Collateral Damages w/ Samantha Corbin-Miller

Of the law and order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on. These are our stories done Dune.

Hello, everybody, Welcome to That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast.

I'm Kara Klank and I'm Lisa Traeger.

And every week we talk about an episode of SVU, the true crime it's based on, and then we interview an amazing person from the episode.

And today is amazing. I feel like Tricksy and Katya.

Every time I get to say the same thing every episode. It feels special. It feels on our show and not yours. Yes, Mitch, Okay, I have Wild News. So you know I'm a huge BoJack Horseman watcher. I watch it before bed constantly. I've seen it dozens and dozens of times. It's one of my favorite shows. Raoul Esperanza is a voice on that show. And I had no fucking idea. Raoul Asparsa, Yeah, shut up, Oh.

God, they're gonna come for me. I've been calling Barbara. They're so mad. No, I love it well, Esperanza.

I think Esperansa means Hope, so it's exciting that that's a good last name for him to wait, So who is he on the show.

He's the little mouse that dates Princess Caroline, Amy Sedaris's cat agent manager cat. And he's a Stilton, so he's like the heir to the He's like a Hilton, so he's super rich and he's a mouse and they love each other and then his family comes from money.

Obviously they're like the Hilton's. He's like a.

Great romantic partner and Princess Caroline is just not fully ready for that kind of love.

But he is like a cutie little mouse.

And I was looking up someone else because I was like, whose voice is this? And it was Dave Franco And then I saw fucking Barbara and you were believe it Raoul Esperanza aka Barbara.

But I got I got really excited.

That sounds like a cute little tattoo, A cute little rich mouse voiced by Raoul Asparsa.

No if I got a BoJack tattoo, I have like a billion things before. Unfortunately, it is one of my favorite shows. I do have an original artwork from Lisa Handwall, who is the head drawer and designer of that show. And when I messaged her to my private art, I was like, I want this BoJack this that she goes, I don't.

Sell BoJack art. Relax, you can buy this slutty horse. And I bought the slutty Horse. But yeah, I bet she's holding on tight. Yeah, well, she can't sell BoJack

Oh God, yes, hot, because I've gone on.

A little anti Stabler train I would save for the past couple months. And that's over, Okay, that is over that Interview magazine photo shoot. He's sixty years old and he is the hottest person in the fucking planet.

And I just love the color of that green tank top he's wearing. I just think that's like such a hot shirt and like I'm.

Like I would wear it.

But also I love you, like I it's all great, it's all really good. Look the apple biting the pizza. I mean it's hot. Well I thought about you when I saw the pizza because I was like, this guy does not eat fucking pizza. This does not look like this at this age eating pizza. And you asked him on Twitter, what are your favorite like cheese and chocolate, and he was like, fuck that shit, Like I don't think he's eating pizza, but I bet I bet you, I bet you.

He had a spit bucket at the thing.

Yeah, but even like super fitness people, they do say, you know, cheat meals, cheat days, treat days are good for your body. So I'm sure he has like a pizza when he's at a Knicks game or something like. Maybe he seemed like he had a real reaction to it when you asked about it.

Yeah, I don't. No, it's true.

Well, because you know my fitness girl Mari that I follow NonStop I'm obsessed with.

She's always like, you.

Gotta have fun or nothing's worth it if you're not doing no of course. Yeah, you gotta live, you gotta live. Yeah, but thank you everybody who sent it to us. Obviously we had already been drooling over it, but we appreciate everybody thinking of us when they see a Zotti picture of Maloney.

Of course.

And I got a message from a gay man who was like, he knows exactly what he's doing. He wants to be like gay Daddy number one, and I go, he doesn't have to try. He had OZ. He was doing full on gay sex scenes before, like before anybody, I would say, he was full dick out in OZ. So he does you know he's the original Daddy.

I don't know.

He's fucking hot. It's amazing. I just can't believe him. Amb d Wong or sixty. It's truly amazing. It's really like, you guys, your best years are yet to come because these guys look fucking great, but.

You gotta work it.

Oh.

I went back to soul Cycle.

I was actually having a really depressed day last Saturday and I just like couldn't get out of bed and didn't want to do anything. And then on Instagram I saw Spicy Girl's ride four pm and guess what that got me.

Out of bed.

Yes, babe, I haven't been at soul Cycle since March twenty twenty. It was outside Masks and there was a listener there and she came up. She goes, they kept calling you, Liza, but I knew it was you, and we talked in the elevator and it was exciting to have a messed up listener at soul Cycle, all my interests colliding. And then I got to go to Phil's Coffee I'm a chain Berlin's favorite coffee in LA and I was like, I am I like, I okay.

I saw your story.

Yeah, you're living your im A Chamberlain fantasy and I love it.

Yeah.

I mean because I get back from New York being like I've ruined my life?

What happened? What did I do? And now I'm like, okay, I can I like it. I like it. I like it. La is good too. It is.

It's just I feel like a queen in New York and here I feel like a peasant. Like a peasant in New York. Everyone's clamoring to get to me. They're like, well, you do my show, And here people are like you can't go early.

Everyone else has too, and I'm like, do you know who the fuck? I am? Nobody? I am nobody. I live in a room.

Wait, do you want to talk about your new the new addition to your family, your new purchase.

I don't even remember what you got a car? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm looking around my home. I'm like, what did I buy? What did I get? I'm like, my smart sweets.

Okay, I did get a car. It was amazing. I got a Nissan CenTra.

It's burgundy, and I know it's a really basic name, but I'm calling her Ruby. It's all that's feeding my soul is to call her Ruby. She's so cool. I love having a screen.

I listened to podcasts and Miley Cyrus and I love driving. Cara lives three blocks away from me, and I have driven to her house now multiple times.

Any excuse to drive, I will do it. And it's it's a game changer.

I obviously thank you Kara and her husband for providing me with their car for so long to borrow, but it is a game changer to have your own car. Yeah yeah, I just wanted an avocado. Guess what, I went and got an avocado. You know, it's like, it's amazing. But I did get bullied at one at.

A car dealership.

Yeah, and then my friend slash manager negotiated my deal at another dealership for me, because she is truly a three sixty manager.

Yeah.

Like, but she told me she did this not because she's my manager, because she loves me so nice.

Well, and I think she also loves the art of the deal yes that is yeah, not Donald Trump, but who is that who wrote that?

Whatever? She just like loves making deals.

She's good at it, and her dad likes making deals. She's a deal maker and she got me a great deal. And I'm gonna I have to still do my pretty woman moment. I want to show up at the other dealership and say, big mistake, just go.

By and honk and lean out of the car. I like that.

But my fun story is there's a little container area. We'll post it on the ground, but there is a little hole.

There is a little hole area next to in the middle console. And I turned to this person and I go, oh, is this for like dipping sauces?

And he went, this is to put your key. And so.

Lisa thought that there was a allotted area next to the gearshift of the car where you.

Put your dipping sauces from fast food places.

It's too good because the shark tank does you know there are products that you clip on, So I was like, oh, they know we want to dip fries while driving safely while we're on road trips. But it is for your key, because my car now has a button. You don't put the key in the ignition, so you put Oh gosh. Those are so scary to me because I always feel like I've I've rented those before and I've left the car running. I've just like gotten out of the car and like left the car running.

Yeah, but it's cool.

It beeps if anyone's on the other east side of you, it lights up. It's been Yeah, the maps right there. It's really a game changer.

It's crazy because I feel like, even like six years ago, when I started looking for cars, like you could still get rolled down windows, you could still get like just no console screen.

And now it's like even.

Like the most affordable cars have like good shit, which is great. Yeah, it's really awesome, and it makes me feel like an adult. I mean, life's just more as a kid. I was like, of course I'll have a house. You know, you don't think, you don't think how hard it is to do stuff. Such a different view of my parents and anyone that like raises anyone in this country. I'm just like, I didn't realize how expensive life, and

I mean, he's good. The baby is good.

He's just barfing all the time, and but he's really good.

He's easy to deal with and he's good. I love him. So I had a playdate with Rosie.

I think the listeners would like, tell you yes, since she was requesting it. And when I said, when I was leaving, I was like, give me a hug, and she ran into my arms.

It was really cute, bounced, it was really cute. She truly loves Lisa. It's it's baffling.

I don't I mean not, there's nothing, but it's like it's just who they choose to glom Onto is so funny because it's like, but she does love that you gave her a Daniel Tiger.

Doll, so that might be part of it. Yeah, and my spirits. I also wanted to say.

We went to a mutual friend's birthday picnic at a park type situation. Yes, and through Kara's friends, I met Michael, the man who designed Simone's red nail dress and Shake Coola's body suit, and I cornered him. You can't corner someone because it's an open park, but I cornered him.

