Alta Kockers w/ Michael Kostroff

Of the law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on. These are our stories. Dune Done.

Hello everyone, and welcome to That's Messed Up and SVU podcast. I'm your host Kara Klank.

And I'm Liza Traeger and we love SVU. We hate criminals, but we talk about them. And then we talked to celebs, which we love.

We love celebs, but first we love the chart.

We chant out weeds.

How we plug the tour. I'm gonna just get let me get it out of the way up top. We As of this episode's release, we will have just wrapped up our full Southern leg and thank you to everyone who came out to those shows. We will be back out in November. Guys, we're going to you Midwest. We are coming back to Chicago. We are going to be at Zany's in Rosemont on November thirteenth.

Come out and see us in the Burbs. It's a nice, big venue, it's huge.

I love Zane's in downtown Chicago as well, But you might not be able to get a ticket because that one is selling out pretty quick, and so come out to Rosma and see us. I don't believe there is an Alan Jackson's I love this bar anymore?

But is that what it was called? But I know it's Toby Keith.

I think, oh, Toby Keith's I love this bar. But you can still find some good stuff out there. We will be then bopping over to Indianapolis on the fifteenth of November, Columbus on the sixteenth, Cleveland on the seventeenth, Detroit on the eighteenth, and then Madison, Wisconsin on the twentieth. Guys, please get your tickets, come see us. So many people are writing us saying I didn't get tickets for the DC show.

I waited.

Don't wait because some of these shows sell out, and we really want to see all of you. And you know, have you see our Life Live show, which is, in my opinion, really fucking fun. And that's it, Lisa, what's going on? I want to tell you a story when you get a chance to tell me a story, Well, just something really funny I thought happened to me in Boston. So I went to Boston for a wedding this past weekend and we're in the time machine. So I know

Why are you coming towards us quickly?

It's a very brightly lit area of Beacon Hill, which is like a very nice area of Boston, And I'm kind of like, I don't think you're going to attack us, but what the fuck is going on? And he goes, oh, sorry, I'm just looking for clink and I go, wait, what the fuck is going on? And Jackie goes like, I

A Friday night at eleven o'clock. This is your brain, sir.

Yeah, but clink reminds me of clink clink from the Jersey Housewives, you know.

Oh yes, but you know, always been associated with the sound of clinking.

Because that's about it. That's more positive.

I do also want to say we both saw Don't Worry Darling separately.

Oh yes we did. I went and saw it with my husband for a little date night. Lisa saw it in New York with a pal, and I mean so much hype I wanted to see.

There was truly.

It was annoying because a bunch of stuff I wanted to see I just missed that weekend, Like I just missed, Nope, Lisa's movie that now I'm gonna have to watch it on streaming.

I well you can. Also, yeah, thank you to all.

Of the listeners who just sent us clips that they took in the theater of Lisa's.

Park, because now I feel like I have seen it. I can post the photo.

I wonder if it's time where if I could finally put it on the grid and be like, listen, I was in this and I worked with a horse.

Yeah, I think it's like maybe once it's on streaming, but like, yeah, it's not in at least in LA.

It's not in theaters anymore.

Because I wanted to see that and I wanted to see Boddy's Body's Bodies. Both had just left the theaters, and so I wasn't super hot on seeing Don't worry, Darling, but it's was the best. Everything was so horror, and I didn't really want to see horror if it wasn't Body's Body's Bodies, because that seemed like funny horror. So we went and I really enjoyed going to see it and watching it. But I found a lot of holes in it that I did talk to Liza about.

Yeah, I didn't mind the holes.

Like the moment I saw the trailer before all this drama, I was like, from the moment I saw the trailer, I'm like, I'm seeing this, this is a genre. I and joy I like a housewife thriller. What's going on?

Yeah, I like That's what I liked about it because it said it said like thriller. When I was looking at all the different movies, because my husband was at first like really, and I go, I'm sorry, I'm not going to see one of these nasty, rip up people's bodies horror movies. And there really wasn't. I'd already seen Bros. Which, by the way, everybody goes see Bros. It's fucking so funny, and so there was like nothing really else. But I had a really good time going. And as I said

No, it was an enjoyable thing.

It's like I feel nowadays, it's like this is the worst that says the best, that says a scan and it's like, can I just watch a movie and have a good time, Like you know what I mean.

It's like I had a good time.

So like my opinion where it's like we're forgetting that, I don't know.

I loved it. I had a great time.

I had a great time and visually gorgeous and amazing acting. And I also thought, okay, there was like a couple things I think like I would have done differently, or I like didn't like some of the rules, Like I didn't understand some of the rules of the world, as I told you.

But those things don't bother me.

Our friend Kate Berlant is in it, and she's so funny asif Ali so funny in it.

And there's an SVU guy in it. There is a detective.

Yeah, and the guy who plays cal Doon, the guy who plays cal Doone is in it, the one who's like the one who has a fake that he's in a relationship with Rollins for the green card guy.

And I deserve some loving too, So I studied. I liked it.

I thought it was exciting. I enjoyed watching it. I was like, what's going on. Olivia Wilde's a great actress and like give it to me. I don't know, but there are some issues for sure. But it was hard to find like really in depth good analysis because everyone was into the drama and all of that, and so, yeah, like a little frustrating that it's not Yeah.

Which I do feel like there is a pretty heavy like undercurrent of misogyny going on where it's like, no one would care about this if it was happening to a male director, like, oh, you're fucking the female star of your movie, Like no one would care, you know, like.

Yeah, actors not getting along, Christian Bale screaming at people.

Yeah, just like so annoying.

But it's and I hope she gets to direct and have a great career and like fuck everyone and we'll like it'll be the Britney Spears and then in the future it'll be like, Wow, we really fucked up, and you know we never learned.

We're just like horrific mammals on the planet. Yeah, Monica Lewinski, a lot of other people we've fucked over.

Uh it is this episode is wide, releasing on ten twenty five. I know we have another episode beforehand, but please register to vote if you have not registered to vote. I just saw someone in their stories put that there. They got an email that was like, hello, your voter registration has been canceled, and it was like, not something they did.

They didn't move, they didn't do anything. So just double check.

Just hop on there and double check that you're getting your ballot Cuz I really cannot believe the amount of like money that is going towards this, like football player who paid for an abortion but is saying that no one else can have abortions. Like I just relate you guys. You got to vote for Warnock and George.

Please.

And that's my that's my daily soapbox about politics. Yeah, everything sucks my weekly. Well, we don't have to go right into everything sucks. I'm just telling people to vote, okay. Also, I wanted to give a shout out to Helen.

She was wearing a sweater at a show in West Covina, and I said, I'm going to shout you out, bitch, and so I'm doing it.

So that's that we think it for.

The flag case case little pink.

Flag but it reminds me of The Simpsons. Do you know the episode I'm talking about.

Homer has a little flag of the library and he goes go school. It's the Thomas Edison episode where he's trying to invent stuff and he's at the school library and they're like, are you a student here, sir, and he goes, yeah, go school, and it's just school on his little flag.

Oh my god.

I took a tour of a potential elementary school for Rosie and they took us to the library and I like breathed in and the mel like took me back like I've been to like regular libraries, but they're just so big, like kid libraries are so small that like the scent of library book was just like concentrated, and like me and all the other parents on the tour were like, oh my god, I've literally been transported like

I do. I couldn't think of a book smell.

I can't really fantasize or feel a library smell at the moment.

Like when I walked in, it just reminded me of like the cards. We would like sign our names out on books, like maybe I'm a little older than you, and those were gone by the time you were in.

We had cards, but it was had cards a stamp. It was a stamp with the date.

Well you did a stamp for the date to return, right, But then you would sign your name and like every time you checked out a book you could see like the last six people who took it out. Oh wow, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, god, everything's cool.

