Born Psychopath

Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

These are our stories, Done done.

Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up n sv podcast. I'm one of your hosts, Kara Klank and I'm Elisa Traeger.

We talk SVU crime and we do not have celeb guests because we are in the strike in the horn of a union.

Yeah, but we got a good one for you. Like always.

The only thing I didn't do much this weekend, but I would like to share.

I did see the movie Strays.

Oh my god, you wanted to see that so bad.

I went alone.

I went to see Strays at just in our Highland Park Theater, which is very old timy. It's cheap, it's teens. The screen is not good like it is pretty funny.

It's floor it's sticky, like your feet stick to the floor. But I like going there because it reminds me of when I was in high school going to see movies exactly.

And the prices are not and I like that.

It's they seem like teens that care less than the teens that are at AMC or Regal, you know what I mean. Yeah, they're more bad teens. Like they're just lounging on their phones on the counter. There is no boss overlords and there's no uniforms, so they're slutty and their boyfriends are visiting them.

And I enjoy that, I really do.

But I was embarrassed because there were teens behind me, and I think they were fooling around, but they were being loud and they kept getting louder. There's only like seven of us in the theater, and they just kept getting loud, and at one point they were so loud. But I felt so weird to try to tell someone to shut up during a talking dog, you know what I mean.

I know it's like I'm gonna miss the plot. Yeah, I just put into it.

I was like, you gotta let the teens just talk as loudly as they want, because you you know, they have skateboards.

I'm not messing with them.

And for the dog movie, but it was funny, but I was the only one laughing. I actually I want to be in more packed theaters, like I was the only one laughing, or maybe I'm.

Just a fool, but I wrote, you know, I enjoyed it. It was silly.

Yeah, well the teens are like not laughing because they're like, what if my friend doesn't think it's funny. I mean, or they're busy giving each other hand jobs or something. I don't know, but like, oh no.

There were two orgasm noises that came from the back there.

They were not behaving.

And that's not a big theater, Like if you're hooking up at the AMC or something, you're you're a pot.

You're in the back.

You're like, so there's only like maybe twenty rows maybe like honey, what if I need to pee once?

And I see everything? No I heard? I was I felt old for sure.

You're making me think of the time where I was way younger than I am now.

And I yelled at.

A bunch of teens at the premiere, not the premiere the first Hunger Games movie. When I went to go see it, I was in the front fucking row. So I was so pissed because that movie is like, not the movie you want to be in.

The front row? Four Like what movie do you want to be in the now? I'm just saying, like a movie that's more.

Just like like I could see book Club in the top in the front row if I had to, you know what I mean, Like there's not action sequences where your whole like body is like you can't even see what's going on because you're so close.

And then these teens next to me were like, would not shut up, and I was.

Like, be quiet if I'm in the front row, I'm not like not letting you ruin this for me.

And that's the last time I remember yelling at a teen, So that was many years. Did they listen or did they tell you?

Yeah, they thought they were quiet after they were quiet after I told them I was nice.

So I was like, can you guys just stop?

And they were like yeah, okay.

Yeah.

The only movie I remember distinctly being really in the like front row was Pineapple Express.

Okay, that so because I.

Do love a lot of old timey shit, but I do like reserving seats. It's nice, Yes, it's you know, you can come a little later. You don't have to watch the pre like it really used to be such a race, and I like getting my time gifted back to me.

Yeah that was Hunger Games was absolutely in a pre reserved seat. Time, because I was like, I've already bought my ticket, Like I didn't even consider that I could like get a refund and come another time. Like I was like, I'm here. I have to see Hunger Games. I have to see it in the worst way possible. So I saw it at a with my neck at a forty five degree or even steeper angle.

But oh, you know what I've been wanting to.

Do forever is shout out are We have a good friend named Amy Phillips who we've been on her We've been on her Patreon. She has a great patron about Bravo. She's like the woman that imitates all the housewives. Her therapist listens to our podcast and I just want to say, Hey, you're doing the Lord's work out there helping people with their minds. Thank you for listening. I told her we would give her therapist a shout.

Out, and here I am doing it.

And then, speaking of all things Bravo related, we Lisa and I are actually going to be guest hosting the daily show on Sirius XM called Reality Checked.

It's on every day from one to.

Two Pacific, so if you're on the East coast, that's four to five. So that's kind of like your drive timer when you're going to pick up kids from school or whatever. That's a great time, Sirius XM Radio Andy. It's called Reality Checked, and it's the week of September eighteenth, which is my birthday week. If you don't tune in, you're specifically not giving me a birthday gift. Eighteen nineteen, twenty twenty one, twenty two. We are going to be on every day for an hour.

Talking about Bravo.

Yeah, I'm really fucking excited, and we're gonna feel like real radio jockeys. You know, I'm gonna feel like Eddie and Jobo. I can't wait. Those are our boys in Chicago.

Or for me, Elvis dray On from Z one hundred. Yeah, I'll just feel like we got a collar coming in. But ba ba boo, Like I can't wait for us to be fully zany shock jocks.

I'm really I'm really fucking jazzed. And this actually reminded me of are we we went to dinner. We did go to dinner. We did see Mandy Moore and Hillary Duff at the same restaurant.

Excuse me together together with men.

That are just like a sketch artists drawing of a man like, no distinguishable characteristics, nothing, just blurs of a beard, Like you don't even look at these little torps.

Yeah, you have Mandy Moore and Hillary Duff walking by you.

You were like, I'll give you five million dollars to give me two physical descriptions of one of these men.

I would be like, I would actually do it because brown hair and beard.

Yeah, I guess I don't know the brown hair. I'd be like, I think, like, I don't. I was really I didn't even register their faces. It was full prosopagnosia face blindness, did not register them at all. I had only eyes for Mandy Moore and Hillary Duff, and it was amazing.

It was amazing. I wish I was just so focused because we knew Hillary was there. Our friends saw like on the way to the bathroom, so that was confirmed. And I wish I wasn't so focused on Hillary Duff that I got.

More into my eyes and brain of Mandy Moore.

She's just like a tall blur to me that I liked, magnetic. You could tell why she's a star, But too quick, Oh, I'm actually looking at a gift bag right now. I went to the store Shorthand in our neighborhood. They have such good cards. Oh yeah, they have cards for things that no one else does. There's one about like congratulating someone on being sober and how hard it is to

Yeah, and they're beautiful too, They're all just like such pretty cards a Shorthand.

Yeah, I just I'm obsessed with it. I didn't wait.

So you got a message from someone a DM and they had a question for me.

Yes, we got a message from a listener that really made me lol. I took a screenshot I sent it to Lisa that was just like, can someone explain why Lisa went to an evangelical college when she is the biggest jew around?

Like, what's happening? How did this happen?

You know, whether my word's not theirs, but how did Lisa end up at this midwestern evangelical college?

And I was like, what a great question. We will address. It's so perfeit question. And I'm so excited to dive into this. So I went to Iowa State. That's where I went in the beginning. Do I regret wasting my family's money? Of course, I don't know why I went to the Iowa. It was to follow my passion advertising. So I arrive at Iwa State, I'm there for a year and a half and I drop out my second semester sophomore year.

It just was not working out for me.

There there were some arrests, and if you want to know more about the arrests, I did a show on Comedy Central called This Is Not Happening and it's on YouTube and I tell all my arrest stories and yeah, cool show. So after I dropped out, I went home and I wasn't really like allowed a break.

I had to like, what's up next? What's going on?

So I decided I want to work in the music business, and I went to Columbia College for a semester for music business. I am tone deaf and it is insane, and I was working at a hair salon. I was going to Columbia College and within a semester I knew this was not my path. And so there was a girl that was on a real world in my class. She was annoying. I kind of want a stalk her and find her. Ooh, that'll be a fun adventure for me.

But it would have been. It's a four year college.

It would have been so much cheaper, it would have been easier, It would have been amazing, but I wouldn't have met my best friend.

Yeah, I was gonna say Julia, So yeah.

And then I switched to sociology because I found comedy at twenty one, and so I just switched to sociology. And I did like my little core girl group. I would say, like, we did have a great senior seminar. We did cool experiments and essays and like I loved the one professor I had who recently passed.

Actually, and then so you stayed there for two more years?

Well, I actually had one more semester with a few credits that I had to do because of all the transferring I did, like not everything transferred, and we're lucky that I had a friend and that worked there. Some things were shifted, some things were counted. So I surprised my parents with my graduation. So my sister told them that they were going to a Russian concert and then they just stopped at McDonald's and then I was in the McDonald's and my cap and gown ready for them.

And then it was a surprise.

