Chasing Demons w/ Brett Gray

Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on. These are our stories, done done. Hello, welcome to That's Messed Up an sv podcast.

My name is Lisa, I am a host of this show. My name is Kara, and I'm the other host of this show. And you guys hopefully know what we're doing.

But maybe you.

Decided to join at episode sixty six and you don't, And so I'll tell you that. We talk about an episode of Law and Order SVU, we talk about the true crime it was based on, and then we interview somebody awesome involved with the episode.

And yeah, and today is a sweet one.

Yeahday's really that might be a clue, but whatever, Yeah it's Yeah, since it's you know, it's not Dean Winter, So get your panty. Yeah, put your vibrators back in, pack them up. Dean Winters is not here.

Yeah, that's what I wrote off for the caption on the Instagram for the home mark I was like, it's Cassidy heavy for all you mayhem horn dogs.

Well, I just yeah, if you guys know him, Please help us get him. We cannot get him to do this podcast. And obviously we.

Definitely want Cassidy.

If you've got the hookup, if you had a one night stand with Cassidy. I don't know, he's probably married, but just like let us know, Lisa, I have to tell you today. I this morning, before seven am, I got busted talking shit about somebody in a group chat what I thought was a private one on one text, and it was my own brother.

You talked about Colin, Yes.

And I know he listens to this podcast and he and I've already apologized to him, and he was very gracious and accepted my apology. It wasn't talking shit about him. It was like, it's tough about his wedding. We're just trying to figure out, like Rosie's gonna be a flower girl.

I'm really I know.

I saw the post, but it didn't hit me what wedding. I saw that Lerosi was gonna be a flower girl, and I was like what where?

What?

Yeah? I fucking forgot Colin.

So my brother's getting married in September and all the siblings are in the wedding, which is so cool, like because you know, like tech. You know, he could have just had a bunch of guy friends or whatever or girlfriends, but he has. He's having his sisters in it too, so that's cool. So we're all in it, and we're all gonna wear black, and I was like, that's fine, and then he was like so and I was like, so what about the flower girls? Should they wear white

Like a funeral? And I go, oh, yeah, he's texting just me because.

That's such a shit talk. But it was on the sibling thread, so I wrote, yes, that's what I said, and I think it's kind of insane and it's gonna look ugly.

And I was like going off about these fower girl dresses.

And then you just get that hit where you're like, fuck, this is fully the group thread.

Colin is in there, Yeah.

But this is okay. I do like that it's about flower girl dresses.

And oh, I'm not like I hate his fian Yeah, no, I deeply love his fiance.

I well, I didn't love you know, I'll never forget that. They both ordered duck when we went out to dinner, and they're gonna have to work through that for the rest of their lives.

Two duck orders. Yeah, but anyway, did you see the three bubbles? No?

So he did it respond for hours and I side texted him.

First of all, i'mso a doctor. He's busy.

Well, I wrote into the chat and I said, I'm so sorry. I really thought that I was just talking. I was just talking to Kevin on the side. I thought I was talking to Kevin on the side. I'm sorry. I'll do whatever you want. It's your wedding, you know. And then I sigh texted him and I was like, I'm really sorry. I thought I was just talking to Kevin and we were talking shit. I apologize and he

I can't take it, and he goes, I'm just busy.

Like he finally wrote me back and was like, you need to calm down, Like I was busy and I'm not silent treatment in you at all. So anyway, I just you know that feeling where you're just like, fuck, I sent this to the wrong person and totally very low stakes, like like flower girl dresses.

What when you first?

I mean for all the people that we know mutually when and all the group chats, I know that you're in. Yes, the violence that could have been had, so to me, it was like a relief. It's the bride'smaid's dress or the flower like I am. I honestly was like yeah. The things that were going through my head were, yeah, you're right, you're right. I should have breakfast it with like it's not what you think. But I also love

Put her in a pink dress. Let us have our fancas.

Yeah, so he basically did Mortelle green like a gemstone a pastel.

Why not, Well, that's what I said. He said, it's a gay wedding. We're doing all black.

I mean I thought there'd be a pop of color, you know, But he did say that the some of the flowers are gonna be light pink. So I think we're gonna go with light pink. It's honestly just hard to find black. Like it's not even like I can't. I could find something cute, it's just a little bit hard to find. Well, and it's probably like Balenciaga, like yeah, and Rosie, it's a lot of when it's black, it's a lot of tool. And you fucking know Rosie she

Yeah, that's so true. She's totally gonna have to wear sneakers.

Okay, Wow, they could be glittery. No child fashion, you'll go to Nordstrum. I forgot which baby this was. This was years. This was like I was in high school or college. But I bought someone Bloomingdale's child section sail like a black chek Ralph Lauren child dress, and these people went nuts. They were they were like, I've never seen black for a child and I have remembered that like energy, so it is chic.

But no, and like again this is like sort of more of like one of those weddings that's like at a barn, and like we're all staying on the property. It's like it is I just I worry about a photo. We have a huge family. His fiance has a huge family. Like a photo of just all black and then two little girls like also in black, Like I was like they could be a little accent, you know, like color.

No, that is great. We also did have some drama in our messages. We have to address.

Yes, last week we talked a lot of shit about the breathalyzer test and I still do stand by that it's junk science and many people have to like written us to corroborate that portable breathalyzers.

I guess there's two kinds.

There's the kind that the cops carry breathalyzers, and then there's a kind that's like a stationary one that's at the police station. And I guess the stationary one at the police station. According to like a like a toxicologist who wrote us that one's very well calibrated, so that one is like admissible. But apparently in some states breathalyzers aren't even admissible because they're so they're so inaccurate.

Well.

Yeah, so one of the posts, the first one we got that you shared, was that like as a she was a lawyer, and as a lawyer, like, if you blow, you can at least fight it, Yeah, but if you don't blow, there's nothing to fight, and you might actually get in more trouble for not And then someone from a different state was like, actually, no, here, you shouldn't blow, and this and that, and so the states are wild, And I guess the conclusion is don't drink and drive, Like don't know for sure for sure.

But the thing is is like it's not even about drinking and driving, Like if you have one beer and then you drive, and you go take a faulty breathalyzer and then you have a dui that can like ruin your life in a lot of ways, you know what I mean? Like that like I don't know, that's I guess what I'm worried about is like you're not wasted, but maybe you've had one glass of wine or something and then you have this bad science. But it's totally

Losing your license if you refuse a breathalyser.

So I know that that is true in some states, but geez, anyway, hopefully no one's taking what we say as gospel. We are comedians. We are not law enforcement. We are not law professionals. I know, but we can't use that excuse anymore. The Ukrainian president is a comedian.

Yeah, that's true. We're important people, now, that's so true.

Yeah, he's really You texted me that you get Barbera vibes from him, and I really liked that.

I know.

I've been really going through it. It's really fucked and I think the like it's weird to watch a war on social media. Yeah, and the memificate like the hot girls with guns and like, you.

Know, him being hot and like and being this hero.

It was like so, and Russia's fucking up and it was like this optimistic, scary but and now it's not. And it's like I wish there wasn't that positivity upfront.

And yeah, I remember hearing all my.

Stuff like it's gonna be over really quickly because they fucked up, and it's not.

And now it's like not feeling that way. Yeah.

No, it seems very well planned, I would say, and I think they were willing to lose these young soldiers upfront that were tricked into going. And but so my family has Russian television and they have like seven Russian channels and it is state news. My dad like he's just a he's eighty four, he was born in nineteen thirty eight in the Soviet Union.

I don't know what to tell you.

Yeah, watching Russian television, but we're born in Adisa.

We're from Ukraine.

Like his family and him as a child escaped the Nazis from Ukraine to Central Asia. So it's like it's just very mixed up. And then like when I talk to my parents about it, they're like everyone hated them, like we left because we were Jews.

So to them, they're like, it's just very.

Complicated and a lot of feelings. But they do have this Russian television, and I don't want them to have it because it's lies and it's not real and I just can't deal with it. And so I just tweeted at Exfinity as a joke, and within twenty minutes all their Russian channels were gone.

Wait, yes, so I tweeted.

I'm sure I had nothing to do with it, but let me live my fantasy. So so last night I tweet at Exfinity going yo, a little funny. I go, hey, can you also cut off Russian channels in the US, more specifically Skochy my dad's television.

Please? Yeah?

And then someone responded on like how you could set parental control? So I go, great, texting my sister because I thought maybe my sister and my brother.

In law can like, you know, trick them.

And so I texted her the greenshot of the tweets and she texts back, going, Mom just called me in a panic.

All their channels are gone. That's why I don't even know what to say.

I don't either, so I'm sure they were already working on I mean, the sanctions. So then right before we started recording this, I got a text from my mom. We don't have any Russian TV channels. I didn't know who removed all programs. Dad is so upset. He didn't know what to do. We played backgammon yesterday till one thirty am, like they have because they're.

Lost without Russian television. I'm sure that what happened is Yeah, it's like sanctions. They're just cutting off Russian television.

Yeah, but like my mom's gonna and my dad got a notice for jury duty. I'm like, okay, I don't know what excuse.

He can't go.

He can barely, he can't. He's lost, lost without it. But I wrote, she doesn't understand what sanctions. But I wrote, the government shut it down. The world's doing sanctions on Russia. I'll call you later.

Oh my god.

