Charisma w/ Jeff Kober

Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on. These are our stories, done done.

Hello, Welcome to That's Messed Up an SVU podcast.

My name is Lisa, Hello, my name is Kara. Hello.

And every week we recap an episode of Law and Order SVU. We tell you the true crime that it was based on, and then we talk to someone from the episode. And today's no different. We've got somebody great and Lisa, Now we just chatterrow, what's up with you?

Yeah?

What if one day we're like in today's guests not that good, but we couldn't find anyone better. So enjoy this dick hole. I have a question for you and the listeners. I don't know what's up. So my friend's

Really nice of you.

And then that was that, and then it just became dead silence for like two minutes, and then we picked back up and we ended on a good note. But I just don't understand what all I said was do you love to paint? And I don't know what I did to cause such because then when we left, I go, that was weird, right, and he goes, that was I don't know what was going on. She fully shut down, like, I don't understand why I was so I don't know why I was inappropriate, but I'm obviously in my head about it.

He said that maybe like she.

Doesn't have that much of personal conversations like that's not personal. She said she bought paint. I asked if she loves the paint. We were me, our friend Michael, and the employee. We were all just small chatting.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a tiny neighbor not a tiny neighborhood.

But they're no, I always chat to the people in that store.

Yeah, I'm there all that's there's only like five stores next to my house and that's where everything comes from now. So yeah, the employee just fully shut down and became so weird, and I just like didn't know if I did something wrong.

I don't think you did anything wrong.

I feel like that's so bizarre.

Yeah, Michael was like, you know, you shut down and got very bashful. I go, yeah, because I didn't know what I did. I started like looking at my shoes.

I was like, okay, it's not like you. Yeah, it's not like you were like, oh you do threesomes? Like yeah, it wasn't like a full that's so that's really high.

But it was like, what have I done? It was weird.

I wonder if you said it like you said it genuinely, but maybe she read it as sarcastic in a weird way like, oh do you love to paint?

Oh?

You do?

Like maybe you know what I mean? Like what if she read it that way, like completely erroneously. I'm sure you weren't doing that, but like and then she was like, okay, bitch, I was just trying to tell you that that's where I buy paint, Like I don't know, That's the only thing I can think of that.

I just needed something that it wasn't like me being the worst social person in the world. I was like, what have I done at my favorite store? But yeah, maybe she's thought it was disingenuous.

I just try not to.

I don't like asking me like what do you do for money or for a living? Like I like the idea of not having a person be defined by their job type of thing, And so I didn't want to be like, oh, you're trying to paint or like, yeah, what do you pay? Like I didn't want so either. Thought the way to talk about painting in a positive way was like, oh, you enjoy painting? Yeah, And she was like and then for two minutes we sat in silence, but then she said, no, it's a.

Nice question, it's not weird.

I'm like, the why have you ruined my mental stability now for days.

Maybe you were making her really.

Like look inward and be like, I do like to paint, and instead I'm just packing up your chochkeys for your friend's birthday at this retail job, and I just want to paint, you know.

Yeah they were chochkeys. That's funny. Well you know what I mean, so much choch keys for her birthday?

Oh are you forty? Here's forty choch keys. Oh that's like for my sixteenth birthday. My mom got me sixteen gift certificate and I like loved it.

Yeah, And I love that for you, and I think it's a great idea and I just love buying gifts. But then you know when you go to buy someone at present and then you spend more money on yourself at the store.

I did that too, you Yeah, yeah.

That store is dangerous for that for sure, because I remember we went there to buy a friend a birthday present and you were trying on clothes.

But the clothes are never my style.

I will never be a girl wearing clogs and like a flufy cotton linen dress that's in all way.

But I try every time I'm in.

There, I'm like I will wear a pillowy onesie and these fucking clogs from Sweden.

But what else is going on? Well, you have you have an insane story. I have an insane story.

I really want to tell you on the podcast because I just feel like our listeners would be into this.

Well I've heard it now three times and every time it gets more insane, not.

Like it doesn't, it doesn't have more.

It becomes more like whoa the earth, like the universe is nuts?

Yeah, so okay, so let me tell you guys what happened. So I don't know some of you may have noticed. A couple of weeks ago, I guest hosted My Favorite Murder and this I get this DM the day that that comes out from this guy who's like, hey, this is crazy, but I just heard you on My Favorite Murder.

Was murdered as part of it.

I had no idea, and I knew this woman for years, still have her phone number. I don't think there's a way I can bring it up.

Now, but and that you found out through a letter that arrived the day this man listened to your guest host episode of a podcast.

It's so insane, isn't it.

It's just magical, And I feel bad for people who don't see the magic in wonder and coincidences of the world. Obviously it's fucked up to call this like murder a magic thing, but yeah, to be connected in these stories and how we all are bound together as pretty.

Beautiful, really fully informs to me how Sandra was. I mean, like the way she was in, like her life, Like she's a lifelong Angelino probably who had this like mother who was drug addicted and murdered, and like it's just wild to me, like the whole thing. Oh, I wish, I wish there was a way I could have spoken to her about it at the time, because actually I think that conversation would have been very unomfortable because she's very intense.

But maybe we could have smoked weed and had some fun. Who knows. Do you think you're gonna ever hang out with this neighbor? You know what?

I literally think he seems really cool and cute and gay. So I was like, next time I go to West Hollywood to like watch drag Race, I might just message him and be like, want to meet up and talk about.

Sandra during commercial?

Maybe we could do the worst thing and try to hook up this random gay man with your high school friend friend and be like, well, we know two gays in West Hollywood.

Yeah, maybe you like each other.

Well, this guy is Jed's type, Okay, so maybe I will maybe I will set them up.

I don't even know if this guy, this guy could have a husband for.

All I know, Like, I mean, I have no idea. We can assume it might be open.

No, anyway, I know I took up a lot of Today's than that is amazing.

I mean I took up I took up ten minutes with a curb your enthusiasm boring story. So I think a serendipitous murder connection is better than me being like, am I a free? Am I a social freak? What am I doing wrong? But I yeah, she became so uncomfortable.

But hey, I love your curb moments. Should we jump into today's app? What do you think?

Yeah, it's a real laugh riot a barn Burner laughs a minute, just like a party episode of SVU.

They actually all go to Cancun.

It's like, I don't know why we'd waited so long to do the Cancun.

Yeah, it's it is weird. All inclusive resort. Oh my god.

I hope this podcast becomes so popular we can do an all inclusive resort party.

Oh my show festival. A cruise.

You guys, tell your friends we need to do a that's messed up cruise. I would never go on a cruise. I'm sorry. I'm anti cruise but I would go on a that was just people that like SVU.

Why are you.

Dow, Why are you demoting it? We both don't like cruises. We don't like what they do for the environment. I bring up doing an all inclusive resort and you go, no, let's do the thing we both hate.

Oh oh sorry.

The only reason I said it is because because different shows and podcasts do cruises.

Yeah, and we're gonna do it at a resort.

You're right, you're right, We're gonna break them old. You're right, you're right, Lisa, I'm a fucking follower. I was just like, well, we have to do the thing that other people have done. You're right, We're doing a fucking all inclusive you gotta fly there and then you're part of the magic and we all just party in where we go in kN Kun to Cancun.

Yeah.

So yeah, what isn't there like a saying like see you in Italy or something?

No?

Is that not the thang you cheers and say something like see you in Italy?

Is that not a saying like a cheers you do like when somebody will see you on the flip side, whatever, We'll see you guys in Mexico.

If we've become popular.

Enough, I'm raising a glass and saying, see you all in Mexico.

Let's talk charisma.

You sickos asked for it and we are delivering It. Is season six, episode seven, one of the scariest episodes.

Let's get into it.

We open on an emergency room where Benson and a doctor are engaging in a classic walk and talk and Benson has sort of a short, short, mid length. Bob, Lisa, what would you say? It's like very two thousand and four. If you can pull off short hair in two thousand and four, it's very like politician v. Hillary Clinton to me. But this doctor is famous Ali Reza. Yeah, yeah, I know I've worked with him.

I don't know where, but he wrote on SNL and Inside Amy Shuter, like he has all these comedy credits.

But I feel like I've worked with him. Okay, well, here's who he is. I was about to say.

The side note is the guy playing the doctor is Bill as Ali Raza, who's been on a handful of episodes of S you as this doctor. But if you dig a bit deeper because you recognize him, which I did, his full name is Ali Raisa Paranakian and he is the founder of the Pit, the People's Improv.

Theater in New York. Lol.

