Of the law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.
These are our stories, done.
Done, Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up and Us for You podcast.
I'm your host Kara and I'm Lisa, your other hosts, and we are thrilled to be here talking about SVU True Crime and no guests because the motion picture people are fucking idiots. I was gonna say Watson, then I held back.
But I'll say twa. I'll say, you.
Really are getting so British.
I do have Well I told you this a little bit ago, and well in Atlanta we figure it out. But Pimento Cheese is about to have a moment. So if everybody it's out there, it's everywhere, and you should all get in on the Pimento Cheese train.
We are going on tour and my mom is coming to help with the kids, and so I was having Jared pick out the blue Apron meals that he's going to make for him and my mom. One of them is a Pimento cheeseburger, and I was like, Lieze, is right. Pimento cheese is about to blow up. Yeah, it's real. I see it everywhere.
And then this Hilltop, which is a coffee breakfast chain in La I guess that a chain. There's like a few of them owned by Issa Ray. But they have a pimento grilled cheese and it is not bad.
Yeah, I want to know. Okay, what is in it?
Yeah?
What is pimento cheese?
Literally looking it up, I'm like, pimento cheese? Wikipedia?
Is there one?
Okay, Pimento cheese is made of cheese, mayo, and penentoes. But what the fucker pimentoes?
I bet it's a pepper. But I did not know that there was a mao in it, don't wonder. We fucking love it?
Of course I love it. She's mixed with mayo.
Oh yeah, pimentos are like little red peppers. Like this thing is like pickled cherry peppers. Also, oh my god.
But my friend from England it is funny, like she's like, what are your normal pizza toppings? I'm like, I don't know, cheese, but I'll take like a sausage pepper onion if it's the special kind of place, or like a weirdly pineapple onion and she's like, oh, usually do a sweet cone chicken and spin it. And I'm like, get the fuck out of here. We're not getting sweet corn chicken mushrooms. You fucking creep.
That pizza sounds nuts.
We would love a corn pizza, though, I think we would as I mean, I do love corn.
Yes, we right when we went to Vegas seeking out corn pasta and we found it.
Yeah, but I was the only one who ordered it. I thought everyone was gonna order it. What did I get?
Oh? I got vodka sauce because I love vodka sauce. But you gave me one of your or so I got my fix. I got my little light.
Yeah, and I had some of your vodka sauce, which is good. But I keep thinking about that ricotta. Fucking ficasha, that whipped honey ricotta. I I gotta go back. Yeah, you know what good? There's an rpment we should go before show at Park West?
Is that the one we went to? Yeah? Oh, or we.
Could try something new. You know, we love to explore. We love to explore, but I want more. Yeah, vodka sauce is just so fucking good. I know you know what, I just found Barclays. If you're like in the VIP during the sports, like during halftime, they have a little catering area and it's Carbone.
No our Bone caters Barclays. Wow. Wow yeah. Yeah. I've only been to Barclays once and I saw jay Z there.
That's cool? Is that when he took the train? Is that where the concerts he took the train?
Maybe maybe it was so easy.
It's so easy to go see stuff at Barclays because you just everybody just gets out and there's space for everyone. Like my least favorite thing about concerts is like in LA there's so many beautiful concert venues, but it's like we're all funneling out to the same parking lots in the same area. But it's like Barclayser's like ninety entrances and you all just scatter into the New York streets after you know, it's so good.
Yeah, and then everyone is singing on the train platform or you're walking blocks from the concert together, like yeah.
There's places to grab a drink like right there, you know what I mean if you want to like keep the party going. Not so the case with you know, these la venues. But I also think they're beautiful. You also go to an LA venue and you like look at a mountain in the moonlight while you're watching a concert.
So I know we are in.
The time machine because in the future, you guys are gonna have so much to hear from us.
I'm seeing Incubus this week. Oh my god, for good at the Hollywood Bowl, right, yeah, yeah, baby base, Hell yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited.
I want to be up there for the Hollywood Bowl because not to brag, last and we went my only time, we sat so close.
Yeah and for Backstreet. Yeah.
But now I'm sitting up but I'll be able to see the view or like the fireworks if they happen, you know, like, yeah, it's a different experience, and I'll be.
I've sat nose bleeds at Hollywood Bowl and I love it, like I love it every time.
And I can bring a cooler of food.
That's like part of the gig, right, like you bring stuff because that depends.
Oh okay, it depends.
See the way the Hollywood Bowl works is that certain of the events are Hollywood Bowl events, and then some of them are like the Hollywood Bwls, essentially being rented out, and when it's those you're not allowed, and when it is you just have to like check the website and see what the event things are. Because I have been there where I've brought picnic snacks and bought my own wine and everything. But there's other times where you're not allowed.
Oh I bet that's just for the symphony, and then for the other concerts.
It's like symphony like sound of music, sing along that kind of stuff.
Yeah, oh my god.
Our friend's daughters are fully obsessed with the sound of music right now.
Have you ever been a sound of music girl?
No, I was like obsessed when I was because we did it at my school.
I'm a little sad.
I you know, I was excited when the girls were in the Spice Girls. But now it's the sound of music.
Now.
They're weird for me.
They're literally like Hi on a Hill was a lonely goatherd. Like they're like singing all of the little songs from it. They know all the words.
It's crazy. I'm not.
Rosie's not into live musicals yet, but I can't wait until she is. I wanted to watch that New Matilda. I heard that slaps.
Yeah, I wonder if that's that's the entry way, just full orphan it is.
It's all full orphan.
Yeah, full orphan for the first musical, and then all the other musicals should be like where are the orphans?
I don't get it. Well, no, I.
Mean unless we really want to talk about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelcey, but we'll see.
If that's death, how much do you think talking about them?
But yeah, how much do you think the NFL is paying Taylor's lift?
That's what I was just talking about with Oh.
I went on Justin's podcast and we were talking about this and.
Well plug Justin Martindale. Justin Martindale. Justin Martindale.
Yeah, he has a podcast called Just Saying and I was telling him your theory too. I was like, maybe she's trying Lisa's theory or what she's heard is that like she's trying to like maybe outshine Beyonce a little bit, just like during the end of her tour, and so we'll say what did he say? He was like, that makes sense. I mean, we were conspiracy theory about everything.
I was like, my conspiracy theory about the housewives is that they're all trying to do scan of all now, Like we were just talking bounce and forth back.
He was like, possible.
You know everyone's but he thinks it's a total PR scam too, like everybody does. But people on the internet were like, I was seeing on X yesterday kill me. I can't believe I'm even referring to it like that, But are like, why would she need to do that? And I'm like, there's always more. Taylor doesn't have every single person in the world. I mean like, I feel like, right, if you're like a big there's always more people you could get to like you and buy your shit and be on your side.
Okay, So this is everything that I've gathered.
It's the redo of nineteen eighty nine Taylor's version, and that era of her was all like hanging out with their friends, bad blood supermodels. Like so it's the it's that era again, and she wants to stay in the press. She does it, and I think she wants to stay in the press because Beyonce's tour is gonna make more money and she doesn't like that. And it was ending in Kansas City, and instead of talking about Beyonce's incredible tour and how it was ending and all the magic
that she's created. We're talking about Taylor Swift at a Kansas City game in New York. So I think it's just keeping her talked about and the right, you know, So in that way, it's like good pr I think the NFL is paying her because they straight up are doing Taylor's version on their Twitter bios. They the commercials for the Jets game was Welcome to New York, Like, yeah, they are try and Swifties.
Swifties change economies.
Okay, so now we have Swifties buying tickets, they love buying merch.
