Closet w/ Bailey Chase

Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

These are our stories, Done Done.

That's Messed Up. An sv podcast.

My name is Lisa and I'm Kara, and every week we tackle an episode of a really great television show called Law and Order Special Victims Unit. We talk about a true crime that it was based on, and we interview an actor from the show. But first, there's a lot going on. Hold on, there's a lot going on. Okay, do you have something you want to start with, because.

I well, I'll do a quick louisg update.

So basically, the federal judge said that they're not going to set a trial date until like December twenty twenty five. So this trial on the federal level will not happen until twenty twenty six.

And why why would they wait seven months to set.

A date, I don't know.

And but also as of now, the state trial is supposed to be going first, and she has put Karen has put an emotion to do the federal trial first since the death penalties attached, like that's obviously more important, but I don't know. I think it's just to get all the motions right, all the evidence. There's like so much,

This is brought up in court.

Karen in court is like, hey, judge, like, we know for a fact they were listening to conversations in the court. The prosecution goes, oh, this is the first we're hearing of this, Like we had no idea this was happening.

So then Karen on.

The Luigi Manjioni defense like website, like on the legal website, has transcripts from court and puts out statements and basically she was like, fuck the prosecution for doing that.

Here's a statement.

And then the prosecution sent a letter to the judge and made it public that was like fuck you, this is bullshit, Like they know for a fact conversations will be listened to, and it was paralegal who listened. In the moment she realized it was privileged, she stopped listening.

We knew immediately. We took like blah blah blah, blah blah.

And then Karen's response was just like, here's the transcript to court. So in court they said, we've never heard of this. And then the statement they released after court, the prosecution says.

Actually apparently heard it.

A paralegal heard it. We stopped it immediately and we made everyone known. And he needs a designated line for lawyers, but the inmates should know that all their convos on like this other line is being listened to. So then Karen's response is just like four sentences, not even and it's like my response is the transcript, babe, So which is it?

And so that was only like four days ago.

That's all dated and was released but like on the on the twenty fifth.

Was the court date. So like this is getting crazy.

So yeah, I mean, it's an unfair Everything is like unfair and fucked. But the fact that they're lying in court like this and then trying to embarrass her and he's always condescending. He was like, and if Karen wants to read up on the law that you can listen to call like just such a dick.

But we'll see what ends up happening.

But yeah, we're not going to get a trial till twenty twenty six, and then I do hope they let the federal trial go first. And then the reason I know that this the federal government has like a ninety seven percent conviction rate is because a man was harassing Karen on the street, yelling at But it's like they're doing it because they want him to set up all there. They didn't do an indictment because they don't have a case.

Like I really don't know what's going on.

I don't think they're gonna let him go because he's become the symbol of something. But it's pretty fucked the prosecutor just lying in court, lying outside of court, and all she had, like I think that's a mic drop read the transcript and that's all she needed to say.

Be like, which is it, bitch?

So those are the only updates I have at the moment in terms of Okay, but there was like we weren't able to see him. You know, he was wearing a jail uniform like beige is what I've heard. Yeah, so I don't know what's Oh, and they requested bail. I doubt that he's gonna get it, but they requested bail. And I hope his family is rich enough. I hope they're talking to him. I hope he gets afforded bail. And I really hope he gets to like house arrest or something.

I don't know.

Oh my gosh, crazy because he's obviously being treated us fairly.

If his phone calls are now being listened to, and then the prosecution can just lan in court. But I have to read more of the transcript. You know, I have to live a life like keeping up with his case is like a full time job. It feels like on top of everything else, I do so trying my best.

Oh my gosh.

Well, there was all kinds of news like today, basically yesterday, that that Virginia. I don't know how you say this last name, Geffrey. Geoffrey was she was this woman who had I think, testified that she had been on Epstein's Island and like was had been with Prince Andrew or whatever, like, and that he trafficked her to Prince Andrew when she was sixteen and all this stuff. She just took her own life, and everyone's like.

Did she.

Like everybody that's involved in this case keeps like ending, I'm surprised Joanne Gallainne Maxwell is still with us. But it's really sketchy, Like I was surprised, and this poor woman, like her fucking most of the majority of her life has been dealing with this.

Yeah, it's just dark anyway.

I don't know if maybe you had any Epstein conspiracy theory thoughts.

No, but it's just like, well, in my head, it's like why wouldn't the government protect her?

But it's like they're in on it. Yeah, So I don't.

Have anything to say besides I guess I gotta keep my mouth shut.

Wow she Yeah, I mean she accused her husband of physical abuse. I think she was as strange from her children for some reason, like she had a lot going on, but like it all stems from this, Like it doesn't make her story not true. And also she had she had said years ago she was like, they're gonna kill me. These people are gonna kill me, and now she is not no longer with us, so it's like reallyughable.

But let me change the subject.

Last night I went to go see Real Housewives the Musical.

It's Real Housewives the musical parody. I don't know. There's a few different ones.

This one on Instagram is Real Housewives the Musical, and Jared is really good friends with this girl, Mary Lou and she plays Andy Cohen. She plays all these other characters in it. And then there's like four sorry five Housewives that are drag queens that are in it, and it's so funny.

It's like all references to the show. I was dying.

The queen's names are Tarabithia, Karantina, Briella, Briello, Diantha, and Tali, and they're so fucking funny.

I was dying.

And then like the whole time, they're doing Watch what Happens Live like a runner that's just like coming up

So I went up.

I gave them money because I wanted to give them money. And then I was like, I was like, just a little bit of whiskey. I don't really like it very much, But then that pickle juice is delicious. I mean really, I wish you could chase other things with that. It's so good.

But the other guest was Avvy. Oh my god, Avvy is.

Sutton Stras houseman or whatever anymore, he laughed.

They parted ways this week.

I heard the inside information is that he got fired for being too fabulous or what.

I don't know.

But he wouldn't say anything. He wouldn't answer any questions. They took audience questions, he couldn't answer anything. He was like being so I'm sure he's like nbaid to the hilts. So it was like, but why did you come do this? Like I was, like I was excited though, like to see Avi. I mean, I was a Dynasty typewriter. It's

If you like the Housewives, it was just.

Joke after Joe and Jared was loving it, and he didn't understand a quarter of the references, Like all the references were like they want. They went through one time and they all ordered a drink in a like a crazy way, and then one of the characters that was not a housewife was like, these are all real drink orders from the show, like because they were so bonkers.

Oh my god. Anyway, I want to go.

I think it's good for Housewives fans and not fans alike. But Mary Lou was so good because she was in and out. Like at one point point she plays a party attendee who's just too into it, so like the housewives are fighting and she's just behind like what like you know how there's always people at the parties in the background that are like huh like and they're just there were so many like you could just.

Tell the girl who wrote it.

I actually know Rachelle Mees and she like you could just tell she likes the franchises, like she's you know, and there's all these funny songs and the different characters.

I love it.

I loved it incredible. Well what I love is love Hotel. Yeah, I love Hotel's amazing. My like it is just well, not so much. Shannon's gonna have a hard time. I could tell Shannon's struggling mentally. But the rest of the women are like they like dating, they like flirting. Luanne's sluttie like they're in it. They're fine, they're not waiting.

They're so give me a little bit of basic info. Who are the ladies. It's Shannon, Luanne, Giselle, yeah, and Ashley Darby and Ashley okay. And then the men, I would say, are all like in their thirties to sixties okay, and more we're on the older side, I would say, but they have some young ones for uh, you know, Ashley to be there. And but the women are like, I'm not being tied down, like back off or they're like, why didn't he kiss me?

What a loser? Just like really flirty women. So it's really fun. But my favorite so like Shannon's talking to this man. She goes, oh, do you know Andy Cohen? Like, what's your relationship with an? He goes who is that? And she goes, he works at the network. This show is on, And then it cuts to the man going, I don't watch TV. I don't know any of these women.

We're here just I'm just here for love. I don't even care about your guys status. That's so funny. Yeah, but I hope they find love. The guys are silly.

There's like an air of unseeriousness but vulnerability in this dating show that I think others don't. I don't know if it's because we already love the women. They do know how to be on TV. They're like dynamic and we want them to have fun. Yeah, and it's not that serious. If they find love or not, I don't know. But Luanne tells two guys she's like, stay here, boys, I'll be right back. Don't leave, and then she goes to flirt with another man and they're both like, she's

Out right, it's not really the venue for her. It's not the medium that like she needs for meeting people.

But I also knew it going in because Portia and Gizelle were on Watch What Happens Live this week and it was like a really fun episode as well, Like I got a lot of scoop about the show from them, and Joel's doing a really fun job and he sticks in a real housewife reference every other sentence, every other sentence, like it is so cool. At one point he goes and they're hung like bolo, and Luann goes, let's not oversell these.