What episode are we doing? Where are we?

We got a good episode for you. Let's get started.

You're gonna love it.

All right, guys, we're doing Alta Cockers.

So annoying.

Such a Warren light bullshit. But it's not season twenty.

I think that's him. Warren is still here. Warren is still there at twenty. He came back at like seventeen or something.

Oh so, just the episode title is ten, So Alta Cockers is ten. Okay, Oh no, you're right. It must not be him.

He must have come back in twenty one, because you're right, that's not that's not twenty letters. You're right, you're right, So he's not there. This all the hackers though, did you look up what it means. No, Oh okay, I looked it up when the episode came on because I was like, what the fuck?

They never say it? What does this mean?

It's like a Yiddish thing that means like old fuss budgety old people.

You know, like a perfect title. So you've been wanting to do this since the beginning. I feel like when we were pitching this podcast, you brought up this episode.

Well, yes, because I'll tell you this was one of the test episodes I did with my other my original co hosts. We did this as a test episode, but I think she did the crime and I did the episode. So this time I did the crime and I was remembering all of it that she had told me. But yeah, so somewhere there's like an episode of me and Jackie Zebrowski talking about this episode. But that's why I talked about it in pitching because I had like already gone through it and done it.

Yeah, I remember you being obsessed with this, so I am happy that we finally got to do it.

Well.

Also, the crime, the crime, the people this is based on is like kind of New York folklore and like people I had never heard of, So that's why I thought was interesting about it.

Yeah, and it is a good episode.

It opens on a close up of some red lipsticked lips and there's like a poetry erotic reading happening. I would say, we don't know exactly like a book. I mean, it's going to be a book. But at first I was like, what is this sex show?

This shop that they're in. Do you recognize this?

I'm I'm almost positive this is the Housing Works bookstore in like uh in like Sova, Houston, Yeah, soho because Jared had a comedy show here forever and this really has the vibes of it.

So if you know, But I don't remember there being a balcony at the Housing Works one.

There was in a part of it maybe I don't know. We got to find out where this was. I need to know. I'm gonna like google it. But keep going.

So there's a microphone and then it cuts to a wide shot and it's a bookstore but it's lit like a nightclub and there are strung Christmas lights all over, so you know these people are hip. We see the reader performers wearing an off the shoulder top with a collar around their neck, and we hear look I hear Tyota his tongue felt like a worm. And then as she continues, ominous music starts to play and it pans up to the balcony level, and then there's a spotlight,

This is like a very moody book reading. I feel like book.

Reading is usually just like someone sitting up at a table, like regular lights, and this is like sexual mood lighting.

Oh.

I was gonna say the book that I brought with me for this trip, I brought Arden Marine's book.

Oh, straight out a Little Compton, Little miss Little Compton.

Yeah, but it's good.

I started it. But I'm like you, reading is tough. Yeah, it's so tough. Yeah, it's a very moody reading. There's a man we shouldn't trust. And then they focus on a goate mustache man who's very into the reading. Couples are kissing, they're rubbing on each other as they listen, and then they zoom in on another man's face and then another man's So it's like, okay, it's enough.

I don't need this parade.

But people are clapping, which is nice, and there's a blonde bob with bangs. So there's just like a lot of people. Everybody. Everyone is shady. That's what I wrote. Everyone is shady. And now the lights are fully on and it's a book signing time. And so the book is called Barracuda by Bobby O'Rourke.

Blue Barracuda. I think it's called right Oka, Yeah, yeah, yeah, blue Bear Barracuda, which which I only mentioned because all the lighting is very blue and like, I feel like it's part of it.

You're totally right.

So while there's so while Bobby is signing the books, there's a man behind her, probably like pr editor or something like that, but he does look like he would work at the Trump administration, and he's busy typing on his cell phone while listening to, you know, the people meeting Bobby. Everyone is now kissing Bobby's ass, like, oh my god, you're amazing to read, this is extraordinary.

How did you do it? Oh my god, You've had such a hard life.

And they ask Walker, the blonde floppy hair man, like how did you find this person? And he says that Bobby actually found him so pretty wild, and then the woman says, color me green.

Not sure what that means, because jealousy is green is the color of jealousy, so it's called me jealous, so it's like, color me green, like I'm green, I'm green with envy. Essentially, she wants to write no because she he's another agent and is like, I wish a huge bestseller just fucking walked off the street into my life.

That would be amazing. Yeah, that is okay.

So they talk business and then Bobby's over it and walks away as the Glitterati and Walter continue to talk about how amazing she is, and then she grabs a drink and sneaks off quick down the stairs to escape, and then it cuts to a shot of the city, bad news, police lights and someone saying it's a nasty one, sonny, and that we are here with Careese and Finn's voices on the scene and they're talking so basically book reading,

Which it's funny that this episode was only from twenty eighteen, and like, now saying that would not be it would not be cool for Benson to say that.

Yeah, but but then how would you say it if it's like that, If it's a hate crime, you'd be like, oh, this is a trans woman.

Yeah, you'd be like, crime, she's trans, so this could be a hate crime.

Yeah, yeah, so and then they show her face laying on the cold cement with a pool of blood around her, and straight to the credits. Yeah, so now we're back from the credits and straight into a walk and talk.

But this is speedy.

This is like an Olympic style pace of walking and talking. Chrisy says, we pulled prints from the brick, but they're not in any database. But Bobby is sixteen years old. That's sad.

Ye.

They also keep saying Bobby is a he and he ran away from home. He gave a fake address, and then yeah, I wrote, like season twenty, what the fuck is going on? But Rollins is reading the book and Bobby's life was tough and they pulled tricks.

To get by.

So then Creasy says the word transgender, and Rollins is like, actually, no, Bobby isn't. He just realized he made more money writing as a girl and decided to go with it. So maybe Svo is correct in all of this. I don't know how they knew it or Rollins knows it.

Better, I guess.

And how does Rowlins know that? Like does he say in the book, I'm actually a boy. I just dressed up like a girl, Like no, because that would fuck it up. Maybe they talked to the yeah guy who knows yea. But so that's different. So that's just because like yeah, more like drag. Well he's just across, he's just cross cross dressing.

Yes, that's what it wears.

So Finn has something and he has the video from the bookstore after party and he was like, well, if you're counting, Bobby had three drinks. And then this man on the tape is seen following Bobby out back. So check in with the bookstore, live says, and let's get this guy. So we're in the bookstore and the workers looking at the picture and is saying this is a tragedy and that Bobby was going to be one of the greats.

He's really distressed and he can't I d the guy though.

There was a short guest list, but then it was first come, first surf. If you want info on that list, go talk to Bobby's publisher. The worker says, so our detectives had to pitch Dark Press. So Walter is chatting and explains their journey together. One day, he got a manuscript and read it in one day, but there was no name or address on the story, and then he received a call a few days later, and this changed

And it's like direct deposit twenty eighteen.

But the bank also doesn't have an address and he used the ninety second street.

Why for that?

So Benson is like, Okay, let's get down to the basics. Why would anyone want to hurt Bobby? And Finn goes, well, maybe for the money Bobby has, Like Bobby had half a million in his bank account, and Benson makes a face like what And that money comes from U selling the rights to the book to Hollywood. And while the men in Benson discuss, Rollins rushes in with a laptop

I don't I don't, I don't know. I don't think that's import but I don't know it.

Yeah, what is important is that he bought it with a credit card. So we get this person's name, and this guy's name is William Glover and he lives in Forest Hills and they're at his home on November nineteenth.

He's wearing a.

Vest and is like a suburb daddy and he's playing in front in the front yard with his two kids and he sees the detectives and he says, do we have to do this here? And he's not confused while they're there, and then the wife comes out, so like, wash up for dinner and the wife asks no question and is like, dear friends, want to stay. I have extra lamb. Also I noticed the Volvo station wagon and the driveway.