They're coming to the games.
And now all these like dads are hanging out with their daughters finally on a Sunday.
Good for you?
Is this what Elliott Stabler needs to hang out with his kids?
And and then the other theory, which is, you know, a next step up is is this Beard territory?
Who is gay? And who is protecting who?
And so that is another situation where some people believe that Taylor, you know, none of these relationships.
Are real, maybe all of them.
I think it's like professional wrestling to me, because like you can know that it's staged and have a good time, you know, you know, it's still skillful. You still want to look at them. They're in shape, they're doing tricks. You're in But at the end of the day, you
know they planned backstage what's about to happen. And so there's those kinds of fans, and then there's marks, and the marks think it's all real and not plan and those are usually children or Disney adults, and those are the people that are like, oh, you could tell they've been dating because she's you know, she's so close to his mother and it's like, you're an idiot, But we're
all having fun, you know. But do I hope that they're two hot people are fucking and they're having a good time and she's with like a real man who's into her and the romance is incredible at the end of the day.
Yeah, and maybe this is like the ultimate rom com where it starts as a PR stunt and.
Yeah, all in love.
Like how many people have been set up by their agents or whatever that are like this could be cool and then maybe and then they do get married and have kids and stuff.
You know, who knows, this is so funny. We are recording this so early. By the time this comes out, like they're gonna be done. This is so embarrassing. We're gonna get messages like it's over with it.
Shut up.
But sorry, this is like this episode is actually like a little bit like double time Machine because we're going on the road and hopefully you guys are gonna come see us and we'll get into that.
In a second.
But you know, like so this is like her the Arrows movie will have come out like over a week ago. We are old ladies talking about did you hear about this pretty little singer and the football man? Yeah, that's us, that's us. But listen, if you're gonna show us hot, and if you're gonna show up for Taylor at a football game, please show up for us.
And here's where we're going to be.
Wait, hold on, I just don't I just like I don't believe that he would be a good enough actor, like the way he's really playing it up.
But I don't know if you.
Saw, but Rosebud posted a thing on her stories and she was saying, how like when he was on SNL, he had trouble reading, like the table reads kept taking
forever because you just can't really read that well. But then she walked by his dressing room and he was like with all his football friends and they were helping him read lines, like they were practicing reading together and cut it's so cute, and so she that's when she realized she was pregnant because she was crying over how cute it was, and she's like, I must be pregnant.
That's when she realized, oh my god, that's so funny.
Because the other thing, too, is like it's one thing to read, it's another thing to like read funny dialogue in front of the cast of SNL, who are professional comedians and you're a football player. That's like, not what you do? You know, Like, I'm sure the guy is literate. It's just that's nerve wrecking. Anyway, after you leave Dave and Busters where you're watching those two on at a football game, please come see us on tour. This episode comes out the twenty fourth wide.
Way I do. I am sorry, obviously we gotta plug our tour.
But I also just love that, like men are so like so sexist in their bones that they're like, she better get a prina, you know, ah, she's just like they or even the like the trend of like she put him on the map and their piss. It's like she is seventy five times more famous than him, and I don't understand why men can't like understand that.
Yeah, like I really am dying to wait, hold on, I have to look this up.
How much is Taylor's worth?
She's over she's right now worth over seven hundred million. By the end of the tour, she will be worth over a billion dollars, I believe.
And he's a football player that probably makes like a twenty million dollar contract.
No, he's probably worth between thirty and fifty million. Like he's not a poor guy, but like, no, I'm just saying comparatively. Yeah, he has a rough net worth of thirty million. That is homes a million dollars. It's like your home's a million dollars.
That's like a nothing compared to fucking tailor. I'm just saying, but that is funny about the sexism because it's so true.
Yeah, but the guys are back. Uh uh.
He put her on the map to guys who might not know her, and it's like, but you.
Do know her, you know her?
Yeah whatever, I'm a news swifty. I'm always late to the party. No, I did see that in nineteen eight nine tour. But like i've the pr is working. I'll just say this, I am I'm an equal Mark and not Mark.
I would say, I don't know.
Yeah, I love it, but yes we have shows to promote and we are not millionaires and.
You know, not even close. Please come see us.
This episode comes out today, the twenty fourth of October.
That means tonight we are in Toronto. Baby. You guys from Toronto have been begging us to come in here. We're coming.
Please come see us Detroit, Michigan tomorrow the twenty fifth, and then Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the next day on the twenty sixth, and then guys, the Big Midwest tour. We start in Salt Lake on the fourth, but then we go Chicago on the fifth, Madison on the sixth, Minneapolis on the seventh, Milwaukee on the eighth, Saint Louis on the ninth. Then it's Sacramento, New York, and Philly in December. You can check out all those dates that that's messed up live
dot com. And we have added a late show in New York. Please get tickets for that. It would be so sad to have the first show be sold out. In the second show, just be like book Club size, you know what I mean? Uh So that's that on that?
What else?
Should we just get the party started with this episode? We've got another hot episode from Sholy seasons.
About other very very timely things. So everyone knows when this was?
Is that?
What should we should do exactly? But yeah, Halloween's coming up and that's a holiday I love.
But oh yeah, send us Semessa dm us if you're going to be an sv related Halloween costume, we'll share your costumes. I want to see some iced teas. I want to see some belsers. I want to see some I don't know. I guess there's like some really funny like niche ones you could do. Listen, like dressing as Cynthia Nixon from Alternate with the Little pigtails.
Wait, we should do SVU costumes. I know we should.
Fuck Okay, we gotta star, we gotta start. I'll be I'll be the guy from Charisma.
I'll just I'll strap a bunch of.
Dead children cabbage badge dolls.
Yeah, I mean we have the same hair, like I truly, I just have to put my arms out like Jesus and I'll be charismas.
God. He was wild. He loved meditating.
We're gonna some more inappropriate ideas for costumes, but in the.
Mean time, it's fun.
If you're picking up a friend from the airport from a different country and you're bringing American snacks, what would you bring?
Ooh?
I mean I think of an American snack as like Cheetos, like probably like some candy, except people from other countries hate our chocolate, like they don't like hershees.
They think it tastes sour. Oh. Interesting. Yeah.
I gave her a gush and she's like, you know what what that means in England and I'm like, yes, squirting, we're not idiots.
But then she bit it. She's like, ooh, something's inside of it.
I'm like, yeah, the gush, you lose her, that's the gush.
God, this is so wild. This has been a truly unhinged episode.
While we went to the beach okay, I don't know if this is okay, there was a man obviously having a mental episode or a really like intense LSD trip like whatever it was. He had a really amazing setup. The reason I wanted to sit next to him was because he was playing like Luda Nelly, like early two thousands. He played juvenile, So like, while we were picking a spot at the beach, I go, oh, let's just be
by the guy with the speaker because he's playing music. Yeah, he was drinking, he was he was having he was reliving trauma loudly, and he was yelling like dead, why don't you listen to mom? Like he was fully Oh no, yeah it was. He's like, I'm the man of the house now, like it was. But we didn't move, and then a man with a really nice dog came to like help him for a little bit. But for about an hour he was reliving his youthful trauma out loud, and we were there for him.
And that's what you took your friend directly from the airport to experience.
And there were pigeons.
I'm like, we can't just ever have a truly nice time, you know, like there needs to be a little roughness to our because one time when she met me in New York, a guy was passing out and we had to hold him on the train and walk him off, and like there's always we're always just kind of.
Invault.
She's basically coming from England to the us on a humanitarian mission, like every time she comes.
She's here to help. I love that he's just like I should be able to eat what I want.
