Control w/ Samantha Mathis

Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on. These are our stories.

Done done, Hello and welcome to That's Messed Up NSVU podcast.

I'm Kara Klank.

And I'm Lee's a Tragger coming to you live from New York City.

Oh, we're by coastal Babies.

And even though it is in the top intro thing, we always like to explain we talk SVU, we talk crime, we have a guest, and we really love this podcast.

I like to imagine people are tuning into episode number seventy for their first taste of this podcast, so we always to explain what it is.

Yeah, they love just this specific episode and they only watched this one. Listen. Life is good.

I do have to update everybody and say I've fallen twice since last week. Oh my gosh, I sprained my ankle Friday, south by Southwestern and alley walking like fully, I felt my ankle give out, fell fell on my knee again like like I have a mark, not big, you know, it wasn't like bleeding. And then last night I got a little sauced whatever I'm eating pizza. I finally got to go to Prince Street Pizza. We're all having fun. I turn around. I didn't see there was a ledge. Fully fell again on my knee.

Like another huge fall.

But everyone made fun of me because immediately got up and goes.

I fell again. I can't stop falling. I don't know what it is.

I feel it's the Kerry Bradshaw Karma episode where with a dorm room party and she falls. I just I don't know why I keep falling.

You know, I feel as though you're cosmically connected to Rosie, and Rosie has not stopped falling in a week, like truly, you know, we have one step in our house. There is one step in our house. It's like in the hallway. It just goes from one. It is a dumb stack, just stupid. But she's been around, she's been walking in her whole life. Yesterday just fell doing it, you know what I mean. Like she just keeps falling. But for her,

Well, well, she's obviously my tether is what I'm learning, and so that's why I'm falling.

Oh my god.

Yes, when you gave her a Daniel tiger sleep, Matt, you guys got tethered, and now you're she's.

Like your voodoo doll. Baby.

I can't wait for her birthday party. I know, you know, we're trying not to do gifts. We're not doing stuffies. I might go shop in my garage. I might see what I have been there. You know she loves knickknacks. Yeah, I think maybe I'll get her a bag of used nick knacks, just to save the environment but keep keep my girl happy.

Well, well, I was gonna.

Try to make your husband mad and get her temporary tattoos.

But you said she doesn't like it. Well no, yeah, he wouldn't even care.

But like, yeah, I put one on her and she goes cool, can you take it off now? Like she just did not want it the second I put it on, so you know, but she did the same thing when I painted her nails. She goes, Okay, take it off now, Yeah that's annoying. Anyway, let me do a little bit of Let me do a little bit of announcement before I before I forget, because I just want to So we told you guys about San Francisco. That link is now live. Please buy tickets to our San Francisco show.

Let's go.

The other announcement is that our show this coming week at Dynasty Typewriter in Los Angeles is going to be live streamed. We have not announced this on the podcast yet, We've only announced it on our socials. So if you're one of our listeners that doesn't follow us on Instagram or Twitter, now you know you can go to That's Messed Up Live dot com and click on the LA show and you can buy tickets for the live stream. It is on YouTube, so you can watch it anywhere

It's a totally different episode.

And yeah, the live stream is also good for seven days, so I know it's like, if you live in New York, you don't want to watch it at one am. I get that, but it's good for seven days. Wake up on Sunday, drink your coffee, watch a little a little murder, you know, Oh.

My god, while you were is that it for announcement? Yeah, it really kills it. Well, let me give you a shout out.

I don't know if any of you know how many emails it takes to do anything, but Kara has answered all of them. So thank god the tour is happening. It would not have happened if she did not keep responding to the countless fucking emails, particular links and post.

I mean, it's a lot of logistics, a lot of moving parts.

Please like, keep supporting us so we can get an assistant. I mean, I don't even know what else to say. We can't Kara cannot keep answering these emails.

I'm gonna have to hire Rosie soon. No, And then I one more thing I was gonna say is there's like a handful of tickets left for LA. Please help us sell out. If you haven't bought your LA ticket yet, please come, there's only a few left. And then yeah, obviously come join us on the live baby, and that's it.

Tell me what else is going on? You were in text?

Well, guess so I met yesterday Miss Cracker. Uh, but I flailed and lost it and I know her. I went up to her and I was just like, oh my, I like I couldn't get it together and I don't really know why. I mean, I know, and I was like, I am so so I'm nervous and she looks at me and I go, but I know, mateo.

And then whatever, Yeah, I kept name dropping mateo.

I couldn't get a sentence out, and Miss Cracker went, I'm just a man in address, there's no reason to be nervous.

And also, Miss Cracker, it is truly five feet tall, the smallest person, yeah, like so diminutive, like not scary. While she was in full drag though at a party where no one else I mean maybe the star of the hour.

I went to.

I got to go to Cat Cohen's like Netflix special premiere gathering, and it was a Who's who. I'll tell you that it was really wild, but that crazy bitch. Her signature drink was a martini. A man left in an ambulance. People were out of their mind. The signature drink was martini. I mean, a recipe for disaster. I can't even Everyone was just losing it on these martinis all night long.

It was really wild.

I'm like, you classy bit, yeah, that's but also so chaotic.

So chaotic. Miss Cracker, though, is cool.

Like I helped Miss Cracker on a improv challenge that she won, and she like thanked me afterwards. She's like, you really got me out of my head. Thank you so much for your help on this, and you'll love this. Ms Cracker for you anything for a fellow jewis well?

Okay, wait, do you follow each other?

Can you message her and apologize that I couldn't stop stuttering?

No, I don't follow her. I'm not.

Oh my god, I don't know cut this or not.

We're all having.

Fun, I say, if we're gonna chat about drag, this season is killing me.

Well, I didn't watch the one Friday, but I obviously someone's golden ticket came out.

I'm assuming no someone again it No, nope, there was no fucking golden ticket and no one got sent home. Nope.

Why it's like a setup for Okay, if you haven't wont if you're not caught up on drag Race, please I want to know. Yeah, yeah, if you're not caught up under I don't want anyone to spoil. Also, this comes out after the next episode will have already happened, so I'm like, this will be kind of moot, but we love to talk about shit. We're on the time machine.

But it's gonna be like Lolla Perusa or whatever they did before.

Okay, just leading it into that instead of eliminating someone. But I really hope there's like a double elimination. It makes me feel like the show's gonna go on until the like fucking fall. I mean, it's like, no one's gone home and like it's crazy.

Yeah, I'm and they all just.

Did super bad on Snatch Game, like George just did a lot of Glazer. It was not good, Like you just gotta watch it. I cannot wait. Yeah, it's just wild to me. You've watched fourteen thirteen seasons of this show. You've watched five seasons of All Stars, six six seasons of All Stars.

You know what snatch game is.

Get a bunch of your friends together, brainstorm workshop, figure out how you're gonna kill the snatch game. Like it doesn't seem call mateo.

Yeah you're all happy with Mateo, Like why yeah, why wouldn't you work with someone?

But yeah, but I don't.

I think I get it because if I got on Survivor, I would not learn how to make a fire before I got and then everyone would be like why didn't you learn to make a fire, And I'd be like I didn't want to, Like I get it, Like I don't know if I would learn to sew, I don't know. Yeah, well that's why I can't fully juge. Just so learning to make a fire, I don't know.

Those are like, yeah, I get learning to make a fire's not that hard, but learning to sew seems very hard to me at least, but like, yeah, I don't know. It's just like figure out with your friends, like an accent, you can do a voice, like it's just you know. What's also tough is that you're not allowed to be any fictional characters. You have to be like real people, and there's just not that many real people that are that big of a character or that interest you know what I mean, Like, but.

You make them interesting because like I'm sorry, Adele is not like ha, you know, but Gingerminge killed.

Yeah, yeah, Adele's pretty funny.

But yeah, he say, like it's like when they do Gaga, when three of them do Gaga, Gaga's not really a big personality.

There's not like a thing where you're like, oh, that's but I believe that I can make Gaga fun. I do.

I think there's ways to make Gaga funny and silly and weird.

He's weird.

If you saw her Thanksgiving special or her banter, She's a fucking psycho. Her movements are nuts. Like, there are ways to do it. They're just like comedy is hard. I mean at the end of the day, yeah, of course.

Of course, but you also have to come in with multiple jokes.

You have to come in not just going, oh this person does this, you have to come in with multiple things that they do.

Anyway, I'm here as.

Your stating to be in the moment because RuPaul does lobby, lob him up, lob them up. You know, like, yeah, RuPaul is on your side. It hard Listen if any drag queens are listening to this, I mean, I think Shay listens.

Sometimes some other queens might listen. If you get on drag Race, I will be your snatch game consultant. I will help you figure something out. Please contact me DM me. My dms are open. Lisa, what were you gonna say? I'm well, not as good as this. So do you remember last year you're in a half quote whatever. A book came out.

Amy Beth Sall put it together and it was like thee hundred and fifty Funniest Girl Comics, and it was all these stories and drawings and it was like a big.

Notes on a bathroom the bathroom line or whatever. Yeah.

So I got to meet her, and as I said, the martinis were pouring, and I did say, I go. You know, when the book came out, I was a little bit like where am I and I got to kind of confront her and it felt funny. I said, that's very funny.

But I saw I knew some female comedians who spiraled that they were not in that book.

I know I was.

Some were not taking it well, no, and everyone was great. We were talking about all the artists, but I was like, you know, I did. I was like one hundred and fifty I didn't even make and she goes, I know, it was tough.

There's so many cool ones.

I wish this and that, and there were I mean there were like big names that don't do comedy at all, you know, like so well, we can't all be in everything. But it was just funny to be able to be like, oh, I noticed bitch and I did take note on a bathroom line that I was not in it.

But yeah, it was cool.