And I knew my dad was in a good mood because we went to Ma Giano's and we got to get apps and desserts and I got like a mint a grasshopper dessert drink. Like I could tell he was really in a good mood when we went. Yeah, I love it. But they were so surprised. Yeah, so that was that's the long tail. Should I have gone to Northeast Stern? Should I have stayed in school? Like I tell the youth, don't waste your parents' money at our loans, Like it's really, I guess, do you want to go

I know, I'm like seeing friends that I have that are older drop their kids off at college. I know your sister's just dropping one of your nieces off at college.

It's like, nuts, Yeah, I got them. I got her a card at Shorthand. I mean, they're not paying me for this, but I'm telling you, they just have like such thoughtful things, like I know you're having a hard time, but I'm here for you.

Like what, like it's just so sweet. It's just so sweet.

Do they have a card that says congratulations on your podcast going on tour? Because guess what, guys, we're going on tour. I'm not going to get into it too much. We're always plugging our tour. But tonight, as of the really, well, you gotta keep plugging.

Because what happens is then someone goes, when are you here, and it's like, honey, we were there.

A month ago. Yeah, I know.

Stop fast forwarding, guys, you got to know when we're coming.

Tonight we're in Atlanta, so this very evening that you're listening to this podcast, if you're in Atlanta, come and come to our show alone. Everybody talking about how they need a friend to go. We've had so many people come to our shows alone. They meet friends. They'll stick you at a table with other people who came alone, or they'll stick you out a little group and you'll have fun. Everybody meets friends, they meet up again when we come back to town.

It's great.

And then tomorrow night we're in Charlotte, and then the next Thursday night we're in Raleigh.

Please come see us. Guys.

This is as south as we're going on this tour, so come and see us, and then check out That's Messed up live dot com for all of our other dates.

One more little thing I'd like.

To plug is that my husband is producing a scripted podcast for iHeartRadio and Imagine Entertainment. That's Ron Howartz company. I'm supposed to meet him on a zoom tomorrow we'll see what happens.

I'll report back. And it's really funny.

It's like a scripted, semi scripted, semi improvised podcast about the breakroom at a big box store like a Walmart, and we just talk about or we play all these different characters. I'm on it. It's called Employees Only. It's wherever you get podcasts. We are a bunch of characters, a bunch of funny stand up comedians, and we all are playing different characters and we just talk about.

The news of the week.

We have little relationships with each other. It's kind of just like a little fun sitcom. And the episodes are like twenty twenty five minutes long, so they're very easily digestible on a little errand. And I would love if you guys would listen give it a review. You know, it's over there on iHeartRadio, but also everywhere Apple, Spotify, all the places where podcasts live.

So that's my relief on it. We're out there, we're hustling, we're out there.

And if you're in New York, I'm doing Brooklyn October eleventh, a big bell House show that I'm.

Excited about am I opening? Are you in town? I don't know if you're going to be leaving or not.

No, I was gonna open you okay, fuck yeah, fuck yeah.

This is so I'll be doing. I'll be doing a couple of minutes. Everybody come see. Yeah, and then I might add one more friend. Then this will be fun.

Yeah.

I figure as much I figured you'd like, because I'll just do like ten or something.

Y'a'll have our pal host let me. I'll ask her before I.

A yeah, no, and a couple of our mutuals are already coming, they told me. So let's get this episode started, baby, Yeah, we've got a We've got this is a very god My friend that I was gonna ask to do the pod to open for me in Brooklyn is calling me right now.

It's a sign it's happening.

Hold on, I'm gonna answer you. We're starting the episode. I'm answering my friend. I've been ignoring her for days.

Don't go anywhere. We're We've got an awesome episode for you guys. You know I'm podcasting girl. We are doing Born Psychopath. I'm so excited. And this is for all the shameless fans as well. This is a little baby Carl and he's grown and he is evil. Okay, wait, what does character like on that show? I've only ever seen that guy in this they're all trouble.

Makers, like that show is a bunch of like trashy poor people in Chicago causing crimes in trouble.

But does he talk like in this, like with a dull affect kind of or like he sounds like almost like a surfer Cali guy to me, even when he's doing this character.

I remember he was like a young kid. I mean when it started, I think he was like a child child, and then he got bad and started. You know, that's what happens. They'll start as children and then they all be you know, get people pregnant or get pregnant, like the whole thing where you're.

That's why I stopped watching it.

Because Jeremy Allen White's character Lip got into college. He's like a secret genius. I was so happy for him. Then they fucked it up because of and I go, you know what, if you're not gonna let Lip go to college, I'm done watch.

I'm mad. I gave up.

I gave up after five seasons. I was like, I'm not fucking dealing with this. We can't have one little guy finished college. I'm done one little guy like and then they just made everyone in the into bad, bad, bad bad. But yeah, I don't know. I don't think he talk like this little Carl.

I don't know. Whatever.

We're starting out. We have a sassy babysitter. There's a nose piercing and a feather earring. Her hair is crispy, and the back we see some kids eating while she's on her phone wishing she had a better job. Her eyebrows are thin and she is smacking her gum so and in the at the table in the back, there's a little girl and boy and they're bickering like children do, and Irena is not having it, and she just like gives the girl more milk. The milk spills. Fuck, what's

No, Yeah, she gave you her a vail.

She cannot watch your dumb kids like I.

But you know what I was actually I don't know what the situation is with Arena, but I was talking to my friend at camp over the weekend or the week or whatever about OH pairs. If you have oh pairs and your house, they have to work a certain amount of hours, so sometimes you have to not that this is fucked up. You should obviously let her go to the concert. But I didn't realize that, like there's like minimums where it's like you have to hit these hours.

I don't know. They were just telling me. They're like, yeah, you have to hit these hours.

So, like their kids are in school for the day, so they sometimes make them work on the weekends so that they get like their free time is like during the day, but then on the weekends they have to work. Right nights they have to work. So maybe they're just like sorry, girl, you gotta get your hours in. It makes up these out. It's not like I don't know. I don't even think she's an no pair. I don't think she lives with them. I was just it was just came to my mind.

I don't know, but Irena does not seem like an no pair. She is not teaching them any languages. She is really pissed to be there. I would say she is a woman after my own heart, Like she's not happy here. She came to this country. She's probably trying to get a visa going, and like she's figuring it out, like does this is not her passion. She's not hanging out from Ireland, you know, for an adventure. She is trying to get the fuck out of this job, to

I'm with him.

And I was listening to a different podcast with like a friend of mine and she was as a teacher and as a caregiver.

Don't you hate the snitches too?

Like no snitch, no one that is a hattletail, Like, you're not winning the hearts of the adults.

The adults now also think you're a loser.

So shout out to les culchursays with greta title man, because.

I agree with that. So the mom is walking out.

The door with the girl and the boys like, I want dad to take me to school, and it's like, well he's gone, babe.

He doesn't like you, like they all don't.

Want to be with you. The sitter, your mom, your dad, they all don't like you at all. So finally he's like, fine, then mom will take me, and the little girl says, no, that's not fair.

I want mom to take me.

You know she took you yesterday, and he flips out nothing's ever fair, nothing has.

Ever for him.

So the mom is like fine, So they switch, so IRENA's gonna take the daughter and then Henry we find out as the boy, and the mom's gonna take him, and then we also find out what.

Oh, no, I was just gonna say, do you know this actress Hope Davis?

No, it's the mom. No, oh, I love to say something about her.

Yes, yes, well people probably have seen her in Succession, which I don't watch.

But she was just in a bunch of episodes of Succession, I guess.

But I watched her in this wild, fucking weird show called Wayward Pines, and I really like her.

I think she's a great actress. She's been in a lot of shit. I don't know.

She feels like a I can't I can't think of like what other actress she reminds me of, but she feels like she works a lot. She's like in Perry Mason and like in all this kind of shit, like a lot of prestige television. But anyway, I was wondering if you knew her from anything because I remember her well.

No, and I think her care. I mean, I feel bad for these people, I guess, but her care. I was just so annoyed at their family unit. I didn't look into them any further. I didn't even look at what Carl's doing today. I don't even know his real name. I keep calling him Carl, like I don't. I have no idea, I have no idea.

Ethan Kotowski is this guy's name, okay, and is working up to let's see Ethan.

Oh my god.

His picture on his IMDb is fashion he Shameless one hundred and thirty four episodes and then he readid this, and then he has only had a couple of credits since then in twenty twenty two.

But he's got something coming out and coming up. I don't know. Yeah, actually it seems like he has. He doesn't have that many credits. Maybe he went to college.

I mean, Shameless is ten or eleven seasons, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, maybe it's maybe it's good to get a nice, healthy break so you don't end up like I don't even know.

I'm not giving this simple.

The IMDb says he started doing ads when he was four as a way for him and his mom to spend time together.

Aa. That's cute. I love that. That is cute.

But the mom's like, there's a great way we could spend time together where you make our family a lot of money come.

Into this audition room. So anyways, this so this is what that's we got a little.

Career corner moment, and now we're back.