Like he was just you know, as someone that researches, you know, so that a part of me is like, hopefully he's just like having a mushroom trip and getting through stuff. Best case sitdy, worst case yeah, best use. Yeah, his setup was really nice though. Okay, oh my god, we gotta go. I'm sea sorry. Did you quote the tour yet or do it? Have I interrupted you every single time?
Yes, against your best efforts, I have promoted the tour. So let's get started with the episode. We got a good one from an early season. We're jumping in here we go.
We will be doing the episode appearances, season four, episode nineteen. And even though this is season four, it truly is like looks like season one. Yeah, it's really old timey feel vibe.
Case.
I don't know, there's something really retro about it. And it is season four, so maybe I don't know. It just seems different. Yes, but also some classic tropes, some classic classic favorite I would say, let's just get into this. The bus doors open and a blonde Bob teacher is addressing her class ready to board the bus, and she's like, you know, make sure everyone's with their partners. But there's a famous Simpsons episode where what if the two partners are missing?
You know what I mean?
It's like, I have my buddy, but what if you and your buddy are gone?
Then fucked?
So this whole system of elementary school field trip logic is not good. And she has a fur lined hood, which uh of the era h and she has a scowl. She's not happy about this, but what chaperone on a field trip is. And then one kid tells on another kid because this and that, and it's like, kid, get a life. No one likes a narc and they're headed to the Natural History Museum. But before that, the another
boy with glasses, he has an announcement. He's like, oh, someone left their suitcase on the bus, and the and then the boys like fits heavy. So the teacher acts fast. Everyone rushes off the bus. Sexy bomb squad man and a helmet. They're ready to work. There's a guy with scuba suits. They're extraying the suitcase, you know, the helmet and the nerd are watching, and the nerd is like fuck, it's not a bomb, it's bones. And also I noticed that this is just like a normal city bus. Yeah,
I don't understand. How are you taking a whole class to the museum on a city I was.
Thinking about that too, because I've ridden I've ridden the New York City bus a long time. I've never seen a class of children get on it. But I'm assuming that, like you, if you teach on the Upper east Side and you want to just take kids across the park to the Museum of Natural History, when you just hop on the Crosstown, I guess, well, I don't know.
Not in the suburbs you would get a school bus. But I've seen field trips on the train all the time. I've seen camps, I've seen the yurops. Yeah, someway. So if it's for the train, I see it for a bus. I just really grew up where you take a school bus like this is so foreign. Yeah, so that was really shocking that it was a city bus. But it makes sense that there was, you know, a loose suitcase and stuff like that.
So you know, we're on the case. The girl is eight or nine? No ID? Yeah, what child has an ID?
What do they think that she was going to have her her club Penguin card.
What id They're going to use the library card? Like so wild?
So I have a passport card for Rosie and I keep it in my wallet and it does look like a baby with a driver's license.
And she was a real baby during that ride, isn't it like so cute?
She's five months old, that's so cute.
So the girl was jammed inside a suitcase and left on a bus, not good and the driver doesn't remember anyone, and it's like, yeah, I'm a I'm a city bus driver. I'm not gonna remember every Tom Joey.
I'm not a bartender.
I'm not a bartender on lonrd SVU where I can tell you who got on, what time, what they drank.
Yeah, I got a No one wants to merge. I'm turning right. Okay.
Melinda's on the case and she doesn't know the cause of death yet, but there are ligature marks on the arms and wrists and based on something or other, and there's just she was bound somewhere else and then put in the suitcase. And then Benson is in a short hair swoopy bang era and she leans down to the body, and right away she notices a fresh, nice like French manicure and petticure, and she goes, that's a salon job.
And then there's dark roots and blonde hair.
So this girl is made up and Maloney thinks she's too young for all this flare, but Benson's like it's probably kitty beauty pageants and they're like, uh oh, not a Jean Bennet. And yeah, it was really sad and the whole case and everything, but we as a nation really never discussed Jean Benet is a wild name, right for a little girl in Colorado?
Yes? Was that ever brought up?
Like, hey, guys, I know she's murdered, but can you also explain why you get her that name.
I'm literally going to try to google it really quickly. I feel like it's never oh, oh, okay, it was.
She was named after her father, combining his first and middle names. His name was John Bennett, and so Jean Benet with the French flair. I hate that even more than just thinking it was, like if it was just a fake French name, I would like that more than naming it after having to name your daughter after her dad's first and last name, like name her Joanna or something. You know, there's names that are can be feminized off
of John has to be full name. The men get the boys, right, The men get all the boys to be their little juniors. And then it's so weird. Also, they have a son who's older. Why did they name him John Bennett?
Well, maybe the dad's as big of a creep as the dad in this Stay tuned, Yes, Benson, you know, she goes, wow, we have a dead beauty queen. Okay, that's nice, and then done, done credits. We it's still just a kid, and you solve the crime. We returned to the morgue with a straight hair, ponytail Melinda, and she goes, yes, there are fluids and the way she died not good. Basically in her mouth was vomit and latex. They also found sawgrass inside of her sweater, which only
grows in the Florida Everglades. And there's more. They've realized that she's had a fucking nose job. And then Melinda goes and a damn good one.
I like that.
We gotta walk and talk brainstorm with Craigan and Munch, but sadly nothing is really hitting or working no matches, evidence patterns, like, what are we gonna do? Craigan's suggesting if there are any local pageants coming up or recently happened, and look into those and with some luck, you know, we'll we'll get to investigate the child beauty pageant scene. But before they do anything, they need to talk about
nine year olds getting those jobs. Craigan tells Benson and Elliott to go to the nip and to brigade and create. And I think that's just mom and dad, right, because there is the doctors I don't know up. Brigade is so funny to me. And then so that's what Benson and Stable are doing. And then Craigan and you're gonna go catch the kiddie pageant scene. A woman who you imagine in your head as a beauty pageant leader coach
person is up. Looks exactly what you're imagining in your head, but also add a Mormon's style half up, half down hair do with a lot of volume and thin eyebrows very very two thousands, I mean fair, you know, like big and into sperm. Well we've all had a sperm eyebrow. And she's taken aback by their disdain for the pageants.
She's like, I'm really proud.
To help ladies' characters builds, you know, and the pageants called Little Angels. They flash her a Moorg photo and her reaction is legit, like fuck, and it might be the first dead body she's ever seen. And I never like how loose they are show dead body pictures to people.
It really bothers me.
But she doesn't recognize the girl, but it does really sadden her, and she says, that's nobody she knows, but they like, she'll go through the files of people who did not get into the pageant. Bells Aer inquires about the security for the pageant, and she goes, we are really strict about badges. How much are badges twenty five dollars? So by strict they mean twenty five dollars. Do you
have twenty five dollars? Reagan takes a call and it's Olivia and she informs him that a girl named Sherry Lathan has just been reported missing in Valley's Stream and so Olivia and Elliott are gonna head there now, and Bellzer finds her file. In picture, she has puffy hair, blonde hair, green dress, huge smile, and it does seem like pageants make her happy, Like she does look really into it.
She has an l fanning vibe as well.
