Alien w/ Amy Pietz

Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

These are our stories.

Done done, Yay.

Hello, Welcome to That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast.

I'm Lisa and I'm Kara, and you guys hopefully know what we do. We talk about an episode of Law and Order SVU, we talk about the true crime it was based on, and then we interview a cool Cat from the episode I'm into jazz now, I say cool.

Cat, my cool cat.

Yeah, you know my friend from my friend from high school who's like very cool. He started a sparkling wine spritzer called cool Cat. This is not a paid advertisement. Oh he sent me some and it's delicious.

I do remember that, but I like that as a term for our guests too. Yeah, having at school.

But speaking of cool, I really want to know what Europe to. I know that you're at your You're in Chicago because you went to your niece's graduation. I just saw on your Instagram that she made a speech.

I had no idea, so she was trying to surprise us.

And then of course, one of her brothers filled the beans like like a day.

Before, you know.

But yeah, so a few people gave speeches. It's not classic. You know, it's a small Jewish school, so there's only forty kids graduating, maybe forty really Yeah.

So Avoctor Troit.

There was like a couple welcome speeches, one in English, one in Hebrew, some other guy I don't know, and then she did the She was the last one to speak, so they all got diplomas and then she was the closing speech. Whoa the closer, the closer, and she truly killed it.

Ben She was like, I was tearing up.

I was like I was teering, like it was such a good speech and it wasn't basic.

I mean, I don't want to judge the other kids.

I some of her classmates do listen to the podcast, so I think I have to watch it when I say, but listen, her speech was incredible. Everyone else was generic. Like one girl was like, you know, I was at it was Israel and it was Golden Hour and I didn't have my phone and that's when I realized I have to be present.

And it's like, okay, bitch, that's like.

Not that's what you decided to go with, Like it was like so basic, like we're such a community.

And then my niece just like nailed it.

She was like, don't be conformist, so you can all reach your full potential and all about individual.

But then she did mention the Holocaust.

And I started laughing because I don't know if we have to talk about the Holocaust, but it was really funny. And then when I told her I laughed. She was like, what what do you mean. I was like, it's just fun that you said. You mentioned the Holocaust to me, But it made sense because you know, she just mentioned that were under attack. My mom just read an article in the AARP about anti Semitism. Because she didn't believe me. I was telling her Florida's whack and she was like,

Was like, wait, okay, I'll take it from AARP. I'll take it from them.

She's like, do people hate the juice?

But it was like lovely. I mean, the rest of it was so boring.

It was really hard to stay alive, like I you know, I don't know how because my other niece, she graduated from a big public school my sister and niece went to her graduation, a thousand graduating care Yeah.

I was gonna say, at least you only had to hear forty names. I mean, I went to what I consider a pretty small and it was two hundred of us per class.

Yeah.

Oh the kid the two kids from the class that were reading the people's names, they deserve a movie, like they should have a ghost World style movie. They were so funny to me, I mean, and then I had to really pee, you know, I pe a lot. And so there was a cameraman and he walked away for a second. So I was like, oh, this is my shot to like walk quickly, and I accidentally blocked the grandmother taping her granddaughter's speech.

Well, she was like, you know, a little video of internet sensation Lisa Traeger now to show everybody.

He was like, I got to be.

And then my sister said she slapped my ass on the way back into the aisle, but I didn't feel it.

So I don't know, but as your your sister slapped your ass or the old lady did the old lady did oo.

But I didn't feel it.

But then we went to a brewery in Skokie, called sketchbook, and we sat outside and ordered Vietnamese food like takeaway.

And had a nice little special day. It was cute.

She I'm proud of her nice and guess what, shout out to her father. So she got some money from her university, but Elan wanted more and wrote like a really nice email and they gave her more money.

My college.

Yes, He's like, listen, she wants to go there. We have other kids going to college this and that, and they're like, here's wow.

And I was, but this is him.

This is totally him because my dad goes can't everyone do that? And it's like, yeah, but not everyone is him?

Yeah you ask, Yeah, you got to ask because when we were what you want, because when we were young, the way we got Oprah tickets was he wrote a letter saying we loved Susan Sarandon and Richard Geartt and that's how we got the tickets. I guess he's always writing these letters. I had no idea he's a letter. He's a campaign letter letter man.

I love that. Yeah, I don't know. It was cute.

And then today she was supposed to join my parents and I for lunch, but she stayed out till three in the morning.

Oh excuse me, party girl.

Maybe she is ready for Trinity after all, but she's a sober Sally. I know, that's what That's the only reason I'm saying. Because Trinity was such a drunk fest for me that I'm like, maybe Tali is not gonna like the drinking part of it.

But she's out till three. She can hang.

Maybe she'll figure it out. Does she ever do a gummy or anything. No, she's very liking into it. It's just sweet. It was wholesome. I keep using that word wholesome.