Okay, So if you've ever walked into the Pit, you know that the pit is covered in artistic renderings of Ali Paranakian. Like he literally decorated his own theater with just photos of himself and paintings of himself. So that's he was originally, I believe, like the lore of New York comedy is that he was part like he was in with the UC before and then he like ren and did his own thing, and that's why the People's Improv Theater aka the Pit came about. We spoke to

Done done.

She is going to be in the hospital for ten weeks until the baby is born, probably because of her age and because she's had some bleeding, and her name is Melanie. Olivia goes to talk to her and she kind of asked her about her first baby, and she says that first baby died. My mom says he's with God now, So now we know that she has a mom, and she says she's not supposed to tell anyone where her mom is.

But then Olivia classic Benson.

Really relates to her and says, if I was your mom, I'd want to be here with you.

And so the girl writes down the address, and she's cute.

This girl's like a little redhead, freckle face, like very cute, twelve and a half year old girl. And she tells Olivia that the baby's father is named Abraham. This is not a fellow sixth grader. She says, he's my husband. So we're already getting some ideas that this is not a great situation. Olivia shows up at a brownstone, ostensibly the address that Melanie has given her with a couple of unis and they knock on the door. This adorable

Any thoughts on the tattoo, Lisa.

Yeah, snakes are in no, but they're scary to me. And I get how they're pretty tattoos, but snakes scare me.

And maybe I'll get one. I don't know. Well, we do get a reference to it later, but yeah, no thoughts.

But usually if you decide to get hand tattoos or tattoos that are that visible, you are committing to a life without like conventional rules. You're not gonna work at a bank, you're not gonna have a job like Most Steven tattoo shops are hesitant to give people like hand or neck tattoos that aren't already fully covered because it does dramatically change your life.

So we know that this guy is off the grid for sure. I was thinking for you, though not a snake, but in the snake family. Do you have any feelings towards Lowlyworm from the Richard Scary books.

He's very cute.

I have a toy of him in an apple car with wheels, so I do.

I am a fan and I have It's almost as if I know you. Okay, wait, did you know I had the toy? No, not at all.

No.

I think about getting him tattooed all the time.

I literally thought about it because somebody just gave Rosia Richard Scary book and I was like, oh, I forgot about this little guy.

Wow.

He's always in my heart. He's always on your mind. Okay.

So now at the top of act one, Stabler's on the scene. Olivia is like fully out of breath, giving him the full rundown. Like I don't know if she ran around the block before she did this scene with him, but she's like, okay, here's the story, Like she's giving him the whole rundown.

Well, and I think she has a spidy sense of like shit ain't good.

Yeah, this is and there's all these kids in the house. Yes, the house is listed as being owned by Abraham o Fion. He's not responding to hostage negotiators. There's no phone service, there's no electricity in that house for eight years. Also not a great sign. So as they're strategizing for how to get into the house with like the it's not a swat team, but it's like the emergency response team,

Okay.

So as Benson and Stablers start running towards the building, officers Erminio who's played by John Ortiz, who's an actor you've seen in many, many, many things.

Everything.

Yeah, like he is his IMDb blew me out of the water, like he's done so much. He staggers out of the building saying that the purpose is gone, and he goes they're dead.

They're all dead.

So here you go, guys, this is the episode you wanted. Just kidding, we kind of did too, but I mean it's this episode's not fun for a lot of reasons. So they go into the house. It's now We've got Finn and Munch and Benson and Stable or the whole gang is there, and this house is like full cults. There's bibles strewn about, there's drawings on the wall of scripture stuff, and then there's just like a pile of dead children. I don't know how other way to put it.

On this episode.

There's PJ like you see like little bits of kids. Qutpj's like it's just really really awful. They do close up shots of Benson's face, Stabler's face, Munch and Finn like no one's doing well. And Olivia walks over and sees the kid who opened the door for her, and her face is just like so haunted.

I know we use that word a lot, but like she's just like.

Oh my god, I just saw this kid alive twenty minutes ago or however long ago it was. So Back at the squad, we find out that Abraham has escaped via tunnels under the house, and they also find out that eight years ago he tried to gain tax exempt status for what his organization called the Church of Wisdom and Sight. So basically, we are dealing with a cult here. Craigan's like, we might be dealing with a cult. No, Craigan,

We know how he feels about mental health.

I know, but it's like, you just saw a house of dead children? Can you just talk to a therapist? Like this denial of everything, Like it is so hard to watch these old episodes.

He is so annoying, I know.

And he's very like this is a waste of time. We got to get to our jobs. And it's like, okay, I mean.

It's a house of dead children. Just talk to George. Yeah. Yeah.

So Huang steps in and is like, I can talk to you right now, Like, let's get over with If speed is your issue, let's do it now. So Huang interviews Stabler, and we're now intercutting between Huang interviewing all four of the main cast. Stable's trying to be a tough guy, like, oh, what do you want me to say, you know, uh yeah, there's some dead kids, Like he's just being a dick. Munch is kind of trying to be cynical, but Houang is like, this is actually proof

Yeah, like tears building the eyes, but not dropping yes, plan that like just enough quivering of the lip.

Like later she does some real yelling but doesn't get too like it's she's really great. So then after everyone's sort of out of their psychological thing, Olivia gets an id on Abraham based off of one of his fingerprints in the house.

His name is Eugene Hoff.

He's got a long record for check theft all kinds of stuff. So basically we're getting the idea this guy's just like a snake oil salesman and this religious stuff is a cover for how he steals. But it's like, if you're stealing money and doing check fraud. Howard do you not have money for electricity for eight years?

But I guess to each their own what you want to spend your money on.

Finn comes out and is like, I'm taking off. He's going to take a quick leave. He's like, sometimes you just got to step back, Like you gotta love Finn. He's like, I just need a moment after seeing what I saw live, is like, they're definitely gonna send me home.

I got way too emotional.

And then Elliott gets called in and guess what, he gets sent home because this dude does not process shit, and they even take his gun.

Interesting.

Benson and Munch get paired up and we continue to the rest of the episode. I guess Stabler is going to be Stabler had I don't know an OS reunion to shoot that day.

I don't know. But he's not there anymore.

They look up an old church that he used to be a part of, which was a Pentecostal church. A hello, my husband grew up in the Pentecostal church, very very speaking in tugs very that very Sentropez and it's called the Christian Tabernacle of Grace. And they go and they talk to. It's not like a priest, it's like a church businessman. And he's like I was tricked, Like I believed this guy was super into religion and people were very drawn to him.

But he preached that the serpent was Christ. And that's a little nod to the tattoo.

I don't really know the serpent that convinced Adam and Eve to eat the apple, I guess is Jesus.

I don't know, but now I'm remembering the coloring of his tattoo is also I think a poison snake, isn't it like when it's red and black and somebody else that's like danger afoot.

I guess I didn't even know that about snakes, But yeah, you didn't know.

That's the more bright a reptile or animal, the more dangerous they are. No, Yeah, like frogs that are like super electric blue and cool colors.

It's basically like.

A warning to any predators, like you better stay away on poisonous as fuck.

Wow, well, Lisa, I'm so excited to know the fact that you didn't know nature channels over here. Thank you. But it's crazy and hard about snakes.

Is like there's somewhere if it's like red black yellow, like chill. But if it's like yellow black, red, you're dead. Yeah, something like wild. I don't know the patterns. You have to know the patterns. But the most beautiful.

Creatures are usually the most poisonous and deadly. That's interesting.

I'm sure there's a lot of metaphors with like woman Killer movies where they are dressed fancy.

Or like a Circle of Deceptions during Diane Neil, I miss our friends. I know, I mean her character was a femme fatale, not her. So this guy tells them that ten families left the parish with Eugene when he was fired.

Eugene aka Abraham. I mean my name was Eugene. I would change it too.

Yeah, well, we have a friend who has a friend. It just came through my brain and I said that I love Well.

I have to stop just saying I hate names on this podcast because people are like, ah, I think it's fine to not like a name.

To say a name's not for you doesn't mean you hate the person.

You know.

But Gene, I've been noticing, is popular. Like our friend has a friend named Jean. Amy Schumer's baby is named Jean.

Like I don't know.

And then on Mad Men, there was baby Gene a few years ago. That was a big thing.

My friend's dog is named Gene. Okay, that counts. I see a lot of dogs named Rosie on Instagram. Just fyi. But okay, So back into the story.

Eugene takes ten families with him when he leaves this Pentecostal church, but one family left him after a few years, so maybe you should go talk to them. Okay, now we're talking to them. Carl and Simone, Buckman and queens. They said Abraham was magnetic. He made you feel special, even in a room full of people. And he then like they eventually were kind of like he got a

And then he.

