Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.
These episodes are based on.
These are our stories, done done.
It is Lisa and all of our incredible listeners. I forgot to record. I messed up the recording, so I might sound a little weird. Just for the introduction and outro, so I might sound a little weird. But whatever, We're all just humans trying our best. Hello, Welcome to That's Messed Up an sv podcast.
I am Lisa and I am Kara, and this podcast is all about Law and Order SVU. We talk about specific episodes and then the true crimes are based on. Normally we talked to guests from the show, but we are not having guests because we are in solidarity with the WGA and SAG after right now, who are on strike. And before we do anything, we like to chat and well, it's your birthday.
It's my birthday today. We're in the time machine.
You're not listening to this till October baby, but yeah, it's your birthday. Yeah, it's another birthday and your sun is shitting up a storm.
Did he not get the memo. Did he not get the memo?
I know?
And like this morning he woke up so early and I was like, get out of here, and he's he's been six so he just wants to like come in my room in the morning and like be like just talk to me in bed, and I'm like stop talking.
I'm like, can you be quiet?
He goes okay, and then he's like Mama, and he just keeps talking to me.
I'm like, be quiet, maybe yeah, more minutes.
You're sick be of energy to harass me right now while I'm trying to get some shut eye and nild Wait did the kids? Did the kids like the balloons?
Oh? So I just got home.
So so, first of all, Lisa and I have all week been hopefully some of you listened. We've all the week of my birthday been on Radio Andy doing Reality Checked, guest hosting I Walk in Today.
Lisa's got a balloon.
Spread for me, including one of notorious cartoon Dad I Want to Fuck the Dad from Bluey, a bunch of other cute balloons, two big ass bottles of Modello cookies from Milk Bar, and a piece of Cheeto birthday cake from listen, this is the thing.
Wait, I do want to know did the children like the balloones?
So I got home with those balloons and Oscar came out from his nap and his eyes were like.
What Like, he's like, look at the big bluey like he loves it.
Rosie hasn't seen them yet, but when she sees them, I'm sure she's gonna want to.
Well, this party store, I want to go back. It was heaven. I couldn't believe it. It's called Vine Party and something.
But oh the big one, the big one in Hollywood. Yeah, I was like it was near where we record. It was like in that area that's like a famous party store. Oh that makes sense. They deserve to be famous. They have like so many balloons, I mean so many. It was so cool in so many rows.
And they have a whole circle display of Halloween balloons.
Yeah, like it's it's.
Cool because I but anyway, Yeah, it was. It was amazing in there.
Yeah.
I heard about them on my mom group because they were struggling during the pandemic, and I went there to get stuff for Rosie's birthday because I wanted to support them because I've been there for other parties and they have great shit.
Yeah, it was really cute in there, but well it's more it's a warehouse. I wouldn't say cute. Yes, the items are cute. The items are cute. I there was a sign that said snow Queen and it was frozen, but I thought it said Sleigh Queen and I was like.
Yes, but it wasn't. It wasn't it. You go Elsa, You cunty bitch. I love that.
So we did have this Cheeto's cake from milk Bar. If you listen to us on serious, I apologize, But milk Bar has gone down, Like I wouldn't, I couldn't.
I can't believe. I just am. It's heartbreaking.
Yeah, Like I actually kind of knew when they expanded to my neighborhood in New York, Like there was one on the Upper West Side for like the last two or three years that I lived there, and I would go there and be like, this doesn't taste like the one that I used to go to.
That.
Yeah, like the line, but that's even how many years ago is that seven?
Can you imagine how far they've slid? You know what I mean?
I wish, I wish for the days where you thought it was bad. I just similar, like horrified. The oven wasn't on there. You just pick a cake in the fridge that's sitting like things are just pretty. It to be something so special. I was also younger. I was also newer, but it just well, I have to milk bar. I love Christina Tosi. I think you know I'm a fantom. Yeah, maybe they need to do a little quality check at this one location.
Yeah, they just hired like one deadbeat strower to work at this one in LA and maybe he's the one bringing it down.
A dead beat. He was a dead beat. That was a perfect word to describe him. So thank you very much. Kara's big birthday, also for me, was an IUD removal and.
Replace, remove and replace, like I'm go and stop like Nascar, like they stop, they take off the tires, they put new ones on.
You know it really I was a little over dramatic, but I really didn't like it.
But I think, but now, I.
Just psych yourself out and say I think it's better to be like, oh my god, it's gonna be terrible. It's gonna be terrible, and then say it was way worth less bad than I thought it was.
It's still so bad. No, I will not good.
I was crying and they were all very nice to me, but it was for more than it was just like but it wasn't the world.
But it's just crazy.
It's just I just thought of the weight of everything in the world because of that in my basshole. So we saw me and Kara saw the same toxic reddit I think today, and that was in my mind, and I was just like, oh, like, why is so much of womanhood associated with pain? And like we need to tolerate pain and it's like a sense of pride how much fucking pain it is And it's like fucking bullshit.
Basically this reddit, in case anybody.
Doesn't know what we're talking about, is this guy translate my race?
Yeah?
This guy was like, my wife is having a baby and she's just made her birth plan like without me, and I really want her to have a natural birth because my mom and my sisters did that and she doesn't really get along with them that well, and I really think it would bring them closer together. I also don't want her to be like loopy and out of it at this important moment. And it's like that is not what an epidural does like, it does not make you a loopian out of it.
It numbs your body, that's it. And then when you like.
Scroll through all the like people are giving their answers, which is like you're a demon, You're a demon, You're a demon. And he's like, well, no, I watch videos on YouTube. I understand she should just do what I say. It's not just about her. I'm involved. I don't need your advice. It's like you just hope it's fake because this is horrible.
Yeah, well, I don't know. Can they all be fake?
Like there was one a few months ago that I saw where a guy was like, I think my am I the asshole for saying my wife should pay for the epidural. I don't think I should have to pay for that. That's like a luxury for her. No thing, this is sadly a thing. Or there was one thing I.
Saw where it's like she wants me to do cut up watermelon for her and do things for her.
I'm not gonna treat her any different.
And it's like, but wouldn't you treat anyone different if they suddenly ballooned with a human in them? Like yeah, I just I just well, I just saw a clip where this guy was like, well, you know, I married my wife because she was hot, and then after ten years I realized she was a person, and she's right sometimes then whoa, And it's like, and you think you're the smart one, go fuck yourself to Instagram.
I love, but they really know how to put me in a rage.
And I was just in such a rage where I was like, why is it cool to give oh? And he kept being like women have gotten given birth for thousands of years, it's fine, and everyone's like, yeah, a lot of them die.
Yeah, they used to fucking die most of the time.
And just because I don't understand why the pain is associated with like better or anything. It's like, do what you want if you want to feel it, feel it. But I just meanwhile, it's like I did the epidule.
Both times I've talked about it, Like the first time, it fucking did it work, So I felt the second time it was a lot easier. The epidura was great. It's still a horrible process out your body. There's still so much pain involved. Why wouldn't you if you could remove one piece of the pain, they're there. I don't know this guy was so delusional. He goes, it's our birth. We're both having this baby, just in different ways, and it's like, no, sir, you are not having this baby.
But he also said something about pain where it's like pain shouldn't determine things, like it's just something you deal with, and it's like, no fucking way fun.
And then these guys have to pass a kidney stone and are like in tears and it's the worst thing they've ever experienced.
Just no, it's like, well, you were built to do it, so do it in pain. Yeah, Gorilla, It's like crazy, it's it really sickened me. And so that's what I was thinking about. And obviously getting an IUD insertion is like what it's like, Oh, what the fuck are you digging in there, you psycho? And then it is like a piece of plastic and they have to show you the old one and they're like look and I have my eye I covered my eyes and she's like, look at it.
You have to sign off that you saw it. Because also that.
They don't like put another one in. No, like if a part of it was.
Missing, like it could be in you and then infections or something. So this is kind of like you have to look at it and confirm that it is a full one.
Okay, then chipped and.
They're like they're like, if having an ID was easy, everyone would have one.
Thanks.