And in New York I went to Coney Island whole sum Memorial Day weekend, families enjoying themselves. It was like, it's what I want to be in America for everyone of different like everyone looks different, all different families having a good time at the beach and the like on Coney Island. And I've just had like a really wholesome week I guess, Oh, nice.

I'm so happy to hear it. You'll be happy. Oh.

I saw a woman with a bearded dragon and a leash, and you know I love that. Well, on my way to the bathroom, so I get back to the boardwalk bar where me and our friends were at, you know, on Coney and I go up to them and I go, oh my god, I saw a bearded dragon and next to me was a little child getting water.

And he turned to me, he goes, that's my bearded dragon.

So cute, and so he like made his mom come over and then we all got to pet the beard a dragon.

He was like, so cute. Oh that's so sweet. Youah, just wholesome. Waiting in line for Rye.

I mean I was blacked out drunk by that point, but uh it's fun.

Well I'll tell you who I need your brother in law to write a campaign letter to because I'm an a sorry let me guess non story fucking six Flags Great Adventure, six Flags Magic Mountain. If you've been following my thaga of how my phone fell out of my pocket on a roller coaster, my fault, I forgot to zip the pocket, but still I didn't think it would be vortext out by the X two roller coaster. I called multiple times, it was never found. They finally I

Blah blah blah.

Four days later, this past weekend Saturday, I wake up my phone has cause I got a notification from find my iPhone my phone has been turned on. It is in Hong Kong, and I immediately Google my phone is in Hong Kong. The first thing I get is this guy in Reddit being like, my phone was stolen last month in London, and now I'm seeing it's a X address in Hong Kong. My phone was at the same address, so this is clearly like some kind of warehouse of

But I'm just so annoyed because did a six fly.

You do this?

Did six flags? Is this like a like an f like a I don't.

Think it was like a conspiracy it definitely happens, because a lot of people were writing about it online and saying that this has happened, but.

Is it always in six Flags?

Well, a lot of people were saying Magic Mountain specifically, and a bunch of people were saying other six Flags and stuff too. It was kind of hard to find because you have to look up like lost phone, six Flags scam or whatever, because otherwise you just get like a bunch of people saying, I lost my PHONEX, but I think it's employees. I was like, I think you guys need to pay your teens more like I think that the teen's like, I know, my phone was on for thirty six hours, so it did not break in

Of people are like, go to small claims court against six Flags, and I'm like, I don't know if I can afford all that.

I just wonder if it's like you think it's the teens, not a huge conspiracy.

I don't think it's a huge conspiracy because a bunch of people in the reddit were like, I have gotten my phone back from six Flags before.

Maybe shittier phones. I don't know.

I'm not gonna say I had the nicest phone on the planet, but it was a twelve. I had just gotten it a few months earlier, so that sucks.

But also, finally you'll get a new one, Jesus, this one you've been using is finally.

It's a piece of shit. It's my friend's old phone, and it's like it holds a charge for about five minutes. But I also had a wholesome birthday party for Oscar. He got his little Mawana cake, he got his little Mauana balloons. He was over the moon. He was so happy. He got his bounce house. At one point at the end of the party, he was just going around eating pizza and cake wherever he found it, like whoever's piece was just on the ground. He was just hoovering up

But yeah, not real highlights, folks wrote I.

Did like so's the Summerhouse Reunion aired and one of the people on it said, well, I'd rather be nuts than boring to one of the other people.

Lindsay said this to Page.

So I storied it and guess who responded, Lindsey age So Lindsay would Page. I didn't tag her, ID tag Lindsay. She just wrote lol. So that was a huge moment for me.

I love that. I'm team Lindsay.

Well, it's so funny because one of the main accounts I should shout her out, honestly, CC right, I mean, she's given us so much.

All right, I'm gonna look her up. I like that.

I don't even have to scroll. It's the first thing that pops up on my life, so c C I so CC dot loves Dot You is my favorite Bravo account that I've been following.

What flag is? This? Is she in France or Russia? Like, what flag is? I don't know what flag it is.

I know she's from another country because I've heard her talk and she has an accent.

Yeah, so CC is amazing, But she's just mostly been posting vander Palm and it unites people and now you know, the Summerhouse and Jersey reunions and she's like, oh no, she's like vander Pump.

We're all united.

But I've just like I can't handle the the discourse of the Jersey Summerhouse because everyone it's just so volatile and so clearly two teams, you know, yes, because anyone that seems Sandoval is like damaged, you know, unfortunately they had.

A horrible life. It's very clear we're all.

She talked about that because Lisa has of course gotten me to follow this woman Ceci, so I do follow her now as well. And she's like, it's interesting because the scandival, it's like we're all basically on the same team. There's a couple unhinged wackos, but then with Summerhouse, which I don't even watch, but I know what's going on through pure osmosis and through Bravo mem accounts, is fully

Well, the Bravo universe has no like Nuance ever.