Started separating the married couples and surprised, surprised, the women slept on his floor and he paid. He would talk about the sanctity of children, but he paid most attention to little girls.

And at one point.

They caught him in their four year old's room in his underwear, and she swears he never touched her, but they pieced out that night because it sounds like it was only a matter of time. They give the cops a VHS tape of Abraham and now we are watching this him do a sermon of like the soldiers of Satan are coming to murder you and your children.

And all this kind of stuff that you would expect. Well, did you watch the We Work documentary? No?

No, okay, Well, because this reminds me of this where this couple is saying like he was magnetic, amazing, and.

Then you watch the footage and you're like, he's a creep.

And that's how I felt with We Work, Like everyone that was tricked by him were.

Like he was amazing and funny part and then you see him.

Talk the whole doc and you're like, I would spit on this person if I saw him.

I mean, it's the same with Keith Ranieri. People are like he was so magnetic.

I'm like, he looks like add volleyball dork, Like, what are you talking about? Like, I don't know, I'm not getting the magnetism, but I guess maybe you have to be in.

The room with them. I don't know.

Yeah, people would say maybe they don't feel that way about I'm a Chamberlain, but you do, so who knows?

Well?

I like, I'm a Chamberlain and I'm not like you for her. Yeah, I'm not selling off my possessions in like squirreling in her backyard, ready to serve, Like I just buy some merch.

Sometimes you're not doing those things, Lisa promise.

No.

I mean I have been an obsessive fan before. Did I bid on Anthony Ketis's shorts on eBay?

Yes? But you definitely have a healthy version vision.

You have a healthy way of being a fan that does not cross over into culhood.

And I was not suggesting that I'm just messing.

When Steve O was at a night club, did I wait in line, pay twenty dollars get in to meet him?

Yes?

Twenty dollars to meet Steve O doesn't sound that crazy to me.

Yeah. When I opened firm, I showed him this seleutty photo of me at twenty sneaking into clubs to meet him.

So tan, so blonde. But well, I mean, can we get that photo up on our Instagram?

I would love to let everyone know what I looked like in my youth. I was a clubber. Tan highlighted psychopaths well, I've sold the story how I had memberships some multiple tanning salons so I didn't have to wait twenty four hours. I could keep tanning. Like that's that's the vibe you're about to see.

I mean, I tanned so much in college, and I think I went to places that didn't even do the twenty four hour thing. Like I went to places where the packages were five dollars a session, like I was.

It was crazy.

How a couple of years ago, I think I tanned before I went to a wedding or something and I went to the La tan and Skochie and the woman was like, whoa, you haven't been here since twenty eleven.

Like she said a date that. Like she looked at me like how.

Old are you? But I hadn't been there in like so long. But still in the system. Still in the system.

So funny.

Okay, now let's get back to back to a murderous pedophile cult leader. So after they're watching his little sermon, you know, they're all sort of just talking about him. Huang's kind of profiling and being like a lot of cult leaders were known to have sexual relationships with children.

To go back, I'm sorry, but when the parents are talking to the detective. Their daughter's making a sandwich, like a peanutater and jelly sandwich in the background, and then they like tell her to go to her room, but then she leaves the fully made sandwich on the counter, Like, who'd you make the sandwich for?

Did not clock that? I guess she's not allowed to eat in her room. I don't know I clocked it. I was like, the sandwich is made.

She put the knife on the finished sandwich, and I was like, take it with you. But they had like jelly and a squeeze bottle and everything. But yeah, I guess when you start watching sv most of your week, you end up noticing background peanut butter.

Yeah.

So Huog is telling them that a lot of cult leaders were known to have sexual relationships with children.

Koresh had a ten year old bride.

There's another call leader he mentions that had like fourteen you know, young victims. Could I didn't catch the name of the of the call leader in that one. But then in the middle of this, someone calls the precinct asking if one of the boys found as a nine year old with brown hair and a scar on his leg. They're like trace the call, Wong calls in his like special tracing credentials and is like, this is Agent Hwang number seven to whatever whatever whatever put a trace on this line.

I didn't know that was how it worked, really, but I guess.

But then we also see like back in the day technology because then Marishka is like taping the phone call on speaker on a little tape recorder with little tape, so it is like very of the time that she has a little handheld tape recorder too, Yeah, for sure.

And she's just like begging to know.

Like it was there, a little boy, was their little boy, and you know, Craigan's got her on the hook. He's like, why don't you come in. You can identify the boy yourself. You can look at all the kids and see if.

You know any of them or whatever. And obviously she's like, I can't tell you.

She hangs up, and they trace the call to a payphone at Saint Catharine's, which is the hospital where we started the episode, which is where Melanie is. So Olivia goes to see Melanie and she's like, I can't tell you anything, and you know, Olivia kind of lays down the law with her and it's like, listen, bitch, sorry, I know you're twelve, but Abraham is a liar. He's going to kill your mom, et cetera, et cetera. And

They're basically a.

Flock without their drained shepherd, so they're they're freaking out and they're.

Trying to just like play it cool.

Then they get a call from the medical examiner, Tamaratuni, always flying in with some crazy news at a perfect time. She's got bad news for the cops. Abraham is not the one who killed the kids. The oldest victim is around twenty years old.

We've never seen her, we don't know who this person is, but she's the oldest victim.

She's twenty years old. Her wounds are self inflicted, her prints are the only prints on the gun, and she has gunshot residue all over her hands. So Munch is like Abraham is still responsible.

He had total control over all of them.

And Warner also discovers that all of these kids have the same father except for the shooter, so basically he's an incestuous pedophile.

Like and if you shoot all your kids, no one can testify to that except for Melanie. So now it's very very important that we.

Get INtime, we make sure Melanie is safe and that she can testify. Obviously, Live gets to the hospital and she's gone, and they say her dad took her home.

Uh, oh, that's not her dad.

Yeah, And it's like, even if that is her dad, or whatever version of a dad that is, it's a twelve year old who's pregnant. So the dad's not doing a good job, you know what I mean? Right, maybe don't release her.

Wait, Aye's checking her out of a hotel of a hospital when she's supposed to be on bed rest until she delivers. What's he saying, I'm going to take her home into a home birth. Like, I'm surprised he was even allowed to discharge her.

I guess against medical.

So at the squad, they are listening to one woman named Sarah talk to one of the cups and they recognize her voice from the call, which Olivia yes does have on.

A tiny handheld recorder.

And when she came in, she has a piece of paper with numbers in her pocket and she won't say what the numbers are. She does admit to being Melanie's mother. Eventually they they're like, we know you're Melanie's mom, and she says that Melanie's father abandoned them when Melanie was a baby, and then Olivia goes fucking off on her like blames her for the whole thing, for all the kids being killed. She's screaming at her. It's like it's honestly some of Benson's best yelling. Oh yeah, this scene

Cult leader, because I will.

I will drop anything and do anything you need, Like I will sell everything in my apartment to keep you safe.

Like she just kills it.

And like she just like to be able to scream and still look so beautiful, like while you're screaming with anger.

Yeah, and there's like a upper lip sweat and I'm like, okay, so now you're making upper lip sweat look good too.

So you think that Olivia is gonna break her with this beautiful screaming she's doing. But unfortunately Sarah is fully brainwashed and is.

Like this is a test and I will not be tempted. Typical cult shit.

Munch finds out that the numbers on the piece of paper in her pocket are bank account numbers, and someone has recently cleared them all out, and it's about six hundred thousand dollars. And a lot of these are counterfeit checks from large corporations, which are easier to counterfeit because large corporations don't, like you know, keep such track of like every penny, like the way I guess like a

Have an inside guy there. So I love this detail.

They go to the bank and when they show up, this fucking loser guy who you can tell is Abraham's guy on the inside is talking to trying to romance some lady on the phone, and he goes, we could go someplace special, I don't know, go to Tampa. Like, who are you that Tampa is the place you're trying to bring? No offense to anybody from Tampa. I've spent a lot of time there. I have family in Sarasota. I fly into Tampa all the time.

It's just not the place that you're trying to like romance whisk a woman off to Okay, wait.

Isn't that where real house sives of Atlanta. Drew's husband went to Tampa.

He went to where he went. He went to Tampa.

It's the stripper capital in the world or in America or something like strip club capital.

It's big strip club territory.

I keep saying world, but I'm sure there's another country that has more strip clubs.

What do you think.

I feel like the US has the market cornered on strip clubs.

I don't know, but Hannah will type and find out number number country to the club.

It's gonna be sometime. It's gonna be like Lincoln Stein for the US. It's Portland.

Yeah, they have fifty four in Portland. That doesn't feel like fifty four is my lucky number. So Portland beats Tampa, Wow, and Atlanta. I mean, I feel like Atlanta has a lot of strip clubs.