Hello.

So he kisses his wife's hard and says I love you, and she's left in the yard and he willingly, without any confusion, heads out with the detectives. So now we're in an interrogation. The room looks extra giant, and it's Rollin's Benson and the vest guy, and he says what happens now? And Rollins is like, so you're not denying it, and he just like screams I killed him.

And it's like why, bitch, tell us why? And he says, you think I'm gay and she says I don't really care, and he says, well, I'm not.

I have a wife and two kids. I saw a leaflet of her on the subway and she told me her name was Tammy. Three weeks ago picked her up for sex off Twelfth Street, and then she had a little trouble on zipping my pants or whatever. So he gives details of like their interaction and so he bought sex from this person who said their name was Tammy. And then all of a sudden, he's on the subway and he sees a leaflet for the book, and it's like, what the fuck?

I was lied to? But how did he know from the leaflet that she was a boy?

Maybe because of the book, maybe there was like maybe I don't know, maybe he went randomly to the reading.

I don't know, or maybe he knew he was a boy the whole time. Maybe the same thing is what spiraled him.

I mean, obviously he like doesn't want to be guy, so I wrote, I hope you rotten jail for life, you animal. I'm done with him, But it blacks out on the screen and then we open back up on a super close up shot of donuts. But also, wow, that was a confession, Like what's going to happen next? You know, we're only a few minutes in, so it's like a red herring, but they did it, so I don't even know what that's called.

I'm a misdirect.

So anyways, Criesy is standing over the donuts and Benson's coming towards him, like just pick one, and he says, what's the point and she's like, maybe you're hungry. What do you call the fucking weirdo? And they turn the convo to the case. The best guy is with Stone right now and he's probably gonna plead to man one without the hate crime charge, and Creasey's confused, like Bobby has so much money from the book, why would he

Bears?

So Cresey's like if Walter is driving down Twelfth Street constantly making sure that Bobby isn't there, But this killer nutjob was able to find Bobby, bam so easy like that, like this is shady. So now they head to Walter and Walter's like, you found the guy. That's great, and he seems really happy that the killer is caught and he's down to testify, and Caresee's like, slow down, we actually have to clarify one thing. You told me you

What's up. So Walter flips super fast.

He's like, okay, I've never met Bobby, and they're like okay, So who was doing the reading? And he goes, well, Teddy aka Tammy or whatever the hell he was calling himself that week. So Careesy keeps at it, and this whole thing is a scam. Walter says, no, no, no, no, Bobby is real. But the secrecy thing was his idea and it worked great until we sold the rights to

Seen anyone take anything in.

And she says, but it's New York, and I feel like people are allowed to be weird.

Okay, cool, mom. I figure it's New York. People are allowed to be weird. I love that.

So then Finn makes the call and says, we're gonna need a team and a warrant. So they jimmy the lock and a whole team enters this castle and it's dusty, vampire vibes, and they start yelling Bobby, Bobby o'roorke, and they think whoever lives here might be keeping Bobby prisoner. So they're looking around this whole dark ass house with flashlights and there's moving like they're moving around. There's a lot of sliding doors, and the set designer deserves an Emmy.

So then Wala Shawn is like, what the hell did you do this time? He did it?

Arrest his sorry ass. And Bobby died in seventy five, not seventy two, And then they start fighting and they are brothers and they refuse to be in the same car.

With him.

Like, so they're like, you can take us, but I'm not sharing a fucking car with this guy. He voted for Gerald Ford. I'm not going to ride with him. You ride with him, I'm not going And so they're like, it's like a vaudeville act. These guys are looney tunes. So jud is with Rollins and Benson. He doesn't know about this writer and they're like, we trace the IP to you, and he doesn't even know what IP is.

Wala.

Shawn is in with Finn, like wait, the computers can tell you where they are, very Jumanji.

And Finn is like, honey, I hear you.

He then uses a bad word but adds a Jewish flair to it, so I don't I'm not going to say it, but you know, not a fun word, but it does sound fun in Yiddish.

So then he's like, don't you know.

Finn's like, hey, don't say that, and he goes, what it's a word? Who cares? And Finn says, well, it hurts people. And then these men are so annoying. This is I think the reason I hate this episode. So he calls his brother a son of a bitch. Okay, I'm back on board. And then he calls him a schmuck.

Love that.

Then the other brother is like, he's a bum, he would hurt him. What do you think he did to Charise? And they're like, who is Charisse? And then there's a bad word for black people with some Jewish flair, some Yiddish and everyone's like, you can't say that, and he's like, ah, you guys are so annoying. So the parents owned the house and their dad died in sixty nine and the mom in seventy three, and they were good parents and then so then jud hasn't actually even left the house

What is it?

The mutually exclusive what's that thing from Yellow Jackets? Mutually assured destruction? Oh yeah, yeah, that's this where it's like their lives are a mess, but they would rather both be a mess than one of them get to be in this gorgeous house, right, and it's also a hoarding house. I don't know if I was clear about that. I mean, I said vampires and dust, but it's.

No horn stacks of shit like major hoarding vibes.

Yeah, major.

So we're back to jud and Scharis came in twice a week and made terrible soup, but Wallace thought she was stealing because he would put quarters all over the house and then when there was one missing, he was like, she's stealing. So they fired her in nineteen seventy five, and Wallace is like, if anything happened to this.

Boy, it was Joe.

So I'm sure this this while back and forth is it's lasting forever. And so we go to Kari a while, and so we go back to Krezy, who's flashlight deep in searching the house and there's little little peeks of sunlight and really pretty stained glass but mostly a mess.

And then fuck, man down, Man down.

A giant bookshelf with tons of books falls on Creasy and he's like, get this thing off of me, and what if he was alone? Like that is so fucking scary, And it was a booby trap, so something's back there. So he stepped on something, the shelf fell on him, and holy shit, what's back there being protected by this booby trap is a laptop with a copy of Bobby's.

Book done done, done, done.

And so then the next book is actually a document on the computer, so we know for a fact that Bobby was there and was writing. We have like a sequel being written as it's happening.

So but also I want to say that the guy who helps take the bookshelf off of Caraesy is Montero, who is Eddie Hargatea, who is Marishka's brother, who has been recurring on a couple of episodes. Oh wow, he's always just this officer named Montero that they all know and like he's always in like one scene or whatever.

So Benson's at the pre sinked on the cell phone getting scooped, and Creasy's calling from outside the house saying that the document was updated two days ago. So they're like, keep searching, Bobby might be hiding in there. So there's five floors in this house.

It's huge.

Now we're back to Wala Shan, who lets Finn know that he wants a corn beef sandwich from Carnegie Delli. And then Finn is like that place closed two years ago, which is a news to me.

And now I'm sad I loved that place because like.

You would order one thing and they would give you a pickles, a piece of haala, a dip of this, like they it's just they would give you so many foods for one omelet.

Yeah, and wala.

Shawn is so funny and says, nobody told me about the Shiva. And our lady walks in and says, you're coming with me and he says, oh nice, We're going home and they're like, not quite, dude, let's go. So they're putting the brothers together and it's Judd and Wallace with Benson and Rollins and they're like, we know Bobby

You understand that.

And they both sit down silent, and they finally realize that they're in trouble. Maybe Kreese is still searching. Why aren't they wearing hazmats? This is like so dangerous, ye, So then Cares finds, uh oh, a deep freezer with a lock. Not a good sign, never a good sign, and it was covered in blankets and Finn Knock knock comes in and they get lab results back and the DNA on the manuscript matches blood on floors and the laptop. So we're going to search your house f top to

You never do.

