Bully w/ Kate Burton

Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on.

These are our stories.

Done done, Yay.

Hello, Welcome to the first episode of that Messed Up n SVU podcast. We are comedians slash sv super fans. I'm Kara Clink, I'm Liza Trigger and we're very excited. We're so excited.

And obviously this is about SVU true crime and we will get into all of that. But first we want to introduce each other because I guess.

It's like a first date. We want you guys to know who we are, Like, who are these random women that are.

Yeah, that look beautiful in our drawing and lego, You're like, who, who? Who are these gals with such great hair?

And we will let you know. Yeah.

So we're both comedians. I've been doing comedy for about twelve years, stand up comedy for about twelve years. I'm married to another stand up comedian. We have a twenty month old toddler baby girl, and.

Rosie did start saying my name. I don't know if you didn't want to tell anyone her name.

But Rosie does say Liza's name. And also she now when I am busy, she goes mama podcasts like, so she'll be like even if I'm like in the bathroom, I can hear her being like mama podcast.

My favorite is when she goes nut Anyways, I'm a comedian as well. I've been doing it eleven years. Nine is when I started, and you know, I dabble in some acting, but mostly mostly we do comedy. And I am not married. I would like to be married. My ulterior motive to my whole career is to find a spouse. But you can't be like to you can't know too much about me, but you have Yeah, I don't know. I am looking for a wife. I will settle for a husband, but I would prefer I would prefer a wife.

Yeah, and that.

May definitely have a relationship with my daughter. So I'll tell people a little bit about you Lisa, so that you don't actually have to like brag on yourself, because you do have a very impressive life slash resume. Lisa came to this country at age three from Russia. She has it's like, actually very delightful to hear her speak in like rush English to her parents on the phone.

Yeah, what's even better is trying to explain to my parents what a podcast is. That's been the most fun thing to try to explain. She's a Chicago native. She moved to New York after doing stand up in Chicago.

For a long time, and that's where we met Hanna, who is our intrepid producer. Hannah Say Hi, what's up. If you ever hear a third voice talking on our podcast, it's usually Hannah, our amazingly organized producer. We both have known her for years and years through comedy. Lisa has had a half hour on Comedy Central. She's got a half hour special on Netflix as part of the Degenerates. Also, she says she dabbles in acting. She recently I thought was a scene stealer in the Amazon movie King of

That's movie.

That's what your waitress outfit in that movie is exactly like what my waitress outfit was like pretty much like just so unflattering. I had a clip on tie, like I very much identified with your character.

And in the makeup chair, I kept being like, are you sure we just can't raise the ponytail maybe a fun messy bun, and they're like no, And I kept trying to fight and they're like jud said no. I'm like, I just can't imagine jud Is like give her a low ponytail or else this side park and jellet down. But I guess he did do that. You were also an amazing stand up and I guess I did just call myself amazing.

But we are.

And I loved going to your album recording. Your album Undefeated is so fucking good. I love the Disney Princess joke. There's a if you're looking for the best transitional lenses joke that there is. Undefeated is the album for you. And I remember sitting on the floor and it was because it was sold out and it was so much fun and then you are a very skilled writer. I always love when I type how I talk into something and then you make it palatable for the world and grammar,

That is us.

Yeah, we love housewives and back today you're gonna get a little taste of housewives.

And we didn't even plan that. That's pretty fucking cool.

It just naturally are all of our passions collide. Now, I just need Miley Cyrus to do an episode and I'll wear.

There have a bit more drag Queen episodes also of U s view. We need to facilitate that.

I'll message some agents.

Yeah, so yeah, we have a lot of common interests. And before I met you, Kara, I like, even though I was living in Chicago, I knew who you were, and I think you knew like all girl comics know each other, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're all like pretty on board with each other.

And when we started there were less.

Now it's like so fun to have so many Housewife fans as comedians everywhere. But we met at UCB East at your show If You Build.

Yeah, we had we had met, I think, but this was like the first time we truly connected was at my show. In the green room. We started talking about how we both like one of us brought up us for you and we were like, oh my god, I love that. And then you told me about this Twitter account. Yes, doink Doink, which is and it's amazing.

It will it tweets anytime any Law and Order is on television, what episode, what channel, and when it starts, and it influences my life.

Sometimes I'm on Twitter and I'm like, oh my.

God, in three minutes and I'll like go to eye on immediately.

So yeah, we discovered that we both love SVU, we both love true crime. We have a favorite forensic pathologist in common.

Doctor Michael Badden.

I don't we love him.

Yeah, if you have another favorite, let us know, because he is the king of.

Lee.

Doctor Lee is a good one, the one who did like I think OJ and stuff like that. He's also a good friends of pathologist.

But doctor Topsy, it was just so good because people would write to him and be like please help, please. You got to switch the death certificate to be not natural so we can investigate. And I just love that he's a superhero and travels with his little briefcase from town to town solving crimes. But yeah, and we love SVU in the way that I'm assuming everyone does, which is you want to have sex with either Christopher Maloney or Murushka harget Day or both of them at the

Yeah, I have like loved this show from the beginning. It premiered on my birthday in nineteen ninety nine, really, so yeah, it's a I think it's written in the stars for me to be obsessed with the show.

I remember one time I went to a Pailey Center event and it was the SVU panel, and I bought my ticket too late, so I didn't even get to sit in the room with the people. I had to sit in a side room at the event and watch it on the screen. And then afterwards, me and a few like ten women just stood outside in the rain, waiting to see Marishka and Peter walk out, and then afterwards we were just deflated.

And if you were.

One of those women, please let me know if you were standing in the rain with me.

And you can do that at That's Messed Up pod at gmail dot com.

I watch.

Because I did feel very I felt happy to see a glimpse of them together and in love, but then also sad for myself that I was willing to get wet just to look at her once.