The nanny Irena is going to take Ruby, the daughter to school, and the mom is gonna take Henry to school, and that is what happened. And then right when Irena is gonna zip up the jacket, this little bitch has to pee and Irena is mad. She's like, what the fuck, I just put new tights on you, And the Mom's like, oh, come on, she always does this. So the Henry and Mom leave and IRENA's shaking her head and chewing her gum as she sends Ruby to the bathroom.

But now we cut to Ruby.

She's in a medical office and she's talking about how her head hurts and she has a bump and her tummy hurts, and when the doctor picks up the shirt, there is a huge bruise on her side, like giant, giant bruise. And we cut straight to Tomorrow, who is with his son, but the son doesn't know it. His name is Gil, so it's a nephew. It's uncle Lamarro. There's a lot of drama. Nothing's ever simple with Amorrow. And he's talking to his nephew's slash sons class about

Plan is set. They will be watching hockey. Now.

Tomorrow enters the precinct and Benson asks how his son is, and Tomorrow goes, well, he doesn't know he's my son, but yeah, he's fine. So they're at the doctor's office now, and the mom is there and the dad is coming in from Hartford, which is wild. Usually people live in Connecticut and come in for a job. So the fact that he lives in Manhattan and goes to Connecticut for work,

Like the insurance companies are, yeah, yeah, like a lot of insurance companies are, like Base. It used to be like a big insurance city.

And where do they all go now? I don't know. My insurance company's out of Texas.

I think, well, we'll see what happens because you know, my niece will be starting at your university soon. I know.

Oh my god, oh my gosh, I need to find out. I leave immediately.

She we're in the time machine or whatever we're recording, who knows, but she is leaving like tomorrow for school. But what I like about that university is that they're getting ten days before classes start, so they ask for them to get there, and then classes don't start till after labor Day.

Yeah, we did like a week, but ten days. It's great. Yeah, maybe it's just a week or but that made nice. That's really nice.

Yeah, because you get to like, yeah, you like meet people, you go to parties and stuff. But tell her that all the parties during that first week are kind of like week and then they get better.

Well, yeah, no one knows each other. Yeah, and it's not even the party on campus. Yeah, okay, cute.

Yeah, you got to text her and see what dor she's Oh my god, I'm not going to right now, I know. So, you know, she's holding an ice pack to her head and lying to Benson about how she just fell, and then she says that she was with the monster and what did the monster do? Benson asks, and the monster pushed her until to shut up, and Benson nods, and then we just have credit time, so you know, there's a lot going on. They're giving us a lot, and we don't know who is this monster.

That's what you pay the big bucks for this kind of knowledge.

So the mom is like, what the fuck? Why are the police here? We are good parents. We live on the Upper West Side, And Tomorrow's like, ellollo, okay, so tell us about your morning, and she recaps the morning and Benson is interrupting and the mom is like what happened? And she's like, why don't you tell us? And the

Kids are at school.

Then we find out Ruby, the daughter, she is having a lot of accidents, you know, peace situations, and we know from watching SVU if you pee a lot, you are being molested.

So she.

But the mom is crazy, and the mom goes, okay, but we're just gonna take her to piano lessons, and Henry has swim and Benson's like, you cannot take her to piano classes. She's clearly injured, she's clearly abused and traumatized. She doesn't have to fucking play piano today. I just hate these parents and it's really hard for me to have sympathy for them for this whole episode.

But whatever, I hate the dad a lot. Oh, the dad is infuriating. I infuriating.

So then Benson of course is like, cancel the lesson and someone needs to bring Henry here. So we're back with the feather earing illegal nanny, and Rollins is asking her question, while a baby sits in a chair trap toy, what are those called?

I call it an office? Wait, you mean like where they stand up and they play.

Yeah, yeah, I like that. Yeah, the kids are in the office doing their paperwork. Yeah. Irena says that Ruby just fell down the stairs and she thought everything was fine, and they're like, wait, come again, and she's like, listen.

The mom wents a shower, milk was spilled.

I sent Ruby to get new tights, and while I went to the laundry room, I heard her crying. And they're like, so you didn't see her fall halfway down the stairs or anything. She goes no, But then they're questioning why she didn't tell the mother, and she goes, I don't know.

She said she was fine.

Like why am I going to involve this shitty mom into all of this? So Rollins asks her where Henry was during all of this, and they say that he was just sitting eating waffles, smiling, and you shouldn't be smiling on your own. That's unless you see a cute puppy. If you're just sitting eating a waffle smiling.

No independent smiling.

No no, no, no, no, no, no, something's wrong. I actually I was sitting out on a patio yesterday and these two dogs came up and I go, oh, we're about to get These are such cute little Pomeranians.

And it's like she knew. She came up to us and did a little show.

It's like so cool when you know that the puppy knows about its power. And then when the puppy walked away, it turned its head to be like bye girls, like it was a supermodel. Anyways, the mom walks in panicked, like, oh my god, what is going on? Why are the cops here? And this is the mom of this other child that she's babysitting in the building, And her apartment seems way shittier than the other families. So I think Henry and Ruby's parents are in the penthouse and then

But yeah, it's just very stark difference. I would say.

Finn and Rollins introduced themselves and the mom grabs her baby and is like, what the fuck, and they're just like, this is just a routine matter. But the mom turns and glares at their illegal nanny, and you know, the nanny is squirming uncomfortably.

She'd like to stay in the country.

And we're at the corkboard hour at the precinct and the photos of the family are up on it and they're just having a little brainstorming meeting. There's severe bruising and a cracked rib and a monster So those are the clues, and the records show a bunch of old bruises, fractures, four er visits in the last year. That's a concussion of finger pinched in a door, and two skull burns. I don't even know if skull burn in. That doesn't sound good. And then what do we know about the family?

She's a VP at AMX.

Hello baby, I'm a customer and he's a systems engineer with Amtrak. Okay, so I don't know what he was doing in fucking Hartford. Then no, but he's a systems engineer. Maybe there was like he had to fix a train or something, and I would like to say this might be disgusting, but I love an Amtrak hot dog.

I really do.

Interesting if I get to have an Amtrak hot dog, I'm in a good mood, like I really I really enjoy that. And it is gross that you know that they're steamed and they're little wet, but they're perfectly wet in a in a sick way. So anyways, this couple's been married for fourteen years and Henry is ten years old.

With like why is Arena does she split with another family?

Yeah, because these kids go to school, and I think when the kids go to school, she goes to this other family during the day with the baby and then picks the kids up.

So it's like a perfect kind of Okay.

Because I was watching it, I was like, wait, why is there another mom?

Like Okay, so I got it. Yeah, is that so shocking to you? No?

I just didn't figure it out and was like wanted confirmation you're a fucking idiot. Okay, but so yeah, this other mom who's kind of poor has no issues with her.

But also I am curious at everyone's job. I don't know. I love everything. I want to know everything about everybody.

Craigan wants to talk to you know, cause I used to babysit in these areas.

I babysit.

I got to Columbia professors, so I'm really I'm on IRENA's side and all of this.

I used to do.

I used to Also, I was a babysitter on the Upper West, Upper East all over Yeah, oh god.

The professor's apartments were so long and gorgeous and wooden and sexy, and their kids were all like I remember, these two kids did a breakdance competition in front of me, and I'm like, wow, you guys have no shame, Like you know, you're really loved in this household.

Like well, think of lu Adela SEPs whose son breakdanced on national television and they kept it in a teacher who had had a teacher, a breakdancing teacher.

You're totally right, I just like loved I loved these kids. The dad was an author and I read his books and they were good, like it did feel cool doing the professor's kid. And then the other Upper West Side story I have, it was like a smaller apartment a new family, but they were Orthodox Jews. But it's not like they could tell me you're watching Jews today, you know, as a backup nanny. So I had randoms and so I brought shrimp fried Rice's my lunch and they made me eat it outside in the hallway.

So that's, oh my god.

Yeah, so it's like, why don't you give me a heads up if it's a kosher home. But also the chance of me bringing shrimp into this kosher home was pretty fucked up too.

But my baby sat on the Upper West Side for a very well known director's daughter for her children, and their apartment was just a full floor overlooking Central Park, just the elevator opens, full floor, like huge, beautiful apartment. They were, They were cool, and she didn't work. She was just like my grandfather. My father is this massive director. I'll tell you off who it is.

But okay, back to the episode.

Back to the episode or babysitting memories are done.

No, JK.

I also babysat for a family up there. She taught music and piano at Colombia. Oh ooh, I know, but it's cool because the professors get those apartments.

Yeah, like a college gives her to them. Yeah. I just think that's so cool.

Yeah, my aunt used to rent one of her apartments on the Upper West to Columbia because they will pay anything for professors.

It's so badass.

Craigan wants to talk to the older brother, Henry, so they're like, let's talk to Henry and see what's up.