All these like Princeton people were at the I don't know, you're your friends with summer camp and college you guys keep Yeah, most of my friends I would say I met in comedy.

That's yeah, not all industry people. It was like lots of hours.

But because and you.

Guys might know this because you listen to our podcast, but I listened to all these people's podcasts, and so it is crazy to meet people and be like, well, I know you're in couple's therapy, so how's that going? Like I'm like, so you did antal with your boyfriend? I heard that, how did it go?

Like?

It is why you just know so much about all these loose people. They are guests on podcasts or you listen to their podcasts and you have to kind of keep it tight. But the Martinez very blunt. It was a blunt party.

Surprised that did not devolve into like a full orgy that sounds so crazy.

Not a full orgy, but definitely like we were all we had to like pull a person who could not stand. But we're all theater kids, so it was like eight of us trying to very one little man.

It was like it was make a gurney.

And if you guys don't know Cat Cohen Special, our amazing friend who did our theme song for this podcast. Henry Koperski is the musical director of that special. He plays the piano, so you get to see him sitting. He like co wrote the songs, so shout out to Henry as well. It was so looking like a Kendall fucking cutie and brought insomniac cookies.

That's a stock.

I used to live around a corner from one of those. He's so talented.

Yeah, guys, check out Cat Cohen special on Netflix.

I'm trying to think of his south By Southwest story. It is such a giant festival. But I truly I did.

Do a zoom.

I did do a zoom with Lisa by the pool. She was very living her best life.

Cool.

Yeah, working at a cabana pool is awesome. But I felt like all the other south By douches. We were all just like douche on our zoom calls at the pool. But it's, you know.

Well that's kind of good though.

I don't want to be somewhere where people are relaxing and I'm on a zoom call. Like I'd rather we all be on the fucking zoom calls.

We're all the worst people, you know, Yeah, we all just can't take a break.

Well, you know, it's you know, it basically goes elon Musk, the guys who found a Google Lisa trigger. I mean it's like this, these are the great tech minds that are at south By, so they need.

To know the audience. Are so many tech people. I did meet Bever's his name is John, but from Broad City.

Remember I know John Gemberling very well. We've known each other. Oh, oh amazing.

I don't know him at all, and I just went, I know you from television, points right at him.

But then we became friends. So that was he. And I met Danielle Schneider from Bitch. Oh yeah, she was yeuse because her husband goes there.

Yeah, and they brought their daughter, who had a giant bow and I got to be like you a Jojo Sewa fan and uh so I got to bond with their daughter.

Today.

They recently did a live show and Sydney came out on stage in New York to like, I think like a couple thousand people like the daughter like came out and did like a they do like reenactments of housewives and stuff.

We could do that on our podcast.

I think they would just be sad, but they do that on their podcast and it's funny. And I think the little girl like did a part and it sounded I don't I mean, I obviously wasn't there, but it sounded really cute.

So she wasn't mean age with.

A map, but yeah, I was like, I'm a Bravo girl and it was very thrilling to chat.

A little bit.

But it sounds like a lot of fun, not so great, and it's just a lot of us haven't seen each other. Like I didn't see any movies, I didn't go to any bars, I didn't go dancing. I sat in like the lounge and just like talk to everyone that I was so excited to see and our friends, and I want to give a shout out to I would say, one of the best photographers in the whole world, Mindy Tucker. Like I was not feeling my best. I didn't feel

No, you look awesome in her photos. She is. She is incredible.

She's you're on the East call my headshots of my first like six headshots before I moved to La.

She's she was invited to my.

Wedding, she just couldn't come because she was shooting another wedding. Like she's a friend of mine and I love it.

It was awesome to see.

Her and you get to catch up while she's shooting you.

And that was very truly the best She's in.

Between the falls. That was the big, the big thing for me, and I think I met some.

Listening in between the falls, the highlights in between falls, the Lisa trigger story.

Okay, but well listen, listen.

And I did have an espresso martini at the four seasons. Listen, I am I'm doing. Someone had a prettium, someone had a pretty am.

Well, let's get started, because this episode is a classic.

I'm so excited. We've wanted to do it for a very long time.

And happy porum to everyone, and let's get fucking started.

All right.

We are talking today about Control season five, episode nine, clearly a banger of a season. Lisa, this is our even episode from season five.

Wow. When I was going through, I was like, wait, we've done that long, We've done that.

I was like, damn, We've done a lot from this episode, I mean, this season. So we get an opening card on this episode that says, although inspired in part by a true incident, the following story is fictional blah blah blah. And I wonder why sometimes they have this card and other times they don't. We'll have to ask Neil, like, I wonder how much information, like what percentage of information has to be ripped in order for them to give you this little although inspired in part.

By I've actually never noticed that I have.

I've noticed it a few times, like sometimes they'll be like, it's like crazy to me, because it's like some episodes it's like this is Michael Jackson, this is Woody All and like you're not, like no, you're fooling no one, you know. And so I don't even know if those come with those. We'll have to see when we cover those.

And then he died in two thousand and six, a few years later. So I love this. So the little girl's like Grandpa who made the world.

It's a little bit too precocious almost, and he's answering her and it's really cute because he's like some people say, it's God, some people. And then we're sort of flashing on a man who's coming to the up escalator and he's like moaning in pain.

We don't know what's going on with him, and.

He's getting closer and closer to passing them, and the little girl's like, I think Bob the Builder made the world.

That's his job. And it's like, okay, cute little shout out to Bob the Builder.

And then right when the grandpa and the little girl are getting close to this man, the grandpa notices that the guy is covered in blood from like in his genital region, and he screams, Oh my god. And then the man stumbles back to the bottom of the escalator. And it's very dramatic and it reminded me of the subway stop. I think it's like Lexington in fiftieth or something where it's like just.

A million escalators.

You feel like you're coming up from the center of the earth, you know what I'm talking about.

Oh my god.

It's like I'm not even scared of heights, and I'm like, don't look back, it's like too many escalators and by Bloomingdale's.

Yeah, yeah.

So now we cut to CSU on the scene and I believe it's a CSU. Captain Judish Cipher on the scene again, and Marishka is questioning her dad and it's really cute and they kind of have like matching swoopy hair in it, and I really am loving it. And he tells Olivia the whole story, and then he says he called nine one one, and when she said, did he say anything, the guy said, he just kept saying it's a mistake. It's a mistake. And now Stabler is

Done done, and now on them. Baby. So it's one of those.

I think we've had more than one person get their dick chopped off, Like definitely, there was I think in one of the first episodes ever.

The pilot season one, Baby.

Yeah, yeah, he gets his uh dick, either dick's stash's or criminal yeah from Serbia or something. We've had some other pedophiles on the show that cast straight themselves to get out of like for parole reasons or something.

Yeah.

Yeah, but we've seen missing We've heard missing family jewels, puns from these guys.

Oh yeah, there's also one where it's like an old teacher that molested a bunch of the girls and they saw him in a hotel room.

They chop they castraight him.

Mmm.

So yeah, there's been some dicks. There's been a few cut penises on this show for sure.

So in the hospital, Gorman is sitting up in bed talking to the cops with one of these cartoony like all the way around the nog and bandages, which I just am always like what is that? What's happening? And he doesn't remember anything that happened. He just remembers stepping off the train onto the platform and then that was it, and he said everything else is a bore, and they go, well, you were.

Saying it was.

It's a mistake. It's a mistake. What did you mean, And he goes, I must have been delirious. The last thing I felt was something hitting the back of my head and then darkness. But he does remember, and suddenly he's like, I remember nothing, and then it's like, but I remember this very specific detail. He remembers an unhoused man in black rags ranting and about a Judas tree and other like religious stuff, and then he starts to get upset and is like I'm not a man anymore,

But Munch suggests that it might be part of a cult.

And of course he knows everything about history and is like Roman priests men used to get castrated for divine status. Like again, this guy doesn't seem happy that his penis is gone, right, he didn't see like, oh it was my it was my dick. Surgery went wrong. Oh no, Like he seems like he would like to have it back. So Daddy Craigan is like, so he was either snipped by a homeless guy or he had a voluntary penectomy. Not a word I get to use every day, and

So we learn something new every day.

The lowdown on Gorman is he's sixty two, single and rich. He retired at thirty and he invented the games where you play games on bottle caps underneath bottle caps, and Finn goes, I never went at that, and Munch is like, cause it's a scam dum dumb, Like it's a cute little interaction.

And then Munch obviously is.

On the net googling castration and finds some guy up in Riverdale who does this, and I keep thinking like, can you check the tapes, like where are the tapes from the subway? And then Craigan is like, did we get the tapes yet? And they're still waiting for them to be sent, So in the meantime he wants to keep everyone busy, so he's like, Ben's in his stable, or go check with CSU about this unhoused man.

Maybe that's a lead.

And then Munch and Finn go up to that dick chopper in Riverdale. So at the doctor's house, this is like a full just Red Herring is that is silly. He shows them where he cuts the dicks off and it's on his kitchen table, which is so nasty. But he's like, I still realize it first, and it's like, still you eat at the same place where you chop off peenies, but.

Like, to me, it's like, how badly do you need to chop your dick off that you're going to do it at some dermatologists, septometrists whatever. He is, Yeah, on a kitchen table, Like I'm just trying to understand, and it's hard for me.

Yeah, well, I'm sure it's like he just takes cash. You don't have to go to the doctor and deal with it. I don't know what people. Some people are probably I don't know why you want to get your dick cut off. I'm sure there's a fucking reddit subreddit about that. I really do think there probably is, and I will look for it. He shows Finn his license, and Fins like you're an out or Munch his license, and Munch is like, you're an allergist, and then he

I do it?