But I love the timing of it, like Lie's is a Twitter wizard and can just make things happen.

It was immediate.

But I also have a hard time because I don't really want to talk to my parents, and this is making me realize what happened to them. I don't know, Yeah, in a fucked up way, like with the Holocaust statue being bombed, I was like, oh that, oh fuck, Like everything's just I don't want to retraumatize my parents in any way, so I don't I tried talking to them a little, and I don't know. They have a you know,

Like I don't. They do not talk about anything ever. Ever. That's so interesting.

Yeah, just they just like escaped it and they were like, it's in the rear view, we're not talking about it.

Yeah, And it's maybe the culture in some way I have I have no idea, but it's just watching a country be slaughtered like this slowly. Well, no one can do anything because of nuclear shit.

I don't know.

And then it's kind of when we call nurses brave where it's like you're brave, have fun.

Yeah, that's how it feels.

Like we're celebrating the bravery of the of the Ukrainian people and basically going like go march to your depths as you protect your country.

I don't know.

It's so fucked and the social media of its weird. And then it's like some every morning and every night reading everything and then.

And then we chat about regular It's like back and forth. It's sick. It's a little bit don't look up? Did you watch Don't Look Up?

On?

Dystopia? Really isn't for me?

Right, But I mean, but like it's similar because it's like they're trying to warn about something very serious happening, and it's like memes, jokes, talk show hosts like making jokes, you know what I mean. Like it's all just like is any information serious? Is anything being taken seriously?

Like what you know? Yeah, that's what it was.

I go, it's strange mess because then we were messaging about wordle. So I'm texting a friend last night about what's happening and like all the news and then I'm like, wait, what was.

Your third guest for the word ale? And it's like what is happening. Yeah, and it's a luxury to not know war, you know.

Yeah, but for sure it's Wait, can I ask a question about the television thing? Can your parents watch like Netflix with Russian like voiceover turned on?

If they could even? Do I pay for their Netflix? Did I set up? Then?

Don't?

Okay, of course I did. I set up there on my folders. I have folders for Sam and Rema. I mean I got them Amazon, I set them up. I bought them a Roku. I mean I did it. There's no that's not gonna happen. Oh my god, that's not gonna be possible for them, hopefully.

I just so they don't have to just play get Back Him until one am every day, Like let's get them in canto and Russian, you know what I mean, like something.

No.

I mean they used to watch HBO, but at once you retire and you get the Russia, you know, and you don't have to think and translate. It's kind of like it's hard to go back. I do feel bad for them. There are fun channels too, and that's what does suck. And there's like a music Russia loves, like a musical variety. Yeah, yeah, one person pretending to be

I mean, that's what also sucks.

It's like, of course we're all gonna hate Russian and fuck Russians, but it's the leader and the people in Russia are about to fucking starve to death to I mean, these boys, yes, risking their lives to protest, Like I mean, my sister came up with the one good point of view that I hadn't heard because I don't know, and she goes, well, don't repeat it. I go, I'm gonna repeat it everywhere. She goes, I'm not a professional. I go, it doesn't matter, none of us are. I'm like, we're

They weren't nice to her. Like my sister's like.

I feel the same way I feel watching any other conflict, and I do not feel connected in any way.

I'm like, she lived there for a decade. I did not.

I was a child, I was very little, and I go, I don't know why I feel how I feel right now. Maybe because your memories are like theoretical, like your connection is sort of theoretical, and hers is more like she has actual memories of it sucking, you know. Yeah, Like she didn't teach her kids Russian. She hates the language. I love the language when you talk to your mom. I think it sounds so pretty, I really do. I can't say the same for like German, no offense, German listeners.

But her friend is.

But I also I always like, I think I guess I took it for granted, where I was like, of course I'm gonna go back to is yes, yeah one day, Yeah, of course I'm gonna see this fucking stairs in the opera house and like fucking do it up, like just and then what's gonna happen? These people are gonna live and then the bell like also, none of this would be happening if Hillary Clinton won the election, I'll tell.

You that much. I love that a million people would not have.

Been dead from COVID this pool. Like to me, I it's maybe it's a dumb thing, but I just once in a while I'll think, like I wish I Hillary Clinton would have been a good president, even I know she's not perfect in any way.

Yeah of course, but yeah she would have. I think things would have been things would be different today.

For sure.

Oh but the thing of like what to do with war and like the impending nuclear war not let's say or like we're dead in an instant.

It's like do you save money for the war or do you party?

Great question, like I bought a concert ticket I couldn't really afford. You know, I'm just kind of but I'm living in I'm living in a trashy like I don't know what to do. But do you party and eat steaks or do you like save for when we're starving, Like I don't know.

Yeah, that's a great question. I don't.

I think that depends on your personality. I think I don't know if you're like a burn it all down or like, you know, let's get.

And then on top of all this, then the Ukrainians being racist to African and indiany, I know that's.

Been really tough too. Oh glad the world is so fucked. Yeah, I like have seen videos of them like not letting African immigrants like across the border.

It's fuck. It's fucked.

Yeah, Like with everything, you find time to still be racist. Mm hmm on a not positive. But today I did watch a video of one of the hottest men I've ever seen in my life with a British accent joining the like foreign forces for Ukraine and hasn't he doesn't even have a Ukrainian friend. His friend let him marine stuff and he's like tattoo, like truly the hottest man I've ever seen. And he's like whatever we got but in an accent. You know, I don't do accents. But

I just don't know it is weird because it is. It does.

It's like if are we watching a movie, like we're watching something unfold on social media, like, but it's not. It's very real, you know, So it is kind of it's it's fucking weird. Yeah, but do you want to talk about rape and murder to make it feel better? No?

No, no, we have I would like a positive note. And I just remember this. I get to go to a virtual Zoom Simpson's table.

Reading table read.

Yeah, I'm so surprised you haven't gone to a table read yet.

To be honest, No.

No one's really but Christine Nangel, who I'm obsessed with. She's like a genius writer. But I also love her impressions. She does like a Philly girl impression, and she did the impression she did a video of like pretending to be the like the owner of the Four Seasons landscaping. Yeah, and like talking to Rudy Julie. It's the fun it's so funny. And someone wrote like an insane tweet to

And I do have a Santa's Little Helper tattoo.

So I sent it to her being well some people like him, and she's like, do you want to do the table read to my episode? And I was like yeah, I mean, I wrote, oh my god, and like emotions and I heard they really do it. I mean I'll be like muted and hidden, but I heard when they do it, they really like do the voices and like really do it?

So really yeah, and then like post when when when they are doing them in person again, you'll probably go do one in person.

That's awesome. That's so fun.

Oh and I know we were saying about the war being serious, but my lil fres did have a funny meme. You know the video of the president and he goes, I am here the defense, like minister is here, this person's here. She wrote a caption that said, when you're facetiming to prove you're really at guys night, And I did like that.

I did like that you got we got a laugh, right, we got a laugh at some things.

We just need them to live. We need everyone to kill Putin like what Yeah, but we also sat around like I didn't pay attention to anything. We like take our safety for grant. I don't know what it is. But why am I bringing it back down?

Why I don't know. I don't know. No, no, no, no, it's up. It's up. It's up.

We're gonna have a great episode, and we're gonna get started right now. All right, everybody, let's get into Chasing Demons, Season nineteen, episode fourteen. This is the Peterstone era, very brief Peterstone era, and this is a very different opening of the show. We are in trial the minute we open, and Stone is cross examining Olivia about someone named doctor West. And Olivia is explaining that a ten year old boy named Sammy Price disclosed that doctor West performed oral sex

I hate this already so much.

The investigation led to fifteen patients being interviewed, two other boys coming forward saying that they had also had the same attack happened to them, and she said that essentially what happened was Wes had a playroom full of sports stuff, video games, toys, and that while the parents sat in the waiting room, Wes would bring the boys into this playroom,

Since the DA cleared me of child abuse charges.

So just to recap, in the season nineteen opener called Gone Fishing, Gone Fishing, Benson is being investigated for child abuse stemming from annoying Noah, sorry, I know that he is. We like him now, but also he was annoying because he stepped into traffic and his mom grabbed him and then he had a bruise, and he like didn't explain to people that his mom did it to help him

So Cassidy sidles up.

He's about to testify in the West case, and we find out that Stone only got this case from Barbara two weeks ago.

And then he all he's all.

Nice to see you Live without looking at her, which I feel like is very high school. That's like very much how a boy who likes you in high school would be like, uh, yeah, great seeing you, and then just like he won't make eye contact with her, And it's like, I don't know, Cassidy annoys me in this.

He's immature, but oh he is immature.

He does not handle his anger, his emotions or communicator.

I mean he is stunted. We find out why.

Yeah, but he is immature. Even remember when like she goes, oh, let's try a new place for dinner.

And his response was, what's up with the old one?

Like he is a he's not an evolved human.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, So we're about to see exactly what happens when you push Cassidy and he is on the stand and uh, he's an investigator for the d DA's office.

That's his role at this time.

And he states that doctor West threatened to kill Sammy and his whole family if he told an Under cross examination, West lawyer is like, you worked as a U undercover in narcotics, right, And he asks about Carissa Gibson And this is the whole Bart Ganzelle double part that we've had a few seasons earlier, and that is a sex worker who Cassidy had a sexual relationship with while he

Yeah, I was like in.

