Cage w/ Marlyne Barrett

Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

These are our stories done done.

Hello, Wow, that sounded like we were singing.

Hi.

Welcome to That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast.

I'm one of your hosts, Kara Klink and I'm Liza Traeger.

We talk SVU true crime and you know, sometimes we have guests, sometimes we don't.

But a constant is we do gab up top. We catch up. What's going on? Bitch? What's that? Bitch?

What's your whole deal?

Not too much.

I'm you know, just dealing with Uh, I'm just doing life stuff. I guess what am I doing? What is happening? An explosive start. Yeah, well, you know, I never watch anything because I never have time, so like I'm always like, yeah, it's on my list, on my list. I did watch this interesting documentary sort of true crime film on HBO Max called They called him mostly harmless.

Have you heard of it?

No?

I have not.

So my friend Emily recommended it to my text threat and was like, it's a really good look at sort of Internet culture in a lot of ways around true crime, and it's basically, without giving anything away, it's like, this guy was found on the Appalachian Trail in a tent.

He was skin and bones. He was dead.

He was skin and bones. There was food in his tent, there was money in his tent. He was not like an indigent person, and no one could identify him, no idea on him. No one had reported him missing that they could find, and they could not find out.

Who he was.

And for two years, these internet sleuth groups like worked to identify him. And it's like about the groups and also what happens when they identify him.

It was really interesting.

Okay, well because the title makes it seem like he's harmful.

I'm not going to say anything. So I didn't even really know this. On the Appalachian Trail, when you hike it and maybe other big trails in the US, you get trail names, so people could call you, you know, like Susiq or whatever. Like people just have trail names. So this guy's trail name was mostly Harmless, which is also the name of a book in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series.

So like when I told Jared what it was called.

He goes, well, I know where that name is from, obviously, because he's like a door who reads. So the name is interesting that that's his name. But I don't want to give anything else away.

No, don't give anything away. I do want to watch it. I'm very intrigued, and I'm kind of Bravo's been disappointing. Is that what I say? I mean, I'm in the Summerhouse. I'll always watch watch what happens, but like, I'm over Potomac right now.

I'm so bored.

Below Deck I'm not interested in, and vander Pump I'm not that into. I must watch this recent one because Sheena is like so jealous of Arianna and I kind of want to watch her talking about Dancing with the Stars, but that's already three nights that are I'm not interested in.

It's kind of.

Wild, and everyone online keeps talking about how we're headed into a Bravo desert like this coming spring, we've got Dubai premiering, and there's just like not a lot else.

Maybe Jersey, but yeah, right now, it's just like Summerhouse. And then once the reunions of Beverly Hills and Miami and like, what.

The fuck Bravo Desert Baby, I don't know what to do.

We have drag race. I want to start succession. But also I'm kind of like like, I've just been busier in New York. There's just so much to do. I have been watching less here. Yeah, but yeah, I don't know. I don't know on YouTube. I mean, there's a New Heights podcast that I obviously have to do. Jason Kelcey retired. Yeah, of course I thought about you. Obviously I heard and I listen. You know, I'm touched.

I like it.

I'm crying to forty minute speech. I don't think so, I don't think so. Where did he give a forty minute speech? That was his press conference for announcing his retirement. Was a forty minute speech?

Wow?

And then I Arsley, what up? Arsley? Our listener? I think it was her.

I'm pretty sure she wrote I love Jason Kelcey because when he cries, he won't use a tissue. He wipes his tat it was tears with a rag. I just love that he uses a rag like me too. Yo, It's like it's so funny, but he's you know, it's he's emotional and he is very like eloquent, like he is good at speaking. But forty minutes you it couldn't be me. I wasn't watching. I watched a little tears,

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it's a bad thing, babe. Yeah, came over to our table with meat Brick and uh we got to but I was sauced, so I really have no more details. She was in front of me. Casey Musgraves was next to me. You know who else I met. But I wasn't as intimidated by him as I was with Gina Gershan So I straight up went, I know you, little boy, like I didn't even there was no worry.

He's a child.

He's in the wet, hot American Summer reboots Skyler Gazondo. Oh born in nineteen ninety six. I'm not treating him like a man.

Wait, but he's in Righteous Gemstones. Yes, that's what Julie. She goes.

I love Righteous Empsones, can't wait for to come back. But I know him from BookSmart the most. And he's a twenty seven year old person. And you said, I know you, little boy. Oh but I definitely like, I wasn't intimidated by him. He seems like a child to me. He's very youthful looking, like, yes, he doesn't look twenty seven at all. You know, he's playing younger parts. He's playing high school parts. He is, for sure, and he's very good. He's very good in Righteous Jumpstones. He was

Was very excited. But he was really friendly and nice. Oh and he was in Licorice Pizza. I remember that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I just tried to watch that. It really well.

You didn't even tell me. Did you get to meet Casey or no? No, But I regret it because we did get to watch her sing. We watched her sing the second song, and it felt amazing and just being in the hallways backstage, it is very like theater camp vibes, you know what I mean, It is like kind of thrilling. But at the party, she was standing right next to us, and I do wish, I just want you were awesome, you know, I do, But I was. I was pretty plaster because then I was like, Julia, what was I

I didn't follow through.

But five am party, you know, got to do a little bodega run.

This is Saturday Night Live in case you don't know what Lisa is referring to.

It was at the program of Saturday Night Live.

Yeah, just getting sauced as everyone's working and getting makeup, just me and my bestie get hammered. It was really fun to just like party and stay out all night because I do love what is at dusk?

Dawn? I like Dawn. You like Dawn? Yeah?

I love don Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the sun's not fully out.

I like that.

On Sunday morning when I wake up, I always know I'm getting like Dawn Cab video in my stories from Lisa.

That is it.

So that's my name drop, I guess for the week. You know some legends all around.

Well, that's great. I'm glad you had a fun time. I don't really have much else to report.

I also like I do treat anytime I get a peek of the Chrysler building, I do act like it's truly a SuperM like I act like King Kong is on it. But every time I see it, I'm like, oh, look at you turn it out and then so that's wow.

The Chrysler building has like no I would say maybe like, oh that's nothing for you, doesn't really do anything for me.

Well, did you watch Season one Project Runway?

Yeah, Jay the winner, he made a dress inspired by the Chrysler building.

Yes, you remember it.

I remember somebody making a dress inspired by the Chrysler building.

It was him, and that dress was so beautiful, and I remember being so into it that it was just like this thing.

Implanted in my brain.

And I do think the lights and everything are really pretty, like the Circle, he top, what is it art deco?

But that is where it started. I would say to.

Be interesting project runway Okay, okay, because I don't think that. I mean, the Empire State Building is ultimately kind of ugly. I do like seeing thirty Rock because I worked there and I loved the show, and you know, everything about thirty Rock is like pretty hot to me. But it's not as recognizable from like a bird's eye as like.

You know, the Chrysler Building.

No, but you know what, I do love and they built a second one on driving like to and from Brooklyn, like the freeway parts.

I don't know.

The stained glass water towers, those are like my favorite things to see. Those really make me happy.

You have a tattoo of it, right, I just have a random water tower?

But yeah, oh okay, it would have been crazy.

I didn't want to sit there for all those colored boxes and the whole fun is the stained glass of it all. And it's just like I didn't really I didn't really see it.

Yeah.

My other friend has a stained glass tattoo of like a lamp, and I think I'm merging your two tattoos in my mind. Yeah, but I'm curious. I would like to see that. Yeah, it's like a childhood lamp or something. I'll have her send me a picture. All right, we got to get started because we have like a jumbo episode for you today.

I just wanted to shout out.

You know, we've got our merch shop live at that's messed uplive dot com.

There's a link.

To shop, and we've got a few of the college sweatshirts left. We do have new do you have children detective, the t shirt, the mug, the tote, as well as a few of the purple sweatshirts. We got the beanie, the fanny pack. Guys, Lisa and I both use this fucking fanny pack constantly. We've got more of them left.

I mean, I'm wearing our crop sweatshirt right now. I only wear our merchant Really, I need help. I need help. And today when I took a walk, I wore the other purple sweatshirt. Yeah, but also thank you for reminding me. I am on the road. So this weekend I will be in Philadelphia. Hello, Jason Kelce, come on by, and then I'm in Chicago, Nashville. Lots of fun coming up, so please come see me. Glitter cheese.

Yeah, if you go to That's messed Up live dot com. Also you can go to Lisa. The link that says Lisa's website takes you to all of her road stuff. And then, real quick, before we get started, I wanted to give a shout out to our listener, Lindsey. Your sister in law, Natalie told us that you have some tough medical stuff going on right now, and we just wanted to send you lots of love and strength and support and thank you for listening to our pod and being so awesome.

And yeah, that's that. On that, let's get started.

We have a great episode today. All right, today it's raining where I am, it's dark, it's glooming. So we're doing cage. Okay, we're doing season eight, episode eight. This baby is from two thousand and six. This takes us to a little period we call the Beck era. This is the Danny Beck era. This is there is no Benson in this episode.

I think this is our first Danny back episode. I don't think I'm a mistaken. This is it like we have avoided Danny Beck And the thing is Connie and Nielsen is beloved, like this is no you know, like no shade towards Connie, but like Bec's I don't know who's worst, Becker Chester Lake. I don't know if I've actually come to terms with that yet, have you No?

But I will say I think I hated her so much at the time because whether or not you like Ship Benson and Stabler, she's not Olivia, Like you just didn't want her there, like when that was happening, and so I remember really not liking her and not liking her, but rewatching this episode for today, I was like, she's not that bad, and what's crazy She's only.

In six episodes. I know, I thought she was in like two seasons.

The way we hate on her and the way she's like left a mark, I mean, you gotta give it to her.

Like six episodes.

She caused a lot of hate and a lot of people have a lot to say about her.

Also, I don't think that there would have been such a visceral hey if like Stabler didn't want to fuck her bones, you know what I mean? Yeah, And that him and Kathy were on a break right as Olivia leaves, so now he's gonna hook up with some bits, you know what I mean?

Like right exactly, like they were toying with us. I'm not a shipper, yeah at all. I think Olivia deserves way better than Elliott. But it was still just like, ugh, come on, because by season eight. If they fucked in season eight, that would have been fine. Yeah, I wouldn't have had the hate for him. And I also didn't have that perspective exactly in two thousand and six, I was like, maybe I would watch it, you know, like I was like, I was fine with it. Now I

But also if they did, it would have ruined the job, like it would have ruined Yeah. Their goal is solving crimes, and I feel them being in love ruined it. That's why I am glad they waited for Caresian Rollins for so long.

And it's a lawyer cop situation.

Yeah.

And now she's even in the you know, professor world, so it's like, yes, you know, I feel like being married on the job partners is a little match.

And now that you say that, I'm wondering if maybe they created Beck to show people see how this won't work, Like you see how this is too complicated, like it won't.

Work oo, Neil Bear, maybe you know Ricky Tricky, okay, to show us out and work. Yeah, because even in the lou Diamond Phillips, yes, a former guest, you know, what's the guy's named Vincent or whatever.

But in that you know.

Like Gaetano, Yeah, Gaetana, like there's a hesitation because they have a relationship and because of it, a boy dies.

So it's like if you're married, that's like so much right. Yeah. So anyway, that's our dissertation.