I don't know.

She lived on my same neighborhood in New York for eleven years and I never saw. My sister did, but I never saw her. If we can see, I mean it's her house. I would love to see that. She needs to do a seventy three questions. I'm on for Vogue. I want to see the inside of her home so bad. So this podcast is two years in the making, over

So yeah, thank you, Jackie. Honestly so glad you couldn't do it. This is a dream come true that now when I watch us view.

We're like, what are you doing. I'm like, I'm working. I can't do anything with you.

So Lisa perfectly was moving to LA at the same time, so it like all worked out, and then you know, we ended up going to pitching exactly right, and Hannah had already been thinking of doing something like this, so it was like a perfect match.

What I love so much is in the emails, Like when our manager messaged us to say that Hannah also wanted to do an SU podcast was the same day that you gave birth to Rosie. Yeah, so it's just so cute that I'm like, oh, this is great news. She is in labor. But then I still emailed you being like, I know you're in labor, but we have to write this thing for the thing, and our manager was like, leave Kara alone.

I'm like, okay, okay, you're right.

You're right, we should let her give birth to Rosie.

Yeah. Yeah, so a labor of love. This has been a long time coming and we're so excited that now you guys are hearing it. And it's called that's messed up, and that is a for those who know and for those who don't, it is a reference to Iced Tea. Iced Ta used to say that's messed up all the time. Apparently writers it was apparently it was a big drinking game and the writers stopped writing it in for him.

Yes, very heinous crimes. Yeah.

So essentially the layout of the show, in case you're just stumbling upon it right now, is we are going to jump all over the show's twenty two season history. We're going to pick episodes that we like and that are based on true crimes, and we're going to do a recap, little analysis of the episode, and then we're going to do a deep dive into the true crime that the episode is based on, and then.

Our dream come true for us as we get to interview and act from the show from that episode. So every episode we get to talk to a person from the episode.

Can you believe it? Oh my god, And.

We're talking to some really awesome people. So yeah, we're really excited.

And we recognize that Sview is a fantasy about the legal system, and we love the show, we love the characters, but we do also realize this is not the reality of how cops behave. This is absolutely not how the justice system works, and we plan to call that out whenever we can.

Yeah, I mean, the show is called SVU and the show is about special victims, and our podcast is called That's Messed Up. So obviously we plan to tackle some pretty intense subject matter, whether it is fictional or not. And we're comedians, so our goal is to entertain, but we will also be taking a page from Olivia Benson's book and always being respectful of the victims and our listeners.

So we're going to get into our episode. And side note, we did record this before the election, so if you hear us talking about forty five as present day. That's because we did not have our celebratory election yet.

Yeah, we're so excited for you guys to hear this podcast and to get started. And I mean, ultimately my goal is just to be able to afford Hulu without ads, guys, and.

I want to meet those women in the rain and find a spouse. No, and we need and we want to be guest stars on the show.

We want this.

We need to become so popular that the SV writer's room is like, well, I guess these ladies have.

To find a dead body. They just let us find a body. We're not asking to like be incorporated into the cat. We just want to find a body.

Yeah.

Pre theme song, pre theme song. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, let's get into Bully Season twelve, episode eighteen. This starts with like the classic disclaimer that's like, this is a fictional story and does not depict any real person or event.

We don't believe you.

Yeah, we started a podcast about it. It also starts in an art gallery and it made me miss New York. Yeah yeah, it starts singling wine. This episode opens hot with a cameo from Viva La Diva herself Luenela Countess Luenne de la Sepp.

Can you believe that our interests just intertwine so hard?

And she was wearing a silly hat too. I'm actually like, no, she's not. But I'm actually really surprised that more Housewives have not done cameos on this, Like I feel like they get like Paty, No, not Patrie. What's the name pat the guy from New York one.

I have no idea.

He's like iconic New York guy. He's always like doing little news clips other episodes we're watching. I have Tamaron Hall, like all kinds of like New York journalistic people and uh Sus Simmons like Chuck Scarborough, like people that do local news in New York are always in these episodes, and I'm like, the Housewives are part of that canon.

I just wonder if, shockingly lu Anne is the best actor of them.

All, Like I know maybe that like Ramona, like I don't know how to behave, I don't know they know how to behave in there.

Ramona is a terror.

I mean, Luanne's nuts, But yeah, I think Luanne has a level of professionalism that maybe the other queen's and.

She just had to play. She just had to play like sort of a pompous like art person and that kind of like works for her. Uh so, yeah, we started this gallery opening Leuyne like Waltz is in like just yelling the name of the artist in the middle of a gallery, just Andreas, where are you? And who walks into an event like that? She brings him back back like to like the behind the scenes of the art gallery to be like, I love this new piece you did. It's so beautiful and it's just drips of

Why not?

So the blood is coming from upstairs where all like a body has been murdered, the body of Ellen Seslin. She's the CSFO of a company called Luscious Grape, which is like a high end alcohol distributor, and she's just lying there with her blood pooling down this vent that has now gone into the art gallery. The cause of death is an exsanguinated from a severed carotid. She also has anal trauma. There's no DNA and there's signs of a struggle.

And this always reminds me of the John mulaney joke, and I'm mad at him so hard that he has the best SVU jokes that have ever been written and every episode but it is like, you know, you can't swear on TV, but you can.

Say anal trauma.

Yeah, not even before the credits, like what the Oh, the credits are just getting started when they're talking about anal trauma. And so yeah, they find out that the show downstairs is called Dollars in Death The Politics of Blood. So it's all just very coincidental. And the squad initially thinks that this is just like a date gone wrong, and that's how we piece out of the cold open.

Uh.