Another episode, so and the guy's just like and uh, what ended up happening to that sex worker, and Cassidy's like she was murdered and then and then he was like, and what about Heather Riggs another sex worker that accused you of rape? And essentially just his whole past is just being like blasted at him, and Cassidy's like, I was clear to these charges, Like, how about we talk

Really?

If this was I guess it's probably so Sammy didn't have to. But it seems like if you know that this guy has this crazy you.

Know, Yeah, but you said it already. He only had two weeks to prep for the trio. Yeah, so that could be something that could have been it too.

Yeah, And I don't like Stone.

Yeah, so I don't know you've made You've not made that a secret, that's for sure.

Yeah.

Then Wes slawyer shows pictures of him from when he

Would have gone on.

Then, in an even worse turn of events, doctor West gets bail. So this is like a full shit show. The parents of all the victims are in the courtroom. They're all visibly upset. Hector Ramos is another one of the victims. His dad is screaming like he's just gonna get away with what he did to my son, and Cassidy's just like saying sorry over and over and over again. And then it's the credit, so very intense courtroom centric

At each other. But also can Stone suspend Cassidy?

Yeah, because he's an investigator for the DA's office. Okay, so I think he can. So he's like, you're suspended. So it's like, Wow, You've really just like watched so much bad shit happened to Cassidy. It's like, now he has his job suspend. It he fucked up this trial. He has his job suspended. He has to see his ex girlfriend who he loves and she hates him. Like it's not a great day for Cassidy.

So Stone is.

Like, I can't believe I let Jack McCoy talk me into this job, and Live is like, yeah, why did you? And he goes, something came up after my father died and I didn't see it coming. And I don't know if he's talking about emotional or the fact that his like sister is ill. I don't really know what he's

Well, and this says a lot of dramatics, you know.

I feel like when we talk about in real life, I think we mentioned it where a lot of cases it's just trying to plead down, like you know your client's guilty, and it's kind of like, okay, he's a molestor let's try to get him forty or twenty five, right.

Yeah.

Yeah, So I wonder how often it happens in real life that kids are getting treated this way, but I bet often Yeah, I don't know. I wonder if you're a lawyer, let us know if this is SVW theatrics or people bullying children like Judge all habitually.

Is that happening.

Yeah, So now we are talking to Sammy Price's family and they're at a basketball court. Sammy's playing basketball with his older brother, Reggie, and they're like he's the older brother's being really cute and is like, hey, like Sammy, and Sammy just looks really like dejected. And Stone and Benson are trying to talk to his mom, who's played by Purnell Walker.

She's very talented the mom.

She's been in a ton of stuff, like sitting on a hill the Deuce. I knew I recognized her from something, but she has like a lot of credits and she's very good in this role. And they're explaining the new trial to her and she's like, no, no, he's just gonna go live with his dad in North Carolina. I gotta get him out of here. He gets bullied at school, and I'm starting to think maybe we never should have

An uber and she just kind.

Of walks out because he's like, guess what live. She's like, go home, Brian, and he's like, I am home, Like okay, So dramatically, he wants to just drink his problems away. So now they're talking to the mother of the final victim, Tommy, and Stone is talking to his mom at.

A Russian when she works another Tommy drink, Take a drink.

It is really wild.

I know we have a listener that I think is making a list of all the Tommies. Can you send that to us because it is really really like the new boss on the current episodes goes by Tommy like it's really nuts. So it's a lot of Tommy's So Tommy, can you hear me? She is upset that the mom is upset that Tommy has to go through all this again.

I thought you were going night be getting laid.

And if you guys will recall, intent was just a few episodes ago when he was definitely trying to bang Rollins at a motel in West Virginia and she opted for a stranger bartender instead. So we weren't quite at releasey levels at this point, and so they're at a crime scene. Obviously, they go inside and it's doctor West. He's been stabbed ten times with a thin knife, a single edge blade, and he's like just lying there in

We're a pro vigilante justice on this podcast.

So Rollin's and Creasy are like, oh, you want to take neighbors, I'll take this guy. And then they get confronted with this woman's like, or you could just let homicide take care of it. And this is Devin Holiday.

Deetive. She's a bitch. I don't like.

Yeah, Detective Devon Holiday played by a gorgeous actress named Kylie Bunbury, who is actually one of the leads in Big Sky, which I've mentioned before, is a show that I randomly watch, and she's one of the main characters. She grows on you in Big Sky because she's just as big of a bitch in Big Sky, but she grows on you here. It's like she's just a bitch. The whole episode pretty much. But she's got a point.

It's oh, it's all very harsh.

And then they walk away from her and Creasy goes, it's a little early in the morning for a stick up your ass.

I guess that's a burn. All the up your ass stuff.

It never resonates with me when someone's like we crawled up your ass, Like I just that those like little comebacks that never really there's other ways to be like you're being a bitch, you know.

I don't know. I never like, oh, this stick up her ass all that.

I don't know. There's something about it. This just doesn't do it for me. So if you've got better burns, please send them my way. And then Rollins gets a nine to one to one text from Olivia. So because this is very early in the morning, like it looks like the sun is kind of coming up as Rollins and Cariesy are arriving at that crime scene. So now Rollins is a lives apartment picking up Noah to take him to breakfast and school and lives like, I'll be in later. But there's no even fake excuse.

I don't think.

She doesn't even really say like, oh fuck, I forgot the cable guy is coming or anything, you know, Like she's just kind of like, take my kid to school and get the hell out of here. And then they leave, but you can see on Rolin's face that she's like, what the hell is going on here? And then Cassidy strolls in wearing these sweats. This is after Rollins has left with Noah, by the way, and Noah.

Does look cute here.

He's talking about how he likes blueberry pancakes and stuff. I'm liking Noah being a cutie here. And then Cassidy strolls in wearing these sweats, and he goes, I can't believe you kept these, and Live goes, I wear them to clean my toilet, and it's just that's a burn. I like, I do like that one. And then Live is like Live is livid. Basically, she's like, I have

Okay.

Oh, now now he's happy that she's Olivia Benson. Now all of a sudden, it's not a problem that she knows everything.

Right exactly, Like the booze has worn off, and he's like, fuck, the only person that can help me as a person I just made fun of and told to fuck off hours earlier, when I was like under a haze of Jaegermeister. So now we're at like some little diner and Rollin's and Noah are having like kind of a cutie little breakfast, and she's fully manipulating him for details about what's going

Oh why wasn't he allowed in the bathroom?

And then he's drawing these boots on the place mat and she's like, what are those and he's like they're boots from they were in the kitchen this morning, and Rolin's face is like done done, and then that's like we're off of on that shot of rollin, So she's clearly knows something's up and someone's at the apartment.

So now Cassidy is.

Telling Lib his whole version of the story, and he's like, I couldn't get West's smug look out of my mind, so I went there to tell him. I was watching him again, like dumb ass move after dumb ass move from Cassidy, like just so dumb, and uh, he goes and if he tried to intimidate these three kids like he did to the other victims, and Olivia's like.

Then what what would you fucking do? Kill him?

Like you're so so dumb, you're not allowed to go threaten a purp? Like what is this the first day of the academy that they teach us this?

Probably? And I do really like Olivia's hair.

She kind of has like curtain bangs, like they're like bangs that sort of separate, like there's a little theater show about to tappen on her forehead.

And so he.

Tells Olivia that he went to West's brownstone. The front door was open, he called out to West, no one responded. Then he got blitz attacked from behind, smacked, and he woke up on the floor covered in the doctor's blood. And this story is absolutely capital be bonkers, and Live

Like what's up?

And Live just looks at her kind of like and she's like, are you really gonna make me tap dance for this?

Like why are you making me work so hard?

And so Live closes the door and she's like they're cassidys and it's not what you think, like we did not get it on. She's like basically tells Rollin's the whole crazy story, and Rollin's is like, Olivia, please, girl, like you gotta get your head on, like this is not a good story. This does not seem right, and he's got to come in and Lives like he will, just not yet. And then they get into this big argument and Rollins is like, I kind of have Rollins's

Their relationship evolving and becoming closer and better. Yeah, because Rollins did fuck up a lot and you know, so I do like to see them have like girly energy together.

Yeah.

But then Live is like, for now, let's just work the case and Rollins is like cool, cool, cool, And if our boss finds out, like your fucked and I'm fucked, so thanks for putting me in this position. So it's like very tense with them. But yeah, they are pals, I think, and we know that they'll make it through that.

Wow.

And Rollins, where does she come off being like we might get in trouble. I'm like you straight up, like we're gambling illegally covering for your sister, Like she's done so much shit she can't yeah, like shit on anyone else. Everyone had her back, true, true, true, true.

So what Live tells the squad to gently like reach out to the families and just make sure that like nobody from any of the families had anything to do with this. So they're at Sammy's place and his mom is like super relieved that West is dead.

Her friend Granville is there changing a light.

Reggie and Sammy walk in as the mom is saying, well, like, basically, last night we went to we watched X Men till ten, and then we all went to bed, and so that's their alibi, and Reggie's like, hy, mom, kim Me and brogo ice skating. The mom pulls out this fat envelope of cash and gives them a couple twenties and then they're like, I don't know why. The detectives are like, oh, you're not allowed to have an envelope of cash lying around.

But also five K is not enough to not go back to court. You got to give more than that.