I found a way.

I looked back at one point and I was like, Michael, have you guys just been talking about drag race for forty five minutes?

And he was like, yep, but he seemed happy. He was happy.

I never stopped asking questions. I'm like, have you ever rejected a queen who wanted you to make her address?

And it was I just couldn't. I couldn't stop, but it was you know, and it's nice to be in LA and meet someone like that. Yeah.

No, And he's great and we'll hang out with him again. He's an old pal of mine since drag Con three years ago.

But listen.

Speaking of shake kul A, we just want to give you guys one last plug for our live show. It is tomorrow, June sixteenth, Wednesday.

Listen.

It's at seven pm Pacific ten pm Eastern.

You can figure out your time zone on the internet.

But if you can't make it, which is totally understandable, when you buy a ticket for a ten dollars ticket gets you a link that is good for a week. You can watch it, you can pause it, you can stop and start, go do your thing, come back to it, watch it four times whatever. So just saying if you're like, oh my god, somebody wrote I have my Shakespearean D and D game that night, Okay, go do that. But you also can watch it another time and still get

I don't know.

I just hope you guys know that this is pushing the limits of my skills. And I am so nervous but excited, but it is so hard. I like, I'm like, what kind of camera do we need? I yeah, but just so you know, we're working hard for you guys. Okay, so at least just come to the damn live show, you know, watch it later. All right, let's get going because we have a great episode and interview and everything today.

So let's start it off, all right.

So we are doing Collateral Damages season seventeen, episode fifteen, and we open up on a promotional event at a Brown Sugar barbecue sauce. I don't know if it's the restaurant or the sauce, but we're at a barbecue joint. And I'm curious to know where they film this because I feel like I.

Have been here. It felt like the Brother Jimmy's in Union Square to me.

That's what I wrote, I go to that Union Square place. That's what it felt like to me. But I cannot be positive. How many other multi level barbecue joints.

Yeah, they're in New York.

Yes, it is multi level. Dad done comedy downstairs. There are multiple rooms downstairs. Oh, I did comedy behind the glass doors of like their fake garage. Okay, so we've both been to this Brown Sugar barbecue and there's an old man there.

He's a boxer.

He has a giant belt buckle and I really can't focus on anything but the belt buckle. I mean, he also has a gray little patch of hair in his hair, so I looked at that as well. And then Rollins comes in and we could tell she's undercover.

Her name is Crystal.

You could always tell she's undercover because she's wearing like a leopard jacket or something like wild that she would never wear.

Yeah, she's always like, okay, we need someone to flirt and be a slut. Rollin's and she's ready to go, and she's like giant loose curls half up, half down, prom two thousand and three style, like this is what you woreed a problem twenty years ago. And Brown sugarman thrilled to see her. He's like Crystal, and she's with a super young looking teen blonde girl who I'm going to assume is undercover.

Well, and assume means I have seen this multiple times. I know who it is. She's on the cover.

Basically, the story is that this is Crystal's niece Amber, and her mom has been sick, so her aunt wanted to take her on a fun time to meet Teddy Hawkins, a boxer who now you know, invests into restaurants, which is a usual pro athlete move. You invest in restaurants or car dealership or become a spokesperson. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I felt like very George Foreman at the beginning of this, not that George Foreman has committed any crimes, just that he is.

He did take over our world.

I feel like, I guess he changed the way we lived. And Benson and Finn are sitting at a table watching Careese's at the bar.

He calls him big Teddy.

I liked that, And then so we know this is like a big operation. They're all there checking it out, and Teddy gets Long Island iced teas for his blonde friend.

This just suddenly made me want a Long Island iced tea.

I feel like I want that to be my first drink when I start getting drunk again.

Okay, I could do that for you. Okay, that's the reminder. Actually, so two years ago.

The pandemic obviously fucked with timelines, but my sister came.

Basically, she had a Long Island iced tea.

We went to a giant theater where I was doing a charity event and when we.

Walked in, the security was like, who are you?

What's happened. I'm like, I'm on the show. You got to be nicer to us. And then she puked in a trash can and.

I'm on Long Island and it made it harder to be respected and like a producer to come and grab me the securities, like we can't let these old bitches puking like be let into this charity event. Shout out to Chris Red it was his show. So this is my favorite.

It's a giant necklace that Rollins is wearing is the camera and it's just.

Like a lu Adella sep style necklace. And I call.

This the Simpsons rule because like, I'm Homer wears a giant hat into the Quickie Maar and records.

It and it's just I love.

I just love hidden cameras in giant, giant things that are obviously not like the other things.

I had a friend who was like sort of going like going undercover for a weird thing. I don't want to get into it because I don't want to get her in trouble. It's kind of specific. But she wore like a button cam. She wore like a cam, like a button on a shirt that.

Was up camera.

Okay, I mean we're gonna have some questions. Okay, you're and I am wondering how long has she been undercover?

Because he trusts her, so yeah, it is like she's known him for a while in a weird way.

Yeah.

So Teddy takes the girls downstairs and he's like, come to the office, like, let's have a good time. And in the office, Teddy asked the niece like how old are you? She does say sixteen, so he knows that she is sixteen years old.

This does not stop him.

And then it like classic like oh you want to be a model, I'll take photos of you. Okay, get in the stretch a little, open your blouse. And then Finn is watching this all on an iPhone upstairs and he's snacking and then she takes off her bra and then I really didn't love this, but he starts, I would be fucked if I loved it, but he unbuckles his belt buckle and get and says, get on your knees, little girl, and I hated it.

And then a man takes out her gun.

And says NYPD, and the rest of the squad comes in and he's being taken in for attempted rape.

So this is awesome.

And Rollins is the senior cop I guess at this point, so she tells the teen passing officeer like, hey, honey, stay in this job long enough and all your heroes die.

So cool, And then it is the credits, baby, and we return with the treat of all treats. We have Susie smn love Teddy's lawyer, and we're obsessed with her. Obviously she's a hero for I don't know, Jews with curly hair.

No, for everybody. She is comedy legend.

So Cariese and Rollins are the detective duo in charge here, and Teddy says that his plan was he was testing Rollins and he was collecting evidence and just testing how far they would go before he made a citizen's arrest.

And I love an outlandish live okay, Teddy, Teddy, Teddy, come on, guy, guy, come on.

Barbara and Benson are spying behind the mirror, and they're discussing what's up, and then we have Josh Pius pay Us whatever. Josh comes in as Hank Abraham, and Hank is usually a fucking asshole, but we get a little twist from him, and.

He's like, oh, great job, you guys. You got him on attempted rape. What about child porn? What's the child porn thing?

And Benson said, Taru found some bad websites on worker servers, but they can't prove that he went to them.

And Hank's like, okay, okay, okay, Well, why don't we make an example out of him. Good work.

Let's do a purp walk splash him on cable news and like, great job. So Jenson and Barbara are shocked because they never get compliments from him. He's usually an asshole, so what's up? But you know, maybe he hates Teddy and I.

Don't know, maybe he's like racist on top of being an asshole.

Yeah.

Oh, I was thinking like more gambling, like if Teddy's up but Teddy's retired.

Nothing makes sense, but it is. Yeah, everyone's confused.

So back into the interrogation room, Amanda brings up a great point and she goes, listen, the girl told you she was sixteen and you kept going, So what's up with that?

Bro?

And then Benson walks in and says, hey, get ready for your Purp Walk and threatens.

Him like we're going to get the news. You're going to be everywhere and everyone's going to know what's up with you. Shame on you.

And so he starts whispering to Susie because he knows something's up. And also Amanda has like beautiful bangs and a tight little bond.

It's kind of my dream.

Look like I love a messy bun in the back with like cute Cinderella bans. So anyways, Teddy says, if you don't get to the Purp Walk and all this publicity for me, I will expose an online pedophile ring. And then it stops and then we go I I just could.

Not care less.

But we go to Senior Dodds and Junior Dodds at the gym and I don't care.

I don't care. I don't care.

Like Daddy Dodds is like, oh, I can get you higher, climb the ladder, do what.

I say, and he's like, I don't know, I will this be you. So they're just having a weird fucking relationship. Grow up, stop listening to your dad. We go back to Teddy and he speaks the third person, which I think is psychotic, and he goes Teddy wants to do the right thing. His lies keep getting better and better. Basically, he says, people send me stuff because I'm so popular, but I don't look at them, but I know what's up.

So he's incredible. He should I want to play two truths and a lie with this guy.

So Teddy also says like, I don't think you should arraign me or anything, because then the pedophiles will know I've been arrested, so.