Guys, please, It's just fun. It's like a really cool thing.

Because what I hate about The Bachelor and like Love is Blind, is the Christian marriage element, the conservatism, and.

This is just for fun.

Yeah, it's like great, I would love for them to meet love, like have love. But it's also like they're not desperate and they don't need to leave married to anyone. Like we're there for them, yeah, like we care about them, Like I don't care what.

They're up to.

Is there like is there like are there like little challenges and stuff like that?

Is that not yet?

Not yet?

They just met and it was basically like they mingled, mingled, then they each pick one guy to go on a date, and then that quickly goes back to mingling. Okay, but the trailers, there's gonna be drama where it's like you can't talk to other people, and Gazelle going, I'm definitely gonna be talking to other people, you know. So it's like there's gonna it's gonna get juicier and you know, more like fights, I'm sure, But right now, it's just

Yeah, yeah, I'm going to check it out. I'm going to check it I'm excited. I'm just like a little bit behind right now on My Housewives, Well just really Atlanta right now. I guess nothing else is on right behind on anything else.

I caught up on the whole Beverly Hills, but I think just a.

Lumber Yeah, but yeah, watch I don't really, I'll watch the house I'll watch the reunion.

But you know, you'd never know.

The page content is all over my my pages, Like I'm really I'm in a page wonderland right now. I'm seeing so many snippets and snappets.

No. I loved it because she was on Watch what Happens and Andy goes, what's your response to shep calling Giggly Squad that dumb ass talk show, and she goes, bless his heart. So it's like using his own Southern language against him, like truly number two on the New York Times bestseller list. Yeah, it's like, really, it's just such a moment to try to come after them, like, of course these guys all look like fucking losers. But not Bravo. But I've been watching Hacks and I'm loving it.

I love it.

That show does such a good job of like always taking me to a place I never see coming, Like it's such a surprising show to me, Like I always don't know what's going to happen next, and I love it.

Yeah, I believe.

I can't believe people that tell me they don't like it. I'm like, what they're just like, I think they're haters. Yeah, I think it's people that are haters that are haters. Right, it's almost always probably feel that are in the business. It's almost never, you know, it's not like a person that's like, well, yeah, I work on a farm and I hate hacks. Like, I don't know. I think people it's good. It's just a good show. I love it, but you know, trying to catch up. But you know,

And then how many chaperones are there or each kid has to bring a parent.

Each kid's with a parent, and some kids have both their parents or whatever. But I'm just we're just going, me and Rosie. I don't think we can. I don't think the first time I camp with Rosie can be Jared, who's never camped once, and then also Oscar.

That's just too much chaos.

So we're just I literally, as we speak, have a tent set up in my in my yard because I set it up to air it out and borrowed a bunch of shit and i'mhidd into the woods.

But smart of you to air it out. I wouldn't have thought. Yeah, but I'll never do that.

I know how to set up a tent.

I know how to do this stuff from camp, you know, But uh, I don't camp a lot. I haven't slept in a tent outside like that in decades. Because it be so cute, I think it's gonna be cute. I think she's gonna be so pumped to just be like sleeping in a little tent with me, and like she's gonna run around with all her friends and make s'mores and shit.

She's gonna love it.

Oh, this is it, and I'll give everyone a head up. Hopefully there's tickets still available. But Marishka Hargate is premiering a documentary about Jane Mansfield during her mother during the Tribeca Film Festival. There's the Carnegie Hall like premiere, and then there's an East I have an extra ticket to one that I'm not going to go to anymore, so you can DM me as well. But there's three nights showings and by the time this airs, the tickets have

And it's called My Mom Jane is the name of this doc. Yeah, I'm excited. Cool, Yeah it is. I'm so grateful, Lacey listens. Thank you for giving me the heads up. Oh.

Also, speaking of cute stuff about the camping, So I'm doing shows in Rhode Islands. Great weekend comedy connection. What a great place, thinks everyone that came out to see me. But these both late night shows. These people out of their minds. I mean, the drunkest, wildest people angry met like a bachelor party of fifty five year old bald men, every single one of them bald. I guess they were all holding each other like a tree, like they were

This is crazy what you're doing, like.

Phones out fully having a full conversation like I'm not there. Yeah, And when I sit, when I stop them, they go, it's mom's stuff. It's waving me away, it's mom's stuff. I go, what are you fucking talking about? You're like, I'm out in on the conversation. I want you to stop. We're just moms. Like it was kind of like move it along, go do your thing. We're doing mom's stuff here. I mean, they were blacked out, like obviously they needed a break from their lives, but like, what are you doing?

And I got so Max, I'm like, what do you mean.

Mom's like, yeah, obviously I said me and stuff because I was so mad. But and then happened twice where they're like, we're just moms. Yeah, that's I'm super not shocked. I mean Rhode Island.

It's like, I don't really get Rhode Island's identity, but it feels like a cousin of Massachusetts.

And I ever, half the crowd was Massachusetts people from all over.

They hate Delaware.

People said Delaware smells, and then everyone started applauding. I mean they hate Delaware in a way I didn't. I did not know. I did not know, but and I got a DM from someone being like, oh, it's a beautiful day in New England. The crowd's about to be fairal and they were. They were right, they were, oh.

Well yeah, especially you were there right as probably spring is springing, where like they've been let out of the cage after a month of being frozen.

So the sevens were like polite, and then the nine thirties were just kind of.

Like I hadfia to mop them off the floor. At the end, I had to just give up control.

I was not gonna be in charge of my own show, and I had to kind of resign to that whoa, And that's okay too, And.

Then it kind of even in and it's hard to even do crowd work with people that fucked up.

Oh well they found a way. You paid?

Well, you did you You talked to them, I thought to a lot of people.

Yeah, yeah, I talk.

To a lot of about they would They probably were like whether she wants to do crowd work or not.

She's talking to me. Oh oh yeah. They weren't interrupt. They don't care about timing. I mean, but whatever, Like I said, as long as you give up your uh, you know, everything you planned on performing and working.

But yeah, you can have a Were.

You in Providence, Providence, Rhode Island. Yeah, yeah, it's a nice town. I like Providence. I like Providence. All right, why don't we get started with today's episode. We've got a lot of a lot of episode coming atcha. As always, you can go to That's messed Up live dot com for our promo codes, tour dates for Lisa, all kinds of merch ship like that.

And you know I'm on the road about it, letting near you.

You can even take a trip. Yeah, I was buying New Orleans tickets.

I figured it out because I'm a genius, and I use miles, and I changed the date of a flight. I'm going to stand extra day whatever flights around trip main cabin. I'm talking Row twenty eight. Like everything else is sold out from New York's to New Orleans fifteen hundred dollars.

Is it jazz Fest or something. I don't fucking know.

I didn't even look, but and I waited a little too close to maybe too Wow, it's still three weeks ahead of time, and it was fifteen hundred dollars.

But I'm a genius.

Crazy I ended up being able to book my flight for twenty two thousand miles. And then I got a return on Monday because I'm staying there, like paying for my lodging, you know, And so my return I got for three hundred something dollars. So I did break the system, and I am a genius. But that's you know, you really have to play the game there. Okay, Yeah, we'll starting the episode.

First, starting.

Alright, alright, exciting today we are doing the episode Closet, Season nine, episode sixteen, airing back in two thousand and eight. The episode starts with some young dude like in you know, suit sweater, vest ugly shirt running into a boardroom filled with suits.

He's got binders. He looks stressed.

He starts typing on like what looks like a little touchscreen sidekick, like it's the one. It's like it's a touch screen, but you turn it sideways. And he's calling some guy Jeremy on the phone, going why are you late? You're gonna get your balls busted or whatever, and then a suit comes up to the young guy and goes, where's your boss? No bullshit, and he's like, Jeremy, schedule this whole dog and pony show. And I'm not canceling because he's sleeping off a bender. It's like, okay, a

Get up? Get He like goes into the room. He sees like an arm sticking out of the bed.

He's like, fuck you slept in and he pulls back the sheet like a magician revealing a trick. And then we just see his face and he looks shocked, okay, and then we hard cut to a dead guy in his pj's with his mouth gaping.

Open but also weirdly smiling.

It's so creepy, and Benson goes looks like he died, laughing, and Warner adds or screaming. It's like wow. Within thirty seconds, the show is so fucking creepy. And again I write, I am unclear about the mouth open, eyes open after death thing, like I don't really understand, but they do get to it.

I just wrote it down.

Here earlier because I was like, how come some people are like eyes wide open, and some people are eyes shut and mouth open and this and that. But there's fluids on his body, there's bruising, there's anal tearing, so there was penetration. And Stabler goes, oh, but getting raped didn't kill him. Milinda's like, no, he was asphyxiated, cause there she is our old friend Petiki. Okay, like that it should be somebody's drag name. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome

Okay?