Let's talk to neighbors. Teachers.

Dorman like, we need to find out who the smile and who's hurting little Ruby. So we're at the child Advocacy Center where Henry's explaining what happened. He was just eating. He was just eating olives, no waffles. He's a child.

It's breakfast.

He was eating waffles and just before he heard Ruby yell. They ask where Irena was, and he looks down and says he doesn't think he should talk about it. And he says he went to the living room after he heard his sister yell and saw Irena at the top of the stairs, and Irena was trying to get Ruby's tights. On and Ruby was cranky, and he pauses and keeps looking down, and Benson's like, come on, you can tell us. And he's said that Irena made her mad face and

I don't know, I know what's funny. As I was just listening to Bitch sessh. I don't really listen anymore

Well, because I used to do that.

There used to be a show in Chicago Clued Once upon a Lifetime, Yeah, and we would like watch those movies. I watched the one with Tory Spelling that was a cheerleader or a killer dead or she was.

The murder the one where that's called mother, May I Sleep with Danger?

Is that? But she was a cheerleader in it right.

Well, there's I don't know, I don't remember, but there's one where she has like a boyfriend who's like just increasingly becomes like abusive, and the mom is like, something's up with him, and she's like, mom, shut up, you just won't let me be in love. And like it's like the guy is psycho and like tries to kill her.

Oh my god, I can't have you, no one, can you know the Yush classic. Amaro's like you sure it wasn't an accident and he goes no, because Irena told Ruby to shut up and pushed her, and he says, saying shut up is not nice, and then he ran back to the table and Irena came in and got ice and she's like please, and he goes, please, don't tell my mom. My dad gets mad every time we have to change nanny's and pip Ackox is there, Hello, friend of the pod.

Hi, Pips.

So Craigan and her are watching the conversation and they believe that this is credible. This boy is credible, and we need to go get Irena and we don't need another bad nanny headline is what Pippa says. We go to the residence of Adam Burke, who's also a comedian in Chicago that I know, but hopefully not the same.

And he's holding a fluffy Adam too.

Yeah, And he's holding a fluffy little dog and his son Toby plays with Henry and then nanny walks him down. And then but when they ask about the nanny, he goes which one? They go through, so many nannies. And at this point little Toby walks into frame to complain about his Xbox not working, and the dad asked Toby if he knows the nanny's name, and he goes, yeah, Rina, she's always texting.

We hate her, and it's like okay, And then.

Upstairs you want your nanny to fucking text and not bother you, like, let you go do whatever.

And like just text.

No, no, no, no, she is on her phone all day and not watching the children. Right. But if you're the kid, Oh yes, I thought you meant the parents, I'm like, no, she's not texting them.

No.

No.

If you're like a kid, aren't you just like, yeah, my nanny's fucking texting.

Who cares? I don't know because some well.

This episode is called born Psychopath, but I maybe set for boy, like if the boy, if the kids want attention from you, But also some kids are just tattletales and love rules, like I think we know a kid that would tell I think we know a kid who would not be happy if the.

Race is not necessari sure you know what I mean.

It'd be like I mean I had a kid once, say, my mom says you eat too many bananas and you don't work hard in that Oh yes, you've told me that, And.

It's like I'm watching your kids.

I can't have one of your bananas, your piece of shit, they're twenty cents, Like, let me fucking have a banana. Your kids sucks? Okay, so.

Is that merch?

But I mean, if I've already said the story in the pod, who cares No? Like these kids, these two boys, they were assigned chores. And I never grew up with chores, like I think kids should just be free, so I would volunteer.

I was like, you guys, go play, go have fun.

I'll put the dishes away, and the older kid would go, no, that is my brother's chores. You can't do it, Like he would get mad that I was doing their chores, you know. Or if I said let's play outside or you could do it, they're like, we have to do our homework. Like they loved rules. It was weird, and they wouldn't share. They would sell toys to each other. And once you sold your toy or your sibling, you

Oh yeah, and they're like you had burn it.

This kid begged for a guitar, got a guitar, and then when he would get in trouble, they would take the guitar away from him, and it's like that's stupid, Like that's an art you have to practice, like you need to teach a kid how to practice the guitar, you know, yeah, you don't take it away from I just hated them. And at the end, the boys said, you're the worst babysitter we've ever had at the end of the school year, and I said, you're the worst

Yeah, I wonder where they are.

Like I babysat kids in New York that are like fully in college now, Like it's crazy.

I mean there's a couple kids where I really loved them and I wish I knew where they were. But these kids, I'm like, you're you're probably I can't.

There are probably kids.

Who are who don't believe in free lunch at school, you know what I mean, why should my family have to pay for your bad lifestyle.

I can't, but you can always tell.

Like I rarely had a kid that was shitty, and I was like your parents rule. You know, like if I had a kid that was like had a behavior problem, it's because like their mom or their dad was like oozing like neuroses and was like so high strung or like something was up with the parents. You know, like I could always in my in my experience, absolutely you could tell.

No, it is really wild to be in people's homes and they're just trusting you, and it's like you don't even know me.

It's wild.

I'm with your five year old or fore month, like what because I I ah, whatever.

So I know.

I met I baby stuff for this little girl who I loved so much, and her family was great, her parents were great. But I met them at a Starbucks and they were just like they just like let me pick up the baby. She was like nine months old, and they were just like, yeah, we can just tell the way you are with her like that you're good. So when can you start? And we were like okay.

And that's how I found them.

And I met them at a Starbucks, picked up their baby and they were like, this is it, Kara.

Did you hear about the case I think in the UK where a nurse was killing babies.

My my Jared just told me about that. I haven't looked into it, but he said, like, glorify it's the nurse of death, but for killing babies.

Like a neonatal nurse. What why? Yeah?

I mean when when it was Jane Jane Krakowski doing it, we knew it was because her mother, uh you know, was never there for her.

But yes, but when we like when it's older, yeah, when it's just not that humans are worth less than babies, like we're all important, but the baby thing makes it sicker. I'm sorry, Like, I you know, we covered a case where it was a VFW hospital, which is upsetting of course, but you're murdering babies and just thinking about these parents, it's just it's really upsetting.

Horrible, Oh my god, do you know what I googled last night just because I was I was watching this episode and I was thinking of nanny's and like, kids, do you remember were you in New York in twenty twelve? No, that was way before your time, right, a few years before. Yeah, this nanny killed these two kids like five blocks from where I lived, like on the Upper West Side. I

Oh what the fuck?

So horrible, And I bet all these doctors nothing will happen to them, all these nothing will happen to them.

Yeah, and they showed them the baby in a way that like didn't show that the baby was to get Like I think they like showed them the baby to be like okay, here's the baby. It's it didn't make it, but like didn't show them that the baby was like decapitated, like horrible, and she.

Was begging for a sea they wouldn't give it to her. You killed their fucking baby. Like I just this is this episode's hard enough. And I don't know why I keep bringing up all these baby murderers, but like, oh fuck, fuck these doctors, and I wanna I want to keep close tabs on that case to find out what happens, because I these doctors are so protected.

They're so protected.

Yeah, we've covered the cases about the molestation and the boards and that they just it's really upsetting. Listen, we got to get back to this episode. I'm so sorry all these dead baby aside. We're doing a lot of asides. We are, but we haven't seen each other in a really long time, so it's kind of we're.

Just gonna get a jump on one this week, guys. Sorry about it up.

Sarahs Benson is going through Ruby's room and finds the milk tights drying, and the mom is like, fuck, this is a nightmare. She had references in everything, and it's like, is anyone using references or are you all giving your best friend's phone number. I've never used a real reference, and my goddamn luck.

Literally two minutes ago, when we took a minute break on this podcast, I texted a girl I've never met and said, are you free Saturday to watch my kids? Because because I got her from a trusted babysitter, she's a friend of her.

So I'm like, where are you going on Saturday? I don't know.

I just wanted to get a babysitter and do something.

Let's do something, So did you, so, Benson asked if she knew any of the references, and I thought about you immediately, She goes, nope, I found it on the mom groups on the internet.

I thought about myself immediately.

Yeah, yeah, And Benson's like, okay, well, can we get

They go.

Henry said that he saw you push Ruby down the stairs, and she goes. He said that to you, he is a mean little boy. Ruby calls him the monster ding ding ding ding. Okay, so now the monster thing is coming back, and Ruby's playing a keyboard right above the stairs, and this house looks so dangerous. So it's like glass banister vibe and this house is not kidproof at all. A picture just was circulating about Carol of Carol Radzivill's

It was reminding me so great wild.

I want to be fully protected on any stairs. I want full protection walls. I want to be caved in. I want it soft, like I make it a nine closed slide that I can just go down.

Like.

Yeah, I don't need fashion stairs. I don't need highly architectured stairs. I don't need glass.