And then at one point one of the nurses could tell I was stressed, and so she would talk to me for a while. And when the other two people, because it's like I think there was a student they walked in, she went, yeah, I was just keeping her company.
And I was like, well, I thought you were asking ques.
You can't say that in front of me, like we were making conversations.
She was like, oh, I was just killing time. Yeah, thanks, Oh my god.
Wait, so what are your plans for Oh yeah, so next intro you'll hear about our Vegas trip.
I mean, yeah, we're going to be Oh I wanted to tell you this. I might as well tell you this on the podcast, but I did call. So we've been a little bit stressed because we are going to Vegas this weekend.
And We'll be honest, one person and the rest the group has been ignoring me and saying I'm an idiot.
No, no one thinks you're an idiot.
I'm like, hey, any news on the cyberacs seems like a big deal, and everyone's like, who cares, We'll change our passwords, it'll be fine.
I'm like, what the fuck.
No one has been No one has been taking it as seriously as Lisa, that's for sure. I was like, well, first of all, it happened like eight days ago. I was like, it'll be done by the time we're there, but it's not fully resolved. I did call them on the way back from our radio Andy today, so I spoke to a woman who I can't tell if she knows anything, but a live person that works there. She said, everything's pretty much working ATMs are still down and Wi
Fi is in and out and that's it. But she's like, restaurants are taking credit cards, everything else is working, and things are getting better and better every day, Like so everything could be totally working by the time you get here. She couldn't say that for sure, obviously.
Yeah, okay, well I'll be venmoing. I will not be putting my car down at the table.
Now.
I'm gonna well paying cash, like where the fucking rap pack?
Yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, just throwing down bills.
Yeah, I gotta take out cash. I'm excited.
I just haven't been to Vegas since before, like since twenty eighteen, and I'm so pumped. Do you like any gambling or you just haven't done it.
I don't know why you have said either of those things to me. I play hold them. I know how to play old that's right. I think the guys can swindle me pretty fast. Have I done blackjack?
Yeah? But I lose it fast.
And like, I just feel like every time I gamble it's a letdown because it's like the money goes in and then I'm like, oh, that was four minutes and I guess I'm done, you.
Know, yeah, and now I'm zero.
This is why I like Roulette because it lasts a long time for me, Like, I guess you can play for a while, how because what are the chances that's gonna land on? What I do is I build up money on the sides. I build up money doing black or red od or even or playing the thirds. Okay, then once I get a little bit of then I start scattering them on the inside with the different numbers. Then you get a couple hits, you get a couple
of misses. I'm not playing any huge like I'm not throwing a stack of them on black or anything like that.
I don't do that.
I build up on the outsides that I play the middle and I just have fun.
But it lasts for a long time.
When I play lays, I didn't realize you're betting on the outside than the inside. I don't think I realized there was depth to the game.
Yes, that's I didn't know that either until I went and spent nine days in Vegas one time at the same hotel that we're seeing that, and I like, I learned how to play roulette and was like, oh, this is fun, and like it is crazy because there's truly no skill, but it does I feel like you can like, you know, it lasts a little longer because yeah, when I play Blackjack, I just listened to what guys at
the table tell me to do. I'm like, I don't know hit or stay, and they like tell me, and then I just, you know, sometimes I do well, like Beginner's luck, but then other.
Times it's like, yeah, you just walk away with nothing.
I wanted afusing you with our friend who's coming with us, who like has never gambled.
I was confusing.
I forgot what your gambling experience was.
I was offended, So thank you for psyching that.
Do you remember still my family credit card to gamble in the Dominican Republic like a little psycho my sister's idea underage gambling. No, I really, you know, if I see a sex in the city slot machine, I'm walking over. I'm kind of that type of person. But you know what I wish, Like I wish my kinds of games were gambling. I don't even know, like a price is way like categories? Can we put some money on that?
Yeah? Can we pay banana grams for money? Yeah? Like that would be a good idea, that would Well. That happened to me when I went to Foxwoods in Massachusetts one time and they had War, you know the game you just like play that with like your grandma. It's like the easiest game of all time, and you can play against you can play War against a dealer.
And I played for a while and I was losing a lot, and then I came out of it, paid my friend back and want on extra hundred dollars on War.
So stupid, wow wow wow wow.
No.
Yeah, I think I just hope someone I want to win big. But that's I guess the whole the whole foundation of how they swindle you. We all want to win big baby, But I'm.
Excited to see We're also going to see Drag Race live.
I know some of you are big drag fans like we are, and I'm excited to see the big show. And yeah, I'm pumped, Lazy River exciting.
It is exciting.
But I do feel like having kids takes away the idea of, like your birthday, we're really going to make the most out of it in the weekend without them. Yeah, really, it's just like you got you gotta pick a dinner place.
They're gonna like it's a nice Well, well, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Because he's been sick.
I'm trying to get my nails done after we record today, and then I'm gonna meet them at the playground where my husband will be keeping them, you know, caged in, and then we'll just walk. It's like the only I'm going to take them to a pizza place because it's like walkable.
It's just easy.
And then I have my show tonight and then I have my show. Is bad up maybe hanging out with some friends and I wanted you to come by, but you're busy and booked, and I only have.
One I might come by because isn't it starts at eight or night now we're.
Just it starts like eight fifteen. It starts like eight fifteen. If you live in LA come to my show, better half. Obviously you won't be at this birthday show because this is in the future, but you should go.
It is a fun show.
Now. I have a seven to fifty spot at the laugh Factory, and my friend Frecks is in town staying over there, and she really wants to staying out at the comedy store. So I feel like, you know she's in town, I should take her, show her rap, maybe get her a hot dog at Carnies. I don't know if she likes how dogs, but anyways, but I feel like going to your show is fun and if she wasn't in town, so we'll see what I can find.
Yeah, yeah, well, I mean you're already coming to Vegas. I don't expect anything, and you went above and beyond with my beautiful blue balloon. All right, I'm going to sleep with my bandit balloon tonight.
But yeah, I just love.
The creativity of that party store. I'm honestly pissed I found it because I'm.
Going to go into debt. Like. I really loved it in there.
I've gone there to get shipped for like fourth of July. I've gone in there for tons of like they have. They have just good stuff and I've gotten kids stuff. Yeah, they have good shit.
Yeah, y it's something.
And everything at Party City is like a billion dollars, and I think they have more reasonable prices.
It's good. It's good. We got to support the local businesses.
Their prices are reasonable compared to what else is going on, and the other places aren't as creative as fun and fun in here. They had a whole of Manhattan balloon shaped like the Men, a drink of men like with a Maraschino cherry and a whiskey glass.
Oh my god, Okay, now I do a balloon. I'm getting you next year. That's like perfect.
Disco balls, unicorns. I was just like blown away. Usually it's just Door the Explorer. I don't know why I said it, like.
Explore, that dumb bitch. I love little Dora.
She did something for short haircuts that no one, no one has done. Oh fucking Twiggy Yeah, Anna Winter and Dora the Explorer. The most iconic bobs in history. Bangs baby bangs for days. All right, we get started about SVU. I forget sometimes I know where are we? No, it's SVU. It's a good episode. Have a good time, guys.
Wait one more thing. We're always trying to shove in our tour dates. Guys.
Obviously this episode comes out on the third. This week, we are leaving for Buffalo, will be there on the eighth of October. We'll be in New Haven on the tenth, and Burlington on the twelfth, then Cleveland on the eighteenth, Boston on the nineteenth, Toronto on the twenty fourth, Detroit on the twenty fifth, and Pittsburgh on the twenty six.
Guys, come see us.
Some of these are new cities your friends tell bring people that you just think like comedy and maybe have seen SVU in a hotel twice.
I promise they're going to like the show.
We put on a good one and yeah, we just had a great run in September, and I'm excited for all these October shows. Boston, please get your fucking asses out there. We've got to fill up the Wilberg.
We love you.
Let's get started. Oh that's messed uplive dot com for all your ticket in bo all right, today we are covering competence, taking it back to two thousand and two, Season three, episode twenty two. We open in the precinct and we get right to business. Finn walks up to this lady. The actress is Lois Smith. She's very prolific. She has one hundred and forty five credits, ninety two years old, still working, honey, she has been in True Blood.