And Melinda's like, well, he must have had an object wedged in there before rigger set in, So then whoever killed him like hung around and then yanked the ballgag out of his mouth after the body got stiff, Like that doesn't really make sense, and Melinda's like, well, yeah,

You're telling on yourself, bro.

And then our girl, CSU Captain Judas Ciper, friend of the pod, says she's got something. And there's a jim bag with an ID tag that says Jeremy Haynes and that bag was found stuffed down a garbage shoot down the hallway. And the bag is a real party. It's got a red leather ball gag. It's got satin restraints

I'm a little.

Surprised to see so much kink shaming and season nine, like, I kind of thought they had progressed past that by then, but obviously not yet. No, and this is even pre Rollins and Rollins has been judgment. You know that's true, Judge, Yeah, that's true. But so now we're at the credits, and after we come back from credits, they've got Sam in

Were messing around.

You choked him too hard, you set it up to be able to find the body. And then Sam's like, well, I was actually working till two am with fifteen other assistants, And it's kind of strange to me to not ask the alibi first, Like a lot of this work of you guys creating the soul story could have been shot down just by going, so where were you at one am?

Oh me at the office. There's fifteen people that can corroborate it. Great.

Now we don't have to like make up this story about you too, fucking like and Sam is standing strong and he's like, yeah, you can check my DNA whatever you want to do. I didn't kill him, and he's like, they tell he tells them that Jeremy was single, he worked so much he did enough time to meet guys, and he goes, wait, maybe it was one of his kids, and stablers immediately like he's a dad, and then it's like, no, not his own kids. He volunteered at a shelter for

She's in tons of stuff.

She's like a very famous actor now and transactivist. And she clocks Maloney and gives him a little per She likes what she sees. She's like, I'm canvas. And then they ask about Freddy and she's like, what did that little devil do?

Now?

She thinks he has sticky fingers and steal shit from the lockers, and she'd fire him, but the members love him right, and she thinks he must have gone into a fight because he's got a big old bruise and this kid has a temper. So Sabler goes to find Freddy in the locker room, and he's doing exactly what she's worried that he's doing.

She's bent over rooting through lockers.

Like Sabler busts in, and like it's like you might just say, hey, you're not on locker room duty anymore, Like you just have to like mop the bathroom. I don't really know, but this kid is in there going on a little shopping spree.

How I feel with my laundry girl, she is losing my items. I am getting other people's sucks, but I keep on going.

The customer's lover, the customer's lover.

So Stabler, you know, goes hey, Freddy or whatever, and then of course the kid runs.

There's a chase, but it's short. Stabler grabs him.

And this guy playing Freddy is named David del Rio, and he he had been in like a few things, but nothing I'd really heard of. But then he it seems like he has just hit his big break because he is a regular on the New mattlock Seas with Kathy Bates, so kludos to him, which people love, and his people are watching it.

I don't know. They bring him into interrogation. He's being kg. He hates the cops.

He tells them, oh, is that the movie with my friends? And Stabler's like, oh, what what's up with the massive bruise on your face? He truly has a huge bruise, like on his whole cheek, and he admits he got into a fight with Jeremy, and he goes, bitch, thought he was tough, and then he looks shook though when Stabler mentions that Jeremy was killed, like he did not know, and he's like, no, no, no, no, no no. This guy box to stay in shape, and I told him you

And then I got like a raging nosebleed.

And Stabler's like, sure you did, jan And then he says he got home before twelve and the house has a midnight curfew, so he's like, I signed in, you can check.

And Stabler's like, what's up with you too?

Like you and Jeremy something going on there, and Freddy's like, I tried, but Jeremy shot me down. He said I was too young. So I do stand A man who you know, keeps it, keeps age in mind. Freddie also says that Jeremy told him he was serious about someone. He said the guy traveled all the time, but that they've been together for a few years. And Benson's like, oh,

Well, you know what else, I'm thinking, So this motherfucker is working what fifteen hours a day Monday through Friday, and then during football season, I get I bet he's watching all day Sunday.

Yeah, that's what you know what I mean?

Maybe I'm selling him short, but I'm like, are you fucking kidding me?

No, You're he's watching the yes.

In the spring watch he's watching all this, but he's watching the Knicks in the winter, he's watching it all. I'm sorry, Calf, Yeah, yeah, sorry, Calf. Top of ac two. Finn and Lake are just two broads gossiping. They're like reading a magazine and they're like, Lincoln Haver is gay. I thought he was dating Natasha Gorski, that hot supermodel. And Jeremy must have hated seeing his man all over the rags with a gal pal, right, Stabler's like, you

Season game because because he was gay.

Who's to say, but Carl Nasib who came out in June of twenty twenty one, became the first active NFL player four years ago, and he played for the Cleveland Browns, the Tampa Bay back in the years, and the Las Vegas Raiders, and he retired in twenty twenty three after seven seasons. So he played a couple seasons as an

So it's like, okay, let's go talk to Dicky Stabler's hero.

So now they're at a practice field in the Bronx where someone is literally yelling Blue twenty two, which I like associate with ace Ventura, Like I just I feel like Blue twenty two, like that feels like the only football play I would ever know in a million years, and someone's actually yelling it in the show, you know what I mean. It's like somebody going hut hut hike, like it's so, it was just funny to me, and then I but I guess it's some kind of legit play.

Let's let her have some fun.

They approach Lincoln and he is played by the actor Bailey Chase.

He's very handsome and he.

Says, we're here to talk to you about Jeremy Haynes and he's like, oh yeah, he's my business manager. And they're like, well, we know he managed your penis as well, and he's like, nah, I gotta go, and he starts to walk away, and then they show him the photo that they captured somehow in the dark of him visiting a grave and he's like, okay, well, I cannot talk

Like I didn't. I couldn't get back in time for the funeral.

Whatever that look going at three am is what fit my schedule is basically what he's saying. And Benson is like, Babe, we're getting a court order for your DNA and he's like, I would never hurt Jeremy. We were friends, Stablers like you guys were lovers, like we know, and he says yeah, he basically drops it. He's like, yeah, we were going to go public, but it's not like, you know, we can just come out with it like and Stablers like yeah,

She should have lied faster, like I'm sorry, Benson, I'm like so disappointed at her that she couldn't, like come.

Up with a fast lie.

You guys are undercover, pretending to be Russian cleaning ladies, pretending to be people adopting babies. You can't like come up with a quick lie, like or get yourself out of it really fast, like come on.

Yeah, I was really upset. Yeah.

So this is a big plot point of the episode that Benson basically lets this shit slip and Natasha's like they were not fucking and then she's like, oh my god, she's just finding this out. Thank you Benson force billing, and Natasha's like that explains everything. There's nothing wrong with these girls, referring to her tits just girls.

She runs over to her bag and grabs her phone.

She calls a friend named Shanad, does not wait for it to ring, She just picks it up and goes Shanade and she's about to blab, and Stabler grabs her phone and is like, don't ruin Dickie's hero, Like, don't you know, please, don't ruin Dickie's hero. You know, And Natasha is pissed. She's like, he used me, and she calls him you.

Know him too, that was the only reason you were with him is to use him.

If it's a publicist connected relationship, then you're both it's a mutual user, and you should assume he's gay. Yeah, yeah, And she's like, she calls him a three letter slur for a gay man. And then Benson tries to go her to chill and she's freaking out that maybe he gave her aids like she does not seem like a very evolved person and lives like you can get that from anyone.

Actually, did you two use a condom?

And then she's like, get out of here, and she finishes the condom with her friend, who I guess has been on hold this whole time, called the.

Condom it's been it was really funny. We're leaving it in. What did I call it a condom? You said, Oh, she gets back on the condom.

Yeah, she hops back on the condom.

No, I was reading. I get back on the condom.

So she finishes her convo pardon me, with her friend who's been on hold the whole time, and she's like Shanade, he's a homo.

Link is an ass bands.

I love that They were like, what should we call her Shanade? Like it's also such a wild name. Yeah, yeah, completely. She's telling Shanaid that Link is a homo. She goes, Link is an ass Bandit can you believe it?

It's like wild, like the word she's using, and she tells them she goes right before they leave, she goes check in with Gary Leslie, his agent.

My ex boyfriend is going to need a new job.

And then cut to them talking to Gary Leslie and now he is played by Rick Hoffman, who I recognize as one of the main dudes from Suits. I think that's this guy's claim to fame is that he's like the guy from Suits, right.

Oh, I know him. He's a commercial actor. Yeah.