Like you should wait to announce that I've been arrested.

And also, the juicy stuff gets posted right after midnight, so they're going to do stings on all these online pedophile people in the middle of the night. And then we cut to you know, knocking down doors. So they're arresting pedophiles right as they're on their computers doing pedophile stuff. And then one guy, one of the pedophiles, is like, you can't be in here, and Finn just goes shut up, and it was awesome. This is actually an awesome iced

Like he doesn't know.

So Kreese finds a mode like all these modems and tech things inside of a closet and he explained. The old man explains, Oh, my neighbor is using that. I don't know what it is.

And they follow the cables and basically all the modems are being re routed to next door. Diabolical. Okay, this is this is intense. So next door who lives there? The old man says, us, you know, family with two kids. They knock on the door. It's pippacockx.

Okay, and Rollin's is like counselor So then they have to do a cover story because they respect Pipacox. She is a defense attorney that we've seen and she works.

With child services.

So she has like probably one of these like harder more like heroic law jobs right where she's like helping kids in the system. The actress who plays Pipacox is named Jessica Phillips. We've seen her a couple of other times.

She was in I think she was in Institutional Fail really quickly. Yes, she's in the handful of stuff. We like her.

She and all accounts. She's not like you know, one of the defense attorneys were like this slime boll. Yeah it's not one.

She's a cannon correct. Yeah.

So Rollins says a quick, like quick story and was like, ah, something we need signals like burying the lead like she's not telling her what's up. And they asked like, hey, do you have a computer we can use in some Wi Fi? And she goes, of course, and she opens these French doors and it's Hank Abraham.

He's married to Pipa Cox. This is insane.

Who would marry this asshole, especially someone is like nice and dedicated to helping people as Pippa And so everyone's like deputy commissioner and he like closes the pedophile stuff really quickly, and there's a family photo on the background of his computer, so you know SVU is doing some they're making a point. Okay, he's watching children be abused, but the background of his computer is his family with his and his children asleep in the next room, like

He's like, I know you try to fuck with my life all the time, but this you gotta do this, And Tucker says I never liked him. Olivia goes, no, one fucking likes him. He's an angry prick.

They explain to Tucker that you know, Pippa, his wife, protects children. This is really weird, and Benson is going to give him some dignity and says like, let's k not cough him in front of his kids. We're going to like be nice to him. So they go back

True, and then he says call he tells Pip, but like, call Kressler, tell him to meet me at the precinct. So he's getting one of the scumbag attorneys to help him, So Roger Kresler is the attorney. Hank is shocked when the door opens, like to lead him out and there's twenty five cops just waiting to search the house, and he goes, really, you're doing this to.

Me, but whatever.

So then Pippa sees Olivia and gets really happy, not happy, I would say relieved, like oh, thank god you're here. No one is giving me a straight answer, and Benson is trying to be compassionate, but they have work to do.

She goes, we need to search your house.

You need to pack your bags, take the kids and leave and that's the only way to do it.

And then the way out, the little kid.

Is like, oh, a doggie and starts petting the dog and Fin's like, I'm sorry, you can't play with the dog right now, because, as we all know, working dogs.

Cannot be chatting. They cannot be playing. They have a job to do. Working dogs. Working dogs are working dogs. They got shit to do. You cannot be chatting. They can't.

They have to be so serious at work. That's like hard.

Whenever I see a service dog, it takes a lot of a lot of effort not to want to touch them because they're usually really nice Golden retrievers, and who doesn't want to touch.

A golden retriever.

And then this was a creative move I've never seen before where the screen becomes like the viewer of an old school video camera and it says like reck with low battery. And they basically have to record everything because it needs to.

Be by the book, by the book, by the book.

If you want to play a drinking game, this episode put by the book on this they say, so many times you will get wasted. But they know that he knows all the legal mumbo jumbos, so like they have to make sure everything's by the book. So they're rolling, they're looking for stuff, and they find two flash drives that are taped to the bottom of his underwear drawer.

That is the money evidence.

Right.

So Hank and Kressler are.

In the fish bowl while Barbara, Tucker, and Benson are in the spy room and they find out that the flash drives came back and it's hardcore pedophile porn. Barbara's trying to poke holes and make sure that the case is air tight and talk, and then Tucker drops a bomb where Hank is using the same password for his pedophile stuff as his NYPD password. So things are just getting more and more deep with evidence where there's no way to kind of lie your way out of this.

She would have been like, do you have a warrant? You know? Like yeah, she led them right to him. Yeah.

And then Pipa also has to bring the kids to be interviewed, and she's kind of fighting it a little bit and is in denial and wants to be there and Benson says, no, you know, that's not how interviews work. So she's really going through everyone's going through it. You could tell everyone is having a lot of feeling, even the cops, Tucker, everybody.

She's really good in this episode, this actress, I feel like, because you're really feeling like what it would be like to be blindsided by the behavior or like the crime that your spouse, Like this person that you're sharing your life with is committing right, Like she's really You're really like seeing the.

Panic and then the anger and the frustration. Like she's really good.

Yeah, And then Hank is very much like this isn't what you think. This is a political takedown. He's in denial, PIPA's scared, everyone's in denial, honestly. So Hank is now trying to like blame the modem and that the porn just popped up and exactly when the detectives came in.

He's embarrassed it'll never happen again.

And Tucker's not having it, and this is honestly the sexiest I've ever thought. Tucker was like, I'm very attracted to him. His voice is really deep.

He leans in, he's about to I don't know, he's really hot here. And then so he reveals that the same username and password was on the night before for over an hour and night hours in the past week.

Like, this is criminal, and I understand that.

But even if this was like full on legal missionary playing vanilla softcore poor, nineteen hours a week is a lot.

Yeah, that's why you have a full time job and kids, and yeah, you're you're carving out a lot of time for porn and that's a lot.

Yeah.

So then you know, Hank is still in denial, and then Barbara's like, well, what who are you going to blame for the flash drives we found? And that's when Hank, I think, realizes he's been gotten because he great acting. This dude fucking acts his ass off and you can tell, like and the camera angles like the director did a great job as well, Like everything's closing in on him and he looks panicked and worried and it's just like

So Rollin's is with the.

Little girl and careeses with the boy, and they really they really try to tease you here, but thank god the kids are not being molested by their father. But they really like push you to the end and everyone is like, oh thank god.

At the end, they're like, my daddy does one bad thing. He yells at me sometimes and you're like no. So they're at court at there's court games happening. The judge is explaining to Hank like everything that's about to happen, like what the bail is that if he gets bail, he has to be at home. He can't be with his kids, like all the rules and just breaks it all.

Down to him.

And then after that court procedure, the like on the way out, PIPA's walking out and every people like the media are screaming.

Is your husband a pedophile? Which is rude?

Did you did they expect her to stop an answer like I don't understand.

I mean, the media is extremely rude. They're extremely rude. I told you, Like did I tell you? One time?

I was in the media box at the VMA's because I did social media for MTV and I actually I don't want to brag. But I posted the first photo of Beyonce announcing her pregnancy with Blue Ivy. I tweeted it for the MTV account and it was like retweeted like a million times or something. I was there next to paparazzi and people would come out, and I know this is different than like being at a court, but still people would come out.

They were so excited.

They were like on the VMA's red carpet, people from like MTV shows and stuff, and they'd go who are you? Like they would just yell the rudest questions Like I was like, I am with scum.

Right now, Like I remember thinking these are the worst people. Listen. They didn't.

That's the pr person's fault. There should have been a paper passed out to everyone with everyone's names.

On it for our listeners who do our drinking game. That is a place to drink. Because Kara just revealed another.

Job that no one knew.

She had had so many jobs, it is insane.

What is your life? I didn't know about that job?

That was why one claimed to Fay was like I was like I was on the walkie with my boss who was an asshole, and I go Beyonce just said she's pregnant.

He goes, how do you know?

And I'm like, cause I'm a fucking person with eyes and she's cradling her belly and everyone's going fucking insane. And he was like, you shouldn't tweet it until you know, and I was like, I'm tweeting it, and I just tweeted it.

I was like, you're the worst person. Did he admit his mistakes?

Never?

He didn't try to.

He did kiss me on the cheek when the ratings were really good the next day, and I was really annoyed.

Geeuz, yeah he sucked.

So Pipa and Benson start fighting after the media circus and Pepa's.

Like, how how did you do this to me? There could have been so many other ways?

And it's like they didn't know as your house, bitch, like they.

Thought it was your neighbor. Like, no, this isn't a takedown, this wasn't planned. No one wanted to come into your house in the middle of the night, and no one wanted your husband to be a pedophile.