That's our dissertation on whether you know love can work at work in the law enforcement business. This episode is it star studded. It's dark, and it's it's a good one. So let's start off. The cold open is a van driving through the city at night, and it is the kind of van that I used to see in New York City all the time and go, there's a kidnap child in there. Like every time I see these like dirty windowless vans, I'm like, oh God, who's in there?

No, because it's suspicious because if you see one with a ton of windows and seats, you go, that's a church. Yeah, that's a volleyball team. Yeah, that's a summer camp field trip. That's like whatever. If there's windows, and if it's a truck, like there's other there's a minivan, like that is a suspicious car and you're getting it on purpose? Yeah, like you can't have anyone looking into that, and you need all that space for what for what?

Well, like the guy in this episode rents it out for like probably moving purposes and shit, because like I don't know, you don't want to put like furniture or tools into a van that's gonna have windows that where they could smash.

I guess I'm Devil's advocating.

I don't know, bullshit, No, no, fuck that for what? You would get a U haul for what? Yeah, you would get a truck. There's no way, yeah yeah, and yeah it is wild. It's like no window, I don't know, like even a couple back windows. Like I just don't like when it's like full white doors, full white sides.

I don't like it. You know what you're getting into.

If you're getting one of those cars that look like a cop car, you know what you're doing to people. If you're getting a Lamborghini, you know what you're portraying to people, Like you are getting a car for a reason. Yeah, if you have a truck, you're a hic or you're a carpenter, like there are connotations to cars.

Yeah.

And you know, if you're getting a windowless, white long van, we think there's a mattress and a woman tied up in it.

That's it. Yeah.

And famously, my dad drove a Dodge Ram van four years that he used for his furniture business but would also pick us up in it, and sometimes the seats weren't in it and he was like, just lean your back against my seat.

We're fine, We're only going four miles, you know.

So that might have been your life, but it was always super cool to have behind all the like Mercedes and BMW's at my school for my dad to roll up in like a bent up Ram van color red. Okay, so my suspicions confirmed in this episode because two little kids are in this fucking van and there's a little boy who's being quiet.

And we're right, yeah at this point.

And then a little girl who is Elle Fanning, who is singing some kind of like religious.

Song you know about you know, waiting in the waters or something like that.

And then Elle Fanning is if You've been living under a rock or something. She is the younger sister of Dakota, both child actors. She got into the game playing the younger version of her sister. She's twenty five years old and has sixty five credits, So this girl works, works, works, Okay, she's eight years old in this episode and it's like her fifteenth credit. Her big things that she's in are like The Great and The Girl from Plainville. Those are

And I saw her walking down the street in Soho with other women from her family, not Dakota.

I would have said that I.

Think that mother was a professional tennis player. When I did a quick Wikipedia, it looked like a.

Mom aunt Grandma Elle like it looked cute. It was around the holidays. They were walking to go into mu Meu.

A multi generational brunch and shopping trump. I love that, Yeah, love it. But I wonder if she pays at Mumu or not. Oh yeah, because she's like a product girlie, right, she's their girl.

Yeah.

Does she just point or is she buying? I wonder. I don't think she's buying.

Maybe she goes into look and then she tells her rep like these I want these things. Have them sent to my house, because I also doubt she's like wandering around.

With bad it was Christmas maybe they know, yeah, wandering around.

Yeah.

Anyway, she's a little cutie and she's singing to the Lord in the back of this van and the driver is like, come on, Mark, I can't hear you singing the sweet Songs of Jesus and the kid the boy glares at him and does not join in. El Fanning has just about had it as well. She's like, I'm tired, and the guy's like cape singing. She's like, but my

So it's terrifying.

I don't think anybody's like, that's not my biggest fear, but being in a car, you know, that goes underwater.

Is one of my biggest fears. In fact, my friend.

Emily got us all the special tool that you can use to crack the window of your windshield. She got them forth for like Christmas or some random thing of like a year ago, and I have it in my car. It's like just this little thing that will like smash the window for you if your car goes underwater.

So incredible. I would get one of those. Yeah, No, it is.

Definitely a fear, but I was thinking, the only people that might enjoy it if it's like if you want to be spy, like if you want to be Jason Borne. Yeah, like Jason Bourne's probably like I'll try that, you know, Houdini.

Yeah, every time we see it in a movie, I'm like, roll your window down really quick, like roll your window down really quick, swim out, like, But.

It is something I think about all the time.

Yet I love bridges and think they're beautiful, and more terrified of tunnels because of a Celevester Stallone movie.

I believe, Oh yeah, yeah, tunnels are scary.

So they're in the water getting through this.

No we're not.

We're like not even to the credits. We're not even remotely to the credits. So this is like v I do have to get to a Taylor Swift soul cycle, so yeah, we gotta kicking up the pace. So this is so terrifying because the kids are screaming, and this is where we notice that they are handcuffed into the van. They are there's like a bar in front of them, they're handcuffed to it, and we hear their screams as the van slowly sinks into the water, and I just

Is Shader.

Stabler shows up in his wrap around Oakley sunglasses and asks Munch what's going on and the passengers, he says, got out, but no sign of the driver, and it's like, okay, thank god, the kids got out somehow. So Stabler's like, okay, why is this ours? And Munch is like, look a little closer, and then brings them over to Mark and el Fanning, who are in the back of a cop

Territory.

Iced Tea is now back at the van and shows Stabler the source of the marks. They were obviously the handcuffs were hanging off the bars. These kids were obviously handcuffed. The driver must have freed them. And o'holleran is like in the van and he's like, yeah, there were two people, a woman with one shoe and a driver with no hair. He's got like a two pay and a shoe, so it's very it's very three stooges in this van right now.

Also, did you call him?

Oh?

Hollerin?

Did I?

Oh? My god, for holler O'Halleran is what I meant to say. But thank you.

Stabler's like, we got to get those kids to talk, and munch goes looks like somebody already has camera pans over to find Danny Beck holding el Fanning.

They're just chatting the day away.

She's like, you know, all of a sudden, El Fanning is doesn't even care a lick about that ligature mark on her wrist.

She has a new best friend.

And remember they really zoom into Stabler's face when he sees Beck, and you're like, and I remember that this is the episode right after Underbelly, which is the episode where Beck and Stabler have their little kiss moment. So just to give you some background since we have not covered Underbelly yet.

And then we're to the credits.

So top of act one, the gang is downloading Daddy Craigan on what's going on. We find out El Fanning's name is Eden. I will start calling her that instead of el Fanning, we know the boy is Mark, the van was registered to Frank hovis anything on Cinderella referring to the lost shoe, And then sit Finn used as a slur to suggest that maybe Frank dresses is a woman on occasion one of these where the show doesn't hold.

Up, but you know they've changed.

But then Munch comes in with a toll booth photo of the driver and the woman riding shotgun, and Craigan goes, get these faces on the news and let's go talk to the kids about it. So now Danny is in the Little show Me Where the Bad Man Touched You play room that they have on SVU where usually we see you know, Benson or Stabler or somebody talking to a little kid, And Danny's talking to Eden and she's like, yeah,

Like immediately?

Eat?

It is like I'm obsessed with you.

It's it's giving me a lot of Hayden Pantier in the episode Abuse, how she's obsessed with Benson immediately and like there's a lot of you know, attachment immediately. And Danny's like, oh, I don't think it's so girl, and Eden cuts to the chase, like why you don't like me? And then Danny gives this like fakey, of course I like you, but like she's not Olivia Benson with this, uh, it's it seems a little harder for her. Sabler is

I don't know.

Sabler says sure, and Craigan's like, oh, so you hate Olivia. I never want to see her again. And Stabler's like, since one is that up to me? Like, you know, partner whatever, I don't know. He's like acting like too cool, like he has no feelings about it. Munch and Finn are trying to track down the van driver, Frank, and they're talking to Frank's mom. She hasn't seen that dead beat and yeas, and she doesn't give a shit about him,

She doesn't want the neighbors in her house.

So Finn pops in with some men's that he found on the clothes line old school, and she goes, oh.

They must have fallen from a plane going into JFK.

I mean, this woman has a full excuse for everything, and I really like her as a side character. They bust into the house because they're like they do some kind of shady police work. They're like, did I just hear somebody inside? Don't worry, man will protect you. They bust into the house, they open the closet and this sad man is in the closet hiding with cleaning supplies and the mom.

Goes, how did he get in there. Ye, she's amazing. She's so good.

Frank goes give it up Ma Like, he's like, she is winning an oscar And he's like the jig is up. And he tells the cops, I save those kids. I uncuff them, But I'm not the one that cuffed them in the first place. Alma did that. She said if she didn't, the kids would try to jump out. Alma got out of the van, okay, but it seems like didn't care about saving the kids. And he has no connection to these kids. He rents out his van. Alma

We find out Almah's last name is Cordoza.

But this guy has no address because she just kept saying I'll tell you when we get close, and they unfortunately hit the river before they got closed. And there's no record of Eden or Mark anywhere in the Albany area apparently, like no missing persons, school records or anything like that. So Danny and Cragan joined Stabler to look through the fish bowl at Mark's like non convo with Huang, like the kid won't make eye contact, like Kuwang is really trying hard. He's like trying to do a game.

Draw the people you live with?

Maybe a pet?

And Mark like grabs the pen and just scribbles it out furiously. He is not into these psychological games. Then Mark says shut up, and he does have an accent, so you know, Stabler had mentioned that, like, you know, he might not speak English, but he obviously no shut up.

And then he attacks Huong.

He goes Adam, knocks him back onto the floor from his chair and just keeps telling him to shut up over and over again. Beck and Stabler rush in and if you've been to our live shows. You've seen this scene. It's in a compilation I made of scenes where Elliott Stabler gets his ass beat. They pull Mark off of Huang and Beck suddenly knows immediately that this kid speaks French, and she starts telling him to calm down in French.

Oh my god, this is off topic, but it reminded me. You said a nod to the live shows. I was thinking, so we have performed in Salt Lake City. We are fascinated with Mormons. I was doing stand up in Phoenix and there was a table of modern contemporary progressive Mormons, but all in those little pajamas underneath. Wait, you can see those No, of course, I asked them they were wearing the garments. They were wearing the garments, but I keep forgetting. Yeah, they're called garments. I like, you guys

Yeah. Wow.

I wonder if the fashionable white hat lady from our Salt Lake show where it was wearing the pajamas.

I doubt it, no, because she was wearing like skin tight pants.

Yeah, her like tits were out. Yeah, she looks great.

They were a horny Mormon, yes, yes, but going on missions, it is like the Lisa Barlow effect.

Maybe.

I asked them if they think Lisa Barlow is considered Mormon, and they said, yes, it's a spectrum.

Okay, I didn't even I never heard the spectrum thing before. That's usually not how a lot of religions act, you know.

Well, no, they're contemporary. They're coming to see us.

Yeah, okay, so I think we just think everyone that listens to us is like godless or something.

But the Mormons are here.

Yeah, they're here. Thank you for being here.

Okay.

So Danny's telling him like call metois or whatever in French, and Mark does the exact op. He grabs Huang's pen off the table and stabs Stabler with it right in the chest, Like this kid is strong, Stabler's ripped. He just like breaks skin, stabs him puncture wound right there.

But anyway, and you're a professional.

Bit yes, Like I can't believe she didn't know that, And she's like, are you gonna faint on me? And Stabler looks all woozy and shit. So in the next scene, Huang is helping to like clean Stabler's wound or something, and Kragan's like, what's what this kid? And Huang's like, immediately, won takes zero time to think about it. He goes, I think it's reactive attachment disorder. Children deprived of love and affection, particularly as infants, have trouble connecting with people.