Yeah, he's a great actor, this guy. Oh really yeah, I think he's very good. And he talks about well, Natasha was on a rampage, but I shut her up and he promised her the cover of the swimsuit is shoe and got her friend Shanade on the view. Who is Shanade? We're talking about Shanade so much, like that's the thing. You're right, they picked Shanade Like if you would picked the name like Lindsay, we would have been like, oh is she friends with Lindsay Lohan?

Like it could be vague, you know what I mean?

But instead it's like shanade O Connor's the only famous one, So what are you talking about?

But also, like I understand the view that's like a quick favor, Like you know it's just promo stuff, but you're telling me you could just favor your way into the cover of Sports Illustrated. That must be like, like I understand if it's to be in the Sports Illustrated, Like, oh, we'll give you this feature. I have this client, can you do this for me? Like they all know each other, but the cover just.

But this guy reps so many he probably reps so many sports guys that he's like, get her on the cover. I'll give you exclusives after the super Bowl with my guys, all these got you know what I mean, Like maybe it was that kind of deal. I just think it's what he made with Sports Illustrated.

I know. I just think it's such a big deal. And there's usually like an intention behind the cover model and like they're trying to tell a story, you know, not to get and not to make bring more depth into something that might not have it. But I just am like any favorite, they must have some sort of integrity or like, yeah, I guess we won't have Heidi Clume. Sure we'll take this bitch like what yeah, and no offense.

Yeah, totally.

I didn't get the sexiest model to ever live that like met will appeal to men and women and sell these magazines. I was like, okay, so she's like an actress on the CW. Like that's what I got, which you have to be very hot to do too. No, no knocking this woman, but like Sports insane, it's like Padma.

So the cover of the Sports Illustrated magazine in two thousand and eight, the year that this episode came out, is that right, was it eight?

Two thousand and eight? Okay?

The cover of the swim Sports Illustrated Swimsuit is she from two thousand and eight?

Is Marissa Miller?

Oh?

Yeah, I mean this is what I mean. Like she was so fucking famous.

Yeah, at the time I saw her face fucking everywhere that this bitch is not her.

I'm sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So anyway, the lawyer, Gary Leslie is like, are you sure this isn't some kind of mix up, and they're like, no, Lincoln told us he was gay, and Gary's like, I can't believe it. The guy's a chick magnet. I get laid just being out with him. And he wants to know how Natasha found out, and Benson confesses like, well, I kind of made an oopsie, like I just you know, let it slip. And they asked if he thinks Lincoln is capable of murder, and he's like, no way, he's a teddy bear off the field.

He doesn't have it in and to kill.

So now we're at Melinda's house and she's got the lowdown on the jizz as usual, Lincoln Semen was on Jeremy's carpet and on Jeremy and this carpet Semen could be old, but the Jeremy fluids were fresh, and they want to know if it's possible that he may be choked on the ballgag during sex, and Melinda's like, that's what the killer wanted you to think. But she thinks

Just keep that in mind.

And Gary thinks the cops leaked it, and suddenly there's beeps and boops and Lincoln is crashing and everyone gets kicked out of the room. In the next scene, Benson and Stable are listening to Sportsman Larry on the radio talking about sissy's in sports and he sounds like a real asshole, and he his voice by the late great Richard Lewis. He does not appear on the episode, but his voice is Sportsman Larry, and I think that's kind of funny Rip also known as like Larry David's Besty

Yeah, that's not her husband. Don't worry. She got out. No, I know, she's an educator. I know, I know. She was like, well, I don't really read any newspapers.

I'm like, yeah, you're getting news from other places, but to just pick up the New York Post and read it every day is kind of insane. So Tucker doesn't understand why she's calling a newspaper editor at ten pm, and Benson is like, well, it had nothing to do with Lincoln Haber, and Tucker is not buying it. He thinks she tipped off Moss, and Benson is denying it, saying the gossip columnist must have listened to sportsman Larry. But Tucker's got news. The paper went to press before

What the fuck?

And Tucker's like, oh, I guess you don't know her that well. And Stabler says, I know she'd never torpedo a case. And Tucker's like, well, sorry, but you didn't even know she was screwing the paper boy, so I guess you just don't know where that well. And this whole conversation is an hr nightmare, like I can't believe that actually IAB is involved in this conversation using the

I would say, like he was in so much stuff.

I'm glad you said while you were sleeping that's one of Yeah, that's a Trager family favorite.

And is the guy in the Koma not Daddy Dodds. Oh my god, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

So Daddy Dodds is in the coma of Sandra Bullock falls in Love with Bill Pullman worth watching if you haven't seen it.

Great, great fos and the Parents. It's a lot of old actors that are funny.

It's like, good, yeah, and I love Sandra Bullock and kind of anything, so I think it's fun. And he's like, oh, you must be Elliott. Olivia has a picture of you in her living room, so okay, this is not a leak. They are dating. He's been the living room, he's seen the photo. She has a frame photo of her her and Elliot.

Interesting.

Uh.

Staylor does not want any of this small talk.

He's like, Benson's been suspended because they think she leaked the Lincoln Haber story to you, and Stabler goes, who gave you the story? And he's like, come on, you know I would die for my sources and like, I'm not gonna make my columnists that wrote this name there's sorry, And he's like, so you're just gonna like throw Live under the bus, and Moss is like, you two have worked together for a long time. There must be a reason she didn't tell you about me, and Stabler's like,

They need a warm body.

They want someone to pin this on, and Stabler's like, I'm sure you've got some shit on the NYPD. Just remind IAB to stay on your good side. So Stabler's like, for my girl, do whatever you can literally hold blackmail the NYPD as much as you want. Just get Live her shield back Moss is like, I'll talk to them, and then Stabler goes nice meeting you and walks out.

There's tension.

There's tension, and Moss asks live, why didn't you tell me you were in trouble. She's like, I can handle it, and he's like, yeah, you like you don't let anyone in, Like you're not letting me in. And she goes, this isn't about us, and he goes, if you say so, and then he goes like, why won't you move in with me? It's a perfect time to talk about it, Like she's just been suspended at work, and he's like,

He grabs her.

They have a moment they do like a dry side lip kiss that's pretty unsexy, like they're not like there's a cute vibe between them. But then the kiss is like it's very dry, it's not full mouth on mouth, it's closed mouth and to the side. So and that's it. That's all we get of Bill Pullman in SVU history.

His ass locked up.

Stabler's like, yesterday he was a victim and we're getting grilled, and Craigan says, yeah, and today the media is all over it and the BRAS doesn't want him geting special treatment for being gay or a football player. I don't think he was really getting special treatment for being gay

I loved him.

So now we're in court and Lincoln is being arraigned for murder in the second degree and his lawyer is played by Rebecca balth this friend of the pod, Beverly DiAngelo. She enters a lot of people we've had on the podcast in this episode. It's very exciting. She enters a plea of mine and I also forget about everyone.

So while watching this, I was like, damn, we talked to Beverly DeAngelo.

What the fuck?

Yeah, yeah, it's crazy and Bobby Burke like all these people in this episode we've chat even Judith ciper our CSU Captain and Casey wants two million for bail and the lawyer is like, he's he's rich, but not a flight risk.

For God's sake. He just woke up from a coma.

And the judge says, you have my sympathy and I'll have your passport.

Bail is one million. I like that.

Casey is chasing Rebecca, being like, girl, we've got a rock solid case. You've got nothing, and Rebecca's like, Lincoln doesn't even know what happened, he's confused, and she's like, oh, he confused murder with a little slap and tickle. That's what Casey says, and Rebecca goes, oh, go for it, Casey, make fun of a guy with a brain injury. The jury's gonna love that, and Casey's like, no, jury is buying what you're selling.

And then she hands a.

Motion to Casey and Casey goes, football made him do it. That's almost as good as the Twinkie defense, which they've said in other episodes. We love talking about the twinkie defense. Rebecca says, Nope, it's even better. Now they're in judge's chambers and Rebecca arguing that Lincoln has had eight concussions and repeated head trauma that has irreparably damaged his brain. Casey's like, well, other athletes have head trauma and don't

You can't find out until you slice someone's brain open.

Really. Yeah, that's like they don't know anybody has like CTE or like that kind of dementia, like I think until they fully cut their brains open in autopsy.

I didn't know that. Yeah. So then it's like, then you can't really sue the NFL because you're dead.

But he the judge is like okay, and then she's like, well, the detectives ignored his head trauma when they questioned him, and Casey's like, there's no proof he's impaired, and the judge goes, well, there's no proof he isn't, so have your guy examine him. Obviously, we're at the neuropsych lab. I don't think I've ever noticed that card before.

What's that? It's just Huang.

It's it's Huang's little lab of like different connected dots, like neurological tests that he puts people through.

Okay.