I mean no.

And she's obviously lashing out and try to place trying to place blame other places, you know, like yeah, because you don't want to just look at it and be like, oh, I've just been living with a pedophile for X amount of years or whatever.

So Pipa then says that she's been asked to go on leave for her job, pending a transfer where she can no longer work with any children or any victims of sex crimes. She screams, and she's like, I'm not all right. I'm not okay, the kids are not all right. It has to be paidback. Who put you up to this? What else can it be? And Benson is just like Pippa and she starts crying and falls into Benson's arms as she cries, and it's a touching moment between them, but I mean.

It's the moment she really realizes, like take away all these other like accusations and all these other theories, like and it's just the theory that's right in front of you, which is that your husband is guilty.

You know. Yeah, it's tough.

So Barbara visits Hank and Crestler at the house and Hank is now like clawing it a different way to deal with this, and he's like, honestly, thank you for arresting me.

I needed it. I'm an addict. I need help.

I was, you know, trying I need to fight it, but I was too ashamed. I'm speaking to a rehabilitation center and Barbara goes, nah, bro, it's not that simple, like it's not gonna happen. Hank says, no, I know these are serious issues. I have worked to do, but I just need help. And Barbara's like, no, like even if I tried to give you a deal, the FEDS will not go And Hank says the Feds. He goes, yes, you're a man in the government, Like, of course you're

And Crestler goes, no, you did bad things, like I just don't know how. He's in denial, like, bro, come on, you're in the industry, like you know what's up.

There is no deal to be made you have. I mean it's hard.

It's like fully privileged fuel denial as well, because it's like I couldn't possibly be going to jail.

I'm me, I'm a powerful white man, Like what you know like he's basically just like there's got to be a way around this. It's like, no, dude, there's not.

Yeah, nineteen hours a week, that's hundreds, if not thousands of hours a year, like sorry. So Hank finally is like, how did you get onto me? Someone turned me in to save their own ass? And Barbara says yes, So Hank, you know, he, like I said, he understands the business, the industry.

It's not a business. I mean, it shouldn't be a business. It's a business. I don't know.

But pedophiles also aren't trustworthy, Like you can't just be trusting other pedophiles, right, Like of course someone's going to turn you into to save their own asks. And Hank knows who it is. He goes, oh, it's Teddy Hawkins. And he goes, I can give you secrets too, and Barbara says, we don't need anything from you. You are bad. So Barbara says, we don't really actually need anything from

I would have done something about it. Like he truly is so deep, Like what is that compartmentalized?

He does not understand.

And Barbara says, what we're all thinking, like, you know the kids you're watching in the like you're watching crime scenes of children.

You understand that you are they're not acting.

Yeah, and Hank keeps me like I was never in the room when it happened. I was a parent.

And Barbara says, there's new duke, keep calling Barbara Barbara. You know that. No, I didn't realize that. No, I didn't hear it at all this whole time.

Yeah, most of this episode, and in another episode you did a couple of times, but I was like, she's stopping. And now this episode it's really we're on a Barbara train, Like okay, yeah, thank god, I'm not calling him babar because that's what I think about every time. Um, okay, So basically, Barbara, sorry, Barbara, Barbara, barb Barbara. So Barbara says, listen, there's no deal to be had. Hank says, there's always a deal to be had.

Barbara says, focus on your family, because your friends are gonna ditch you if they already haven't, Like, everyone's gonna turn their backs on you. Plead guilty, serve your time, and spare your family any more pain. Hank says, please leave me alone and kicks Kressler and Barbara out and says get out, get out, get out, And he's just on the couch and pissed and has to think about it.

Oh, I love what you. I love your notes, Liza, so funny. Benson and in a sling baby Dodd.

So Benson is with baby Dodds and he has a ling on and Benson has a really cute beanie and winterwear to the max. Like I'm obsessed with Benson right now, and they're talking about Dodd's future.

I don't care. Do you care?

No?

I don't care.

I mean I don't understand. I mean, did I shed a tear when Brad Garrett killed him?

Sure? Yeah, that's what I'm wondering.

If like that, they're they're putting these scenes in to sort of get try to get us to care about him, so that knowing that they were sort of going to have this climactic like horrible tragic death for him.

So it's like, but he wanted to stay with SVU.

He was like an SVU at heart, you know, like so that it makes it like sadder when he I don't know, I'm spitballing.

I obviously wasn't in the writer's room, but like you know, it didn't work for me. I just don't care about the Dodds thing, like I don't. You're a grown man.

Stop listening to your daddy, you know, I like grow up. And then after Benson, you know, has to do college counseling to Dodds. She is busy and has to do some social work with Pipa. And you could tell PIPA's going through it. She's in a sweatshirt, her hair's in a bun, and she's drinking white wine. She's like pandemic Chic before pandemic Chic existed.

She's in a hotel.

She misses her kids, you know, she sent the kids away to beat with grandparents, and.

Which is a good, good call.

And PIPA's mother is blaming her, which is so sad. But she's like, you do this for a living, how did you not suspect it? Which, of course that's how we should all be, Like, we would all be thinking that, And Benson goes, men who do this have to hide.

It, and they get very good at it.

Pipa has been you know, slept with him for twelve years, and the sucks, the sucks. She's yeah, she calls herself stupid.

Of course she's going to think that, and there's really nothing to say to make her feel better. It's like, these kind of things make me really happy that I have, like all of my husband's passwords.

I he doesn't know how to hide anything.

He's so bad at keeping secrets or like he can't like hide a secret when he goes to McDonald's, you know what I mean, Like he just I feel blessed that I am fully I could steal his identity in a minute and like move to Mexico.

Well, it's kind of what Coco says about iced Tea. Someone asked her, how do you feel that iced Ty plays video games so much? She goes, at least I know where my man is. I don't care.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Benson and Barbara are drinking scotch in the office discussing the case.

So you know, this case is really affecting them because they're going to the Hard Booze Hard Booze. In the office, Barbara gets a call that Hank Abraham has slashed his wrists.

Commercial break, Okay.

Then they're in the hospital and Pippa's there and lets Benson know that he's gonna make it. She found him on the bathroom floor and she stopped in to just grab some things for the kids. And she didn't stop in, he would be dead, no, But Pippa says she doesn't want to lose him, and she wants you know, she wanted to save him. So the Dods met her at the bar and they're listening to Susie Esmond on the screen of a television talking about Teddy's case on the

Listeners you've caught on. But it makes sense.

The Hank Abraham cameo in the top of the episode, rushing in being like any child poorn information, you know, so we know why he was interested in nailing Teddy. So again we get the Dods, Baby Dods, Papa Dodds, and he's like, I want to stay at SV and the dad goes, come on, move up the ladder, and he goes.

No, I'm going to help people. So we're at Supreme Court. It's Sunday, February fourteenth, so it's Sunday at court, which is always weird, and it's Valentine's Day, which is one of my favorite holidays.

Hank's eye are red. Is it an honor Valentine's Day? Maybe? No, I'm kidding. He's upset.

His eyes are like creepy red, they're like really really bloodshot.

Yeah, he's been crying.

He pleads guilty, Thank goodness, He does a speech, he apologizes, he says sorry, that's an apology. So then Barbara asks for a deal that I'm kind of shocked by, which is he would get four years per count. But he asks the court for Hank to be able to serve it concurrently, which means he's only getting a four years in prison, which I guess Hank's right.

There's always a deal to be made, damn.

Yeah, and he's obviously going to serve it in protective custody and then be on the registry for a minimum of twenty years. Pipa and Benson watch and she says, he's still my husband and we still have two children, and Benson says.

I get it, you know, I get it.

And then we leave the courtroom and I'm really glad we get a nice little sexual ending. Tucker and Benson are walking in like super cold weather and they're going to go have a night cap, and they link arms and they walk on off together, starting their romance.

That's the beginning of Tucson. Is that what the fans call it?

And I think that's what the fans call it.

But yeah, it's weird that he only got four years, but I'm glad he got caught. And I wonder if the other pedophiles that they caught that same night are going to get.

A deal like this. Yeah, right, Yeah, it's interesting.

So yeah, collateral damages. Let's hear what's up Kara.

First off, I want to just talk about how when we pick an episode of this show to do, sometimes it's like very obvious what the crime is, you know, like there's obviously a Woody Allen episode, There's obviously a Michael Jackson episode. Like there's just some that are just the crime is screaming at you. But then the others we have to look a little bit more deep to find like what cases connected based on like the time the episode came out, like what was in the press, similarities,

This is the Jared from.

This is the Jared from Subway episode, which I did not know that that needs to be updated in the wiki fandom for SVU.