I mean like there's a lot.

I'm I'm but I've always known my dad told me that, which is sad. My dad told me Portland was the strip club capital, so it's always stuck.

In my head. Well, they're also full nake in Portland.

Oh, they go full I'm a I'm a full nude type of bitch. As we learned from watching Zola me and I.

Was about to say Zola. They go to Tampa. Yeah, yeah, So.

I just think it's funny that this guy's about to be like somewhere special like Tampa.

So they confront him about Abraham.

They're like, look, the FBI is involved, just like get your already bucked, so just don't even try it with us, And he's like, okay, Abraham's coming in later. Today he's closing out one last account. It has more money in it than all of them. I feel like this next scene is very reminiscent of Fault, even though Fault is season seven, right, It's just a similar kind of scene. It's like asking a civilian to kind of like play a role to lure a guy in to get money.

I was getting a lot of Fault echoes in this even though this episode came first.

But it's also this bank guy is like it's like it's like, what is your loyalty to this guy?

Just turn him over to the FBI.

Like it felt like he was like struggling to do this. Maybe it was just nerves, maybe maybe.

Thought he was gonna kill him, but not never as bad as that fucking guy from Fault who worked at the check cashing place. Fuck that guy forever. So Reggie is the name of the bank teller guy like uh. Abraham walks in and Reggie's immediately like sweating through the glass.

You can tell he's very nervous. He's fucking it up.

Munch is like, Reggie's blowing this, We're blown, blah blah blah. Craigan pulls his gun. All these people pull guns. Abraham's totally cornered. He pulls out a knife and says like into the darkness.

Or something like that. I don't remember. I didn't write down the actual quote, but it's some kind of like, you know, faux religious bullshit.

Almost slits his own throat and then Olivia jumps on him out of nowhere to stop it. And at the top of act four, we've got more. I swear they must have nominated her for an Emmy for this episode. We should look it up because there's so many good scenes. This is another great scene. She's interviewing Abraham by herself.

Okay, she's not.

There's no Stabler tag tag team. She's alone, one on one with this freaky ass cult leader, and he tries to turn the tables on her, like how can you invite all this depravity of your job into your mind, your body, your soul. It's going to eat you like a cancer, Like why is this so important to you?

Are you? Have you been raped? Like you know he's trying to get to her.

It's also like didn't you just see a bunch of dead child like you are creating the thing.

I cut this out. This makes no sense. I'm just in a rage. I would actually counter and say, do not cut this out.

So Olivia is speaking to him, but the way that they're shooting it, it almost looks like she's doing like a monologue like into the camera, and she's basically like telling Abraham like she has his number and he's not going to fucking get in her head like and she's like, you're pathetic, like you actually believe your own hype. You've conned yourself. And then she kind of walks out of the room and he does have a look on his face like fuck this woman, like knows what I'm up

A hot shot lawyer.

Because this guy shows up and kind of knows what's up, and he's like, you're never going to get him on statutory rate because it's only the Emmy's estimation of how old this girl is, so that's not concrete enough for any judge that'll rule out statutory rape.

And without that, you're not going to get incested. And I still think.

You'd get all this with DNA. So I'm a little bit confused. How the lawyer comes in just like bing bang bong and like it's done. But and he's like, and your murderer killed herself. So Casey's like, we're pretty screwed, like this guy's right. I hate to say it, but this guy's right, Like, we don't really have a case without Melanie, and monchur Craigan says, what about Manson?

And that's what originally I thought of.

I was like, Manson went to jail and he never killed anybody specifically as far as I know. And they're like, Manson had followers who testified.

So that's the problem. That's why we need Melanie.

Melanie what a popular girl. Everyone wants a piece of her exactly.

The account that Abraham was trying to out at this bank actually has over a million dollars in it and it was under the name of John Kramer in Englewood, New Jersey. Now they go and they talk to some private investigator who investigated his disappearance. So it turns out this guy, John Kramer, vanished with his wife and two year old daughter named Melanie, ten years earlier.

So we're starting to get a picture here.

We find out that from this private investigator, who the wife's parents had hired to find her and the family because they all just disappeared, We find out from him that Melanie has a trust fund with two million dollars in it that she gets when she turns twenty one or she has a baby, whichever one comes first. The last trace of John that this investigator found was buying construction materials on his credit card that his mom paid

So now we're back at the house.

We've got a lady with a blueprint and she's like, we're basically looking for a room that shouldn't be there. They find this wall basically attached to a bathroom and they're like, this is this is supposed to be the exterior wall of the house. Like, this isn't right. They x ray it, they see a skeletal hand. They cut open the wall and they find skull and bones sitting in a pile of kitty litter to hide the scent.

This is one of my favorite SVU things, is like a body behind the wall.

Yeah, and they do it a few times. Yeah. I do love when they fine. I like it.

It's fucked up, but I like it. It is interesting because we both lived in New York. There's only so many places you can hide a fucking body in New York. We are not in Iowa, where we can go dump bury a body in a cornfield or the desert or any of that shit. Like, New York is a very densely populated, tight place. We don't have a lot of space.

So if you want a body where you can keep an eye on it, Allah.

Dory and Corey in Fucking Uh Paris is Burning documentary. This drag performer who killed a john they believe, but probably was attacked by the john and killed in self defense, kept the body in a trunk in her closet for years until it mummified, and it was only found when she when she died.

But this isn't because they're Party Monster, that movie with mcaulay Culkin that's based on James Saint James and all this weird stuff.

There was a body hidden. I don't know if that's the same story. No, but they killed like a random person and kept him in a trunk.

Oh okay, Okay, so I'm saying trunks walls, we got to make We got to improvise in New York if you're going to try to hide a body.

And so I guess is the body? Where is the body?

And I guess some people feel better knowing where bodies are rather than just like ditching it and like living with the paranoia of somebody finding it.

Well, and it's like the ultimate trophy too. Yeah, Like you're not even keeping a little bracelet. You're keeping right if you're like a Sierra body.

Yeah.

So this guy still has his wallet in his pants. It's literally like bones in a pair of jeans, and like he has a wallet.

I love the way you say bones. I can hear you say bones all day long.

Oh my god, thank you.

So they pull out his bank card and it is John Kramer. Okay, So now this whole picture is starting to come together that Abraham killed this man to get to his wife and child. We find out also that the wife her name is Cindy, So she goes by Sarah in the cult, but her name is Cindy in her before life. They show Sarah slash Cindy the wallet, and they show her pictures of this dead body, this the bones. They tell her, this is your husband. He was shot in the back of the head and he

And then Olivia's got the smoking gun.

She just sort of flicks a little baggy with a wedding ring in it at her and goes, he was wearing it when he died.

So then the woman is really.

Starting to understand I've been completely fleeced and I've allowed my daughter to be impregnated by a cult leader. So Olivia definitely lets her feel the guilt and says, where's Melanie. He's going to take her money and then he's going to kill her when she has this baby. The lawyer's like, what's in it for her? And the mom's just like, she's up north in a warehouse.

What's in it for her? Not a dead daughter? Yes, so true.

So now we're at this warehouse, they find Melanie. She's in this little like storeroom on like a blow up bed or whatever, and it's Benson and officers Remainno from the earlier part of the episode. They go into the room. They're like, Melanie, we're here to get you out of here. And then he Abraham slashed Eugene comes back. They have him up against the wall and he's encouraging Melanie like, see, I told you they were going to come for us, Like you got to stop them, you got to stop them.

This cop in the leg.

Well, and this is kind of like a callback to what happened in the house where it's like he obviously makes women do the crime and all the work too, right, you know, he's not going to get his fingerprints on that gun. He'd rather give it to this pregnant twelve year old, right, and he obviously gave it to her. Earlier room was like if anyone comes in, shoot them and whatever.

So he's busy.

I wonder if people run up to Jeffkober in the streets and go, how dare you, like, I wonder if people don't know well, so then more shades of fault to me where there's that time there's that standoff where it's like shoot him, Livia, Oh you gonn shoot me, Lyvia, what are you gonna do?

You know?

So there's that whole thing that happens here where both Eugene slash Abraham and Olivia are screaming things at Melanie, being like, I'm here to help you know, I'm your father, I'm your husband, whatever. Like They're both going at it like screaming at the same time and stressing around, and we're upping the tension and upping the tension.

We don't know what's going to happen.

And Abraham says, they're afraid of me because I am greater than man and I am greater than God, and they're afraid of what I can do. And then in that moment, a shot rings out and Abraham is shot and Melanie has shot Abraham, and Benson goes to her. They hug and she's Melanie's crying in her arms and she's like, that was a lie. He said he was greater than God, but nobody is. So in a way, religion kind of saved.