Well, yeah, if Wes actually but he's on bay, I wonder what the like if he paid someone to do it.

Someone's doing it.

He's doing it, and I don't I doubt he thinks he did anything wrong.

He's a molester.

Yeah, he's definitely paying. He's definitely paying some kind of messenger career. He's showing up at his old victims houses to slip cash under the doors.

But yeah, he.

Definitely doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. And I put it together that it was him giving the money. I think I just realized that, Yeah, no, he fully was trying to buy them off. And now Rollins is at Hector's father's workplace because remember how worked up he was in court, and she's like, so what's up, Like where were you last night?

And he's like, I.

Went on a walk and I don't, like, I don't really have much of an alibi.

I was just went for a walk to let off steam.

And she's like, what about your hand because his hand looks busted, and he's like, look around because he works in some kind of factories like this job is hazardous, like you know, I'm getting cut and bandages.

All the time.

So then Holiday walks in and is like, what the hell are you doing here? Like she shows up at the dad's workplace, and Rollins is like, we've worked with these families for two years. We're not just going to disappear because the case is over. And Holiday's being super snappy, and Rollin's just like, I know you're trying to prove something.

It would be.

Helpful if you could be a little bit less of a bitch about it. And she's like okay. Like Holiday doesn't really have any kind of comebacks except for a smug look on her face, and then she says, we're also looking for your boy Cassidy, So any idea where that dumbass is? And Rollins puts this like very fun, bitchy smile on her face and goes, I haven't seen him. So that same kind of like flirty Southern bell thing she does with guys to get stuff she kind of did to be a bitch here, and I kind.

Of liked that.

Yeah, no, I like that Amanda's giving it back to her. But now it is like, you do know where Cassidy is? And he was covered in blood. So yeah, like now all of a sudden, I'm on this bitch's side and yeah like that.

Because she does rub me the wrong way, right and it.

But it's also, yeah, it's like police covering for each other. This is stuff we don't usually like, yeah, you know. So at the precinct they're talking about all these different possibilities and they're like, well, let's bring in Hector Remos, like he has no alibi and he has a record, and then Stone walks in and is like, Holiday says,

Because no one was ever on the line for murder, I guess.

But he goes, if you think I killed West, go ahead, arrest me, and she goes, I would never.

Go against Live. Put that on a T shirt, and.

Rollins is like, I don't know why she trusts you, but if you give a fuck about her, you'll turn yourself in. So I do like this very charged interaction

So you can like advise him and tell him what to do.

Finn, come get him, take him to interrogation, and he tells Lvia to call Detective Holiday. So in interrogation with Detective Holiday, Cassidy is doing like his usual yell talking, like everything's very one out with Cassidy in this episode. He's just like scream talking and is like it's still like a sexy, raspy voice, you know, No, he definitely

Have done this.

And then Cassidy is talking to Holliday and is like, why would I kill this guy when I threatened him an open court in front of a dozen reporters. And then they had this back and forth where he's like, why wouldn't I have just shot him? And She's like, you know, we would have traced your gun. Like there's all this back and forth, and then she just is like I just think you're another cop killing an unarmed black man. And she doesn't really care about the pedophile

I kind of like him.

Well, I love him, and you know what movie he's from what Harry at the Spy.

He's like the door key Boy and Harry at the Spy.

Oh okay, says who was like one of the og friends that then turns against her.

But yeah, his face hasn't changed in decades. He's well, he's still into the spy way.

Yeah. So he's there with you know as always, like when there's this moment of like what's going to happen, usually Melinda walks in, someone walks in with like DNA or some kind of a it's gonna yeah, someone's gonna come in and blow the roof off the whole Joel dela Fente.

I mean, we know so many CSU two we do.

So he says that there are trace amounts of other DNA at the crime scene, and they're like, is it anyone in the system, And he's like, not unless you've got a database for SeaWorld. Okay, maybe I don't like him as much. And and essentially the DNA is from

It's not Glanville.

And then Live notices Reggie sitting on the couch playing with a fidget spinner. Everyone remember the fidget spinners from a few years ago, And this is truly one of the greatest leaps of all time. Like she just sees a fidget spinner and is like, huh, I wonder if that bloody washer Cassidy gave me, We'll fit into that fidget spinner. So she's like, can I see that for a second, And she notices that the little area of the fidget spinner is the exact same size as the

Now I'm glad the fidget spinner got a moment to shine.

Yeah this sure, Okay, it's gonna come and go with every other trend of little toys.

You know that happens, that becomes popular, but it will live on forever.

How have they never had. How have they never had a Tamagotchi. I would love to to see it be like, well, time of death must be two am because her Tomagatchi was dead by seven am because she didn't feed it, like I would love to see Tomagotchi folded into it.

That Maybe that's for my specscript.

I mean yeah, if warn Light doesn't hire you off of that alone, I don't know what's gonna happen.

Wait, should we write an episode and submit it?

I mean, not a bad idea, we know exactly how they go create it.

Let's write a VU episode. We should you.

I'm gonna take some casting liberties, bring some people in and out. Suddenly there's like a hardcore pornographic fucking scene with rollins and coreesy. People are like, Wow, something really happened on SVU. A turn, A real turn. She getting fisted, you know, but.

Oh my god, stay tuned for Lisa's episode Everybody, season twenty five. Okay, So, in the next scene, we see Stone popping that little ring right onto the fidget spinner while he's talking to someone about being a Mets fan.

Camera moves.

It's Reggie, the older brother, who was played by Brett Gray.

He's a real cutie and he really doesn't want to talk about baseball.

And Stone's like, you know, I used to play for the Cubs and then I got an injury and blah blah blah. My whole identity was baseball, and I blamed myself, but there was no one to blame. So he's trying to get this kid to open up and it works, and he's like, I was so mad. I didn't know to where to put my anger, kind of like with Sammy and doctor West. And Reggie's like, what happened to

He didn't tell anyone.

He says he didn't want people to think he was gay or that he liked it, and he didn't want his friends to find out. And he says that the abuse went on for a year and then doctor West trying to buy him off, like really set him off, Like putting that envelope under the door, like that set him off. But also the fact that the mom was going to send Sammy to North Carolina because no word about sending Reggie. And you've already seen just in the

Through the one way mirror.

He's basically doing this whole confession to the one way glass. So on the other side, his mom is watching him and she's like, how did I miss this? Like and she's so devastated. It's really really sad. But my feeling is in the real world, and I know it's a television show. But in the real world, if this kid had a lawyer, which he absolutely should have had a lawyer immediately, they would have nothing on him. There's like

Yeah, but if she gets a lawyer even after you now you got me thinking, because it's like he's underage and they were not interviewing him as a suspect.

The mom wouldn't have approved that.

So they're talking to a minor without a lawyer, without parental approval, without acknowledging that he's a suspect of the case. So I think the confession could be thrown out as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm liking this because I'm so worried for him. But you're right, the fidget spinner was chain of cust It's like, yes.

Yeah, it's just like that's the only physical evidence linking him unless they go in like if there's footage of the knife, sure, I bet he ditched the knife. We never find the knife again, we never talk about the knife again, and then it maybe they found footage of him, since they did have footage of what's his name, Cassidy, So but I think that kid could have kept his mouth shut and walked. But whatever, this is a TV show.

I would never do anything to hurt.

Noah or you, and then he goes, come on, you were the love of my life, and that like takes Live a back.

She's very shocked to hear.

That, and she's like, I don't really know what I'm supposed to do with this information right now. And he's like, you gotta admit you were never going to bear your soul to me.

Am I right?

And she goes, yeah, you're right, like I never was, So we were never going to work out basically, and then they hug it out and Live walks into this swankie bar and then she looks back to go to like, you know, get a little look back and see Cassidy one more time and he's gone.

And that's dick wolf Baby. Very good episode.

So yeah, a touching, sad episode, a lot of a lot of a big twist. I really didn't expect that, and I don't know anything about the crime it's based on. So after a few words from our sponsors, Lisa will take us on that journey.

Okay, welcome back.

So this is one of the worst cases I've ever researched. I think you guys will be not surprised slash surprised at how much oversight and how people just let shit happen for fucking decades.

So this is about Earl Bradley.

He is a former pediatrician from Delaware, and he's a convicted child rapist and some say he's the worst pedophile in American history. But of course the Gymnastics Association is trying to beat the record as fast as they can. But you know, I talked to her about this, like, this case is so fucked up, one of the worst things I've ever read. Impossible to find information about it.

That it broke out.

But the amount of victims in this case and how horrific this is and what this shows about a lot of law, I'm just shocked that I really had to dig and it's get ready, I guess, is what I'm saying. So he was indicted in twenty ten on four hundred and seventy one charges of molesting, raping, and exploiting one hundred and three child patients, but over fourteen hundred identified victims do exist.

Oh my god.

So yeah, so he wasn't charged for all of it, but a lot. And this is really hard and it's kind of like the priest situation where people trust their pediatricians instinctively and that helps kind of get away with abuse.

For as long as he did.

He was the chief of pediatrics at I hate It's be Baby, be Baby, the baby. It's like a funny name, and there's like a baby dressed as a bee.

Whatever. So, so he.

Was the chief of pediatrics at this medical center in Sussex County, Delaware, and then he opened his own practice called Babyes that's.

What it is.