So then like it moves from that one photo of her into a bunch of framed photos. We're at a grieving parents home right now. The dad is a creep. They've been competing for four years. Her friend did it
and so she really wanted to do it. And then the last patge it was three months before, right before her surgery, and the sad mom is comotose and like not in the moment, but gets out of the zone to say plastic surgery, and you can feel she is not happy about it one bit, and he sternly says that's what she wanted, and she of course lets him know, that's clearly what you wanted. No six year old asks for a no shop and they ask why did it
take you so long to report your daughter missing? And this couple is so strange outside of the dad being so into beauty pageants, the mom is so mad. I mean, they did just lose a daughter. I take it back. They can act how they want. So Anyways, she was supposed to be at Amy Prescott's house for a sleepover and then goes straight to school and that's where they thought she was. That all seems kosher. I don't see
anything suspicious here. So the last time Shari was seen was the dad took her to get new headshots and then dropped her off at Amy's house. The mom is so sad. Dad is a weirdo. I am reiterating. He is very strange. And they ask if they've been to Florida recently, and the dad cries finally and he remembers Christmas at Disney World. They ask him for a DNA sample, and he is actually calmer than a lot of dads that are asked for DNA in connection to their daughter's crimes.
He is mad and defensive, but in a really calm tone, and he's teary, and he goes, I know what you're thinking, and you're wrong. I worshiped her, and to be fair, that is worse than being upset about the DNA. I think worshiping your little girl is creepy. The nose job is bad.
I can't believe there's a doctor that would do a nose job on a nine year old or an eight year old unless you really had like a deviated symptom that was making it hard for you to breathe, like you had some kind of like real problem, like just a plastic nose job on a I don't know. We've got people that listen to us, that like work at plastic surgeon's offices that I feel can you please let us know if you would do a nose job on an eight year old, because I feel like that's weird.
Your nose is like not done developing. Actually your noses grow. Your nose grows forever, so it's never done developing.
But go on.
So the next scene, they go to the friend Amy Prescott's house. Benson's talking to the mom while Elliott glares at the daughter and the mom's plans. Amy had the flu, so Shari went to school on her own, and the mom offered her a ride to the bus stop, but she's like, oh, no, worries, I'll walk and it's only four blocks. And the mom's like, fuck, I should have insisted on driving her, but I didn't want to leave Amy, and it's and the daughter says, I'm sorry, and it's like,
it's not your fault. Your mom's an idiot, you know what I mean? Your daughter with the flu can't be alone for four blocks, like, I just I can't, I really don't understand. Elliot leans in and asks Amy if she's ever complained about someone bothering her, and she goes, yes. Kevin, tenth grade, he bothered us. He would tell Shari she looks hot and meant it, and he'd hang around the gymnastics.
He'd hang around our gymnastics practice and just stare at us, And then uh oh, Belzer and Fann are talking about this dude. He basically he writes fan fixture about little children on the world Wide Web, and he even names in the fanfic, like the character is Shari. This creep is fifteen, and he convinced the sixth grader wants to
pose in a bikini for an art project. So Kevin is in the barroom cement and Finn is playing rough and tumble with him, and the dad is like, fuck you, Kevin, you skipped school, and it's like, I don't know your child's also a pedophile. I don't know if skipping school the biggest problem you have today, and they go yeah, I'm like he might never be able to go to near your school again, okay, bet or worse, So he doesn't have an alibi, but he says he would never
touch her. They start reading the stories out loud and he says, that's creative expression. And then he calls the black Man and the Jew a Nazi. I don't know which one, but it is pretty fun. He says, I make stuff up. And they say give us DNA. He says no. The Dad's like, the hell you will, So we're team Daddy over here. And then then the kid goes, you fascist, I'm gonna sue, and the dad grabs him, throws him into the chair, rips the hair out of his head and goes, will this do. Melinda says no,
so no match. We're in the lab and it's no match on the hairs. Finn Is like, we should still watch him. He's gonna he's gonna commit a crime soon. Also, Melinda found just and the purpose ejaculate, which is a
female hormone. So it's given to high school girls to prevent pregnancy cool or it can be taken as like a testosterone blocker to treat cancer, or it's for people undergoing males a female gender reassignment surgery, or Belzer says to sex offenders to reduce sex drive and Melinda goes, yeah, but no, because I found traces of testosterone in the blood.
And Finn is like, oh my god.
This this person is trying to reverse the effects of chemical castration to rape the child. Finn calls him a freak and we need to find him because he's not going to stop. So, if you're getting chemically castrated and then reversing it with tea, like, you really want to be out there. So NYC doesn't allow chemical castration, but nine states do. George is the closest one to New York City and they're like, well, what about voluntary vibes?
And they're like.
Sure, but why would you choose to do it and then take testosterone? That doesn't make sense, And Beidie Wong's like, well, he's done his homework. So Huan gets down and is just like, this guy likes a perfect victim pageants sexualized children who are innocent yet provocative. Bondage means he has thought about it for a long time before he did it.
We need to find him.
So calls calls, calls state to state, but chemical castration hasn't been around long enough to have a centralized database. So finally Elliott points to Florida, and it's like, why wouldn't that be the first idea you found the sawgrass from the Everglades. Why would he look anywhere else but Florida. Yeah, you're calling Florida's the last call you make.
I'm I'm dead. I just can't even.
So they start finding names of people who've been c seed. That's chemical castration for me. So one guy is a Rob Canoti from Milwaukee and he started treatments in Jersey City recently, and so it's like, well, maybe he went to Florida and came back. He does have a rap sheet, so and he one time straight up kidnapped a girl from a beauty passian to try to assault her in his car. So I think this is a great suspect. But the girl, thank god, escaped. She was ten years old.
Very So we go to a Jersey City library. I don't think this man should be working there, and right away when he sees them, he's like, what, a girl's been attacked And they're like, well, why would you say that, and he goes, that's the only reason you'd come find.
Me, duh.
And they say they want to talk about kitty beauty pageants, and they question him about Shari and he goes, well, I don't remember her, but it's hard to keep track of so many different lovelies. This throws Elliott into a rage. He throws the book out of his hand, corners him into a shelf, and goes, where were you last night? He was watching Nickelodeon. This guy does not stop, and he says, don't worry though, like you found a jacular right, so it can't be me. The urges, you know, started
to come back, so I had him cut off. He pulls down his pants in the aisle of the library and goes look and Eliot's like, okay, we get it. Pull your pants up. So then Benson gets a call and one of the Florida names they got has a mother who lives two houses down from Shari, and the guy's name is Tommy Hedges. So Munch and Finn are going to go visit the mother of the house that's
next to Shari that her son's a criminal. And she is eighties like she is like short mom, structured hair, lots of heavy highlights, a sweater that like a teacher would wear with like a cute scene on it, and she takes them around the house very nonchalantly. She's like, listen, he hasn't come visit. He can't leave the state, but his room is here for him. They see a van,
they want to search it. It's peculiar. It's the van piques their interest, and she says it was her late husband's and she's keeping it for Tommy and she doesn't drive it at all. But it's like, lady, you're dumb. There's snow everywhere and the van is clean. We know what's happening. She says that Tommy feels bad about his past and he's changed and takes medication and has a job in Florida and is determined to change. Finn and Munch dig through the garbage because she's not giving them anything,
and Belzer is wearing earmuffs and a hat chic. The mom runs out like, hey, bitch, stop looking through my garbage, and Finn it's too late. He finds something from a Mexican laboratory, pharmacia vibes liqud to testosterone, and they're like, we know Tommy is coming home. She denies it and they're like, his name and last week's data are on the meds. You're done, She.
Says, ugh.
He got a job at an ad agency in NYC. Monday through Thursday. He works, then flies down to Miami to get his injection. He is cured, and so they go to the ad agency. They find to me as long hair, he's not as weird or pedo as the other creeps in this episode, and he's really striking and smooth, I would say, And he goes with them pretty quickly. Everyone in the office is a buzz and standing and watching, and they take his laptop and go into interrogation. He says, listen,
nobody gave me a job in Florida. I had to come home, and I don't like flying up and down, but I do it.