The day here in a weird way.

And it's good that she's going to have that two million dollar trust fund to pay for her lifetime of therapy.

And that is the end of charisma.

Thanks so much, Kara, and stay tuned for the real life horrors.

As we say, get ready to get sad.

So this is based on the case of Marcus Wesson. And of course, like there's vibes of Dave Koresh and like Jim Jones and all that, but those are such giant, well known cases that I thought I would focus on them Marcus Wesson case, and it's like fully one hundred percent unfortunately exactly what happened, Like it's since it's this Sun's really sad.

It is upsetting. It did take a lot out of me.

And the guy is super super scary and all the children.

Are very very cute, beautiful children.

So this case of Marcus Wesson is in Fresno, California, and he has one of my worst qualities physic. I hate matted dreads. Like, if you're gonna have dreads, take care of that. I just like there's you know when you just see one big clumped out dread with someone and you're like, I don't want to be near you.

That's how you feel. I just really don't like dirty dreads. So he has dirty dreads.

And Marcus is the leader of an ancestual cult founded on the beliefs of vampires and that he was God. So it's a very like vampire Christian situation because it's like Jesus gave up his blood and that's like what vampires do.

So okay, it's pretty strange.

And they also could have been considered Seventh day Adventists as well, but then it morphed into this weird vampire situation, and the prosecutors described him as a domineering patriarch who controlled his family with religious teachings and sexual abuse, so pretty close to the truth. He had a wife named Elizabeth who he met when she was eight years old, so Elizabeth was his girlfriend's daughter. So like, he came home from the army and he moved in with this older woman named Rosemary Selario.

You're Italian? Is that son Italian? Yeah? Yeah, it could be. It makes me want pizza, Okay, So.

Rosemary Scelario is this older woman that he moved in with when he came home from the army, and she had several children from a previous relationship. She had a kid with Marcus, but then he strayed in onto this eight year old daughter. So he basically said like she's meant for me and you I own you, and that was that, and the mom was like, okay, cool, but you can't get married till she's a teenager. And so basically like let her boyfriend date her eight year old

She was like, I'm so special. God shows me.

So in nineteen seventy four, when she was fourteen and he was twenty seven, they got married and that was the Mother of Rosemary's rule, like you have to wait to get married, it's so fucking sick. She gave birth Elizabeth to eleven children with Wesson from the ages of

Fast food all the time. Oh my god.

They did not go to school, obviously, he took care of their education.

Yes, safe to say he's a proponent of homeschooling.

I would get yeah, And his lessons were mostly Bible studies that were based on the fact that he was God and that Jesus Christ was a vampire, which could be a funny show.

You know.

That's what sucks about all this Jesus Christ vampire is pretty fun, but he didn't make it fun. And then Sin's lessons that also sounds like a fun like pretzel school, you know, like there's just lessons, ugh.

But not that fun of lessons.

A lot of the lessons were just sexual technique, like that was a big part of the girl's curriculum, was learning sexual technique. And they were also in charge of washing his dreads and like scratching his head and armpits and stuff for him, like they had to take care of him physically. Psychiatrist Edward Hallowell described the cult as being run on fear as a tool for manipulation, and this tactic forced the children to act against their own

Okay way to escape them. This is upsetting.

He purchased caskets months before this mass murder, so he had caskets ready for everyone in the house, like in a room, because that's part of the lesson where it's like death over separation. So it didn't seem like this horrible thing. I don't know, but he had caskets ready for everybody. One of the boys, Sarafino explained, like the life was terrible. He was one of the survivors, one of the boys. But he said punishments would last up to thirty days.

It would be like, you know, sixty three hits a day.

Twenty one in the morning and then twenty one in the afternoon, twenty one in the evening, for like days on end. And some of the girls in the house said, like they would have to remind him of their punishments because he would forget, so you would have to go to him and be like, you forgot to whip me today twenty one times, Like you had to constantly remind him to beat you.

But that's how like Culty this really was.

And like Sarafino said, the punishment of getting beat thirty days was because he stole a spoonful of peanut butter, and that reminds me of Nix Marie brown Kis, where it's like just such small things and such violent fucking consequences and it's just really really sad. He would beat them with Bat's electrical chords and like even worse stuff that I really don't need to be mentioning, but you can imagine it sucked, and like what sucks on top of it all is the children didn't know any better.

He made a suicide pack that.

If any government official ever tried to take the kids away or split up the family, that the mothers were to kill their children and themselves, and held monthly meetings to discuss the details of the plans.

So they had like five drills but for the suicide.

Pact, which in essence is just to like cover his own tracks, really right, like, yeah, he doesn't believe this shit. So he's basically just like we all if the cops come in, we all have to die so that like I don't get in trouble.

He's truly one of the scariest people I've ever seen. We really we research a lot of horrific crimes, but like when you look into his eyes, it's like a shark or a crocodile, Like there's nothing there.

It's really no soul in those eyes.

So what happened on this day of March twelfth, two thousand and four is when everything came together.

And this is coincidentally, like months before this episode of U S for You, So it's definitely based on this.

Oh wow, Yeah, So what happened on March in this March twenty March two thousand and four was police officials said that in the afternoon, the officers were called to the house for a child custody to dispute. They say, as they arrived, two women were outside the house and they were there to pick up their kids, but Marcus would not let them in. And these two women were two nieces that ran away and then they returned to

Get out of there. They agreed.

They realized that this isn't good, and like they were not happy with their lives and they had to get out of there.

And so then so they escaped, leaving their children behind.

But then once they got adjusted to the world outside and started getting like they started to understand what he had done to them and everything that they had been through, and they got they were like, fuck, he's doing this to the rest of our family.

We have to help.

So, like I said, March twelfth, two thousand and four, they gathered several relatives for support and went back to the home to rescue their children, and like I said, refuse to let them in. And the rest of the family was call like yelling at them Judas whoors commanding them to bow down to your master. So everyone in the home still fully like in his grip, and so they're screaming horrific things at these women that are just

They are in grave danger, and.

The cops were like, yo, we don't have enough evidence for a warrant and didn't enter.

Wesson did meet the.

Police at the door and told them to like wait and he'd be right back, and disappeared back into the house.

They allowed it at first.

Wesson, I guess told the officers that he would release the children, but then instead ran into this bedroom and locked the door and then shots rang out that the cops deny they heard, even though.

Neighbors heard them. What so, oh my god.

When he appeared again, he was covered fully in blood and nine of the children were dead. There was an hour long standoff before he surrendered. When the officers entered the home, they found a pile of bodies in one room and ten coffins in different sizes like in another room. Good. The victims were six females, three males, ranging from the age of one to twenty four. Yeah, and they were all related, and all the children were shot in the head.

Like they just truly.

Were fully brainwashed, and it took years of deprogramming and separation from him that any of them finally realized what they had all been through. And there's there are interviews with like the children and they're really upset, like when they're talking about it, even though they're out of it. It was like kind of shame a little bit too. Like one of the sons said, I believed he was gone until I was nineteen years old, Like, you know,

Damn, And that's kind of it. And it's just sad and.

It's scary to think like this could be happening to.

Someone right now.

Yeah, not to leave everyone on a terrible, terrible note, but it's just like off the grid, Like you said, I don't even think it's only money about no electricity in the episode are with him. It's also like you can't trace them, you can't track it. You don't know where who's there, how many people are living there, Like, yeah, I just wonder.

What was going through his mind when he went into that bedroom and killed all those kids, Because it's like, if you're not going to get all of them, You're still going to be implicated. And he didn't take his own life, So it's like, what did you think was gonna happen? The cops are at your front door? What did you think was going to happen? Like, those kids didn't have to die. No, it's just so I mean, maybe he thought he was sending.

Them to heaven or whatever, if he believed his own religion. No, I think he's just like an evil, evil person. Yeah, I don't know, I have no idea. And then I was really shocked that we don't know more about this case because it is so heinous and horrific and terrible. But in the same area, during the same time, Scott Peterson's trial was happening, and so because of that, that case got so much attention, it seems like this one

Beautiful white woman.

Yeah, yeah, Oh my god, that makes it so sad that like that. I'm so surprised. I don't know about this case, and that's totally why.

Wow.

Yeah, it's a black family and so no one cared. I don't know, but it does seem like one of the most horrific crimes I've ever looked at. So it is shocking that it's not anywhere at all. It's a bummer, but it sucks that this wasn't a bigger case because maybe those the children could have gotten more funds or support help, Like I don't know how much support they had without this journalist. I'm going to have to read this book if I can manage being sad for a long time.

