And Rosie was like, hey, like, would not keep a blanket around yourself? I keep getting in trouble for having Rosie naked from the waist down at different places. Anyway, I wanted to just say one quick thing because I know you have a lot of

I am really.

Loving Organized Crime, not the OC starring Misha Barton, OC Organized Crime Christopher Maloney spin off. It is so different from SVU. It moves so quickly. They resolve plotline so quick. I love that. I watch all these shows that are like thrillery and you're like, what happened to that guy?

Well? Are they ever gonna pay off this one?

And I get that there's like an art to like leaving a lot of different storyline simmering and then getting back to them. No, this show uses all this crazy technology that's probably not even real. They're like found him found this girl like stables chasing down hit women. He just chased a hit woman through the streets through a fashion show. Like it's crazy. That's free advertisement. They have not paid us. And I'm just telling you, guys, get into OC.

I'm liking it.

Well, you know what, I've been seeing a lot of buzz with people that we know really liking the new selling the OC. It's like a spinning it's a spinoff of Selling Sunset called Selling OC. And the tweets I'm seeing that it's one of the best realities shows of all time, that it's unhitched and insane, that it's like the best television from people I respect, that love that love TV, and so I'm excited. I tried to watch last night, but I was way too drunk and I just needed Seinfeld.

I found a new hairbo sour Kicks.

They're little sneakers and no one was I was like, oh, these are fresh. I'm like, this is a new batch like feel the texture, and everyone was I was with was like, wow, this is the freshest texture ever. I go, No, I'm like a pro on gummy candies, like this is good, such good flavors. If you see the Harbo Sour Kicks. There's a sour grape flavor. Can you fucking believe that it's It's good? Yeah, it was really good. But so I'm excited to watch that. I am so pumped for

So shout out to Lindsay.

I don't watch, but wasn't it like forever? Her being like, why don't we date? And him being like no, no, no, And then they finally get together. No, there's a little more nuanced to that carey.

So they are.

They are best friends, and then there's one night where

It's so fucked up.

And she just is who she is and everyone always has an issue. Like one of her ex boyfriends, like she gets drunk and likes to take her titties out and he would be pissed. And it's like Carl just loves her for who she is, and like they just are really cute and I just.

Can't believe that like two people that like we're on this show about like debaucherous like hooking up, are now like we found monogamy and sobriety together on this show.

Like yeah, and they.

Lived in the same building in Manhattan and like also like while Lindsay was you know after this Smithscharage like trying to have a great summer. They also like hate like the there's one really toxic relationship on that show, Kyle and Amanda, and it's like horrific.

It's like, Kyle went to my college. Oh my god, he's a know this is our friend? Do our friends know this?

I think I've told her Kyle went is a two or three years behind me. I think he was a freshman when I was a senior.

So they're reallylationships is horrible, Like before the wedding, they're crying, they don't fuck, they fight all the time. She breaks his toilet, like I kinda watch fucking summer. They have like a business together. It's like love your voice. Yeah, And so eventually he's like telling one of her friends, he goes, we have nothing in common except the business. Like they are the most awful relationship. She's always crying.

Your life is a mess?

Your life's a mess, Like you're such a this than that, And she's just like, I own my own PR firm. I'm hot as head, Like what's going on here? And so I just love that, like they came up out on top of like having this like beautiful relationship and I wish them all the best. And so I I mean, I only started watching the show maybe two and a half weeks ago.

I am not I would die for Lindsay Hubbard. I would die for her.

I cannot believe you started two weeks ago.

I thought you were like I knew you were a like a og summers.

Probably a three week So yeah, I was wing extremely important to me for the last three weeks of my life.

Well, because you know, my best friend uh lives here and we don't see each other that often, and we both are TV people. So there were a couple of days where we did not leave the couch and we watched Summer House for.

Like ten hours a day. Oh wow, minimum to.

Be I love the day.

I love a day where you can just watch TV all day. It's so fun. My husband doesn't like to binge, as you know.

But yeah, so I'm just like really happy for them. Also, we had to talk about Body's Body's Body is this New York Times thing.

I can't believe you haven't.

It sounds like the new cat person remember that, like article called cat Person that everybody was talking about, and then there was like the other like there's all these like articles like and everyone's like, have you have you read cat Person?

Like this is different.

So basically it's a horror movie like Clue Who Done It? But with like gen z vibes, Rachel sent it's in it. Yeah, yes, I've seen a trailer. Yeah it looks amazing. I can't wait to see it. So this critic arts critic at the Times wrote in her review, they wrote, ninety five percent of this movie is an advertisement for cleavage.

It's all about titties.

And one of the actresses from that show did not from the movie. Didn't like that, so privately DMD this critic and just wrote, maybe if you weren't so focused on our tits, you could have watched the movie because it's good, like something like that, like you know, sort of looking at her.

Tits, watch the movie.

So this critic decides to publicly show everyone this private DM, but still spin it like they're like a victim where they're like these power dynamics. I will not be treated like this, And it's like it was a private DM, like you're making it public.

There is no power dynamic. Yeah, so the power dynamic.

It was a black actress, Like, were what power dynamics are you actually talking about? And I don't know either of your names, none of you. I don't you know what I mean. It's like what power? So she and then people start piling on her because she's so annoying, and then a TikTok on surfaces from a while ago where she's just like five tips on how to be a successful writer, and then the first ones like have talent.

I'm just talented. I don't know what to say.

I don't even have real formal training, Like I just I am an incredible writer too, have an amazing point of view. You don't have to know the right point of view, but I have a very strong point of view on arts and criticism. And like keeps just talking about She's like, my therapist would love how positive I'm being about myself because I never say nice things about myself.

So she's talking about like how to be a writer, how she's so good, how her first article was barely edited and made the cover of the Arts and Culture section comes out. Her father works at the New York Times.

Her father's worked at the New York Times for a long time, and like that works a baby, and this person has the audacity to make a thing going.

I'm just talented. I don't know what to tell you.

And then like publishing a private DM and maybe like this actress who cares about criticism, but also she was annoyed but it was so that it blew up. And this girl now has you know, deleted her TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, she's gone, no writer, Yeah, out of ran her out of town. Maybe she'll write another article or something. But she was just dragged and she seems annoying. She sounded annoying. She had a bike hanging on her wall, like nothing was good about the situation.

Oh my god. Okay, I missed this whole drama.

But I did see the trailer for Bodies, Bodies, Bodies, and I'm trying to think of where I saw it, but I it looks good.

Yeah, I want to see that.

I want to see Marcel Dechelle, me too. There's one other one someone said was good, but like I, yeah, I would love to because it's so hot here everywhere.

I would love to see in a movie.

You're gonna be in the hundreds this week in La, I really want to see Morcella sholl. I know it's going to make me cry. Wait, tell me about your shows. That Caroline's really quick before we start our episode.

Oh it was awesome. It felt so cool.

I just really felt like the coolest girl in New York, you know, headlining Carolines and running to the cellar and doing three spots at a night. Like it was just kind of like who am I like, no, you know, it just felt cool. But the last and I met a lot of listeners. Thank you for coming. I appreciate it. Such cuties, fun photos, like cool people. So the last show, there was a couple and their energy was weird, and we figured out that they had met at the airport that day.

What right.

Then there's a group of six women in their sixties and they've been friends for fifty years.

I love that they were doing a girl's trip.

They saw Michael Jackson the Musical in the day and Lisa Tragger at night.

They were going to.

Handle Inn Matine and Sunday they were just like ready to drink.

It was awesome. Then there was a couple making out dressed sexies.

So I went, okay, what's your energy? You guys are

I was just like, what is happening. I've seen kids at Carolines before and I'm always like.

Like I've been like why. I remember there was like a family at a show that I did at Carolines that was like from Sweden or Finland or something, and they were all just like had all their kids with them, and I was like, what is going on?

It was wild? But I love it. Yeah, So it was super fun.

And you can fucking buy weed at the bodega's dude. Really, you know in La it's like the you know who Sean pass and was explaining this to me, like I like comparing it we're in la It is like the Max Store. You know, they go in, there's cases and ID it's official. There's taxes here. You like, go to a smoke shop or a bodeg and you go, can I get a pre roll? And then they take a zip lock bag filled with pre rolls and then you buy one for fifteen dollars.

Oh like Lucy's. It's like selling Lucy's.