I always have to think about the future. And she says, wait a minute. If you haven't left the house since nineteen seventy three, how is it that you got a computer to write on good detective work. Jud again confuses like, whoa, you have a computer? I love this and Wallace's pissed. No, I used hyroglyphics and says focus. So Wallace explains that he gave Carlos, the boy that delivers from the Delhi, one hundred dollars to buy it and set it up for him.

So then tell us about the blood.

He says, he cut himself when trying to carry his mother's sewing machine into the basement and stepped on a piece of broken glass. Why do you think Bobby never showed his face? The truth is, we didn't kill Bobby or Rourke. You people did. Back to Careese, Jimmy the freezer lock, it breaks open and inside is frozen food and a body.

Yikestunt done.

So in the freezer there's a dead woman with gray long hair and it's an older lady and she is dead in that freezer. And now we're back from a commercial break. That's obviously done. That's that's an hack break. Have you seen Bernie that movie Jack Glass?

Pieces of It? Yes, I like to watch the whole thing, but yeah.

I love that movie.

Yeah, and you know, like the townspeople are real townspeople.

Yes, we've talked about this on this podcast. Can't stop because you love this movie? Yeah, how you do love it?

So we're back from the commercial break and Benson is wearing thick, black rimmed glasses and reading the book with a pet or hand to make some notes in the margins, and Rollins walks in with a file in hand from the Emmy. The dead body is Rose Edelman, tumors in both lungs and she didn't die from cancer, but from exphyxiation. There's no bruise marks though around her next so they

So she starts reading out loud, and.

The text from the book reads like like do I hate this guy or love him?

And does he love or hate me?

But he wants me enough to let go of his hard earned money and it's in such details, and Benson is like, I've spoken to so many survivors that speak like this, and Rollin's being dense as fuck is like, sure, but this is coming from a seventy three year old hoarder. And Benson responds who has completely rejected society?

So Rollins ding ding ding was he abused?

And Benson's like yeah, and if he was, he deserves some closure. So they go to Rikers on November twenty sixth Now I do need to mention. So November nineteenth, they're starting this in a it's the twenty six Thanksgiving happened.

We didn't even get to see the squad get together. It lives apartment split, a turkey leg fuck.

Maybe it's like a late and Tuesday, but I think that that goes away because Court's on the thirtieth or thirty first, so it's like truly.

Just past Thanksgiving.

Yeah, So they work on it so anyways, Wallace is in an orange jumpsuit and he's telling a white blazer Benson childhood stories about being on the beach with his mom and his mom loved reading books, and he's talking about the waves and the undertow and so sadly these boys were like pushed so far from the shore and then like whatever, they were trying to be saved and they were like getting carried under and then the lifeguard saved him, and then he remembers being faced down on

Like she beat him out to us.

So it's really like the mom that helped save them from this undertow situation. And I'm not really sure why they're telling the story, but Benson says she sounds like an amazing woman, and Wallace makes a face that reminds me of Jeff Ross.

He truly looks like Jeff Ross.

For a second, I think that you're hearing this whole story so that it sets up that these guys didn't like viciously kill their mom.

They were like obsessed with her. You know, Yeah, that's a great idea.

And so he Win says but smiles and is hiding something, but then agrees and says, the eggs always think they're smarter than the chicken. And now I'm not about to confess something that I didn't do, and Benson goes, okay, then what about something your brother did? And he's like, he ain't gonna say shit, sorry, dude. So Rollin's is pregnant in the scene, so of course no one will leave her alone ever, and they're just like, so, where's

You wrote that so you can.

Tell the world what happened and how devastating it was. And he says no, I wrote that book for money, and she says you were ashamed and that's why you didn't use your name. She says, shame isn't done you, and it wasn't your fault. Who did this to you, who hurt you? And then it cuts back to Judd and Rollins and now you know they do these back and forth.

So after school we.

Used to go to this play center and there was a counselor that and he was twenty and Rollins asks if he did anything to his brother and he says, fuck no. What kind of brother would I be if I allowed that? And she says, but he hurt you and he yells, I was only twelve years old. Damn it well kind of a person. He says that there was a guy called Vincent and he was always around and first time was in the locker room when nobody else was there, and he said, this is what big

Did they get molested by separate guys? No, Oh, it was the same guy. I thought he gave a different name. No, I think it's the same guy. I mean, we'll see, but I think it's the same one.

Yeah.

So Benson and Stone do a walk and talk in front of stained glass that says justice behind them, and she says, Peter, they were both abused, and he says okay, and conveniently they didn't say anything about it till they were charged. She says, I believe them, and he's like, well, I'll do my best to get it excluded from the trial.

They're pretty ashamed of what happened. They won't even admit it to each other.

And he's like, great, then that's settled, perfect, And she's begging for him to cut them a deal, and it's like the mom was sick and in pain, just please, and he's like, listen, I already made a deal with the attorney. Okay, one year jail, ten years probation, and that takes Olivia by surprise. She's like, well that's generous, and he goes, yeah, they turned it down. She says they're sympathetic defendants and he's like yeah until the jury. Here is they kept their mom on ice in the basement.

Yeah, yeah, No one even brings in leftovers.

Yeah, nobody complained about working. So we got defense attorney Evan Brawn. He's in eight episodes of SCVU and he's played by Michael Kostra and classic evil guy face. You know, it must be sad, so like this is an actor. My mom would be like, I don't like him.

He's bad. You know.

She doesn't like Christopher Walking, like anyone that ever plays anyone bad to her, it's like, get them away.

Oh not Christopher Walking. I don't know. I was thinking Willem Dafoe. Do they look similar? No they don't, but they're both creepy looking kind of you don't think they look similar at all. Christopher Walking and Willem Defoe. I don't. Okay, we'll do a poll. We'll do a poll.

Casey, will you do a note so we post this, ha ha, We're going to do a poll. So he's addressing the jury in a beautiful shot of television, I would say. He says, this is a case about love, about two sons who just love their mom too much. And since I love the way that this was shot, I looked up the director and he's done thirty four episodes of SVO and every other Dick Wolf show, so he's really been working and incredible, and I didn't even write his name down.

Helloa.

He says it always struck him at as odd that the law says that a mother must take care of their kids, so you would think there would be a law that says kids should take care of her when she is old and sick. And he says, Rose got very sick and we've only had six months to live, and then she died. And mister Stone will say that they that these two loving sons murdered her, but they're two sons who cooked for her, bathed her and made sure she took her meds, two boys that love their

Because I want to be cremated, and I don't think that's like a mean thing to do to a body.

I definitely think this is Holocaust vibes and it's a crazy thing to do to a body.

I want.

That's what I want to happen to me. I don't want to like rot for years in the ground. Sorry, that's not for me. No, that's totally fine.

But you can't say that burning a body is like chill. It's all. It's just like what we've accepted. But did you watch Midsommer? Really? You did it? I had Jared explain it to me ruined style.

So yeah, like a Midsommer they make the old guys like jump off a cliff to their deaths and like we think that's fucked right, Like I didn't want to.

I didn't like watching that.

So so I feel if a different society that didn't burn their dead loved ones.

Would also be like, this is fucked. Why what do you think is the thing to do with dead people?

I don't know, Throw me at sea. I want to go to the bottom of the ocean.

Jesus. You know, it's hard to make a body sink. They're gonna have to really weigh you down. It's a lot of work. Well no, because when oh yeah, cause I'm not breathing.

Yeah, sosh, these bodies woat back up.

That's why Dexter always chopped them up into like bags and like weighed them down and then they all got found in the end.

Anyway, but they do burials at sea, no.

I mean Viking burials was like you put them out at sea and then you set them on fire. So it's combining Joe two of these things.

I don't know.