Well, we've done it, Charisma, we've done it. We made it.

Through and now we have a guest as always and it's.

A good one, all right, you guys. I am beyond psyched for this interview because this is someone who has truly haunted me in his work since I was a child, and we talk about it in the interview. But you guys might know him from shows like China Beach or Sons of Anarchy. He's been on The Walking Dead and a little movie called the first power that traumatized me as a child. He was recently nominated for a Daytime Emmy for his portrayal of Cyrus Renault on General Hospital,

This is one of our most requested episodes with all of our listeners, and we kept denying them. We're like, it's too scary, it's too sad, we refuse, and then we're obviously when we found out we got to talk to you. We had to do it. And do you feel like our listeners need help?

Absolutely?

It's a horrifying episode and I just saw it for the first time this week.

I had never watched it before.

And do you not watch any of your work or just when you're playing someone really scary?

I don't watch a lot of my work.

Every once in a while, I do, but it's you know, hell, could be watching yourself on video, your whole life, here's your whole life on video, sit and watch.

But this one.

I sat down with my family to watch it, and when I saw how horrifying this person was, I had to leave the room.

It was too much.

Oh, so, how do you prep for a role like that?

Well, I.

Learned something extraordinary on this job, which is the situation adds the horror. I played it as a man of God. I was really trying to be helpful to Rishka.

When I was. She was interviewing me, but I was actually interviewing her. Yeah, and I thought that I was, you know, I was.

I was speaking the words of Jesus and really trying to help people out. Though there were how twenty four children killed.

Something some a bad number of the children, for sure.

Do you think he's the worst character you've ever played or have there been worse?

Let's see, Well I played I played a Richard Ramirez type character in The First Power. Yes.

And if I could jump in here right now and just say that that's a movie I saw you in when I was ten years old, and I was truly terrified by you for a very long time.

That was horrifying. That was that guy was sick.

And we talked to Lou Diamond Phillips about you. Also. Oh, because we brought up that movie.

Lou, we had fun. It was good.

Yeah, that movie is I think I was just like it was on like HBO or something when I was ten, and my brother and I thought we would be edgy and watch it, and I just was like, I thought you were so so scary in it. So you're You've always been a great actor in my mind because you've terrified me as a child, But now such a pleasure to be talking to you.

Thank you.

I actually we shot that while Richard Ramirez was on trial. I actually went to his trial and that was extraordinary because the banality of evil was so amazing. He was like, yeah, they got me. Yeah, he had no conception of what it was he'd done.

What was the vibe in that courtroom?

Well, it was.

Courtrooms are a lot more boring than they are on SPU and they were just going through a lot of procedural stuff. But he every time the door opened, he would spin around to see who walked into the room. And one time he spun around and I was sitting in the back row and our eyes locked for a moment, and it was like something you'll never be able to unsee.

Could you tell his eyes?

I'd like, no soul, like wore his eyes different than other people you look at.

Yes, there was no soul.

Soul was buried so deep in him that it had never made it to his eyes.

Wow.

So did you you go to the trial to research for the movie?

Yeah?

Yeah, I was very much into research at that time in my life, and I overdid it on that movie.

I have to say.

We shot in a Catholic church on Sunset Boulevard and they had me standing on the altar making you know, a crucifix gesture and saying something about come and get me, buddy boy or whatever. And the pre came along and he hadn't been inside the church when we were in there. He said, hope you're not doing anything to bring down the wrath of God on us.

We were, Oh, no, that's so.

And so we've talked to Neil bar a couple times. He's one of our regular FAV guests and we saw that you guys work together in China Beach and was this how you SVU came about? Was I'm assuming it was an offer only? Like right, No, no, I read for it. I think no way, I think so. Really, I think so.

You know what it's It's only was almost twenty years ago.

I know, I know it's okay if you don't remember something.

I don't even smoke pot anymore. I actually don't. It might have been an offer, could have been.

We just were we were just putting that, we put the pieces together. When we saw that you'd done China Beach, we thought maybe Neil Bear brought you in or something.

It's it's it's possible. I'd have to ask someone with a better memory than than I.

We could ask Neil because he remembers everything.

Okay, and then one of the other shocking things besides the murder in the episode is like a pregnant young child. And so how was it like working with the kid with the pregnant belly the gun?

You're evil? Like, what's that process?

Like? Well, again, you you have to play it like it's a love story. And you know, people say she was twelve, I'd say twelve and a half.

And again, God told.

Me to do it, so I it was she was the right person for the job. You know, you have to ignore the fact because this character was not horrified by what he was doing.

Right, he was doing what he thought was right.

Yeah, she even says that in the in the interview, she says, you know, the really sad thing is you've bought your own height, you know, And so yeah, he was.

He was not just a scam artist.

He was a scam artist because, as God told him, he needed money.

That face that you make when she says that to you is like the best acting ever.

It was real. It was a great face.

I think she won an Emmy for that episode.

Oh my god.

I literally kept saying, did Maurshika get nominated for an Emmy for this episode?

Because I just thought she was so great in that episode?

Oh yeah, yeah, and she you know, we talked because I did my half of the interrogation first because of just camera angles, and then we talked about what she should do.

She said, I never get to do scenes like this.

I'm always just saying, you know, if you think of anything, call me and hance people a card. And so to have actual interaction back and forth with another actor was just so exciting for her based on what she'd been doing up to that point.

So we had a lot of fun.

There any other stories from the set and your experience that you feel our listeners would be thrilled to hear about.

We shot that it was springtime in New York.

Everyone seemed to be very tired and wanted to go home.

Okay, And and they actually sent.

Iced Tea and uh and Chris Maloney they in the in the story they get sent home or Ic decides to go home.

We did a movie together too, Ic Tya and another.

One was it Girl or Yeah the Kangaroo. What did that?

Someone just sent us that. I remember seeing that and I have to watch that. I can't wait to watch him be at Kangaroo.

Yeah, both of us were kangaroos.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and we'd all we all One of the things about being a kangaroo was that we remember we were engineered kangaroos, and you're able to remember what your past life was. And and he was a cop and I was a dog, but I was a really good dog. So I got to move up to kangaroo in this life.

And he was a bad guy, so he moved down to kangaroo.

No, he was.

He was a cop and now he was which was just funny because there was Iced Tea and cop Killer and all that.

No, he was a good guy. We were heroes. We were the hero kangaroos.

Wow did it?

And you guys you remembered each other on set? Did you reminisce about your Kangaroo days.

Not much because we didn't actually act together. All my stuff was with Marishka. You know, we said hello. I think that was it.

Do you remember this scene where she jumps on your back when you're about to slit your own throat?

That was actually surprising to me. I didn't remember that scene at all. I remember so much the stuff in the interrogation scene and the scene where the little girl shot me, and.

I remember one of the one of the takes on that I don't know.

It was horrible, I think, but I called her a little bitch for shooting me.

Bitch, all in good fun.

Of course.

So then when you're offset, do you have to be like extra nice to her when you're not in action?

Like do people explain?

I had no, it was It was.

So interesting because I had no problem being nice in that in that job, because I just didn't think of myself as a bad guy. And in watching it, I was a little horrified for the little girl. Oh my god, what they put her through. I looked her up on IMDb. I don't think she's worked since two thousand and six or something.

Yeah, a lot of the kids in the show, sometimes like either are so good, and then we look them up and they've quit acting, and we're like, what a waste. I wanted to ask, like, do you I mean, did I know this came out a while ago, but like, do you ever get recognized for this role or for like other roles where you play like these terrifying characters.

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah, Because I was going to say, I when we were obviously researched sing you for this. I watched all the seasons of Sons of Anarchy. I've seen every episode of Sense of Anarchy. I did not clock that you were that character because you just are like not You're not like evil in that show. No bad, You're just like a bad You're a regular bad guy. You're not as terrifying. You're more politically a politician bad right.

Oh thank you, not just not.

Just totally not just not just the guy who scared me to when I was ten.

Now, the one thing personally that was going on for me at that time was I had just learned how to properly meditate a couple of months before we shot that, and that was really helpful in terms of letting it go, you know when when I was offset and I remember it was a beautiful springtime in New York and uh like meditating in Union.

Square Park and uh, just just.

Being present in a way that I hadn't hadn't been before.

Yeah, are you still a meditator?

Yeah? I teach meditation now.

Wow wow right you love it?

Yeah? Well, it just did.

It did transform my life, so I kind of ended up having to, you know, be able to offer it to others.

Amazing.

We also saw that you are like a horse guy, Yeah, rancher nature.

Uh well, I I was raised on a farm.