I love it. Yeah, I love it.

You guys buy a vape at from your dude, from the dude that you've been buying, you know, lighters and sandwiches from.

It's incredible. Yeah.

Now we just have to let everybody out of jail that's in jail for dealing weed.

I've seen two robberies this week, Jesus, like someone running and then someone chasing after them.

Trying to get their stuff back. Fuck.

Well, yeah, New York's lit up. Well, listen, we have to start the episode because we could chat all day, but I really quickly wanted to just remind everybody that we are going to be on tour starting very soon. I think this week when you're hearing this episode, we will be in San Diego at Ike Drop Comedy on September fifteenth, that's a Thursday, come see us. We loved our last show in San Diego. We're doing a different episode.

Woo.

We're going to be in Austin on the twenty seventh, Dallas on the twenty eighth and Houston on the twenty ninth. Please come see us, guys. We're so excited to be touring and coming to see you guys. And our live shows are so fun. I'm not just saying that because I plan them and participate in them. They are super fun and that's what all of our listeners tell us afterwards.

And hurry up because someone already wrote that the VIP tickets in New York sold out already.

Yeah, those are gone, like people are buying ticks. So yeah, not.

To get out there and get your tickets. Bring friends, bring somebody who doesn't even watch us for you. I'm telling you, the drag alongs that come to these shows always have a great time.

Oh my god, Kara, what.

I had a spinach Arctic show crab Dip yesterday.

I've had that before. It's amazing. Did it change your life?

It was really good. Come meet crab Dip with us on our tour. All right, let's start our episode.

Bye, it's time for countdown. Kara, I would say, we've been wanting to do this episode since we started.

Yeah, I don't know why, I mean to me, it just feels like a huge class, but it is supremely fucked up.

It seems like it's like season two.

They know people like their product and they're like, let's just do the most fucked up stuff possible, Like.

You know what I mean. Yeah, it is very scary. Spoiler alert.

Jim Gaffigan's in this one, so obviously we've you know, that's exciting. It's just like an incredible episode, So I'm really excited to do this.

We start with commotion.

There's gridlock on the streets of New York, steam trucks, construction, arrows, you know, lights, a lot of stuff's happening, and the camera is panning and behind all the blinking lights and trucks there's an upper class couple. I would say, right, they look kind of rich, unhappy, you know, unhappy. The man is driving, he's in a bow tie, the wife's the passenger. They're bickering. The man decided to take a shortcut. The wife calls him an idiot. He goes, you took

Is the girlfriend at the ballet? Like what is this? So?

I kind of right, yes that I thought that was kind of funny. They like stuck in just like you know why because your girlfriend's gonna be there?

Like whoa harsh?

But like, also, don't you feel like you've seen this opening before? I feel like I've seen two rich people trying to get to the opera, ballet, the gala, the fundraiser, whatever, and like they theycounter a crime. Am I crazy?

No? You know this, Karra. There's only certain amount of ways you can find a victim, you know what I mean? I walk through the bush.

I always feel like it's like unhappy rich people bickering when they stumble across a victim.

You know, absolutely no, it has happened before, and hopefully a psycho is listening that can pinpoint it and said it our way. He doesn't like being accused of having a girlfriend or that his girlfriend's at the ballet, but I would also want to be at the bell and I'm you know what I.

Mean, Yeah, whatever, let's get there.

Then we see somebody fall out of a truck and yelp, and the man is looking away and the woman's like something fell out.

The doors are open. Let the truck driver know.

So the man like you know, lowers his window to start hollering at the driver, and the truck just peels off. He doesn't give a shit, just like so fast. And then it's like do they go or wait?

What do they do? Ah?

You know?

And then a little hand reaches up and we see a little hand and they stop the car. And now we're at the and like, how did the van get away? New York City?

They're in gridlock and suddenly the van's like, I've got a mile to run.

Away, like so yeah, that's that. So now we're in the hospital. Benson and Stabler are well. Benson's in a Stabler style jacket, which is wild. It's like lammy fur in the middle and down him on the outside. I've never seen Benson in a jacket like that. And then behind and then Stabler is behind her, and then a man with thinning hair and a tie is giving us the scoo. It's Sophie Douglas eight, he says. And the man is a cop. He's not a doctor.

I didn't know.

I just saw an outfit, but then there is a badge. So she went missing three days ago. They thought it was a custodial like snatching, but I guess it's not.

There's no ransom.

But Benson and Stabler call him out on a like they're like, you're a fuck up.

It was not. It was a stranger. I don't know.

They get into a fight and I don't actually know what it's about. And I did watch it a few times. Yeah, do you know what they were fighting about?

Yeah, I think it was just like you got you know, it's what we talk about all the time. You guys were like convinced it was this custodial snatch and so you didn't like look into any other leads and like it was not that.

You know.

Yeah, you guys are married to your narrative that you get stuck on and then you you.

Know, yeah, because Stabler's never done that, right, right. So yeah, But early seasons of SVU, they're really fighting with the other cops a lot. They're trying to prove themselves. So a rape kit is happening, and it's a child and it's a sad exam and it's kind of uncomfortable and weird, and this like, you know, the detectives stroll in as this doctor is like Q tipping this child's vagina. It's like very uncomfortable. It's like, can you have waited two seconds? This is insane.

I know why they had to go in during that very vulnerable moment.

Yeah, it seemed weird.

So the doctor continues the exam and they sneak away, like five feet away, whispering, and the doc stuck starts taking pictures, and then Olivia introduces herself to Sophie, who's so cute, and Benson is blowing bubbles and while she's distracting her malonious talking to the doctor who's explaining the injuries. Not good, definitely rape. Stabler and Benson makes sad eye contact as bubbles float past Benson's face, and then the credits.

Not good.

The only thing I think about when I think of tranquilizers, I always just think of old school. I think of Will Ferrell getting tranked and being so funny in the La School.

Well that's a TRNK dart right.

Yeah, I don't remember.

It was like meant for one of the animals of the kids party and he goes down and it's like it's kind of like the Kuaylude scene with Leonardo DiCaprio and Wolf of Wall Street.

It's just like such good acting, Like it's so fun is that where he goes I love you man, but you're crazy? Like yeah, yeah, I like say that all the time. What a good movie. I love school, I love old School. Cool.

We're going streaking in the quad all right? So the white van duh okay, we know that already. The two witnesses sat behind the van for twenty minutes and couldn't give them one number of the license plate, and Benson's piss and it's like relax, like you want us all memorizing plates constantly while we're in traffic, Like I can't imagine being mad at people for not doing that. And by the way, it's a Pixie Benson, if you were wondering.

And Craigan's like, I don't give a shit.

Obviously it's you know, you'll be sensitive, but we need this information.

So we head to the.

Child Advocate Center of Manhattan on eighty first Street and it's February tenth and Cabots they're chatting with Stabler and she's like, what the fuck? How is everyone still here? I was so late. I thought you'd all be gone. And Stabler's like, well, we're having problems with this mother. She's not willing to separate, she's not willing to help us. She doesn't want Sophie talking alone. She's not gonna speak freely, and like the mom is being very annoying, but I

Perfect for the Liza Trigger interior collection. That would be like something in your home design collection.

Yeah, yeah, you said, a really cute lamp.

I don't know how I lost it along the way, But the stump of it, what is it called the stump.

Of a lamp? The pole, the handle, what is the base the base lamp? The base of the lamp was a poodle. Oh that's cute.

And the shade was white and black polka dots. Oh it was good. But i've you are impressed. I felt that.

Okay.

So you know, she starts asking questions about the man.

What color is he?

She goes like ours hair, she can't remember, but she knows he had scary teeth, like a monster. How did she meet the man? And she starts to get really emotional. She saw a puppy, and it's like, girl, we can all relate, you know what I mean, we can all bring into this puppy.

I hooked up with a guy one time who told me he had a puppy back at his apartment.

And then he didn't he did. Oh okay, just saying it's a pretty easy way to get someone to go with you.

Yeah, she feels guilty and like she's dumb, but it's like, truly, it could work on any of us. Yeah, she didn't want to get in the van, and she doesn't actually want to talk about it anymore. And then on a tiny TV in the waiting room, Stabler, Cabot and the mom are watching and the mom is like, you heard her.

She wants to stop.