If you're one of their editors, please get on it.

First of all, Lisa I'd like to ask you about your relationship with subway.

Have you are you?

Have you? Are you a current subway enjoyer? Are you a past subway enjoyer. I was hoping we would talk about her subway orders.

Okay, so I get the tuna or the veggie patty, which are really weird choices, I think, But as a child, I think it's because my sister's husband was kosher, so that's why I got the non meat stuff. So I love tuna because I love mayonnaise and it's amazing. And then the veggie patty with sweet onion sauce is so fucking good. And I love that Italian urban cheese bread. I love chips, I love sometimes getting a power rate. I love subway, but I have not been in a few years. I would say, Yeah.

I was gonna say, I haven't been to a subway in probably like ten years. But in my hometown growing up, there were like almost no chains, Like we had a Starbucks and a Duncan that were like going at each other for the coffee, and then Subway was like the only chain. And it was like as a high school or middle school or.

That was like what I could afford so I would.

I was there all the time. I fucking loved the BLT. I loved the BMT. So you're steering clear of the deli meats. I'm getting as many deli meats as possible into my mouth.

Did you see the news though, sorry, that the tuna is not tuna? It came out like two months ago. Oh I saw that. Yeah, okay, just making sure I forgot Thank you for reminding me. Yeah I did. They said that tuna wasn't tuna.

Yeah, what is it?

A mixture of various concoctions is literally I can't Oh my god, that's what it says.

The commercials were huge, like the five dollars foot long that changed the game of restaurants. I mean, I don't know, like that deal was huge. Yeah, well we'll get into what actually got them huge.

Okay.

So, speaking of loving subway, we all know the biggest lover of Subway of all time was famously Jared Fogel, who was a Subway spokesperson and noted sex offender who became a massive punchline for a few years. And I kind of knew this story. I'm sure we all know the story, but like I didn't. I just never took a deep dive into it.

So this is that.

Jared Fogel is, unfortunately one of us, a chosen person, a Jew.

I didn't know that.

You didn't know Jared Fogel was a Jew. I don't think of Jared as a Jewish name. I'm married to a Jared. You're right, maybe it's the focal. Maybe the Fogel should have tipped me off, but I wasn't sure. He was born and raised in Indianapolis. I've never even been there, but one of our best friends is from there, and I do so I do feel like I know a little bit about it.

I've been to Indianapolis. Yeah, yeah.

Her parents took me to a Greek restaurant on the water and it was delicious. I also one time was booked to perform at a venue and then they canceled the shows because Kelly Clerkson was going to be there instead.

Oh, you got bumped by Kelly Clarkson. I so.

Jared was a student at Indiana University at Bloomington, and he weighed, you know, four hundred and twenty five pounds.

He was very overweight, and this was concerning to him.

So he began a self style diet where he walked to Subway and only ate their low calorie options, eliminating your and my favorite condiment, mayo, eating smaller portions, and he started exercising more. He ended up losing two hundred and forty five pounds in eleven months, more than half his bodyweight.

So I forgot who told me this.

I don't know if it's someone that went to school with it or whatnot, but they said that this whole story is a lie. And he went to subway because it was close to his house and he was just lazy.

No, it was it was close to his house.

Actually, like I read in another thing that he was that it was like a bill. He moved off campus and there was a subway nearby, so he would walk there. But I don't think it was like he was walking ten miles through snow getting steps like. I think he just was walking a subway and getting the but he eating the low calorie meals. He ended up losing, you know, half his bodyweight. And then someone who lived in his dorm wrote an article about him in the school paper,

We got to start using him somehow.

By the way, I was in a trivia one night where they asked what is the most populous franchise, like that has the most franchises, and everybody thought it was McDonald's, and I think it is Subway in the world. Yeah, because it's easier to squeeze in. You don't need a full kitchen, you know what I mean.

Like McDonald's you need a lot of space, but Subway you can throw one in the back of a gas station and a train station.

Where I've always had two booths. Ours had two booths. It wasn't like a sit down like huge Gym was tiny. You're right, it was like slammed in next to a Chinese restaurant. So these franchises are like, why aren't we using this guy? So they start this whole campaign with

That in the year two thousand?

Yeah, but also do you whenever I see old stuff that's not that old? I think of Sex and the City Season one, like it looked so old, like when you look at it now, it just looks like fully someone's like, I don't know, I.

Knid my friends Marty and Sarah and Chicago. When I visit, we'll get high and watch nineties commercial compilations on YouTube.

Not to brag, but I do cool things. That's really fun.

So anyway, this sparked like a whole slew of commercials were Subway focused on being kind of like the healthy fast food option. They focused on Jared, they focus on some other people's stories, and the original spots came with a disclaimer that said the Subway diet combined with a lot of walking worked for Jared. We're not saying this is for everyone. You should check with your doctor before

He's on the Sharknado movies.

He just like started to become like unfortunately, like the MyPillow guy or Tan Mom. He just starts to become like a cultural person, you know, a person in our culture.

And then he.

Would tour around with his sixty two inch waist pants now down to a thirty four and just like show everyone the.

Pants if you remember that.

And then in two thousand and eight they did this whole campaign and paired it with his tour to pants where he routinely visited elementary schools.

And now you'll see why that's creepy later.

Then, around two thousand and eight two thousand and nine is when we started seeing a little bit less of Jared and commercials because we started focusing more on the.

Five five five dollar for long right, yeah, Lisa your favorite?

Yeah, but I would have to split it with someone because who can eat a hole full long?

No?

Yeah, and less, like I said, unless you're doing when I was so broken college, Also one year I wanted to stay for graduation and like party, and I was my mom was like, yeah, but I'm not giving you any money, and I was like okay, And I just ate six inches for lunch and six inches for dinner and that was like my health for a week. Even though they leaned away from Jared a little bit for the five dollars foot long, by twenty thirteen, he'd filmed.

Almost three hundred commercials for some way.

What Yeah, and he was reportedly worth fifteen million dollars, which you know, I think that's from CelebrityNetWorth dot Com, which we all know is bullshit, but that's like that's the general what A lot of articles have said, that's kind of what around his net worth. And he was credited for increasing subway sales by thirty three to fifty

Girls to her.

He had told her that, and this was this woman that he just met, and she just was very good at getting him to open up and say everything that he was into and everything he had done. And so she brought him to the FBI and then became an informant for them. She recorded all their conversations, their texts, she wore a wire, and then she brought all this information to the FBI. But ultimately he couldn't be prosecuted because.

Of lack of evidence.

I guess like even though she got all this info, there just wasn't enough evidence. Maybe there weren't like names of victims or I don't know, but that two thousand and seven investigation is what got him on the radar, but he wasn't ultimately prosecuted for any of those crimes. Cut to April of twenty fifteen, the director of the

To know they were on their way.

Yeah, But then it's like delete all your shit and move to Mexico, bro, Like, I know how you just sit there and continue doing pedophile games.

I know you're right, You're right.

It's really it's really nuts. So he gets arrested. Ultimately, authorities found that Taylor and Fogel had traded sexually explicit photos and videos of children, some as young as six in these videos and photos, which is horrible. Of course, Subway cut ties with Jared Fogel the exact same day.

So this man is very sick.

Mill's lawyer said that she told Subboy's corporate about the texts, and Subway said, because Fogel was not a Subway.

Employee, there was no violation. I don't know how he's not.

Maybe he works for the pr company that Subway hires, but he is the face of your company.

This is really bad.

The FBI found text messages to a woman in which Fogel said he would pay big quote unquote if she could procure fourteen year old children and said that he quote unquote craved underage Asian girls. And in these texts, he also expressed sexual interest in young boys, and a recording exists where he does describe.

To a friend a sexual accounter with a male child.

So he, I just I feel like it's you don't always hear about it being pre pubescent and post pubescent, Like he's into both.

It sounds like, uh, and I just don't think you hear about that as much.

It's usually like you're into small children, or you're into like just young girls, but that have boys that have developed past puberty. There were a couple of other allegations against Fogel, like he propositioned a girl in Vegas at like a convention, but Subway barely investigated it, and.

Then they assumed.

It was assumed that when he met his second wife, Katie McLaughlin, that this would curb the pedophile behavior. They thought the marriage would keep him quote unquote grounded. Katie is his wife who he has two children with. Obviously is pissed when the sal comes out, and eventually filed a lawsuit against Subway to get answers about like what did you know? When did you know it? Like when did people report stuff? Why didn't you investigate?

Damn?

Because you know, subways acting like we found out and cut ties go fuck yourself.

But they knew.

They admit at one point that one of the investigation, one of the allegations, was not properly investigated.