And he's against the sexual Registry list.
Aka lol, Like what forster?
Against it?
He goes, it's hell for those trying to make a new start, and it's like, okay, but you are a pedophile rapist, Like I don't know what you want from us, Like you have to be on a list.
He seems sincere though you know.
He knows he broke parole, but he's taking his shots and the parole office thinks that he's doing telemarketing from home, so they show him the viole of testosterone and they're like, oh, is this for a jet lag? He says, I want to live a normal life, Like what woman wants to be with a guy who can't perform? And they're like, do you count Sherry Latham as a woman And he goes, I don't know who that is. They show the pick and they say this is a nine year old that
you raped and killed. He goes, this is a mistake. They say, hey, it's great. If it's a mistake, we'll apologize to you and send you on your way.
But yeah, just show us some evidence.
So do you have flight info or what if we find trace evidence in your van or DNA and fluids found in the girl? Like, some of this will take time, but we're not worried because you'll just be in prison for your parole violation. So we're not in a hurry. You're not in a hurry. And he looks stunned, shocked, gooped, gagged. Elliott asks what happened and he's doing the caring little routine.
He's like, just tell us, honey, we care. He cries.
He starts to breathe deep and says he noticed her before the other girls and then he calls her a little princess and he starts crying more. And this is a really quick to you know, in terms of sview format. He offered her a ride. He just wanted to talk to her. She was really sweet and lovely. Benson asks where he did it. It is in the van. She was crying and saying she would tell, and he wanted to keep her quiet, so he had to stop her.
So he gagged her and then he left to get some air, and when he came back, she wasn't moving. He did not mean to hurt her, He just wanted to rape and gag her. So then he said he can control his feelings. But then he read the story what story on the internet? Pictures and words, Yes, that's a story, but it was stuck in his head.
And then knock knock. Kraigan says, the lab got something. You need to see this.
So we have friend of the pod, Joel de la Fuente, and he found forty kittie porn shots on this man's laptop and one of the pictures is like the story about he was talking about of Janet, and it's how to stalk and rape little girls photos and like words like the man said, and she's tied up in the same way in position as Shari, and he copied exactly what he saw. But also to me, I'm just like, well, who care, like motive, like that doesn't matter, Like it doesn't matter who inspired you.
It's like the Columbine shit. It's like, this is very few times.
I'm not fully gung ho with SVU, and this is one of them where I'm like, this is really a stretch.
So Cabot, of course, is like, this is a dumb case, like he looked at pictures, doesn't diminish his culpability, and Sailor goes, yes, but Tommy deserves to be punished obviously, but so is the person who made this, and she goes, juries, don't go for shit like this, bad Wong babbles, and Cabots like, nope, porn does not make people do things, he goes, but it does desensitize him to stuff, and repeated viewing could push people to look at more wild, degrading shit and then even act on it.
And so the murder.
So she goes, oh, so the murderer has no choice, like I'm not buying it, and bid Wong is like, listen, people are very succeptible, Like he was even more susceptible if he maybe never looked at the pictures after he had already done something like that, like maybe he would have never done it. This is crazy reasoning, okay, but basically he said, because he's done it before, he was more acceptible to the pictures and if he didn't see him, he might not have ever done it.
Elliott wants her to like Aaron Brockovich.
This like this business they're focused on queens and they're called Love Incorporated.
So they're like, fine, we'll go erin Brockovich.
So there's a big raid and there's a young young girl in pigtails making porn. But she is nineteen and she has a birth certificate and Benson's like, you always have your birth certificate on you and it's like, yeah, yes, she had needs an ID. Maybe she lost her idea at the bar last night, fucking judgy bitch.
And he's trying to connect.
The case, but like she's like, I don't understand what you want from me, and they're like, just get to the chase tell us who signs your checks, and she goes. Stanley Billings from Excel Entertainment and we see him and his suit is very ill fitting, and he does like he's like, I don't do anything illegal. He's really just a classic, ill fitting suit kind of man. And they're all of age, he says. And this guy is played by an actor named Brian Kerwin. He's the dad in
Twenty seven Dresses, also some their svus. He has ninety four credits, including three hundred and eight episodes of One.
Life to Live.
WHOA, Maybe that's how I recognize him. I used to watch One Life to Live as a child. No, but he was only on it from two to eleven. I was done by then. I recognize him, but I don't know what I know him from.
He's everywhere, he's everywhere. He works. He works for me. He's twenty seven Dresses, because that's a movie I like to watch. I used to support my airline that I was loyal to, but now with all the changes they've decided to make, I will not be mentioning them on.
This podcast ever again. Oh wow, but this guy seems casual.
He's like, I do everything legal, and they're like, well, this pick looks like a child. He goes, yeah, but they're not. It's virtual photography. And we make them look younger. It's ai, what do you want from me? It's not a crime, and Benson's like, well if this is connected to a nine year old death, and he's like, lol, no, not at all.
I've done nothing illegal.
Benson screams, it's a murder manual and she blames porn and he's like, listen, take it up with the court and not my fucking business. So now, Joel de la Fuente aka Taru says he uses software that ages kids to find missing kids, but backwards, so that's how he does it, and then he does it to Benson's face, and it's really fucked up. And Craigan calls them sick bastards and he's mad they aren't breaking any laws, and
Cabot's like, no, I know. This really is a pickle, and Benson and Stabler are a dog with a bone and they need to get this company, and Elliott hates the Supreme Court. Cabot's like, okay, okay, if we can prove that Billings provided assistance to Tommy Hedges in the rape and murder of Shri, then it's facilitation. And to get that done he has to make a deal with she needs to make a deal with the devil, and the devil is Tommy, and she goes, listen, if you
help us, you don't get the death penalty. Trevor Langen aka mister mushtra Hargate says, no, we need better, not good enough, and she's like, he needs light at the end of the tunnel. She says, fine, murder too, So twenty five years and he likes that it means he can like get out and commit another fucking crime in twenty five years. So Cabot crosses her arms and starts getting scooped. When did you start receiving emails from xed out?
So January, right when he got out of jail. They immediately started sending ads for websites and they had little samples, and he was tempted, but he didn't give in until he finally saw the story of Janet and there were a few lines and a girl dressed like a princess. These guys really love a princess vibe, and it was very exciting. So he signed up and he read the whole story and he wanted to feel the way that he used to.
So that's when he ordered the tea.
And so that's enough information and they go and arrest this guy for facilitating murder, the murder of Shree Latham, and he's like, you're joking and they arrest him. So Cabit and Stabler walk and talk and she's like, this is a really huge gamble, like I can still lose it, and free speech is.
Gonna be brought up.
And Barry Mordoc walks in and it's Cabot's old law professor and he's and he's like.
Oh, we're going to be doing business together.
And they find out he's repping Stanley Billings because he loves the First Amendment and you know the game free speech, first murder. And so she says there's a case where if you publish instructions to aid someone in committing a crime, then boom, baby, you are guilty. And he's like good, but it's not that it's virtual pornography and it is protected. Stabler keeps popping popping in and saying stuff and they
ignore him. They like talk over his head, and it does remind me of his character and deep where he plays the personal trainer who keeps talking and no one respects him, and it's like, wow, I didn't realize they were so connected.
Stabler is a jock.
At the end of the day, you know, Cabot and Barry tussle, and he's excited for the fight and happy he taught her so well, and she goes, yes, and remember this, the thing speaks for itself. If it looks like kitty porn, then it is kitty porn. And then he smiles and he goes, but there was no kid in the kitty porn. So Melinda's on the stand and she's talking about her vomiting to death with her hands tied behind her back, and it's pretty gruesome.