And I did look it up.

The Mayo Clinic defines reactive attachment disorder as a rare but serious condition in which an infant or young child doesn't establish healthy attachments with parents or caregivers. And we did talk about this in the Born Psycho about episode a little bit, and we'll talk about it a little

That's like, what's all behind it?

I feel like, is just like kids needing a lot of connection right of the wombs.

So the gang thinks maybe.

The kids were getting returned to their adoption agency from their adoptive parents, and that's like why they were in this van with this Almah.

They need to find Alma.

Much found a cab that picked up a woman at four am near the river and took her to Brooklyn.

I mean was she's soaking wet with one shoe. Also, I like that, how did you find out?

Munch and Finn are now knocking on the door to the address where she was dropped off, but no one is answering. Finn goes around kind of like the side of the house and sees like this little sliver of glass with like a sad stick figure, like a stick figure with a sad face on it, a frownie face, And for him, he's like, fuck, there's kids in there. So he busts down the door with literally no effort.

So where them kids at?

You know?

So that's the end of act one. Act two.

Finn tells Kragan, it looks like dozens of kids have been living here based on fingerprints and all this other stuff.

Probably hair samples or something. Ohal's there.

He finds a tape with the letters R R B handwritten on it and a date from four days prior, but it's been smashed. It's like a cassette tape and it's been smashed, and Craigan's like, see if we can clean it up. I want you guys to go canvas. Let's find out who pays the bills on this place. And where the hell is Beck? Everyone keeps asking where's Beck?

Where's Beck?

Cuts it back at the hospital with Stabler. Guess she has her priorities. He's just buttoning up his shirt so we can get a little bit of the chest, you know, and he's waiting for his tet and a shot, and she's just like really complimenting him, like I'm really impressed you kept your cool with this pen stabbing thing. And he's like, it's just adrenaline, babe, and she's like, still it must have hurt. I couldn't have stayed that calm.

We liked her?

Yeah, but also they they haven't discussed this, I know, but they're separated, right I know, but like, yeah, I know she I wouldn't tell Kathleen like that's a big thing.

Yeah. But he's like, he's like, she's with the Feds.

Because if you will remember Infiltrated was two episodes ago, and that is where Live goes into her persephone Jones, you know, undercover persona with the Eco Terrorism Group.

Very important work.

Okay, So Beck takes this familiar invasion as an opportunity to bounce. She's like, I gotta get out of here. Kathleen is shading her dad for getting stabbed by a kid. She's like, Dad, you're such a loser. And Beck gets one last look at Taifler with his family through the blinds on her way out. Now, Beck is at the facility where Eden is staying. She's just doing the rounds of the hospitals. Eden is asleep, passed out. There's a CPS worker there named Lauren White. She's played by Linda Powell.

This CPS worker.

She tells Beck that Mark is at a psych facility and unfortunately had to be medicated. Beck is like, wow, well, no one's going to take Mark now once they find out that he stabbed a cop with a pen. And then the two ladies chat about how easy it is for kids to get swallowed up by the system. Families move fast, bureaucracies don't. And then Beck gets a call and it's Craign. So now she's back at the squad

CSU is finishing up. What the fuck does she think she is? I know?

Sorry spoiler alert, the last you're going to see it, Beck, So Craigan tells her we found out the house is owned by the Ignacious Petty adoption agency Munch and Finn. We'll talk to him tomorrow, the guy that runs the agency. You and Stabler hit up ACS and find out if they have any scoop on the sky. And she's like, I'll go now, and Craigan's like, actually, bitch, you're gonna go home and take a nap, and she does not listen.

Again.

We cut to her back at CPS, just fucking bitch, slapping Craigan right in his face. And she walks in and Lauren White is still there and she's like, it's after midnight and she goes, what's the tea on Ignacious Petty? Besides the fact that he sounds like a little boarding school villain in an old British book about mischief or something, and Lauren tells Danny that ACS terminated their contract with Petty a year ago, like we used to work with him. We cut his contract a year ago. He was one

And we like, look at his big wall. He's got a picture of her right there.

Oh good. It's like, you're such an idiot, bro. Yeah, I love this moment.

Yeah.

So Munch threatens to go through the records and this guy's like, uh, well, my records are confidential.

You know what what Ramona Singer on Real Hostways in New York, they showed a video over not inviting Sonya to her birthday, like telling a woman like, don't invite Sonya and then they're like, why did you do that? And she denied it at the reunion, even though they just watched a clip of her doing it. Yeah, so I was about to say, it's like these moments where you can't deny the evidence. It's like, what what, It's like a cartoon moment, But then I remember, no, Ramona,

I think if you're a liar, also, like a habitual liar, you just convince yourself of your own lives very quickly. So you're like, no, no, I don't know her, like and they're like oh yeah. Like so he's a full liar, this man and doesn't seem like a good guy. And uh, Munch is like, we're going to go through your records and he's like, my records are confidential. Munch goes, we'll get a subpoenut he's like, lol, my lawyers will crush you.

Yeah, and then the criminal thinks they've really won. I mean, this is a great episode.

It's like, if you're hiding something and the cops come to you, do not call the person immediately. That's like you're in cahootswith like because they're tapping your phone.

Yeah, because this is a sad episode because it's like, you know, the kids in bloody handcuffs, but you know, in a van, and obviously things are gonna get worse. But a lot of great moments, a lot of great moments.

The two pey Like, I'm really Cage.

It's a good one. It's a really good one. Cage who knew?

No.

I avoid watching it because it's Danny Beck. Like I have seen the Danny Beck episodes, probably the least.

Yeah, I definitely have seen them all a couple of times.

Of course I'll skip over if it's possible.

So it turns out what he called was the Lydia Motel, which we've heard of before. It's like it's supposed to just be kind of like a CD hotel, and there's been other like operations that have gone down there with this s view and they all head over there, Munch and Fin find all in a hotel room there.

They do the whole housekeeping.

Like we're here with room service, and in interrogation they've got Almah now and she's explaining that she was bringing the kids back from Albany because their adoptive parents didn't want them anymore. So it's exactly what they suspected. Mark was adopted from Haiti and Eden from Ohio. She was going to leave them in Brooklyn until they found them another home, but she said the accident was Frank's fault.

She clearly ran because she knew something she's doing is shady.

So on the other side of the glass, Stabler's like, all right, let's shut this guy down, and Beca's like sad that these kids are going to go to foster care, and She's like, I just can't walk away from this. So then Craigan's like, good, get your ass back to work. That tape that O'Halloran found, we've got it. It's been resurrected. It's back. We're gonna go listen to it. So we're in O'Halloran's little, you know, his little lab, and the tape was mostly smashed, but he was able to clean

It's like you you don't love to hear it.

And the woman on the tape is like, trust us, baby, and they call her Rose, and she says she can't breathe and she's gasping, and it sounds like a therapy session.

Like Stable immediately knows what it is. It sounds like rebirthing.

He's like, yeah, they wrap you up and simulate your berth again, like you know, and Beck goes, who cares? What happened to this girl? And then there's a second part to the tape where they realize Rose is it moving like it's it's the end, closer to the end of the tape, and they're like, okay, Rose, get up, honey, and she's not moving and they notice she's thrown up and she won't wake up, and it's like, fuck, they've killed this girl and they've inadvertently like made a tape

It's so sad.

Melinda puts the sheet back over and she goes, no, wait, I want to look. And so elde Fanning is so good in this episode, Like she's eight years old and she's really playing like you feel bad for her. She's obviously had trauma, but she's creepy, you know, she like wants to look at her dead sister while she talks, you know. So then they're asking her more questions and she's just kind of staring at the screen of her dead sister and she's like, I.

Don't remember when I last saw her.

But she lived in a big house in the country with Rita and Bud, and this is like the first we've heard of Rita and Bud. She lived there too, but I was very bad and I had to be sent away to Alma. Rosemary wasn't so bad, so they just put her in the cage. So what the fuck is happening? What are we talking about? Munch and Finn slap a picture of dead blue Rosemary in front of Almah and she's like, who's that. They're like, it's Rosemary, Eden's sister, and she goes, I wouldn't take Eden's word

I don't know Rosemary.

I only know Eden because they might not have been adopted together. Alma says she doesn't know Rita and Bud and then they play the recording of rose and she does not like hearing that recording and she's like, I don't know anything, and they're like, look, you're fucked.

We've got you on kidnapping.

You're going away for a while, and you think they're rough on child killers and men's prisons, women's prisons are way worse. So Finn offers a little quid pro quo, and Almah says, all right, listen, I don't know who this girl is, but I do know one of the voices on that tape, and it's a psychologist named doctor Reef. So now we cut to doctor Reef's office and they play him the tape and are like, yo, that's you, bro,

New York, near Albany, the Keepsie home of Snookie.

Yeah, I was just looking at the word Poughkeepsie and was like if you were like learning English as the second language. Poughkeepsie's gotta fuck you up? Like that is a whack ass word. It's like puff keep sot Like what it's such a weird word. But it's where Vassar is go Poughkeepsie. I've been there once, just to look at vasser Stabler and Beck take the old Ford Taurus on a road trip up to Poughkeepsie.

Well, and this guy, the guy doctor Reef, he is the dad and in her shoes.

Oh a blind spot for me? I don't I haven't seen that movie.

Way we got to watch in her shoes? I bet you I bet you're gonna cry. Oh, okay, I'll watch it.

I'll watch it.

I would love to maybe not maybe, but I think you're gonna cry.

Well, I love Tony Collette.

It's Tony Collette, right, Tony Collette, Cameron Diaz and brook Smith brook Smith and the guy who looks like the Scar Brothers.

Who isn't oh Mark fire scene, yeah, star studded.

I want to watch it. No, that's a total like weird, like why haven't I seen that movie?

And there's other guys in it that you would like, Hold on there's one other guy that I feel like you would like. Yeah, it's Charley McLain. I'm so glad I was right about that. Oh I love Shirley McLain. Hell yeah, Oh, we talked to a guy that was one of the bad guys.

Hold on, there's a bad guy. And in her Shoes there's not a bad guy.

Oh there is, but it's like just like a tiny, tiny little part. But we did have him on the podcast because I asked about it. It was a small part, but it was with Cameron Diaz. But Andy Powers, who we had on one of your favorite guests, Vulnerable, one of your favorite guys.

I did have a crush on him.

I did not, And he was oz and he humiliated himself in front of Marishka and she was okay with it.

Do you remember. Yeah, he was great, he was great. I loved it.

He was a great guess. But anyways, Inner Shoes is also like an amazing movie.

Yeah, we'll watch it. We'll watch it.

I don't even know how we spiraled this out of control because of that one man.

Because the guy that plays doctor Reef is I guess in that movie, so I'll recognize him when I see it. So Stabler and Beck take the old Ford tourists on a road trip up to Poughkeepsie and they pull up. The house looks really nice. There's kids playing outside, it's like a sunny day. There's a couple kids in wheelchairs, there's toys, like, it doesn't look like a sketchy farm where you know kids are being mistreated, which we've seen before on this show.

Yeah, I get.

I actually get all the farms that house children illegally mixed steps.

Sometimes I do too, I do too, Like when I got to this one, I go oh, I thought this one was gonna look bad, but it's actually like, looks really nice. And when we get there, Rita is none other than character actress Margot Martindale, a former neighbor of mine who I would see all over my neighborhood in New York City and it was always so thrilling.