So Huang is questioning Lincoln about his headaches, which he says sometimes he has them every day. It's like his head is in a vice. It feels like he's getting stabbed in the eye. He tells him to memorize the words house, pencil, and green. Memorize those, and then he asks him a bunch of personal questions and he runs all these cognitive tests, like while Lincoln's like connecting like different like blue balls to different things or whatever.

I'm sorry.

All I'm remembering are like these little blue circles connected by lines that he's doing in one of his cognitive tests. And he asks him a question and then he goes, what are the three words? And Lincoln goes, pencil boat And he can't even guess the third word. Okay, so it was house, pencil green, it was not boat, So he only got one word. And then he goes, that's crazy. Why can't I remember that? And you know that this makes me think of being a stoner.

And you know Marsha's also the stoner like me, and I decided after this weekend that I can't hang out with her anymore. We make the same mistakes. It's like it was crazy. And so we're like at my apartment, I'm grabbing a raincoat. We know it's gonna rain. We're headed to a protest, like we know it, we're raincoat, We're gonna do all this stuff. We both didn't bring an umbrella. Discussing the rain for twenty minutes as I like get my raincoat, everything going.

We're like getting port no umbrella, we didn't bring one. Umbrellas are by the door.

She's like which way? Like we were both just like out of control. We walked on the wrong train platform and then we missed the train, and I go, god, we cannot go anywhere together.

Me Julia as a chaperone. If the two of you are going to be there, it's got to be Julia as a chap We got on the wrong platform, Like, we just kept fucking up the wrong platform.

You've been living in New York.

Result, we ran because we saw the train arrive, and so we like ran and I go, this is fucking downtown.

And then we had a run up and we missed it. Oh my god, hilarious. It was really it was just silly. It was silly. I was like, we're we should not be allowed out together.

A feminist cheech and Chong perhaps pitch it im a.

Text savior text figure because we both have currently hair too.

That's funny.

So Lincoln is basically like, fuck why I can't remember anything?

And then Huang Go's reporting back to the Gang.

Huang's like, Okay, his immediate and long term memory are fine, but short term is impaired, not from the beating. He has lesions on his brain that he shows them from like an MRI, and there's evidence he.

Has a seizure disorder.

But his last concussion was last year, because Stabler remembers exactly when he got clotheslined last and it was like

Okay.

So now in court, Rebecca is questioning Lincoln about what happened when he gets knocked out on the field, like what does that feel like? And he's like, I get headaches, I'm dizzy, I'm sensitive to light, I'm forgetful. And then they're like for example, and he goes, well, like recently, I got my mom seats to a game, and when she didn't show up, my mom told me that I had called her screaming that she's a jinx and I told her not to come.

And he's like, I love my mom. I don't know why I did that, and he.

Doesn't remember doing it, and Casey's like, okay, it's my turn. You confess to murdering Jeremy and he goes I was confused. I remember we argued, but I never hit him. And no Vak corners him about how football was his life and Jeremy pushed him to come out and you didn't want your secret exposed, and Lincoln's like, I didn't care.

Jeremy came first. That's why I married him. Dunked on.

They're married in Canada a private ceremony and he has the license.

It doesn't mean that much. I guess, like, is he Canadian?

I don't know, Like at that point, if you're not married in the US, I don't know if it it's kind of like a fun little thing to drop, but I don't know if it's you know, all right, So now Novak is pissed. She's walking with Benson and Stabler and she goes, how did you miss his big fat gay wedding? And Stabler is like, well, Stabler very rightfully goes,

Has funny who would do that to their daughter? And it's like a lot of people, a lot. Yeah.

Novaka's like, well no, now he's sympathetic, like he was gay bashed and he almost died, and like it does it does kind of change things from oh they were just shady undercover gay lovers who they had an actual wedding ceremony and they are in love and like life partners, right, Like, I guess that could change things for some of the jurors. And so he's like, Casey's like the women on the panel love him, they want to make him all better.

Uh oh.

Rebecca is now questioning Stabler on the stand and goes, did Lincoln seem confused or anything? And Stabler's like nope, and She's like, huh really hours after a coma?

Just all good?

And she goes, didn't you supply my client with most of the details that were found in his confession? You bullied him and coerced him, And stablesh playing it cool, like no, we discussed what happened calmly. And then Rebecca goes, he was fresh out of a coma and would have confessed to killing Kennedy And Stable's like, well, he definitely didn't do that, and Rebecca's like, he had brain damage and your psychiatrist said so, And Stabler said, I've watched

I don't know football very well. You know, you know it, you're a new football girl.

So I don't really think of QB's as being the guys that are like the real violent guys, but right, I don't.

Know, You're right, they're the ones getting sacked and hit and like bullied or protected. They're like the little golden boys. They're the dorks of the team. If anything, they're usually the hot the hot dorks.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I never think of Tom Brady as being like like a violent but they are.

You know, he is, He's like, he is so agro.

He's very much he doesn't eat tomatoes like he's that's true.

If you don't eat night shades, you're gonna be a jerk.

He's just he's just someone that like winning over Ever, I think aggression and competitive spirit are obviously different too. I think quarterbacks are like obviously very hard working, very competitive. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, so like but I don't know if competitiveness equals aggression or not. But I don't even know if it's position based, because like you could still like hit your helmet or be mad or like have a tantrum, you know, Like I don't know.

Also if you have.

Brain damage that can cause aggression, you know, so like that's all part of it like, but Rebecca says, you're stereotyping him because he's a football player. He is not a killer. And then Casey asks for recess. She wants to bring in a TV to show footage of Lincoln playing, and Rebecca's like objection, and they're like, you open the door when you brought up Stabler's bias. Now we have to watch footage of him playing to show that he's violent,

Goes, I just broke up with Kurt.

You said you'd be there for me, and he goes, I am, But Eli is driving Kathy crazy.

Never forget that this.

Earlier this season, Stabler had his fifth fucking child that he's never around for and they didn't name it after Olivia, who helped fucking save Kathy from a Jaws of Life car situation mid labor.

Yeah.

Yeah, she says, I'm kidding, get out of here or whatever.

And then the.

Bartender goes, hey, Olivia, your case is on the TV. I think because he wanted too much from her. Oh, He's like, move in with me, move in, you know, I can help you. I could say, she doesn't let people in like that, not at this stage, you know.

What's this bathroom situation all about?

So now they've got Gary in a room so dark it literally looks like it's being illuminated by candlelight. It's like there is one candle in the corner. The room is pitch black. How did you find out that Lincoln was gay? And he goes, I told you Natasha called me after you outed him. And they're like, what about the night the four of you had dinner? Did you suspect anything then? And he's like, I don't know what you're talking about. And then Live cuts to the chase.

This guy doesn't know his home has been searched yet. This is wild.

So you saw Lincoln kissing Jeremy in the bathroom, and all those years of hard work making Lincoln a star and to see that, and he goes, it made me want a puke, going at it like a pair of horny teenagers. So he goes, I went to Jeremy's place and talk some sent it to him and he told

Five? Ten?

If there's a miracle, why couldn't you just waited a couple of years? And now so that guy just clearly for a fixer, for a guy who fixes things professionally. He really just gave it to them all. They're like, what, we found the murder up and he's like, great, they've got me. I'm going to jail for forty years. Like I don't know, he just gave it to them. So now they're in prison, springing Lincoln Haveer, who explains like, yeah, I confess because I remember being there, I remember fighting.

I thought I must have done it. And they're like, well, I think you'll get back.

To the game now, and he's like, no, the doctors won't let me play because of my permanent brain damage.

Then I wonder if.

He still gets his forty mil I don't think so, right, I don't know, Yeah, and he goes, I had it all a man, I loved a career, football, gave me everything, and then took it all away.

And he walks off, And that's dick woo baby. I think, I mean, I'm sorry. I think Benson is the one who took it all away.

It wasn't for Benson, like his lover would have been murdered, which is devastating his husband. But she's the reason everyone found out and even lost his career.

But do you think if they had found out that the agent did it, Like, what would the motive? Like, what would everybody have had assumed that the motive would be.

Then he could have badged him or whatever, but like.

There would have been The thing is is like there can always be rumors, Like there's there can always be little rumors. The rumors don't always necessarily lead to like losing stuff, you know. It's like when there's some kind of like proof or whatever. Anyway, take me to the reality of the real case.

Well, the real case.

We're going to a different kind of football, what we would call soccer. So we're going to the UK, baby, so it's foot Yeah. So this is about Justin Fashionu, who is a British soccer player who was the first professional football to come out as gay. He was born in nineteen sixty one and raised in Hackney with his

So it's Justin and John.