Cabbot shows a drawing in the story of.
Janet and it is identical on how they found the body, and so Tommy copy copied the website like every single detailed. Barry kept gets up and goes, what killed Shari? Choked on vomit? He says, So she wasn't choked by a photograph, She wasn't kidnapped by a story or bound and gagged by a website. No to all the questions, and then Cabot knows she's been taken. Tommy's on the stand. Why'd you kill her?
Dude?
He says, he never meant to kill her. He only meant to rape her, which you know doesn't look that good on the stand, but you know, we love, we love someone.
Who takes accountability.
He says he wanted to rape her because he couldn't stop thinking about being with a little girl. And they talk about chemical caustration again, and then that it did work for over two years, but impulses began again after he got out of jail and getting those emails and advertising for child porn stories. He didn't sign up, and he tried to ignore them, but the emails kept coming, and he tried so hard not to look, but he looked, and you know, they said, she's waiting for you, give
her what she wants. The tears well in his eyes. This man is talented. He couldn't think about anything else he brought, so he bought the story and he copied the story in his actions, and it told me, you know, he says, it told me exactly what to do. Nothing further for Cabot, but Barry's obviously going to fuck this guy up. He brings up a case for nineteen ninety nine for the abuse of a thirteen year old girl,
and he goes and did a story make you do that. No, how about a ten year old in California in nineteen ninety five? Another story to blame? No, what was when was the first time you were attracted to young girls?
That was porn?
Right?
Or were you just sick in the head.
He's like, I don't know, And Barry's like, stop trying to blame something else for your issues. And he cries and is like, they wouldn't leave me alone while I was trying to control my feelings. And he says, but tell me, Tommy, did you enjoy kidnapping Sheri? And he says yes, And I'm like, lie, lie on the sand, what are you doing?
Can I also say that?
It says he that the chemical crustration worked for two years, but they were two years while you were in jail, because the email started coming.
Right after he got out of jail.
Now I know, so for two years that you're in jail, not around any children, it worked. How can we say that that's working there's no children around. Maybe you're just like not having the thoughts anyway, And that just hit me.
So so then he goes, did you have second thoughts over what you were doing? He says yes, and then Barry is like so you knew it was wrong, and he does, and he says yes, and he cries again, why aren't you lying? Barry says, whose fault is that? He says mine, He sniffles. The porn guy shifts in his seat, like I have play and so I gotta get out of here. And then the poorn guy is on the stand. He goes, listen, I have kids. The
last thing I would do is make kitty porn. And then he said that he made this product for people with youth preferences, and Cabot's like, you mean pedophiles, and he's like, maybe a small percentagear, but hey, it happens. So she pivots and asks if he makes any effort and to minimize marketing to sex offenders. He goes, we market to people over twenty one who enjoy adult entertainment. And so she says, you think child's rape is entertainment.
He says it is not against the law to explore the dark side of human nature, and they fight back and forth about kitty porn versus virtual pornography. He says it's a safe release, and she goes, you don't care if it's safe or not. You just want people to pay for your porn. Barry objects, Cabot says nothing further, but Billings goes to sit. The judge asks for counsel
to meet up at the bench. So the judge asks for counsel to meet at the bench, and Barry's like, listen, she doesn't have she didn't meet the burden of proof. You're on her and the jury might convict for emotional reasons but no evidence. And the judge agrees she has to prove that the defendant knew that Tommy was likely to commit a crime. She will dismiss the case and she only has it until tomorrow. Gavel Gavel, recess. And I love this judge's soft tone speaking voice. It was
very asmr and soothing to me. Cabots at the bar drinking, and Novak would never Novak would be doing work, you know what I mean, Go write a report?
What are you doing at the bar?
So Craigan goes to check up on her, and she's like, fuck, I need a smoking gun. And Cragan and co. Are looking and they just can't find anything. And Cabot's like, listen, this dude is all business. I just don't believe that he did not target sex offenders, like, this is no accident. He Craigan orders a ginger ale and goes, I can resist everything except temptation. And then that's a light bulb moment for Alex and she's like, oh, She's like Hedges said he tried to resist. I wonder just how much
he was tempted. And so she is coked up and talking to Tommy in his cell. How many times? How many times did Excel email you ads for their porn? He says fifty or sixty. He only opened one. He deleted the rest of them. He selected opt out options to get off the list, but emails kept coming, so boom.
Barry and Billings meet with Cabot, and Billings is yelling and he's like, I got a ton of employees, so we made a mistake, like one request, like not my problem, and they go, not one request twenty one times in a row. This is not an accident, it's a policy. Barry's like, nice, try out, but not aggressive advertising isn't against the law, and she's like, fine, we'll see what
the jury says. Barry gives his freedom of speech closing argument, and Cabot gets up and is like, obviously, Tommy's a murderer. But Stanley played a part in this crime and he is morally guilty, but you have to figure out if he's legally guilty as well.
And the answer is yes.
They put a deadly weapon in his hand even after he said no twenty one times, so you are responsible, she slaid that. So now the jury comes back and they've reached a verdict guilty.
He is shook. Cabot is shook. She looks proud.
Barry says congrats, and he's like, I'll see you on appeal, and you got your conviction without stomping on the constitution.
Way to go.
He's very proud, and she's like, well, people are still using AI porns, so maybe not a full success. And they enter the elevator together and he says everybody won, and she says not Cherie Latham, And that's the end, because it's not a game. Barry Mordoc, you wisted little guy. And you know, our girls really do work for the victims. And this was a very beautiful end.
But it's like this guy does have money, and Barry Mordock's right, like, he'll just appeal and appeal until this gets tossed out. We've seen other cases like that. You know, like this is like, it's great that she got the conviction, but I don't think it will stand up for a while. But thank you for that beautiful recap. Take a listen to these words from our sponsors and we'll be right back.
Okay.
So I know that in this case they actually referenced jean Benet, but if you watch the episode, like, there's really not that much of a similarity to it, Like the case like it starts with like a little bit of a jambreet red herring, but it doesn't go the same way. So there's another episode, an SVU that does reference Joan Benemore resembles Jeanne more closely. So I'm going to save that for that. This case does resemble a cold case from Utah, the murder of a three year
old beauty queen named Rachel Runyan. I had no ideas I know, I had no idea you could put kids in pageants. And she was like two when she won the pageant. I think it was the year before she went missing. So Rachel was the middle child with two brothers, being raised in Sunset, Utah, where the year before her abduction and murder, she had won the title of Little Miss Sunset. On August twenty sixth, nineteen eighty two, Rachel was playing in a playground fifteen feet from her family's home.
So the mom said she was making lunch and she could actually see her kids at this playground and she was communicating to them, and when she called them in for lunch, she was out there with her two brothers. The kids came in back without the sister because apparently a young black man had approached them and tried to
lure them with candy. The guy played with the three kids for a few minutes, and I don't know why the mom didn't see that, but then they walked part of the way to his car before thinking better of it, and the older brother, justin age five, was like, Rachel, don't go with him. And when Rachel turned to walk away, the guy just grabbed her and put her in his car, screaming and took off in a blue nineteen seventy three Ford Pinto Squire station wagon with woodgrain stripes on the side,
a very distinct car. Their mother called the police when only the two sons return home. First, she checked a supermarket because the brother said he was going to take us to the supermarket for ice cream. So she ran to the supermarket asking if anyone had seen this man with her daughter, then called the police. Like, so it's twenty minutes now, this is a missing white girl in nineteen eighty two, So of course a task force was
set up immediately. Through Justin and another kid who was also approached by this man at the playground, they were able to put together a description that this man was black, thirty to thirty five, six feet tall, medium billed, afro, handlebar mustache. However, Jason, now an adult, has claimed more recently that it was a Hispanic man who took his sister. He thought that it was more. He was described as
a light, complexted black man. But this guy, Justin is like, they believe the older kid because he was ten and I was, but I think the guy was Latino. But the only witnesses were kids. There were no video foot there was no video footage, there was no forensic evidence. Tips came in, but they ultimately went nowhere. There was a ton of publicity around this case. The parents flew to New York City for a press conference. They went on The Today Show, offered a twenty thousand dollars reward.