Like, so you know, it is a free country, I guess, although I still think, yeah, I don't know if you're allowed to do that with just a medical license. I think you have to have an like I don't think my mom can just perform open heart surgery because she's a pediatrician, you know what I mean. I think you have to have other certifications. But this guy doesn't seem to think so. So they show him Horus and he's like, I've never seen him before, and then it's like a

It's a lot of people.

And so then this side cop who's there grabs this unhoused woman and she's like struggling against him, and look who it is. It's Abigail Savage from Orange is the New Black, and she played the masturbator in Sugar and she goes on to become Sister Nina in later SVU episode. So she's an SVU champ and this is her first

And I love that.

So she tells them her name is Dot, and Olivia's like, did you see anyone come down here this morning? And She's like, one of my favorite names, Dot. Yeah, it is a cute name. I my friend has a Dot daughter, but she's Dorothy and she's actually Dorothy Rose, which I'm like, two golden girls might be overkilled, but Dottie's very cute. She says, I can't tell you. He'll cut my eyes out, and she explains that Samuel sees everything and that she saw him earlier. His hands were bloody and he said

I didn't notice that that's fucked up. There's so many people in this episode that are famous. It's graazy or like famous. To me.

I've like sat you know, like he's a seller person, so I've sat with him on many of occasions. Did not catch this. For one second I knew.

I was like, he's familiar. Who is that guy? And then I was like, oh my god, it's fucking Ben Bailey who used to follow me on Twitter and I have no idea why, but uh, he might not anymore anyway, So why would he unfollow you?

Did you guys fight?

No?

I don't know.

I thought he was one of those like Tay Diggs people that was just following a lot of people because we've never met, you know. But I always remember this city like this, like little unhoused city in the bowels of Grand Central that they're talking about, and I would always think about it when I road the subway. I'd be like, I wonder how far deep down is like the Grand Center, you know.

So I actually looked into it. And this is based on the so.

Called Mole people quote unquote, who live in an abandoned section of New York City subway system which is called the Freedom Tunnel.

And it's actually not under Grand Central.

It goes from Penn Station and it stretches up past Harlem, which is a lot of blocks that's like, off the top of it, eighty blocks.

What's fucked up and scary is when sandy or storms and rain happens, like what happens to these mole people.

Yeah, hopefully people come through and say, like there's a big storm coming like that.

I don't know, I mean, who knows.

But so there was a documentary about this in two thousand by Mark Singer called Dark Days, and it followed a group of people living down there. And then there was another book by tiun Votin called Tunnel People, and he lived with them for five months, and it's about all the inhabitants of the Freedom Tunnel. So there's more information if you want to learn about this, but this is based on like a real thing.

I also love that we're like being careful, I being like and our unhoused neighbors.

And then we're like and these mole people.

I know.

I well, that's why I said quote unquote, because that's like what they're called, Like that's what the documentaries call them and stuff, so you know. But then mole people also has a second definition because it's in like science fiction. There's something about mole people. So that's that's separate, that's

I don't know if we've talked about this, but have you seen the tweet Like Silence of the Lambs really ruined it for nice people and casts that need help pushing a couch into a truck?

Yes, so true.

So I can't hear the song American Girl by Tom Petty without thinking of somebody getting shoved into a truck. Yeah, like, because that's what she's listening to right as she pulls up.

Anyway.

Yeah, that's how we feel about stuck in the middle with you. You know that ear chopping moment in Reservoir Docs.

Yes, yes, I know the soundtrack. I've never actually seen that movie.

Oh good one. I know I've done it, and I know he's acting.

It's like Harvey Kaitel and that other guy at the tim Roth or whatever.

So good. I don't know.

I'm a huge Tarantino person. I met him one time and he got mad at me. Did I tell you?

Wait? Did you?

I escorted him on Conan and he was so nice to me, and then it was Christmas and when I feel like I've talked about this either on this podcast or another one. But when we got him down to the street level for him to leave his car was just like stuck in traffic and He's like, where's my car, Cara, And I was like, it's coming. It's like it's like a block away, like the guys. I'm on the phone

I'm really sorry he was, but he was nice to me. In the end.

It was fine, But what can I do. I can't move New York City traffic around thirty Rock, you know. Anyway, at Christmas anyway, they go into this bag that this mannequin is holding and we have found mister Gorman's family jewels or whatever they want to call it. They're his dick and balls are in this bag and suddenly a trash campfire blazes and Ben Bailey turns around and goes it's him. And it's like very cinematic, like.

In Jurassic Park. It's like when the t Rex shows up, like.

And Samuel is like up on some kind of high platform and he's like ah, and then they flash their flashlights on him and that like spooks him and he runs for it. Stabler chases him, sacks him. They take off his goggles and he's like in pain from the light of the flashlight and he's like begging them like, please don't take me into the light. Like, so this man has something going on and he's got like white, white, white, white,

And he says no. God sends his.

Arch angel who brings me offerings, and she was wearing a white hood and she cares is a shining sword. She cut the limb from the Judas tree, so hints, hints, hints all over the place from Samiel Hwang steps out of interrogation and talks to Benson and Stabler, and he's like, I think Sam. I think Sammy Sam has a genetic disorder called porphyria, which is light sensitivity and could be responsible for his abdominal pains and possibly his delusions as well.

That's the dream of mine. I wanna I wanna have a door guy and I want to be friends with him. Yeah, that'd be nice. And give him a nice Christmas present.

Oh cash, you're supposed to tip, I read.

I'm sure you'd give something else too, though, I'm sure you'd be like, I know your son like soccer.

Here's something I found on EDS.

Please you'd give one other thing besides the cash. So the guy he opens the apartment for Benson and Stabler, and when they get in there, it is full hoarders, like this guy has stacks and stacks of newspapers and magazines. It's really nasty looking. He's got toilet paper, like all this shit. So the doorman they're like, oh, does he have a woman in his life? And the Dorman's like, no, he's a confirmed bachelor. And I'm like, what a weird concept. I'm a confirmed bachelor.

I don't know. But they're like, that's weird that he's a bachelor.

Because Stabler flips open the first thing he sees and it's a photo album of a woman in a wedding dress, and so he's like, well, I see that he's been married. And then Live finds two more and realizes that all these women are wearing the same wedding dress and a dog collar. And Live sees one of the brides and is like, holy shit, I know this girl. She came into the squad four years ago and told me she'd been kept in a dungeon by some freak and forced

He just let her out. And Craigan asks if live checked it out, and she was like, there was nothing to check.

She just said it was a white, older male driving a dark Tudor like and he's like, you didn't buy her story, and she's like, I wish I had. And then Munch and Stabler are backing her up, being like, no, I remember her. She was drinking, drugging incoherent. Meanwhile, I don't remember people like, no, that's not true. I remember

I have.

The people she had romances with.

It's like high profile Moroccan architects or like you know, real estate people, you.

Know what I mean.

It was like never I mean maybe there were actors, but not in what I was reading about her, And I didn't do a deep dive. But she's like Brian Saftie. Yeah. I just think it's cool that she was like I wanted to be an actor and like, this is what means the most to me, and I didn't really need that other stuff, Like I don't think I could have done that stuff well and still done my craft well, which I think you can. But she didn't think she could, so she didn't do it. So she's in her shop

Ouch. And she's like, back then, women didn't have a choice. So she clearly has like a lot of resentment towards her daughter.

And they tell her, hey, guess what that story about her being kidnapped by a psycho and kept hostage was true, and she looked shocked, and she's like, oh my god, Like you can tell you can see the regret on her face. And she's like, she wrote me a letter about a month ago. I've got an address for her on the Lower East Side So now they're at her apartment Lower East Side and the door opens and it's Samantha Mathis and I recognized her from the photo, but

I grew up like watching her.

She also dated like tons of cool guys like Christian Slater, River Phoenix, like she was like a hot it girl and is still working constantly. And this is her first of three episodes of s View she's been on, and she always plays like a significant part, so she's an SVU legend. And she looks at Olivia remembers her immediately and is like pissed, like what the hell are you doing here? I remember you, And they're like, well, your mom. We talked to your mom. That's how we found you.

On like last time?

And then they mentioned that they know who the guy is, and she's like, oh my god, who is it? Like tell me everything, and they're like, well, we obviously can't tell you anything, but they need her alibi for the night that he was attacked, and she says, I was at an NA meeting. Olivia asks her about the details

Did I write that wrong?

Anyway, he called it his party something and it was a hell hole, And she said, I thought I was going to die there. I would have tried to kill him, but there was a combo lock on the door, so if I had attacked him, I would have been like stuck there forever, there were no windows, and it was like a cold and damp basement, and she heard chanting in a strange language, like some kind of Satan Tannic cult.

Well, anything sounds like a call if you don't know what the hymning is, if you're like lock in the baseman, just hear people, you know, all together humming, yeah, yeah, you know, oh yeah, I could get that guy who knew.

Where she grew up.

Maybe she didn't go to Bot mitzvas all the time, but in New York, Well she grew up in New York, right, you are you're avoiding about Mitzvah if you're not going to want in New York.

So they go to this temple where he had supervised this restoration, and they're talking to the rabbi and this man is played by Pierre Epstein, who you may also recognized as Charlotte's rabbi from Sex and the City.

He's in like three episodes of Sex and the City.

It when like during her conversion it yeah, and he's I've seen him and other stuff too, this man, and he's going on and on about oh Gorman, like we love him. He saved our temple, like we gave him on supervised access to the whole shool.

And then it's like uh oh.

Finn rolls in and he's got major info and he's like, I've been here before.

My parents brought me here.

It wasn't always a temple, it was a church, and it was a stop on the underground railroad. So it's like, now we know there are tunnels, let's get going. So downstairs we're in the tunnels. We've immediately got that ominous dripping noise that I talk about all the time, like drip, drip, You're always going to find something bad when you hear the dripping. CSU Captain Ciper's with them using a machine like which they used in another episode that we that

We got two cops.