Oh my god, Okay, so whatever, there's a holocaust undertone and then and then he's like and then put it in a little jar. And at this point Judd is like putting his fists in his mouth, like he is not happy. And Joe and Ben loved their mother, so much. They kept her as she was where she wanted to be, in her home and if you ask me, that's love. And the jury's thinking they're taking it in, and he smiles. He knows he did a very good job in his

Look what you did, you schmuck.

Stone is behind this very private, intense moment, listening in to these brothers and like, can you just give him some space. Benson walks up to Stone and Stone fills her in that Judd Hirsh did have a massive coronary and again there's very sexy blue light on them. So this is like a nightclub hot that was wild blue lighting. Yeah, for a hospital that I noticed that. I was like, what's happening. Wallace just keeps crying and saying stupid, stupid, stupid,

Of my head.

Retreat or resistance was futile, So I just reminded myself to breathe in and out. And Benson's in the doorway listening to the family's most sensitive moment, and she's so sad. They're all sad, and under the neon blue nightclub light, it pans out slowly and that's dick Wolf baby.

Yeah, a real nightclub situation going on at that hospital.

I mean, you know, this episode is wild.

It's like sad and weird, and like it's also kind of weird that like Wallace Shawn's character, Like when they first brought you guys in, why didn't you just say, Hey, what's up? There's no Bobby, I'm Bobby. You were trying to pin the murder of an invisible person on your brother. I don't think you hate your brother that much. Like it was so weird, But this is based on like three different real life things. So let's go to our little messages and we'll be right back.

Okay, we're back.

So there's three little sections of the crime portion of this. I'll try to get through everything. So obviously Bobby's murder could be based on any number of murders of like innocent trans women. There is an epidemic of violence against Trump people, and it does seem though like that this timing wise is based off the murder of Angie Zapata, who was a trans woman killed in two thousand and eight in Colorado. Not based on timing, sorry, because it was ten years earlier, but just based on I'll get

It was very clearly a hate crime.

His lawyer tried to use this like victim blaming strategy to excuse his behavior, like because you know, she kept it secret that she was trans and then he reacted.

But he admitted to the crime on draw.

Admitted to the crime and referred to Angie several times as it in interviews, and he was thankfully convicted of first dream murder, hate crimes, aggravated motor vehicle theft and identity theft and got life in prison without the possibility of pearl. So luckily he is a monster and he is in jail forever. But this was a landmark case because it was the first one in the US to get a conviction for a hate crime involving a transgender victim.

Were just able to be like, oh, I guess I'm attracted to trans women and then living their lives. It's like so fucking annoying. Yeah, worse than annoying.

No, it's horrific, Like this guy like beat her like with a fire extinguisher, Like it was a really horrific way to die. And it's just there's some resources that are in our show notes about Angie that you can check out as well. And the whole idea of the Bobby character being an actor paid to portray an author is based on the J. T. Leroy literary hoax. Now I had never heard of this. Jeremiah Terminator le Roi

And it was Jeremiah Terminator Larroi known as JT. Leroy. But it turned out that J. T.

Leroy was a persona created by another writer named Laura Albert in the nineties. Okay, le Roi quote unquote wrote three fictional books and they were obviously written by Laura, but then she pretended to be JT. Over the phone and an email with people. So after the first book came out, I believe it was called Sarah, it was optioned for movie stuff. Then people wanted to see who is J. T.

Lowrey.

They needed a face, right, so she got her sister in law, her husband's sister, Savannah Noop, started to appear in public as the writer JT. Leroy wearing sunglasses and a wig, and I'll tell you what people loved. J. T.

Leroy.

He was credited in liner notes and biographies for musicians like Billy Corgan, Liz Fair, Brian Adams, Marilyn Manson, Nancy Sinatra, Courtney Love and more. He corresponded with Madonna over email. He called Carrie Fisher for a personal friend and like I said, he had a movie deal in place and Gus Van Sant was supposed to direct it, the movie of the book.

Sarah, I read the Marilyn Manson book. Oh yeah, that's interesting. Of all the books, well.

You know, rocker and sports things are usually interesting.

But it was fucked.

He like talked about his grandfather having krusty dildos, and like, I just remember in the book there was photos of girls at his concerts that like cut Marilyn Manson's name with blood chests and stuff. Oh no, so I think I was at the Like I remember reading The Red Hot Anthony Keitha's book.

I think I just liked reading about memoirs.

Drugs. Yeah, no, like drugs, bad stuff, sex. Right, did you read go ask Galis? Yes, you know that's not real? Yes, Okay, yeah, I don't know.

I just found that out with like this article that came out about how that was like a Mormon like propaganda or something.

Yeah, but we should have known because it was too intense, Like it was like, this is not real.

I mean, we do no intense things happen to people. But yeah, that book.

Was like the the secret book to read in school, like check it out, but like it was like so scandalous to read it.

I remember that. So in two thousand.

And five, finally JT was exposed as being Laura. A couple of reporters like basically wrote big stories about it and were like, this is not this person doesn't exist, it's this woman. And she later said that she used the persona of JT as quote unquote a veil to protect herself and from her own past about like evolving sex work and violence. And she said it was like a survival mechanism. And she did tell interview magazine quote, you know, JT. Leroy does not exist, but he lives.

So I don't know what's going on, but she.

Did lose the movie deal because they said it was fraudulent, so the movie never got made. And in two thousand and eight, Savannah Noop, which I'm obsessed with this last name, it's Knop Noop. Savannah Noop published a memoir called Girl Boy Girl, How I Became J. T Leroy about the six years she spent impersonating jt Leroy. There was a movie called jt Leroy where Laura Dern played Laura Albert and Kristin Stewart played Savannah and it came out in

Do you remember that guy who went on Oprah and lied like yeah million little pieces.

Yeah that was huge too, another literary hoax.

So now the Edelman Brothers are based on a very famous set of brothers. I did not know about these people, but they're called the Collier Others. Their names were Homer and Langley, two very eccentric brothers who lived together basically as hermits in Harlem and were like og horders, like just like this episode. Their brownstone was at two zero seven eight Fifth Avenue, which is at Fifth Avenue and twenty eighth Street, and was filled with like books, furniture, musical instruments.

They found fourteen.

Pianos when they finally went in there, like just tons and tons of crap, just like what they show in the episode. They also set up booby traps, like I assumed in the episode that Carriesie just kind of like fell against a bookshelf or something just fell over on him, that these are actually booby traps that these guys set to stop anyone who broke in, intruders, invaders, anything like that. So it's it's a wild, a wild story, these these two guys. So to give a little bit of their background,

They still went out.

At this point, they had started to slightly withdraw due to the changing demographics of the neighborhood. I eat, black people moving in. The Harlem started to become like a black community, and so these guys were low key racists,

And then they became sort.

Of like NYC folklore, And so people would hear about these eccentric brothers and they would come and gawk at them, like people would stand around the house and try to get a look, and that made the brothers become even more paranoid, Like kids would throw rocks through their windows, so then they'd board up their windows. People tried to rob them, so then they set up all these booby traps.

Was this New York Times article.

Eventually, in nineteen thirty seven, their phone was disconnected and in nineteen thirty eighth or electricity and water was cut off, so they heeded their house with a kerosee heater. Langley would go get their water from a pump in a nearby park, and since he was an engineer, Langley Jerry rigged a Model t Ford to be their generator for electricity. So these guys are like running a car inside their house to make electricity.

Like it's truly wild. Pre isn't that bad like exhaust fumes indoors? Sure?

Yeah, of course, I'm sure it was like horrible, especially because like exhaust fumes with on a Model t Ford are probably worse than they are now where there's like, you know, different filters and shit. But they lived like this for almost a decade. Like they lived like this throughout the end of the thirties, halfway into the forties. And then in nineteen forty seven, the police get an anonymous call that there's a dead body in the house.