So we go to the site of Luscious Grape. So you need to understand to understand this episode, you got to meet all the characters at the Luscious Grape Company. Okay, this high end liquor distributor, wine and alcohol distributor. So the first person do not fancy or sexy job like of all the businesses, it's just like a distributor no, when you work in wine and alcohol distribution like you do, like wine and dine big clients, like I do, think it is a kind of a cool I don't know.

I don't know.

You could sell booze like this tastes great.

I did always when I waitress, get excited when the beer guys would come, you.

Know, yeah, like you want this beer.

For example, here's some koozies.

I did enjoy that.

I think it's really the next natural step would be you weren't running an international company of alcohol distribution.

Too many spreadsheets?

Yeah, you know, working on this with you, I'm like so impressed with your organization and all the tabs and the spreadsheets, and so I was, you know, hyping you up to a friend and she goes, yeah, we make spreadsheets.

I work in an office.

Why are you?

Yeah, I have spreadsheets. And then someone else was like, yeah, tabs in a spreadsheet.

I do that too. Like no one is shocked.

They've been doing it for decades and I've been talking about it for two weeks NonStop.

How there's multiple tabs in a spreadsheet. Never seen it before, but hey, I love your adoration of my spreadsheet, so you can keep it coming, Okay. So basically on the Luscious Grabe website, there's this super fucking weird video. It's like a cult recruitment video, honestly, Like you first meet a nett Cole who is the president CEO. Then you meet Ellen, who is the dead woman, who is the CFO, and it's like they we started this in our garage Jersey City. I'm like, okay, and then what is this

That's the gayest name on earth.

So those are the main characters that we meet in this like insane recruitment video, and all they talk about is how like much they love working there and how it's this like amazing workplace. And I'm like, you just know, somebody thought something's fucked. No one talks about their workplace that way, Like you can be like, oh, it's great to work here, but they're like, this is a family. It's just too creepy.

Yeah, you know something from the internet.

If company keeps saying we're family, that's not sign Yeah.

So their luscious grape dot net is their website. I guess lusciuscrape dot com was taken by like a drag queen or something. They're also I need to point out to our producer there is a co producer on the show named Speedweed. We need to get that person for an interview. Just let's make a note like who is Speedweed. I always see their name in the credits, and I'm like, are you a man or you a woman? I need to know more about Speedweed. So a neighbor approaches Benson.

We also have to lie to the cops because if you say one thing, it could be used against you. What if she was like, yeah, she was kind of lazy, and then.

Yeah, they're like it's you. Yeah, Amanda an Ox, perfect example, said a couple weird things and was in jail for like three years. Okay, so Bruce kind of gives us an insight into Ellen. That's a little bit different saying that she was a blast at parties. They call her a fruit fly. I don't think we're allowed to say that anymore. It's like there's a couple words for women that have a lot of gay male friends, and I don't think any of them really fly anymore, including fruit flies.

Yeah.

Yeah, this episode they call them a fruit four times, Like it's very I mean, what year is this episode from.

It's uh, I just have so many fruit tattoos that to me, it only only gives me.

Yeah. I know, it's like I would love to be fruity, but I understand, you know. Yeah, So Bruce reveals that they've gone to AA. She's sober, so it appears she's been drinking the night of the murder. So that's a weird thing.

Like yeah, they say, they say that she gets drunk so she can fuck because no one wants to fuck her ugly face.

Yeah, they actually she is deformed. So the cops get into Ellen's phone and then we get into like a serious tangent in this episode. So I'm just going to go into it really quickly because it does waste a ton of time. But there's this tangent where Ellen has been buying leather goods at a website called My Leather Fantasy, not SNM. It's high end leather goods. The guy who owns it his name Wan Alvarez. He's been harassing her,

He also has a great quote quote of this episode for me, and he goes, Okay, so I harassed the bitch.

Yeah, so that's great. Yeah.

He's like, I didn't kill anyone. I just called an old woman with Alzheimer's at three am and screamed at her about paying for her leather. So basically he's like yes, and he presses God, Yeah, any press.

Is good for us exactly.

So once we get to the end of this tangent, he's got an alibi for Ellen's murder. So even though he was harassing or he didn't do anything, now we get the flip. The script is flipped a little bit. Warner comes in our girl Tamaratuni not to me the luggage brand, and she's saying it might not be murder.

Yeah, I have a friend who who does that.

Yeah. Oh no, I was talking about with my husband because in an episode of Pen fifteen one of the girls pulled out a piece of her hair. I thought maybe they were going to go into a tricotillomania plot, but it was not that. I'm just impressed that you can say it fully. Yeah, I mean it's it's actually pretty fanetic.

But yeah, there's also another fun quote. Yeah, Benson goes and got anal trauma on the way down.

Oh yeah, I don't remember, but I have it in.

All big letters, right, Like they're basically like, sh it's possible that she just fell against this vase because she was so drunk and the big chunk of glass like severed her carotid artery. Oh my god, Way is the kordit artery in your buttthole? No, it's in your neck. That's where the that's where the cut was. But yeah, that's why Benson's saying. She's like what and then she somehow got anal trauma like it during the fall, Like she's like not buying that this was an accident.

Okay, so everyone Grape.

Yeah, you guys are such good friends that she said is it in your butthole? And you didn't even comment on that just but no, it's in the neck and we're so loving towards her. Wait, your karate artery being in your butthole is really funny. Okay, So everyone at Luscia's Grape is stonewalling in like a very creepy way, like they're all saying the same words. They're all saying like her death is a major loss to our company, Like they're all it's very culty.

They've been told instructed what to see.

And Benson's like, if you guys are a family, why didn't you know that your best friend and sisters ripping hair out of her hand? Yeah, mental illness is not a game. No no, So again they break someone breaks into Ellen's loft, the cops go over. They find immediately they find the one thing that the brak the person that broke in was looking for, which is this little

Okay, my mein boss that's not criminal, would be like, are you stupid?