They both played football and for years they were the only black people they ever saw in their lives until they were like eighteen nineteen years old, like everyone was white and that was life for them, and to the Guardian, according to them, like the brothers said, it was the easiest way for us to make money. There were no black bankers, lawyers or anything at all. We knew the only way to make money if you were black was either a saying dance or play football.

That's it.

And so that's what these these brothers did. And he ended up winning like the BBC's Goal of the Season award in nineteen eighty against Liverpool and just he was a really good player. In nineteen eighty one he joined the Nottingham Forest and he was so he was transferred from Norwich City. Like this is where it gets crazy. I'm like, I don't this sounds like Robin Hood era, Like I don't know what is this, So the Dottingham Forest. So he's in Norwich City, which sounds like a chip brand.

I love that he was able to sort of at least reclaim his own story and cut off the other publication scoop.

He basically scooped his own story. I like that.

Yeah, and he also needed money. I think he got like seventy grand so I don't know, but the John was pissed. John was homophobic. He would try and bribe him for money not to come out, and after he did, he publicly blashed him, condemned him for going public, said he would never want to play with him, get changed with him. But it's like it is also your brother gay or not, Like, yeah, there's more issues. Yeah, if he wants to insist, it's just like it's so homophobic

Fuck is that? Yeah, mid Lothian god of fucking.

Life, guys, can you just be the like the saber Tooth Tigers, Like I can't with these cities.

But he was mocked.

So he had these like great years of playing, but like mocked by opposing players.

And this is nothing new.

I just saw a video of like a really really young black player cried during a press conference after a game because none of the media was addressing it.

But it's like they're racist as fuck.

They throw bananas at black players like they're kind of evil. So it's like, not only did you have to deal with that, but of course he's gonna get mocked for being gay and the fans hated it, you know, like by opposing players, but his fans mostly supported him and his teammates and whatever. So but then The Daily Mail wrote that after he came out that his career declined.

It's like I don't I.

Don't know, but he did eventually have to come to America. So that's a downgrade for soccer obviously, like if you have to come to America, you're not good, Like you're.

Not as good as other people.

His last match for the US was on a team called the Atlanta Ruckus in nineteen ninety seven, and then in nineteen ninety eight he became a coach of the Maryland Now On March twenty fifth, nineteen ninety eight, he's accused of sexual assault by a seventeen year old male. His brother John is like it wasn't true, but so he was accused and then there was a questioning and some blood tests and a warrant was issued for his arrest.

But what if he did it.

He did it, it's still sad, yeah, but it's just like there was just let me just finish and then we can get into like the nitty gritty of our thoughts on this, because this isn't black and white, so fashion U did maintain that relations were consensual. Also in Maryland, the age of consent is sixteen, but we don't care about that. I don't know, Like, but also at this time in Maryland, just being homosexual was illegal, like sodally,

So it's like it was all tragic but he was a good player.

I don't know, and I couldn't really find any like good research, and like the things I did find were like editorial. It was like people's opinions and sports journalists. But that's like not something I can use. And so in twenty eighteen, his brother John did admaze like I was a monster to Justine when he came out, and then as anisamal fashion, new set up justin fashion new foundation dedicated to her uncle. But one website is not active anymore. The posts are a year long. Another site

I don't know, and there's no information.

Yeah yeah, I mean, I just I just, I mean, I if he committed a crime, I obviously don't condone that, but I just feel like it must have just been an extremely hard life of being other to not only be the only black person for the first almost twenty years of your life that you even see is your brother and you, and then to have this additional thing of your sexuality where your brother even rejects you when

And that's the other Like all this other news that I found was mostly as brother talking and I'm like, I don't trust you.

Yeah yeah, yeah. Suddenly you're changing the narrative and there was like.

A show made about his life, Like there's like all this stuff and it was just him promoting and apologizing, but also all this like I mean stuff in the press.

So it was just like kind of difficult.

Yeah, it's so crazy to me that there's not a single football player in the UK that's out, like just statistically, there's definitely a bunch of gay football players.

You know, it's just not worth it. Yeah, yeah, I get it. It's kind of like, yeah, people are so backwards.

Well, we have a great interview that is going to change everything.

Don't go anywhere. Our guest today is.

A prolific TV actor who was in the main cast of such shows as Saving Grace, Longmire, and twenty four Legacy. Also featured in some beloved nineties classics like Sweet Valley High and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. But you know him today as the closeted NFL player Lincoln Haveber. Please enjoy our chat with the lovely Bailey Chase. I mean, I want to start off real quick with if Wikipedia is correct about you.

You played football at Duke.

That's true.

That's true.

They also yeah, they said I'm worth fifty million dollars too.

I wish that were sure.

Yeah, the net worth things on the internet are amazingas Wait, so do.

You feel like your football past helped book with your special skills?

Yes, navigating people on the streets of New York football comes in here. You know that that was such a so whatever, I'm going to jump ahead. I did a soap opera for like three years in New York. It was right after nine to eleven, and I was doing the thing out in la and a lot of my college buddies went into finance and literally work on Wall Street, and so I felt this call to go there, and I got offered the soap opera. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna go do that, and it was

Yeah? Wait?

Which yea?

Was it?

As the world turns? Is that what you do?

And then I lived in Tribecca, was just above Grand Zeo, and then I would drive by and go through the tunnel to work.

Because they did they did, they shoot all the soaps in Jersey.

So this one was in Brooklyn. I think it's where they shot the Honeymooners and some some like old time shows. And then As the World Turns was god, it went fifty two years or something.

Yeah, I can't soaps. Well, I was so ssessed. I mean s for you kind of in a way. It's like my soap, you know, just one main character who I care about.

Really wait, but I do haven't As the World Turns because I was watching an interview with someone else, but they said doing soaps help them learn how to like memorize a lot and work fast and all these things like is that how you felt?

Did you learn a lot?

I did? Yeah, I wasn't so sure that, you know, like all young actors who take themselves too seriously and I was guilty of that. I was like, no, I'm just gonna do like movies like Brad Pitt, right, like Tom Cruise. And then reality sets in and I had had a little bit of success or whatever, but all that that money comes and goes, and I was broke and I was like twenty nine years old, like what am I going to do? And it did? It helped teach me how to become a pro. And you log,

Yeah. You know, it's funny because we talked to so many people who obviously have done SVU and they all talk about how quick it is, like because it's like a well oiled machine, and like the crew is really well like a depth and everything, and they'll just do sort of coverage and you know, two sides or whatever. But I've never really asked soap stars, do you guys do multiple takes or is it just like so so fast, because it's like it's every day you just got to

Really, it's like must be lightning speed.

It is lightning speed, And if you're a perfectionist at all, which which you know, I've gotten better about nothing. But yeah, you they just fly. They just keep it unless it's a disaster, and then it's kind of a big deal to like go back whatever. But no, when I was doing it, you know, seventeen years ago, it was yeah, we didn't do two takes.

Yeah, never, Oh my gosh, just like you better nail it, get out of here.

Yeah yeah. Yeah, And some people washed out, and then other people stayed forever.

Susan Lucci one of the greats.

Oh wild, But you were booking such cool stuff right as you started, were you like, oh I got it?

Yeah, they watched it.

I mean Buffy, I get like so many cool things.

Yeah. Once Buffy happened, I was like, oh yeah, I made it. You know, it took three years, okay, But for.

Me, it was before that when we were on Sweet Valley High, the TV show, because that is an iconic part of my childhood. Oh my god, I forgot about I mean, yeah, Kara's very connected.

I love Sweet Valley High. Tell me I just love like I loved her album.

Her comedy album is artwork, as Kara in the art from the books, So.

I commissioned the guy who did the famous covers of the books to do the cover of my album. So it's me as twins like on the cover of my album. And like, I don't even know if like he's still with us, but like I was so happy that I found this guy and he was doing commissions and stuff. But then I was obsessed with those twins that played the Twins. Those two out like they're there, they're twins, actresses, they still do stuff, but.

They're from Florida. Yeah, yeah, I know them, Brittany and Cynthia Daniel.

Yeah, they're like on they've done like Blackett or like an Housewife and yeah, all kind of there. And that show was just I don't know that for me when I was reading your IMDb, that's what popped first. And then my husband was like, well he was on Buffy and he was like looking up who you were Buffy because he was a big Buffy fan. Yeah, and then

I mean like these are these are like.

Yeah, I mean Sarah Michelle Gellar like Maurusia Arbitat, you've worked with a lot of like powerhouse women.

It's cool I have and thank you, and yeah, I was raised by a single mom and and so you know, I have a lot of respect in MoMA's Boy. And yeah after you know, doing a series with with someone like Holly like you know, not a whole lot phases me. And so Glenn Close is definitely in that category.