House because there was so much shit, you know.

So after five hours of like digging through all this stuff, they do find Homer's body. Surrounded by boxes of stuff, stacks of newspaper, all every things, reaches up to the ceiling like it's wild and he has been dead for ten hours. So that's weird because that wouldn't be that wouldn't have a smell yet.

Okay.

His cause of death was starvation and heart disease. So now a lot of people assumed that Langley had called in the tip and then like busted ass out of town. But people got suspicious when he didn't show up to his brother's funeral because they were super close and he would have showed up. So then they go back into the house on April eighth, this is like two weeks later, and they find Langley's body ten feet away from where they found Homer.

He was in a tunnel that he had built. It was one of the.

Booby traps and it was surrounded with rusty bedsprings inside the tunnel, but he had somehow set off the booby trap and he'd been crushed. So he died actually on March ninth. They didn't find his body for a month and so he died. His cause of death was asphyxiation, and his brother couldn't survive without him. He was the one that brought him food and did everything for him. So eleven days after his brother died.

Homer died.

And then so it was actually Langley's body that was the smell and had it had been getting eaten by rats.

And so it was like really gross, but so sad like.

And I wonder if Homer just died thinking that his brother abandoned him or like what he'd like what happened, you know, But these two sad agoraphobic racists were just trapped in their house and surrounded by all their crap. So anyway, a year after they were found, the house was demolished and the property is now a pocket park,

So wait, so when the brother didn't show up to the funeral, it's because he was dead in the house.

Yes, got it.

They thought he had just but they he was ten feet away from where they found the other body, but they just couldn't see him because there's so much crap in the house. So when they finally got them out of the house, I should mention they removed one hundred and forty tons of stuff. So that's eighty thousand pounds, Is that right?

That's yeah, I don't know about mad when they had just imagining how many elephants it would be when I heard so many. When I hear elephants, so do I actually, But yeah, they didn't really commit crimes.

No, but these guys are based on them, but they I think they wanted to do something about these guys, and then they did the dead mom thing because these guys did love their mom, and it does seem like after their mother died is when they sort of descended more into madness. Yeah, but then I think they they needed to have there be some kind of hook to get these guys, you know.

And their names are so old timey. This is such a interesting, wild old timey thing.

Homer and Langley Collier, yeah and so and apparently apparently firemen when they go into houses that are like filled with crap, like hoarderhouses, they say, oh, it's like a Collier mansion. Like it's like a thing that they say. So, these guys went down in history and then they got played. They got played as the Eaedelman brothers by two legends. So that's that, and we've got a great guest and we'll be right back. Okay, guys, I am really pumped

You're gonna love it.

We got to talk to the very talented Michael Kostrof.

All right, Michael, thank you so much for today.

What pleasure.

I'm shocked he're in LA. To be honest, why is that you? Just because of SVU theater? I just assumed you were a New York guy.

I do my best to confuse people about where I live.

Yeah, that's Michael, a local higher anywhere really pretty much.

And also every couple of years, I get itchy and I changed locations just because you know, so, Yeah, I've I've lived both places and I am currently in LA.

But are you a native New Yorker? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you have that vibe and so like as a native new Yorker. We've talked to some other Native new Yorkers on the podcast, like is it always like the dream to get Law and Order? And like so you can perform in your own town and it's like, you know, such a classic.

Oh god, this answer is going to sound so dickish, but I okay, I'm just gonna say it's it's early and I'm not editing because I'm you know, drinking my coffee. I had enough of a TV sort of career going that it wasn't like the big thing to bring that.

Bell because it wasn't your first thing like it is for a lot of people, right.

I was really I'm always just glad to be working. You know, I'm pretty pretty easy to please. And I you know what's been lovely is how many times they've had me back. My wife and I counted recently, it's like like eight or nine episodes, which is amazing. Were like it's like probably four or five. No, they keep having me back. And I love working on the shows. It's a really really great set. It's a great vibe. And I mean, I can't say enough about Mrs Garcite.

Yeah, I mean, you're our ninety ninth guest, I think, and every single person pretty much is like, she's the best person I've ever met in my life. So we're like, maybe maybe one hundred will be like Na not for me, but I don't like her so.

Well. She messes with me because I mean she sort of caught on that she could that she could fuck around with me, and so so there's always something, you know, when she met my wife and step kids, she said, I'm so sorry, oh my god, you must have gone. Or she's just very fair. But yeah, so that's why, very very much too long winded answer to your first question, which is, no, it wasn't like I gotta ring that bell. It was you know, it was just a great job.

Yeah, just a great job, which is nice in itself.

Yeah.

Well, I was just gonna say they had you on the first episode is Russian Brides in twenty eleven, where you're kind of like a tax attorney doing a friend of favor and then suddenly they bring you back three years later and you become one of the most most like notorious, like smarmy das that we have in the later seasons, like yeah, we we have like a bunch

They did it.

They're trying to get off, and you feel like you're like the next in that pantheon of guys.

Oh yeah, they only bring me on to defend terrible people.

Yeah, but like it's just funny because I was looking at Yeah, I was watching Russian Brides, I go, he was like an nice guy in the first one.

It was a different character, different name. It's the only show where they do that.

Oh they have it in IMDb. Is Evan Maybe that's a mistake.

Lies, Oh it's a lie. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I had a different name. I'm almost positive. It's the only show where they where they that I know of, where they'll bring somebody back as a different character.

Well, well, then somebody needs to edit the wikiped the Law and Order fandom because Evan Brawn's bio it says he starts as a tax attorney and then it comes.

You know what, they are probably more right than I am. I think there's a better chance that they know better than I do because I don't. I don't track.

Yeah, but we get off on finding mistakes and things. So we also got kind of I just got it excited. I was like, yes, we could tell them that they.

Want, I mean, we should. I don't know how to look that up exactly.

I know, I don't know how to figure it out unless we go about we can watch the episode.

See if they say your name, you go.

Watch the episode. Yeah. But but yeah, I was very very nice and completely inapt. And then I think probably somebody watched the wire and went, hey, bring him back, got it? Yeah?

Yeah? Johnny D? Was he so tall? I don't know that.

Super tall? Super tall? Yeah?

Yeah, Johnny D.

The guy that that is Benson's child's biological father and a sex trafficking murderer.

Well, and that's the only way I get any work. Yeah, I mean, either somebody's trying to convert somebody through rape or bury their mother in a freezer or something. You know, it's like one of those things has to happen.

Well, and you have to have a little bit of money. Evan Brown doesn't come cheap, right o. Yeah, he's he's either on retainer or.

He's got a hefty But how did these hoarders afford him?

That's wild. Maybe they have that's interesting.

Good question, And maybe the case was just sick enough that I did at Pro Bowl. I don't know. This is a wonderful thing about being an actor. I don't have to know a damn thing. I don't know anything. Tell me what to say and where to stand, and I do it. And I it a million years ago when I was on West Wing and my character was talking about some particular feature of the US Code, and I said to the writer. The writer was very sweet and he was befriending me. I said, I never knew

Oh my god, I said.

Unfortunately, people do trust law in order for facts about the law and order system.

Of course they do. I had a lawyer friend, and I used to call her to work on my wirescripts, and she'd go, you can't say that in court.

So it's yeah, it's that's so funny.

It's entertainment, friends, It really is yeah.

We have a lot of lawyer listeners that are like, yeah, this would never happen, like prosecutors don't go to the crime scene, like you know, stuff like that. So so this episode you got to do like your part is you know, you're defending these two Alta conkers. I guess it is the name of the episode, and that's yeah,

We should make it. We just talk about it, but we should make it.

Yeah, but it is.

It was beautifully written and it was just such a beautiful scene, and it was, yeah, we loved watching your opening arguments.