It's too much, and Keba goes, we don't care what you think, and you know, they're trying to explain to her it takes time. We don't want to rush her, and the mom suggests taking her, and Stabler talks and is like like talks through the monitor thing, and it's like, hurry up.

You know, there's the mom's being a bitch.

So Benson starts pushing her to get the info of the place, a street sign, anything, and Sophie responds that he didn't talk until the room and he said that.

It was her party day.

There was balloons and stuff, but it was grim and not a real party because there was no friends there.

Like?

I believe like fortune cookies, even if they're stale. I love how they taste. Oh, controversial opinion.

I love them.

Oh yeah, I don't need to eat them at all. But of course I want a fortune. I know I want the fortune, but I also want the cookie. I'm telling you, it's weird. I just like the way they taste.

It's fine. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people don't. It's not that weird. Okay, so but okay, but for Munch to take away that opportunity for Finn bothers, you don't get to choose for him, Finn Munch. Yeah.

So they're at a man's a man's van garage spot and his name is Oliver aka Allie Jolly aka Squiggles the clown, and he molested kids.

He was hired to entertain, obviously.

So they exit the car to get this guy, and as he leaves his car, this is where Jim Gaffigan appears, can you believe it?

And he has the whitest eyebrows.

I don't think I've noticed like how white his eyebrows are, and it does make me uncomfortable. Get some eyebrows, bro. Yeah, he is very blonde, yeah, very blonde. And he's like, hey, who are you? And it's like, bro, you know they're the cops like, who else can these two people be and they're you know, it's a red herring.

It's a red herring. We know this.

But he says that he was in Connecticut painting houses all day and that his business is legit, and they're like house painting or raping, Like he's gonna be like, oh, yeah, you're right, I was raping. But the sign for the business on the van is a magnet. So it is an unmarked white van and they're like, we have to look inside. He tries to fight it, but they're gonna

He violated his parole.

They found the balloons, and they're like, we're gonna dust for fingerprints and bring him in for a lineup, so start talking Bozo.

He says, no, I didn't give a girl a party.

But it's like he won't give an alibi that would help him, and so what's gonna go.

What's happening?

So Benson and Stabler break in with something they found going through his belongings interesting and it's like it's like a calendar and all the children's events are circled, and he says that doesn't mean anything, and they're like, we're

For some reason when I look back on this episode, I always think Gaffigan is the bad guy.

But he is the red herring. Yeah he is.

It's just because the other guy is blonde as well, and like, you know, you also you with eyebrows that you can't.

Really yeah, but I remember being like Gaffigan doesn't really have like fucked up teeth, which is a huge part of this episode. So I wonder if they just gave him like a grill, a bad teeth grill.

Well, no, I don't think he had to have bad teeth.

No, I know, in my mind that's what I would think, because I always thought he was the bad guy. But he's not.

I was creating a full thing that was not real, the Mandala effect.

Yes, yes, So anyways, they say those term touchy feely games. Benson says, Connecticut PD does want a word with him, so they ditch his ass and he's gonna go back to sing. Sing for hanging out with kids at the county fair. But I don't think I've ever been to a county fair.

Well me neither.

But like and when I was in Connecticut, I never remember there being a county fair. But there were lots of fairs in the summer, like lots of carnivals where they would show up for just two days. Like I remember, I would always go to one called Saint Leo's. They were big at churches and they were so fun. I loved fairs so much. Okay, great, perfect time.

And fine kids. Yeah.

So back of the squad, they're all meeting up and finnhands Olivia Note that says that the mom wants Sophie to have more healing time and doesn't want her chatting yet, so Benson suggests, like, let's call it a day. Then it's eight pm, like peace out. They'll say hell yeah. So then Stabler's like, oh, I'll have time to go to the toy store and buy a gift for the twins' birthday. And Kathy is not gonna believe it that I bought

She left Kirsten.

Alone in the car, and then the guy saw it was an opportunity thing, I think, and he grabbed the girl dropped the beer, and that's that. It was not a planned snatch, but he saw an opportunity.

And then they see a payphone and they.

Asked the tech to dust it and also to dust all the quarters inside.

I bet that has never happened in real life ever. Ever.

Ever, we're now the apartment of Charles and Jean Gouzac, and she is saying how the car was parked right out front. She left her daughter in the car for just one moment, and the dad's like, fuck, it is all my fault. I called and asked her to pick up cigarettes, and it is your fault. And then the mom just like was saying, oh, it was so cold, I just thought it would be easy for her to sit in the car.

She's, of course crying.

Benson and Stable are asking for details about seeing anything, and they give her. The parents give them Kirsten's most recent photo. The mom is so worried, like fuck, it's past her bedtime. I hope he doesn't hurt my baby. And Benson pushes like, come on, did you see anything and she says, just the open door, that's.

All she saw.

They give her a pick from the last vacation and she has just turned to eight and they're like, we're Shirt's the same guy, and Munch is like, what are the odds there are two pedophiles with horrific teeth snatching kids and like New York, but maybe a lot, but there are there are.

So many episodes of this show.

So Benson is confused why he would risk a girl EPs so soon after the last debacle and like the kid falling out of the truck and everything, and Finn goes, I mean he was drunk, you know, Sophie was very organized and Kirsten was an impulse grab. Munch says he's flexible and he's not a first time or obviously, and Benson has pissed because she's requested certain files and they haven't come yet, and it's one thirty am. Stabler's like, fuck,

No wonder he keeps getting divorced. Yeah, they're just, but they're all just.

I think there's just showing how they're all snapped at each other because it's three am and they're all at each other's fucking throats.

Yeah, they're are testing this episode. Yeah.

So then Stabler goes, fine, I'm gonna run and get coffee, and Craigan and Munch get their orders in so much a double espresso and Craigan no foam two percent latte, and then Munch adds a pastrami on rye.

What I really am pastrami on rye?

Like, I get you're going to vote, like that's what you want from the bodega? No, ha, No, get a turkey sandwich and shut up. Then, before Stabler can leave to get all the coffees. A uniformed cop stops them, and there's boxes and boxes and boxes of files that Benson's been waiting for. So we see that Benson's been sleeping in the crib and Stabler wakes her up and she didn't even get her full thirty minute break. But the files are here. She has bedheads, she's messy. She

Yes, baby Kristin has.

Been missing for twelve Finn is in the corner, being a very lee as the type person and dripping eye drops into his eyes. For those of you who don't know, I am an eye drop queen. And then Much is like, I want some eye drops, and of course Fin will not share, and he says that's how you get pink eye, and Stabler, mister bossy pants, demands Fin gives him, gives the eye drops to Munch.

I don't remember any of this.

Oh my god.

The eye drops were just important to me because I saw myself represented. Yes, yes, so it's okay that you didn't you know, notice this one eye drop squeeze.

I also don't think sharing eye drops is the number one cause of pink eye stable or it's not washing your hands after you shit just.

FYI sure, but there has to be more.

Is the poop thing real or is that just like it is it's always poop?

Yeah, pretty much.

I don't think it's like people that are like sharing eye drops and like when was the last time you touched the eye dropper too?

I don't know.

I don't like to share mascara or like eyeliner or anything like, sure, no, you shouldn't, you shouldn't, you shouldn't.

But I think that it's mostly nine cases out of ten it's poop.

Well, my favorite eye drops are the Refresh and they come in like little vials that are like tiny plastic like you get like disposable, yeah, disposable. I like those. And it's like a little trail I leave behind. It's like a bobby bin. It's like, you know, I've been around. If there's little eye drop things everywhere, I just don't take off my makeup at night, and it does cause

We have to help her.

So they go to the Douglas residence and she's being so difficult and she's like, she told you everything she remembers, and it's like, well, how do you note that? And she starts rattling off off all the trauma symptoms that her daughter is suffering, and it's like, yeah, we know, but like, let's save the girl.

And she does not care.

Just another bit of evidence how being a parent does not make you a better person. She does not give a shit about this other child being taken. And so Stabler says, we'll get a judge to order you, and she goes, well, that's just what you'll have to do.

That's kind of a drink game thing. I do love when people like this little exchange throughout the history of SVU, I enjoy it.

Cabot and opposing counselor are pleading their cases in chambers to Judge Petrovsky and she is listening intensely. The mom thinks it's cruel, but Petrovsky orders a chat and the mom cries, and it's like, relaxed, she's safe, and you need to help this other person. So now we're back chatting with Sophie. And now I notice there's an ice cream shaped rug on the floor. So this really is a fun little investigation room for children. The pencil lamp is in the scene as well. Benson is so clever

Cool? So, now that you're kidnapped, like, what did you know? Did you get takeout? Like did you see where you ate food from?