I asked for that an hour ago? Yeah yeah, yes, Okay. So we're like, it's Miranda Priestley. It's kind of like the level I think of. She wouldn't even say stupid.

Randa Priestley would go, I demand excellence, bring fifty skirts to the appointment today.

Yeah, don't ask me another question.

Yeah, I don't have time for your bullshit. Yeah. So she's calling, she's like making homophobic slurs, she's terrorizing them. She slaps Ellen across the base. Okay, so they confronted at with the videos. It's twenty films of her being a complete psycho. The waiter from the dinner the night before says that she was also screaming at Ellen the night before she was murdered, and that is just like denying, pretending to cry.

It's like crazy, how she.

Almost she offers like no excuse, She's like, this is out of context. It's like there's no context where slapping your employee across the face is like help.

A good thing.

Yeah, And then Ic goes the Queen of means on a tear. Queen of Mean, so Bruce. So as they go check in with all the different people that are in the Little Luscious Grape cast list, So Bruce, the gay guy has a two hundred thousand dollars car. Corinn the young girl is in therapy. I don't know why that is considered something lavish, but I guess it's like

I think.

So we get to this mob scene where all these people are attacking a net. It's like, honestly iconic, Like, she looks amazing. She's got dark sunglasses on, like probably something with like a fur collar at a don't really remember, like a head scarf over her head. And she's like and they're like construction workers are yelling suck it, bitch at her. Look. I don't condone calling women a bitch in this way, but it honestly, like really makes me giggle in this context. You need to watch the episode.

Yes, And this is why we watch us view yeah for her last second, a.

Last second, but chugging trist Yeah.

And the thing is, it's not like someone or the medical examiner told Benson like, hey, by the way, something with the alcohol.

She's just like the opera singer the throat.

It's a butto Yeah, like she just like I love detective.

Work like that.

Well she pieces together, yeah, because what was there her blood alcohol.

Was Like, how did they know she didn't drink it because there was no alcohol in her stomach, So there was no alcohol in her actual stomach. But she had a blood alcohol of one point six, which is way over the limit. So they basically say, oh, yeah, it's an old alcoholics trick to put alcohol like through your anus, or girls do it with tampons. I had heard of girls doing it with tampons. I've never tried it. I

Oh my god.

You know, as he's getting carried away by the cops. The cops don't even care about this old woman. She's just left literally just and like the cops are like bye man, Yeah, and he goes mother's very clever.

She taught me a lot of things, and you're like, what.

Else He in the end is very willy lowman, where it's like they all wanted money, they all try and they get nothing.

Yeah, very willy wonka.

They you get nothing. You stole a physy, lifting drinks. You let your boss slap you across the face, you get nothing.

How much money would you work on a like if let's say you were treated like this set a job, slapped in the face, insulted.

What would be the paycheck you'd need for slaps? Well, I mean millions? Okay, I don't know, I can't, I don't know. I want to get into the million a year. You'd be okay with your boss pulling your hair and slapping you once a week. Ten ten million, ten million to gets lapped once a week. Oh, it's a once a week slap. Yeah, yeah, I guess you'd get used to it. Yeah, that sounds terrible, all right, all right, let's move on. I love this episode though. It's got

Turns and got chugs a housewife. Yeah, leather fantasy. You knew that we were going to start gay from the past. Yeah, a baby spice reference just from you. A grandpa, the name Peggy, our friend's mom's name Peggy.

We like that. Yeah, it was a good episode.

Well, we're gonna take a quick break and we come back. We're going to get into the actual scenario that this is based on Welcome Back Great Ads, So this is fun.

This is not even a full time like is there There was a little tax evasion, but this character is based on a New York legend, Leona Hemsley, and I watched an ID channel Barbara Investigates Barbara Walters as one of my heroes, and so I was really happy to see their interview. And this interview took place like right before she was going to jail, so she was not happy. She was pissed, and she kept playing like I'm the good person, I've done nothing wrong. So it was like

You've got me on Leona Helmsley's side immediately.

And you know what's crazy? Who brought Leona down was Rudy Giuliani. Oh my god, which now is all connected? Like were they friends even back then in the eighties? Were they always conniving to this evil?

You know why?

Supremacist lunacy? I don't. I just don't know what it is.

Or so that's just interesting how this is all happening it was the eighties.

Greed was good, baby.

She was known for lavish parties celebrities and she never had to pay for her parties because they were in her hotels. But like Elizabeth Taylor would party Michael Jackson. Like in the eighties, the Hemsleys were the fucking party billionaires of New York.

I just want to say really quick that my family has stayed at the Hemsley sand Castle in Sarasota, Florida, and it's not that nice.

Yeah, this is the eighties. I bet they.

We stayed there in the two thousands and it was not great. Yeah, that's like most of Vegas. It's like this used to be nice, so fucking gross. The eighties were pretty.

Garish. Is that a word? Okay?

So she I'll just give you some stats though. Fifty thousand apartments they owned her and her husband, four five hundred hotel rooms, and seven million square feet of office space, and they lived on the top floor of their most grand hotel, the Park Lane Hotel.

She didn't grow up rich.

She was a nineteen twenties daughter Jew immigrants from Lithuania.

Poor dad made hats.

She dropped out of high school at sixteen, married and divorced twice mother by twenty so, you know, nothing too wild. But then she became a receptionist at a real estate firm. Within a few months was a broker, and within a few years top realtor.

She was a closer baby.

Wow.

Yeah, immigrants know how to work hard.

And so when she met her husband, she was older and she was forty and she was worth a million dollars. And I just feel like, as a single chick, single mom in New York, being worth a million dollars is impressed.

In eighties. Yeah, it's super impressive and big fun thing.