I don't know they did not give these guys enough direction because I'm watching these two cops just like very casually sledgehammer a wall. They didn't seem like they had much urgency to their mission. But they finally get through and inside it's like a nightmare cell, but it's not unlike.

Things we've seen before.

There's like a bucket toilet, you know, a dirty fridge and microwave, a bed, like an old ass TV with bunny ears, so like we've seen these kind of cells before where unfortunately men are always holding women. And then they turn the light on and that's when they notice a girl in a bron underwear just chained to the wall, which is super fucked and there is a tunnel exit that they find that leads right to the street.

So this is like a perfect setup for a psycho.

He's got his own entryway to go in, bring these girls, do what he wants with them, and then bring them out. And obvious when he was discovered, he came back and bricked up this wall with his last victim inside it, which is so horrifying that he was just gonna leave her there to die. Well, yeah, because it adds to it, because that's the thing, like he is, he is releasing

But I it's just it's all fucked. Yeah.

I think maybe he was just like scrambling because now he knows the cops are eventually going to find out what's up with him.

Yeah.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, Like why can't you just make the room nice? Like I don't get it, Like you can't just put them on toilet in there that flushes. It's just so annoying. I guess the flushing is annoyed.

Well, but that's a whole and that's a whole plumbing issue. But like, yeah, I get why it has to be the worst possible way to live. Yeah, yeah, it's horrific, like a pillow would kill you.

Like I just I don't get it right.

Right, And Munch finds all this guy diaries too, because of course all these psychos they diary and they fucking chronicle every awful crime that they do because I don't know what they think. They're like Stephen King of their own crimes. And when we are back at the precinct, we find out that the victim that they found is dehydrated and pretty sick, so they won't be able to talk to her for a while, but it sounds like

And Stabler's like, yeah, this.

Guy is a collector, like he collects toilet paper, magazines, women, and this very much. If you haven't watched Dexter new Blood and you are planning to watch it, please fast forward thirty seconds. This reminds me of this guy in Dexter new Blood who is collecting women.

He kills them and then he like embalms them.

So he can collect them in literal trophy cases, like he's collecting women.

So one of the wildest twists, Like that's the thing.

Like Dexter new Blood definitely had moments where I was taken.

Out or didn't love it or was it and then but always.

So twisted, twisted and good and pushes it to the limits.

And that kill Room was so good. It's just I love it. And we'll see, We'll see what happens next season.

You know, Michael Shall has a concert with his band March twenty second at zebulon Do we like the music?

I don't know, but I'm going okay.

So liv notices as she's going through the pictures of the bride, She's like, hold on a minute. The dungeon that we just discovered has stone walls because it's a basement, and the wedding photos here are taken against a plaster wall, so uh, he must have brought them somewhere else to marry them. Like, and then in walks Lauren White, who is a recurring character, but I believe this is her first episode, and she is she knows Elliott, and they're

And she said, he took me to a ratty hotel.

The manager saw and Sir said if I screamed, he'd kill my family. So, you know, typical stuff we hear all the time that he's going to kill my family. And he called the room the honeymoon suite. There were candles, flowers, cheap champagne, and then he took pictures and told her that they were man and wife. He made a toast and then said it was time to consummate the marriage, and he raped them. So Hillary remembers hearing bullhorns like

So they go to the Lydia Hotel and the desk clerk like.

Wants a bribe, and instead he gets a headlock from Finn, which is another fun I like when Finn takes matters into his own hands.

He's like, I'm not giving you twenty dollars.

I'm going to put you in a headlock, and then he the guy is like yeah, Gorman's well. They show him a picture of Gorman and he's like, yeah, he's here, but he's busy, and so they run up there. When they bust open the door, Olivia is standing over Gorman's dead body, bloody in the bed or maybe on the ground, and Stabler is like what the fuck, and Live is like he was dead when I got here.

And it's sketchy.

It is like they purposely the show makes it sketchy, like lives by herself, like why wouldn't she have called for backup? You know? Like then she kind of walks out of the room, like I don't want to talk about it with you anymore.

They can make it as sketchy as they want, But I have no doubt in my mind that Benson did not kill this guy.

I wouldn't, of course.

I'm just pointing out the devices they're using to make you try to doubt Benson that maybe she feels so bad about her mistake that she fucking stabbed this guy.

Right.

So, top of act three, the corner is packing up Gorman's bod and Munch is giving us like the whole rundown. He's been dead less than an hour of a single stab wound to the chest with a smooth blade and it might be the same one that was used to cut his Wiener off, and Stabler's like, you said, Wiener, I wrote Dick's so many times that I was trying to think of different things to write.

But now I just want a hot dog.

I'm sorry, and I know you like a big beef dog, as you said on A four proud a previous episode.

I like a big beef dog.

So now Stabler and Benson are alone and he's like, are you protecting her?

So Stabler doesn't think she did it.

He thinks she's covering for Hillary, and she goes, I left Hillary at her mother's house a couple hours ago, and I don't need your interrogation, Stabler, you know. And he's like, I don't get why you didn't come back to the squad and she's like, look, I had a hunch that it was one of these hotels, kind of like you guys came up with.

I checked five hotels. This was number six.

And Stabler's like, you did this all without backup, and he's pissed, and Elliott goes to her, You're out of control, and liv goes, I never had control with this one, remember, and I didn't even realize. I always think when I think about this episode that it's called control because of the way this guy was controlling them, But it's also about Olivia and of the control she has over the situation and her role so interesting when.

They always think of well, I think that's what the Internet wants me to do. But I just think about the Leonardo DiCaprio meme now where he's pointing. Have you ever seen the one where he gets up like he's the Howard Hughes point No. Oh, yeah, it's a fun meme, And it's like usually like when you hear the title episode be said, oh.

And you're like, oh, yes, is that not from Gatsby?

Once upon a Time in Hollywood? We made it back to Tarantino. I think I have seen that for sure. So Olivia is beating herself up about this mistake and Elliott is like, get over it, and I just think it's we always talk about cops fucking up cases and a lot of the research that we do, and like, I kind of like how in this show they at least show the cops fuck up, you know, Like I know it's a fantasy where the cops are totally not really how they are, but it's also how they're really

Finn speaks that language.

So it's like a lot of them are just like telling their story and unfortunately Finn reveals to Olivia that all of these women were taken after Hillary, which causes her to feel even more guilt because every woman that's sitting in front of her would not have had this experience if Olivia had believed Hillary and they had investigated the crime.

Yeah, it sucks.

The thing is, it's like everyone makes mistakes. These mistakes have really long line, huge consequences.

Yeah, so this kind of breaks Olivia.

She goes to her locker and starts packing her shit, which I don't think we've seen her do before. Like, I don't think we've seen her almost quip before. And Craigan confronts her and she's just like I can't do this anymore. And he's like trying to explain, like, look, this guy picks women who no one would believe, Like he picks women specifically that he can just let go and leave back on the street and knows that no

And you've never heard that from Olivia before.

I've never heard her like blame her mom like that before, and it's weird to hear her like vict and he's like, since when do you victim blame? And she's like, my mother was drunk when she was attacked, and so was Hillary. And I'm like, you know what, so am I most

Now just a full time informat. Yeah.

He's like, oh, hey, old cop friends, let's talk keep things dark. And they show him this photo array of all these brides and say which one is your angel?

And he id's don't done. Hillary.

And so now we're at this very upscale maud apartment of Juliet Barclay and she's in a silky PJ in robe and she's got a view of the Empire State Building and the Chrysler Building, so not bad. And Hillary is there with some pjs onto more of like a hippie hippy silky. Yeah, hers are more. No, Hillary's are more like she got them on a trip to Tibet, you know what I mean. That's like what the vibe was for me. But they're not as silky as her mom's.

You can't do this to her.

She's been through enough, so I'm kind of it's nice to see that these two have kind of reconnected. And then Juliet confesses to the murder. She goes, take me, I killed the bastard. I had to protect my daughter. So they arrest Juliette while Hillary is protesting and like, you can't take her, you can't take her. So now Juliet is in interrogation, out of her silky robe.

PJ.

Look. I don't know if they got her a sweatshirt or whatever, but she explains that Horace Gorman murdered my daughter's soul. I did what any mother would do. And they want to know how she knew where to find Gorman, and she said, last week, Hillary saw him leaving his apartment building and she was shocked. So she said, so I followed him for a few days and then I castrated him at the subway station. I didn't want to kill him in case he was holding another victim smart

When he let her in, she says she stabbed.

Him, and she goes, there was so much blood, and then she says she threw the knife down the sewer grade a few blocks away.

So she's got a pretty good storyline up.

Now we're in Judge Petrovsky's chambers with the Dream Team. Okay, it's Petrovsky, it's Casey Novic, and it's Cyndi Lauper's husband Lionel Grainger.

Love this.

So Granger is arguing that Juliet's confession is a Peyton violation because and the Peyton violation is essentially what we've talked about on this podcast before. The cops are not allowed to without a warrant, arrest someone in their home.

Thank you so much for coming out. And then in.

The courtroom, Novak is making her argument that even though Gorman Novak's wearing a wild outfit in this episode, it's such a long skirt, she looks like a Hasidic Jewish wife.

I don't think I noticed it.

Oh it was like black and then like a long black pleated skirt to below the knee. I was like, Casey, this I think they later let her dress a little hotter.

Because I'm also extra sensitive to Orthodox outfits, and i always feel like I'm dressed like an Orthodox Jew or like a Menna night on a night out. So I do feel sad I didn't notice.

Meanwhile, you never are, but I'll just say it was just very black.

Pilgrimy like, you know.