Uh so I I and I've had some horse experience. I wrote a lot with a friend here in la and Chloe Webb and I have written a lot together. She was on China Beach with Me. You remember Chloe from Sid and Nancy And she was also on Aimless.

She played the ex wife.

Oh my god, I love Yes, I love shameless.

Yeah.

Did you go back to those roots during.

COVID times like did you go back to Montana or anything?

Were you in La No?

I stayed in La Yeah.

Montana is kind of uh, it's a place to visit, but not to stay understood.

And then again, I know this is a long time ago, but going back to the scene in the bank with the knife, curious about special effect? What was that made out of? What do like, what are the fake knives made out of rubber?

They are rubber?

They are rubber.

Yeah, And then sometimes you'll just have one that is really dull, but like in a scene like that where you're going to get tackled, it's almost always a rubber so that you don't hurt yourself.

Or that Marishka Harget doesn't hurt you.

Right because she's taught. How many episodes have they.

Done, like for it just they just wrapped the twenty second season and I believe it was around the five hundredth episode.

So it's like nuts, so many episodes.

So many episodes.

Yeah, and you're one of the most heinous of twenty two seasons.

You're one of the scariest episodes.

That's well, that's that's something right.

Oh yeah, Well, if you were to come back to SVU, they love to bring people back. What would kind of be what would you love to be?

I would like to be a man of God, you know, some kind of a preacher who is not quite as creepy.

Well, you did play something like that in Bosh too.

I did, but he was creepy.

You come on, I'm telling you.

He was a creepy man of God.

But then you weren't the killer. But you weren't the bad guy even though you were creepy.

I was the red hairring.

You were the red herring. Yeah, Kara loves Bosh. I love Bosh. She talks about it all the time.

I taught Titus out to meditate.

Oh my gosh, well he's an svulum too.

Oh all right.

We did a movie together too that c. Thomas Howell directed. I killed him on a It was on a table saw. I leaned him over a table saw and then turned it on. I kissed him as I was turning it on, and then sort of I don't remember.

Well, I'll be checking your IMDb.

I'll have to look it up.

Well, how did you get into acting? Like growing up on a ranch farm style? What was the moment?

I followed a woman from college down to LA and that relationship broke up at about the same time that a band I was in broke up, and I was working in my first and only ever office job for Getty Oil Company.

I was a temporary paralegal.

And I remember that being in college, going to classes made sense. You like, studied something, you took a test, You knew who you were, at least within those parameters.

And I was completely lost. And I thought, I need to go to a class.

And one of the women that I was working with said, I go to this acting class.

I think you really like it.

And so I went to an acting class and it was you know, I was this big emotional mess and there are people going on stage and being big emotional messes. And I went, oh god, I'm home and and that's that's where it started.

Wow, well, thank god that girlfriend broke up with you, right, Yeah.

She she I don't I don't know what happened to her.

So were you? I bet Kara was a Yeah.

I was speaking of girlfriends and and and you know, I we read that you and your wife co authored a book about called The Art that Pays The Emerging Artist Guide to Making a Living.

Yeah, and we want to know what the tips are we are the tips? We're artists, we're emerging. What's our tips? How do we make money?

Which you love? You're doing it?

This is it?

Just keep doing? You know?

I act, I teach meditation, I write and take I do tin type photography. These are all things that I do for free, and somehow I'm able to make a living by doing those things. And I do it because I've been just absolutely incapable of working for anyone else. I get fired from every job I have, you know, so that's a gift because I've had to do well. If I'm going to not be able to do anything else, I might as well do what I love.

And somehow I've been able to make a living at it.

And they don't fire you from acting jobs.

That's never had No. I got fired from a play in Williamstown because the writer of the play wanted to do the role.

Oh my gosh, so he just got you booted.

Yeah wow, I'd like the listeners to know I rolled my eyes is.

Beyond? Do you still do theater? Y?

Yeah?

Yeah, when I when I can, when when they let me, when it's good?

And what are you writing? What do you like to write?

I hate to admit it, but I'm actually about finished with a memoir.

Why do you want not want to admit that?

Well, because it's I I loath the memoir. I don't want I don't want to read someone talking about themselves, and you know we have so much of that in life, like to have to read it too.

But if I've you know, I I have a story to tell and it turns out that that's the way that the story wants to be told.

So cool, that's all thrilling.

Would you like, is there anything that is coming out or you're working on that you would like people to know about?

Well?

I uh, I wrote a movie that is out. They can watch it on I believe it's on Amazon and Apple is called Lie Exposed, with Leslie Hope and Bruce Greenwood. It's about a woman who's is based on a play that I wrote about people coming home from an art show, and the art show turns out to have been a series of images of woman's private parts, and it turns out that she's dying of ovarian cancer, and she hooks up with this artist who takes pictures of her and she ends up putting on a show of it. It's

Yeah, where did the inspiration come from? You have no clue.

Well, I was writing a screenplay with a friend and we had to have a scene of two actors working in this screenplay on a play, and I'd never written a play, So I wrote a scene of these two people coming home from a show where they were arguing whether it was art or pornography. And I was teaching acting at the time, and I had my actors work on this scene so I could hear it out loud and make it better, and they said, this is great.

And in the play you don't have to see the images. I mean, you know it's.

But then Leslie Hope wanted to use it as her swan song to acting. She's gonna she's directing now, and so we turned it into a screenplay. And in the screenplay you can't talk about these kind of images the whole time, and they never see them. So I had to then take images ten type images of a friend, intimate intimate images a friend, Yeah, a very good friend.

Who's who who really.

Went above and beyond to like show up because it was hours of shots and trying to make something not look pornographic though it's exposing humans intimacy.

It was a challenge, but a fun one.

That's cool.

I want to watch it, okay, exposed. All right, I'm so glad you're No. We knew you weren't going to be evil, but I definitely you know, it's nice to learn about the meditation and writing, and you just seem like you're creatively, very fulfilled.

I have a great life.

Yeah, you know, I'm always doing something fun, always doing something creative. Uh, and I get paid for it. You know, this this general hospital thing. I'd never done soap oppers, but they hired me just before COVID happened, and then we started working sooner than just about anyone during COVID, and so that kept me, you know, fed amazing the last year and a half.

Yeah.

I used to watch gh as A as a young person as well. And are Luke and Laura still there or what's.

Laura is actually the mayor of Port Charles, Oh my god. And as it turns out, she is my half sister, so we had a lot of work to do together.

It was a lot of fun.

Now is your character.

I think your character's name is Cyrus, which I always feel like it is a bad guy name, and so you're a bad guy, okay.

Really so bad.

If you read the Twitter feed from when my character first came on, it was like, who is his bastard?

Get rid of him? He should die. Cyrus needs to die. They're so intensely.

Want though from soap opera characters. I think, well, yeah, the bad guy in Conne is Cyrus.

And she Kara's never seen it. I need her to see conn Air. Have you seen conn Air?

No?

I didn't see conn Air.

It's one of my favorites. It's yeah, CON's on a plane.

I loved it.

Do you have any con phals?

No, we've never written anyone in jail? I have it. I speak for myself.

Lisa, No, I haven't, and it is really tough. So I don't know if you know. But part of this podcast we then research the real crimes that the episodes are based on, and this one took a lot out of me. I was my turn to research the crime, and we just we researched really awful things.

And I don't know.

If I can, I don't know, But your character is based on a guy who truly did do like something exactly like this.

Like the episode's very closely based. So it's like, yeah, there's a.

True crime you know, there's a true crime addiction happening in this country right now.

I don't know if you know about it.

What do you think that's about? What?

I don't know. I don't know.

But and it's a lot it's it's very female too, like I mean, it's not it doesn't exclude men, but it's very like women make up the majority I think of true crime consumers.

And I don't know if it's like we're all scared we're going to get murdered, I don't know what it is.

Do you think it's because people are frightened and they need to have some place to aim.

That maybe, And I think people learn tips, Like there was a new story last month where a little girl because she watched so much SVU, someone tried to kidnap her and she knew how to fight them off and leave evidence and.

What to do to escape the situation because of the show.

And there's a Forensic Files where this happened to a young woman was kidnapped and she was able to like leave fingerprints and like look at things and cues and look at the details of the car and was able to like catch this serial killer because of her knowledge. So unfortunately, I do think we get tips from the show. Wow, do you watch crime stuff? Like what do you watch?

No, well, I watch I like detective stuff. I don't like slasher stuff. Yeah, that's that. I don't like that. But you know, like broad Church, Oh, I love Church. Church was great, so good.

And there's the Bridge Dust Broke to the It was a Danish Swedish co production.

I like Swedish noir a lot of the Bridge.