And these babies were dressed as bees, but so it looked really cute. They had Volkswagen bugs with little decorations in the parking lot. It was like this boy like it looked like a real fun pediatric office background on him, just like what they say, kind of. He was a loner, very intelligent, which makes him more dangerous. He's evil and has never ever shown any remorse for any of his actions.

So he comes from a long line of creeps. I think.

First accusations go as far back as nineteen ninety five, when he was completing his residency, a mom walked in on him with his hand down her two year old's diaper, and she reported it to the police, but after a brief investigation there was not sufficient evidence in the case was dropped.

Okay, I'm not victim blaming in any way.

I'm just curious as to why you wouldn't be in the room with a two year.

Old like a ten year old.

I understand, if they're getting their physical and they're a boy, a mom would probably step out of the room maybe, but like a two year old, I'm in the room the whole time. My pediatricians never alone with my kids.

I'm just wondering.

So there's a lot of stuff. He actually did some of this in front of the parents as well.

Oh that's that's like the gymnastics guys too, apparently.

Yeah, and then also with the leaving alone. Obviously, I get that you would. So he basically his molesting he had like a room in the basement filled with prizes and toys and lollipops and all this fun stuff. So his thing was to be like, oh, why don't you go pay? Do you want to present?

Yeah? I gotcha, and you trust your pediatrician.

Yeah, And so he would take the children to this room and molest them while the parents were just outside.

Oh so that's kind of all of it.

The mom all like did call him a sick bastard, and then he accused her of extortion, and that was kind of his way out of it. But no one also did anything, so who cares. But he was accused of this abuse in Pennsylvania, so he just moved to Delaware.

Oh my god. So he had that accusation and he went, I'm out of here.

In nineteen ninety six, a nurse complained that Earl may have been inappropriately touching young female patients when taking your en samples. Again, nobody did anything, and then in nineteen ninety eight started this like big path of hundreds of victims.

Were they mostly female? Yes?

Yeah, it was one hundred and two female and one boy. Wow, but that's that's what the ones charged. So we don't know the like thousand plus, but the ones charged it was ninety nine percent of female.

So yeah, So in.

Nineteen eighty eight started like this big path with hundreds of victims because it was determined in an internal review that his techniques were within mainstream of current pediatric practices, and he continued to work at the hospital till two thousand and nine. One mother said that he digitally penetrated her daughter while she was in the room, and she was like, what are you doing? And he had no concern. He wasn't even nervous. He's like, oh, I'm just checking

The doctor about it.

The doctor left the room, came back and said he contacted the Children's Advocacy Center of Delaware and that he would not let the mother leave his office until she spoke with the center because someone could be sexually harming her daughter.

And it was him. I mean, that's like evil, evil, evil.

Yeah, he didn't allow her to hold her child and made the nurses watch the kid and threaten to call the police on the mother, So she was separated from an their hour from her child as she was on the phone with the center, and again nothing came of it, and nothing was resolved. One mother said, and I'm I'm saying all of them, so we understand what how much people fucking get away with and the idea of sufficient evidence or whatever the system is like fuck it, Like things need to change.

This is so fucked up.

So one mother said, she put her three year old kid in the car seat and the kid asked, why did doctor Bradley kiss my tongue? And they called the police that day, but prosecutors and police concluded there wasn't enough evidence to charge him even and there wasn't enough to get a search warrant, So that was that. Then she and her husband were advised to stay quiet because Bradley can sue them for slander.

So they were and.

He's picking kids that are like you know, three is like verbal. But it's not like you couldn't ever testify on the stand, you know, like yep.

Ugh, Yeah, nothing was done, no action, And like you said, not only on young children, but he was smart in the ways of that. He prayed on lower income families, mother homes, people that were more vulnerable. And he also did not charge lower income patients for office visits and asked that the bills be paid out of his own salary.

So he was this hero that was paying for poor people to come see him. Oh my god.

He was caught in twenty ten, like us, after years in the field and thousands of patients seen one hundred and three child patients, one hundred and two girls, one boy, and some as young as three months old. This was around thirteen, but like you said, the average age of abuse was three years old. So what happened was while parents paid their bills, he led infants to a hidden, video monitored room, violated these children while muzzling their shrieks

But it's also like, again, this guy probably would have gone away with it if he wasn't such a fucking sick fuck that needed to have it on video, you know what I mean, Like you the need to watch yourself do these like horrible crimes is like, oh my god.

Yeah, even though people said it, but it's like, so what evidence do you need? So the kid said this guy touched it.

Like.

Fine, then come up with a better system, like what, yeah, you know what I mean, Like, I just don't understand how it's like, oh well that's it, Like yeah, what what I just I don't understand that. So, like, I this is pretty fuck So victims were on the verge of blacking out turning blue. He forced like he would choke them and like hold them down to perform oral on him. Some like children and diapers are screaming in terror.

Oh this is like making me feel sick. Yeah.

So, and the lawyers and detectives were forced to watch all of this footage are still here the screen like they are haunted for life. And then five of the Sussex County forensic interviewers that were responsible for rehabing details with victims over several months all quit.

They all quit their job.

Yeah, Like I can barely hear you talk about this right now, Like I can't imagine like, yeah, staying on the job.

How is this not national news? I don't understand how.

Is I mean, Delaware did a lot because of Bo Biden and he will talk about him and a lot of legislation and shit changed. But the fact that this is not I mean, we know why, you know, it's the same thing over and over, Like we fucking do this every week and every week is just like victims not being believed and people getting away with this crime for so long, and we do talk about this a lot.

And do you be guilty?

Do you like, are you supposed to be suspicious of every doctor and anyone that's a teacher who works with children like I Which just how do you balance having an open mind in the world and living with an open heart and then knowing that these things go on?

Yeah, and you have to protect your children.

This motherfucker, even with the video evidence, pled not guilty like scum. This person is scum. He played the blame game. He's like you know, the police didn't do this. He criticized the warrant. He said that the warrant didn't actually like comprehend where the videos were, like all of this stuff, and he kept trying to appeal, appeal, appeal constantly, And then they did move the trial to a different place because so many people's children were affected. So it's not

Oh my god.

Yeah, because he just set off like the cycle of abuse for fourteen hundred children, Like, oh my god.

We couldn't even go to jail in the town because so many victims Like Okay, So he's at the Cheshire Correctional Institution in Connecticut, something that Kara is not going to be.

You know, I'm from Connecticut. This isn't the moment.

No, but there are very famous murders that happened in Cheshire, Connecticut that we will be covering. Oh really episode yes, yeah, because there's ans for you about it.

On September sixth, twenty twelve, the Supreme Court of Delaware firm the conviction. But this fucker just kept on appealing, like.

Who is defending him? Like, how is he getting a lawyer?

Well?

You know what's wild? And I thought about this, he had basic defenders. What are they called public defenders? Yeah?

Wow, because I'm sure like no one would do it, No one, you public defender.

Has to do it. Yeah, so that's what he said.

He goes, I was denied my choice of attorney and the ones that were provided to me were ineffective.

But it's like you're rich, so that yeah cares. That's how it works.

So according to the law firm that handled the civil cases, they settled for one hundred and twenty three million dollars for all the former victims of Earl, and not every victim got the same and they were like, how do you quantify it? But like the more extreme cases, people got around half a million dollars and then some was around one to two thousand, so it really varied, but one hundred and twenty three million is a lot of money.

Everywhere, they just they wanted to demolish it.

Delaware did make dramatic changes in how they investigate and punish doctors. So the case led to the General Assembly passing a series of laws known as the Bradley Bills, and bo Biden led this was like the lead prosecutor for all of this, Like he truly revolutionized what happened in Delaware and protective of children. I didn't know much about bo Biden outside of like his father being sad that his child is dead, but it was just nice to read about this person that I've heard his name about.

Because like if you if you listened to like any podcasts about this, like Doctor Death or like the second season of Doctor Death was like about this doctor who was just fully telling people they had cancer when they didn't, and like nurses were reporting him, like and they just weren't doing anything, you know, like this is Michigan, Like obviously it's probably state level unfortunately, but doctors can get away with so so much.

Well yeah, because the boards in the review people are other doctors. Yeah, and you'll hear some quotes that'll make you pretty pissed off. But it made it easier for the states to suspend the license of a doctor. And it also, which I find very important, increased finds imposed on people who fail to report suspicious conduct. This was inspired because they found out doctors not only suspected it, but would make jokes about it. It was a running

Yeah, all my doctors are women.

Because we covered the Honey episode where it's like this woman had evident and like fought so hard to get this doctor convicted. Then he's convicted also raping his stepdaughter.

Yeah, sorry, bro, I think it needs to be more strict. So James P.

Marvel Junior was an orthopedic surgeon, and he was a two time president of the State Medical Society, and he was a grandson of the Bebes co founder.

I think it's just bib Is it just bibe? Okay? Yeah, like Bebes kids. Okay, Bibess.

I I don't even know what it is.

I only know about it because of you. Yeah, baby's kids.

So Bibes co founder defended Bradley's record to the police and failed to investigate multiple allegations against the pediatricians inappropriate behavior. And it's impossible to like reach for comments, but we should investigate him.

The victims are dealing with long lasting effects.