And yeah, we got to get her the oscar. It's not it's it's it's a it's a it's really a travesty. Let's let's dive into the actual s view now, like because we obviously we'll keep talking to you about your career, but we usually we've done this a little bit backwards. We normally start with s you, so you what was your what was going on in your career? Like when you got us, when you got this big part on this SVU episode. I mean this is season nine, the

Yeah, like, yeah, so this is post soap opera and all that stuff. You know. I left after the three years, and I was lucky my first kind of within a year, I was on Saving Grace with the Holly Hunter. And this was you know, way back when film stars weren't dead like there were. You had your soap stars, your TV stars, and your film stars and they were all separate. Yeah, and after and everything was separate. And then you're all your theater actors, which I'm not good tough to do.

And yeah, yeah, that's so, that's so cool because I feel like some actors would have maybe turned it down or you know know, like two thousand and eight. It's like it seems like modern, but there's there, you know, and we always talk about SVU is like ahead of

Of these social issues.

So this episode really sticks that because it's relevant. It's like, yeah, and it's also sad that it's been seventeen years and nothing. Yeah, there's still not really I mean we talk about it when we did the recap. I think there was like one out player and he retired after a couple of seasons and uh you know, yeah, like you really captured the sort of whole, the journey. Yeah, the whole and

Yeah.

You passed the ball through your like between your legs.

Yeah, and then you all jump on top of each other.

Yeah, it's true, it's true. Yeah, it's that's when you hike the ball.

One of the most famous shots, I would say an SVU history is the cemetery night vision, them finally realizing it's you were you actually at a cemetery?

Did you go shoot at a cemetery?

You know, I don't remember the cemetery. I remember a lot of things about that episode. It was so it was it was the coolest part was going to Giant Stadium.

We got to oh yeah, it was where you guys were practicing.

Yeah, we played football in the meadowlands and that that was really cool. And in college I'd had the chance to play there against Rutgers, but it was just we had the whole place to ourselves. And you're out there with these you know, crew guys, and obviously crew guys in you know New York, New Jersey are very different than the l A Crew guys. So we were all like playing football when whenever we could, and and and

Wow, it's a really good and.

You got to as anybody ever said that on your show before.

Yeah, we've said it to me that this is your best work ever.

I mean you also got to We like to talk about something that we call like the SVU Bingo card, like where you get to do a few different specific things and like what you got. You hit a lot of them. One is around the head bandage all the way when you're in the hospital. We love them, all the way around the head bandage. You also got to code, you got to like almost die. Uh, you're on the stand. You're on the stand. You got Olivia Benson cradled you in her arms. I mean these are all huge moments.

You you have.

You have bingo basically on sv Bingo as we have made. We actually should make the cards. We have to make the actual Bingo cards.

Wait, the other bingo moment. Yeah, and misterpher and Maloney whispered in your ear. He got real close. That's kind of a that's a thing of his.

He gets close, especially like an episode that's like that's like dealing with a guy that's in the closet and then Christopher Maloney's like up there whispering in your ear. Like he gets close enough to kiss most of the purpse on the show. But it was especially funny how he was just like, so, this is what happened, and he's like whispering his whole hypothesis in your ear.

How was working with him?

Yeah, he was. He was interesting. I liked him a lot. He's intense. He's intense and you know, just an alpha of an alpha male and uh and so it was it was kind of interesting, like you know because I show up and whatever, and you know it's I wasn't doing anything like this is his turf and whatever. I'm not like lifting my lego and stuff. But he had he did have a bad day where he was throwing stuff and I was like, okay, like whatever, But then

He didn't play football with you guys, No, no, no, ss.

What did he throw.

Some equipment? Yeah, like some lighting stuff you got fell down lighting his hell like some Yeah, he was upset about something and then and then cut to cut to like a year later, he leaves the show like he wasn't around the next season. But then obviously he didn't burn too many bridges because he comes back.

Yeah.

Yeah, Well we've talked to the showrunners and stuff about that, and they're like, it's was all purely like contractual, like it was just contract stuff like that. The reason he didn't come back, Like I think he liked doing the show or whatever, but it was you know, but yeah, he left after season twelve. So but like, uh so wait you also, I mean so many more bingo things. You get a celebrity lawyer, bevery ly D'Angelo is your lawyer? Oh yeah, okay, we've had her on the pod and we love her.

How was working with her amazing? She actually exactly what you see is what you get. She's the bomb.

Oh. We could have talked to her for like three hours. We were like, we have to go, like it was.

She was the best.

She was like, let me tell you more about al Pacino. We were like okay, yeah, yeah. And then another thing is you got to be psychologically, uh neurologically analyzed by B. D. Wong George Wong, one of our favorite characters, and I'm obsessed with this scene. When I did the recap of the episode, I was just like, how it's mostly your voiceover and then it's you just like connecting dots on a board, Like do you remember doing all these like

Definitely, I guess I guess. Yeah. No, I do remember doing some some tests, but I didn't research that the right you know, validity of but beat. I remember Bead. He was great, Yeah, everybody was Yeah. It was fun and it turned out like really really good. I remember the casting director saying years later he hired me for Chicago Pad. It was another kind of offer thing.

I think I was coming off a Longmire and I was like, yeah, I definitely would love to do that, and he's like, you know, I have cast however, many thousand episodes and that's one of my favorite ones.

Yeah, how about that huge?

How about that knowledge?

Yeah, I think that one. It's definitely one of the classes. It's definitely one of the classics.

It's definitely like, yeah, and then now you're doing a lot of cowboys stuff.

Yeah, yeah, how that happened?

Yes?

Yeah.

Do you think it is it the vibe is it now that you're in or do you think North Carolina affected the cowboy connection?

It's a good question. I think I think I'm I. I guess it started with Saving Grace because I was Oklahoma, and then Longmire, which was you know, Wyoming. But but I did grow up riding, so my dad stayed in Barrington Hills. Actually he's a fox hunter. So my brother and I had ponies. It's kids, so we you know, it's like riding a bike when you start young. Like I've always been able to ride pretty well, and.

So your resume special skills are good. You can play football and you're riding horses.

Yeah, I think I should actually maybe put horseback riding above my name. I don't know, yeah, but yeah, I am. I'm good on a horse. Gonna say so that that's true. Uh, and I think there yeah, there aren't a ton of actors who can ride well. But it did. It just kind of happened because I'm you know, Chicago, raised in Florida,

There's also like a huge demand for this stuff now.

I think since Yellowstone got so popular, right like now, there's like a demand for all more cowboys. Not that cowboys stuff hasn't been a huge part of American entertainment for a long time. But I feel like now I'm seeing so many Yellowstone adjacent You're right.

And then there was a pilot season of the Yellowstone knockoff, yes, and those didn't last because there's only one Yellowstone, and Ohmire was pretty good but never quite did what Yellowstone did. But but yeah, I agree with you, a total resurgence. And so there was a moment there where you know, I was getting ready to do a new show. I was actually going to do a comedy, right, and then the pandemic everything got shut down and then didn't work

Wow.

So I was going to ask you, so like having your family in North Carolina, but then being an actor, like you must be kind of on the road a lot, right, like you just commute to work and.

Kind kind of kind of now and and so how that started to happen out of the pandemic. And when I was, you know, New Year, I was just leaving for a month or two months at a time and go, do you know like a Christmas movie? Because I needed the money or it's also cool to make things that your kids can can watch. Yeah, so I'm proud of my two little Christmas nooze and then uh and then the westerns do you tend to get offered to me? Now? And and those are great because as you know, I

Oh yeah, that's actually what I'm hoping for White the next White Lotus.

I want snow. Oh well, a great idea I thought they were. Parker Posey said it should be in the Alps so people can get where people should get gratitude, like crazy altitude weirdness, altitude sickness.

Yeah, it's a thing. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. We got married and Aspen and my wife got it. It's an actual Wow. Yeah we did ski wedding.

That's cool. Wow you ski too, another thing on your list of the skills, geezus.

So you're going to do snow riding skiing time? What's Florida wild?

Oh? Another Western So it's always kind of a dream of mine to go back to Florida and work. I'd never you know, filmed anything down there. And uh and there's a sky marked Pentecost too. You know, had this this dream and he built this old western town on his ranch. And the movies based on this book about how they used to do these cattle drives back, you know, through the Everglades and they get them out to the railroad.

It's so cool. I just got back from Florida two days ago.

I was there. Oh, Sarasota.

Okay, so that's where you fly.

Into you fly Tampa, but you know s r Q.

Yeah yeah, yeah, So I'm actually going back to Sarasota for a thing down there. And then you go out to a place called Mayaca City, middle of nowhere. There's like an elephant sanctuary got there. So it's technically not the Everglades but just north of but it's all like Marshy kind of same same topography.

Oh that's awesome. So you have a lot coming up and you're doing a lot.