Did they make that into a US one with Diad?

Yeah? I watched that. Yeah, I didn't see the American version.

I only watched the American version, and I'm sure you're I'm sure the foreign version.

Was way better.

That's like the broad Church that I watched as the British You probably that's the one you watched, and the one I don't think was as good. Another good British one is Happy Valley.

I've heard this from so many people.

If you're into that kind of thing.

Okay, all right there, and that just I think another part of the crime is, like we do like heroes in the way when these people are caught, Like maybe it is a fake sense of safety when you find out that these people.

Are Yeah, and that's what you does for people at least, because it ties up every scenario kind of in a bow, right, and you know, like even if it's even if it's not a great outcome. I mean, in your episode, many children are not no longer living, but like you know, we still you get the guy and you know, they.

Kind of skip. I mean they it's they don't spend a lot of time being horrified about the dead children, do they know? I mean they do have you know, they send Chris Maloney's character home and Ice Tea goes home to spend time with his kids, you know, and and she's very upset with me.

Yes, talking, But Marishka is like other triggers of cases that really.

Not the character.

Has she been on your show?

That's the holy grail.

You know.

Once we get her, we got to end the show, so we can't make it last.

Yeah, we had one listener, right, and like, hey, you should get Marishka harget On the show, and it's a great idea, but we also we kind of want to meet her in person. We we've obviously built up fantasy.

In our hand. Yeah, going to New York and going to set and seeing her.

You know, I support you in that.

Thank you.

One day she'll do it, I think, because she's she is just she is just so open and full and alive and really just a normal person.

I mean, Lisa, that was such a great conversation. I just like love talking to him. I want to go ride a horse with him in Malibu. What's going on? Yeah, it was amazing and it just shows I don't know, especially in our line of work. I was actually doing two people's podcasts that are like successful and they were like, well, I think we'd be more successful if we did this, and I'm like, you.

Guys are successful, and I think there's so much of.

A rat race at times, or you never think you're fulfilled, or there's always someone doing more, having more, And it is so nice to talk to someone that's like, yeah, I'm living the dream, Like I'm getting paid for creative work, I'm working on stuff. If I audition for projects, I don't know. I ride a horse like that that should be more people's vibes.

Yeah, he kind of makes me want to get into meditation. I've tried many times to meditate.

I don't think I can do it.

Yeah, you're right, but he but but Jeff, you made me want to try again.

So that's saying something.

I'll get high and go to yoga.

I'll get high and go watch a sunset.

Yeah, I will do whatever, but I'm not going to listen to meditation.

Do meditation. No, every I always fall asleep. I also don't believe it.

I mean, I'm sure people could get to a meditative state, Like just because I can't experience it doesn't make it not real.

But like, I don't believe.

It for you, No, I don't believe people are I think they're pretending. I think it's like when people talk in tongues or like they think they're like, oh Jesus, talk to me.

I don't believe it.

That's so funny because my husband, who grew up in a church where people speak in tongues like, loves meditation and says it really chills them out and really like he says, it really works for him. But then of course he stopped doing it. For like a while and has to always rediscover it. I feel like that's everybody's journey with meditation. It's the best thing ever that you forget about doing for months at a time, and then you have to keep rediscovering it.

The only people that I know that do it regularly are our friends Sam and Eric, and I've stayed with them before, and I would ruin Eric's meditation every time.

I would just bust into his office without.

Knocking, and he'd be like, I'm meditating, Like I would just know.

You're You Know what's funny is I had a boss. I had a like a like an executive boss. I was his assistant for a while in New York, and he would always go, I'm going to be meditating, and he was napping. He was always just napping, Like he was on the couch in his office, closing his eyes and going to sleep. And I was like, you can call it meditating, but you are taking a full.

Nap, which is closer to God than anything I've ever exp A nap.

Yeah, nap over anything. I can only do shorty naps. I can't do those long naps. They make me feel crazy. But let's get into our post mortem, we can talk about a napping in our post mortem these Unfortunately, the children in this episode were not napping.

They were dead, And this was such a tough episode to watch.

But I think that when you experience something, what we learned, as we always learn and what we always tell people, is like, when you experience something traumatic, it's okay to go to get help, It's okay to talk to somebody stabler. So that's like always a lesson. I feel like we pull from this show. It's like, oh, yeah, I did see something pretty fucked up. Maybe I'll go talk to someone and try to process that instead of burying it deep and in the world.

When someone's acting a fool, instead of right away judging them, maybe take a moment and go maybe they were in an incest vampire cult and escaped, and maybe we should be nicer. Yes, I just think more people around us constantly are going through violent traumas that we can't even imagine, and that we are just so mean. And I'm including myself and including most criminals, I mean almost every criminal.

I feel like they traumatic.

Past because I'm someone that's not always patient with others, and it's like a reminder to be like, oh, yeah, you just don't know what people have been through.

Yeah, and escaped and then yeah, listen to Benson.

Or to the women that were like the kids will be harmed, please help them, and the cops go, we'll be fine. It's like, yeah, I don't even know. Listen to mothers.

I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know if that's the lesson, but it's like I guess with police or you just never know what the right decision is, you know.

Yeah, And I think if you're a shady bank guy who's helping a cult leader in buzzle money and you want to take a lady out for a nice vacation, it's not going to be Tampa. Dog, that's not the place. That's not the place. It's not Tampa. Let's go Miami. Let mean, let's avoid Florida right now. But you know, somewhere I don't know a little bit more. What's a good romantic whisk away for the weekend? Place Santa Barbara.

I don't know any anywhere it can be romantic, including Tampa. Yeah, the Baxtrey boy they're from there. I would go visit all their houses.

So romantic. Oh my god, is this AJ's house? Whit Wait, is that a Backstreet Boy? Yeah? Okay, I thought maybe I did an instinct by accident.

Wait, Lisa, I can't believe I've never told you this, because I think this is a pretty funny thing about me.

When I was the summer between my junior and senior year in college, I went I lived in Boston. I took a year off camp. I decided to go to Boston, and I wanted to get an internship to like, I don't know, help me get a job or something after college.

I had no idea what I was doing.

I ended up getting a internship at the Boston Sports Museum. I have no fucking idea. I applied too late. There were no internships that left. It was terrible. But they also had concerts, and so I was like, okay, like the Boston Sports Museum like had con It was because it was part of a stadium, so there would be concerts there, and I was like, all right, at least I'll get to see some cool concerts. The Backstreet Boys canceled their concert because AJ got one into rehab, and

Well, because I was about to say it's weird you could you didn't suck up any sports information from interning at the Boston Sports Museum.

But now I understand you quick. It lasted one week.

No, waitressing's way more fun than an internship. Yeah, it was much more fun.

I thought I needed it to like pad my resume or whatever because I was going out into.

The cruel, cold world a year later. But look look what happened. I'm fine. I do comedy. Well.

I think another lesson that I learned in terms of acting is like Jeff had no idea he was playing a bad guy. Yeah, like to really get into that and be like, no, I'm helping everybody Like that is a That's something I don't know what it is, but just something to think about if I ever get a role as a killer.

I also find it wild how many people we interview that say that they don't watch themselves. I feel like I would watch my thing and like like analyze it and be like obsessed with watching it.

But maybe that's just because I have a nurse iistic.

Personality watching it. I mean, we watched The King of Staten Island together. I loved watched it since. But that was really fun and exciting and it was a small part. But if I was like getting assaulted and crying on the stand, that might be more difficult to watch, right to watch over? Yeah, watch many times.

But also I'm sure your friends text you and are like your episodes on or whatever because SVU is constantly running on twelve different channels.

Yeah, but it's cool and it's and it's interesting to know that like someone that we of course assumed just got an in was like auditioning.

Yeah, yeah, totally, never be back out, never be too proud to audition, and that he was.

You know, went to the Richard Ramirez. I mean, is this that postmortam just how much we're in love with Jeff and we'll do any kind of he could be a cult leader.

I think we're watch Jeff as he could be a nice guy cult leader. He's like a good he's he's definitely has like a great like and magnetic personality, but not in a way that tells you to like, you know, never bathe and live without electricity for eight years.

Okay, let's move on.

Speaking of Cults for this week's what would Sister Peg Do, which is our weekly segment where we point you to an organization or an article or some kind of resource that can help you get more information on the subjects we touched on in today's episode. This week, we wanted

And next week's episode join us as we will be talking about Dissonant Voices Season fifteen, episode seven, So watch it on Hulu, p talk and anywhere any streaming service in the country that you're in, you know what I mean, or a fire stick I hear that's a thing. Yeah, hit us up, message us.

Thanks for listening.

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