I don't.

It's really bonkers to me, especially with kids. But Henry's watching her play the keyboard and he's playing video game, like a handheld video game thing, and the mom is which I'm thing of getting I want to get a twitch, a switch. I want to get a switch. I heard you can play, you know, like Mario on the plane.

Oh yeah.

The mom is downstairs looking up, telling them it's almost bedtime, and Amaro walks in to join the mom and Benson and asks what games Henry and Ruby play together?

Like Monster?

And the mom goes, oh, yeah, sometimes, and then he pushes does he resent his little sister? And she's like, oh, big time. Even the school said something. But she asked if Henry did this and he said no, and he cried and he blamed, and Benson goes, but isn't your son a liar like all of the other injuries. He was home, wasn't he? And she's breathing more rushed and starts blabbering about the finger in the door incident, and Henry was in his room smiling, just like he was

It is funny.

It reminds me of Bart Simpson in the episode with the pool. I don't remember what it's called, but it is. I think it's the season premiere of season six. Okay, so now we gotta but I don't but I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I'm not sure, but there's like a weird pool whatever.

Bart looks creepy.

So now we got to talk to him with a pair of present and he's a great little actor.

He looks crazed as.

Hell, but not answering Tomorrow and the mom is like, just tell him what happened with Ruby, and he's like, you think I'm a liar? And Tomorrow looks stunned and sighs and goes, well, maybe you were scared you'd get in trouble, but we know that you lied, and Henry clocks the camera goes, oh, you're recording this, and they go yeah, for sure, so you don't have to answer the same questions again and again. And he says that she stopped crying and it didn't hurt her, So what's the big deal.

Yeah, I pushed her down the stairs.

Shees fine, and his reasoning is she stopped crying when Irena came over, so it must have not hurt that much. And then we hear little Ruby's voice said, Henry spilled my milk and blamed me, and over his sociopath face. We follow the voice to a more cozy room where Benson is with Rollins and the dad, and she continues that Irena sent her upstairs to change her tights. When she came back, he was hiding and popped out, screamed boo really.

Loud, and then pushed her.

And the dad is like, well, maybe he was just playing monster, and Ruby's like, no, motherfucker, because this time he had his arm out. It was like in her face, so he like pushed her using her face. And it cuts to Henry and he's like, whatever, it wasn't that hard. It was just the jostle. And it's like, what child knows the word jostle. I'm just a jostel, Like, that's not a chill word. Amaro's like, why did you jostle at her? Because you were mad at Ruby? He goes, no,

And he says, I wasn't mad.

It was an experiment and wanted to see if she would roll all the way down or stop, and she did. She rolled most of the way head over legs on an angle, so she hit the landing and stopped, and Tomorrow and the mom make eye contact like and Benson asked Ruby if he's hurt her before, and that is a yes. Ruby then wants to stop the conversation because she doesn't want him to be in trouble. So she really loves her brother and that is cute, but he is crazy.

She also has a red.

Little plastic bow headband that I am jealous of. And then the giraffe behind her in this giant like state funded room. It's like the from Fao Schwartz. How did the department afford that? Was it a toy drive? That is an expensive giraffe? I know that giraffe, Benson, I

She is not.

She's in school to be one, but she does have a master's not good enough, and it's a school that's open minded, hippie dippy vibes, and Finn and Rollins are just not into it. They ask how Henry is doing in school, and she thinks some days like we turn a corner, but then he'll always just kind of throw a desk the next day. But she says that he's

Abusing your daughter.

Yeah, this is like the Upper west Side Duggert family, Like you cannot ignore your son's issues because you're scared of for his future when he is physically assaulting your daughter.

And I wonder if they would think the same if it was an older daughter of abusing a younger boy.

I wonder if it's like gendered a little bit too.

Like oh, he's just being a boy, you know, like let him do his thing.

They're just fighting like siblings. No, I mean not to get to but yes, this is it. We always prioritize men's feelings, men's futures, men's career, men's reputation over the true safety of children, women girls all the time. Like it's really appalling, and this episode does such a great job of making me flip out with anger. But the school's only until fifth grade, and middle schools are so competitive, so they don't want him to be labeled with issues

We can't find the right convo.

And Finn asks if he has hurt kids in school, and she goes, yeah, of course, but he knows it's unacceptable. He is so smart, he's just bored, and they just keep finding loopholes for him.

But he's violent.

So now we have Pippa, who's always on the wrong side of history, no matter how much we love her. So she says, if this kid is that bad, there would be a paper trail, and there's not a paper trail, so there's nothing we can do, and Finn goes, oh, trust if he lived in the projects, there would be a fucking you know, he'd be in the system by now.

Also, is the daughter's hospital record not a paper trail? Like sh doesn't give a bunch of VR visits, Like that's a paper trail.

Amazing point, Kara, and so Rollins jumps in and she goes, oh, he has his guidance counselor snode and they're not testing him and just playing around with meds. And Amoro defends the parents for not doing anything. He's like, I mean, a diagnosis stays on your record, and Benson goes, whatever, I mean. Henry needs help, so we need to figure out a way to get him help. PIPA's like, okay, when you were there, how was it any signs of neglect abuse? And they say no, because there's organic food

Well, she's always on the wrong side. I think Pipa grows a little bit like later.

She's just such.

She's like a defense attorney working for the state. It's weird.

Yeah, well, somebody has to go against the squad, right, so that's like.

What her But yeah, isn't it about protecting But I just don't understand why it's not about protecting Ruby and why it's protecting Henry.

Oh for sure, for sure. Just in like the.

Show Realm, I feel like her role is usually to be like, well, I don't know about that.

And then they have to like go against her, you know. Yeah,

Deal with it.

He's like, I know, but I hate lying to him and he has a half sister and I want him to know her. And she's like, what you want to just pop out of nowhere and tell him it's too much?

And how will he?

Like? How do we know you're not going to disappear again? And he goes, I'm not going anywhere, and then we have little Gil run down. He's in a jersey, he's so cute. He's like so excited to go to the game. Thanks for that storyline. We could care less. And now we're back to the Upper West Side, and the dad is pissed and is like a psychiatrist, Hell no, he doesn't want his kid to turn into a drug addicted robot.

Why don't you just go to sleep? He says, I'm not tired.

He is saying he doesn't want to go to bed, and classic mom is like, well, you have to go to bed. So Henry takes a knife from under his pillow and says no, and the mom is stern and says, give me back the knife right now, puts her hand out. He cuts her hand and she deserves it and I don't feel bad for you. So the mom is bleeding and she takes the knife and runs off, and Henry's face gives no emotions. So she's at the hospital with her hand wrap. Benson runs in. The mong goes, it's

Stop lying.

He says no, it was her fault, and the dad isn't like in his screaming at the sun.

He starts yelling back.

The dad grips him and holds him, and Ruby walks in and goes, where's mommy, and Rollins is like, hey, while you go tuck your daughter back into bed and I'll stay here with your little demon son. And the dad is worried, and Rollin's goes, don't worry. I mean I am a cop and I do have a gun. So she turns to him and asks if he wants to talk, and you know, baby Henry, he just wants one thing. Can I hold your gun? And she goes,

And it's like you could have admitted this days ago. Yeah.

She says that he tells her, Mommy, you hate me, and she does hate him at times, and she feels bad that she hates her own son. And finally we get Beadi Wong flew in from Oklahome so Ori a little.

Bit of a Long Hair. That song is copy written, Please don't sing that on the podcast. He's got like sort of long hair, doesn't he.

He reminds me of Old Country for no Old Men, that haircut with Javier Gardak.

What did I say, Old Country for old Men? I think something like that good movie, good movie.

But so yeah, so Beatty Wong's here and he's you know, he's walking in to talk to Henry and they're sitting at a tiny table.

They're gonna chat. Wong brings a bin.

Of action figures, asks who his favorite is, and Henry loves all the villains and he loves how they kill everybody. And he is a violent killer. But he's also with toys and that's kind of wild, you know. So he starts like playing with action figures, which mostly looks like him banging them together, and Wong is kind of off put by it. And then Henry goes, well, now he's dead, he can't do anything, and I don't like him anymore. And Wong goes from dislike to oh, this boy is

I just love Vermont so oh much. Burlington is the bus Church Street. Maybe we're gonna be there, I know.

I just it made me love maple because now I love maple donuts and everything.

Oh my god, how cute.

So my parents had their wedding anniversary and I postmated them or seamless or whatever, who cares.

None of them are giving us money.

I use the food delivery app to send them Molly's cupcakes, which are center filled delicious cupcakes, and then not knowing, my sister sent them pizza, sushi and coconut shrimp, like their favorite things. So I just love that the two sisters gave them savory and sweet and like knowing.

Full yeah, a full Schmorgas board. I love that because you know, my dad wasn't gonna do anything romantic.