Sort of we like some skin, we want skins. Yeah, she just usually is dressed a little bit more.

She that's all.

And so she's making the argument that even though Gorman was a monster who absolutely should have been sentenced to life in prison and died in prison, she cannot prosecute him because Juliette Barclay went vigilante and no one is.

Above the law. Murder is murder, no matter who or why.

And you know, we all know our girl Casey takes that shit very seriously.

And then Grainger is like, I agree with everything.

Miss Novak is saying, here's the thing, we don't know who killed him. There's another suspect, someone with means, motive, an opportunity, and that person is Detective Olivia Benson. This up is so fucking wild. This guy's fully just trying to frame Olivia for this not really, you know, I don't think he would ever say that she really really did it, But he's trying to create reasonable doubt because she did have all this access and it really could have been her.

On the timeline.

Novak objects as like objection in the whole court room is like hub hub hub hub. While we're on Olivia's face as we go out to commercial coming back act for at the precinct, Novak's like, I know what he's doing. He's trying to create reasonable doubt. Why don't you just admit, go on the stand, admit you screwed up and went to the hotel alone, but testify that you didn't kill him. And then Novak walks away and lives like she didn't

So now we're at the antique shop.

This is another episode where there's just so much going on, so many locations at the antique shop, where with qut o'hallerin rip and he's there scanning knife after knife of all these antiquity all these antique knives for blood, and he's striking out.

He's like, sorry, I haven't found anything.

Then Finn comes out of nowhere with some Indiana Jones knife that he found under the sink and boom, it's been cleaned, but it definitely has blood on it and there's some blood in like the carvings on the handle. Back in court, Granger is still trying to implicate Benson in his cross examination of Hillary, but Hillary's like, my mom couldn't have done it, And when they confront her with the whole knife thing, she confesses she's like, I did it. I stole the knife from my mom's store

Goes, the whole milk.

Yeah, a whole milk in a latte, that's like all that's like tea that sounds like a fart. And so she goes, that's what you ordered at the coffee shop when your mother murdered Gorman.

We saw you.

We can't arrest your mom now because of Double Jeopardy, and Hillary's like, I don't mind going to jail for castrating him. So we know Hillary's the one that did castration, but we think now we know that her mom's the one that did the killing. She followed him for days to kill him, but he saw her on the subway. She confronted him and said he was she was going to tell the whole world what he did. And he said go ahead. No one's gonna believe a whoring junkie.

Ugh.

She hits him and drags him back to the platform, and she goes, I had the perfect chance to kill him, but I realized castration would make him suffer even more. And then she just said I couldn't let my mother go to jail. And then Novak was like, yeah, but she belongs there, and no one gives you the right to lie or your mother to murder, and Samantha Mathis goes, well, he'll never torture another woman again, will.

He seems more important?

Yeah, and that's dick wolf Baby.

I've said this once and I'll say it again. I am pro vigilante justice. Yeah, thank you, Kara, and I think you'll all be saddened by how much overlap with the real thing I have.

I am going into this totally blind. I know nothing about this case, so I'm excited.

All right, we'll see you guys soon. Okay, So this case I've actually been wanting to cover for a very very long time because it has one of my favorite slash least favorite things, which is cops fucking up.

Over and over and over again.

And so we have an Olivia Benson moment here where all these women were not believed. And so I've wanted to cover this because not that I get glee or satisfaction, but I do. I'd like to talk about why cops suck. Yeah, I do. I wish I wasn't true.

I wish we did the Alaskan butcher Baker butcher guy or whatever.

And it was like one of the only.

Reasons they believe the girl they found there was because she was like naked in the fucking middle of the highway with like a tire iron around her neck or something like that. It's like that's but they're like, well, that does look kind of weird. I guess we can believe.

This girl, you know, Like, yeah, I mean the fact that they didn't like search thoroughly at Kemper's house and there was a head in his closet, like, oh.

My god, I would I wish it wasn't true, but it does. You know.

I like having ammunition for myself when I have to get into arguments or any sort of situations out in the world, to like have these cases to be like, no, they fuck up constantly, and let's stop calling them heroes and giving them parades.

Like do your fucking jobs.

So anyways, this happens in the suburbs of Syracuse, New York. The criminal here we're talking about is John Jamelski. He's a retired handy man and he was a well known eccentric, so a freak. Okay, he was known as a resident crank and freak, a Republican who rarely missed an election. So I don't know, he's like a Karen you know, junk hording like Gorris Horman.

He was. He was very into pigeon feeding. Oh Jesus, yeah.

You're if you feed pigeons in Venice, I don't care where you're doing it. You are feeding rats, you are feeding flying rats. I do not think it's cute to put bird seed on yourself in San Marco Piazza in Venice and have a bunch of rats eat it off of your jacket. And I stand by that.

No one just doing well in life, is, you know, summoning pigeons.

It's not happening.

And so yeah, the town thought he was irksome, but like he was seldom menacing, like no one, no one was scared of him. But we're also not talking casual junk hoarding. We're talking. The police when they got into his home found thirteen thousand bottles.

Oh my god. And it's a well to do suburbs.

So like when the crimes came out, it was kind of like shocking. I know what you're thinking, Cara. I know what you're thinking. You don't have to be get We're on the zoom. I see your face. Tell them.

I was just gonna bring up when I moved Lisa out of her LA apartment, I did find no, nowhere close to thirteen thousand, but I found probably two dozen water bottles with one zip left.

Yeah, it's comforting, just drewn about.

Yeah, I'm right now, I'm looking at four Yeah, okay, well then so yeah, getting better and better, oh, getting better, and they all have just a little bit.

My car is filled with bottles. I don't know what it is.

I'll bring it up in therapy next week, but I yeah, I don't know why I need bottles around me in my car, just crunching around. So this guy, you know, we're talking about what a weirdo, what a junk guy, or like what?

He is a horrific man.

He kidnapped five women and girls and kept them as sex slaves and a homemade bunker. The concrete bunker was two rooms and barren. He built it in nineteen eighty eight and it was linked to his basement by his seven foot long tunnel underneath his backyard. And they later did ask the man who delivered all the concrete, like, what did you think was happening? He's like, I don't

You're not going to register? Yeah, kid, that's getting Yeah, Hi, I'm here to permit my rape. Dungep what's the fee? Can I write a check?

And his go to answer if anyone asked about it, he said it was a storm shelter. Anyone that has crawled through it. Post investigation everything said, you know, it's windowless, dank and claustrophobic and utterly terrifying. So it was a twelve by twelve room and it was eight feet high, and there was graffiti. I wonder who he got to do some graffiti art down there.

He's like, I have a banksy down there.

So just so and again like disgusting, there's no comforts. There was a strip of foam for sleeping, a television set and a bible, and then the second room had a portable toilet and then a bathtub that was filled with.

A garden hose.

And the Daily News called him the Dungeon Dragon, which sounds like something that Jared would like to be called in.

No, and also that's too cool of a name, Like, yeah, you're not the dungeon Dragon. Yeah, Like that's gonna make him sound like he's dungeons. Dragons aren't real, So that's like, all right, well we got Karra while and out. I just don't I don't like giving somebody like a name like Ted Bundy was like the Mountain Murderer. Like, it's not like a cool thing to give someone a nickname.

I agree, agree, agree, So.

Basically, he would snatch women off the streets over a span of fifteen years from eighty eight to two thousand and two, and literal snatching okay, this isn't hyperbole.

Snatching.

He would cruise in his Mercury comment and seeking women from the wrong side of the tracks. So again, picking women that no one would believe or care about or miss. He imprisoned them, raped them, and he kept one of them as long as three years. The victim's age range was about fourteen to fifty three years old.

Three teenagers and two women.

He picked up runaways, atticts, young girls with no strong anchors. His wife lived upstairs the whole time, just like Fritzel. Yeah, the wife lived upstairs the whole time he had victims. And not only was she just upstairs chilling, she had cancer. And he started doing this after he couldn't have sex with his wife who had cancer.

So he that's like the catalyst.

So if his wife didn't have cancer, so let's blame this cancer woman. I mean, now this is from the Daily News, so I don't know how credible the Daily News is or not. But in the eighties it said that he had an open affair with a teenager who he brought to family functions as his wife sat by awkwardly.

Shit, Like I have had a fan, I've had a family member bring a affair to a family event but their wife was not there. We all were there and we're like, this is your friend, but the wife was not there, which is.

Even fuck because now that's implying and implicating all of you. Now you have to hold this your family members lie. Because we had a friend who would always cheat all the time, and I had to have kind of a u an intervention with him because I was like, it's not fair. We're hanging out with this girl constantly want us to be friend with her, and yet we know you're openly cheating on her, and it's not fair to us. Like I don't like to be put in this position.

He goes, oh you knew about that.

I go, that's what I'm trying to tell you, Like here lying to your friends and we all know and we talk to each other and it's fucked up.

But whatever, people have problems.

So anyways, and this relationship with the teen I guess inspired his new kidnapping rape hobby.

I don't know.

His wife did eventually die of cancer, and then he continued the crime, So you can't really blame because you can't fuck your cancer written wife. And then when she's dead and you could cheat on her. Also, you're already having affairs. I mean, I don't know why I'm asking. I don't know why I'm asking this guy to like a moral high grounder, makes sense in any of his

I already mentioned that.

I don't know, I mentioned it again, and like in the show, he determined when the women could bathe, sleep, and when they were forced to have sex. He had total control over their lives, said County Sheriff Kevin E.

Walsh.

He also said that in his forty years on the job that this is the most bizarre case and that seems to make light of what happened. Bizarre isn't the word that I did. Yeah, how about horrific? How about yeah, humanity at its bottom?

Yeah? Bizarre? You know what's that's not bizarre? Right? Yeah?