Ladybird a bunch of stuff and Finn's like, can I help you, ma'am, and he passes her over to Stabler. She introduces herself as Rebecca Tolliver and she wants to speak privately and needs to report a rape. And she said it was her that was attacked. It was her daughter, Katie, and she said her daughter started throwing up, so she took her the doctor and the doctor said she's pregnant, but she doesn't have a boyfriend and she's twenty two. And the mom's just like, just talk to her, and
she's waiting in the hallway. So we go out and Katie is sitting sort of sideways with hair covering her face, and when she turns to meet Stabler, we see.
That she has Down syndrome.
So that's the big Dune done reveal, and it's the shortest cold open in history. We're already at the credits and Katie is played by Andrea Fei Friedman, who has also been in Life goes On and voiced a character with Down syndrome on Family Guy. So she has been also working but may have left the business. At this point, I feel like she doesn't have anything more recent, but so top of Act one, they've brought in Olivia. She
is much better at talking to people than Elliott. And Katie's explaining to Live about the pregnancy and she says there's no daddy, but babies need a mommy and a daddy.
On the other side of the one way glass, Stabler and Katie's mom, Rebecca are watching and Rebecca's hell him that Katie's dad bounced as soon as she was born, and she explains that Katie is in with her all day she has she has to work, and so Katie goes to a day program and has a part time job, and she said it's very easy for someone to take advantage of her. And he asks if she's explained sex to Katie, but she says Katie has the mind of
a child and she wouldn't get it. So back to live in Katie, and she asks if Katie knows like the birds and the bees, and Katie says it's private, and Live says, it's cool. We're both girls. Let's gab and I love that. I'd love to talk about sex with Olivia Benson. She says, babies come from sex, which is when a mommy and daddy kiss and hold hands. Aliv asks, if she kisses and holds hands with anyone, you can tell me.
It'll be our little secret.
Katie smiles and then says, I'm going to throw up, And so the mom goes rushing to help Katie and tells the cops to find the son of a bitch who did this to us.
So Benson and Sable are.
Talking to Craigan about this, and they're all like, it would be a lot easier if the mom had given Katie even like one tiny convo about six ed Because they're trying to educate her about sex and get the info out of her, and the jury will just think that they coached her.
So let's get Huang's ass in here.
So Stabler walks Katie and her mom in to meet with Wang, and the mom's like, how many more people do we need to talk to? Can't this wait till tomorrow? And it's like did you or did you not just scream? Find the son of a bitch who did this? Like I never understand these people that are like, stop talking to her, find the person who did this. It's like they're trying. Not all cops are trying. These cops are trying.
So she doesn't want to put Katie through any more of this, and they leave, so they have to find another way. And it's always confusing to me.
It's like you came in looking for help and then the moment it's not solved like that, no we got it. No she can't handle it. We're done, We're done. Yeah, yeah, you came here. This isn't even a situation where the detectives are knocking down your door demanding stuff. You came in and then are shutting it down, and it's you know, she's trying her best, but it's annoying to me.
Yeah, well, we are going to see a pattern of overprotectiveness from this woman throughout this episode. As you know, this is a little foreshadowing of that, so they say they've got to find another way in. Katie's doctor confirmed the pregnancy and said that she had sex repeatedly, but there's no way to tell if it was forcible or not. And it's like, I think there is ways to tell, but I guess there's no evidence of whether it was forcible or not. Huang wants her test results from her
day center so he can determine her abilities. So now we're at the Manhattan Adult day Center and we see a cute blonde man saying that Katie's IQ is fifty five between moderate and mild mental retardation their words, not mine. He asks how Katie's doing, and Live says, well, she's confused, to which Blondie replies, well, she would understand more if her mom let her out of the cocoon. Burn Rebecca Tolliver, he says, is overprotective. She doesn't think Katie can function
in the world without her, and Blondie disagrees. And his name is actually this actor's name is C. J. Wilson, and he's had small parts in like Homeland, The Center, House of Cards, the Americans, many shows that I like. I don't remember him from these shows, but that shows
he's been in. Tells them about what Katie does at the Center Art Music, and there's independent living classes and sex ed and is also taught, but Katie's mom won't let her take those classes, so they do background checks on all the employees, references they've never had a problem. He also tells them that Katie's best friend is named Danny Jordan and he's one of their success stories. Any chances they're more than friends, they ask, He says, we
supervise the clients very closely. No one has reported Danny touching Katie, and he's taken dating and sex ed class, Danny hass, so Danny knows what's up. So now we're talking to Danny Jordan, and this is a little bit problematic. It is two thousand and two. He is played by an actor named James Badge Dale who is not mentally disabled,
but is playing someone who's mentally disabled. So he is like putting on a full voice and doing a full acting job of playing someone with mental disability that I don't think you would see that today.
But he says he knows what sex is.
Let me interrupt for a second. Yeah, so that reminded me of our former guest Will Sasso, who display someone that maybe he shouldn't have been dropped. It gorgeous, best movie ever. He was in the episode Send in the Clowns that we covered. I got a DM from the guy in the clown Mask.
Oh my god.
I had met him in New York years ago at the Comedy Cellar, like he you know, he was an actor, he was working at BuzzFeed. He's like me, he's Soviet Union vibes. And he messaged me. He goes, yeah, someone stopped me on the street and said that I have to listen to that's messed up because you guys talk about me and yeah, so he he just sent me a message being like, I'm the guy in the clown mask. I'm like, you were menacing and you did get fucked over.
Yeah, the guy that they framed. Oh my god, Wow, I can't believe you talked to him. Amazing.
Yeah, he goes, I'm dying and then he goes so many stories from that shoot, iced Tea being wild, the director just telling me I have anger management issues and I have to yell more.
Iced T and I just.
Yelled what was in the meet back and forth for about a half an hour.
Oh my god, I wish we could edit this into the Old Sun in the Clowns episode.
I know who knew, but that's so.
I mean, all these listeners are incredible because you know, I love the show. Praise PD and Anna the creator messaged me and she's like, yeah, my friend's sister in law said she listens to an SVU podcast that was talking.
About the show. Do you know anything about that? Nogo?
It was me.
Now, we're not talking about we're not promoting anything that Hollywood makes.
Now, what the fuck? Why won't they settle pieces of shit?
I heard, like, there's so many rumors going on right now, but I did hear last week somebody say that they think that the CEO meeting is like they're getting their ducks in a row and preparing to make an offer.
But I don't fucking know. There's a lot of a lot of rumors going on right now. Okay, So back to this actor, Thanks for my little you.
Know, yeah, thank you for that side, very worthy interruption. So this guy playing Danny Jordan, who is mentally disabled, and he says he knows what sex is, but he says he never told Katie because she has to learn about it in school first, and he says they've never had sex. He knows someone has been bothering Katie, but he promised not to tell. They obviously convinced him like, we need to know so we can help Katie, and he goes, it's Ray, the bus driver. I take the
regular bus, she takes the little bus. Katie says Ray is mean to her and that he touched her. So now we're at the grocery store where Katie works, and the manager is like, yeah, she came in crying one day, said that the bus driver pushed her. I told him I'd get him fired if I ever heard that happened again. He also says last month he fired the frozen food manager for calling her an imbecile. So this guy is coming off as a real, you know, captain of justice.
At his job, he doesn't let anybody talk any shit to Katie. He says, we get an ignorant customer here or there, but Katie doesn't get a ton of shit at this job.
She's on the board.
Sorry, he's on the board of the day center, and he doesn't tolerate any bullshit like that. He says, he gets employees from the center all the time, they get union pay, real life experience, and they want to be there, and a lot of them work harder than people without disabilities, so it's a great deal for everybody at the precinct. Alex is like, we can't nab this bus driver until
Katie tells us what he did. Elliott's on the phone trying to get the mom to let them talk to Katie, and then they find out this guy Ray, the bus driver's fifty two. He has no rap sheet, but he was fired from a nursing home for allegedly stealing from the residents. He claimed they were all gifts, but he targeted people with dementia, so the cops obviously couldn't make a case out of it.