It was big news back then and then about sadly. About three weeks after her abduction, a family that was like playing in a stream in Mountain Green, Utah, about fifty miles from sunset, discovered what they thought was a doll, but it was Rachel, naked with her hands bound behind her back, much like the victim in Little Cherie in the episode Family I d'd her from a chip tooth and her ear piercings, but the body was so decomposed at that point that cause of death was never determined.
Her parents had a funeral for her, and her gravestone read she brought a nation to its knees. So her murder prompted the Rachel Alert, which was a child's adduction alert system in two thousand and two, and it was used in the disappe pherence of Elizabeth Smart in O two and in the abduction of three month old Nicholas Triplett in O three. Both kids were found alive, but then in three it was replaced by the nationwide Amber Alert system.
Also, she died in eighty two.
It took twenty years for them to call it the Rachel Alert thing, But you know, I guess two thousand and two is when those kinds of things started coming out. The case also prompted the passage of the US Congressional Missing Children's Act in nineteen eighty three, mandating additional resources going towards ongoing missing children cases and getting descriptions of
missing children into an FBI National Crime Information database. And in Utah they test the Amber Alert twice a year, and one of the dates is on eight twenty six the anniversary of her abduction. In May of twenty sixteen, the park where she was abducted from was renamed Rachel Runyan Memorial Park. Very very sad. And then this is one of Utah's most famous cold cases. They do not
know who did this. And in twenty twenty two a woman claimed her uncle may have been the one who killed Rachel, but the Sunset police like didn't really find it credible enough to investigate, and so still at large. It's been forty years since she was killed and nothing.
It's sad because it reminded me of that case that we covered in Conscience where the kid just went for a walk, like one hundred feet to his school at the end of the road or something, and somebody and a kid got him, you know, or but in this case it was four blocks in the shar relay than case. And in this she was at a playground fifteen feet outside the mom's window. She said she was making lunch and talking to the kids like while they were playing.
So it's really so sad.
But and like in the pictures of her, obviously her picture that's most publicized is like her as a beauty queen, and she is very cute. But it's why do you need to put two year olds and three year olds and beauty pageants?
I don't get it.
Like by the time they're eight or nine, if they're begging, I don't know what you do. I still wouldn't do it, but they're asking for it, Like a two or three year old, does she know what she's even doing competing in a beauty pageant?
I don't know.
So this episode also deals with the legality and ethics regarding computer generated child sex abuse material, which I'm just gonna call se Sam from now on because I am saying it so much.
And this is a huge issue right now.
Like when I google this, there were like ten recent articles talking about this, Like does this kind of material encourage predators, as the episode clearly is taking that stance, or does it protect children by providing victimless child sex abuse images? So let's talk about it. Because the dawn of AI is upon us. This is becoming more and
more common. I found so much about this. The Washington Post said that in June that thousands of AI generated child sex images had been found on the Dark Web, and that seems like thousands seems like a low number, like I would assume there would be millions, especially if computers are just like churning these out. Rebecca Portnoff, who is the director of Data Science at Thorn, which is Ashton Kutcher's nonprofit about seesam and.
Child trafficking that anymore, baby, Yeah.
But she said quote children's images, including the content of known victims, are being repurposed for this really evil output. So it's not just like you're creating like a child like a child's sex abuse image out of nowhere. It is being mined from actual photos of victims as well
as just images of children. So Thorn has witnessed a month over month increase in the number of these images as of late, especially since chat GPT all this stuff started coming into the fold really mainstream wise a few months ago. While there are systems in place to block these kinds of images from the Internet, the systems are designed to catch known child sex abuse images, not newly generated images. Like they can't just catch they can't just
like recognize what's a bad image. They just they have to be told what's bad images. And this can fuck up law enforcement as well, who are already underwater trying to identify actual victims, which we discussed in Collateral Damages, Like remember the guy who was in the office was just like the dead eyes, and like it's just a never ending like game of whack mole to try to
find who's behind these images. And so now they're gonna have to spend time figuring out what images are real versus generated, And it's hard to know how to prioritize cases when you don't know. The Washington Posts had a quote that said Justice Apartment officials who combat child exploitations say such images still are illegal even if the child shown is AI generated, But they could cite no case in which someone had been charged for creating one, So.
The legal area is very great here.
There's a company called Stability AI which runs a diffusion model called stable Diffusion.
So diffusion models are like.
An AI tool that can create a convincing image just by typing in a prompt. So essentially probably it sounds like what chat gpt does, but these, I guess are more precise tools. Like one is called Dolly Dall dash E one is called mid Journey, and then Stable Diffusion.
These are a few of the big diffusion models. So the company that owns that is called Stability AI, and they said in a statement that they ban the creation of child sex abuse images and assists law enforcement and investigations into quote unquote illegal or malicious uses, and has removed explicit material from its training data, reducing the quote
ability for bad actors to generate ob seeing content. But the problem is the tool is available to anyone, it's open source, and they can use it however they want. So even though you click a little box that says I will not use this to exploit or harm miners in any way, the features that flag this cut type of content are very easy to get around. It's very
easy to like code around it. If you're just like a person that knows computers and the trust me these guys are on the dark Web comparing notes on how to do this.
Shit so stability.
AI's chief executive is named Amaud Mustack. He told Verge another publication called Verge. He said, quote, Ultimately, it's people's responsibility as to whether they're ethical, moral and legal and how they operate this technology. The bad stuff that people create will be a very very small percentage of the
total use. That's what this guy says. On dark Web, pedophile fours users openly discuss how to create this c SAM and get around porn filters, and one of the ways they do it is by creating like by using non English languages, which they don't think are getting monitors as heavily as English language stuff. They also chat about creating fake underage personas to win over young targets online,
Like it's not even just about making gross images. It's like, oh, here's a picture of me, and it's like a picture of a little girl you created as a pedophile that you're using to befriend another kid on the internet. AI generated c SAM exists in a legal gray area because fully AI generated images do not depict a real child being harmed. And I think this might be what they were talking about when they were railing against the Supreme
Court in this episode. In two thousand and two, the Supreme Court struck down two provisions of a nineteen ninety six congressional ban on virtual child pornography, ruling that the wording was broad enough to potentially criminalize literary depictions of teenage sexuality. So they they, you know, were like, oh, you're the way that you're describing this is too broad, Like we might not be able to have some of the you know, literature that we have. It would be
too constrictive this law. So but the problem is, back then generated Se Salem was pretty distinguishable from the Sea Salm that featured actual victims. Like back then, it was like, what is this Like probably looked like our PowerPoint presentations on when we're on the doing our live shows, like not very it's not very technically you know, advanced images. But now the gap between those types of images has closed almost completely. It's like very hard to tell the
difference between what is real and what's fake. So, according to The Washington Post, two officials with the Justice Department's Child Exploitation and Obscenity Section said that the images are illegal under a law that bans any computer generated image that is sexually explicit and depicts someone who is quote virtually indistinguishable from a real child. So it sounds like it's illegal, but then it also sounds like there's ways around it. It's even if it's illegal, it seems like
it's impossible to police. Another federal law, which passed in two thousand and three, all around the time that this episode came out, bans any computer generated image showing a child engaging in sexually explicit conduct if it is obscene and lacks serious artistic value. The law notes that, quote it is not a required element of any offense that the minor depicted actually exist.