In elementary school, we our principal's name was doctor mister bizarre. I don't know, well, I don't know. I was about to say doctor. He was just a mister, mister mister bizarre. I love that. That's a fun I think he was a good principal. I didn't really have any issues with him anyways. But after he would get tired of each woman, he would blindfold them and return her home and of course did the classic if you go to the cops, I'll kill you and kill your family and whatever threats.

The letting go. I'm curious, yeah, because it is a risk.

Yeah for some people like Ted Bundy. The thrill was all in the murdering. And I think this man is a rapist and he does he Yeah, he just a lot of times I think that a rapist will kill just to cover their tracks.

And I guess he thought, I'm scary enough. If I scare them, they'll never go to the cops. Yeah.

So September nineteen eighty eight, he lured fourteen year old victim into his car. Her family reported her missing, but then they were shocked when she just came home in nineteen eighty nine. So the victim later said that he threatened to kill her brother, so she lied and said she had run away from home. And then in nineteen ninety five, he kidnapped his next teenage victim, so there was long breaks.

It was another fourteen year old victim.

She was held for two years, and when she went home she told her mother, but was so terrified that she didn't report the crime.

Wow.

In nineteen ninety seven, he abducted his third victim, a fifty three year old Vietnamese immigrant, and she was held for five months. She went to the police but said cops were skeptical of her allegations and only made a cursory investigation.

I wonder if.

There was like a language barrier two and the cops were just like, we don't know what you know what I mean, like in Syracuse, Like I don't know if they got like a Vietnamese interpreter, you know.

Yeah, oh, or they were a racist too. You're giving him a more.

Credit than I think they did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just in the episode there was a Cambodian immigrant, you know, So it's like, yeah.

Yeah, this is really a lot of parallels to the episode where like very closely Neil Behar I think found this information and a gave it a close close rewrite.

So in two.

Thousand and one, his wife died and he grabbed his fourth victim, who was a single mother who was twenty six years old at the time. And for me, I'm like, what happened to the kid? She's a single mom.

Yeah.

She hurried to the police after she was released after two months, and she didn't know his name or address, and since she was blindfolded, like she didn't have the information that they needed, but did give a very helpful tip. She told them the car was a nineteen seventy five Mercury comment. Okay, so there was one in the area. Yeah, but it was someone else's. His was in nineteen seventy four.

Like what the fuck, Oh my god, they.

Would just believe this eyewitness account of a nineteen ninety five and it was a ninety four, like lazy, lazy, And at this point he was sixty seven, and so he was popping viagraa daily to maintain an obsessive rape regime. October two thousand and two, he took his next victim, a sixteen year old who he called Mika. He got caught because of this victim. She was sixteen years old.

I'm surprised he's parting with cans and bottles. I thought he was collecting them, that's I know. Oh my god, he had so many.

It was his like main was collecting cans and bottles, and I've been making money off of them and hoarding them. I just I just don't get how I get it because the cops suck. But like to have people that are this dirty and careless and gross to be able to get away with such like horrific rhymes for so long,

Yeah, Like, let's hut the bottle though it's so ingrained to try to find like an excuse for like a fellow man, like I really do think that. How do you want to find goodness in someone that kidnapped and raped five people? Like I don't get it.

Yeah, built a bunker, calculated, held for months, threatened.

Yeah, we didn't just like.

He also didn't just like transform his basement, like he dug a tunnel every day. That man went in and dug a fucking tunnel and was like this is for my rape dungeon, like every day, like he was committed to this.

And this bottle guy's like, I feel bad for him? What about the good parts of his personality? Like what the fuck are you even talking about?

Yeah?

Why In the days after his arrest, he really didn't deem any of his behavior wrong and thought the sex was consensual. But if it's consensual, why do you need to lock someone up? Like what are we what is happening? But didn't Fritzel say something like that too. He was kind of like my daughter wanted it or I needed to do it to keep my daughter like safe from the rest of the world.

Like they all have fucking some wacko idea.

Also, in the days after the rest, three other women came forward to say they two were being held hostage and sexually abused in the bunker, which leads to the question of whether the police did all they could to stop and prevent these crimes. Two years before he was apprehended,

The cops say.

They couldn't do much because she didn't know where or by who, And it's like, yeah, you're supposed.

To figure that out.

You're expecting a kidnap victim to give you the address, Like, what are you talking about. Also, what I think hindred the case was there's a six foot fence that was built around his property by a developer who owned nice houses around his shittys house with all this junk and cans, and so they it made the neighborhood look bad. So these developers built a fortress around his house so no one could see what he was doing. So it was

Jake Jamalki or what are John whatever his name is.

He's a very controlling, very manipulative, and very smart guy.

He knows that legally.

He's done something wrong, but I don't think in his heart he really thinks he's done anything wrong. So that was the district attorney. That's that Jamalski took a plea agreement, and because of that, it didn't include charges of rape, even though it like it is rape, but he didn't want to be charged for rape because he didn't believe it. So he took this plea deal because he's still going to be there for life. So it's like, yeah, it's kind of like if no one has to take the stand,

If you don't have to put the woman through testifying, I guess that's worth it. Yeah, but I obviously understand like the disappointment of not being charged with things that you obviously did, and it would probably be like per rape as well.

You know, it would be a lot of charges. But after months and months he did admit. He's like, well, I did some things wrong, and the judge greed obviously, So yeah, he pled guilty, and at his sentencing he cried and asked for leniency and said he was sorry and like about how it affected, but the judge did not give a fuck. Love Judge Anthony Alloy, who rejected his requests and said that he hoped that he died in prison. So I love that, And the judge said

Like?

Is he waited for this moment to fucking rip at someone?

Yeah?

I think they probably write their comments out right. I don't probably do. I think they probably write their like final comments. I don't think that many judges are like good at imbrov or Exteparani's speaking.

But maybe he so.

The judge gave him eighteen to life, but could have given him one hundred and twenty five years. But he took the plea, but it's still eighteen to life. He had a possibility for parole in twenty twenty one. That's a tease. Stay tuned, give me a second. So he's like eighty six around twenty twenty one. Part of the plea, though, is that his assets are to be used to compensate his victims. And you're thinking of this junkyard fool, where

Wow, that's great. Yeah, that's like silver little silver lining.

There's also rumor that he inherited money, and he also got a giant payday when the developers bought the land around his place to build luxury homes. So that's like where his money came from. So the proceeds from the house sale also went to the victims, and the bunker was demolished, but so that money also went there. He is now currently at the Clinton Correctional Facility in Dana Mora, New.

York, Oh. Escape from Dana Mora Baby.

Yes, and you mentioned that case in this episode about the wall, the empty wall, and like what's.

Going on else? Yeah, So I.

Found an article from February ninth, twenty twenty one about his virtual parole hearing that happened December fifteenth, twenty twenty.

They denied his parole. Of course, he still.

Denies he did anything wrong and refuses treatment. And that's basically it, like they need you to learn a lesson. The were Parole Board ruled that his release would be incompatible with the welfare of society. Also, after being in prison for eighteen years, he did state I had a bunker,

That's so fucking dexter new Blood, because the guy would get these girls that were runaways and be like, you want a nice warm bed, you want a bottle of champagne and some strawberries, And they were like they thought they hit the fucking jackpot.

Oh my god.

He also made requests in his official prison record to state certain things, and none of them really I don't understand. But he wanted everyone to know that he gave his victims scented candles.

Wow, oh thanks for that.

Yeah, and that he's like, oh, and I still have contacts with the victims once they left, like we're friends.

Like he truly does not pe a person, like there's nothing really to it. I'm not. I'm not the bottle dispense guy. I don't see much good, monk.

The only thing he closely got to admitting was that maybe he caused them direct harm, and he said, I probably inadvertently. Probably, yes, yes, I could have talked them into returning to their families sooner. But when it did happen, you know, they gathered their stuff together, we jumped in a car and I drove them to their families like what, Sorry, I make him sound like a valley girl if you google him?

Why would you? Why would you?

Fucking why is there a lock on the door done like, you know, to protect them?

You know it's it's yeah, yeah, it's it's fucking insane, insane.

It's nonsense. But that's what I got for you, guys. I hope you hated every second of it. And I hate him and I hate the police, but I'm impressed with Dick Wolf and Sview and Neil Baert to create such an intertwined episode.

Yeah, thank you so much Lisa for all of that. And stick around because we have an amazing interview coming up, you guys. I was truly gagged when this guest said that they would do our podcast. She has a resume that you would not believe. I grew up watching her. She was the star of movies like Pump Up the Volume. She was a voice Infermully, she was in the original Little Women and American Psycho, and recently had a recurring

Yay.

Oh my gosh, Samantha, we cannot believe we're talking to an SVU queen.

Oh my goodness, thank you. I guess I have been on the show a few times.

Yeah, and you're never a tiny part.

In fact, I remember when I watched Swimming with Sharks, that the most recent one you did. When I saw your name in the credits and then the way that they were sort of like not featuring you at the beginning, I was like, oh, well, now I just know she did this, Like I know that she's involved, because they're not bringing Samantha Mathis in to just be an assistant that I see in one scene, or like not an assistant, but like a side character that I see in one scene.

Oh well, I suppose that's just how it goes on Law and Order. You know, if a certain level of actors on the show, they are either a perpetrator or victim.

Yep.

Since we started with that episode, the Swimming with Sharks, I really love this scene where you have all these potions and bottles behind you. Did it look as pretty in person or was this just a set and movie magic.

Oh no, it was actually really beautiful. Yeah, I know, they they surprised me. I mean, not that they wouldn't have incredible sense, but yeah, I walked in there and I was like, oh, nice, nice lab, very very free, so many different color potions.

Yeah.

Yeah, Well, and then my thing that I just need to say, you're very very lucky.