Harry was married. So she met this dude and she's like, we're in love. And he left his Quaker wife life in a second for this party bitch because he wanted to live a fun life. And his other wife like they didn't drink no coffee, just like very religious losers.

And he also started out poor.

He would collect rent for tenements and then he crushed it during the depression because the banks needed someone to manage all these buildings, and so he started managing buildings.

For banks during the depression. Oh okay, and so that's how we made money.

And he found investors and yeah, so he became a real estate person.

I don't really know.

They're like this real estate power couple. Then once they get together, yeah.

And he like they really did love each other. It seems like I don't think it was just for money. I mean, maybe it was, but he was excited to finally live this like gold fancy fun lifestyle after like living with his wife of forty years. Who are They were married for thirty four years and Leona was more fun.

Yeah, you know it was there a big age difference.

No, I don't think. I don't know. Okay, good question, But.

I just feel like if he was managing buildings and like the depression, he's probably a little older than Leo.

Yeah, and he died before her. Yeah, so you're right. Also he did.

Okay, So in nineteen sixty one he had his dreams come true and he bought the Empire State Building.

So he owned the Empire State Building.

I try to see who owns it now, and it's just a giant trust and I was like, I can't, I cannot, I can't weed through this. I can't wea through all these people who own it. But the Empire. He owned the Empire State Building. But he didn't treat it like a jewel. And that's the thing, like he wanted. He grew up poor, and when you're poor, I think it fucks up your brain because like he reduced the maintenance crew and the cleaning.

Yeah, it was cheaper light building in the eighties. I feel like the first time I went through was in the eighties or the nineties, and it was not nice, it was gross. Yeah, he just didn't let it.

He just had that hold your money tight vibe and so he didn't even do anything fun whatever. So they had money, they married, and she just revolutionized his life through gold on everything and bought all these luxury hotels. Her and Trump are fighting.

Yeah, it's weird that they're fighting because they're like twin people. They're like, they say, well, so they don't like each other. Narcissis don't want another narciss rights.

That's true.

And then and they know their tricks. So and we talked about this before we recorded. When is a woman an actual like bitch, evil person or is she just like a Miranda Priestley and really good at her job and being judged unfairly and like men want a mommy to baby them and not a boss. Right, so it's like, was she evil or not? You were asking this bitch is crazy. She loved firing people. She would fire people on the spot. Someone would be at the elevator. She

Her nickname was the Queen of mean yeah, which they say in this episode about.

So what happened was she joined with this advertising company and they were like, this is what we're going to do, and no one's ever done this before. They're like, you're the queen of your castle and we're going to put you in the commercials and you are the queen at the hotels and if people come to these hotels, they get.

To hang out with the fucking queen.

And then she fired the person who made the advertising coming.

So that's what happened.

But yeah, she was an iron fist, like she wanted shit to be perfect and why not she you know her, her name's on it.

Yeah, So she.

Loved firing people.

She was suspicious of everyone, suspicious of her son. Everyone's stealing stuff. And you're asking, is she evil or she just a tough boss? Okay, So her son dies about forty two, she turned on her daughter in law, gave her the bill for the funeral and to move the body from New York to Florida, and evicted her and her grandchild from the Hemsley property.

Wow.

Yeah, she's like despicable, and she was cheap and just fought with people like haggled constantly, even though she had a lot of money.

And this she sounds like she could be president, except that she's a woman. That is what's upsetting. I'd rather Leona be the president.

At least she had a sense of humor, you know, like, at least she had dime like dressed well yeah, you know what I mean, not a boxy suit. Like it is crazy to have these two despicable lunatics from the eight and one is the leader of our country right now it is, or hopefully not, you know, we'll see when the stairs. But anyway, so that this is her downfall and what she got in trouble for. She bought a mansion in Connecticut in nineteen eighty three. You're from Connecticut.

Who doesn't want to like hit a couple balls around with Iya the Tiger playing come on. Yeah, and she wanted a marble dance floor on top of the pool. Again, it seems fuel.

It's just crazy how much house renovation standards have changed from the eighties till now, because I'm like, this doesn't.

Seem very easy.

Yeah, but she wanted to save money, and just like our forty fifth president, she decided not to pay any of her contractors and charged everything to.

The business, which is a legal Yeah.

So if Rudy was on her side and not his, maybe she would be in charge in their country, like they're they're the same.

So she didn't pay anyone.

So they got an anonymous tip to a New York Post reporter. He got a call and said, Leona is a crook and do you want to win a Pulitzer prize?

Whoa, And that's all he got. So that's like spicy, I love that.

Yeah, So he agreed to meet this reporter agreed to meet someone in Manhattan. He got these files, started calling people and started figuring shit out, and then the US Attorney Juliani started to investigate from the New York Post article. So the New York Post posted this article on all of her schemings and how she's not paying people and that she's a crook. Giuliani starts investigating, and he says, usually it's really really hard to get witnesses to talk.

Like she wasn't able to successfully Stockholm syndrome the mall with the promises of millions of dollars like in this episode.

But no, no, Les's just scrape no anybody. So the hatred was so huge for her, and she abused so many people that April fourteenth, nineteen eighty eight, they announced an indictment of Leona Hemsley and thirty five counts of tax evasion false records that showed personal as business expenses. I do this too, but that's because I'm so I

What are you doing? I'm like, I'm just I'm confused.

But what sucks? And I am on her side.

Here it says she only didn't pay four million dollars in taxes, but she is in total paid six hundred million dollars in taxes, so it's like a small percentage of what she was doing.

So she's pissed.

She's like, oh, everyone thinks I don't pay taxes. I've paid six hundred million in taxes.

So another reason she's above Trump is that she'll show her tax returns.

Yes, yeah, but so million. And she says that she brought a blank check to the government. I don't know how you do this, and here's four million here, we'll pay it. We don't care, And they didn't.