They're like, we mishandled it.

But by August of twenty fifteen, federal prosecutors cut a deal with Vogel. There is kind of always a deal to be had, especially when you're famous white man. He pleads guilty to two counts, the distribution and receipt of child pornography and one of traveling to engage in illicit sexual conduct with a minor, and that stems from trips to New York City where he paid to engage in

Under the age of eighteen.

In November of twenty two, well If, he allegedly paid a seventeen year old for sexual acts at the Plaza. The next day, he asked her ya text if she could find him another underage girl quote unquote, the younger the better, uh. And then he traveled to New York City again in twenty thirteen to have sex with the same girl. And then this girl also said that on three separate occasions, she's had sex with Fogel when she was sixteen, So she's one of his victims. All told,

So I didn't even know this.

I assumed, I mean that he was just watching child abuse images and stuff, but he is legit also raping young kids.

Well he yeah, he's raping teenagers that are minors for sure. And then a lot of the other stuff I think was unprovable because it was just him like talking to people like oh, yeah I did this, I did that or whatever. But maybe they couldn't find the victim more like it could have just been him bragging about things that didn't happen, or it could have happened, and there just is an evidence.

I really maybe I.

Just didn't look into this that deep, but they hid that pretty well, like I don't.

I didn't know this. I remember hearing about the trip to New York.

I remember hearing like, oh, he's sketually like had sex with someone in New York.

But it definitely wasn't. It was one of those things.

Where you thought, oh, but he thought the person was of age or whatever. Like I just you didn't really get an idea of how like truly sick he was

For the rest of his life and undergo treatment.

When he entered his plea in November twenty fifteen, so this all went pretty fast, Like he was arrested in July and he was like entering a guilty plea in November of.

The same year.

He apologized and said he wanted a chance to become quote a good honest person after getting caught up in a life of quote deception, lies, and complete self centeredness. I don't really know if that's getting to the point of what you did, but I guess thank you for your apology. There was a this is like, I don't know, this is like interesting, but I think kind of bullshitty.

That is valid.

Fogel ended up getting sentenced to fifteen years and eight months in prison, which is three years more than the prosecutor asked for, so I think the judge was like, this isn't enough. The judge said that quote the level of perversion and lawlessness exhibited by mister Fogel is extreme, so he has to serve a minimum of thirteen years

And I feel like, I wonder if you got protective custody or if he's just super famous in jail, because there's no way that they didn't like people in jail wouldn't know who that is. I know, I know, and you know, child molesters famously do not do well in prison exactly.

I can't imagine he's having a very pleasant time.

But and do we have any updates on his family and how they're doing.

I know that she the wife, his second wife, did get seven million dollars in the divorce, so hopefully they went and like changed their names and just at like living somewhere happily his wife and kids.

But I just.

I mean, it's like, you know, again, it's not like Lisa and I are here to help people get away with crimes.

But it's just like.

You're talking to people over text about all this stuff. You're opening up to random strangers about it. Like, I mean, I think this journalist in Sarasota is one of the reasons he got taken down, just because she was it was easy to get him talking about it, and like he just was like, oh yeah, I love being with kids, like and just got him to open up, and she recorded so much of it.

Yeah, it's arrogance.

That seems like a very I'm surprised by how light a sentence that is for Jared when someone's actually physically acting on it.

I think because he only made the plea deal based on the relationship in New York, which was a seventeen year old girl who said that things happened when it was sixteen, but maybe there was no proof, and he you know, these guys always say I thought they were eighteen, you know, and like I'm sure jury, like they're like, if we bring this to a jury, they might be like seventeen eighteen.

Blah blah blah.

I think obviously he's guilty of other stuff, but that's not what was part of the plea deal.

So yeah, I mean it's not great. It's not great.

And like I think we'll never know like the extent of his crimes really because I don't know. There just isn't like a lot of documentation about his other victims.

But and thank god, Subway just keeps on thriving. I mean, Subway cannot be taken down. Your spokesman is a full on pedophile rapist.

You keep on trucking like it is really crazy what a hold on society Subway has, right, Have you had the veggie Patty?

No, it is really good.

Exist When I was like in my heyday of my Subway days.

And then my friend who I lost to a cult called Landmark when we were younger, she would get the seafood salad it Subway, and that to me was like I should have stopped being friends with her at the moment I saw her later.

That is making my stomach turn.

Yeah, my little brother Colin was such a picky eater as a kid. He would only get a six inch tuna, nothing on it. No cheese, nothing else, no lettuce, just two scoops of tuna in white bread. And if there was any black bits inside the tuna, you wouldn't eat it.

What are black bits like? Anything like a piece of pepper? You know what I mean?

Like?

Anyway, is this Colin? Yeah? This is Colin. Have we already talked about this? No, Colin.

So I met Colin and his fiance and we were at dinner and each of them ordered the duck, and it bothered me so much. I like confronted them. I was like, so, you're both going to get the duck. You just love duck. Don't you want to share? Don't you want to go house? He has, like why are you each getting it? You both need that much duck? And they're like, yeah, we both want duck. I don't know what to tell you, and I tell you, I just don't understand.

Yeah, I guess, yeah, that's that's very You're coming from a very me place where I'd be like, oh, wait, you want the duck, I'll get the duck, you get a pasta, we'll both have a little bit of both, Like yeah, no. They just were both sitting in front of me, and then I ordered the octopus. They brought me one tentacle, one tentacle for seventeen dollars. That was a sad meal to watch Lisa eat. Yeah, to watch Lisa eat one tentacle.

It was a lot. I know.

Megan was like, do you want some of this brand Zeno. I'm like, yes, of course. I wouldn't have ordered the octopus if it was gonna if I knew one tentacle was gonna arrive, Like, I'm fucking sad, little Mermaid.

It was just it was a bummer. It was a bummer. All right.

Well, what's not a bummer is our interview that is coming up. And we're so excited to talk to this person, so we'll be right back. All right, I'm really excited for this interview. We went a little bit out of the box this time, guys. We did not talk to an actor from the episode. We talked to the writer of the episode. Our guest has written on Er the Practice, Cold Case Crossing Jordan. She's a former co executive producer and writer on Long Order Special Victims Unit and we.

Were so so privileged to talk to her.

So, guys, check out our interview with Samantha Corbyn Miller well, you did listen to Institutional.

Fail, which you wrote, and how did you feel about what we said?

I'm like, are you here to drag us?

Like we're ready for you to tell us that we're completely wrong about everything?

No, no, you guys.

You know you guys nailed it. Yeah, I mean, oh ah, solid, super solid. I enjoyed it, and I forget how I forget exactly. There was a moment you said something about Barbara Barbara like coming in here, mister you know you're all hot for mister suspenders and you know, representing the patriarchy.

I was like, I was on my floor.

Was it cool to have Whoopy Goldberg say that monologue on the stand?

It was unbelievable. I mean, whoop bee, she's like the consummate pro. She just comes in there and knocks it out, and to you know, to sort of be sitting back and watching.

Her do her thing was unbelievable. It was unbelievable.

And it's funny because at first I was thinking like, huh, Whoopy Goldberg, because when you know, when we were first writing the episode, I was thinking like, you know, she's she's warm, and she's coming and you know, all the stuff that you know, we love about Whoopy Goldberg. And I was thinking about this like sort of just tight

We talk about how like the show really does great things by like turning comedians like on their heads kind of and making them like creepy or sort of more bureaucratic or like, you know, different things that when they when they cast comedians, it's like never what you expect.

Yeah, yeah, And I think, you know, people are so game for that challenge. You know, the same with with so many of these Broadway superstars. I mean talk about having this amazing uh you know, well of talent to pick from, you know, having done most of the shows I've worked on have been in LA so you know, to spend those years in New York and to have this whole new pool of incredible actors, you know, so many with that theater training, it was just like it was like being a kind of candy store.

Was so great.

Speaking of Broadway, one of the episodes you wrote, the Agent Provocateur, Did you know it was going to be Patty Lapone or was it like a whoopee thing where they tell you after how did that work out?

Same same thing? Yeah, it was.

It was after and definitely when we knew it was it was mss Diva Patti La the one, the only Yeah, yeah, that's that's when we were like, Okay, we're going to start putting out, you know, rewrite pages because we need more.

That's amazing. Well, so can you tell us a little bit about like your background. Obviously we've like looked you up and you worked on season three as a consulting producer and then you came back later on seasons sixteen and seventeen as a as an ep So, like, I just like, how what was your Did you know Neil Bher from Er, Like we just want to know how you got like into the SVU universe and like what's your backstory?