And I don't know if you know this.

You got to work, you got you were there for the Stabler years, the Amorrow years, and the Kreesi years, So you got to work with each of the Hunk detectives, which not very many people can have had time with each of those men, so kind of thrilling.

Do you have a favorite?

Oh golly, I think they're all hunky and delicious. I'm just lucky to keep being asked back over the years.

Yeah, So, how did like, how did your SVU like journey start? Like when you did Control season five, the show's like sort of on a roll, maybe not quite as well known as it is now, Like did you watch it in advance or were you like, yeah, do this or you know, was what was the vibe with that one?

I'm pretty sure at that point Warren Light had been on the show, and you know, Warren was on it and then he stepped away from it, and then he came back to it. So I'm pretty sure because Warren and I had met when he was looking to produce another play he'd written after Sideman and then pivoted to Law and Order. So I'm pretty sure that's when when I was asked to do it. But you know what, with COVID in the last two years, my memory is just I know, so what is time? Who was I

That's fine, that's plenty of people. But plenty of.

People say but like, it is obviously a notch in any actors out to be on the mother Ship or any one of the Law Orders. It's like, as particularly if you're a New York actor, which I've now been for going on thirteen years, it's like, you can't be a New York actor and not get on one of the Law and Orders.

It's just it's required.

How was the wedding dress photo shoot?

I wonder if they do you think they photoshopped it? Or do you think did they make you guys like put on wedding dress.

I found it for you. I found there's you and.

Oh my god, oh my god, wow with the dog collar on. Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure they put that wedding dress on me. I'm pretty sure that's the real deal. Yeah.

I love that because you're all wearing the same one. So many actresses must have had to pop into that thing for a quick photo shoot.

They probably had it cut down the back and they just slipped it on each of us. Yeah, and then like took like grip clips and just closed it up on the back.

Yeah, like when you're shopping for a real wedding dress.

Totally.

So okay, that's so.

Funny, But so can can I ask more about Jacqueline Bessett, Like what was it like working with her?

Like I was in silk pajamas.

I like, there's a scene where you both are in silk robes and I really must have been maybe fun Oh my god.

I mean it was just the whole time was just like pinch me. I can't believe I'm acting, but Jacqueline is set playing her daughter. She's so classy and beautiful and just a total total professional and a class act a real you know, example of someone who's had incredible fame and and it's just a grounded good actress.

Yeah, amazing.

Your episode Reasonable Doubt was pretty star studded too.

You had you There was a bit a lot of guest actors in it. Did you guys fraternize enjoy each other?

Reasonable Doubt was the one where I was playing a version of me affair.

I was like the Woody Allen episode.

Oh my god.

Yeah, Bradley Winford and and and Jeffrey and and and Celia Keenan Bulger, who's like such a genius theater actress.

Yeah, that that was a ridiculous one. There were definitely some fun days and that, you know they have. Have you guys ever visited this set?

Yeah, we started this.

We started this podcast in COVID, so we're hoping that's a future visit.

We fan we want to find a bad body.

Well, you know, you should go. Warren Light's on Twitter a lot, so you know, maybe you should get on Twitter and just let him know that we did an interview and at him and see if he responds.

But so yeah, there's like uh uh an area along hallway with everyone's dressing rooms.

So that was a fun episode to just you know, lots of like being in the hallways and going in and having chit chats and as people do when you're shooting and you're in between scenes. But that was definitely a star studed collection of people in the hallways.

Yeah, and you got to do a scene in the courtroom, which is kind of one of the iconic SVU moments.

Do they like, is everyone really sitting there or.

Do they cut the Yeah, film it in sections.

It's okay, wow.

I mean they film in one direction and then they film in the other, but everyone's there. Yeah. I mean, you know sometimes they'll excuse someone for turnaround purposes. Do you guys know what that means? Like there's a certain amount of time that they have to give us off between when we finish at the end of the day and when we come back the next morning, so you know it's possible that, Like, I mean, they definitely shoot

Yeah, so you did this episode control in season five, and then you did Reasonable Doubt in season fifteen, so like ten years later, and then Swimming with the Sharks was six seasons later. Have you noticed, like I know, if you don't remember, it's fine, but like, have you noticed like changes in the show every time you go back, like anything that like rings different, like the feeling on the set or anything, or every time you go back, is it like I'm back the same again.

I really, it's just like if.

I remember my lines, that's really where all my memory goes to.

So I can't I can't really say any particular change.

I mean I would imagine. I guess the show has just grown more and more in its success. But it is one of those shows where the crew has been on it forever, you know, So you come back into the into the makeup and hair room and it's like, oh my god, I haven't seen you in six years. Yeah, you know, maybe the Croft service table is a little bit bigger than it was in two thousand and five. That's possible.

We've heard good things. We've heard good things. We threws, we heard there's fresh juice.

Oh yeah, oh yeah. Look, you got to keep your cast and crew healthy and happy. When you're pulling twelve fourteen sixteen hour days, twenty to twenty six episodes a year, like ten and a half months out of the year, you got to keep people well fed. So yeah, they got some juice.

How's the schedule for billions? Is it as grueling as like a Law and Order schedule?

I mean, any one hour series is going to be is going to be long days. So yeah, you know they're they're usually for a lady in particular. You know, it's a fourteen hour day, so they're long days. But that's another you know, it's a very successful show. They take excellent care of everyone. Everyone's very well looked after, so they're long days.

But we know, Dan Soder, is that impressive to you?

That is super impressive to me. Dan.

We're we're both stand up comedians and we were in New York for many years and so we just I was at the Comedy Cellar with Dan for a lot of years, Comedy Fest, Dance Soda.

Sweet. He's such a great He's such a great guy. We love him.

All of your co stars would be good on SVU Oh my god, I would love some Gamati on.

Totes. What do you think that Asia Kate Dylan could play on Order SVU. I'd like to see that. I'm on the show.

Oh yes, yes, that's another. That's another Orange is the new Black Alum too?

Right? Yeah?

Oh yeah, And there has.

Been like the this is like the Venn diagram of Orange is the new Blacklane or a recpeo. It's like every single person.

I would see them as a crime boss. I want like Russian crime boss.

Yeah, yeah, splitting up maybe on organized crime? Organized crime?

Is that the new one?

Yeah, that's the new one with Maloney. Maloney's back.

Okay, I'm curious what you get recognized from the most.

You know, it's interesting because I've been around for a few years. So sometimes it's.

Just like someone thinks they know me, and I'm like, I don't think so, but you know, I'm I'm actually heading to Pensacola, Florida for one of these horror sci fi conventions, which I do from time to.

Time, and Super Mario Brothers is always a big wow. Just you know, there's some there, there's some nostalgia for people from their childhood of it being something that they watched when.

They were kids, so I get some Princess Daisy action. And then of course Norah de Niro from Pump Up the Volume the which you know, I guess I was like the first crush for a lot of dudes and some women and women who were around that age and wanted to emulate being as cool as that character was, which I wanted to be as cool as that character was. Yeah, And it's so exciting because I just realized on Twitter in the last week that HBO Max actually released it.

I'm going to watch it.

I'm really glad that it's back on the internet.

I know, I'm curious to see. So the big problem with it being released in this day and age had been that, like there's so much incredible music on it, and I guess they hadn't licensed that music in perpetuity. You know, You've got like Leonard Cohen and the Pixy's and Lenny Kravitz and like it's a crazy good soundtrack, and they didn't have the licensing for it. So I guess Warner Brothers now that it's all HBO, MEX whatever. It's one big universe. They will. I think it's got

But oh good, you have to check it out.

Yeah you did mention.

You know, you've been working and for a while from the night like doing so much. What are things that have changed in the industry that you like vers not bring me back to the nineties.

You know, when I started out in nineteen eighty six, you know, the desired trajectory of an actor was to get to film, you know, and once you got out of television, you didn't want to be television anymore because you were labeled a television actor. That obviously is not the case anymore. It's a whole new landscape. And you know, in the eighties, independent cinema was just on fire, so it was an incredible time to be making small movies.

So on IMDb, your first credit is Aaron's Way And was that really like your first professional gig, being a series regular on a show?

Yeah?

Yeah, wow. Were you like Wow, I'm incredible.

I was like, Wow, this is great. I'm totally gonna have this amazing career. And my mom was like, it's really not that easy. And I was like, yeah, whatever, We're shooting the pilot in Australia, bye, and she was like, oh God, it's not going to be so glamorous. You're gonna be in the middle of nowhere. You're going to be staying in a motel six and you know I have and she was right. But I was very blessed. Yeah,

Yeah, and then like I'm one of these people that watched you like all growing up, like Pump Up the Volume.

This is my life, little woman, like Fern Gully.

You're a voice on Fern, Like I just can't it's it's just so wild. Like but like you did this TV show in eighty eight and by ninety you were on Pump Up the Volume, which you were a huge leading role. So like that, it seems like things went pretty fast for you at the beginning.

Well Erin's Way was eighty six eighty.

Oh, I'm looking at on on dB. It might be off, it.

Might be yeah, it might be off, but yeah, I mean it was about three years and suddenly I was doing my first feature film that we made a big fancy premiere at Grandma's Chinese Theater and suddenly I was in it girl, and.

Like having that that yeah moment in Hollywood, which was just amazing.

Did you ever work with your mom?

She did a very small role in a TV movie just for fun, for us to get to do a scene together. It was called Extreme Close Up and it was produced by Edswick and Marshall Hurstkovetz of thirty something Same. They produced it, and Peter Horton, who was an actor on that, directed this and so it was like a really tiny scene and I was like, do you want to just come do this for fun? And so she did.

And do you do theater a lot?

I tried to. I mean, you know, I can't afford to do it all the time. But I actually just closed in a small musical in New York City. We just finished doing it about a week and a half ago, called Whisper House. The music was written by Duncan Chic.