Of course, you know, we talk a lot about the long lasting effects. Things can happen, Like you don't trust authority fear of intimacy, They get entangled in abusive relationships, hooked on drugs, alcohol, and suffer in a state of perpetual high alert. Patti Daily Lewis, who is the executive director of the Bo Biden Foundation, said that she had a man push her up against a wall and say how she was ruining a man's life in defense of the doctor.

And he said, you better have video, and they did.

So what now, dude, why are we so willing to defend rapists?

Yeah, it has to literally be video. It's like video or nothing.

Because it happens constantly, constantly, are we this is so stating to pretend this doesn't happen, Like I overly believe everything. Now I don't give a shit, Like, are you kidding me? Pushing the investigator up against a wall? Hmm, it's disgusting. Child advocate doctor Eli Neuberg. He is a professor at Harvard Medical School.

Hello Neil Bear connect.

He mentioned that there is a reluctance to act because if the purp is one of their colleagues and the reporting would ruin that man's life and career, so they would much sooner just not report it, even if it endangers children, no comment.

Remember the Hippocratic oath is first do no harm, Like you're doing harm by not reporting.

Yeah, I would really like to know what your mom feels about this case or thoughts are like inside information.

I will ask her about it. I'll ask him out if about it.

Like why don't all pediatricians learn about this in school? Like are people learning about this in medical school? And like what happens the signs? Like what the fuck?

Yeah?

The state now also requires physicians to undergo state and federal background checks and will revoke licenses of those who are convicted of felony sex offense, which seems pretty basic, but back like, that's what I meant.

He left from Pennsylvania to.

Delaware, and I found a few other cases of people just moving states. It's very connected, like the priests and the medical boards are all different states to states, so you can kind of just keep running around molesting people. The disciplinary process became more transparent as well. The hearings used to be held in like an executive session, and now they are public and complaints filed by the state.

They get different privileges. Yeah, doctors probably, you know, obviously not.

But doctors and pilots seem to have the same vibe to me, like God complexes, I can save everything, everyone needs me to be here like. They act like that, so I guess they get treated like that, and then all the nurses are doing all the work.

Yea truly patient care.

But nationwide it's STI really hard to judge the problems because doctors benefit from self regulating. It's a self regulating profession and all, and it's a secretive disciplinary process, so it's like all these doctors just deciding for each other if they are Britists or not. The twenty sixteen Atlanta Journal Constitution and Investigation found that the system shielded Bradley from at least eight accusations of sexual misconduct from nineteen

According to senior executives at the hospital.

But lol, like I don't believe it, but they do now require chaperones on any intimate exams on patients under the age of sixteen. And let's all remember, unfortunately sixty percent of children are abused by people that the family.

Trusts and knows.

So I don't know, again, how do you be suspicious constantly and vigilant and open hearted and what do you do? And uh yeah, obviously when you're like, I would never leave my kid, Like, if you're listening, I don't know how.

You leave your kid alone at a doctor's office of it or ever. Again, Yeah, I don't know. I would never.

But at the same time, there's a million parents that are like, I was vigilant, I never did anything, and this still happened to my kid, you know, like there's just.

Oh yeah, not blaming them.

I'm just saying no, no, I know it's precautions, and it's just like, yeah, I was a parent hearing this, I would never leave a doctor room again ever.

Yeah.

So yeah, I'm just like really upset that there's not more information about this.

I'm yeah, like I don't understand why this isn't like up with Manson like this is horrible.

Yeah, I think.

Sometimes honestly, there are cases like this that are just so horrific that it's like the huge like society like can't handle hearing about it.

And there's still me.

And remember the Larry Nasar case, Like people were mad that the judge was a bitch. Do you remember that, People were like that judge is being really judgy and bitchy, Like people were mad at the female judge.

For being not nice to Larry Nassar or.

Yeah, and just like the way everyone treated Simone Biles when she exited out of the Olympics and being so mad at her and you toughen it out and you play sports and be at champion, like totally negating and not acknowledging the years of systematic abuse these athletes have gone through. And how we just refuse to help stop the systems of abuse or symptoms of abuse, but also like disregard it and don't like it's just fucked, it's just fucked.

I don't know how we do this, to be honest, they really yeah, yeah, all right, well I.

Researched this all day and then I went to do shows and people are like, what did you do? All day and then I start talking about it, and then I see all their faces and I go, oh yeah, I can't just like tell people this. People are eating chicken tenders, dipping sauces, and then everyone's just upset.

But we do have a like see a lovely interview, such a good interview that's gonna cheer you right up.

This guest really like we left smiling, We left smiling, happy, a dream person.

And I think you guys are gonna love this.

Guest, like we're ready for you to go, you know, back up on the roller coaster after this interview, So see.

It in a sec.

We always have fun talking to our guests, but today we really had the best time talking to this actor.

He is very accomplished.

He's known for his role as Jamal on Netflix's On My Block, and you can hear his vocal stylings both as a singer and as a voice on the animated series Star Trek Prodigy. But you know him from today's episode as Reggie Price. Guys, we had the best time talking to Brett Gray.

Oh my gosh, Bett, thank.

You so much for being here doing tech stuff.

I love that you guys are obsessed with law and orders because me, you are too. You know, I don't know if I actually am or if everyone generally is and has just seen millions of episodes because they're always on yeh, but I like to think I'm I'm obsessed.

So when you got the part or even the audition, do you remember being super jazzed?

Are you kidding me?

Like?

I also feel like any actor like coming out of New York City Law and Order is like a staple. Like if you don't have a Law and Order episode, you have not made it as a like film or television actor yet in New York City?

Who are you most excited to me? Do you have any scoop? I guess we'll start right away.

So like really, of course, Marishka because like what like I'm sure everyone says that, but also Ice, I was really nervous. Yeah, everybody was super cool. Ice like taught me how to make crack in our kitchen, was like give me the ingredients of the lowdown and like telling me what to use and stuff like that, just while they were setting up the shot. And then uh, like Mariska played basketball with us.

And ate everyone to pieces he could.

He scored more than any other person on the crew that was playing with us, and like the younger brother character of mine, and at like a certain point, I just ended up just.

Like being like, forget it.

I'm not gonna be good like I'm just gonna sit down and watch her do it.

That's the most shocking thing we've heard.

But no one has ever told us anything about Marishka's athletic abilities.

I'm not like breaching an NDA or something or like, No, the risk of fans are going to come and like find me now.

They're happy to know this, so they love like that kind of info. Yeah, where are you though? Is it a concrete What's where are you?

This is my apartment and it's super like industrial.

It's like right outside the bridge in my city.

So I get like a total like riverview, but the ceiling is concrete.

Where are you in New York? Philly?

Philly?

Oh Philly?

Sorry, yes, I know you're from Philly. I didn't know if you were working.

Yes, another, this.

Is like my home base, got it?

Got it?

How did you make the decision for home base to be Philly versus you know the La New York Classic.

Well it's close to New York, but nowhere near the price of New York.

Yeah, so I really enjoy like taking my day trips to New York City and like not like my apartment here would probably be like eighteen million dollars a week in New York City. So it just made the most sense. And then I just can't do LA. I can't do it.

That's where we are. But I love LA. But I see some people don't like it. It's fine, I'm.

Trying to get rich so I can go back to New York.

It's great to be there while i'm working, Yeah, But then like to just live there as my life, I just can't.

There's something my body needs to be in motion.

It seems like you are young, You're killing it.

You're just really succeeding. What are the funnest moments you've had so far? We were scrolling your Instagram. You're like on the floor seats, You're on SVU, you're a series regular in a show. Tell us like the highlights of your life or since you've gotten so successful.

Well, I'm glad it looks like that, because I feel like my life is falling apart every day.

No, I'm just I guess I'm having the time of my life. I'm not sure yet. I guess like when I look back on this time, I'll be like, oh, I was having the time of my life, but yeah, I'm having on. It's really cool to like come from New York City and then end up like in film and TV, because in New York everyone just tells you like that's gonna be the hardest possible thing, like needling the Haysack thing, to like have any sort of film career. So that's super dope. And I love to travel, like,

Oh so it's great?

Oh yeah, well okay, wait, So speaking of your singing, So I was watching your music video and I was like, oh, this guy is giving me like very big usher vibes. And then I go on your Wikipedia and it's like he thinks his music is like Usher, and I was like, well, it's working. It's obviously working because I immediately thought about Usher.

So what's the story with your music? Has that always been a thing? Is that?

Like are you going to try to do that? Like concurrently with acting? Is one bigger than the other in your life or what's up with that?

I feel like it's one of those things where like, Okay, my first dream of what I've always been doing came true. Now like I'm trying to be like, Okay, I'm going to be selfish and see if I can do two things at the same time. And so, like I've always been in, I started off acting in like a performing arts training camp when I was like six seven, eight nine ten.

All the way uptil high school.

I would go every single summer after school and like on the weekends, and it would be like vocal dance, acting, we'd have like a movement class and all different types of electives, whether it be like tap or you know, African dance or martial arts, just anything like to do with your body and like a form of art that you're trying to perfect.

And so like I'd.

Always had like sort of a well a well rounded artistic training experience, so it doesn't necessarily feel like I have two things. It feels like I'm just trying to like fully encompass the whole world into what all I do.

But it's always been a.

Variety of all the arts in my life that have kept me sort of like affloat financially until now.

Yeah, yeah, just say yes to.

Say yes yes, Like now I want to say he's Regular, So you know, I don't have to necessarily have a music career, but if I can, yeah, why not?