Yeah, yeah, it's cool. I never thought i'd be a universe. You know, I don't I don't do capes, I.

Don't do tights.

Yeah, I knew Neil from Er, you know, he was my my doctor sense. That was my you know kind of jump into into the big time. Was I started as a staff writer on Er and he graciously brought me into uh SVU.

To help out.

I actually had a commitment over at Universal, so I wasn't able to support of jump on full time as as I would have loved to, you know, but I came in. I helped on a couple of episodes and just you know, fell in love with the world and the voice and of course Olivia Benson and uh you know then sort of went around the maypole for many, you know, many years. And I mean that's the great thing about like SVU is you can literally have an entire lifetime and come.

Back to sv still gonna be there. Yeah.

Yeah, we got into this a little bit with Neil, but I am sort of interested in like the writer's room process, maybe just as a writer. I'm I think that's interesting how you guys do things, because because the episodes are so sort of compartmentalized, but then there will be these like story arcs, like I think one of your seasons is like when Benson gets Noah, or like, you know, there's all these overarching things that kind of do continue.

Over the course of a season.

Do you guys sit together at the beginning of the season and say, Okay, this is what's going to happen overall generally, but then go off and write your own episode. Do you break story together in the room? Like how does it work?

Yeah?

I mean SPU is a really interesting animal. You know, it's such a well oiled machine. And it's not really a room show. It's a lot more kind of independent study. I mean, we had you know, kind of bullpen areas where you know, we'd chop it up and talk with each other. But it isn't that traditional. We're all sitting in a room, you know, eight hours a day, you know, breaking stories as a group. But it's really we'd always be, you know, generating ideas and keeping up with stories you know,

Do, and i mean, you know, you your number would be called.

When your number was called, and you know, suddenly out of the blue, you know, literally would be like, hey, Samantha, you're doing the episode in this case, you know, you're you're doing the Jared from Subway episode.

So did they like, were you guys like we got to take down? Hey Abraham, how are we going to do it? Or you're like, Okay, we're going to have this storyline. Who in the universe are we going to take?

How did it? Yeah? How did it come about?

That?

It was him that that was actually the second version. We came up with this idea, and you know a lot of times the the source material, you know that the rip from the headlines is obscure, and it's also never like a one trick pony like, it's never like this is the story of X, Y and Z from beginning to end. So we sort of use the Jared as a jump off. But then what was really interesting that I wanted to explore was the idea of all

All these people and how do they deal with that? And we talked about how could.

We do that story and make it really impactful, you know, and so we feel through our characters who we care about that they would be impacted in that same kind of way, and in a way, they too are those collateral damages. And you know, it was actually Warren who had the great idea of like, why don't we make it Hank Abraham, And once again.

I was like, yeah, but that guy is such a prick, right.

That was kind of like, so he's he's you know, he's been elevated from prick to you know, child child pornography enthusiast.

Like, Okay, it's not as much of a jump, but I liked.

It in that way of you know, I feel like we've seen the like, oh he's the nice guy, he's the you know, beloved coach or the beloved whatever, and oh he has this horrible secret. But there was like an extra once again, just like with that that wold be casting decision in Institutional Fail. It was that one little bit of extra that that made it a lot more real and a lot more interesting, which is this is that you know, uh, this this blowhard bureaucrat asshole that we all had to deal with.

You know, we have that person in our lives. But yet and still, you know, yet, I still you know, for all the.

Annoyance that this person might cause, you cannot believe that they're involved with something like this.

And it humanizes him marrying him with Pippa Cox, right, like, because she's pretty much was liked there was she didn't have any like bad. She's like the other the softer side of this man.

Yeah, yeah, and.

So yeah, that was I thought it was really interesting how it went with him too, and like the various phases of him being like, get out of here.

You guys got nothing.

On me, and then him being like, Okay, I'm in rehab, so I'm I'm admitting it, but I did, I'm getting help, you know, like, and then all the way to like utter despair when he realizes that his life. You know, he really just like kind of played through a lot of cycles there, and.

His acting was so good.

Yeah, you do feel a little bit even though he is this prick for all these other episodes and in this one too, initially, like you do sort of feel for him a little bit even though he's guilty and he's because you see these kids and this wife and the collateral damages as you were saying.

Yeah, yeah, he definitely took us through the stages of asshole grief, very very beautifully.

Sure.

Yeah, and you know, and so much of so many of those details actually came out of, you know, researching families that had gone through, you know, similar situations.

You know, even that moment of the little.

Girl, you know when she sees the police dog and wants to pet the police dog because for her, all she knows is, oh.

Here are a bunch of people in the house and they brought it dog. Great. You know, she has no idea that you know, her world has just exploded.

In the pitching process or during stuff. Is there anything you fought hard for that entered into an episode or things that you really fought for and wanted that didn't turn out in an episode.

One of the first ideas I came in with was I really wanted to do the sort of over the top method actor who might be a creep, you know, James Franco, Shilah Boof. I wanted to do it so badly, and that was one of those ones that I kept being like, so now can we And I guess maybe I'd beat him down long enough that that finally we got to do it an agent provocateur.

But that that one, that one was like, my it's like I wouldn't let it go. I was like a dog. I loved the bone with that one.

You as a writer, were you were you on set for shooting or like, did you ever like collaborate with like the directors or the actors or anything like that, or was it just like you hand in your scripts and then you see what happens.

Oh? No, it was it was full on, like pre pre production through shooting. You're you are very much on set, which oftentimes is you know, in some.

Blow zero were house, Yeah, like less than savory location. Yeah.

I found out real quick coming from Los Angeles that those big Canadian or Canada goose coats aren't aren't just for Drake anymore. They are like nessary. I totally got roasted. Like the first day I showed up on set with like basically the California version of a winter coat, and the entire crew is just like it's this lightweight. So so yeah, I mean that's that's one of the joys of working on SVU is not only are you there you know for the entire run. I mean you're on

You know, they make you put on booties and you know, a tithek.

Suit to you know, because so you don't put your your crew cooties on their their fabulus stuff. And you're walking through and you're like, oh, there's an original Warhol, Oh there's a rock coat, like and they're just like, here, please put put this on your show so I can talk about it at the country club.

Like it's it's unbelievable.

Well, no, that's I'm glad you said that because we just covered Identity from one of the earlier seasons and I noticed this cool painting in one of the houses, and now I like.

To know that it could be a real home with real art. Yeah, it excites me.

I mean if they can clear it, you know, because a lot of that stuff you can't get legal clearance for, so our art department, those guys are just they're so good. They're so good at like mocking up dupes and you know they always put some Easter eggs too, and there's like posters in the background and stuff like that.

Let me ask you, because obviously we're comedians. We there's something about us for you that we love. How funny it is, Like, I mean, it almost has to have comedy in it, because otherwise it's it would the subject matter would crush you. So how do you how do you navigate that? Like, as a writer, are you just like, oh, we need to throw a joke in this scene, this is like too this is too much, or like how

Yeah, it's it's funny because I've found over the years, just hanging out with writers of all stripes that as a general rule, drama writers tend to be hysterical and comedy.

Writers not so much off the clock.

And I think it's probably because they leave it all in the field and because you know, their hours are so crushing, and it's you know, like a gladiator, you know, match in their writer's.

Rooms to you know, come up with the best joke.

But I've done some dark shows and the writers on these dark shows tend to be really funny, so it's usually not so hard to find the voice of the humor. But like you say, it's it really is about where, you know, where is it appropriate to have this moment and have this joke. The good news is I feel like there's enough moments that are kind of outside direct victim involvement on the show that it's like, you know,

Is that it's one of the best things I've ever done in my life. I love that man. I love putting words in his mouth.

He's crazy, like he's a super well educated like on on set when everyone else is just sitting around bullshitting looking at their Instagram this and that. It's like he would have these like leather bound, dusty books that look like they you know, came from you know, a crypt of a Latin monastery somewhere, reading that shit for fun like nicest chillish dude in the room, but like super smart. So yeah, and can memorize just pages of dense legal dialogue and just like nail it and give you colors

You know, honor. But you know, all all all those cats, I mean, you know careesis.

Also, I love writing for Skin of you know, because you know he can deliver the funny without saying a word. You know, he just he just has a look a lot, you know, a thing, and then Ice is the quip master, you know what I mean.

It's like he's completely quiet.

Through an entire scene and then you just put that Ice button at the end of the scene that like one, you know, it's like everyone's talking like all their you know, legalistic mumbo jumbo, and then he just nails it like that some bullshit and it's like, you know, I think the best part of being on that set. I mean it's for real, like it is a kind of warm, tight family atmosphere. One of the things that I always appreciate about Marishko.