So you know what I just saw on a BuzzFeed thing where you know, nursing homes and assisted living are different. Yeah, and assisted living centers don't have the same like health codes and cleanliness codes and like medical stuff because it's not a medical place. And so a lot of these assisted living facilities, I guess are gross as fuck. And there's like STDs are like rampant in these assisted living facilities because everyone's hooking up.
Yeah, but that's not bad. Old people get to fuck like.
I'm okay, I know, but they got to treat their STDs too. STIs stiyes. So Elliot says, okay, we're all set to talk to Katie tomorrow, and to make it happen, he promised her a trip to the zoo. So now we're at the Central Park Zoo. Stabler couldn't cough it up for the Bronx Zoo. I just took Rosie to the zoo. It's the Central Park one. It's tiny. I went to this seal ingclosure. It smells like absolute shit and they're hanging out right outside of it, and Katie
and her mom are just laughing at the seals. The seals are barking. It's a lovely day. Live and Elliott show up with Cabot. Elliott takes the mom away and Live in Cabbot are left to talk to Katie. We first go to Elliott and Rebecca, the mom chatting. He brings up his twins. She talks about how when she found out she was pregnant, she dreamed of graduations, weddings, grandchildren. You know she's sixty seven. She goes, I can't take
care of two completely dependent people. Like my daughter and her child, and he's like, well, the guy at the center thinks she has the potential to live on her own. And the mom's like, oh yeah, well that fucker thinks he can teach anyone anything. I let Katie out, and look what happened. I let her out into the real world, and look what happened. Back to live in Alex tucking to Katie, trying to get her to give some specifics
on this bus driver. She says he took her necklace and it's a heart with a picture of her mom inside. She told her mom she lost it because Ray said he'd hurt them if she told. She also says he pinches her, and she shows where she starts at her arm, but then she points to her butt and her breast, So what the fuck is up with this bus driver? But she gets upset talking about it and calls for her mom, and the mom's like, you promised you wouldn't
upset her, and then whisks her off for home. And they're like, this is not enough to prove rape, but it is enough for a search warrant for this guy's place. So we cut to Finn and Munch at Ray's apartment and Finn's like, what a dump and just shits on the furniture immediately, which I love. And then Munch finds Katie's necklace like in three seconds, like it's lying out like with a sign on it that says here's where the necklace is.
Babes.
So Benson and Stabler go to a rest Ray and the bus driver's like, what I do? Stabler off them up a little and says, Ray, when a cop tells you to do something, you should just do it, which I don't really agree with, but you know, this guy might be a child molester and at the very least is a thief of vulnerable people. In interrogation at the top of act two, it's the Cement and bars kind. Ray is worried that the bus company will fire him for leaving the bus on the street. Yeah, what does
happen when you arrest a bus driver? There's just a bus hanging out on the street. And they're like, yeah, they'll they'll probably fire you for that, or maybe for robbing your passengers. And he goes, which one of those are words? Told you that very two thousand and two. Stabler's like, you don't want to use that word around me again. Basically, he's going to introduce your face to a filing cabinet and give you the old Stabler special,
so you better watch your mouth. They show him the necklace and he claims it was a gift, just like at the nursing home, and they go Katie says, you stole it, and he goes, well, it's my word against a morons, and he goes, oh, it just slipped out, and then Stabler kicks the chair out from under him as he's about to sit down, and Stabler goes, it just slipped out, so immature but hilarious. Stabler goes, a jury's not gonna love a purv taking advantage of mentally
challenged women. Katie says, you touched her breast. He says, yeah, maybe taking her in and out of the van, but I never went near any of them. And then they go, well, then how'd you get her pregnant? And the guy starts laughing. He's like, listen, after I knocked up my ex wife twice, I got a vasectomy, I'm shooting blanks, so I didn't knock anybody up. So now they're debriefing Kragan, and in
this case, the bus driver is telling the truth. He had the operation two years ago, and they're going to book him for petty larceny. They can bump it up to robbery three if they can prove force. So we still have no idea who assaulted Katie. Finn and Munch
arrived with some information. Apparently the state Office of Mental Retardation, which I didn't know existed, investigated Katie's day Center after an anonymous caller said some shady shit was going down there, and the same day the investigation started, an instructor named Joe Parker quit. So let's go talk to Joe Parker at a place on Seventh Avenue simply called special needs school.
They literally couldn't come up with like, you know, the clank special needs school, the trigger's special, it's just the special needs school. Bunch and Finn go to talk to Joe Parker. He says he left because he got a better job, and then they play him the anonymous tip from the phone and it's definitely his voice. He's like, fine, I made the call, but I'm not telling you anything else, and they're like, clearly he wants to say more, and
he immediately does. He says he quit because of Scott Lucas the blonde guy, and he claims that Scott got one of the clients pregnant.
Done done, Okay are we.
This episode is filled with red herrings, so what's happening? They go to the center and Scott's like, okay, listen, all of this is true, except for me being the person that did the impregnating. A client got pregnant. It was another client who was the father. We tested the DNA and everything. We didn't go to the cops. We thought we could handle it internally, and it's why we started teaching the dating classes because of parents like Katie's mother,
this could easily happen again. The clients have the minds of children, but they have adult bodies and hormones, so we got to teach them what to do and not do with their bods. So Live in Elle leave and the live admits that the guy is right about Katie's mom. She has to let Katie talk to Huang, and Elliott says, let me take another shot at the mom. So now they're at a plant shop where the mom works, and Elliott is giving her the full court press and is finally like, who are you trying to protect?
Here?
He's like, I'm not saying it's your fault, but she's like, all of this is happening because twenty two years ago I chose to have a child with Down syndrome rather than have an abortion.
It destroyed my marriage. She's my whole life.
I have to protect her, so you could see why she's overprotective, but also her overprotectiveness possibly has led to what has happened. So it's, you know, typical SVU, making you think about all sides of the situation. Stabler says, let's make sure this doesn't happen again. We'll talk to her at the day center where she's comfortable, familiar surroundings. The ADA will be there so she doesn't have to repeat herself. She can just say her statement at one time.
So now we cut Tohog interviewing Katie with Cabot beside her. She's he's quizzing her own body parts and she knows all of them and giggles when she has to say boob and it's like me too, girl. And now they talk about friends, and she says Danny's her best friend. They eat lunch together, they talk, they do other stuff that's private, like touch each other. When she has to point out the touching locations on Alex. She just holds
Alex's hand. It's really sweet. And then she goes and we kiss and she kind of like rubs Alex's cheek and then she says, but Danny doesn't touch me on my private parts. She thinks she got her baby from Danny from kissing and calls Huanga dumbass. She's like, you don't even know how sex work, do you, dummy? And then they break it to the mom that Danny is
Katie's boyfriend and that he might be the father. But Katie still has no idea how she got pregnant, So Rebecca starts yelling at the blonde guy, like how could you let this happen? And he's like, ma'am, you know we watch her like a hawk. If this happened with Danny, it didn't happen here. Katie's uncorroborated statement isn't enough to arrest anyone because of her disability, and we can't compare DNA until the baby's born. Rebecca says, well, we're terminating
the pregnancy tomorrow. So Scott Lucas is heated. He's like, have you told Katie? Does she have a say in this, and Rebecca's like, the baby has a fifty fifty chance of having down syndrome. Who's going to take care of them when I'm gone? He says, we will here with our resources at the center, and she's like, I'm not having her go through what I've gone through.
She can't keep this baby.
So Katie walks in overhearing and is like, why why can't I have my baby? And she tries the mom tries to explain it to her. She's like, I can't take care of both of you, and she's like, why can't I be a mommy?
And everyone's looking at the floor.
It's very uncomfortable, and Rebecca's like, let's not talk about this now. She gives the address to Stabler where they're going to have the abortion and says I'll meet you tom like, you can meet us there tomorrow and you can get your DNA sample. So they leave as Katie is continuing to beg her like Mommy, please don't take away my baby. At the clinic, Katie's checking in and Benson is there to get the tissue sample.
Then this is the next day.