You know?

So wait, okay, so let's talk about the series Regular. You're on the show on my Block with my friend Jess Garcia.

I literally one of the best friends I've ever had in my mind.

I love that she's so great.

I worked with her on something for a while before she was on on My Block, and she like that show is like killing it, Like it's so popular.

You guys are all like it's amazing.

And we interviewed Paula Garcas on our podcast like a few weeks ago.

She actually directed episode two of the last season.

Oh yeah.

She was telling us that she's been getting into the director killing the game. Yeah, so awesome. So, like, I mean, I don't know if I really have a question. I'm just kind of like on my block, what's up? Like you loving it?

It's dope. I loved it. It's over.

Unfortunately, Yeah, it's our season four. We just had season four like last October it was our final season, which

You know, having children.

Yeah, and like setting roots and like just being a part of the journey of everyone's life.

It feels really dope. Like I feel like I had a very lucky, sort of like one in a million experience.

Yeah, that's great.

Is there anything you learned on the SVU set since it was like early on in your career that you have taken with you to your future projects.

Yeah, Like, I guess, don't take things too seriously. Like observing Mariska of course, was one of the biggest reasons why I was excited about being on the show, like as opposed to also just watching the show. But there's something about her that's super comfortable and collaborative on set, and I feel like I've taken that with me now. I hope I'm not like annoying to directors and stuff, because I always like ask like.

Oh, what would you think about this or whatever? They say, No, it is what it is. But you know, I always try and like, you know, collaborate in some way.

And I feel like I learned that on Law and Order even before I started on my block. It just was the way she and she jokes in between unless the scene is serious, and like there's just like an old were all like ethic that she has on set that feels approachable but also professional, and so I just feel like that's how any like lead or number one

So I always take those types of things with me, Like.

When I get on a set, how I like to be to other people, what would I like the feeling to be so that it made me super comfortable. And I really felt like going on a show like that where there's millions of guests a season, it would be just sort of like you know, whenever.

You go and do your thing and then leave.

And it very much felt like I was a part of the family for the week that I was there. So I really appreciated that.

It's just like that's overwhelmingly what people say, and it's really cool to you. Yeah, like that everyone loved feels so comfortable there. Speaking of family, I like loved your relationship with your little brother in this episode. You guys like seem like you seemed like it was so close, Like I mean, truly you killed for your little brother. So I'm like, how was it working with that actor?

Like the little brother?

So dope?

So when I first met him, uh, we instantly clicked and I had no idea he was playing my little brother, and like we just met kind of at the audition, and I kind of think in my mind that that's kind of what they saw. Like someone in the waiting room was like, you know, those two are like playing or something.

It sort of like clicks. He had this game out, Super Smash Bros.

That I always used to play growing up, and I was like, I just leaned over and was like, I will kill you in this game.

And from then on it was sort of just like we were actually brothers.

And then his parent was there and like she was super dope and like I got to meet like some of his family and stuff, and we all did dinner before we shot.

So yeah, by the time we got there, I was already kind of like, you know.

Friends, do you remember where you ate?

I have no idea.

It was somewhere near Pier whatever that is twenty three.

We'll get back to SVU. But where shoot. People get a Philly cheese steak.

You're number one, honestly nowhere but Philly. That's number one.

If you go to Philly, you have to go like stay away from the tourist traps, like they're gonna tell you like pets and Gino's and gyms and Lorenzo's, but it's lies. Those are just the ones closest to like the stadium, and people just go there after the stadium because there's nothing else to do. But you have to go get like a Philly cheese stake from like a true mom and pop shop in Philly. You have to kind of go sometimes to somewhere that might be a little scary.

But that is where you're gonna get it anywhere, but the tourist traps.

Okay, all right, great, all right, good tips. That's good tips.

Yeah, your interaction your brother was amazing. Also your interaction. Did you have to learn how to fidget spin naturally? And was a fidget spinner a part of your day to day life?

I had to learn how to fidget spin. I actually had no idea what it even was or what it was for. And now I guess I kind of know. It's just one of those anxious things that people do because why not. But totally was introduced to that that day and never have used it again.

Yeah, but you got got from a fidget spinner, you.

Know, got got from a fidget spinner. It was a nice one too. It was like heavy gold. These kids are on it.

Did you ever think what happened to your character after?

I hope he got a light sentence or off. I bet he would have. Do you think about that?

I feel like he's one of those people who like didn't get a light light sentence and like is in jail for the rest of his life, and like now he has like tattoos, corn rose and straight back braids and like you know, stick marks from being like stabbed with toothbrushes and ship and just like.

But his brother needs him.

He didn't know.

I do feel like he has like high levels of respect because of what happened.

And I feel like maybe there was some connective tissue.

To some other inmates there like that know sort of what he did and would never say it, but like respect him because they knew that whatever. But he definitely has hell tattoos and straight back graides and he wraps at this point and he's really buff.

Nice.

You really spoke like a true sv fan, because the episodes, do you there's some haunting heart.

Fuck.

Do you have any that stick out in your mind that you watch all the time or when it's on you're like, oh, hell yeah.

This one.

I've seen so many of them that I was absolutely devastated by that.

Like I can even.

I can't even myself is when like the things that really get me, or when stuff happens to Marishka like in her life on the show, and.

What doesn't happen to her. I mean, everything happened to that woman.

Happened.

But no, I'm gonna like definitely shameless plug and say my episode because that was to me super heartbreaking. Like yeah, and Pernelle Walker, the woman who played my mother, her performance just like learning of this all and understanding was just like it's so hard for me to watch.

But your confession was really really like heartbreak, Like how did you gear up for that scene? Like you had to like fully just like with I think Philip Winchester, right, is that the guys the yeah, the actor that you were with, like so.

And you had to do it in front of a mirror looking at yourself crying, which see it was that hard.

Oh no, that's not actually true.

So what happened was so first off, this was my first day on set, so this scene how I met everyone.

So I actually it was lucky that it was like.

That because I was so nervous that I was very prepared and so like it was my first day and I really wanted to do a good job. So I think if it had been like day three and I've been comfortable, I wouldn't have been able to like tap

I don't know how that works at all. It was really really stressful.

Well you killed it, thank you.

And Maria actually said she's like, it's Monday morning and it's the first scene.

Like, who are you?

You're good?

I was like, oh, thank you. I hope you're not just being nice, but even if you are, I need that.

And what is what's next?

Okay, I'm on a new show. It's on a very very very popular streaming platform and it's an original series, and I don't think I can say what it is, but it should be announced like within the next month or so.

Amazing.

The series regular again, so starting a new journey. And the character is kind of like kind of similar to what it wasn't on my block, but like a little older, a little bit more mature. He's like kind of the like he's the teenager of the group that like drives the car.

So there's that like freedom sort of feeling to him and stuff like that. So I'm super excited.

It's all people of color involved and like, so I'm keeping that connective tissue with like sort of the type of I want to have.

So I'm excited. And then music, there's so much new music coming right now.

I'm working with some like crazy incredible people that like I kind of never would have expected that.

I don't really know if I can say that either, but.

I love it. Keep it all a mystery, keep it all.

I have worked with like super incredible, Like when I say legendary artists, the artists I will say I just like so I'm super like thankful just like sponging up all these amaz experiences.

And if you were to come back to SVU, what kind of character would you like to come back?

I want like a three episode arc and this time I want to play like, you know, like a young cop who knows a bunch of the kids in the neighborhood.

Yeah, like maybe a U see like undercover.

Yeah, And I would love to like help a kid cover something up because I believe in him or something, and then I'm in it too, and then end up back into.

Oh my god, that's a great idea. Great, these are great pictures.

I love it. I love it. And favorite craft service snack.

Just in case no one has ever said this before. The craft services at Law and Order. It is a full almost like warehouse of just all different types of food and snacks, and there's like a live egg bar and salad bar and they will cook you like meat in front of your face. It's like ridiculous, wow, But my favorite crafty snack. I say all of that to say all of those options are available to me, and I still will do frosted flakes and some orange juice just to take back to my trailer for no reason.

Yeah, I love frosted flakes.

You can eat them with milk, you can eat them without without milk.

It's a top five cereal and people know it.

Yeah, there's like a gift of iced tea eating cereal. Have you ever seen it? He's like going like this.

Well, and I did get a retweet post by him. It was exciting. I was like, what's in the bowl ice? And he wrote, you know that's the serial dance. And I celebrated that that was a big day.

Well, okay, wait, speaking of social media, can we talk about your you have you have like four million followers on TikTok or something.

What are you doing on there? What's bringing them all in? What are you doing?

I saw you doing a handstand on your Instagram with a joint in your mouth.

That was fun? Is that what? Oh?

That was my trainer?

But everyone you were upside down. I couldn't see and I wish that was.

Me, Like his back looks crazy in that. So I've been like just claiming it as my own.

Oh okay, well I didn't see the face.

If I could do a handstand with a joint in my mouth, that's all you would see me post postal media. But unfortunately, no, that wasn't me. But I thought it was amazing and had to claim it.

I like, your trainer is kind of a stoner too. That's nice he is.

And why you know it is what it is? You guys are in la.

Know I O name.

Just got Yeah.

I mean I love Brett Gray. He's gonna be a star, guys. I mean he's already a star, but like I think he's on the rise.

Like keep your yeah, you heard it here.