I was always like, it's Margot Martindelle.

It's cool she lives in New York. She was always on the Upper Westide. I mean, so did Belzer. I used to see Belzer all the time you lived.

But Bellzer film's here, but Margo, yeah, on film sets often.

So it's cool that she lives in New York.

Yeah, yeah, I feel like she's like probably when she's not filming, she's theater though, right, she seems like a real theater lady to me, like that, like that's where her true love lies, you know. But Rita doesn't know the girls in the picture or about the Brooklyn apartment and is doing a huge like playing dumb game. Okay, so they're like, we're gonna look around, and she's like, well,

To show Eden.

It just takes you right back to two thousand and six and back at the squad. Munch is showing eat in the Picks and she points out where she used to sleep until she was sent away to Almah and they're like, and then what about Rosemary, word did she sleep And they're like, no, she didn't sleep in the house. She slept there, and they're like outside and then she goes, no in the barn. So then cut back to the farm. The music is swelling. Beck and Stabler are storming the barn.

His name is Joe. He's been in there for two days.

He said he was bad, but he doesn't want to get in troubles, so he doesn't even really want to talk to the detector.

Get out. And then right at that moment, Bud comes home and then he's.

Like, this is private property, and it's like, dude, the jig could not be more up. Like there's a boy in a cage. It's not private property anymore. Like it's a crime scene. And he's like, the kid's in the cage for his own good. And then they arrest his ass. Rita's like he did nothing wrong, and it's like, ma'am, come on. Stabler goes, hey, ladies, shut up and get

There was definitely a summer where those were a big.

Part of my life. Yeah, yeah, strawberritas. Yeah, the way they write it is really weird.

It's like straws one word, burr is one word, Rita's one word. It's really wild. But you know, I love sugary drinks, so those were right up my alley.

Bud reminds me of Hank Kazaria's character and Now and Then, which I think is another one of your blind spots.

Another one that's on the list.

God, it's like I just watched HBO, so I've seen like just one of the guys forty five times.

But then I've never seen some se Midal movies of the time period. Well, I've never even heard of just one of the guys. I've told you about it.

It's the one where the girl wants to go to a better high school, so she dresses as a guy.

Yeah, and then she like falls in love with her rest friend.

Okay, you talk about the cover she's holding the footballs over.

Yes, because the cover is the two volleyballs over her tits.

But but or like I'm trying to think, what's another like My Blue Heaven, or like all these movies I used to watch over and over and over again instead of being like, how about this new one?

Yeah, but I still do that to this day. I know it's like My Blue what not My Blue Heaven? Have you ever seen that?

No, I'm googling it.

Oh my god, Steve Martin, Rick moranis Joan Cusack. It's one of my favorite movies of all time. It's a Clank Family classic. We have to watch it. Oh my god, we have to watch Okay, you're watch Oh my god, you really come.

I love My Blue Heaven.

It's so silly and Carol Deborah Rush, Oh yeah, it's it's got a great cast.

Oh wow.

So a comedy about a government witness who gives Suburbia a culture shock.

Okay, Yeah, Basically Steve Martin plays this like ridiculous gangster type and they put him in witness protection like in the Burbs, and he's got to act like he's normal there and he can't do it. And it's really funny. I mean, I'm giggling at just the description. So Okay, bud Light Straberita is in interrogation and they are the parents of the year. They're like, we love our kids, we only put them in cages when nothing else worked.

Yeah, because the wheelchair is going to cause some additional damage flying down.

Yeah, And Rita said, you have to forgive Joey because he's mixed up. And so I don't know, I can't tell if this really happened or if the kid's been put up to the story.

I really don't know.

Now we're back to Straberita stablers like, you guys are just in a the money. You get eight thousand dollars a month from Social services in Albany, and Bud's like, we adopt handicapped children that no one else will touch, and he says that costs money. So he's, you know, saying the eight k a month is just to support which I would say eight k a month no matter where you live, to support nine to eleven children and each other that you know, that's not exactly. I don't

Stop the whole.

I don't know her, Mariah thing. It's not happening, we know, you know. And so like now Rita's ready to stop the charade. Then Bud says, there's no record of a girl named Rose living with us, and it's like, how is that true?

Either? Like I just want to know how.

I guess it's like what they were talking about with these bureaucracies and things move and these private adoptions can be sketchy, but like, how is their zero record of this girl living with them?

Like it's like did.

They destroy it after they killed her or did they never get it because they thought they might kill it? Like what why would you not have any record? And then Rita is now ready to stop the charade. She's like, everything we did we did out of love. And they're like, those are your voices on the tape, admit it. And then Bud's like, gimme a lawyer, So they lawyer up, Staybler and back walk out, and Craigan and Novak are

So now we're in court, and it looks.

Like Button Rita do know how to get away with murder because they hired fucking Viola Davis as their defense attorney. She is Donna Emmett and you know iconic defense attorney on the show. She's been in seven episodes in seasons four, six, eight, nine, and ten, So happy to see her. I'm also here to say I love the movie Widows.

Loved it.

I think Viola Davis is the powerhouse and I loved Widows. Not like it's her best work. It's just a fun one, you know, And I think people try to shit on it, and I'm here to say I love it.

So Doctor Reef is on the stand.

He is the psychologist that phoned into the you know, exorcism or whatever, the rebirthing, and he's explaining how he gave Butt and Rita advice on the rebirthing. So what went wrong? And he goes they were arrogant. They heard Rose crying for air and they believed it was working. And so Casey sits down. Now it's Viola's shot. She asks the doctor why he was helping them, and he

Viola asks the.

Doctor are you familiar with the work of doctor tront and he is, and she wants to play a video of doctor Tronik's work to the jury so they can understand the claim that the two adults could be threatened by a child.

I don't really get how that works here.

The judge does allow it, and the video is portraying a real thing. This is the still face experiment by an actual doctor named doctor Tronic. It's a real thing, and it shows a mother engaging with her baby, playing, talking to the baby. The baby is happy, and then the mother goes still. The mother just doesn't move, her face, goes still, does not interact with the baby or give any kind of lover affection or any reaction at all,

This reminds me of like a twenty twenty experiment, I know, a guy like getting real with John Sassel.

What was do you remember I loved twenty twenty?

Like they would always trying to do something on a two way mirror to show that, like a baby is.

Gonna eat the muffin or not?

Yeah yeah, yeah, like marshmallow experiments and shit with kids.

Yeah.

So I guess when they don't get a response from the parent, the baby is left feeling very alone, and eventually they pull back physically and then emotionally. I don't really see how showing this baby you don't there's actually like no proof that Rose grow up like that. There's no like, where's the proof that that's what led her to pull a knife on them twice? Like it just there's a lot of disjointedness in this episode. I feel with the plot no offense, Neil, if you're listening, we

Again, do we know which one?

No, her natural affections were burnt out, and then instinct becomes about survival. A lot of psychiatrists think these children are untreatable. The question is do you put her into an institution where she'll be medicated and catatonic, or do you try to bring her back to life? And that's what the rebirthing is supposed to do. So Casey gets her chance on redirect and she goes, so, okay, are we cool with it sitting on a kid till they

All good?

And he's like no, and then she's like Novak out. So she gets her little redirect, but it still doesn't look great. He doesn't look like a slam dunk against Butt and Rita. So Novak walks out with Beck and she's like, look, I really need you to use your relationship with Eden to get her to tell the truth about Butt and Rita. Like she's all we have. All these other kids are either lying or they are actually having a great time.

Who knows.

Maybe the really complacent kids who don't have behavior problems are not getting abused. Maybe that's true, but that doesn't mean anything in terms of their guilt. So Beck is now talking to Eden and she's like, you're going to have to tell the truth about Rita and Butt in court. And she's like, Okay, they put a hose in my mouth and turned it on until water came out of my nose. But that doesn't seem like we're trying to protect ourselves from your sociopathic behavior, you know, that seems

She thinks are going to kill her in her sleep. But no, they're bad people. Well, and you don't have to adopt all these kids they're foster Like, you don't have to, now, you know what I mean? You can you can get half of them, Yeah, if that's too many.

It's right, you know.

So did you see them hurt Rose?

She asks Eden, and Eden says no, I never really saw Rose because she was in the cage. And she's like, well, how did you know about the cage and she said because Rita showed it to me one time as a threat. And they were like, well, what did you do to get punished? And she said, I didn't finish my food. So it's like they're not even doing crazy shit, but you know, it's it's just so sad.

It's like, not finishing your food? What are we talking about?

So she's scared that butd and Rita will be in court.

She's like, they come here to visit the other kids and they give me mean looks, like they look like they want to kill me too, and Beca's like, I'll protect you, and she goes all right. Eden knows her f bargaining chip. She goes, I'll do it if I can stay with you, and Beck is like, girl, that's not gonna work out, and she's like please, please, please, Like she's like, but.

Just while I'm in court, just during my court stuff, can I come.

Live with you?

And I guess they just allow kids to go home with any cop if they're beautiful. And now we're at Beck's apartment and she's setting up a sofa bed for Eden. We're about to do a sleepover. Eden's like, do you have a husband? And She's like, oh, he died, and then she tucks her in. They have a cute little like tickling moment, tucks her in really tight, and it's like they do have a cute little dynamic these two. And I like to see this traumatized child have you know,

I never saw her again. Yeah, this was a great episode. I should stop avoiding watching it. I always just get so sad.

But I guess it is kind of like, like I guess, it's just like there's a lot of like whys in this episode, like yeah, if you have this sketchy lady, that'll just take the kids back to other adoption places, just do that. Like I don't know, it just felt like there was just a lot of holes in it of like the why to me, like I wasn't really understanding, but you.

Know, Gonsikos, that's why. Yeah. All right, well I have some bad news for you.

Two crimes that are very close to the episode. Okay, So, like I said, there are two crimes. The first one is about Candace Newmaker. Candace was ten years old when she died on April nineteenth, two thousand and This is one day after a therapy session at a clinic in Evergreen, Colorado. She was being treated for reactive detachment disorder aka the

Yeah, And we did, like, if you're wondering, like, why does this sound familiar? I touched on this briefly when we covered Born Psychopath, but Lisa has done more of a deep dive, so I'm interested to hear more.

Yeah, so hopefully not too much overlap. But so basically what happened to Candace was she was wrapped in a sheep to simulate a womb while four adults pushed up against her with pillows and all this shit, and this is the worst. Their hope was that she was going to emerge reborn to bond with her adoptive mother, Jean Newmaker. So her biological mother lost custody of her in North Carolina over issues with neglect, and she was having difficulty

It just bothers me.

So Candace became a ward of the state at age five after being taken from her birth mother twice, and the North Carolina records are sealed, but what the La Times did figure out was she had an angry father, a troubled mother, constant moves, domestic disturbance, calls, poverty, and then her parents separated. So that's like kind of the general vibe without being able to get into the records on Candace, but this Gene Newmaker woman, it was just

It doesn't mean that the ca it has like a full blown issue.

So there are people who do not believe in this attachment disorder at all and think like, maybe you're just a shitty parent.

So that's just something to add.

I also just like, don't I'm not a psychologist. I don't know about the attachment disorder, but like the rebirthing, it's like I could see like an adult being into this kind of thing, because you can, like adults can kind of like you know, people do all kinds of woo woo shit where it's like I'm being reborn, But like, how does a ten year old that's being squashed feel reborn? Like they don't understand birth really as a concept.