He did another big musical he did Bring Awakening, which awakened at all.

Yes, just did either of you see that?

Oh? I did.

I got fired from fat Camp. I was a counselor. I was I was twenty years old. I got fired from fat Camp and was They just dropped me off at a bus and so I had to go to New York City and I saw the sign of Spring Awakening and I went, I have to see it. And I called my dad and I was like, please buy.

Me a ticket to this play. Oh yeah. So it was a big moment for me. Sorry to go on and on. But yeah, I saw it and it meant a lot to me to be able to see it.

Yeah, I mean it was revolutionary at the time, like the choreography, the whole notion of the juxtaposition between rock and roll music with these kids in German little pinaphores and school was amazing. Anyway, Yeah, we just did this musical called Whisper House, which we were supposed to do in twenty twenty, and we were about to go on stage on March the twelfth to do our very first performance and Broadway shut down and then we shut down. It was an off Broadway show, but so we never

Moved to Zoom and we rehearsed on Zoom, which is not ideal theater. Took a Christmas break, which is me home with COVID for a week and then we went back and rehearsed entirely in mosques the rest of the time.

The first time, well, the first time we were in front of a live audience was only the second time we'd ever done the plate see each other's faces. It was a wild experience and a miracle because we actually got through the run. We had no understudies, and so if any of the three cast members who didn't get COVID got COVID, we would be shut down. Every day shows in New York were shutting down. I don't know if you guys follow that stuff, but like so many

And are you like New York till you die? Or you enjoy the West Coast and you're like, you'll dat?

I mean, I would look. I grew up in Los Angeles. There are things I really love about it. I love being an actor in LA when I'm working. I don't like being an actor in LA when I'm not working. There's something that's just mentally healthier for me about being on the East Coast. And I had been NYC writer die.

Whoa.

Yeah, we talked to a couple of other actors that have done that. Actually, it sounds like the move like you can still get to the city easily, but you're got some space out there and it's beautiful.

Yeah.

Do you have any other like upcoming projects now that the play is done that you want, like our listeners to be sort of eyes peeled for or anything.

Well, I did a little part in pet Cemetery in nineteen sixty nine and that's coming out in April on Paramount Plus. Oh wow, there's a very handsome lad named Jackson White who's the lead of the movie, and Henry Thomas and myself play his parents. Okay, yeah, oh it's pet Cemetery. Yeah, I've pet Cemetery the origin story. So we go back to nineteen sixty nine and learn even more of the origin of why these pets are possessed.

And that just is it what what is this thing called the Georgetown Project that you did? Is that like a that's another horrory type of thing.

Yeah, it is. It's I don't know when it's coming out. It's sort of stuck in a limbo period right now with the editing process, but it is. It is a retelling of the Exorcist in present time. They're trying to remake the movie it, so it's sort of meta. It's about these these people that are trying to remake the movie and no one wants to touch it because it's cursed.

And did weird things happen and.

Weird things, Oh, did weird things happen while I was there?

Yeah, you know no, but I'm.

Gonna tell you that there's like a witchy shop in the Lower East Side, No, in the East Village, And I went there and I talked to some of these white witches and I was like, I'm going to do this thing and I just need like a candle to protect me. And they were like, aha, incredible. And they'd take out a candle and start carving in it and they were like, what, there's Satan involved, okay, And they like created this whole candle that had like spells and

Wow, we love it. We love witchy stuff. She's badass.

I can't believe we got to talk to her, like I truly, Like I remember watching pop up the volume being like this girl is so cool, like and she like.

I don't know, I don't know.

And I dated all these Hollywood people in the eighties, like I mean, sorry, the nineties.

She's just like very very cool and chill, and this rarely happens that people are like, oh, yeah, my mom helped me meet an age you know, like, yeah, I love that she was able to be like, yeah, my mom was an actoring and she knew this person and then I got booked. Instead of pretending that doesn't exist, right, you know, yeah.

Yeah, I just enjoyed that.

Or when someone goes, oh yeah, I grew up wealthy or something like it's weird that people aren't honest about you.

Yeah, And I mean, it doesn't that cool. It doesn't to mean how much she's worked. Sure, she's worked very hard. I mean, judging by the fact that she literally started in the late eighties and by the early nineties was like a household name, basically sounds like she worked sucking hard.

Well, it's the Kim Kardashian of it all. Katherine Ryan, superstar in life, she was saying, she goes. People are mad at the Kim Kardashian statement. It's not about you. She's not talking to you. She's talking to other rich people who don't do stuff. Yeah, stop taking it as a personal attack, Like maybe like she doesn't realize people have it different. She is trying to help people get out of jail. Like I think she understands inequality in the world. Maybe not, but I did like that perspective.

School, or like influencers that are like I just want to like post post like bikini shots and make a bunch of money, you know, And She's like, you actually have to do a lot more if you want to like get to my level, which is probably true.

Yeah.

So that was just interesting because everyone it's like people just rage so hard. It's kind of like my tweet where I go parents that post their kids constantly, and then it was like you hate kids, you have no soul.

I'm just like, what that is not what I want? Yeah, people about what I wrote. That's the Internet.

But like, look, I'm not even like a huge Kim fan or anything. I just like, I fucking hate what Kanye is doing to her right now. So right now I'm on her side about pretty much anything.

I didn't love the work comment when I first heard it.

I was like, obviously you have to put it in the right context and not everyone's going to take it out of context. But like, he is being such a fucking nightmare continually to her, and I just I got to support her on that because it's he's he's the worst.

He is the worst. And I'm glad, not really, I'm.

I don't know the adjective, but that people are seeing what it's like to leave an abusive relationship on such.

A big scale. Like, yeah, I don't know.

I think it's important and it sucks that she has to go through it, but I hope it penetrates people's brains a little bit and makes people understand or become empathetic.

I don't know.

But it's also weird that Pete Davidson's in the middle of it all.

I'm like, what is happening.

He's calling out Michael Chay and I'm like, it's so fun, it's so weird.

Wait, what's the Michael Chay of it at all?

I didn't see just like posted on it Kanye Kanye, oh wow, yeah, Like it was basically what he deleted it already, but it was basically like this what he did for Trevor Noah, but he did it for Michael Chai.

What's the Trevor. I don't know any of this.

He just like it's just his erratic posts, you know how he deletes everything, like he only ever has like ten posts up. I don't know he had one up that was just the Google results of Michael Shay. He's always like trying to like poke at Michael Chay. I think it's because of the Peat connection, but I don't know anyway, what else to this episode.

I would just say, you know, fucking believe women, even if it's the craziest story you've ever heard, because the depths of evil are all around us.

Yeah, wow, that's very eloquently foot.

You know, everyone's evil, so like it doesn't matter if someone's drunk or this story is wild, Like I'm sure it's real.

I don't know. Yeah, it just sucks to know.

But people are always gonna people are always gonna like prey upon people that won't be you know, they prey upon people that have like, you know, vulnerabilities. And that's what's so fucked up. When she tried, we need to help more people.

And if someone brings a teenager as a date and they're a grown person to a family party, kick him off out of the party.

Yeah, and it just it really did make me not that I wanted, like Samantha Mathis's character to not exist, but it did make me realize how much like that this mother did not look like she had a lot of resentment for her child because she felt like her child ended her life in a lot of ways. And that's why we need to have choice. You know, Like I don't wish that she wasn't didn't exist, but you know what I mean, Like the mom was like she

Also And shout out to Joyel Nicole Johnson. She was nominated for a Critics Choice Award this last week or two weeks ago for her Comedies special on Peacock. But she brought her clutch on the red carpets that abortion is normal, Oh awesome, And so she was really pumping up that purse and built her whole outfit and look around her purse.

I shouldn't have doubted you, but I really did not know where you were going with that, and I thought you were just going into a shout out for Joyel, and I was like, okay, right from abortion, how bad.

I shouldn't have doubted you. I knew there was a tie in.

Well, she's she's worked with Lady Parts Justice and she's very good, Like she will go to a group of people protesting abortion and choice and calmly talk to them for like hours to try to change their mind. Like she does the groundwork and goes to these fucking dumb towns and talks to like dumb teenage boys who think they have an opinion on anything.

And so she really does a lot of the work. So that's shout out, shout out to Joel. Yeah, everybody check out her special And then let's just segue into what would Sister Peg do. This is our weekly segment where we give you guys an organization, a link of books, one thing that will give you more info about what

And you guys are such incredible people and I know you're gonna check out all the resources that touch your heart.

And you guys really showed up for Ukraine.

Yeah, we earned a bunch of money for the Ukraine more than twenty four hundred dollars and that was so like, so awesome of all of you guys to give.

I'm sure people gave, but.

That was just what we counted of the donations that were fifty plus.

And you guys are so generous.

We love you and we hope to see you live at our shows. That's messed up live dot com, check out the live stream, etc.

I did run into Nick Foon at south By and he goes I love that podcast now at the top up to start with like listing out the thank yous to all the gifts they get. I thought that was funny where it's like and thank you so much for bringing that knitted handbag.

To the show. It's true and people are so cool.

Next week we got a fucking Warren light tongue twister. Remember me in Quarantine Season twenty two, episode three, Peacock Hulu VPN sticks fire sticks everywhere.

VPNs are not sticks. But you've been saying it for so long that I didn't want to change your mind. But somebody did write into us and I was like, I do know that, but I sometimes I just let Lisa go, you know, no, but yeah, get a VPN and watch us illegally across the world. We'll see you guys next week.

Bye. That's Messed Up is an Exactly Right production.

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As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our producer Analie Nelson and to our mixing engineer RYO Baum, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song.

And to Carly Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer and everyone at Exactly Right Media.

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