Then Scott shows up, the blonde guy and Rebecca's like, what the hell are you doing here? And he's got a lawyer with him, and he's filed an injunction to stop the abortion because Katie has a right to decide, So he's challenging the mother's guardianship based on the fact that she's making her daughter terminate her pregnancy against her wishes. The mother argues she's not capable of making that decision, and then that's the end of C two. So now at the precinct, Alex is laying it out for Benson
and Stabler. If the court finds Katie competent to care for her child, her rapist lawyer will argue that she's
competent to consent to sex. So this is like a real catch twenty two here, even though she barely knows where this baby came from, they'll focus on the fact that she never said no. Alex asks how far along is Katie and they tell her ten weeks too early for an amnio, but not for a CVS test, which is when tissue is taken from the placenta lining and used to get the baby's DNA, and it's less risky than an amnio, and maybe the mom will go for it because we'll find out if the baby has down
syndrome or not. So before they even make it to the building, the mom is outside panicking. Kati's supposed to be at school, but she never got there. I don't know where Katie is. So sometimes it's crazy to me that they set up these whole scenes, like, you know, there was like a crew and all the shit craft services, extras, everything outside of this apartment building just for her to go. Katie supposed to be at school and never got there, and then they cut to another scene, like it just
is wild to me. So anyway, at the precinct, we find out that Danny is not at the day center. He called in sick, so they're probably somewhere together. He has an independent living apartment in the East Village. His parents are in Riverdale. They might be on the run to prevent the abortion. But it turns out also that Danny's parents have an old apartment on seventy third in Amsterdam,
where Danny grew up. They might be headed there. Danny has a roommate named Andy McCollum at his East Village place, so they go talk to him at the apartment and Andy is in a wheelchair with a sassy attitude. Danny didn't tell me where he went. We don't answer to each other. So he says he was there last night. He saw Danny earlier, and he's being really cagy with the details. And it's a free country. He says, you need to find Katie. So a mom can a boarder baby.
I know everything that's going on, and Andy is not down with this plan. And then Finn goes, come on Andy with the attitude, we just want to make sure they're both safe, and Andy's like, all right, he was here this morning. They took some clothes and left. He asked for money, but he didn't have any cash, so I gave him my ATM car and they're like, is that something you normally do? He could clean you out, and they're like, he won't. If you can't trust Danny,
you can't trust anyone. So I love that these guys are buddies. On the Upper West Side, Stabler meets up with Munch and Finn and confirm that Danny used the ATM in that area and took out two hundred dollars, and Finn goes, you can barely get dinner in this neighborhood.
For two hundred dollars.
I'm like, well, I used to live there and I ate from a bodega most of the time, so you can. Benson goes, okay, Well, a couple like that would stand out, and it's like watch it. Olivia like, let's not. Let's I know it's only O two. So they start canvassing the neighborhood. At a pharmacy, a guy recognizes their photo and says they were in there because Katie was throwing up. He didn't give her anything for the vomiting because she's pregnant, but told them to get ginger ale. It's as good
as anything, which is apparently not true. Many of you have told me when Lisa and I had our sprite versus ginger ale conversation when you're sick, that ginger ale apparently nowadays doesn't even have enough ginger to even warrant being good for your stomach. But for me, it is the flat ginger ale is the thing to have when you feel sick, and that's what I I had when I was pregnant. A guy at a deli also recognizes them and said they must have a newborn because they
cleaned him out of diapers. In infant size, and they also bought ginger ale and the girl said she needed a job, and he goes, I could tell she was a bit slow, and it's like, well, nothing gets by you, and he says the husband helped her fill out a
job application because she was looking for a job. So they know where they are, and next we're at Broadway Arms, which I think is an apartment building but because it looks like one, but later they say it's a hotel but it has a kitchen in it, so who knows. Katie's there and tells them that she's cooking soup and her mom won't let her cook, but Danny taught her how. So she offers Lives some chocolate milk and Lives like, hit me, babe, let's do it. I want chocolate milk.
And Danny walks in and is like what do you cops want and he says, you can't take our baby, and they're like, well, Rebecca, Katie's mom wants her home, and Katie's like, this is our new home. And she shows them their beds and they have separate twin beds and Danny's like, we're getting married. So this is like very sweet that they have, you know, kind of decided
to just start their own life together. At the precinct, Rebecca hugs Katie and is like, I was so worried about you, and and she's yelling at Danny what did you do to her?
And Danny's like, I didn't hurt her.
I love her and she loves me, and he says, I never had sex with Katie. And he even told Katie what sex was earlier, and she didn't believe him. She said, that's not sex, that's exercise. And that is the scariest part of this whole thing is that she was having sex. She thought it was called exercise. So now they're talking to Katie in an office with her mom. She explains exercises when you pull your pants down and you sit on someone's lap, and they're like, who taught
you that? And she says it's a secret, and the mom says, you can tell me and Olivia, but then he won't give me any more ice cream and candy, she says, and they're like, who won't And she goes, mister Cheney, that's done done. Her boss at the grocery store, the hero who hires people from the center and is on their board, but is fully just a predator.
Everyone is trash.
Katie says it hurt, but he said it wouldn't hurt once she could do it better. Oh Vi and Rebecca looks sickened, but they try to kind of hold it together for Katie to like not express how like horrifying this is. So now we've got Cheney, the grocery store manager, in interrogation and he's like, this is the thanks I get for trying to help Katie, and it's like he goes, the only exercise Katie and I ever did was task repetition, which is how you train disabled people to function in
a work environment. And they're like, and dropping your pants is part of it. Finn asks he acts like Katie can't separate reality from fantasy. They're like, just give us that sweet DNA swab and we can clear this all up. And then he lawyers up. So not looking good if you're innocent. Cabot tells them Katie's mom's taking her to get the CVS test. When you get the tissue sample, call me. I'll get a warrant for this guy Cheney's DNA.
In the middle of the conversation, though, Alex gets served and live rushes up and goesh, call he just got served. He wanted to warn you. Oops, it's too late. She's already been served.
Scott Lucas's attorney is calling on Huang and Cabot to testify that Katie is competent to keep her baby. So now Cabot is talking to a bureau chief, our girl, Elizabeth Donnelly aka Judith Light, and she's like, no problem, this compromises an ongoing investigation. I'll make the subpoena go away. And Cabot's like, I'm not sure that's a good idea, and she goes, well, it is if you want to
put Katie's rapist away. And Cabot's like, Katie's mom wants to abort the baby, and maybe that should be Katie's choice, And Donnelly's like, you want to be a crusader for victim's rights, go work for social service. In this house, we believe that you fucking nail purpse. And that's it. So Alex says, Katie has already been victimized once. If I testify, I don't want to victimize her twice. And Donnaly's like, you're not Katie Tolliver's lawyer, you represent the
people of the state of New York. Your duty is to convict her rapist. And if she's found confident, you're going to lose. Cheney's lawyer will say, get her to say that she knew what she was doing and that she liked it, and he will destroy her on the stand. So now we're back at the plant shop, alex is talking to Rebecca. Scott Lucas will drop his challenge of her guardianship if you agree not to terminate the pregnancy, and she's like, that's the whole fucking point. I can't
do that. Needs the abortion and to have her tubes tied so this doesn't happen again. And she's like, well, what about what Katie wants? And the mom's like, I love my daughter. Maybe I should have let her take sex ed, but I knew she wouldn't get it, And then Cabot kind of just cuts to the chase and goes,
why do you need Katie to be so dependent? And she's like, I have sacrificed everything for her, and Cabbot goes, yeah, including Katie's right to live her own life, and Rebecca looks taken aback no one's ever called her out like this. Sometimes it just takes a Cabot, a Cabot convo to.
Snap you to get you together.
In court, Cabot is testifying that when detectives found Katie, the hotel room again I thought it was an amartment was immaculate. Katie had bought diapers and was cooking food. She had also applied for the job at a deli. The lawyer is like, why did you testify today and jeopardize your rape case? And Cabot says, all evidence points to Katie being able to care for a child and to be able to choose.
Whether or not to have that child.