Like they don't.

Why would that change suddenly, why would they come out and feel different from a squash?

Oh, I don't this doesn't even make sense with that. This makes no sense, Like, it doesn't make sense to me.

It would make sense to me to do that to like an adult or somebody that had more like could be like, Okay, I am in my mother's womb, I am rebeing born, Like yeah, if you can, if you can like sort of be older. But for like a child, this doesn't I don't get it. They're like someone hurting me.

No, it seems like abuse.

I'm sure the kid is like yeah, yeah, like the pains is over, Like yeah, that's why you don't hate your kids, because they don't get it.

Yeah, like kids don't get things. It's a baby brain. I don't know. It's it's really fucked up. It gets more fucked up. So whatever.

So this Evergreen Place, it's the epicenter of therapy for reactive attachment disorder. There's fourteen attachment therapists with six clinics in a town of only eight thousand people RAD okay, and this RAD situation is described often as kids. So here's just more details on this. The disorder. It means like they're really charming on the outside born psychopath definitely, but they're terrors on the inside behind closed doors. So they're manipulative kids. They know how to resist, defy, and

I'd use it.

She found websites, discussion groups, chatrooms, links, clinics, you know, other parents that related to her parents who made the journey to Evergreen. And the creator of this Evergreen place is Foster Kline, a child psychiatrist in the early nineteen seventies. He came up with this notion of attachment disorder. What he called it was rage and reduction therapy. So basically, you get these kids raged up, you goat them, you confront them. You physically, like, none of this sounds good. Yeah,

The shit out of them.

Jesus Klein called it the joy of surrender. And also no hard proof this method works, no legitimate research to its effects. It's just a catch all phrase and everything is based on anecdotal and vague information. And soon therapists some with doctorates and la times is clear to state most only had master's degrees, which is hard. I respect a master's degree, but like you know, I went to a therapist who wasn't a real one.

She helped me, but whatever.

So some of these people just had master's degrees and they all head to Evergreen.

For this training.

By nineteen eighty seven, though, this reactive attachment disorder was recognized by the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. So I was born in nineteen eighty seven if you care. So Connall Walkins is a well known expert on attachment disorders and is very controversial. Also, even the well known she is not licensed or credited in Colorado wherever Green is, yet people view her as the godmother of attachment therapy.

Sorry.

Julie Ponder is another person involved in this crime, and she was a California licensed marriage and family therapist with two master's degrees, but no credentials in Colorado. And this also Colorado allows you to practice about credentials and a lot of people do it because I guess with liability and stuff, if you're not accredited, then you have less doctor responsibility or.

Something shady like that.

But yeah, and then Brittaalin since Saint Clair, she was the office manager at the time. Jack Dudley McDaniel was Brita's fiance and he was being paid as an intern. And then there were two assistants in the room, so it was Britta, Jack the mom, Julie Ponder, and Connell Watkins.

They were all there for Candace's murder.

Now this what she cast other issues before Canvas in

Or he's dead. I mean, I don't know.

Yeah, I didn't look into him, honestly, but he disappeared into Idaho dead or alive?

Who cares so anyways, but don't.

But Watkins did not stop after this case, and the integrity of the therapy did get her. Other people didn't agree and wanted to chill out on this aggressive nature of therapy, but Watkins was like, fuck no, I love this and opened her own clinic in nineteen ninety two. So January twenty two thousand, new Maker signs a contract with Watkins and associates for a two week intensive therapy program that costs seven thousand dollars.

The mom signs the contract for Kandass to do for seven thousand dollars.

Gosh.

So she showed up there on April tenth for a two week intensive therapy program, and then April nineteenth is when a frantic call was made to nine one one. When the authorities arrived, they found Candace lying face up on the floor and new Maker was performing CPR. Larry Frey was the paramedic and said to the La Times that he knelt to examine the girl and she was blue, cool to the touch, without a pulse or breath. Her pupils were fixed and dilated, and her eyes were full of red spots.

So she must have been dead for a while. So was like, was the CPR just like performative? That's so creepy.

Oh yeah.

They called nine one like a half hour after they realized what was happening. The corner ruled Candace died of exphyxiation. So this girl straight up died begging for her life while wrapped in a flannel sheet during a rebirthing therapy session. The defense tried to argue other factors might have caused her death, like medications or an undetected heart condition. Go fuck yourself. There was a videotape. There was a seventy minute session as evidence, a fucking videotape of it, and

So what the fuck?

Oh my god, this is so horrific.

It's awful.

And at forty minutes, new maker asked, baby, do you want to be born? And then, according to the LA Times, Candace's final word was a faint no.

And this ponder.

Bitch is heard saying quitter, quitter, quitter, quit, quit, quit quit, She's a quitter. Oh my god, And that's the New York Times. And this is all just because this adoptive mother wanted attention from this child who was clearly traumatized, like a neglected child didn't give an adoptive mother the love that she wanted, and like, what the fuck? Okay, So Watkins to investigators, said they didn't take the girls,

I think they should have gone to jail.

The mom who was there for the therapy, she was tried on charges of criminally negligent child abuse resulting in death initially, but then was given immunity to testify in the case against the therapist, but then also In another report, it said in October two thousand and one, she did agree to plead guilty to child abuse in exchange for no jail time and promised that her conviction will be expunged if she commits no crimes in the next four years.

I don't get it.

Yeah, and like stand there and watch as unlicensed alternative weirdos do this to a ten year old. Following the trial, Governor Bill Owen signed a law outlining rebirthing therapy in Colorado, and it's called Candace's Law.

I think you just see a lot of crazy stuff like this when people feel desperate, like and that's when the grift comes in. That's when a lot of grifters find the most desperate people and are like, trust me with this therapy, seven thousand dollars will fix your little baby up. You know, Like, unfortunately, I think this mom felt I also think she acted very selfishly, but I think that she probably felt like, you know, wasn't really caring about accreditation and was like, this is my last

This is the case of Michael and Cheryl Gravel.

I think it's probably Gravel.

Yeah, but we're gonna call him Gravel. They're fucking dirt. This is a notorious story. It became known as the Caged Kids, according to NPR, So we got to trust them. Wakeman, Ohio, is a town of one thousand people about fifty miles west of Cleveland.

They even do like a little nod to this because they say Eden's from Ohio and Rosemary.

Kneel Bear so time of the crime two thousand and five. Okay, so this couple, they moved to this place in nineteen ninety two and immediately started adopting children after their kids

It's crazy because they have the ability to go back and change them. Like in newspaper days and magazine only days, you couldn't change the story once it was out in print. You can easily go onto a website and change a fuck up now, and I think a lot of.

People just don't and that shit just lives on the internet forever.

Yeah, because it got wild because here it says like, oh, the older kids left, like some of the older their bio kids were there, like there's just different things. And then it would say eleven total and then it was no eleven adopted and it was like, what the fuck is going on here?

You now?

But you know, I did the best, but so yeah, they were like empty nesters, I guess, and decided to adopt a bunch of kids. So that was like in nineteen eighty two. The time of like the rest and all this coming to light and the crimes was two thousand and five. So yeah, basically, they adopted a bunch of kids and kept them in cages. Two bio kids and then from other marriages. They didn't have kids together,

Yeah, but it's not.

Written anywhere else, and it's like, but it's important to under I don't know. But it's also the Post. Can we even trust the New York Post? But why would they lie about the kids race? Yeah, it just adds a thing because you'll see, like the neglect that really happened with the city and these children, and I just wonder. So the kids were sleeping in cages. They were stacked on top of each other in a bedroom on the second floor of the house.

Each cage was three.

And a half feet tall and painted in primary colors, so a lot of these kids couldn't even stand in these cages. They were rigged with alarms and if they were open, and one had a dresser in front of it as well. No pillows, no blankets, just thin masks. Oh my god. And the cops raided their home September two thousand and five after receiving a tip.

We don't know who the tip is.

Investigators said the room smelled of urine when they showed up with a warrant. Also, two of adoptive kids' names were named Sharon and Michael, So they named their adoptive children after themselves. That's a red flag. Yeah, they shouldn't have been able to adopt another child after that, like change their names. Oh my gosh. Yeah, And Sharon and Michael were the only two kids that were documented ever going to school.

The rest of them did not.

Neighbors said the kids looked well fed, there were tons of toys, and they were polite and well dressed kids. So from the outside, maybe there was like a different facade. But also other witnesses at the Gravel's trial testified to other abuse like shoving the children's heads into a toilet and flushing it, beating them with sticks and boards, and

Obviously they were just like no, no, no, like.

But my thing is like, did they actually believe what they were saying or they just psycho liars? Either way, I don't care. They're evil. They said they had to put these kids in enclosed beds for their safety so they didn't wander at night. She also said that the psychiatrists actually recommended for the kids to sleep in cages. Also, like, because of the disorders, traditional methods of behavior control were unsuccessful, and it's like, yeah, again, you don't have to adopt eleven kids.

So December two thousand and six.

The couple were found guilty of four fellonyccounts of child and dangering, two misdemeanor counts of child and dangering, and five misdemeanor counts of child abuse. They were acquitted of thirteen other charges. The max they were facing, though, is one to five years in prison, which is confusing, and then the max fine is ten grand for each felony count.

And I wouldn't have.

Even known it if I didn't, if we didn't have kind of a sick fascination with the New York Posts because it's not really a respected news source. But now I don't respect any news sources. What is shocking but not shocking is the judge let them remain free on bond during the appeal process because the judge said Ohio child abuse laws are not clear on what constitutes abuse. In two thousand and nine, the Ohio Supreme Court rejected their appeal finally, which said that their search and seizure

If you can alarm a cage, why can't you alarm a bedroom, Like, why can't you alarma a bedroom? If you're worried they're gonna wander, put them in a bedroom and make there be some kind of alarm that wakes you up if they try to get out at night. I mean there's tons of shit people put like little whiffle balls over the fucking door handles so kids can't get out.

There's plenty of ways you.

Can keep your kids from getting out of their bedroom, but they involved letting them sleep with a blanket and you know, like have a pillow, Yeah, and not be in a cage.

In two thousand and nine, two of the teams sued the couple and the caseworkers. That's who I am, That's who I wanted to Yeah, that's who arranged the adoptions. The suit was also against Hamilton County Department of Job and Family Services in Cincinnati. The suit is like they were unfit to be parents and should never have gotten

Duh.

Because of this case, Ohio decided to change up their adopted rules and you're not allowed to adopt more than five children without a thorough investigation. Sure, Ohio, But why wasn't that part of the initial plans.

But it's also like what does the number have to do with it? I mean, like you could be pretty you could be keeping four kids in.

Cages, but that's okay, Like, you know, but I don't think you should be able to adopt that many kids.

But I don't. I know, it's crazy.

Well because to me then it feels like you are doing it for the checks, another kid whatever, throw another kid into a bedroom with another kid and like get more money. Yeah, like I do think people are then doing it for like because it's like a business. Then you know, so I see that. But then you know Delilah the radio show host, she adopted a ton of kids. Well yeah, she's she's like a weirdo Christian lady. Yeah, Delah, Hi, Liz, I'm so glad you talked about this case today.

I was so good.