And she stakes her hand and says no, all they ate was cupcakes, fruit punch, and candy corn and that's it.

No dinner.

And she asked like, was there anything with a name on it? And she goes, oh my god, Yes, there was a streamer at the party and it had my name on it.

So what else was at the party? We got balloons and he blew them up with his own what is it helium tank machine? And he talked like a cartoon. Oh is that what whippets are?

I mean, yeah, no, I think whippets are we'll go into like whipped cream and like other kind.

Yeah yeah, yeah, I like whippets.

But if you suck it, it doesn't do anything because I do it all the time whenever around.

Oh yeah, it's just like a fun voice just makes your release like a chipmunk.

Yeah yeah, cute. I mean, you don't even need helium. You just killed that. So now we're outside with the crew.

It's a rainy day, and they're like, oh, he went shopping for the streamer after he had the girl, So let's figure out like how many party stores there are where you can rent a helium tank and all of that stuff. And then the stabler again is on this facade that's so delusional where he's like, great, and I'll pick up some decorations for the twins' birthday party. And it's like, in what world is Kathy making you responsible for this? Like just what stop lying to all of

I'm a huge candy corn fan. I know people think it's gross, but I love it so much.

I love it. I just would rather have the pumpkins. Yeah, I like a mix. I like the candy corn with the pumpkin. But do you like the candy ki don't you like it? Which I think is called I'm not going to say it. I don't like that corn.

I think it's called Indian corn, but I don't know if you're allowed to say that anymore, because it's like Native American, not Indian.

Like.

Yeah, I don't like the chocolate corn. But when you but now they call it harvest corn.

Harvest corn, and okay, we got the right word. We got the right word. If you like chocolate candy corns, it's harvest corn. Thanks for the investigative reporting, Kara.

Back to you in the studio.

Lisa back at the office and everyone is working hard. Benson's date calls and she's like, sorry, bro, I gotta go.

Wait.

Did you see the Samuel clip that he posted on his Twitter doing Pittsburgh. So, as comedians sometimes when you're on the road, you have to do morning television or radio.

Is pressed to sell tickets.

And on morning news they asked him why he's a comedian, and he goes, my uncle molested me, and he keeps so I don't remember what else he says, but then the reporters are just like, we don't really know where to go from here.

He says like he was molested by an uncle and so he needed to like tell Dick jokes to forget about it or something like it was. It sounds bad now that we're were counting it, but it really made me laugh when I watched the clip.

It was funny. It seemed like a purposeful joke. I accidentally brought up rape on morning news in Ohio and I was with Mateo. We were co headlining Mateo Lan and all these people are very funny. Go follow them if you don't already. But Mateo and I were there, and so like he starts dying laughing because he he suddenly sees like everyone losing it and not knowing what to do. The man co host is like turning red and blotchy, and Mateo just can't stop laughing that I

Thought, oh my god, there is a clay And.

I didn't brush my hair because I thought it was radio. So I also looked out of control. I'll post a photo from this news program, but I looked wild. I did morning news yesterday and I had one eye open. I was like, truly, no makeup, just like sitting there being like, picks news, Come see me this weekend. Back at the office and everyone harvest corn. Okay, back at the office and everyone's working really hard. Benson's date calls and she's like, sorry, bro, I'm obviously trying to save

They're at thirty six hours.

Munch sadly finds three autopsy reports with the same items in the stomach that he fed Sophie.

And that is sad, but.

At least we have clues information and we could hopefully get closer to catching this guy. But now, okay, wow, that was rude, Kara JK.

I sneezed, but you know what, you know what, I'm.

Referring to there's a video on YouTube of Christina Aguilera and she's like doing an interview and someone coughs off camera, and she goes, did you really just cough?

Right now?

I can't believe He's just like truly gets livid that a man coughed.

It was the best So I kind of love doing it to people.

Okay, So anyways, but what's sad about this information is now we know that he kills the girls, So I don't love that all three are strangled, all three killed in three days of getting snatched, and all three found near the water, But like, how is there no pattern? You know, it's all separate burrows. Sophia escaped from the van on the third day near the East River, so I'm glad she's alive, Like he was obviously going to

It came in the mail three weeks after she was murdered.

And it's like, you would think the company would maybe communicate a little bit.

It's an automated process, ma'am. I'm sorry, the pictures are just going out, but she.

Wants the sailor to put the photo in his pocket when he catches the man. There weren't any leads before, but you know, she believes in the sv detectives. Everyone's on edge and needs some sleep. Craigan flips out and yells about you know, it being a pig sty and Benson's like, you're the one who said no janitor, and he's like, yeah, Olivia, it's my fault.

And it's like they're all losing it.

Munch says that they got prints off the phone, but also like who called? And there was a ten second call around this time and it was to Saul Gardner.

So they go visit this dude. It's a mess.

He's as shoveled man in his fifties and he's shitting on the detectives and how bad they look, and it's like, you look pretty bad too. But he's denying the call. He said that he was on a date with a girl. They don't believe he can get a girlfriend. They're like, listen, do you have a message you talk, like, tell us what happened. Also, this man has been in for us. S v u's just so you guys know, and each

Ha ha.

The runner of the Twins party is going to end you, Lisa. You're gonna it's gonna drive you off a.

Cliff because Benson's been with him the whole time, Like, of course she knows you didn't get anything for the party. You've been together. It's raining.

They have giant folders like the Manila folders, and they go to meet two detectives.

Eating at a diner. I love diners.

They don't want to be helpful and they want to play games. And this woman is from OZ. If you are a big OZ person, she was like a correctional officer who raped all of the inmates.

She was.

An incredible actress at Kristin Rohade. She was like and sadly she did die in twenty sixteen at the age.

Of fifty two. Oh my gosh, she's familiar to me. Yeah, she is great.

You know, she was a New York actress, a lot of procedurals cop shows, but Oz. She was a serious regular and an incredibly evil character. So yeah, I can't wait till rewatch OZ. And Sailor's trying to be, you know, reason with the guys and be kind and like we need your help. And immediately these queens people are so defensive. They're like, oh, yeah, like we had information but kept it secret because we're lazy, That's what it is.

And they're like, we have no time for this bullshit.

Ventson, slams on the table, and gives a speech about being on like turfs and ticking clocks and help and like.

We're tired, and to me, it's just like.

How embarrassing, Like a girl is missing and you're like arguing about turf, Like.

It's just so humility.

Staylor's like, listen, you interviewed like two hundred people. We don't have time to interview all these people. Did anyone stick out? So they go through the files to give their favorite options, and they're like anyone with bad teeth?

Like what's going on?

So they pick three people that they think, you know, that they pinned for the dude. So they go meet one of the guys who's welding. He doesn't have a white van. He's like, I know why you're here, and it ain't me, bitch. And so then they go to the next place and it's Dawson's photo studio and to look for mister Mills, one of the you know guys in the folder and another guy's working there and he goes, oh, yeah, that guy works here, but he's not here today, and

Holy shit.

He uses the school as a hunting ground. Finally a break, he rents the room from an old woman. So they rush to missus Rapaport's house. The guns in the air. You know, they're entering empty up, so guns, guns, guns. They see a purple blue and there's a party set up.

It says Sophie.

You know how, it says Sophie, and streamers it now, says Kirsten, and then the newspapers in the house.

He saw it.

He's on the move. Fuck, there's blood. The blood leads to a dead old woman. He killed Rappaport. So we cut back to the precinct where they all fill Kraigan and the neighbors say that she goes to Atlantic City a couple times a year, and that must be when he does the attacks because she usually goes for four days. But she lost all her money, so she came home

And so it's cute.

And then he makes Benson go breathe the air, and he makes Elliott go talk to his wife. Kathy is there with the twins and you know, there's hugs. It's cute, and he sends them to Munch, who has pudding cups, and then Kathy and Stabler hug. He apologizes and of course she's handled everything for the party. The twins back and Munch for some reason gave the moldy old pudding that was fuzzy. Yeah, like that Bart really confused me too,

And he's scared. He's like, what if he shoots me?