So I sent my mom Jenny's ice cream for her birthday, like.

Six pints, and she texted me and was like they're gone.

After like a couple of days, they plowed through them.

I don't even know if I've had Jenny's, but I know it's like the sexy, expensive one, so I would like to try it. Yeah, I've tried Van Lewin, but I've never tried Guess what, there's a Van Lewin moving into my hometown. Our little strip of stores on the main strip. We used to never have any chains.

Duncan Donuts was the only chain we had, and now in Lewin Baby. But now we have Jay Crue, we have Polo, Ralf Lauren, we have tons of chains.

The whole place has changed now. But a lot that you said, Lauren, Oh, Rolf Lauren.

You really jazzed him up. Is he a Jew? Or is Armani a Jew? I forgot one of them is Jewish.

Though I think Rolf Lauren might be Jewish. I don't think Harmani is. Yeah, you're right, yeah, Ralph Lauren, Ralph Lauren. Beatie Wong is just telling us that there is a place that services kids with this kind of diagnosis, and Wang is willing to talk to the parents about the program, and if they're against it, he just advises that they should get a safe room. So now we have Wangamorrow and Benson at this nice sess penthouse apartment and the

But I think that's kind of what they're setting up that, Like, I mean, I'm going to get into it in the real crime, but like there's kind of there. If there's not a abuse factor, then there's usually some kind of hereditary factor. And the fact that the dad like readily is like, oh yeah, I was filled with rage as a kid also, and the mom says it too.

The mom's like, oh yeah, so was my husband.

Like they're both rage little raged children, you know, Like I think they're setting it up that maybe the husband's not a full psychopath, but that his anger problems have sort of maybe engendered this in the child.

But I don't know, you know what I say, lock his ass up to.

Yeah, so he's blaming them for his kid being worse, and the mom says, don't blame them, And the dad has some humanity and is like, I just don't want him to be alone in a cell, thinking we abandon him, and the mom is like, he's not afraid of us

I just really enjoyed his acting here.

And obviously just can't deal with all this, dude, And it's like, exactly, dude, none of the things are gonna work. You can't be mad when they want to lock him up, and also mad when they suggest other options, and we're saying, your kid is a monster, so what do you want. You should have done something to protect your daughter sooner, and Benson says, we're just trying to say that he needs more support than what you are able to provide,

Is the scoop that we get.

But the fire was deliberate, and the match heads confirmed that, like who did the fire? And then Ruby was tied to the fucking bed and the mom was locked in a room. Ruby's okay, thank goodness, but nobody can find Henry.

Where the fuck did he go there?

He did not leave on any of the cameras, so he is in the building, so they have to trap him they got to track him down and he's either in the playroom of the building or he has one friend named Toby so and what fucking sparked all this? And they told him about Vermont and he lost it, So that's what started it. There was a huge tantrum. The dad left for a work emergency. What is a bigger emergency than your sociopathic son flipping out about being

Delaware? Who cares? So the mom is hysterical.

Obviously she stays with Ruby and as Benson runs to find him, she's like, be careful. Henry just doesn't understand. He does, he does understand he's a psychopath. So this episode shows the delusion and denial of mothering boys, and nobody cares about Ruby here at all. Again, this is the problem of egg.

Do you think this mom is just like posting photos of her son setting a fire with like hashtag boy mom.

Yeah.

My thing is I hate when women are blamed for the actions of men. But then I do hate boy moms that caught all their sons and then make rapists out of them, and so like, I just don't know, I don't like blaming mothers or any women for men's mistakes, but it is like an issue where these moms are so obsessed with their sons and they're like, it's the evidence is he knows what he's doing. Yeah, you don't

We have this little child all marks the jamask skullburns.

We don't even know what those are. This girl has skullburns, and we're like, is.

Henry gonna be okay?

This is a farce? Like is this a satire? I feel like I'm in an alternate universe. Finn and Amanda hit up Toby's place and the dad answers the door and he's like, what the fuck they're in Toby's room? Who cares? And so Rollins runs and the dad goes chill out. They're telling if there's no screaming, they're fine. So Finn is like, did you not hear the sirens? He goes, yeah, the doorman said everything was under control. Amanda enters Toby's room.

Guess what.

Nobody's there. We hear him in the closet. He is crying. He's tied up with a pillow case on his head like it's Abu grabe.

Okay.

So he's doing historical torture in the closet of this child's room. And the boy goes, he was hurting snowball, and so then they go and fuck they Snowball is drowned in the tub. We do not see it, but we see the leash. You see the leash tied to the faucet. The tub is overflowing, and fing goes, don't go in there. So Toby says that Henry threatened to shoot him with his dad's gun, and he goes, no, it's locked in my study in the safe. But Toby

Oh my god.

And he's holding a kid hostage in a tunnel tube toy and he's holding the kid with the fucking gun Amaro asks for thank god he didn't hurt Toby honestly. Tomorrow asks for the gun and it's like, yeah, no, Henry's not going to give you a gun. Bentson walks in from behind with the gun and I don't think Henry knows. I'm not really sure what's going down. His name is Sam, the little boy. He has developmental delays, Henry says, and I look. The mom's like he doesn't

Yeah.

And Tomorrow goes, why don't you just let him go and the big boys can chat. That does not work, and he's just trying to let him, like, make him let go of Sam.

And they come out of the tunnel.

There's a tunnel play place and Tomorrow snatches up Sam runs him to Benson. Henry points the gun at them and says, you stay. She goes and he's like, is my mom and dad mad at me? And Omarro says, they're upset, but we don't even know that because the dad had a work emergency, So you know, your kid's just setting fires to an apartment building and holding the past stitch with a gun.

But what happened on the amtrak?

So then Henry is like, I mean I called nine one one when the smoke got bad, and Tomorrow goes and that was a good job, you little psycho. And he wants Tomorrow's gone and starts screaming, you promise, you promise, give me the gun.

And It's like, you.

Already have a gun, why do you need another gun? Yeah, So they go back and forth. Amorrow is scared and Henry's like, I wonder what would happen if I shot you out of blood? Would your brains come out of your forehead? And Amorro says, fine, here, I'll show you my gun now. He empties the clip and then asks for Henry's gun, but instead he shoots Tomorrow. But remember the bullet proof vest from the cold open. He's pretty,

Should have picked Vermont, idiot.

So anyways, Amorrow is shirtless and wounded at the hospital with Benson standing with him, happy he's alive.

The vest is king.

Benson is mad that the little gun Hot Potato game that they played, swapping the guns, and Tomorrow just goes, I wasn't about to shoot a fucking ten year old, okay if he's white, Okay.

So Gil and.

Cynthia run in and they're worried about him, and they're happy, and he intros them to Benson. It's all very sweet, and so Benson leaves to give them a moment, and Cynthia decides, honestly, Gil and you should have a Manda man talk, and so Benson and Cynthia go out for a cup of coffee. Gil and Tomorrow smile at each other. Now we're back to the parents of the Year watching through the glasses. Rollins talks to their evil son. He

His dad hug him.

And then as the dad is cradling him, we see the other side of the hug and it's Henry who is not sorry at all. He just looks ahead with his dead, evil eyes, no tears, And that's Dick Wolf baby.

Oof chilling, chilling, Oh boy, chilling, it's not chilling.

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All right, we'll be right back. We're going to get into the true crime. Okay, we're back. So yeah, obviously true crime is a weird It's like it's like a true story kind of like this case is loosely based on the Beth Thomas case, which is not really even a case. It's In nineteen ninety a producer named Gabby Monet made a short documentary piece called Child of Rage, A Story of Abuse, which is the story of Beth Thomas.

It was on HBO.

It was part of the America Undercover series that they did at the time. So in this it's like a thirty minute doc right. So in this piece, a therapist named Ken Maggott interviews Beth, who at the time is six and a half years old.

It is so sad and dark.

It will be linked in our sources if you feel like watching it. But I did watch it for you to tell you about it, because but it was very sad and I watched it until the wee hours of the morning last night. So he starts off talking about she's really sweet and cute. She's got a little Southern accent, big eyes, She's very articulate, and like talks pretty clearly, and she tells the truth really like I mean, she doesn't really go I don't know, like she kind of

So that's how this opens up. Then we go back.

She doesn't seem like a liar, you know what I mean, at least right being upfront, She's like, yeah, I want to kill everybody, and I'll put a needle in your eye.

Yeah, exactly. She's not being like, no, it was an accident. I was holding the pin and we were wrestling. Like.

She's just like, yeah, I don't want people to be around me because I was hurt and ill, and I want to kill people.

Beth's father then.

She is caring, so she does know she wants to kill him, but she seems like she knows it's wrong or something like, I'm so curious.

It's hard to say. It's hard to say. It's hard to say whether she knows it's wrong or not.