Okay, well, both of those crimes are horrific. Thank you for doing the research. We do have an amazing guest today and you guys are gonna love her, So just don't go anywhere. Our guests this week you might recognize from HBO's The Wire, a little show on that channel, or the show Damages, a personal favorite of mine. But most likely you know her from appearing in over one hundred and sixty episodes of the NBC drama also from the Dick Wolf Universe Chicago Med as head charge nurse Maggie Lockwood.

But today you know.

Her from the episode Cage as Alma Cordoza. Please enjoy our chat with the wonderful Marlene Barrett.

Hello, Hi Marlene, thank you so much for being here. Ooh, look at that. You're a first guest with effects. What's happening?

I think so? I think so, but don't ask me how I did it. I don't know how.

Well, no, because it happened. Uh, Marlene had the thumbs up, come up? Remember that happened when we were facetiming. You're like, how did that happen? And I said I don't know. It just happened with her too.

Yeah, it's like for corporate meetings where you can like raise your hand or something.

I don't know.

I'm actually figuring out how to do I'm looking at how to do it right now. But yeah, yeah, corporate America, Marlene. This is huge for us because I feel like we're talking to a like Dick Wolf Royalty right now. At least as IMDb says, you are the longest running cast member on Chicago Med.

You have the most episodes on Chicago Med.

Well, actually, correction, there is.

Doctor Charles and Goodwin who have been there longer than me.

No, we gotta tell IMDb because they got number baby.

Because who plays Sharon Goodwin has fourteen years over.

On Law and Order?

Yes, yes, but on Chicago Med, a Pathos even a few episodes behind you.

Like when you look at the Chicago Med, you have one sixty seven and she has won sixty six.

Maybe she took a day off.

Well, what I love is that you are a person that doesn't look at your own IMDb and that's really important.

Yeh don't.

I don't. I don't. I don't know why. I just don't.

Well, not only are you in full SVW Glory and so many different shows. We're gonna talk about Cage, but we love the episode Night.

You are so good in it. I can't believe we're talking to you.

Yes, Oh, come on, that's such an emotional scene and it's stuck with both of us and I can't believe it's you.

We Actually, we haven't covered that episode on the podcast because we do it at live shows because it's not based on a true crime per se. But it's like one of our favorites to do at the live show. Nice and it's Yeah. When I was looking at the I was like, oh my god, she's also a knight.

Wow.

I was shooting that one with Benson Stabler and then having to be so emotional, and.

You know, I'll say that, you know, outside of the fact that yes, I'm a Wolf Universe, but I think I became a Wolf Universe junkie when I worked with them.

Yeah, because one, you know, sex crime is stuff like that.

I feel like I carried guns behind my back all the time and I'm.

Like, I wish she would, you know, That's how I feel.

But when I was.

Shooting with them, Marishka created an atmosphere that made me go, when I grow up, I want to be like her. Wow, because I remember being so nervous because I'm like, I'm such a fan and I got on the show and I was like yeah, yeah, yeah, but then you're like, oh man, the craft, I have to focus, I have to get there.

But I was so excited that it took a lot and she did this thing. She had the entire atmosphere just.

Nobody, just chill out, quiet, and right away it just sunk in goof Yeah, you know, I really believe that when you're around her, she pulls out of you. This film performance, it was just so safe because I you know, when you do these shows, when they portray like these truly gruesome crimes that could happen to women, They're like, I want to do justice to the women that I've gone through crazy stuff like that.

So, I mean, I loved it and I became.

Addicted to the Wolf universe because of it.

Yeah.

You know they yell cut, You're like, yeah, the action, You're like, oh, you know.

So after that, though, did you have to keep auditioning or did they just keep calling you or a mix of both.

It depends, you know, I auditioned.

I did the Law and Order Wolf universe that way, but I also did Conviction with them, yeah, which is another show that they had. On that show, I had a great time too, but I didn't audition for that. And I also did Try by Jury, which was a Law and Order that only had a one season run, and I remember on that one we did a true crime too.

Yeah, that was bb Newarth was leading exactly.

Yeah. And Clark the British actor who did Cabaret with her back in the day, Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, huge actor who's also been in John Wick, the first John Wick I believe, no, the second one.

I think it's the first one.

I haven't seen that yet. I gotta see it.

You should see it.

You should see it because Clark is in John Wick and John Wick. He gets killed by you know, the actress with the black hair that comes in and john Wick catches her because she comes into john Wick's room and tries to kill John Wick. And John Wick is like, no way, sexy lady, you're not getting me.

Remember that one.

Wait, you're a big fan. You love movies and TV. Obviously I'm a junkie. Yeah, I'm a junkie.

Yeah too, like not a little bit.

What are your comfort shows?

Comfort shows like just play the background while I'm cooking?

Yeah, old school on in Order, the first generation?

Yeah, Sam Waterston.

Yes, first generation. Even before Sam Waterston. The other guy I don't even know, Jesse Martin and I did an episode with him, and I remember I had to cry in for that guy. I remember going, I'm not gonna cry because you're too sexy for me to cry. I'm from and I was single at the time, and I was like, should I get a deep how deep should I go? Nothing happens, so move along whatever.

But so Lawn and Order Original was your first like foray into the that was like your first role on Dick Wolf stuff, right, I think according to this, like around five or something, right.

First role, Yes, straight out of school.

But more importantly, my parents learn how to speak English with some deep wolf stuff like he'll street blues.

Oh wow.

My parents are immigrant from Haiti and he'll street blues like my dad's trying to shape his mouth, like trying to say the things like they are so you can sound American.

Oh my gosh.

I was born in the former Soviet Union and I learned the English watching Baywatch.

That was like.

Who else?

Who else we teach you because you grew up in Chicago.

But then you've got a little bit of a valley girl.

That's hilarious.

Yeah, something I have accents.

So are you in Chicago and you're filming obviously because I'm for stokey.

Oh you are nice.

Yeah, So I really loved Chicago.

We had Stephen Weber on our podcast and we did fall in love with him, one of your cast Smkes Weber.

I was shooting with him yesterday.

Yeah, we became smitten.

Yeah, tell him, we say, hi, we love him.

Mister sexy, isn't he Yeah?

He is.

He really got us.

We invited him to come see our live show in Chicago, but he had an early call time, so you know he puts the work first.

Stephen Webbers just love that man.

Yeah, he's the best.

He's off his rocker.

Well, let me just say this, you talk about knowledge, Stephen Weber will give you a list of movies that you need to watch.

And he starts in nineteen forty five, Steve, Stephen, do they even have like these movies on dvd? I don't even have a DVD player anymore? Like, where am I going to find these things.

Kara's husband is like that, that's her husband. He watches like horror movies. We still have a DVD player. He's into old, old stuff. It's like a weird men thing.

I don't know.

Maybe I'm sure there's women out there who love old stuff, but I haven't met that many of them.

I just got a list, so I just want you to get to know about that.

That's interesting that you mentioned that your parents are immigrants from Haiti, because I went on your Instagram and I saw you giving an interview in full French, and I was like, where is she from?

Like it's just like fully fluent at French.

But what's what's weird is that one of the little boys from cage is from Haiti as well, and it's and like one of the detectives is speaking French to him.

You know that?

Do I remember that?

I don't know how much you worked with the two little kids, like Elle Fanning and the little boy.

It's a little bit with Elle, yeah, and then I worked with Wonder Woman's mama.

Oh okay, Annie Nielsen, Annie Nielsen, that's her. So she speaks French to the little boy and he freaks out and he stabs Stabler with a pen in the chest and she's telling him in French, calm down, Calm down, man.

I don't remember that. Yeah, he stabs stablir.

Miss.

It's an opportunity for you to have like some you know, speak some French with this little kid.

It would have been great.

We talked about this, you know, not long ago when I saw Dick said, Marlet you speak French.

Why don't we ever put any French in your stuff?

And I'm like, well, we already established her as a Chicagoan that comes from down south.

We can't go there, Dick, it doesn't work.

Suddenly she had a semester abroad in Paris and she speaks French's.

Back with a gar song and I'm like, no, Dick, it doesn't work.

It doesn't work.

We did do something though, where we put it in last season when I came back and I had a date with my husband and I went on vacation and came back with French accent or French something for two minutes. But that was about it. But I didn't work with that boy, but I worked with Elle. And first of all, let me just say that it was clear where she was going, Wow, Yeah, moneyball, moneyball all day long.

Wow.

And I first want to say that work ethic was clear, So you knew that this little girl was so focused that if she maintained it and did get caught up in nonsense, she was gonna go far.

And as we can tell, she has maintained it.

And she had this thing. I remember she had this. We had this conversation together and she was there with Grandma and Grandma.

Had an accent.

She was like that and she was beautiful. So she came in and she was like, well, my sister has.

A phone, and I don't have a phone yet, but.

My sister has a phone, and when I grow up, I'm going to have a phone too.

That's what she said to me.

And I was like, she's talking about Dakota, Like, yeah, you're just allowed to have a phone.

If I was a man on fire, I would ask for a phone after.

Oh my gosh, give me my phone.

And I'm sitting there going incredible.

And she was so humble, she was so family orientated, and she played.

A psycle path and that thing.

Mean, while they're like Alma Coldoza is like crazy and I'm like I'm crazy.

How about children up the corner over here. Yes, she was, Allan said, because she you know, burned the thing and she was just screaming I want to die and kicking and Connie Nielsen I was like, wow, it's how did that not affect her?

Yeah?

Ah, she was. They would y'all cut and that girl was just out wow action.

It was like you focus, you know, because when you I think when you perform as an actor, your ability to focus and to concentrate, but at the same time just stay connected with how many people are out there just working.

With you to capture what you're shooting.

Yeah, so it's like this duality of your dancing with the camera, but at the same time you're so focused that it's like this wave that's unspoken that you have to dance with the camera and you She was young and she had.

It, yes, young eight when she made that episode.

She was eight, so young, but I guess she'd probably been watching her sister do it for a while, so in terms of like, you know, the focus, she was probably like, Okay, I just like, you know, I.

Love that al Fanning was in sv Ann Abigail Bresla, and that makes me happy.

Crazy all these young these young prodigies.

Yeah, because in.

The in your first episode when you did Night, you had a lot of like Stabler and Benson FaceTime, right because they come to your apartment. But like in this one, you're more munch in Finn because I Stabler's in this episode. But Marishka, I think is on maternity leave, so you didn't work with her in this one, I don't think right, So how was it, Like, how was the interrogation with those two? Did you get any ice cold facts from Iced Tea?

Like?

What how did that go?

I'm a crazy Iced Tea fan New Jack City.

I mean us too, man so.

Mounch Man, I remember off camera Iced Tea was just amazing.

A media's wife, Coco got.

A chance to hang out. He's just so inviting as a person. Maybe at this atmosphere, very relaxed. And then Monch himself, we kept on talking about wine. That's what we talked about. We talked about you know, great wine, and I was just starting in the wine world, and I don't think I went very far with that. I just like, I just like good wine, but who cares

Why did you do that?

You didn't feel the intimidation of what necessarily the.

Character was going through. You felt more about the storyline.

So again there's something about it's a reason.

Why that shows lasted so long.

Yeah, the show last so long because I think when they come in, they embrace you into this family structure that is really effortless for them. Yeah, and I think that has to do with the strong leadership of Marishka.

You mentioned that you were inspired and it kind of got you into the dick Wolf universe, and you're talking about it again. So now that you are the number one of like your own dick Wolf set, as that like influence your behavior on set or like how things run at Chicago.

Mad Absolutely, absolutely, I want to say that there's a standard. There's a standard because people work very hard to put these shows up.