And then okay, the defense or that guy rests and now, uh, Rebecca hired Roger Kressler, so look out because he is no one to be trifled with. He approaches Cabot with the DD five that Benson wrote about the interview with Katie at the zoo. The document says that Katie could not articulate what happened to her and shows absolute compliance to authority figures do you think someone who can't accurately
describe being attacked can take care of a child? And Cabot's like, many women cannot describe the details of their attack. You're taking this out of context. Then they literally slam her with a do you have children, Ada, Cabot not detective. Do you have children, Assistant district attorney? She goes, no, I don't. He goes, do you think buying diapers six months before birth demonstrates good judgment? It is something I thought about. You really don't need to have diapers hanging
around for that long? But did you know Katie once set fire to her mother's apartment trying to use the stove, and Cabots got him there. She goes, I set fire to my own stove last year, very very classy. And she goes, you sit here saying you know more about what Katie is capable of than her mother. And it kind of ends on that, and we cut to Huong on the stand and Katie has He says Katie has
low IQ but is high functioning. He testifies that Katie was more vulnerable to RATE because she didn't know what was happening to her because her mother prevented sex education. He testifies that he thinks Katie could care for a child and that with the correct social service support in case management, they would be fine. Kressler approaches and goes,
what about her competence to consent to sex? She didn't know what sex was, and so she was incapable of consent, So she's incapable of making decisions that affect her life. And Kuwang go's that's not what I said. She can make decisions and choices based on the proper info. Huang says he spent two and a half hours with Katie at her day center, and Kresler's like, so you talk to her in a vacuum, and so we're getting the feeling that Kressler's kind of like getting the one up on all these uds.
Yeah, but I'm tim Kressler like, cabin mind your business, Like why are you You're going to decide if this woman is competent enough or not.
It's just like it does. It is annoying to me.
Yeah, it's also just not enough, Like her escaping to a hotel where she cooked soup and offered chocolate milk is like not really enough to say. Let you know, like, I'm fully in possession of all my mental faculties and having children is so fucking hard. So I'm just saying, like when her mother is gone or her mother is in advanced age. It will be quite a difficult task,
I would say, but what do I know? I'm sure you're going to tell me about a real case maybe where this or maybe there isn't Maybe I don't know, maybe there isn't one who knows anyway.
Now Katie is on the stand.
She says her mom doesn't let her do laundry, kushelll mess up the clothes and she can't use the stove because of the fire. But Danny taught her how. So we're you know, Danny's teaching her how to do stuff. She says, we bought bottles and diapers and he's going to show me how to give the baby a bath. I can do this, mama, I can do lots of things. And it's really sweet how she's like really begging to do it. And Cressler's like, how do you change a diaper? How do you feed a baby? What do you do
when a baby has a fever? She doesn't know the answer to any of these questions, but she's like, but I can learn. Danny will help me. And like, to be fair, my husband didn't know the answers to any of these questions. Before we had a baby, like, you do have to learn this stuff. So I don't knows has points, but he's like bullying a person with mental disability right now, and he's like, but you can't do it by yourself, can you? And Katie starts crying and
Rebecca gets up and it's like stop stop this. In the precinct, Cabot reveals that Rebecca has given up her guardianship and now that Katie is considered competent, the rape case is out the window. Why is she competent though, just because of their testimony, Like who actually declared her
competent anyway, I guess. So they say, now that Katie is competent, the rape case is out the window, and Donnelly is going to have her ass But the results came back and it is positive that Cheney is the father.
But this conviction is going to be tough.
His attorney's going to make it seem like she consented to sex and lives like she was in that office three days a week. Someone must have seen her go in there or told someone at work, we need to talk to Katie and they're like, well, her mom won't let you go near her. And they're like, well, what if we have good news for a change. So Stabler meets Rebecca in a park and tells her, I've got news for you. Your grandchild does not have Down syndrome.
And she says, oh, thank god. But the way she says it is she goes, oh thank god, like she's so relieved. But you didn't need to meet us here to tell us that, she says and lives like, we're gonna lose this rape case against Cheney unless we talk to Katie. And Katie is over pushing a little kid on the swings and it's really sweet and she's talking. She's totally down to talk to Elliott Olivia. She's like, Hi, Elliott,
Hi Olivia. Like she's like embracing them, and she tells them, yeah, once mister Cheney got mad at me when I saw him exercising with Mary Anne and he yelled at me. And they're like, mary Anne, who's that? And she goes she lets me play with her baby girl, Julia. So now we're in the interrogation room with this rapist Cheney, and he's being represented by renowned hattie Trevor Langen aka Peter Herman aka Personal Laundry spokesperson and mister merscall Hargatee.
I'm upset that he's taken this case cause it's with DNA. It's like it's open and shut. In walks Cabt with Katie. She walks into the room with this man and Cheney looks shook. He's like, uh and his lo players offer sexual misconduct a misdemeanor and there's no way, Cabot says, and he's like, come on, you don't want to embarrass Katie in court again. She never said no. She enjoyed it. She kept coming back for more. And Cabbot's like, one count of rape, two for Katie and he does ten years.
And Langan's like, we'll take our chances in court. And she's like, I thought you might say that, and she slaps down a bunch of pictures of kids that this sick fuck has fathered with employees he's been raping over the years, three of whom Three of these employees were underage at the time. We went through your financials and you've been paying the moms off for their silence. It's a very wealthy grocery store manager. She goes, now you're going to pay more, and she hands them a petition
for child support. There are five more coming. That's six kids. Each will receive seventeen percent of your chain of grocery stores, your personal fortune and everything you own. Your money is going to take care of Katie and her child for the rest of their lives. And I guess this guy is like part of the Gristities family or something. And Langan looks very defeated. He like walks away from his client.
Cheney's eyes are bulging out of his head. And Katie looks proud of herself for standing up to this monster, and behind the glass, her mom looks very proud of her as well.
And that's dick Wolf.
My baby's a rough episode, obviously, but I love that Katie's victorious in the end, and I guess is keeping her baby.
Yeah, And I'm glad this dude is what is it, seventeen percent per person now.
Yeah, seventeen percent per child? Wow?
Wow, But that's even more than one hundred percent seventeen times six. Yeah, it's one o two, So I guess she's rounding up all right, all right, so it's like probably sixteen point eight percent or something like that.
I do love when cabin uh lays down the law.
Yeah.
I love when she goes to a boardroom, you know, really gets the money out of these motherfuckers.
Fuck. So he's not going to jail, he's just gonna pay. He's I think he's all so good a going.
They're also going to take him to court and see what happens. But I think he should take the deal because but.
Is he like Nick Cannon, like he loves bothering or it's just like it happens, or he obviously gets something off of getting these people pregnant.
Yeah, or he just doesn't like to use condoms. And it's like, I'd rather pay for like pay for these kid, pay these moms off. I hope it's a successful grocery store chain because I want them to get all the money.
It's just tough.
It's like, I mean, we'll get into it with the real case, all right, So stay tuned. So this episode is based on the case of a net r Annette was a forty one year old mentally disabled woman who was driven home one day by a coworker and she was assaulted. But she didn't know the word for rape or what had happened to her in any capacity, and it has an IQ of sixty three, and this coworker pulled his car into a vacant lot forcibly, removed her clothing,
and then raped her. She came home, she cried all night, but said nothing to her parents and just went to work the next day. While at her job at a fast food restaurant, she did her job, but then the same man approached her, which led her to like fully break down and tell a friend. And so she explained to her friend what happened, but she said that the man urinated on her, and her friend then like had to explain to an.
Net what rape is.
H and the mentally disabled have the same protections as underage people, so like, even if there is actual consent, it's irrelevant because the person is incapable of giving legal consent. And a lot of these crimes are non forcible crimes, according to The New York Times in nineteen ninety three. But there are like there's a breach of trust or subtle coersion or submission to authority. So even if it's not like physical like overpowering, there.
Is like this subtle core that takes place.
And those that have diminished capacity are often very trusting, especially of people they respect, so they're often not included in all social circles and they're desperate for acceptance. And like above, even when a victim is capable of speaking about it, it's usually too late or too vague, and it doesn't meet the requirements of criminal prosecution.
So these are just like really tough cases.
And obviously we always talk about how predators know who they should.
Go after, you know, vulnerable, and.