In this you had me. I was like, let them go. They didn't do anything.

I loved the gall of standing in front of a jury and saying, yes, they put their mother in a freezer and that's love. Somehow and somehow, somehow, and I said to the director, I said, I don't want to pace back and forth. I just want to stand there and say this with a straight face, and it's like it's insane, insane argument, but it's yeah, so so beautifully written. It's like they just wanted to be close to her.

Yeah.

I mean I was arguing it with Lisa when we recorded the episode of the podcast. I was like, you know, I don't want to be buried, and I guess some people have a problem with cremation. So you know, if you've got a freezer, if you've got a deep freeze and you've got the real estate for it in New York, I mean, why not.

Very strange, very strange world.

Can you tell us about any other like memorable moments you've had on the set or in the courtroom scenes or anything.

Most of my memorable moments have to do with interactions with Muska and her just messing with me and I can let's see tell us. I'm told she's done this to other people where right after they say rolling sound speed, she'll look at you and go, let's have an acting contest. What are you even talking? I don't know what you're talking about. Time every time it's it's something else. And I came on the set and she said, Michael, are you signing up for my seminar. I'm like, what's semina?

Yeah.

I feel like if you're going to be like the number one on a show for twenty four seasons.

You got to keep it fun, and it sounds like she does that.

I meant, at the risk of sounding like I'm in a cult, I have to say that. You know, she jokes around like that, she keeps things light, and then when it comes time to do the work, after all these years, she is not phoning it in. She's doing the work. She's really and sorry if I'm gushy about this, but you know it's not. It's not true on every set, and I've take take a side less experienced actors and really make them comfortable and really say, so, what do

You know, Oh gotcha?

Was there any singing we heard Raoul likes to maybe sing sometimes.

Well, Rowl and I are both musical theater guys.

Yes, I saw you're a big Broadway guy.

Yeah, and so I think we uh, I don't think. I don't think we ever sang together, but I'm sure we compared notes. You know, we musical theater people get into conversations like who was who was the best? Mama Rose, you're completely wrong, and you know we'll break out knives and fisticuffs and everything. I mean, you know, we get very intense about it. But we became we became friendly. We hung out a couple of times, and I like him very much. I like him. He's a he's a

So it's a stage it's a handbook for people who are working on the stage or is it for like actors when they transition into television and movies and stuff.

Or no, it's it's for for working and aspiring theater.

Professional theater actors.

I have a whole you know, there's a whole culture back there there there we have we have just traditions and protocols and expressions and superstitions and ways of doing things. And it's funny because like theater people, we take our superstitions seriously, whether we believe in them or not. Like you know, people will freak out if you do the wrong thing because it's like you're not supposed to be even if we don't believe in it, it's part of the fun of the tradition of the culture. So uh yeah,

Amazing.

So the Stage Actor's Handbook it's called by Michael Kostrov.

Okay, we're gonna.

Make the I guess biggest mistake you've seen was there like a moment that inspired you or like, were you ever in a production and you saw something You're like, what the fuck?

So many I mean, there's so many things. I mean, you know what happens is you learn most of the stuff by screwing up. You know, like once the director leaves, the stage manager is authorized to give you notes throughout the run of the performance. And I very grandly said, well, I only take notes from the director, and somebody pulled me assignment. No, no, that's not a thing. I think. One of my favorite traditions is something we call TTFN,

But I do think it's it's awesome that you wrote that book, because I think that in a lot of ways, in not just theater, but in other creative pursuits or other industries, everyone's just like, just get out there, make your mistakes and learn, and like, no one wants to tell you the little secrets. No one wants to tell you the backstage, and it's not like these people are going to read your book and be like, no, I'm a perfectly professional actor. But like, you know, it's nice

They want everyone to let learn it.

Because we do stand up comedy and so yeah, like you're supposed to move the MIC's stand right behind you, and so when you see someone with the MIC's stand out moved, you immediately know that they're like younger because it's distracting and you got to do it. It's something little and yeah you should tell people that, but kind to learn it.

So there's all this little stuff.

We have on set protocols. Also, I was working the other day and I saw a guest actress ask the one of the leads to take a picture with her. It's like, yeah, nope, amateur move. You don't do that. It's not cool, you know.

But I social media now though, well, I feel Marishka does.

I feel like a lot of the people.

Think probably does. She's very gracious about it. But you know, my feeling as a guest actor is this, I want to help protect the bubble, meaning meaning the leads are at work. They don't want to have to be on celebrity duty. You know, they don't want to deal with you being like, oh my god, it's such an honor to meet you. It's like, you know, I like when

Yeah, because we've also talked to a lot of childs after there are people who did it when they were kids and their parents want to meet Marishka. So like the dads are like, we got to meet Marsha.

Well, you were in the producers And what what are your favorite Broadway shows?

Oh my god, it's so hard to answer that there, I know.

That's so crazy. It's like, what's your favorite comedian?

I also we also like to ask, like, what role are you so yeah to do?

Dream role Broadway?

I mean, the top of the list is Sweeney Todd. I think that's one of the best musicals ever. I love I love the obscure ones that people don't know about that are great. There's a great musical called Triumph of Love. That's one of my favorites. I love Evita. I love I mean different ones for different reasons. You know. Some of them are just just fun and silly.

My husband loves the musical Assassins. Do you know that one?

I don't know it as well as I should because I love Stephen Sondheim.

He loves Assassins. Oh my god.

I love Pacific Overtores, which nobody really talks about much, you know, all Asian casts written by Sondheim. It's brilliant. So anyway, you know, I'm nerding out here, but dream rolls. I you know. I always say that what I love best about my career is the variety. So the fact that I get to keep doing different things is it's more prominent than any particular dream role. I will say that I did two of the ones that were on

I would have loved to see that. Wow, that's fair.

It was really it was really really pretty cool. I mean, you know, once you get past yeah, man in Address is always going to be funny, but there's also some deep stuff in there, you know, in Hairspray, stuff about race, stuff about body image. It's a it's a really good good show.

So yeah, for sure.

Well, and you mentioned in Law and Order people get to come back all the time, and we do love Evan Brawn evil da Would you ever want to come back as like a killer?

Oh? Interesting? I think if I were, If I could come back on Law and Order on SVU as a different character, I'd want to be like the kindest, most lovely person ever. Because it's so rare that I get to play anyone with a soul, Because you know, it's not just law and order. I mostly play these ice cold attorneys. That's like my bread and butter. So it's really cool when I get to do something different and people who know me laugh because I mean, I'm a puppy dog.

I'm like, yeah, that's it.

When we interviewed Delaney Williams, the same thing, we were like, your face comes on screen and people like get mad immediately, and he was the nicest man to talk to and such a sweetheart. And I'm sure that's true of like everybody that plays these kind of blindballs.

I think so. And also like Mike, I'm a musical comedy guy, Like I'm the funny guy who sings a song and I'll see at the curtain call. But you know, so, it's one of the great things about being an actor is like you don't know where it's going to take you. You don't know how people are going to want to cast you. And I love that I get to put on this mask and people buy it, Like you know, wire fans will come up to me with a huge smile and say, I hate you so much. Oh yeah,

Please.

So I'm walking along, you know, my Upper West Side neighborhood, and this woman from con from Connad, you know, the power company.

She says hey, I said hey. She goes, you're the lawyer from the wire. I said, yes, yes I am. And she goes, oh, wow, are you really a lawyer. I said no, no, just an actor. And she says, oh damn, I really need a lawyer. And that was the end of that conversation.

She thought she really lucked into some free legal advice on the street.

Wait and are you Are you always teaching acting classes? And is it independent or with a place?