You know, there's a.

Lot of people that were very hard to put these shows up backstage, all the way at the production in office. When you think about our bosses, at the same time, and then by the time you get there and it's time to shoot, there's this sense of the first year you're like, I hope the show is good, so we have a show right then you get picked up and then you're at a place where.

Wait a second, how did we get a hit? Sho so and then you graduate and you're like, yo, man, if this.

Goes through, maybe you know I could back card myself. You don't think house, no, that's the way too big. You're just like a car that you don't have a note on. And then you're watching people who are doing the same thing as you, like local people who are building a life too, So then you become a family structure with them, and you kind of this responsibility that

Want to make it. These are long hours.

So I do think that when people come and they come and do these guest stars, I want to treat them like the way that I was treated when Mariska greeted me. I want them to feel safe. I want them to be able to do their best performance that they can put that on their reel and go after other gigs, yeah, you know, and get jobs. So I think that's really cool. But fun fact is that in twenty twenty two, when I got diagnosed with uterine cancer, I understand, don't go weird on me.

Let's just who needs a uterus? Right?

Just oh my god, Okay, sorry. When I got diagnosed, man, that was a tough time because I was about to fly in to start my season eight, and you know, had they not treated me right, I never would have gone to one sixty one.

But anyways, that's all what I And then when I got there and.

Everybody found out what I was going through, I had been cleared that I could work and everybody, you know, they checked me out and you know, I needed.

To start chemo.

Let me tell you, I was on the show when hair started going down, and you know, you're skinning is starting to change. You're coming back from chemo and you're like that show which is my home right now. Scrapped me around in security, just surrounded me. And that was from top down, Dick, Peter, those are the bosses, you know, so who run the Wolf universe. People want to know why that this universe is so powerful they wrapped me

I missed one.

Wow.

One.

This is with twelve chemo treatments, eight hour surgery.

I missed one because I said, yo, guys, I just need one episode off. I just feel like I'm a little depleted. And you know, I was down to like a size zero. I was going towards the minus. Uh. They did things like I would take my little scooter to set because I couldn't walk as much as I wanted to. I was out of breath post treatment. And that's just a testament to this world, really a testament.

And let me just say I know.

There was many a times because I'm a praying fool, people say like, why do you pray?

Because I don't want to die. It couldn't happen at a better place. Yeah, for my life to be saved like, oh, was.

It strange going to a set that was a hospital.

Absolutely, because my character in the med show had gotten cancer three seasons prior.

Wow, so you have to know that. Let me show your picture. So this is how I look.

You have a great shaped pad though. Thank god, I'll tell you something.

Let me just tell you something.

When that hair fell and I saw the shape of my head, I said, there's a God in heaven.

Yeah, it could have gone wrong quick. It could have gone wrong quick.

But there's a famous episode that was that TV Guide magazine quoted as one of the best episodes we had in season five, I think, And it's the episode where my character loses all her hair and she's in front of the mirror and she has a couple of strings and the air left, and I remember pulling on that memory to believe that, I mean, surely my character made it through.

There's a God in heaven that knew I was going to go through this, and I should believe that I'm going to make it through, because you know, a couple of times they come back and they do these tests and they have these words that are coming out of their mouths that you're like, yeah, I remember when I asked the question, by the way, doc, am I gotta live?

You know, It's the craziest question to ask a doctor. And I remember saying, Doc, don't answer that. Don't answer that, like you're not God. Let me just move on with this. Let's just do the chemo treatment. Yeah, I'm doing great now, by the way, I'm in I'm doing fantastic great.

And now I'm on.

Set and people are like, oh man, she talks a lot. Now she must be you, you know. So that's the atmosphere that's really.

Cool, because I mean there's like there's books and TV series and articles written constantly about like toxic sets and like horrible experiences people have in Hollywood. And then everybody that we kind of talked to from the deck Wolf universe is like, it's a family.

It's so great.

And even what I mean, we've talked to people that have been you know, let go from the shows, and they're still like they still talk about it like it was a great family.

You know.

So that's really wonderful that it was so such a supportive environment when you were going through that.

And Stephen Wember, yeah.

Crier when he found out about my illness.

I was like sexy man's crying.

He's in touch.

He's in touch with his sensitive, with his sense of his emotions.

You I knew.

Do doctors recognize you when you have any sort of appointments or and then do you sometimes like feel like you know what's going on?

You know?

They always say, because I'm a Drag Race fan, tricks and Koways go, you don't understand Drag, You're just a fan of a show. And that's how I kind of feel with SVU sometimes too, Like I'll get really into certain crime like and it's like no, no, no, I love a show. I might, but I don't know.

We didn't actually go to the police academy or any study anything.

You have the right to remain silent, don't you ever.

Like kind of try to flex the knowledge you learned? Then? Also, did any doctors recognize you?

And stuff?

Well?

Fun fact, my doctor is a huge fan came up to me and asked me, hey, Marlene, you're just one of my biggest miracle cases because of what they saw and then it just disappeared and move on. He like said to me, I need you to come and talk certain places so I can raise money to beat this cancer thing. Wow, because he's a huge research guy.

That is incredible. My chemo doctor specifically, I think that would be a fun thing. Man. I just thought about this.

My two doctors, doctor Stephen, LeAnn, doctor Wang, just amazing men.

That yeah, they did. It was just one of those weird things.

You know, they recognize you and they're like, what are you doing here? And you start telling them your story about you know, what you saw, you know how you've been feeling. And then they're like, Okay, we're gonna we're gonna try and calm you down.

Here because you know too much. You know too much and you can be your worst enemy.

So fun fact is, before I started as Maggie Lockwood the charge Ours, my parents weren't going to let me go into acting.

So I do have a nursing degree.

Oh my god.

Wow yeah yeah, never practice.

That's incredible.

I mean you must know a lot of like the terminology in your lines and stuff.

That's crazy. That's a gift. That's a gift.

Absolutely. Yeah.

And I know I did my nursing in French. That's the interesting part.

Wow.

So I know too much, So I have to calm down and just when I ask my questions. They really have to be specific because it can send me down the rabbit.

Hole of research where you're.

Like, yeah, and I gotta I can't be that person.

I'm my worst. I can talk, I can talk. I do all my work.

At home because I love being on set so much. There's this running gag that by nine am, Marlene has used at least two hundred and fifty thousand works.

Well, we're real chatty Kathy's chat.

But that's actually cool.

I heard other I forgot who we talked to where they were complimenting someone where it's like when you do all your work at home and then you get to just be there and be prepared.

That's cool.

Yeah, because I like the chat too, But also I love that your parents got like kind of the best of both worlds. They got a nurse, but then they also got a doctor on TV.

Like, you know, you're like no careers. Oh, you're a nurse.

I'm a nurse. I'm the only nurse, but I'm also a midwife. You have doctor energy, you have doctor.

Energy, doctor authority authority, yes.

But whatever, you're a nurse in real life and you're a very successful actor. You're like you are accomplished in multiple fields. That's like that's the dream.

Right absolutely. I think that had I not been.

A successful actor, I would have gone back to at least go to law school or do something like that.

Ah wow, Yeah, nursing is a hard job.

Unless I would have been a doctor in nursing, you know the nurses that can be a physician's assistant, and right, yes, that.

I would have done.

Yeah, but I think that being a nurse is it's tough because you want to smack these young doctors across their heads at times because you've worked with the mature doctors that have taught you so much. Then these young kids show up on the first June or whenever the new residence starts.

And you're like, oh lord, you throorty. That's great.

Yeah, I know. My mother in law's a nurse.

I have a lot of nurses in my family, and they're always like there's always like just mostly male doctors that are like that, like don't treat the nurses with the respect that they have the so much knowledge, and then they catch their mistakes.

The nurses catch the doctor. There's mistakes all the time.

Absolute yeah, well not even that, but like my parents have had to have medical says, and the nurses is who we remember. I mean, obviously great doctors, but yeah, the nurses are truly the people that are the day to day care and comfort of my parents and the ones that are like during COVID, like talking on the phone explaining everything.

And you're in Chicago when you shoot, where are you based regularly?

So I was based out of la and doing the back and forth for the eighth season, and then at the end of the eighth season, right before the strike, my husband said, we got to stay local. You're in remission. We got two kids, we need one local, and you're about to resign your contract. So I just committed to Chicago. It's a great place too.

Yeah. Fall in love with the place that you shoot something about it, you know.

Yeah.

So we made home base in Chicago and just committed to this city for at least, you know how long.

I don't know.

That's great. Chicago's great.

It's a great place because you do have the lake. I know, it's not a real beach, but it is nice and you get the skyline while you get to swim, and the food is good and it's gorgeous.

The food is good, The food is good, and the food is good.

It was never for a lack of a dinner.

Yeah.

Man, everything is good. Seafood is good here, steak is exceptional.

And then you have all these Mischelin star like there are one missioning stars, but these restaurants and I'm a foodie.

Well, and you have a linear if you really wanted to.

That's that's what I was about to tell you, girl.

Yeah, how did you go? Have you gone?

I have an appointment to go. I have an appointment with a linea.

Yes, okay, I've been waiting because my taste buds need to come back.

Well you know about the chef and his journey with his Yeah, taste.

Buds, Yes I do. Yeah.

Wow, I'm so glad you're get to go.

So excited, so excited.

Yeah, I've only seen people's like instagrams from it. I've not gone, but that's definitely a place of pride and for Chicago.

And like Girl and the Goat, Some.

Girl of the Goat is another one that I've been there multiple times.

Yeah. They just built one in La Oh.

Yeah, I've been to the La one and it's it was I went for my anniversary and was like I can't wait to go back.

I love that place. Well.

She's also the first female Top Chef winner from Chicago, so it's huge. I saw her eating mac and cheese once at a restaurant that whole.

Loop section because that's where it is, and the Loop.

I think y'all should drop a mic somewhere over there and do a podcast.

Because the City Winery is over there. I used to be a salon receptionist in that neighborhood. There you go before all the restaurants, but Harpo Studios Oprah was there exactly, and so it was always young professionals getting blowouts.

That's where I wanted to move.

But I don't rest well, and that place turns into a club.

Yeah, when you go on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, there's no resting. I would have burned everything over there because I would have been out every day.

My kids would have grown up in restaurants, high chair in some of the best restaurants.

That's what I've been.

On the floor exactly.

No, Mama, I actually just watched an Instagram video of a little baby eating caviar.

Some baby that loves oysters. I don't know. I need to get off the internet.

How old are your kids, Marlene? Do they eat like exotic foods? Yes, they do, because I have a two and I have a two and a.

Four and they don't. They don't eat anything.

Do you know rpm steakhouse?

Yeah?

We went to the Yeah.

Yeah and in Vegas.

Yeah, so they've had RPM steakhouse. They're not appreciative. They just steak. Oh, I can chew this. These kids are on their way becoming too bougie with their pally.

Yeah.

That's an issue because then when you put something in front of my daughter, she's like, no, I'm like, you're not going to go to restaurants every week?

What do you think this is? Put this in your mouth?

The boiled chicken.

Eat the boiled chicken. So yeah, so my kids are two.

You got twins? Oh you have twins? Twin Oh my gosh. Yeah.

So my son is two and a half and my daughter's four and a half. And he's much more adventurous than her. The younger one. He eats me and all kinds of stuff. The four year olds eats four meals that I rotate throughout the week. It's like so infuriating, but I know it's gonna change.