First, he has the right attitude, you know, he like is killing it but doesn't think he is, but is still happy and fulfilled. Yeah, that's like the perfect little then diagram of creativity.

Totally such a cutie and so fun and cool.

What wasn't fun and cool was today's episode?

I mean, oh, yeah, this is probably the most horrific. Like listening to it, I've always mad at myself for being so graphic, but I.

Don't know, No, it was truly one of the most horrible like crimes that we've ever covered, and I think it's important that we covered it because you said that it was so hard to find information, and that's wild to me, like that this guy is not more of a not household name, but more of a name, because when you talk about people like this, then people are more like aware and on alert that this kind of stuff happens, you know, And it's just sough.

It's such a horrible, horrible, well, and it begs the question, if like this isn't a huge international or national news story, what else what other horrific you know, hundreds of people victims are also being hidden. That's like what all sparks me too. But it's also now every time I passed woods, I go how many bodies are in there? I know, Oh, if I'm in a name of how many who's trapped in a base?

I see a water tank?

A water tank, I'm like, oh God, there's a body in there.

Like you know, I'm looking. I'm looking for bodies, I know.

And last night my friend was like, well, watch something fun before bed, and I was like, yeah, you're right, And then I was like, I have to read about the war.

I don't. I don't think so.

I know you're vacillating between war and your murder podcast.

It's a lot going on for you right now. I think you need to watch in Canto. I do, but let me watch it with a kid. Let me.

I gotta watch it with one of the kids, because I don't know if I'll sit down and watch in Canto alone.

Yeah. Rosie's hyped for it right now, but I want to know.

But you know this, Do we talk about this on the potterity that like Disney didn't make any muscle Girl toys? Yeah, because they thought no one would like her, and then all the kids want the muscle Girl.

When I tell you that today already. Rosie has made me play her song six times. She doesn't like, we don't talk about Bruno. She goes, I don't like this. Put the pressure song back on. It's the only one she likes. And what I heard was that they didn't want to make that character have muscles. They wanted her to just be skinny and like freakishly strong, and they fought for her to like be muscly and big, and I it's so funny, like so many kids, she is the best character.

I think, well yeah, and it's like, yeah, Disney kids don't have your standards on them yet. Yeah, like their children and their babies, and so everyone just thought, I guess they would like the young, fun princess or whoever in canto is.

Which, of course our friend No, our friend's daughter loves the perfect one because that's how she is. She likes perfect shit. Rosie likes the strong one because that's who Rosy is. She's into like crazy people that can throw donkeys in the air, you know, like that's it's funny. But anyway, we're this is not an encanto po.

No, but Disney now has to like it's like on bat like scrambling to make.

Luisa toys be Yeah, they's good.

Well, because there was a big moment in the WWE, I would say, like four or five years ago where it used to be like the Diva Belt and it was a butterfly and they would take hot muscle model girls and like make them into wrestlers, but they were never that good, and it just like that's when people would go to the bathroom or jerk off type vibes. And then like five years ago, they switched it. It's

Yeah, there's other things, especially in Encanto.

Yeah, I let the women wrestle. It's just let Yeah, she's strong, give her muscles. Yeah, And I love that little I don't know if it's this movie, but I love there's like a photo of circulating on the internet and it's a little black child with an afro. In the cartoon is a black boy with an Afro and he's like so cute, looks just like the cartoon, and.

It's like, oh, that's so cute.

Back to people children, I mean, just like whatever.

I mean, I think also what we learned from this, I don't know what we learned from Olivia constantly forgiving Cassidy's bad behavior.

I mean that Dick is good, you let some things fly.

Yeah yeah, But I mean it's like, you know, the episode's a lot about inherited trauma. That's honestly, that's what Encanto's about. And Kanto's about inherited family trauma and having to break down the walls of like, you know, all this trauma that you've built up and build something new.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I gotta watch and Canto and the Salt Lake City Reunion.

I mean, oh yeah, because my.

Fun show lately has been fucking Jersey Housewives, which is no picnic. It's like the jail years now. I'm watching families cry and get separated, but they deserved at their criminals. I do not feel bad for Teresa. Yeah, but it is like still families fighting and like struggling with It's yeah, and then I want to do Euphoria so I could be with the culture same. I'm about to start You for It, which isn't a good time either. I don't know what happy show to watch.

I know it's like all the stuff. That's the thing.

I think that's what's been keeping me from starting You for It is just everyone's like it's good, but it's dark as fun and it's like, okay, we have a lot of darkness going on. But yeah, I'm gonna watch it. I'm I can't wait to start.

Fashion Star studded.

Yesterday something was trending that it was like the behind the scenes of the makeup and what it meant for the care and I was like, oh my god, yeah, watch this show.

I also kind of like that it's giving like like it's giving older actors a big jump to like Martha Kelly's in it, who I love from stand up also Alana you.

Bo Alana, I've worked with her? Oh you have?

I didn an an unpicked up pilot with her.

Oh I was I mean legally Blonde obviously, Yes, she was the funniest girl in Legally Blonde. She's one of the friends. She's the brunette friend, right.

Yeah, And I always when I watch that, I go what happened to these two women? Like those two women are part of the funniest part of a very classic movie. And I just know I didn't know what happens to them? But she actually has had like a very prolific career. Has she been an SVU? We should try to find out.

No, I like know, I like that.

Euphoria is like also springboarding, some adults back into like not adults, like the twenty two year olds are adults too, but you know what I mean older like people that are older.

And No, it seems like a cool show with amazing acting and stories and everyone is shocked. Anything that brings people together, it's exciting. Yeah, I was on the Yellow Jackets train. Not so much as Succession but or Game of Thrones, but anything that brings people together week by week discussion.

It's fun because like we've talked about it. There's so much fractured.

Television is a fractured landscape, and it's kind of nice when there's one thing that we can all be like did you see that, and like we can all talk about it a little.

Bit, you know, oh, I know, we're not talking about that episode. Whatever, guys. So I after the super Bowl downloaded all these super Bowl playlists because I loved the halftime show and I had never listened to Kendrick Lamar. You know, I'm a female vocal pop girl, and I loved Kendrick Lamar in the mix. I was like, this is so good. And then I'm at the comedy store and I'm standing outside and Bitch Don't Kill My Vibe came on and I was like, oh my god, I just heard this song last week.

I love it.

And like four people turned around and went, what do you mean last week? And I went, well, I just heard it on the playlist and they're like, this was the biggest song in the country three years ago. Yeah, They're like everyone, They're like, you've never heard Bitch Don't Go.

I'm like, no, but I relate and I love it. Yeah, Like they couldn't believe it. But then I mentioned Casey Musgraves.

They had no idea who that was, and I go, she's at Staples Center, Like, yeah, we truly don't know any.

Like I just couldn't believe they didn't know that.

Or when people don't know Olivia Rodrigo, I'm like, should the number one?

Mind? No, it's just like like music is the same, it's fracture. It's like just splintered, you know. Like but yeah, Kendrick, if you were I was working out at a CrossFit gym three four years ago, you're gonna know Kendrick like they were playing him NonStop.

But also with this, don't break the rules, don't yell in court, don't cosmis trials, don't go to pedophiles homes, don't get covered in blood.

I mean, although we did say we love vigilante justice, don't really do a vigilante justice.

I mean probably like don't don't really do it, and don't talk to cops without a lawyer.

Yeah, baby, Brett Gay's character spilling all the beans, and you made such good connections that they had actually nothing to hold him.

Yeah.

Yeah, like a fisher from a guy, like you know, a washer from a guy's shoe. Who was this another suspect not holding up in court? Okay, let's get into this week's what would Sister Peg Do? This is our weekly segment where we give you guys a resource, a link, a book, an organization to check out maybe donate to.

Like to both of my children? How did I not see this?

And this woman named Rosalia Rivera has these consent parenting workshops and she as an instagram called Consent Parenting, and

Yeah, I was.

When I was doing what with sister Pegs, I was like, oh wait, this thing I follow is like perfect for this because it's like, you know, like we could do another child abuse like we you know, we have a lot of child abuse like resources once it's happened. But this is like a preemptive like let's learn all the resources ahead of time before something.

Yeah, and it's like, also, just believe your kid, like that's something, yes, of course, but that's not what this is.

And this is really good.

Yeah, Like I've talked about this before the episode of this is actually happening about this incest survivor how her anxiety and like her trauma came out in perfectionism and being the best student ever and so no one thought that was bad because everyone loves a good student and so, but that was signs of like OCD and all these things coming up. So there are so many signs that parents should be aware of. And this is definitely not

How do I move the tab?

It's called cheat sheets excel in sheets like a friend posted it thinking she was a loser, and I go, I need this, I need this.

The internet wins again, So lots of resources there on the Internet.

Hopefully all of your children are safe, and next week we will be doing a classic episode perfect season four, episode twenty four. We cannot wait. Hulu Peacock Podcast. All the hits. Go to your library, get those VPN sticks charged, and yeah, we'll see you next week.

We're so lucky. We love you guys. Thanks myye. That's Messed Up is an exactly right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us, or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email at thots Messed Up Pod at gmail dot com.

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As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our producer Analise Nelson and to our mixing engineer Ryo boun Anti Henry Kaperski for our theme song.

And to Carly Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgareff, Daniel Kramer, and everyone at Exactly Right Media.

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