I appreciate a lot of things about Marishka.

First of all, she you know, this is this is her set, her show, and it's the responsibility that she doesn't take lightly. And she knows these scripts up down in center, and it's always kind of scary as a writer when she pulls you aside and wants to ask something about the script, because it's like, you know, she's found something and you know she's going to have a good point and then it's like, oh, I hope I

Everyone knows everyone, everyone.

Knows what's going on, and you're this guest actor, you know, coming in for a couple of days of work. But she never lost sight of their comfort and bringing them in,

The day and you know, his.

Journey and the rap game and this and that, and like he always had a philosophy on what was going on in the world, and like it was always just like I'm just going to sit back and like this is going to drop some knowledge and it's going to be read.

So can we ask you, Like this is a little bit of a silly question, but just for your we just want your opinion. Who do you think is Benson's romantic match, Like do you think that I mean, obviously, now spoiler he has passed, but Ed Tucker. A lot of people liked her with Ed Tucker, obviously Maloney, some people wanted her with Barbara, but I personally never saw that as a thing with them.

I mean, do you have any thoughts?

You know, It's like I don't I don't need the Stabler hive coming after me. I mean, you know, you know, I value my life.

No. I think it's actually pretty common for people to say that they don't want Benson and Stabler together.

I don't think people will come for you. Don't worry interesting it.

People are like some people are like make it happen, and then other people are like, she deserves better.

He's toxic. So we get a lot of both sides from people.

Yeah, I got to say I was I was pretty sweet on the Tucker of it all. I felt like they were a good match. I felt like, you know, they'd gone through some stuff, but he learned, he grew, and I felt like he was like he wasn't man enough for her, like you know.

It's like Barbara. I feel like that that.

Could be a fun, fun fling in Paris, you know, maybe like a long weekend in Paris with Barbara.

But yeah, long, long term. I don't know that I see that one.

Yeah, at the end of your episode, Claudal d Images, I think, is that the first time we know that there's something with with Tucker and Olivia.

I believe they link of the arms.

Yeah, I know that was you started people down a path there. You have a show that you wrote on that's on air right now, one is filming and then one is in pre production.

Is that correct? Yeah?

I let's say sometimes they put the put that pre production thing on IMDb. I actually have I have a couple pilots I'm working on that are in contention, uh for a couple streamers. And yeah, and just wrapped on another NBC show called.

Debris, and that's like more of a sci fi show, right, that's that's a sci fi investigation show.

Yeah.

Yeah, okay, so you're still using your like procedural muscles, but it's like a little bit more out of this world.

Yeah it is. It is hell weird. It is Hello weird. That show. Oh my god. I love Samantha. I want her to be my mentor.

I love getting inside scoop and I love talking to people with amazing work ethics. Like I've really noticed this. I was like, oh, people are working, and that's why they have money. Interesting. Interesting, Like it's almost like correlation, but it is. And yeah, she was incredible, and I'm also grateful she told us about Jared from Subway.

Yeah.

Let's be honest, that was an exciting not an exciting crime, let's like you cut that JK, but a famous, you know, in the in the I type crime.

Yeah. I mean it's it's one of those.

It's one of these crimes where like I'm surprised I hadn't actually like looked into it more deeply or like read a in depth New York Times piece about it or something. I just kind of knew in general that he was a creep, and I didn't really know any of the details.

So I don't know.

I can't say I'm glad I know them now, but I do know them now, and unfortunately I am craving subway, Like I want a tuna sandwich. It could be fake tuna and Jim Matts in the bread. I want it so bad right now, with pepper jack cheese and those little banana peppers, Like, give it to me, I know. I'm like part of me is like, if I ever give up my almost fourteen year streak as a vegetarian, I'm like, will I go straight back to a BMT in some way and just eat a stack of Deli meat slathered in mayo?

Wait?

If you give up vegetarianism, like I want to go out and do like burgers or like steak or yeah, I would rather Yeah. I don't think cold cut sandwich is what you're going to break your vegetarians.

We You're right, that's not how we're going to celebrate it.

I'm like, well, fucking go to Mastros, bitch, No, for sure, And I would go to Mastros anyway, because I thought their sides are dope.

I've never been. I've wanted to go because they have lobster mashed potatoes.

Let's go for your birthday. Yeah, I was just about to the.

S Yes, yes, yes, all right, Well, I everywhere we go, I'm kind of I am one of those bad people that are obsessed with my own birthday and I think about it for months and months and months in advance, and I'm always like everywhere we go now because every I'm like, I want to party here.

No, here, I want to hear.

Every patio we've been to is where I want to throw my party. But yeah, okay, so what let's get into our post mortem for this episode, Like what we learned besides, we love Subway again.

If someone's acting uncharacteristically interested in something, they're guilty, Like if I Hank Everrayham always a dick, suddenly he's like good work, guys, right, suspicious?

Yes, you know, if someone's acting off kilter.

Or nicer or meaner to you out of nowhere, dig deeper, do not accept the niceness. Also, Like, I don't know if this is like a lesson, but I guess it's kind of it's kind of a good career move to hide it if you're married to like the company asshole. Like nobody knew Pippa was married to Hank. She just kept that quiet for her own image, and it kind of worked for until it didn't.

You know.

Well, I was also gonna say a horrific post mortem moment is you never know who you're married to?

Do?

Yeah? Oh God, accept me, I do.

But yeah, truly, you just never know what someone is up to or capable of. Yeah, they could be a pedophile or you know, throw you in a wood chipper one day. You just never know. That's from forensic files. I didn't just pull that out of my own brain. Well yeah, and famously Fargo the most famous wood shipper scene in cinema.

Fire Go Baby.

Yeah, And I guess, like I mean, like I said, we're not here to help you guys get away with crimes, but if your co founder of your foundation gets busted, you're next get the fucking out of town. Also, if you're not getting a deal, but he did get a deal, I guess, always a deal to be made, always a deal to be made, fucking deal man. Yeah, you could be watching nineteen hours of child sex abuse images and still get a deal. So whether you're at a car

Also, change your passwords up for your child porn sites. Yeah, unfortunately, my legal of age porn site that I subscribe to.

My screen name is glitter Cheese And I'm like, why did I do that? Go everybody go final Liza on porn Hub or whatever.

Now I'm a, yeah, no, I have another site. I'll keep that secret. I usually tell everyone. I bet on one, I bet you could guess, but I am glater. She is on my porn website.

Oh and I do well.

This reminds me I do have a new pornhub joke that's kind of been a hit. I am doing stand up again, and I will be in Philly June twenty four, five, twenty three through twenty five.

That weekend, I'm there like Thursday through Saturday at the Punchline in Philly.

Right, Yeah, I'm really excited I'll be in Philly.

I have This will be my first time doing a weekend since March, like sixth and seventh in North Carolina, March twenty twenty, so I've been working hard getting getting it all together.

Lisa is a singular talent on the stand up stage. You guys, I'm serious, Like, if you like her on this podcast, you're gonna love her doing stand ups. So go get if you live within a four hour radius of Philadelphia, drive yourself there.

Get tickets at the Punchline.

And I didn't want to say this about myself, but it is going to be a special night back because it is going to be my first weekend. So you will see, like I'll be tight and desperate laughs, but also have sheets and need to do crowd work. So yeah, and she'll be like happy for you to buy her a drink at the end of the night. Well I'm not drinking, hello, I should be you and drink at your first show back. No, you're right, I'll have a whiskey in Philly. But I just I've been in New York.

I'll also be in Dave and Buster's Wednesday night for half priced game night, So if you are a Dave and Busters fan, I will be playing.

So you've known me to stalk Lisa. She's letting you know where she is every day. And I will be having a Philly cheese steak one day too. I mean, I can't wait. I like American cheese over cheese with Philly. Let me know how you feel about that.

All right?

Well, you know what This is a seamless transition into our weekly segment What would Sister Peg Do, where we direct you towards resources or organizations that can help you learn more or understand more about an issue we talked

Also, it's in our show notes.

So next week's episode, we will be covering Smut season ten, episode ten ten ten, maybe ten's.

Across the book.

Yes, and I know we did not cover the Raleasi what is it? Yes, the Releasi moment, the Releasy kiss. It's because I am behind. I'm catching up. I I'm watching too much Top Model. I've watched three seasons in one week. No, I but I know what happened. I saw the photos. I cannot wait to watch the kiss and MASTERB. So we'll talk about it soon. Kara has watched it. I'm sorry to disappoint everyone. I'm trying my best. We'll have a hot take on it next week, guys, So just stay with us.

Okay, we'll see you guys next week. That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email at That's Messed Up Pod at gmail dot com.

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