So very few cases of sexual assault make their way through their co worts, and especially with a disabled population. Barbara Eggenhauser was the Chief of General Trials in the District Attorney's office and she was able to get a conviction for a neet's assailant September nineteen ninety three, but for sexual abuse, not rape, and it was not easy.
Barbara goes through why it's harder to get the conviction. First, there needs to be a witness that meets the threshold requirement where they must possess the intelligence and capacity to understand what an oath means and what the truth means. Another issue is the requirement of corroboration. New York state law states that a person cannot be convicted of a crime based solely on the victim's testimony if the victim
is mentally defective. This requirement used to be for all rape victims, but that has been removed even with a child testifying, and so it only exists for the mentally disabled.
So that's tough.
And then some people have issues with efforts to integrate the mentally so this is like very much about the mom and stuff. So, like, some people have issues with efforts to integrate the mentally disabled into society as a whole because it makes them more vulnerable to crime and exploitation. But most professionals that work with the special population disagree and they're like it brings them up like more risk and abuse because they're isolated and institutionalized. Like assaults still
remains really high. So no matter how you shake it, it's bad. It's like they're either in a center super isolated with tons of people that can abuse them, or they're out in the world, making them vulnerable to exploitation by you know, grocery store people, so you know, just fucking bad people everywhere.
Yeah, and then some people also think, so this is wild.
So some people think that mentally disabled population can't have feelings or don't experience emotions. So I guess there are people who just are like, well, they don't know what's going on, so they can't feel actual repercussions from a sexual assault. And for that reason, read an impact statement at the criminal trial, and so this is what she said, Dear judge, I would like Oh to get the maximum years in prison because he hurt me very badly. It changed my body and my life. After the rape, I
had to sleep with the light on. I had terrible nightmares. I cried so much he laughed, judge when they arrested him. I became very depressed and so sad. I tried to commit suicide with sleeping pills. I lost my job and I can no longer babysit for my sister's son. I had no feelings for a long time. I couldn't enjoy any birthdays or by any presents or anything. So it seems like she fucking gets what happened and had things
happened to her. Oh was convicted of six counts of sexual abuse and was sentenced to six months in jail what and five years of probation?
I mean, like, am I crazy that the punishment should be worse? Almost for days like, I don't well because it can't be right. It's abuse, and so six months so fucked up your base, Like these laws basically make it so that like you're setting it up to tell people like this is basically okay.
Yeah, witness, Yeah, there needs to be a witness to corroborate. You need to prove that you're call Like it is really fucked up. Now, as I was searching, there's a lot of information about this case. But while I was searching for information, this case kept coming up, like like this other case just kept showing up in Google.
So of course I had to take a look.
So this case is the glen Ridge rape case, and so I clicked on it and I read one line of the case and I remembered a TV movie that rocked my world. So Heather Matsarazzo were huge fans on this podcast of her work, big part of my childhood.
She was in Welcome to the.
Dollhouse, Saved Princess Diaries, and then in this TV movie I remember watching called Our Guys, Our Guys, Outrage at glenn Ridge. It also has an actor from an SVU season three episode called Silence, and it was like murder and abuse stuff in the church Eric Stoltz.
But Eric stult is a huge eighties like icon.
Oh yeah, okay, so some kind of wonderful Yeah yeah. I just know him from you know, him being like in a minister outfit. But wildly his episode is right after competence. Competence ended and then silence started, and I was researching this and I was like, oh my god. So I just felt like that was kind of cool, like his face just arrived. So this is what happened at this glen Ridge school. So it's a glen Ridge is a Jersey suburb of New York and a group of young men.
But they say suburb of New York, but it is in New Jersey.
And I feel like that, like New Jersey, you don't even like your cities are a suburb of New York.
You suck.
Okay, that's I want to go to the Jersey shore though, So a group of young men. I don't think New Jersey sucks. I don't like pumping my guests, and I like to be there. Okay, So a group of young men were there as a seventeen year old girl with an IQ of sixty four was sexually abused in nineteen eighty nine. Do you remember watching this movie or no?
No, okay.
So the boys were like the cool guy, best looking, best, like very athletic guys, and she was a young girl that was really desperate to fit in. So this girl was at carter At Park shooting hoops and someone promised her a date if she went to the Scherzers Twins house that was near the park, and she remembers that one of the athletes like put their arm around her,
and she thought it was like super romantic. But from the outside it obviously looks grim as fuck because you know, there's so there's thirteen boys that were there, seven stays. Six of them got the fuck out of there when they realized, like what was gonna go down at these Twins' house. So, like a lot of the community, there was a lot of arguing, like the community defended these people.
This will be we'll get into it.
But like a lot of the community was not only pissed at the assailants, but like all these boys who did nothing about it, Like they left, they knew it was fucked up, but didn't do shit. And yet they's celebrated members of the community and time and time again, you know, we use nonsensical evidence to judge people and like say that they couldn't commit a crime just because someone's good at baseball and.
Has good grades. Yeah, yea yeah.
For some reason, it's shocking to people that they're rapists.
Like I don't I.
Just don't understand. I don't understand that frame of mind. So, but this did cause a lot of mess in the community, and they keep begging. They're like, there's more to our town than this case, and it's like, no, there's not. So basically, these boys pushed her to masturbate in front of them and perform oral sex and then finally and this is what haunted me from the TV movie. So
this is like what stuck with me for decades. Is she was penetrated with a broom handle, and then a thirty three inch long baseball bat, and then with a stick. Oh Jesus, that's all in the movie. Yeah, the baseball It's like the camera's like on her face as it's happening, and all these guys like I just it was it.
Yeah, And after all.
This even happened to her, she was just lingering at the park waiting for the date that was promise to her. The whole thing was if you come do this, you'll get to go on a date with this guy. So she just continued to wait there. And so obviously when it went to the courts, it was the classic like it was consensual. So the accused never denied their involvement, but their lawyers said that no law was violated and
no crime committed. But the prosecutors argued that she was not able to give consent and she was criminally wronged. So the defense argued that she was a slut and not a sexual novice, and they even had the new Jersey rape shield law lifted so they can use her sexual past against her in court. They did all the classic es tactics, like boys will be boys. They're like
she came from a dysfunctional family. The boys were actually the victims of all this because their because of their hormones and they.
Were actually vulnerable to her.
And the defendants had their former high school girlfriend record the girl discussed and brag about sex and how she's so good at sex. And it's like if this girl who reads at a second grade level, she can't name like us presidents.
That was said by the La Times.
So it's like there's she's truly at a second grade level in her brain, and the like all these girls from the high school then recorded her being like, I love sex and I'm great at sex, but she doesn't know how to like.
Of course, she doesn't know what she's talking about.
And the thing is, she did have a trouble knowing the difference between love and sex, and her parents, counselor's teachers, and swim coach were all in on it and had been working on this with her. So she was molested at the age of twelve for the first time, and she could not grasp the idea that her body was private and that she had a right to say no. And her parents put her on birth control at age sixteen because they were scared she was vulnerable to peer
pressure and a sexual attack. And then the defense, of course used this as a reason that she was a skink because she was on birth control and these whatever, however dysfunctional these parents were, they actually seemed like very caring and it was a twenty three week trial. So the trial went from nineteen ninety two to ninety three.
She did take the stand and the prosecutor asked why she didn't ask the boys to leave her alone, and she said she didn't want to hurt their feelings, and she still considered them friends and didn't want to hurt er embarrass them. A jury of seven women and five men found Christopher Archer, Kevin Schurzer Kyle Scherzer guilty. They were convicted of rape March sixteenth, nineteen ninety three, after
eight days of deliberations. The fourth guy, Bryan Grober, was acquitted of the rape but found guilty of third degree conspiracy. Two of the others that were indicted pled guilty to lesser charges in exchange for their cooperation and then listen to this. The other one was a son of a glen Ridge police officer who investigated the case, So he got tried separately and no information about him exists.
Oh, we don't even know if he got busted or not. Nope.
Oh he Kathleen Stabler that shit, yep, yep.
I think he's gonna burn Do.
You think that kid's dad's gonna burn his license at a pizzeria?