And Monch she's like, I'll lift, but there are sharpshooters everywhere in swat teams, and then a white van pulls in, but Saul keeps like looking back at Munch and talking and Munch is like, shut up, motherfucker stop. If he sees you talking and looking, he's gonna know the white thing like sorry.

It's like the same vibes as the lou Diamond Phillips episode where the guy it's like, shut up, stop fucking talking. All you have to do is sit there and pretend like you're doing your normal job.

Yeah.

I was thinking of the train guy the whole time as well. Yeah, And so the guy in the white van is suspicious and he you know, they yell out the windows, but no one really moves. And then I think he like notices one of the Swat team people, so they're a bad at their jobs as well, and he starts backing up, but the cops are driving in and then he tries to drive forward.

More cops.

He's surrounded your toast, bro, so you know, freeze, freeze, get your hands up. They take him disgusting ass out of the van, slam him up against the wall, and arrest him and the girls in the back of the truck and she is alive, thank gone, and a princess dress. Stabler gets her and carries her out. She's gonna live, and then you know, our criminal gets put in a cop car. Now we're at Rikers and the client wants a deal. Now this lawyer's playing it, play Frank Deal.

We love him.

And Cabot says, your client rapes and kills children. The only deal he is getting is a free last meal. But he does have a bargaining chip. There's another dead girl that none of you know about, and the body was never recovered, and Cabot says, I don't care. I have four victims. I don't need a fifth one, so like, go fuck yourself. I'll get a death penalty with or without. And he says, well, I bet the mother would like

So grows the way he talks to He's like that whisper talky voice and.

Like, yeah, he's a creep We hate him.

Yeah, yeah, we do not love him. So Cabot says, give me her name, and he says, then take the death penalty off the table and I'll shout it from the rooftops. And he is really creepy. If you guys don't watch it and you do want to be creeped out, this is pretty creepy. Cabot asks her, you know, the boss, like the head guy for you know, can you approve

And divorced for like four or five episodes. As like a bad lawyer.

So she's like, think of the mother, and he's like, I'm sure she wants him dead too, and Cabot's like, sure, but she wants to know where her baby is. And he retorts, well, what about all the mothers who want him dead and the city, even the protesters of the death penalty? You want him dead? You don't know what she says, So basically, Cabot then brings in Sophie's mom, and finally she decides to be helpful, and she convinces the man to help them find the body of the

A toughie. It is a toughy and they did a good job.

Like this seems like obviously the crime is really horrific and it's about, you know, a terrible person. But I think this one also like how hard a life of the detectives are.

Yes, yeah, even especially when someone is yeah, like moving fast like that and like they know that there's a timeline and yeah, and.

Then having to deliver the news and sleeping and missing your kid's life. So it's a very like window into the world of a detective. So I appreciate that.

Yeah, Like at one point Benson goes the only time I talk to those guys when I'm calling to cancel. It's like, yeah, that's you don't have a great social life now.

So that was a fun one.

I really don't want to know about the crime, but we will know about it.

So see you after the break.

And we're back to ruin your day with a horrific real crime. So this episode is based on a Scottish serial killer and pedophile named Robert Black. He had a lot of the classic stuff we see in serial killers.

He was born out of wedlock. His mother gave him up.

He had multiple foster parents who maybe allegedly beat him. He was a bedwetter. He went on to live in like care homes. When he was at one care home, he was molested there. He was obsessed with genitals, putting things up his ass. He was described as antisocial. Alone escalated quickly. I just want to I don't want to do like a whole this guy's whole fucking life. I just want to give you like a quick paragraph on this guy's life and then we move on to the crimes.

I mean, you have not even talked for one whole minute and we're already putting things up an ass.

Like it is wild.

Yeah, I mean, but because it's all very textbook. It's like I could go through it all, but you'd be like, yeah, Ted Bundy too. Yeah, Like it's all very textbook of what we see with a lot of these people, anti social, aloner, without a lot of friends, very unkempt, like gross, like not into showering, like bad hygiene, you know, like like nothing specific about bad teeth, but it talks about how gross he is many times in all my research that he like is not clean, you know.

Interesting and so yeah, so it's embarrassing.

In nineteen sixty three, a seven year old girl was playing alone in a park when Black lured her away with the promise of kittens, so right from the episode, and then he choked her unconscious and masturbate it over her body. But he did not kill her. He did not kill her. She was She lived, and he was arrested in charge with lude and libidinous behavior.

I don't know, you know how they have like so many weird in the UK.

It's always like you've been charged with Bobby dagging and you know, cookle shelling, Like you never know what the fuck they're talking about, Like that's what.

He jerked off above a child? Lock him up.

Yeah, well, here's what happened. He had a psych exam, and the psych exam suggested that this was an isolated incident and that he needed no treatment. Cool, so he just kept going about his day, probably just yeah, being gross. And in nineteen sixty six his landlords found out that he'd been molesting their nine year old granddaughter, but they just kicked him out and.

Didn't call the police.

Fucked up. Then in sixty seven, he moved in with a married couple and molested their six year old daughter, but they went to the police, thank god, and he did get a year in prison for that. So he goes to prison for a year for molesting the six year old girls. Not enough, I know, I know. And then in nineteen sixty eight he went back, he went back to London and started working odd jobs and building up a quite a large child sex abuse material collection.

She was nine years old.

He kidnapped, sexual assaulted, and murdered her in August of nineteen eighty one in northern Ireland, and she had just been biking to a friend's house. Her bike was found hidden under some leaves, and then her body was found six days later by some fishermen in a reservoir and she had been like drowned and strangled. So then his second but her murder is not attached to him until two thousand and nine. So then his second victim was almost a year later, in July of nineteen eighty two.

And that's that she had been sexually assaulted.

Because a couple of these victims were found so much later that the amount of decomp in their bodies unfortunately you couldn't tell that they were sexually assaulted, but like ninety nine percent chance they were. And Susan had been in blacks Van alive or dead for over twenty four hours while he finished his delivery route all around Scotland and then he ditched the body on his trip from Glasgow to London.

And then so this is where it's similar to the episode.

This guy is killing people all over the place, and in obviously on SPU they condense it just to the five boroughs, but that's why it's like hard to find him.

And in this one it's like it's Glasgow.

It's like all over the UK and honestly later other parts of Europe, but we'll get to that. Black's the second third victim, excuse me, is his youngest victim, who was five years old. Her name was Caroline Hogg. She went missing while playing outside of her house in Edinburgh, the suburbs of Edinburgh in eighty three, so almost a year later. So it's feeling like he's doing it once a year, kind of like how this guy in this episode was only doing it once or twice a year

So the cops.

Figured out pretty quickly that Susan and Caroline's murders were connected. And like I said, they didn't connect Jennifer's two thousand and nine, but they connected the first two and with the locations being far apart, they that made them think, oh, this must be a truck driver or someone who works, like you know, covering long distances for their living, and it's not it kind of works into their life that

So now it's March of nineteen eighty six.

It's three years after Caroline Hogg's body is found and Sarah Jane Harper, aged ten, goes missing from a suburb in Leeds in England, and the police are looking for a white Ford van and they say that the suspect is possibly a balding, stocky white man who isn't Three weeks later, her body was found in a river seventy miles from where she went missing, and they determined that she had died between five and eight hours of her abduction.

Picture day and the birthday day and then.

The special day. But he does take a certain amount of time with them and then kill them pretty quickly. And her murderer, luckily, was very quickly linked to the murder of Maxwell and Hogg, like for this time period, and for like the amount of technology they had, which like even though they were using a computer, it's kind of like amazing that they were.

They linked all these together so quickly.

And it's probably why this guy did not end up being able to work for like more decades. And the man this was like a full on manhunt for this guy. It ended up being like almost a decade, and they ran checks on anyone with sexual assault charges within ten years, but Black had been busted in nineteen sixty seven, so his didn't pop because his only charge had been like you know, outside of that ten year thing.

So then in nineteen.

Eighty eight, the FBI, the old trust, the FBI shows up with George Wang probably and they profile this guy. They say that the killer would be between thirty and forty years old, a loner, looking a mess, not very educated, and they said that his motives for the killing is sexual. So it's like, well, the Yorkshire Ripper, it seemed like he just wanted to murder this man. It was the murder is just to get rid of the sexual, you know,

This is so horrible. They also just spoiler alert for how horrible this is.