They still want her to go to jail. Yeah. So, and guess who her lawyer is.

Yeah.

Alan Dershowitz is in here, and he's like, it's a misdemeanor. Chill, relax, what are you doing?

Like she but I'm gonna get ahead of myself because it's too funny. She didn't pay him, She never paid, she never Paiditz.

She was pissed and didn't pay him. So I love that.

But he was like whatever, Like I don't understand why he's being why this is happening.

It's not that big of a deal.

And a housekeeper overheard Leona Hamsley saying, we don't pay taxes.

Only little people paid taxes. Oh yeah, that's a famous quote of hers. Yeah, so the housekeeper heard her say that. And also her husband, Harry was like old and sick and couldn't stand trial, so it was all it was all her. Oh I didn't even realize he was still a he was still alive at the span.

Eight And yeah, Harry was old and sick and got off the ticket. So only she stood trial and then the media just came out and so so yeah.

So go on, So what did she get for a sentence?

But the thing, so Trump had called her a disgrace to humanity, which is takes one to no one. Yeah, and then the mayor called her a wicked witch.

Well like that's the thing.

So they also said she wasn't able to get a fair trial because the press was not.

In New York City when everybody like she was just such a hater to hate her. Yeah, she was just like I was saying, when I grew up, Leona Helmsley was like a punchline, Like you just I knew who she was. And I was like eight or nine, you know what I mean, Like I just knew what was up that she was some kind of like mean lady.

Yeah, and yeah, you grew up on the East Coast, because I also use four and I don't really remember this.

Oh yeah yeah, yeah, East Coast, like not that far from New York. Also, I'm from Connecticut, so she was I don't know where she bought this house, but it's probably near me where I grew up. Her lawyer revealed her age in court, and she was pissed, and she said, I have a temper. I have a temper, but I won't say it's terrible. So I love that.

August thirtieth, day before my birthday, eighty nine, she was found guilty of thirty three counts of tax evasion and sentenced to four years in prison, but she got Dershowitz got the state to drop their charges, just not federal charges, and so she did, and that's why she refused to pay him. And Dershowitz is talking about how he's poor and he still uses tea bags three or four times.

Yeah, but also like just being her lawyer probably got him so much business, you know what I mean? Yeah, I just I was like a very sensational trial. I remember. Yeah.

I just hate when rich people are like, oh but I still reuse my tea bag and it's like, yeah, but you still hire a mate, you know what I mean. It's like, you have these symbolic poor behaviors, but you don't actually live like a poor person. You're trying to relate to us, and it's just not working. I'm sorry, And you're not a bad person. If you use a tea bag one, it's like, what do you shut up?

Live without me.

But no one fucking cared. So she served eighteen months in jail and two months house arrest.

Eighteen months in jail at like a white collar probably, yeah, like a Martha Stewart.

They said that she tried to turn the prison into the Hamsley Mansion, and she hired other inmates to make her bed and sort mail and do laundry. Oh, from jail, she ordered a birthday cake for Harry from the Four Seasons while she was in prison, So I gotta love that. Ninety seven Harry died and she started to sell off parts of the real estate empire and she went up. She went out with like younger men here and there, but she never married again.

Her found love again, but she loved her dog. And her dog's name was Trouble, Trouble, Trouble.

She learn Cindy Adams is in this episode of ID Investigates with Barbara Walters, and Cindy Adams and her were best friends. Cydy Adams Adams columns right, yeah, so they were really good friends. And Cindy also stopped talking to Leona because she invited Missus Adams to stay in her Palm Beach house and then had federal marshals kick her mother and her out of the house.

Okay, why just to do it.

I'm moving the pan Okay, so you know, and there are some good things she wanted to push nine eleven. She walked to a firehouse gave them five million dollars. She gave five million dollars to her.

Because she still had a ton of money when she got out of jail. It wasn't like a ruined her well, because she still owned all of the papers, Like four millions, not enough to like repossess things, right, So yeah, she just sold off a bunch of stuff and had time, so she got charitable at nine to eleven.

Yeah, nine to eleven brought the best out on her. And well that's what's crazy. Nine to eleven happens in this evil bitch gives five million dollars and our president celebrated that he had the tallest building in New York.

Now when nine to eleven happens, So you know who's more evil?

I mean you're right about like maybe she is an evil bitch, but like how we view evil bitches towards evil bastards is not fair.

Yeah, like he is our president. He's done worse crat whatever. I can't even keep talking about it. Two thousand and seven, she died of heart failure at eighty seven years old, and she gave most of her five billion billion with a b dollars to a charitable trust. She gave her two grandkids five million each. Her other two grandkids got nothing. Ah, oh my god. Five million out of a billion, though, is like feels like nothing. But I think that's nice.

Like, hopefully you can make that work. I always heard she left the money to her dog. So she left twelve million dollars to her dog Trouble, okay, and the news that's what it got sensationalized. And that's the only way I knew of her. When I say I didn't really know of her as a child. Was the woman that gave all her money to super Dog?

Yeah it wasn't. It wasn't all her money. Did she give more to the dog than both.

Her grand children came?

Bye?

Yes?

Yes, yes, But nobody wanted to take care of Trouble because she was a bit too.

Trouble bit everyone and it bits.

And it was shit. It would shit, wouldn't it shit? I feel like I read somewhere that it would like shit inside and she would just make people pick it up.

Oh, I'm sure, but it had a security guard because it had too many death threats.

New York is the greatest city in the world. They're going to kill a dog that has too much money.

Trouble died in twenty eleven at twelve years old, and it's it wanted it.

She wanted the dog to be buried with her. They didn't allow it.

And then Leona has a three million dollar trust to keep her mausoleum clean because she hates dust.

Wow.