But she knows that she was hurt and that that's what Maybe she's also speaking because she's had therapy before. Maybe she's like speaking regurgitating things people have told her. But essentially what happened was Beth's father she was adopted. So Beth's father, Tim was a minister of a small Methodist church in the South. Him and his wife Julie were married for twelve years unable to have their own children,

They thought, that.

Seems like a dream, like to be able to adopt like children that young siblings together. I mean that like totally for someone that wants to adopt, that seems like such a kind of perfect Yeah, exactly.

And they said too, they were like, we thought it was a miracle, like we had out all these friends that had been on waiting lists for years and years, and here we were getting two kids, like, oh my gosh. And then the narrator goes their dream became a nightmare when they realized that Beth and Jonathan had severe emotional problems. The narrator is very datelining in this. They started to learn more and more about the kid's background. So the mother died when Beth was one and little Jonathan was

So the mother passed away.

I don't know how the father kept them, the biological father, and he was not a good person. He did not feed them properly, did not take care of them, and he severely physically and sexually abused Beth. And she was like a baby. So this is horrific.

And I don't know if yeah, like I'm watching Ronie, I don't know if you've gotten to this part yet.

But this is how Brynn was raised.

Like she said she would be in a dirty diaper all day, no one fed her, she'd be left alone for days, and that.

She was saved by her grandmother.

But I mean, I knew that being like this young, that being touch like all these things matter, like having a baby with love really affects you, but it is also shocking that you can have this much damage done before you're even one, that your body remembers neglect in your brain.

It just seems like, oh, I can figure this out.

I have years of reprogramming, and it's like no, yeah, I'm so curious to learn more about this. And well, not being held or being treated well as a baby can just fuck you forever.

Yeah, scary, scary.

So they said so basically like the father is telling like, yeah, I guess little Jonathan was in a diaper all day, like you're in all over his crib bottles with curdled milk in.

The crib, like it was not a good situation. So they were.

They were taken away from him obviously. But Beth has a recurring nightmare. She says about a man falling on her and hurting him, hurting her with a.

Part of himself.

So it's all very it's all there, and in the document in the documentary, they just ask this little six and a half year old about her birth father and she goes, yeah, he touched my vagina. Like she just is outwardly saying like using anatomically correct terms, like this is what happened. She said he wouldn't feed me, he wasn't nice to me. And THENY go, how old were you and she said I was one? And I'm like, normally,

But I didn't know. I don't know.

I'm sure we have listeners that like know more about child psychology and like when you start forming memories. But she has this nightmare where her dad hurts her. She draws a picture for the therapist of her dad hurting her. The documentary says that because of these early traumas, she never developed a conscience, and she never learned to love or trust anyone, and she also exhibited inappropriate sexual behavior, especially towards her brother. She admits in the interview to hitting, pinching,

The kids do not have control of anything.

You have to want to go to the bathroom, you want to sip of water, anything you want to do, you have to ask for permission. And this, I guess creates some kind of bond. And then the children because a lot of these kids, they say, believe that they themselves are evil. A lot of them think they're bad kids, they're from the devil whatever. And so the woman's like, we have to transform how they feel in their minds.

Where this happens.

So now we see some of her recovery in the documentary and now and how life was with her adoptive parents, Tim and Julie. At some point after this, she is adopted by a woman named Nancy Thomas. And I don't really understand what's going on. I cannot find out when, but there are photos of Nancy at Beth's wedding, so they are really related to each other. But I don't

I had no idea.

I think in my mind, I was like, oh, that's like legit, right, is an attachment therapy like a thing, but I guess it's kind of considered not fully legit at all. And remember Connell Walkins, this therapist who helped Beth turn around at this facility and helped her recover with this attachment therapy.

Oopsie oops.

In two thousand, she was arrested and convicted of reckless child abuse leading to the death of a child. She and another woman killed a ten year old child while attempting to put them through rebirthing, which is.

Ans for you.

On this there's an sview where there was a therapy and they sat on her chest with a bunch of pilla. Like there's also like can do type ones, but this the squeezing of someone for therapy and then they die.

It might be even the one with Margot Martindale. I don't remember.

I think it is. I think it is. It's like little fanning it.

It's a little fanning l so she there's video of it, which is so fucked up. Like obviously did not watch the video, but I read about the video and like in the video, this little girl, Candice Newmaker is like stop, I can't breathe. It's not working. It's not worthing stop. I want to die. I want to die, and they're like, go ahead and die. Then, like they are leaning. It's like multiple adults are on her, Like it was hundreds of pounds of weight, like on this little girl's body.

So she did suffocate and die.

And it turned out Watkins was not licensed as a therapist, so this whole story is very horrific. She got a sixteen year prison sentence but was paroled after eight years. And it's like, even though this kind of therapy seems to have greatly helped Beth, there have been several deaths of children related to attachment therapy and it's believed by many to be what Michael aaron A, PhD wrote in

Out in It's crazy.

I swore I read this when I lived in New York. When did this art? When did this article get written? Let me just look really quick. Sorry, No, I'm also wondering if it's like too early to even label Beth a success story, Like what if she's doing fucked up shit as a nurse, or what if she does snap one day and kill her husband.

I don't know, Like, yes, there.

Is there a way to prove this since the therapy is not even proven. Well, just for the best, yeah, I think she stopped trying to harm people physically and kill animals and stuff. So yeah, but why did she not stay with her original family? Did she continue to hurt her brother like she needed to be with this Nancy woman.

Like there is just.

A lot of questions that I still have of, yeah, how this works, because it's you can't change being a psycho or sociopath, right, Like that's what Beadie Wong said.

There's no cure for this.

Right, So I think in this documentar, I'm going to get into this right now, because I think a lot of times people are very reticent, like bed Wong's character, to label kids psychopaths. They're like, oh, they have a reactive attachment disorder. Sometimes it can be forms of autism, sometimes it can be other kind of behavioral disorders. And so they're very reticent to ever put that label on kids.

And that's why he does it.

And in the next episode two, there's a lot of like, I don't know if I would say, you know whatever when they were because they don't want to label children this way. So anyway, here's a little bit of information about child psychopaths. This article that came out in the Atlantic in twenty seventeen.

I really thought it was earlier.

Maybe it was republished, but it's called When Your Child Is a Psychopath. It's going to be in the show notes. But it's so fucking interesting. It follows like a bunch of cases of kids who are psychopaths or have been essentially deemed that how do we decide who is a psychopath? So there is a psychopathy checklist that is called the PCLR because it's been revised, so it's the Psychothapy Checklist. Dash are in the r is for the revision. They

Well, what's wild that you cover this episode or because while you're talking about Beth Thomas, that reminded me of Aria Grainer's character in Damaged and the Damaged episodes based on the you know, yeah, what is it?

Not the Hollywood Killer, the Hotti.

The Barbie and Ken killers, but Ken and Barbie killers is what they were called.

Oh my gosh, but wonder people were.

Really mad that she got out of prison and how much was she involved?

So this is interesting to see that she's, you know, to be a.

Psychopath and then like Ted Bundy thirty nine out of forty, that makes sense. Jeffrey Dahmer twenty three out of forty. He doesn't even test into psychopath. John Wayne Gacy twenty seven out of forty. Brian David Mitchell, who was the guy who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart, thirty four out of forty. Gary Widray, the Green River killer who was married to a woman the entire time, who was like, he was a lovely husband and did nothing wrong to me ever,

He's killed hundreds of.

People, Eileen Warnos thirty two out of forty. So she's with But Eileen Warnos is an example, so much trauma has happened to her.

You know.

So.

The Atlantic had this article, like I said, and in it, the author writes that quote researchers shy away from calling children's psychopaths. The term carries too much stigma and too much determinism. They prefer to describe these children's as having quote callous and unemotional traits end quote shorthand for a cluster of characteristics and behaviors, including a lack of empathy, remorse or guilt, shallow emotions, aggression and even cruelty, and

Well that makes sense.

Yeah, So these others are just you know, cheating husbands and wives getting shot at.

Yeah, or crimes of passion. Yeah, people have napping me read Yeah, totally.

The article talks about how there's nature and nurture to psychopathy. Some people become this way because of traumas and other things that we've discussed for others. It's quote highly hereditary, hardwired in the brain end quote, and no amount of parental love is going to change it or fix it. So honestly, I just want to like read this whole article out loud on the podcast. It's so interesting, but it's one of those very long ones that takes like a few subway rides to read, so I'll let you

That's what's happening. Well, it's just really scary.

And you know a lot of times, you know, as a child free person, I peruse the Instagram accounts and get in the comments and oftentimes the whole thing with parents, and I do bits about it. But it's like, if you don't have kids, you'll never understand unconditional love. Or it's like who's gonna take care of you when you're old? Or what about this? And it's the most beautiful thing, and it's like or your kid could be a born psychopath?