They also thought that he probably engaged in necrophilia and did stuff to the victim's bodies before he got rid of them. So in nineteen eighty eight, he tried to kidnap Teresa Thornhill, who was actually fifteen, but she was four foot eleven and very like petite, and that may have made him think that she was like younger than she was because fifteen's usually a little bit older than he goes for.

And she was able to fight back and get away.

She grabbed his balls that loosened up his grip and she was like struggling. She had just left her boyfriend and her boyfriend like was able to turn around and like see what was going on because she was struggling.

So he came.

She scratched as she was able to bite his arm like all this stuff. So Teresa Thornhill a badass. She gets away, but they do connect it to the same guy, like it's all connect So now in nineteen ninety, this is nine years after Jennifer Cardy, but eight years after his last note his first known victim, which was Susan Maxwell. A postal worker named David Hrkis was outside of his house saw a van grab his six year old neighbor.

Just like it's like a movie.

He said. He saw the van pull up and he saw the little girl like standing on the sidewalk and then he just saw her feet lift up off the sidewalk and like him pull her into the van. So he gets the van's plate number and calls the police immediately.

This is wild.

They arrived within six minutes, like everything's happening very quickly with this investigation. The police get there super quick. They're all figuring out what's going on. He's describing the van to the police and then he goes, that's it. There's the van, right there and they see the same van coming back through the village and.

They stop the van. They arrest the driver.

The missing girl's father is a cop, so he's there with all the other cops.

He gets onto the.

Van calling his daughter's name. They find her bound, gaged a hood over her head, inserted headfirst into a sleeping bag.

The poor thing. But she's alive.

But they said she would have died if she was in there like that for fifteen more minutes, she would have like suffocated. Unfortunately, even in that insanely quick amount of time twenty minutes, they said he was able to sexually assault her. He had taken her to a place and then he had taken a wrong turn and gone back through town and that's how they busted him. So this guy was it was a completely wrong turn that

It was a rush of blood.

I've always liked young girls since I was a young kid, and I think it was a rush of blood is a phrase that they use over there to just say like, oh,

I don't want to know what those are.

So just for the abduction of this last girl in a town called Stow, they don't release her name, but the Stowe school girl they call her. Just for this, he gets life in prison. So then they try to just tie him to the other stuff while he's in

He plaied not guilty, but then he said good job, boys, like you got me.

So isn't that kind of a missions.

Kind of yeah, kind of this is what I was reading. There's a guy named Ray Weier who was a big person in the field of treating sex offenders, and he interviewed Black many times between nineteen ninety and ninety three, and he says that it was all about control why he was not confessing, And Wyers said, quote, He's the sort of person for whom it's all about power and control.

End quote.

I did read that on Wikipedia, the Wikipedia about Robert Black. I think it's probably attributed to a book, as many things on Wikipedia are, but that is where I read it.

And he ended up.

Black ended up dying of a heart attack in jail in twenty sixteen, So he was in jail for over twenty years, and he was sixty eight when he died. And it is thought that he could be connected to a possible dozen other murders all over Europe, but none

But because when the cop was at the scene of the crime, did he know that his daughter was the one being taken?

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's like a small town, so I mean, I guess the chance of someone being their dad being a cop is high.

I don't know, just to have a thing on your head and being a sleeping bag has haunted me throughout this whole time we've been talking.

I know, I know, I know, I know, but she did live. I don't know.

I mean, how crazy that he even had the time to commit a crime like he just that's how like, you know, desperate this guy is. He doesn't even try to like get somewhere like far away where he won't get caught. He's just like I you know, like a true sick pedophile. You know.

But listen, if they fucking kept him in jail earlier, all of these girls could be alive and not fucking traumatized.

Like, yeah, it is so fucked up that he was jerking off on top of children and people are like, ah, he's fine, let him out.

Yeah yeah, wellstaid just the year what the fuck?

Yeah, The fact that we just didn't like, they just didn't consider like that these kind of crimes would lead to other crimes. And it's fucked up because it truly would have could have stopped.

That's the thing.

They were never going to put him in jail forever, and he would have kept doing it.

You know. Yeah, I'm glad he's dead and I.

Don't Yeah, Samesise, Okay, but we have a really amazing guest interview, so as always, we're excited to have that cleanse your palette.

So don't go anywhere.

Guys, We have an amazing guest this week. She is a prolific actor from both television and the Broadway stage.

You may know.

Her for her one of her most well known roles playing Terry Hatcher's daughter Julie Meyer on Desperate Housewives, and recently she started in a bunch of Lifetime movies, including Psycho, Sister in Law and the upcoming Hall Past Nightmare. But you knew her in today's episode as the adorable Sophie Douglas. Guys, listen to our amazing chat with Andrea Bowen. Thank you so much for talking to us today. This is like huge,

Yeah, I did. I've done a total of three lawn orders in the Law and Order universe. The first one I did, I was either five or six. Uh, it was very early in my professional career. We'd just moved to New York. And it is not just me, It is me, my brother Cameron, my brother Alex, and my sister Jillian.

Wow a family affair.

Family affair. Yeah, we were all cast to play a family and I I don't know. I think our mom was I don't remember. There was some something of course happened and then we were we were grace stricken. And then I did another episode of Law and Order the original the following year, I think, or something like that. Really shortly after and that one, uh, maybe my mom

Now.

Well, it's like a very terrifying episode, but you're so adorable in it. You're like such a cute I mean, it makes it like more powerful that you're like so cute. You have such a like little voice and like such a little voice.

Yeah, so funny, so funny to look back on now, I'm like, was I I was really that small and had that tiny of a little voice.

And well, so watching it, the subject matter is intense and now you're talking about smlish brains and the blood and then in this episode you have to recount this horrific trauma so do they explain it to you in different ways? Did you know what you were saying? How do they kind of prep you for that being so little?

So you know, look, I think in twenty twenty two, I would love to say that maybe the writers and or the production or the casting would have a hand in the way this information is distilled to younger people. I don't know if that is the case now, I would venture to say it is still not quite there.

Yeah, because it's like one of the only episodes I can recall, were like a little girl is like getting a pelvic exam, and I was just like, oh my god, like what did they even tell you you were doing?

Yeah?

Then you know, yeah, I know, I know, And I remember filming that. I remember lying on the you know, the hospital bed, and you know, everybody was really considerate, and I think everybody was a little bit on edge because of that. You know, I am now thirty two years old. I can only imagine being on a set and filming that with a ten year old or an eleven year old and feeling like, oh gosh, how do

Yeah?

It was such. It's a wonderful set to work. And I will say that. And I'm and they're very experienced with dealing with heinous crimes as we know, it's not in the actual like beginning of the Sculf, and so I'm sure they're really experienced with tiptoeing around things or trying to be very delicate with the way they handle things.

Yeah, for sure. And so is your mom an actor?

Like?

How did how was it a huge family affair? How do you start young? I mean you were on Broadway at five years old? So how does that happen?

My parents are not actors. They are artistic. My dad is a musician and my mom was a dancer and a performer. But no, they were out of the business. They had never done it professionally to that degree. Anyway, they pursued it, and they both had talents in those areas, but they were focused on other things. They were planning on raising They have six children. I'm the youngest, and

Okay, Well I have to jump in and tell you now that I'm also one of six kids.

I am the oldest of six kids.

I gosh, where the bookends.

Yeah, And like in a million years, if I had told my mom I want to be an actor, she would have been like, great, wait until college.

Yeah, I know, I know.

Wow, that's so amazing that like they were so because like.

They had no idea what they were getting themselves in. Then if they did, they would have said wait until college.

Yeah.

I mean, I have two kids and I'm overwhelmed constantly, so I can't imagine six kids all trying to get into that business, all with like different auditions, different like strengths. And at that point too, it was wild.

I mean it was.

It was transitioning from Columbus, Ohio in a house that accommodated us all to a first two bedroom in Queens, but then a two bedroom in midtown Manhattan. You know, there were no home computers or cell phones. We had pagers. We'd have to like stop and call into a payphone to get all of our auditions for the day, and like run around, stick this kid on a subway, and stick that kid on a subway. And I mean, it's nuts when I think about it, And I don't know

I would watch that television show. Yeah, of like the Six Industry Kids.

When we were little, we were approached by somebody, you know, before reality TV was really a thing about like pitching this idea to us of following us around town. And my parents were like, no way, dude, we're not doing that.

Are how many of the siblings are still acting?