And so that's the story of Leona Hemsley. I'm glad she didn't commit suicide and I'll stress.

But well, speaking of that, I just want to really quickly touch on that part of the of the episode. That part of the episode, the public suicide like on camerade, is based on a politician from Pennsylvania named our Bud Dwyer. I didn't know this, yes, and he in nineteen eighty seven. He was he was like a state senator in Pennsylvania

That's so sad that he thought that one point two million dollars would be better for his family than him.

Yeah, that's really sad.

And he maintained his innocence the whole time, which is also crazy. How you don't do that, I know, but I think I said that he was like, if I'm going to if they're going to lose everything, I don't know, but he maintained his innocence and said it wasn't like.

So this is what I have to say.

How do we know about Leona giving money to a dog, but we don't know about I don't know about this guy publicly killing himself in front of press that sat there doing nothing as he handed goodbye notes to his family.

Maybe it was just because it was like Pennsylvania and like it wasn't a like a glamorous.

Little I love the eighties on VH. I've never seen it once.

And in the eighties. This isn't really as related because it wasn't at a press conference. But in the eighties, a woman named Christine Chubbick in Sarasota, Florida, where the Helmsley's in Castle is. She killed herself on air. But that was like a depression thing, and.

She was I think she was kind of.

Depressed too, Yes, but she was trying to make a statement, I think. And I saw a movie about that with Rebecca Hall. It was really interesting. Anyway, thank you for telling us all about Leona, the Queen of Me, and thanks for telling us about the public suicide. She is a Leona Hemsey is a iconic New York character.

I think I got a Pomeranian.

I would name it Leona in honor of her.

Or Trouble. I love that.

Trouble just reminded me that Chevy Chaseable a classic, classic classic. Our first guest today is a renowned character actress, a star of stage and screen and Hollywood royalty. Honestly, if you look into her, you've seen her on Grey's Anatomy, on Scandal, and on the best comedy of all time Veep. We are so pumped to talk to a net call the Bully of Luscious Gray, herself, Kate Burton.

So this SPU episode, Bully is out of control. You're amazing in it. Yeah, it's iconic, and we just want to know when you saw the script and read that, you're gonna, you know, publicly commit suicide and slap people and call them fruits.

Like, how did you feel?

Well, here's the thing. I mean, you know, as a New York actor, as you know SBU, Law and Order, the Mothership and Criminal Intent. I mean honestly that you know you, I mean, I can honestly tell you and I've been doing this for almost forty years. And those shows, those three shows are like annuities. I mean, you know, for a New York actor to be in those shows. I was in the Mothership five times and playing two different characters, and then I did Criminal Intent the second episode,

S you has more living victims, so you see.

Well Special Victims Unit. Yeah, well exactly, it's not about murder, it's about sexual assault. It's about all this, you know, and so you know, and these are things we watch right before we go to sleep at night. Right, I don't generally watch SVU before we go to sleep at night. Having said that, yeah, so Bully was you know, I for some I'm really nice lady. I you know, I have two kids, I'm you know, very happily married. I play so many of these mad women.

Oh you do?

I play Oh my god, yeah, well, I mean Ellie's Gray and graceyaw Me, Sally Langston on Scandal, Sally Langston particularly. You know, they're crazy, like, I mean, they're there. I play crazy megal ladies. Those are that's my thing, crazy megal ladies who kill people.

But are they usually ones that start out sort of sweet? Like because at the beginning, Elly, You're like, oh, this woman seems so a nice woman.

I know she's got a problem. But listen, the thing about Bully that was so incredible was just you know, getting to you know, commit suicide in front of people. That's always fun, you know. And that's the thing is that, you know, I think that what what Long Order with the casting directors and what Dick Wolfe you know, always did so incredibly is you know, they mined their New York actors. They had this plethora they have still this

Another thing that was so great about that character, and I don't know if you had any say in air collaboration, was the wardrobe.

The hair and makeup was so good.

Well, wardrobe on lawn orders in general are all. I mean, it's they have the well, you know, they have costume designers that have experienced in theater, in film, because you know, New York is a one. You know, everything happens in New York, you know, if in terms of all the different media. Yeah, and so you know the costume. You know,

Yeah, you know, that's with that point in Bully where you're trying to push through the crowd that saw like the mob that's coming after you, and you're wearing like dark glasses and like a sort of a hooded scarp and you're like out of my way. Like it's like just it's well, can I say you know this podcast, we sort of talk about the episode and the true situation or crime that was based on so the episode what your character I think was loosely probably based on Leona Helmsley.

Oh you know, I didn't even totally know.

Yeah, I love that.

You know that you're telling me this years later.

She was this, you know, incredibly mean.

And remember those advertisements.

To your dog Your character left everything to her dogs. It's like very similar.

Please you have such memories of this episode. Thank you for reminding me. Yes, well, you know those advertisements that you used to see in your times with like the Queen is in her palace. Yes, you know, there she be Leona Halmsley. I mean, Leona Helmsley is like a character out of a cartoon. I mean, you can't even make stuff up.

It also is nice to hear that you're probably amazing to work with, considering Shonda keeps using you in the law and order world, keeps using you, and that's like pretty amazing.

Yeah, thank you. Well, I do love working with all those folks.

I mean, look, you.

Know, the key is heart. One of the hardest things about being an actor, and especially of my age group, is that you you know, we came from sort of one of the thrills for me, to be honest, is I really thought by my mid forties i'd be done. I mean I really thought, you know, when I was first coming out of Yale twenty I was twenty four, you know, I thought, Okay, well I kind of got twenty years and here we are and I'm sixty three. Yeah, and the reality is thank you. And the reality is

How great.

It's amazing, you know. And I moved to LA when I was forty nine, and I always say what my age is because I'm like, why not? And I have had the most interesting parts, you know, Ella, I came with, I grived with Ellis Gray, Sally Langston, Senator Barbara hallows En VP.