I can't believe you have two year old twins.

Two year old twins. You should see them. I just called them upstairs. Right now, you're gonna get a chance to see.

Yeah, my gosh, wait, is it a girl and a boy.

You're about to meet them here they are. Brace yourself.

Oh my god, Oh my gosh, look at.

These beautiful little blues. Yeah, my cuties.

They can't hear you.

Hello, Hello, Oh my gosh. Wait, what are their names?

Joshua, Joshua? Say hello, Joshua.

Got away?

Hy yah, there's Joshua and this is odd to see.

Hi me me Hi.

Guys are so cute their r names on.

He's Joshua and they are They're amazing.

Do you bring them to set?

ROB set once. They actually were very calm in front of the You want your water, okay, here we go, you want my water? Well? I rob the set once and they were pretty remarkable. They were very calm in front of the camera. They're very calm in for the camera. They really enjoyed the entire experience. When it was time to leave, they were.

Like, no, no, I like them with this big ass bottle.

Big big, it's mine.

The thing is I put a little bit of crystal light in my water, so I can do more water.

That's a good idea. I have to start doing that again because I need a hydrate more. A little sprinkle is something to keep it interesting.

Yeah, a little pink lemonade.

Yeah, and they really enjoy.

They're so cute. This is our first kid visit, first kid visit.

We've had some dogs pop on the pod, but we have not had anybody's kids.

My favorite. Well, you know what else? I wanted to ask you? How does it feel to work in scrubs? Is that nice?

Or it's like your same uniform every day pretty much?

Right?

Or same costume?

So I did this this TV series with Rose Burns called Damages.

Excuse me, it's on our list. It's on our list to talk to you about it. It's my obsession. And I was it's on my list. It was like my next question after the scrubs.

I tell you this show. Our heels were like this. When you got on it went cock Coca. Come then you it my toes? How long can I do this? You were done with cut We're out?

Yeah?

Then back on Coco Coco.

It was the most extraordinary experience because the shoes were never broken.

Into because it was brand new. So it's great, you look cute. Your feet hurt right now? I wear hookahs for a living.

That's amazing.

I get my feet massaged while I'm doing the sea. I have no words. And then the scrubs. You go to work with your pajamas. Every day, goals, goals, no complaints.

Our friend has black hookahs and they look so good. I want to get them. I have the colorful ones, I want the black ones, I think.

And haven't that they've progressively gotten cuter.

Yes?

Yes, at first they yeah, it was just like we don't care because we're just for running or something. And then they realized we would like in all black pair please thank you.

Yeah, they really turned into a fashion shoe because when I first saw them, they were just for athletics.

And now it's fashion baby.

Now they have commercials that look like the Apple commercials. Did you see the one where they're walking on water?

I haven't seen any of these commercials.

You see it up?

Wait, so let's get to Damages. Tell me everything Rose Byrne Glenn Close. How was I mean? That show was like drugs to me?

Like I always talk about how I would be watching it till three in the morning, and then I'd be like, what's the difference if I go to bed at three or I go to about at four, you know, and I would like to watch one more like I was so hooked on it.

I mean, they're geniuses, they're phenomenal actors. You're sitting there in this room and it was I remember one time it was Glenn myself, Ted Danson, Jelco.

Oh, yeah, he's a SVU. He's a SVU alum so talented. His character was having sex with his biological daughter and kept getting her pregnant though so not not great, not great, but you know, it's SVU.

That makes absolute sense when it comes to him. He's just a genius in the way that he performs.

He's so good.

He's really good.

Fun fact is I think at the table read he got a standing away clapping situation the table read wow Wow for free damages, like who wins that one? I remember Glenn saying that something like that. He yet the standing ovation for the best table read ever because normally you going into the table reading, he tried to.

Read as flat as possible. Not him. His flat was Oscar.

I want them to like bring back Damages. Oh my god, they couldn't. But it was so that's a great show. I don't know what about it. It like hooked me so hard.

Yes, I was doing that, and that's when simultaneously.

I booked The Wire.

Oh yeah, that became my conflict.

So I had to commit somewhere and I couldn't commit to Damages anymore, okay, because it was The Wire and the character was going you know.

Yeah, and The Wire has like so much Law and Order crossover.

Absolutely, and it's it's just another cult genius type you know show.

It's just amazing.

I was just gonna say something. You mentioned the table read flatly. I was horrified once I have been haunted because one of my friends was at a table read and she acted too casual and they replaced her. Since since I heard that, because like the bigger, more established actors were being more casual and she was new, and then the character was named after her and the table

Absolutely, well, let me just let me clarify. Let me clarified what I mean that you're playing it flat when there is a tone to the character, there is a rhythm to the writing, there is a layout to the scene that you are giving, which you're not given is a one hundred performance, Yeah, but you're giving everything that he's needed for them to get the temperature of the scene.

You're giving that.

Oh, because I saw a video of like Lady Gaga once at a table read singing for shallow, and I was always wondering, like, did she really have to.

Do that or not? But that probably gave the temperature.

Like you're saying, yeah, yeah, you need the tone of the scene, but you're doing it from a place where you know, you're at your place and your your focused work.

You're not engaging with the actor next to you.

You're not like fully physical, but you are giving I would say a twenty five percent.

No. I think she was trying to be a little too cool and she probably still lets to prove herself a little and yeah, yeah, she learned a lesson that day.

Still a job, It's still a job.

I got to write that down. It's still a job. I got to remember that.

Yeah, it's still a job, and you're graduating. I think it connects back to the sbu cage situation where you know, when you come out of school and you're trying to figure out who you want to be, what you.

Want to do, and all that jazz.

I think you have a lot of questions about does my talent translate on screen?

Yeah?

Can I perform at the level of the big guns that are around you?

And I think what happens is if you go to the table reads that you don't risk because you're too nervous and you're too intimidated by the people that are there, you'll never learn how to believe in yourself and risk on screen. I think that's what it was when you ask me about this Wolf Universe thing, is that I found that when I worked with them, I was able to test the temperature of my craft.

Yeah, it all came together.

For me in such a way that it really made sense that I was an actor.

Yeah.

It gave me an environment to safely flourish where I'm not worrying about any me too, craziness happening to me. And you know, you're a young lady, You're aware that you know there's crazy that's potentially out there, and they create such an atmosphere of ethics integrity, all that stuff that your creativity just starts.

Great, So I think that's what it is.

Connie Nielsen, I remember in that episode really having an impression on me.

Such a presence. She had great presence.

She was this pinning me of femininity, gorgeous, and she walks in and she reminds me of gal Gadou before gal Gado. Yeah, that's what she reminds me of. So I wasn't surprised that they paired them together.

Yeah, that's a tough episode for her character.

You know, she's really like considering whether she can even do the job.

So it's interesting.

She's good.

She does a good job in that one. Interview went really full circle. Yeah, it was beautiful, Marlene. This has been so amazing. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us. Yeah, thanks for being so open so much. What a tree and showing us your cute kids and the kids a podcast first for us.

And enjoy Alnia. You deserve it.

I will I will thank you lady, such an honor. Ye Okay, bye.

She was so fun. I love her.

First time we've gotten to see babies on our podcast zooms.

I'm excited.

I know those little babies into our lives were so cute.

That was so fun and just like the journey of everyone. And I don't know, cancer sucks.

What the fuck? Yeah fucked? And as you get older, it's just like it's all around.

I don't know.

Yeah, people need to start like what are the scientists up to?

What are those fucking scientists up to?

Its time, like get it together, cure cancer and you know, invent teleportation.

I just don't know if that's too much to ask for.

Twenty twenty four, because I know the military has cool technology, you know what I mean, like give us some of it, yeah or not.

I don't know why I brought up the military.

Really crazy of me, But well, let's get into our postmortem.

I would say.

What I've learned is it doesn't matter how cute baby el Fanning is. You don't bring her into the house. She might start a fire. She will burn your house down.

Yes, absolutely, baby el Fanning no one to fuck with.

Do not do not fuck around with that little nug.

And it's not like this episode, but we talk about it on this channel before. But like, you know, I think adopting, fostering, doing all that is like very amazing. But like these children might have problems and you have to be equipped to it. You can't just chain them in a cage. Yeah you know what I mean, Like, yes, they're gonna have some trauma. They've been passed around, like I just yeah, there's just more to it than like, oh I'm gonna take this kid.

Yeah, they might start a fire.

Well.

Also, it's like it's like how we just talk about however you become a parent. It shouldn't just be like about you. It's not about you, yes, touche, however you are becoming a parent in your life and being a parent. It's just like, if there's anything I learned on the daily, nothing is about me. It's always about these little kids and how they're doing.

How are they doing? How are they doing? They're funny.

Rosy keeps posing like a model in the pictures and going on fashion. I know, I posted one on their Instagram, but like then she just did another one today where they put my boots on this morning, and then she just posed like with her stomach out and like her hand on her hip and like a like a scowl, And I was like, what's happening, Like, you know, she's doing a theater camp this summer, like this could be it. I might never see her again. Wait, where is she going to theater camp?

I'll tell you. I read, I'll tell you about it. This is so exciting. So last summer she's going to be doing theater. It's three weeks.

She's doing a bunch of camps, but this one is the longest, which is one of the reasons I chose it because it's three full weeks and I don't have to like every other week. You know, the way that you do camp here in La, it's like fucking these piecemeal camps. Is it just La or is it the future?

Because yeah, I just remember you went to camp, even it was a day camp for eight weeks and you that's it.

Like I don't remember these games. I know pre me going to sleep away camp. I went to YMCA camps like just in the summer and on spring breaks and stuff, and it was not like hard to in. They were just like the YMCA camps. And here it's just like trying to get your kid into like good camps that will be like enriching in the summer, because you know, kids like the argument for year round school is that kids need they lose a lot in the summer, so you want them to be doing programs that are not

This is bad, like the government should not be giving children. It's just like the people that want to adopt children that are so ready and want it so bad it's a forever expensive, wild nightmare. And then for some reason, who is this Margot Martindale gets to fucking shame them up.

But also like in terms of the real story of the mom who was at the end of her rope, which is why she took her daughter to this fucking quack, Like, I think that there needs to be more resources for like men health in general, because you know, I wish that this woman had had somewhere else to turn that was not a rebirthing class in the middle of fucking rural Colorado or whatever.

And yeah, make sure people are qualified and what they're saying they're doing. I yeah, sometimes we get to the post mortem and I forget about the real crime because I want it out of my brain, and then it settles back in and I remember the darkness.

And no, it's there for the rest of the day. It's fun, the darkness we truly live in. Well, we can make this one short. This is a jumbo episode, I would say, because we had so much fun with Marlene. But let's get into what would mister Peg do our weekly segment where we direct you guys to an organization, a blog post, an article, a website, something to give

Yeah you know, rate review, subscribe, give us a follow, and next week we will be doing Perverted Justice Season sixteen, episode twenty one.

See you there, baby? What it b square? Mean?

Like?

Squares are fine? Wait? What do you mean?

You know? Be there?

Be square? What does that matter?

No?

Being a square was bad in like the fifties and meant being a nerd, right, But like we're such a square?

Yeah?

What is that?

I don't know, rigid even on all sides, I don't know. See you guys next week.

That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at kraklank and at glitterch Please.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our producer Casey O'Brien and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain, and to.

Our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Koperski for our theme song, and Carly Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Danielle Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

Dun dun