Yeah, you know what I mean.

I just think that sometimes people are living in a dreamland when you decide to have children, where it's like I'm gonna have a kid and they're gonna be perfect, and then they're gonna take care of me when I'm older and we're gonna and it's like no, yeah, or your kid can like stab you?

How about that? And are you ready for that?

I just I find it when parents are trying to convince other people to have kids in these accounts and they come with such anger and it's like you never know, you never know, and you have I ready for every kind of way your child can be born.

I'm interested, Yes, that's true, and I'm.

Interested in how many of the children that are considered psychopaths or tending towards psychopathy, how many have a legitimate trauma, and how many are just born that way, because like in this article they talk about kids that just this is just how they are.

But they also I've.

Read this book called The Psychopath Test by Michael Ronson as well.

I am very into this, as you can tell.

But they like there's people there are grown adults that know that they're psychopaths and they have they since they had such a loving family that worked with them from a young age. They just figure out ways to like work to not channel their psychopathy into violence. Like there's way, Like I remember reading this story about this guy who was just like he heard a story where everybody was supposed to feel sad, and he was like, yeah, I just didn't feel sad. Like, you know, there's he doesn't

I have a wife, I have a job.

I'm like, I test onto this with the checklist, I test as a psychopath.

Yes, but does he love his wife? I don't know, can you feel love?

Or the two psychopaths just fucking who knows? Hopefully she's a psycho too. It just seems so scary.

Yeah, and there will be obviously less psychopaths, the less that there are horrible people that are just traumatizing children at young ages as well, But that's for.

Another talks of like narcissists that are in therapy, and they'll be like, as a narcissist, I do this and that, and this is how we do this and manipulate you to do this and just like aware of it. Yeah, but you need so much you need to have a fucking penthouse. That's what sucks about the parents in the episode. They had all the resources and chows not to do it for like superficial reasons. And if maybe they did intervene sooner, who knows.

Hmm, I don't know. Well that's that.

And isn't that psychopath book the tests isn't it uh like one in twenty people or is a psychopath or one in twenty five people.

Is a sociopath or something.

Oh maybe he talks about the difference between sociopaths and psychopath Oh.

Yeah, sociopath next door. That's what I think. I think their claim is like one in twenty or one in twenty five people are a socio. Wow, which seems scary.

I google it like probably once every six months, the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath. It's like, I'll get it and then I'll just completely like not remember it.

Oh to me, it's so seo and psycho or the same, except psychos act on it like a socio feels nothing, and so does a psychopath. But then a psychopath then murders and tortures.

Hmm, but not necessarily because I read about this guy who's like, I'm a psychopath and I'm living a normal life.

I don't know. Let's move on.

To our post mortem since we will not be having a guest in solidarity for sag Aftra and the WGA.

Yep, hey, a post mortem with no guest. We are genre bending here. That's messed up an SVU podcast.

Basically, what did we learn from this episode.

About that parents are bad? Not everyone should be allowed to procreate. I'm with China.

Limit.

You gotta limit, you gotta limit. I'm into four sterilizations. That's what I get one.

You just get one shot.

Honestly, No, if you're like these parents, you should not be allowed to have kids and pip a coocks come on just because they're rich. It's a nice house, like the Ruby's in danger. No one cared about Ruby. Nobody, I know.

You know what I learned.

Sexism is alive and real in your own fucking home. That's what I learned. This girl is being thrown down the stairs. She's being abused, she is injured, she has bruises, her head hurts, there's matches, and it's like, well, we don't want him to be labeled like it is.

It is Bonker's watch this episode.

How little the parents care about their daughter and how this son will cut this mom's cut her and she's like it's my fault.

Please, he's fine, and it's like he just stabbed you.

It's so funny because my sister and I talk about this all the time because she's a teacher and like parents now will always be like, well my kid didn't do anything, and like my parents, whenever the school called them immediately, we're on the side of the teachers. Like even if I was like, mom, though, that's not how it happened, she'd be like, don't care.

The school called the teacher said this. I believe the teachers.

Like that's how my parents always were, so like, I feel like it's such a big shift to this, like the to the more modern day of like, yeah, I know he's okay, I know he started a fire, but that he did not mean to do that, and he like, you know, just like excusing your kid's behavior and like always thinking that it's an out it's like an external excuse and not like that your kid's just like doing something bad.

Well, and I know that you're lying because I know that you know you're kid is an asshole. Like this idea of like not my kid, it's like, you know it's your kid. Isn't that why you need a drink wine at night? Like, well, fine line to me.

I feel like a little bit subtly they they were they were a little bit.

Too subtle with the dad. I feel like the dad.

Was the reason the mom was like doing so much hiding, because you could tell the mom was scared. She was like sometimes I do hate him, and then he slashed her with a fucking knife. Like and then when we go, you know, spoiler alert, we are covering the second half, and like the he gets his new wife fully on board, even though she's not.

Like I think, we get a lot.

We get a lot of the feeling that the dad is probably like, no, I won't label him, and this and that, and that the dad's more in the driver's seat of it, and the mom is just like what But maybe I'm just being an apology a Hope Davis apologist.

No. Well, it's interesting because he kept saying that he has rage issues. Okay, so this was just a clip from a podcast on like YouTube shorts, so please do not you know this is in Bible.

But where did that come from? Bible?

The Kardashians. Oh my god, I kind of like it. It might be my new thing. So it was the first time I said it, and it made me feel rich. So I saw a clip where a professor was teaching about psychopaths and he was doing like brain wave testing with like they were going to test brain activity, but they needed a control group, so everyone in the class and then the professor did brain scans to have a control group, and then one brain was like, oh, this is a psychopath.

Fuck. And then the professor.

Checked who it was and it was him and he was a psychopath, and he was like, oh that makes sense. And he started kind of going through it and it is wild because he's never acted on it and he's not a killer and he didn't murder, and you have to be a psychopath, like you have to do you

There are people like that in this will lead us right into our what would sister peg do? But there are people like that in the article that I talked about in the episode, like the guys that are like, oh, yeah, I ended up taking this test and it turns out I'm a psychopath.

But I've never done anything violent.

And but I do recognize some of the thoughts I have are like someone will tell me a story and I'll be like I don't care. I don't have no empathy for that, Like the like there's there's nothing is making me feel anything about this story. And he figured out that he's on the psychopath scale. But not this article is really interesting. Let me let me get into it. So what would sester peg do?

This way more good Taylor Swift news. Not only did she give bonuses to all her crew, you know, totaling fifty five million dollars, it's come out that she's been giving such giant donations at food pantries at every city she goes to that like in San Francisco, half a million people can eat a month for a year, Like half a million people per month for a year will

That's awesome, that's awesome.

Yeah, that's always been my dream to be able to like hook up with shelters and stuff when I tour, but.

Never never done it. Cool.

I hope this inspires a lot of people. And then of course I read Beyonce has been doing this this whole time. Just no, it's you know, white supremacy always. Yeah, Beyonce is just not in the convo.

It's it's wild. I just saw something on.

Insta where it was just like everyone's just like Barbee Taylor feminism, and it's like, okay, is Beyonce not changing economies and making billions too? I just I don't get why how people don't see it, but whatever.

And it is Virgo season, which means you've recently had a birthday. Beyonce's recently had a birthday. I'm having my birthday coming up. We're we're in our virgo.

Season, baby, So Ludacris is a virgo.

Okay, important, Michelle Visage, we have the same birthday.

Well, Luda's SVU. That's why. Oh Yeahdvsage should be SVU. Let's get her on.

But I could see, you know, if we're saying any anyone, I'll say Richard Gear.

You know, we've definitely talked to other guests and been like, so you're a virgo.

Okay, let's get into what would sister Peg do.

This is our weekly segment where we point you guys to an article, a blog post, a charitable organization, something, a doc, something to give you more info about what we talked about. And I'm obviously pointing you today to the article that I can't stop talking about. I'm obsessed with it. It's from twenty seventeen. It's from the Atlantic and it's called When Your Child Is a Psychopath by Barbara Bradley Haggerty. I read this when it first came out.

Well.

It's an article that goes in depth on several cases of child psychopaths, and it explores the Mendota Juveniles Treatment Center in Madison, Wisconsin that is attempting to treat violent youths. And you can find the link to that in our show notes because I reference parts of it in the article. But you can also always find out what would Sister peg dos in our WWSPD highlights on our Instagram where we save them forever.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate you saying that. And you did mention Madison. And is it trashy if we say we are coming back to Madison And next week's episode is post graduate Psychopath? Are you shocked or not? It is a two parter bang bang back and forth. Let's do this season twenty two, episode fourteen. Let's see how the Born Psychopath is doing post graduation.

See you next week.

Bye, guys, That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.

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And to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cotner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly gen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgareff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

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