Let me think about this. So I would say five of the six are still in the industry, and some fastt or another. A few of them went on to pursue music. Some of them are more kind of behind the scenes. My oldest brother is still in the broadway scene. He works a book of Mormon in New York. And then my other brother out here is still an actor and still professionally working. So five of the six of us have stayed in the arts realm.

What does the other one do?

Becoming a lawyer? All right, Yeah, she's in law school.

Yeah she should become an entertainment lawyer and just rep all of you.

Yeah, exactly right. She's actually been recently studying contract law. And I'm like, oh, I just consult you.

I follow a TikTok person that's like I read the Fine Prince so you don't have to, and like she reads all this stuff and helps you understand.

It's an angel. I mean, that is terrible. We none of us read it. We just immediately say accept or agree or whatever.

Well, it's just so wild. But how are the other people in school? Did you still go to school? Was it an artsy school?

Was ever? Like? How was that?

Because sometimes you hear like Taylor Swifts and Christina Aguilera'd be like, I was bullied for my success.

Yeah, right, So I was not bullied for my success. I did go to eventually, I went to We all went to PPAs, which is kind of a famous school in New York City. And I say famous, not because it's like this prestigious thing, famous because a lot of industry people went there, but it's a public school. It stands for Professional Performing Arts School. And then there's also PCs, which is a private performance art school.

Which one of your parents was usually your more on set person. And who was with you at SPU Was it your mom or your dad? It was my mom?

Your mom?

Okay? And how did you like your on screen mom? And did your on screen did your regular mom feel threatened by your on screen I think.

My sweet mom got very used to me having other moms pretty quickly, and she's wonderful. And my on screen mom is actually an actress named Debonair. I was named devon last name, Air, real name. I remember talking to her about that during filming because even though I was young, I had heard the word before, probably being a theater kid, things are described people are described as Debonair, you know,

That is so funny. What a small world.

Such a small world, I mean, it's like that. I'm sure you guys hear that all the time with law and order stories, because it's like everybody who lived in New York who was an actor has a law and order experience.

Well, I was gonna say, I wonder if at this performing arts school, so many of the kids are like, I'm heading to Chelsea Pierce. Like, I'm sure all of you are just constantly trying to play a sad kid.

I mean we did. That's the thing about when you're in a performing art school. You know, they're used to you having to leave for auditions, and some of them have strict rules against it, you know, which is kind of odd. I understand it. You don't want to compromise education, but at the same time, it's sort of odd when you're trying to get them to pursue it professionally and

Obviously we got to ask Marishka Maloney iced tea munch, you know, I mean Belzer, I said, all their names, but who yeah, tell us some stories or what you remember with the main cast.

So I definitely had the most interaction with Marishka, and she is so lovely and so gracious and giving and considerate and present and just wonderful. I would say. So by the time I did SVU, I'd been in the business for a while. I was primarily working in the Broadway community in theater. So you know, even though I'd had a couple of Law and Order experiences before, they

That's amazing that we hear only good things about her, and like everybody is so effusive about her, but this is the first time, like we've heard somebody be so affected by her as a kid, because like, I don't know, when you're a kid, I feel like you could just be like, oh, yeah, that lady was nice. Oh there are there girl cheeses today, like you know what I mean, Like yeah, And it's like, it's amazing to hear what.

An impact she made on you and that she came to your play.

I know we've heard also that she's a Broadway junkie, so I'm sure she just wanted to support you and check out another play.

I know. I don't believe that, though. I think it's amazing that she came to see the show. And you know, my other cast mates in the show too, they were like, yeah.

That must have been such a flex. You're like, I'm eleven and I'm friends with Marisha Ghari.

Yeah, I just schedule wise is so wild. So you were a kid on set all day, then at a play at night, and then and just learning the lines and doing it.

I know, I know it is. I sometimes think about my schedule between the ages of five to you know, I mean until, I mean really my whole life. But I will think about that those crucial years of when I was little, especially because I have a niece and a nephew now, and I I, you know, I just think, wow, like, what were we doing? What were we doing? I mean, they got for it. I'm super super grateful for all of that, but it is pretty wild when you think about it.

So then, Lisa, I don't know if you have any more law and order, but I know.

Well, let's go to Desperate So then you book Desperate Housewives, and then your whole family moves you and a parent you alone, and what happens You're a series regular at fourteen.

Yeah. So the process to getting to Desperate Housewives was I had come out so right not too long after I think after that episode of SVU, the show that I was doing at the time in New York closed and for the first time since being a professional actor. Myself and my brother who I'd mentioned, the other one who is also on multiple law and orders, were not in shows during what was pilot season, and our manager was like, you got to go to LA. If you want to get into TV, you gotta go to LA.

God, it was just like such a huge show I watched. It was like appointment television for me. I would like order food from this Vietnamese place every Sunday and like sit on my couch and watch that show. And I'm just wondering, like, so did you were you right away? Like, oh my god, I mean, I guess you'd been in the business for so long, but like that was the first like huge right, Like that show was like a big thing.

Yeah, it was weird. I mean it was definitely weird and foreign, and like you said, I'd been in the business for a while. But as as I'm sure other people you've talked to since Lonard is such a new York concentrated thing. You know, the theater world is it operates very differently than television. And so even though I had been lucky enough to be a part of three Broadway shows at that point, this the scale of being on a television show show that is successful is just different.

So they probably always have had solid ratings. That's why it's been on for twenty million years now. That's so funny.

Yeah, so wow, So how was I mean, how was having Terry Hatcher for your on screen mom?

Uh?

Wonderful? I really I really lucked out. I've I've lucked out consistently in the the women that I've worked with, and I've had a very I've had a very fortunate career in that from a young age, I was working with powerhouse women, leading shows, leading Broadway shows, leading you know, television shows, and then went on to be on a show for a long time that was dominated by women, which is rare, you know, and and really showed me kind of what was possible for me as an actor

I met her at a party like three years years ago and was like hello, Like I was like trying so hard to keep it together, but I was like, I've been watching you in so many things my entire life, and I was just.

Like, oh, Hi, great to meet you. Hello. I feel like I don't think I could. I don't remember what we I think we talked about. I don't know we were talking about something for a little while. But she was super nice. And I can see she has like a warmth about her.

Yeah, Like I think you can tell that on television and then it like translates in real life.

Yeah, Like she's very warm, she is very funny, and she's just great. She's just great.

Was there ever any sibling like rivalry or fighting over the fact that, like you guys were all in the same business.

I would say there is. There was never any negative competition, okay between my siblings and I. We were each other's cheerleaders and each other's support system. I will say that I think I had a better shot at growing up and turning out hopefully fingers crossed semi sane because I had so many siblings and because I had a big family who kept me in line, you know, and so no, there really wasn't any of that of it. There was really just commiseration more, you know, when things didn't go

You know.

It's like you need a little support system, and we had. We had a thriving support system within my own family, many members.

You guys like run lines together and stuff and memorize and yeah, super cute.

Yeah, we definitely did. We totally did and still do.

Uh.

My dad worked with us a lot. I would, you know, read lines with him a lot. And yeah, but my brother Cameron is I work with him all the time still when I get you know, an audition or I am about to film something and I want to do a little bit of like prep work on it. He's still somebody I go to.

So that's amazing. So nice, I.

Know, it does, it's it is nice.

It's very nice.

Yeah, my siblings and I all do completely different stuff. So I didn't even know what, but the there was always like great of overlap.

Yeah, none of you overlap at all.

Yeah, we all so interestingly, what's the age? What's the age between the first and the last.

So it's like I'm nine years older than my oldest my youngest brother, it's the same. Yeah, we're like one two three, Me and my brother and sister are one two three, and then there's like five years and then twins and then the youngest.

Wow.

Okay, so my mom wanted to have more after she's psychotic.

My mom too. I feel like once you start, once you pass four, it's like a drug.

I don't know, it's like tattoos.

Yeah, they just want to get more.

Yeah, all six of us were born, Yeah in nine years, So my sister in eighty one and me and ninety.

And she's like yeah, so I'm like more, I'm closer, I'm closer to your sister's age. And then you are a little bit younger than my youngest brother.

Yeah.

Yeah, so crazy, But that's like, I what a cool Like, I mean, it is nice to hear about little kids that also are in the business and then grow up to be normal and not like totally crazy. And it sounds like your parents really had their heads on straight about the whole thing too.