Yeah yeah, oh yeah, I almost forgot. There's another one that just came out in theaters on Friday. It's called Sod and Stubble. Another Western kind of you know, pioneer back when Kansas was a frontier based on a book, real life story. This one's a little more you know, it's hard, it's hard living back in the teen eighties, and you go like stick your claim. But yeah, Soud and Stubbles in theaters right now, Florida Wilds on Deck and then Homestead or Homestead All.

Right, Well, you're like, that's like a good success story of like someone who moved to like a different part of the country and can still like be doing acting.

You know, like that's great.

Yeah, and yet not to get all religious about it, but it did take a real leap of faith, and being back here in North Carolina, I feel more supported. Like I actually, after doing this for twenty five years, was like I might have to find a new profession, and so I should. You know, I'm happy to speak candidly for any of the other actors out there in the audience. But I took this sleep of faith, and you know, he caught me. And I feel supported and I'm excited about the future.

And I guess if you had to make a career change where you could be like a football coach or a horse wrangler, or you could say, or a ski instructor. I mean there's a few things I feel like you can fall back on.

Apparently I'm pretty good at bingos.

Yeah, yeah, bingo. Yes, down at church. You gotta run church, Bingo. Thank you so much for talking to us and taking the time. This was so fun. We got an NFL Lincoln Haver on the on the pod.

It's huge. It's a fun things. I love it.

I love it. Thank you.

Wow, good chats, good talk. Same issues. We'll never progress as humans. I don't know what I like is that's what's keeping us down thinking we can get But I mean, I'm sure it's better. I feel like there are a lot of gultees in the streets.

I get it. I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, athletics is definitely an area where things are slow to change.

But yeah, this episode.

Wait, I just got a text that like pops up on my screen while we're recording, and it's it's from a friend and it says, is Lisa vander Pump running a brothel?

Question mark.

What.

I'll get back to that after we're done recording, of course, but I thought I would share with everyone. Yeah, athletics does move slowly, but I am thinking about just like that woman that tried to run the first the Boston Marathon and people like truly we're trying to rip her down and pull her away, and like the fake pseudoscience that's used to like have prevented women from wing sports.

I feel like women have made huge.

Progress, Yes, and we've got you exactly, and like like now there's like female.

They're all major teams, and you know.

Like we're getting we're getting progressive there, but like I still think to.

Be I was on my football team in eighth grade.

Yeah, of course Lisa a pioneer bursting those doors open, of course, but I just like I still feel like you as like if you're like a gay NBA player, NFL player, you're like you're probably just not coming out until you're retiring, because even if you're like accepted by your teammates, you're probably not getting that Gatorade deal or whatever that. Like they talk about what's the d what's the drink called in this one? Something stupid that I

But Benson ruined it. I mean, Benson definitely outed this man. Yes, all of the fallout is because of Benson. Sorry, like sorry, not sorry.

I don't know that they've ever given her such a blunder before, like that, She's obviously made mistakes, she's been wrong about the suspect and stuff, but like such a thing where it's like you ruin this man's career, like you ruined this man's fucking life.

Yeah, you're right, we got to think of it. But yeah, it's a bad one. I can but that bitch. They should have arrested her for something and like put her in the box. I don't know, she couldn't text. Oh, they should have breaken all the roads.

Not pretty enough for me? Swim on the cover of the Swimsuit issue.

Yeah, yeah, she's a beautiful girl.

It's just like, well she she said the F word. I think we can let it go. But the actress, yes, the actress pretty.

You don't think they already got someone booked for this big time spread, like maybe she could be in it. But the cover of Sports Illustrates to me is just like it's like the September issue of Vogue.

It's like this is like months in advance.

It's really crazy how much it was ingrained into our youth. Like I would be like in eighth grade being like who got the cover? Like what do I give a shit? I never read Yeah, ma, oh my god, whoever gets fifty most Beautiful people on People magazine? Like the cover of that was like it had me in a choke hold. I was obsessed with all of those magazine covers.

Now print media is.

Like please, please by thing. You know, I just bought a People. By the way, I just bought a People magazine. I used to be kind of really into People on the airplane and whenever I would travel, and then when they had Trump on the cover, like right after he got elected the first time, and I think EG and Carol used to write for People. I was like, oh, fuck you guys, like I'm done with People, but I

This is relevant to our genre.

Okay, he's now dating Savannah Chrisly from Chrisly Knows Best the Man. Okay, but the cover story is about and actually he just broke up with Savannah out of nowhere, and she's very upset about it, but at the time he's still dating her. She he's so rich somehow, this guy that.

They have a private plane.

He gets into a huge fight with his wife because she wants to use the private plane to go down to the Bahamas, but he knows she's going to see her new boyfriend. They're still living together even though they're separated, so he's like, no, you're not allowed to. So then she texts her boyfriend and her boyfriend's friend in the Bahamas kill him or something like that, because she sees a picture of him in the Bahamas with his girlfriend. So she's like pissed, and she texts kill him that

Uh.

She doesn't say she's she's on trial, like she's literally going to trial for a murder plot of her husband.

And I read this.

People article, I'm like, am I are you guys this desperate to sell magazines?

Like this is not even a case.

Like there's a fucking serial killer possibly in New England and like that no one's paying attention to Oh my.

God, yes, And I was in herd Island when I found out about it. Oh yeah, god, wait hold on, I'm trying to read this while you're telling me about it. I'm like overwhelmed. The christly Like I just I'm like, what the fuck? Like if ever, every time I said kill him was in my phone and I was on trial for murder, right, It's.

Like if you are like exactly, like if we were like we think Mark Zuckerberg should be in front of a firing squad, It's like they come in and they get us like like the she did not exchange any money with them, didn't say, hey, he normally is at this diner at this time. Go get him, like there was no plot in place, and this woman's like literally having to go down to the Bahamas and go to trial all the time. It's crazy. And then this guy dumps the Vanna Christly on her ass. That Christly guy's

Again, I can't. I can't.

Yeah, but we've been getting some messages from listeners about this New England serial killer. I mean, the cops are saying they're not connected. It's oh really, yeah. I first think there's not a ton of like that kind of murder, serial murdering I feel like happening in like New England, And so I think all of the I say that as a New Englander, I don't think there's a lot of good law enforcement, Like I don't think they have precedent.

I don't think they know what. They're like doing a lot, you know, when it's ten bodies now found in less than two months. But it's kind of like with the Long Island killer, the cops and the chief of whatever. I was like, no, no, no, not connect Ell. She wanted to go like they're fucking animals. Like, I don't know what to tell you. They have their own little secret cult going on.

It's at least getting a little bit oppressed now, but I don't know if the cops are doing anything about it.

Label it, yeah, officials address rumors, you know, like they don't want to. Well, now an aar restumate in a homicide of New England women one day ago. So but it's people dot com. I don't know if we like, wait, you know what case John Kultfo was arrested in connection with the death of Suzanne worms start and you know what, everyone everyone was bringing up the read case like I couldn't get on stage.

Can't of course Rhode Island, like I said, it's Massachusetts, cousin.

There's too much crime. I can't keep up with all of this and live a life.

Well, the other thing I was going to say, too, is that they've been wrapping up the trial of that guy who traveled to Idaho to kill a bunch of beautiful little kids.

I mean not kids.

They're like college students, but they're like, you know, they didn't do anything, and if they.

Did something, they don't deserve No, no, I know, but you know what I mean, like they weren't. They weren't.

There's no perfect victims. But it's like they didn't even know this person. They didn't even know this man.

And I don't even think he's maintains death penalty as possible, Okay, because I was about to be like, and I bet he's not even getting Yeah.

I think they're trying to get this guy. And I think Idaho.

I just read something that Idaho maybe does firing squad. I don't know.

Yeah, according in March, the governor of Idaho said that he signed a law last month that the firing squad will be the primary death penalty in Idaho. So this guy might get firing squad.

I don't know. There is too much crime.

Let's move in to the next segment of our show, What would Sister Peg Do? This is where we direct you guys towards a resource, an article, a book, a documentary something to give you more info about what we've talked about in today's episode and this week for WWSPD, I wanted to point out in light of our amazing president, honestly he's crushing all aspects of his leadership. In light of him, I guess cutting funding for the LGBTQ Suicide Hotline.

And thank you for that.

And next week we'll be doing the episode Risk Season four, episode twelve, and kind of follows Warren Light's Rules four Letters, season four, So.

That's true, Free war Light Rule.

An exciting day for all of us here at the That's Messed Up Podcast with that coincidence. Listen, there's so much murder. I felt like the post mortem was just like and this scale.

And there's this and what's going on. I'm like, I can't even read. I can't even read. I gotta get outside.

Oh, thank you guys so much for listening. We love you. We'll see you next week.

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