End quote.
So that sounds like good laws, But I just don't know if we are figuring out a way to stop this from being disseminated so quickly and in such huge volume. There are some proposed solutions, including digital watermarks, but that's all just being figured out, Like everyone would have to get on board with digital watermarks, like using the same kind of system, and like one guy said, it's kind of like we're we're doing this while riding a bike
or something like that. I forgot what his term was, but it was like, we're basically we're building the plane while we're flying in it or something whatever phrases, Like, the whole technology is just growing and changing at such a rapid pace. So the legislation obviously, as we know,
is what moves at a snail's pace. And a huge problem, it seems also, is that this type of child sex abuse material can be produced so quickly and such huge quantity that it can serve to normalize sexualizing children or make sexual abuse seem commonplace. Plus we forget that a lot of predators use these kind of materials to persuade children that it's normal, like, oh, look, do you want to try this?
This seems normal?
And it's like a fully generated image of maybe even a child looking happy doing what they're doing. You know. Like, so it's really fucked up, and I hope we figure out something with it. Another thing this episode touched on that I do think is interesting is the recidivism among
child predators and like pedophiles. And I guess there's this whole thing where like an article came out many many years ago that says that eighty percent of pedophiles reoffend, and apparently that tistic is just made up, and the Supreme Court has literally quoted that before, like everybody thinks that's the statistic.
And it's not true.
But there is so much information on the recidivism, and I truly could not tell what was legit and what wasn't. Like there were law papers, but it's like I can't tell. I don't think I'm qualified to talk about such a huge topic when there's so much information out there about that and their studies, and I don't know how to interpret studies because I'm not a scholar.
So but it is interesting.
I did read a bunch of stuff that was saying, like, is the thing about child sex offenders reoffending? Is it overblown? But you guys can check that out. The internet is at your disposal, sadly, and that's that. Why is everything so complicated? I know these I feel like they have to figure out a watermark system, Like they have to figure out some kind of watermark system that. But I don't think it's going to stop what the people are using this material for.
It's all too much, all right, Yeah, let's keep it moving. Let's keep it moving.
Yeah, yeah, let's get it to our post mortem.
All right.
So the post mortem is bleak because it feels like child's computer generated sex abuse material is uh, child sex abuse material is the future, and it's gonna be like whack a mole. I know you're very good at wacka mole, but it feels like it's going to be impossible whack a mole to get rid of and.
Fuck yeah, I don't know.
It's really interesting that I could not find like definitive literature or like anything about whether pedophiles can be rehabilitated. Like if you do, like dangle this kind of material in front of people, are they gonna bite no matter what, even if they have been like, are doing chemical crasstration or whatever? You know?
Are we just talking or are you doing it right now? We're doing a post mortem?
Right?
Oh you are? Okay? Yeah?
Yeah yeah, I just felt like you were talking to me. You usually don't really talk to me during these, so I didn't know what was happening.
Wait, what do you mean I don't usually talk to you during these? You usually just present the post mortem. No, you're talking about what would sister PEG do when I present it?
I'm sorry, I'm like, have I been doing one hundred and fifty episodes of you not looking at you during the post mortem?
What the fuck are you talking about? I fucked up. I thought you're doing what was sister peg and I just got our friends and child.
That makes sense because Casey was just asking about it.
Yeah, no, we should leave this all in.
But I was just looking at flights quickly because I was like, oh, I'll change my flight so I can make it to our friend's daughter's birthday. And then you're looking at me and I'm like what, bitch, Like, yeah, it's gonna be dark, and then we fully have lost it. If you're tuning in for the first time, we're usually a little more on top of it.
But we're getting all.
Of this in.
Okay.
I think it's fun. They need to see us, they need to see us for who we are. I remember there was one comment someone was mad at us about something and they're like, how you portray yourself? And I'm like, we get to be ourselves. We don't have h I guess we do have HR, but they don't. They told me not to say cunt once and I said, I'll walk walk. Are we feminism or are we not feminism? I don't know what to tell you. Yes, Oh, this
is horrible. Pedophiles are horrible. Child pageants are horrible. I you know, children should be able to like live their dream. I always hate when it's like you shouldn't wear that there are pedophiles. It's like no, no, no, kids should be able to wear what they want, be what they want. I think young children's girls should be able to not have to wear a bikini top. Like what is this fucking anti pedophile theater we're doing?
You know?
So I think children, you know, if volleyball uniform, like, we should be able to wear what we want as youth. But something about pageantry is not that for me. Pageantry yeah, it's too It's like you're you're come and get it. That's what I feel you're doing.
I mean fact, like I understand, like, look, pageants, when you get older, when you're like in your teens or twenties, people are like, oh, there's scholarship involved, like like there's a philanthropy aspect. Okay, fine, if that's your dream, fine, but like once your post puberty and you can like understand what like you know what you're even getting into. Like I don't really get what a three or a four year old or a five year old or a six year old really is getting out of pageantry, like
just like having makeup on and doing your hair. But happy to hear from parents of people who put their kids into pageants that young. I just don't get it at all.
And unfortunately, I think it's like mom's I think it's parents living because that dad in the episode, like that was for him.
Yeah, and if I worshipped her, I would like never say that language about my children, but like.
Toddlers and tiaras, like it's like the mom is obviously like, wow, my kid is pretty, and I'm not so I'm gonna do this to her, Yeah, no offense.
And then well yeah, or like I did pageants and I never got that far, but I know my daughter could get farther, you know, like that kind of thing.
Yeah, And you know, because I like the talent of it all. I like the speech portions. I even love the creativity, like put on a fun outfit. I think it's the the nose job in the episode, the eyelashes, the wigs, the it's just it's the flipper or they.
Get a little flipper.
If they're missing their two front teeth, they get a little fake two front teeth called.
I mean even I actually don't even hate the flipper. The Flipper's fine because these these kids look disgusting with the holes in their mouth.
I'm for flippers. They have gap tooth. Bitch.
Yeah, yeah, for sure, I'm I'm pro flipper.
That's that's what I'm That's what I'm part of.
Oh gosh, yeah, there's just better activities. There's just because I believe, you know, I believe group sports, team sports really help kids.
Let's move on to our what would Sister peg do? Our weekly segment where we point you to more resources that can help flesh out today's topics. I'm obviously not going to point you to anything about child pageantry, but I wanted to get eyes on an article about child sexual abuse material that's featured on the site for National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. There's a lot of data about how many victims there are of c SAM, like what the overarching issues are.
The data is all there.
There's also resources for victims, so that's at the National Center for Missing Unexploited Children.
It's Missing Kids dot org.
But there's specific article that we're linking to in our show notes as well as in our Instagram stories the day that this episode comes out and saved forever in our WWSPD highlight on our Instagram page and.
Thank you for that very important and next week we'll be doing Secrets, Season two, episode twelve Secrets.
You guys are the best.
Thank you so much for listening, for coming to live shows, for writing us, for complimenting us. We love you forever and we'll see you next week.
Mai, That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.
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Thank you so much to our producer Casey O'Brien and our associate producer Christina.
Chamberlain, and to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers, Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgareff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media, Dun dun