In a few weeks, Archer and Kevin Schurzer were ordered to serve a fifteen year term. Kyle Schurzer was sentenced to serve seven years and they all kept appealing and fighting it and wildly. They were allowed to not be in jail during the whole time of appeals, and so they were found guilty in nineteen ninety three, but they did not go to jail until nineteen ninety seven, and the original attack was in nineteen eighty nine.
Jesus, And of.
Course people from the town in school and their friends still believe they're good guys who just made a bad mistake of putting a baseball bat in a person with diminished capacity.
Jesus, Like, I.
Don't know how you still defend Like, how do you defend someone doing that? I don't understand how you still think it's a good person. Okay, the photos of them in their suits and haircuts are wild. They don't they look like they're thirty seven years old. These are giant teens. But yeah, there's they served their time. They kept trying
to appeal. No one cared. Like in nineteen ninety seven and two thousand and four, the federal appeals court affirmed the conviction since they were not able to show there were serious errors in the trial or in the state appeals process. And the twins have Twitter and LinkedIn profiles and stuff and they're still on the registry. Wow.
Yeah, but since I don't have Twitter, I couldn't go on his.
Twitter to see what tweets he was tweeting, Like, you know, was he there on January sixth?
We don't know.
So if you guys want to look it up and let us nobody's tweeting and then you can watch that movie if you want to. You know, see Heather Matsaratzo. So yeah, that's obviously not what it was based on. But like there's not much information on a net or like the court case and this just kept popping up.
No, but that's interesting too because it is about like competence and you know, standing trial and what can be But.
At that the end of the day, the boys knew exactly what they were doing. And this idea that a town is still rallying around trying to find goodness in these school athletes, like even you put a bat in front and like it's so fucked up. People are so fucked They just love defending bad men.
Yeah, they can't get enough of it. But let's move into our post mortem, baby, since we don't have an interview today.
Well that was an episode. Yeah, sure, was, I mean darkness, but I don't know.
I mean, like, what do we think do we think Katie and her guy are gonna be okay raising this kid?
I'm nervous for them. It's so hard. It's so hard.
Hopefully they'll have all the support they need and they're gonna have tons of cash, and that's cash is king, baby, Yeah, cash is king.
Because this is very different.
But I always think about like, fuck dressing, Like if you're an Orthodox Jewish person, like that's hard to dress and look like you're wearing a turtleneck a t shirt on a skirt.
But if you're rich, you could put some Tory birch together, you know what I mean. And so I kind.
Of like this where, yeah it's tough, but you know, if we're getting some cash from this millionaire grocery owner.
I look too. On the way to the I forgot to tell you this.
When I was on the way to the radio studio today, I saw two Orthodox guys on lime scooters just breezing up Sycamore.
Yeah.
I'm never like a suit I've decided he right here and then in there, I will never be scooting.
I will never do an electric scooter. I don't care.
If I'm in Paris and someone's like, come on, I'm not doing it.
Why why are you so anti the danger?
The day, I don't want to take risks going fast through the streets, like I don't need that in my life. At night, I'll take I'll take a cab or a walk. I don't need it. I don't need it in my life. It's a it's a risk that I'm not willing to take. I did it one time and it was so fun.
But I was during the day West Hollywood, quiet streets. I wasn't on any major thoroughfairs. I was just on little streets and I was high.
I don't ask myself. It's just like, I'm not. What are the things like this?
Hoverboards? That's not for me? No, that's crazy. I can't those. I can't. I don't have that kind of balance. What am I? Shawn White? I can't. Oh wait, I have a huge sighting.
My friend and I went to dinner and we saw Aaron Paul in a booth with his two daughters or yeah, two kids. Just so fucking cute. He was nice, he was saying hi to everyone. We're like, does he own this place? We googled it. He doesn't, but he's probably in the neighborhood. Just he ran into friends. The kids
were adorable. He was just he was like the mayor in All Salmon, looking so lovely and smiley and we love, we love Aaron Paul, that Jesse Pinkman, and that came together in my mind because Aaron Paul.
And Sean White are friends.
Oh they are. They're like in the same friend group. Like there's photos of them intermingling on Insta and in the documentary, his whole family is with Aaron Paul watching it on a big screen like cheering, like they're good friends.
In the group. Well, they are.
Friends with Miles Teller and his wife. But that that's worrisome, Timmy. I think he's like a maga.
I think.
I think, unfortunately, Whiplash is maga.
I think let me let me google.
Mylashes, maga famously whiplash equals maga.
Miles Teller Republican question mark, is that what I google? Miles Teller Republican and gaze that's what my TikTok search. Yeah, it's a bunch of people upset that they found out that he's a concern.
I I don't know.
It is tough, but he is cool, so that's that's hard. But who else is in the friend group? That's the only people that I've seen that I am, you know, other winter athletes.
Listen back to this episode.
Yeah, it's just wild that the guys that committed the real crime in Jersey like are on LinkedIn, they have Twitter.
Like.
It is so weird to me because it is always like when when can the rapist move on? And it's like, I think pretty quickly, yeah, pretty quickly, although not the last big one that they snagged.
He's going to be.
His wife just filed for divorce. I don't know he was still married to her. She's enough to be you alum, wait, what episode is she not? She is the one in his in the one who's like you sorry, we're talking about Danny Masterson and Phillips, bj you. Phillips is in the one.
Where Vanity's bonfire. It says, yeah, she has.
Sex with the guy, and like then he's like the father of her kid and he's like denying that he knows her, and she's like, no, we we had an affair, and like he's he's like gaslighting and saying it didn't happen.
Like that's all I remember, really.
But there's also another couple missing a baby. It's a baby kidnapp from a playground leads to a twisted case of Lie's betrayal and infidelity.
Yeah, she like takes the baby back. Yeah.
Her name is Dia Nobuley and that's I always remember because the name is so wild. And the guy keeps being like, I don't know Dia Noble and it's like miss nobul like she has such a weird name.
Yeah, you know, not how to say Nobelay? You know her?
Okay, sir, you're done. I also think there's like an actress and she has kind of dainty art like she's weak.
But she claims that she used a base to murder someone. I think it's episode I Helped Guy.
She's in another one whatever, this episode the other episode Competence. That's the one we're on right now today, Kara, do you want to take us home?
Or what give us? So?
What would Sister Peggy? Yeah, let's get to what if you buy our sticker sheets? We have a what would Sister peg do? Sticker on it?
Yeah, those are available on tour only. At our tours, we have a lot of tours exclusive merch, so come for the show, stay for the fun, Merchu.
We are going to do what would say the scene?
Which employee volunteers to take photos for us?
And I don't know.
I've had such an experience with all of them. They all have different styles, different strengths.
Sometimes they're so bad at it, and sometimes it's like you.
Were born to do this.
Sometimes they're so good, and other times it's like, sir, have you ever used a camera before?
You know who was born to do it?
Fucking Philly Remember that woman at the Philly punchline. Oh yeah, we were like for John Legend.
You were obsessed with her.
You were like, if we get big enough, she's coming on tour with us as our permanent photo takeer.
We love her. Okay.
This week for our what was Mister Peg New segment? You know where we point you guys towards an organization, a blog, post, a book, a podcast, something to give you more info about what we talked about today, because Lord knows we cannot fit it all in. We would like to point you to THEARC dot org. Their mission is to promote and protect the human rights of people with intellectual and developmental disabilities and actively supports their full
inclusion and participation in the community throughout their lifetimes. They advocate for legislation, they hold events, They have tons of resources for those interested. You can donate or find out more information at the ARC dot org. And that's the rc THARC and that's that.
Thank you so much for that. I actually know this org and it is good. Next week we'll be doing Scorched Earth that season thirteen, episode one, Get hip to it. That's wow, first episode without Stabler, so that's pretty historic Scorched Earth.
Thank you so much.
Give us a couple stars and live your best and thank you so much for listening.
We love you guys, See you next week.
That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.
If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email. That's messed uppod at gmail dot com.
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Thank you so much to our producer Kac O'Brien, and to.
Our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner. And to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgareff, Daniel Kramer and everybody at exactly right media
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