You know, Aunt Marie, I can't believe that just hit me. That's like our favorite. I mean, I can't the favorite.

That's our favorite chart.

I mean, you know, I don't go on television.

Well, she's a genius, and so is Armando u Nucci so and so is every single person on that s want to say, it's.

Perfectly cast every and every detail of every character.

Yeah, funny, I.

Mean Tony Hell, Tony Hall. I mean even in the read through for the pilot, Tony Hale, I remember just sitting at the table just like will hold me back? I mean, and you know, But the thing is is that I'm so I feel so blessed that I've gotten to play all these different, really interesting parts.

So, since you have been in all the law and order worlds, we were wondering if you needed the help of detectives, which which detectives.

Would you go to?

Original Criminal Intent or SV you.

Oh, I have to say, well, Mrshka Hargate is pretty hard to beat.

Yeah, I would.

I would if I could combine them, I would go to Marishka Hargate and Christopher Notes.

Yeah.

I don't know if this is appropriate to ask or not, but we just if you have an Elizabeth Taylor tail or a.

Little Elizabeth Taylor's stepdaughter.

You're asking me this with two but it's just fair. But she was a dream. I love her so much. I mean, I love her personally. We always got along great. She was always incredibly dear and sweet and just really great. I mean incredible sense of humor. She was amazing, and I mean, you know, honestly, you know, I mean one of the sort of I actually told the story a few times. But you know, she had these jewels that she really really loved, and I mean they were grout.

Well, thank you so much for taking the time out of your schedule, because I know you seem very busy.

You know, pandemic.

You're so welcome.

That was thrilling. Oh my god, I'm like buzzed from talking to Cape Burton. Yeah, she loves acting. She's good at it. She's been in everything you've ever watched. Like, I don't think anyone can say they've never seen this woman on their screen. I can't eve we've forgot VP. I mean I must have just zipped over that in her IMDb or something. I don't know how I miss that, but like iconic.

What a career, and that she's been in all the law and order universes, and she loves them Risca.

As much as we love Marisa.

Yeah, so it's nice to know that even if you're a stepmom's Elizabeth Taylor, you will be blinded by Mariska har charm, beauty work.

She wants to call Marishka in the event of a problem. Yes, that's her decision. And yeah, so post mortem, Okay, let's do let's break it down. I mean, what do we learn from balacious grape?

Don't let your boss slap you take him to court, right, have a lawsuit, Tape stuff. Actually we learn if you're getting abused at work, take record, record it.

Don't end up dead, right, but record it. Get a good lawyer. Yeah. I have a friend who actually just had a very high profile lawsuit against like a creep o like billionaire boss, and she recorded stuff and that's I think how she eventually brought him down. Yeats to record.

So record before you quit and press charges. Yeah, don't I don't. Don't pour alcohol in your butt, don't butt chug.

Don'tchug even if you're trying to have if you're trying to get your opera singer mom drunk, like put her in a home. I think there's got even edible. You know, find another addiction. There's gonna be another way.

So yeah, don't butt chug. Also, don't trust your coworkers. They're gonna rat you. Also, there's cameras everywhere. Don't steal your grandfather's car.

Yeah, and try to run over one of your coworkers.

I think those are all the lessons.

I mean, yeah, I was gonna say, if you want to come in suicide, do it with a crowd, but don't do that.

Don't do that, don't say that, none of that. Yeah, this was a good one. This was a great episode, a great interview. I mean, the crime is just Leona do yourself a favor and looking more into Leona Helmsley. She's a true, like Kate said, like a comic book character, like comic book villain. Yeah, cartoon I guess she said. I guess we also learned don't make villains like that the president.

I don't know if we learned that.

Just right this episode, but I mean I stay with her just because she was mortal enemies with Donald Trump.

Also, I'd like to say, if there's a press conference and someone is reading suicide notes and apologizing to their family, stop.

Don't go for that go for that have the gun. Don't just wait it out as they're fully confessing what's about to Yes, so I think you know that's Yeah, if you see someone that's on the on the brink, maybe help them out. Don't just watch for a story. Yeah, and is less just grape a thing?

I don't know, it doesn't work somewhere where people think that, like they say that your family, Yeah, don't let yeah pay your taxes, babies pay your taxes.

And don't leave all your money to your dog. That's honestly the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Not all she only left twelve million, all right, Lisa.

More than her kids twelve million.

But the dog has like a ten year life expectancy after your death. Probably what that happens to the money? Who does the dog bequeath the money.

To the dog's eating?

What?

Wagoo? Is that how you're saying? Yeah, waggoo bee every day?

No?

Yeah, Rachel Ray dog food? What's doesn't Rachel Ray have a dog food?

Yeah?

Which is weird. Someone has a joke about this.

That's why I looked at you so weird, because the joke is like, you're a chef and you're coming out with dog food. What let's say about you? I think it was Mateo If anyone cares about follow Mateo Lane on Instagrams. And he actually didn't really drink. I don't think he butt chunks though. We got to talk to him. You got to come on the pod. Okay, So we are here as always inspired by Murushka Hargatea, but she

And if you'd like to watch along with us.

Next week's episode, we're going to be covering Damaged, one of my favorites of all time. Season four, episode eleven. All of the episodes are on Hulu.

That's how I watch, and if you're more of a Peacock TV type person, it's available there as well.

Thank you so much for listening. Tell a friend, give us a fun review, you know. Follow us on Instagram. We're going to post some fun games and gifts and SVU art.

We'll see you guys next week.

That's Messed Up as an exactly right production. If you have comp elements you'd like to give us or episodes you like us to cover, shoot us an email at That's Messed Up Pod at gmail dot com.

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