It's independent. I do two of them online and one of them in person in LA and it's a it's a it's a tight list, you know. It's it's not not snotty, but just just sort of like, yes, which we're professional actors, but I love doing it. It's it's it's I just love actors, you know, like it's a it's a joy to work with them. So it's you know, whether it's coaching, directing, teaching acting, all that stuff, it's

Yeah, well, let me ask you this because I paid for coaching one time, and this just happened to me yesterday. Actually too, I paid for coaching one time and I did this whole session and then I go in and what they tell me in the audition is like the opposite of what this coach has told me.

Like it's the opposite.

They're like, you know, you want to play it this way, blah blah, and I'm like okay, and then you just have to like readjust on the fly to everything you just paid someone to help you work on. It's like so like yesterday I read an audition to my husband and he goes, well, this is Disney, so I think you got to kind of play it like like pretty like uh, you know, like over the top a little bit. And then I get on the audition and she goes, I know it's Disney, but it's like not over the top.

It's very ground.

And I was like, everybody I asked to help me tells me the wrong thing.

Well, okay, so I'll say this. I don't think coaches should be tasked with being psychic.

Right.

What I try to do with the actor is is some detective work together. What do you think about this? Why do you think? You say this? What do you think is going on? And sort of unpack it together? There is and I've said I can't tell you how many times. Look, if this idea doesn't land with you, I want you to not do it. I want I want to hear back from you if you go, yeah, I don't see it that way, because you're the artist who's doing the work. But also it's it's perfectly possible.

Like I would never think I could do that.

Who who wouldn't respect that?

You know, well that's a power move. Wow, of course.

And it's not you know, it's not snotty, it's not you know, but you know, and if you have a cast in director says no, just do it, it's like, you know, I'm going to step out because it's it's it's I want to really make sure that I hit what you asked me to do in a respectful, nice way. But we don't take up any space, you know, and

Yeah, but you got I'm sure throughout your experience. I hate mean casting directors. Oh yeah, there's like these incredible ones and I love them so much, and then there's somewhere I'm like, can you make me feel more like shit?

Listen. I'm very big on the dignity of actors, and I believe in something I call gracious strength. This is what I came up with after working with a bunch of famous actors. I'm like, what is it about them? You wouldn't fuck with them? And also they're the nicest people in the world. Gracious strength, or my version of that, is what would Judy Dench do? So I feel like if Judy Dench had a really nasty casting director, she said, you know, I really don't let people speak to me

I love that ww jd D. What would Judy Dench do?

Try it? Try it? What would Judy Dench. Do I think I think she would be really nice about it? She says, I'm getting some hostility, but I'm interested in your note. What explained I me, I have to understand the note.

You're like teaching power moves and acting.

I know I had to because I come from such a damage, fucked up childhood. This has been like a lifetime of therapy. But it's like it's I have to protect all that stuff because otherwise I'd be like I'll be on you know, sleeping under my couch for a week, you know, drinking and crying.

Well, do you have anything like coming up that you want our listeners to check out something that's coming out soon? Or I'm sure they're going to have you back on SVU soon they will.

I mean, you know, I'm not much of a promoter. It's like people find me or they don't. But I mean, I just filmed an NCIS where I was not a lawyer. It was very exciting. I loved the role. I don't know when. It's on November thirteenth, eleventh, seventeenth, someplace in mid November, so that's on. You know, I'm big into my book right now, so if they're you know, aspiring or working professional stage actors out there. Yeah, the Stage Actor's Handbook. You can get it Drama Bookshop in New York.

I got stuff, amazing, amazing, booked and blessed, as we.

Say, yes, booked and blessed, obsessed.

Yeah, he's cool like you are immediately like I'm getting on the list and going to take his actings.

Yeah, it's just like, you know, we get to talk to a lot of people who love their work and it's a privilege. Yeah, and it's cool sen someone that you know likes to sing and wants to help other people and advice and cares for shit like I like it.

Yes. Yeah.

Theater traditions are funny. I've remember from high school it was just like so much, thank you, thank.

You, yeah, thank you five. And I still do it all the.

Time, and I wonder if people are like, shut up, you dumb bitch, but they really ingrained that well.

The superstitions are so funny too, because you have so many superstitions as a Russian Jew, like I have never heard of like your superstitions and.

I'm a very superstitious person, and I do, and I yeah, yeah, I'm in tune with that part of I was gonna say my universe.

Yeah, but then I was like.

Or psychosis, like we don't really know, we don't know exactly what it is. But you know, I've had like kind of a peeing problem m where I'm constantly being NonStop, like I can't stop being. I've really like been harnessing energy to stop that, and I've really been able to like not have to pee constantly.

And it's cool.

Yeah, now I have to pee now immediately now, as soon as you say it. Yeah, but on the fly, Like I usually I pee six to ten times for across country flight and this time only twice. And I was like, look at me, Oh my god. Did I ever tell you I flew to Hong Kong once and never peene. Yeah, it's kind of rude and bragging at this point. I'm telling you my struggles that like me having a pe has ruined in my life. I think

Anyway, what did we learn?

Don't be a fucking hoarder. Don't put dead bodies in the fridge. You know, I don't know what to tell you.

I don't know. The postmortem on this episode is a little bit weird. I have a good one.

Get over grudges, but yeah, I'm in a fight that will never end.

But get don't be in grudges with your siblings too, Like Kathy and Kyle. We are watching everything that's going on with Kathy Hilton and Kyle.

H Richards, the way they punish each other with not being able to go to each other's kids' weddings, it seems so fucked up. Yeah, yeah, I don't like, I don't think Kyle did anything that bad.

And it's like, but here's the thing. I know, we're going into a full tangent about the Housewives right now. Everybody give us two minutes. Everything the Beverly Hills is so hidden. I don't think we like they're not open like a lot of other seasons, Like we don't know what some of this real shit is. Like maybe Kathy's got receipts on Kyle, and I bet fucking kat Kyle has receipts on Kathy. Like I think they've both done

And no one was perfect.

But I don't think it's like they're just so mad that Kyle puts it out there.

I guess, yes, I don't know.

Well, these two brothers, it feels like, I mean, in the real life story, they protected each other till the end, they were like thick as thieves. In this one, I think they wanted to let these two classic actors have a little bit of you know, play off each other a little bit. So instead of them loving each other,

Yeah.

I was just gonna say, and go out for walks, you know what I mean. We can always be reminded you got to take a walk, but.

You can go out the walk.

It's okay to go out for walks and also not bring home like broken baby carriages and like you know, whatever old piano you find on the street, Like you don't have to bring that stuff home. But yeah, hoarding

I mean, like, yes, they they put her, they euthanize their mind essentially. Yeah, yeah, I think there was a willow.

I think, yeah, they euthanized her, but like they like the doctor was like she wouldn't have had much longer.

She was probably in a ton of pain, could barely breathe.

I think they did what they thought was best for their mom and then like leaving her in the freezer, you know, eccentric, but of course also always teaching our kids to say no secrets with adults and shit like that, like what would happen to them two men as when they were younger? You know, no secrets, tell people, Tell your brother.

Jeez, Louise.

Anyway, I'll just segue into what would Sister Peg do? Our weekly segment where we direct you to an organization, a book, an article, something to help you learn a little bit more about what we discussed on today's episode, and I wanted to point you to it's kind of

How not a transition from the sadness. But you know, on we go to another episode and next week we'll be doing Paternity season nine, episode nine. Watch with us. Also, did you know that the new season's not on Hulu? It's only on Peacock now ooh yeah, season twenty four.

He's only at Peacock know Hulu? And interesting?

Thank god I stole my friends my friend Julia's Peacock's I'm there.

But yeah, you also had to.

I watched the first two of the crossover on Hulu and then had to go watch the other one on Peacock, even though I didn't really finish it. Thanks for listening, guys, get tickets for the tour at That's messed Up live dot com. We love you, Bye bye.

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