Yeah, I think they. I really think that they did a pretty remarkable job trying to create a safe and you know, I try not to use the word like normal,

So great. What's coming up?

Is there anything that we should look out for, something you'd like to tell our listeners to watch?

Sure, So I just finished filming a I guess it would be a thriller for Lifetime, And I think there's a probably a crossover audience between Law and Order fans and Lifetime movie fans. Oh yeah, and so maybe that'll be of interest. And I don't know, when it's going to air. I believe it will be this year, sometime over the next few months. It was directed by Marla Sokoloff, who I, oh, I don't know if she was on Law and Order. I would guess she was at some point.

Well, she was on the Practice, so I like another law show.

But yeah, and she was like the bad girl on Full House.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, she's had so much attitude forgot about that. I know her, She's so great and and we had the best time working together and also talking about like growing up in this business and then you know, branching off to do other things, and so we had a lot of fun. We filmed that I guess in late May into June, and so that should be out sometime soon.

And what did you say that was called?

I think so they always have like a working title and then they have what they eventually become named as. And I think I think it's they're cementing it as d Hall Past Nightmare.

Hall Past Nightmare.

Is this about somebody getting to have sex with their hall Pass?

It would be me yeah, oh, kind of scandalous for lifetime, A little racy, I.

Know, like very indecent proposal. For the lifetime. I love that.

Yeah, so we had a good time.

That's amazing.

Yeah, so I saw like you've been doing some lifetime stuff. Do you do Hallmark stuff as well?

I did one.

I did one in my early twenties or maybe when I was nineteen nineteen or twenty, and I played a paraplegia a girl who was a professional horse rider and got bucked off her horse and became a paraplegic, but then through equine therapy and romance, she was able to learn to walk again.

I was able to walk again. Yeah, oh my god. Yeah, the power of.

Oh I love it. I know. Well, I cannot wait to see hall Past night Mare. Thank you. Sounds amazing.

My grandma too. But then I told her, I was like, there might be some parts you have to like not watch. She was like at the lifetime and I.

Was like, yeah, I know, but maybe a yeah.

A lifetime is it's lifetime in twenty twenty two, grandma, exactly.

They got to keep up with the time.

That's right, that's right.

Well, thank you so much for Lisa. I don't know, do you have any lasts? This is very fun. No, I had a great time.

Well, I was just going to say I did see that you were on King of the Hill, and what a great show, and that's so cool to be a cartoon.

Yeah, I did. I was.

That was great. That was fun because once you're in that world, you kind of just are I don't want to say a pitch hitter because that sounds like I'm really like singing tooting my own horn. But I mean you're just brought in when they need, you know, people to come in to play a teenage boye or to play a young woman's voice, or to pay you know, a boys like whatever. And so I got I got into that show. I forget what the first episode I did. But then they you know, call every now and again

That's cool.

I wonder if that's like why like a secret to why it's so been so successful. And why people love it so much is like there's actual like chemistry going on between the people.

It could be, it could be. It definitely feels more like a play or a lot, you know, a live performance than than because I mean, I love the animated world and I've been lucky enough to do a lot of voice work throughout my career. There's always a difference when you're getting to read with the person who's in the scene with you and then when you're just alone imagining kind of what they might be doing. So it probably is part of why it's such a special show.

Yeah, well this was amazing. I'm so excited we got to talk to you.

Yeah, this is one of the episodes we've been dying to do since we started the pod. It's a favorite of ours. It's like scary and so thrilling. Oh caro, we did not Is it your little hand in the beginning with the car? Yeah, did they put you under the car?

It's not my hand. Oh, it is not my hand. I don't know whose little hand that is. Unlast I'm crazy. I'm gonna have to ask my mom because she would remember, but I am pretty sure that I that they were. It was on this sheet to film a certain day and we didn't get to it, and they were like, we'll just we'll just pick it up sometime.

I grabbed it like from maybe some other kid from like about like because I was like, you know, to have you there for a full shooting day or night or whatever in cold New York just for your little hand to pop up.

I know, but it's pretty tragic when you see that little hand.

Oh, Liza, that was my most important question. I'm really glad you did not let me forget it. Thank you, Kara, always have your back.

Thank you so much. This was awesome. Yeah, so impressive. Wow, she's so fun, she's cool.

I mean, to find a family who hasn't been fucked up from child acting, that's I know. I'm happy for her, her family, the choices they've made.

He's like, she's really crushing it.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

To be Broadway. I mean, she could be Leah Michelle style bitch, and she chose not to, and she chose she chose kindness.

This episode is a I don't know why I like it or like call it a classic, but it really is.

And I guess what I've learned is you have to look at every license plate forever or Marishka Hargatay will be pissed.

You know what's crazy is I used to like memorize license plates all the time, thinking if that, if that does something in a crime, I'm gonna remember. And I would like make little mnamonic devices being like cats love food CLF like that was like the license plate, you know, like and I would always try to remember them all the time, like when I was like a like a preteen, like like just thinking of all the crime shows i'd watch. I'd be like, I'm going to be the witness that

I think I could tell you the first two digits.

We were driving through Pennsylvania from Western New York so togain back into the city, and we passed the crime scene in the woods. WHOA, there was like detectives in suits and then there was someone with a CSU tank to like a crime scene investigation CSI. There was like people in CSI T shirts suits and they were on the edge of the highway like into the woods in Pennsylvania.

So damn, I wonder what they found.

I know, right, we were trying to google and stuff, but it seemed like an active investigation, so like we couldn't find anything in the news, so I don't know.

Wow, wow, wow, wow wow, that's exciting, and he is it's sad.

And then oh, you posted this and I didn't even see until then, but my friend Marie Fauston went viral with that SVU video so funny, and he gave her a T shirt. I don't know if you saw, but he brought her merch. But she said she cannot date a cop. That there's absolutely no way. Yeah, she's so funny.

Oh yeah, she met him out in the world. But he tricked her because he smelled good.

She said, yeah, so I saw her last night, got the scoop. But she is she will not be dating.

Yeah, I understand that.

Yeah, but my sister sent me her video too. Everyone was saying, it's like fun, yeah.

Yeah, yeah yeah.

Anyway, do we have any takeaways postmortem for the episode countdown? There's not me. It's not really the kind of episode where you learn anything that you did not already.

Puppies puppies, Yeah, I mean you teach puppies are the new candy.

Yeah, don't let kids get lured away.

Don eat candy corn only. Also, who is taking child photos? Let's double check them, triple check them. Let's get surveillance on anyone that does school photos. Yeah, for it's going to be a pedophile in every district. I can't imagine who else is doing school photos.

Well, people who do photography and need to pay their.

Bills and pedophile. This is how I feel about. You know, it's like the step parent thing. It's not fair of me. But if you're a step parent and you're a man, I assume you're doing it to get to the child. She's joking's.

I ain't joking, bitch.

And I ain't joking.

All right.

That is a perfect segue into this week's what would Sister peg do? You know, it's interesting that we're talking about puppies and stuff like that, because for this week's what would Sister Peg Do, which is our weekly segment where we talk to you guys, give you as an article, a organization, something that a book, something that can help you flesh out a little bit more about what you learned or saw in this week's episode or what we

And I just I found this.

Uh there's this website called very well Family dot com and it's just like a bunch of like nurses and doctors and people that get together and talk about parenting stuff and write articles about parenting stuff and everything's like, you know, seems like fact checked and legit to me.

Well did you see the most recent snatching by the way, on the internet. There was like a girl playing outside her house and some guy tried to snatch her and she like kept like she fought him off, got caught on the ring camera.

I love that.

Good girl.

Good.

We got to teach our kid y, yeah, we got to teach our kids. So anyway, this is You can check out the website very well family dot com. Their parenting articles are all medically reviewed and the link to the actual article will of course be in our show notes and in our stories, and all of our what Sister pegdew stories are saved in a highlight on our Instagram called wwspd if you ever want to check out the resources that we recommend.

Thank you so much for that, Kara. We need to protect our children.

And next week the episode will be Rhodium Nights, Season thirteen, Episode twenty three. We're jazzed as fuck and so happy that you guys listen, and we'll see you soon next week.

Come see us on tour and we love you guys. We'll see you next week. Bye. Messed Up is an exactly right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover. Shoot us an email at That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.

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And to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and to.

Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly gen Andrews.

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