But it's just like just because one person is work doesn't mean the other person is innocent of everything. Cause I got into it in the The Girls, like did you not watch Season one? Like no, No, one's saying she's not nuts, but she's right this season. She is correct. Whether you like her or not, what is happening is wrong. So I just think sometimes with Bravo, they're not like Bravo fans are just the stands.

It's like the beehive of it all.

Yeah, people are coming for Page because she said the whole thing about how they got their wedding thing in People magazine and that it must have been premeditated. And then the People Magazine article writer was like, I actually just wrote really fast when I saw that they got engaged.

Like it's just like I love that, like for People Magazine to be like, no, you're wrong, because Page kept also saying like I know how People magazine works, and I love that. The writer got to be like, if you'd like us to explain, Yeah.

He's like, I guess Page doesn't really know how People magazine works. Yeah, my old friend, Page, my old almost cousin, paget.

I forgot someone dated Page, my cousin.

I've met her a couple of times, but a way pre her being on a reality show, for sure. It's just you know, we're all we all watch reality television for entertainment, and Paige and a few of other girls on the season are very boring. They don't do anything, they don't fight, and then they come alive at the reunion.

It's like where was this energy? Where was it?

I don't watch, but like what I see a lot is like Page in bed with like a bunch of other girls, like and they're always just like lying in bed chatting, and the fact.

Of the matter is like, let's say Lindsay's a bad person or drunk or whatever. Kyle also Trinity University grad, Trinity College. He's the worst of them all and no one cares. It's like, I don't know whatever, I'm not getting into this. This is not Bravo. Let's get it. Yeah, we're starting the pod. We're starting wait, wait.

Really quickly before we keep get going on the pod. Guys, it's uh.

This episode's coming out six thirteen. That means that in two days you can see us in Tempe, Arizona. Baby, you still have time to get tick. We love going there. We had a great time last time. If you came last time, don't be scared to come again. We're doing a different episode. We're gonna have different games. It's gonna be a different show, and I think we have different merch than when we came last time as well. Also on the twenty fifth, we will be in Denver, baby,

And here's news for me.

I'll be doing stand up in Arizona June seventeenth and eighteenth with Anisha from Family Karma. Yes huge, so she'll be opening those shows. So that'll be thrilling. Hopefully we get on and I get some good gossip for all of you. And then June twenty sixth, they'll be doing stand up in Denver. So yeah, so come make it a bang bang.

Come see the pod, come see Liza, and uh yeah, let's get going.

We've got to friends.

Yeah, bring friends, bring drag alongs. You guys know, people love it when they come to our show. Uh, even if they've never listened to the pod. We we convert people one by one at the live shows.

Oh and guess what I used while I packed this trip.

My new keem Chichi Kimchi uh makeup bag that I got at Dragon and it.

Is fighting so good. I'm ex well. I can't wait to see it when we're traveling. It's so much.

It's pink, it's cute, it's perfect. I love everything. Okay, we're starting, all right, guys, we're starting. Don't go anywhere, all right.

We are tackling Alien today, Season seven, episode even.

This is an episode from two thousand and five.

We open on what looks like a gold Ford tourist hauling ass on the streets of New York City, cutting people off, almost hitting people, turning into an emergency room drop off, pushing a body out of the passenger.

Seat, and then taking off.

And the victim who's lying on the ground is an unconscious young boy with a lot of blood on his white button down. Doctors come running, so now in the hospital later, Munch is briefing Benson and Stabler. The kid's name is Sean Hamill and he's a fifth grader at Saint Victor's, so damn he'd be like eleven years old, which is that's wild.

He's got a.

Single stab wound to the back. The er noticed bruising on his chest and buttocks, so they called SVU. The doctor comes up to tell them that Sean is out of surgery and it is surf for dude.

Doctor who we've talked about before.

He's doctor Kyle Beresford, played by Stephen Gregory, who unfortunately has left the business as of his last episode of SVU, which was in twenty eleven. I didn't realize this guy was in eighteen episodes, like he's been in five or six episodes that we've covered.

But he is the surfer guy that we talk about that it doesn't make sense.

He works in a New York City hospital and they're in the hospital room now with Sean and his parents.

Sean has a big bandage on his head. It's a nod and all the.

Way around kind though, it's just a large rectangular bandage. So he doesn't get to be in the special club with Amber Stevens West and Abigail Breslin. So the hospital has obviously not paid their electrical bill because the room is pitch. It's dark, like there's not a light to be seen. I think of hospital rooms as bright fluorescent lights.

Last week.

He came home covered in bruises, and Sean says, no, I was climbing a tree and I fell, and the mom goes, no way, it's a bully, and he's scared to say who. And the kid is like, can I talk later, Let's just let me out of here. I just want to go home, and that's when he realizes he can't move his legs. He starts crying his parents, why can I move my legs? The parents look devastated, and we're at the credits off of a paralyzed fifth

And you're expelled.

Seems very harsh, and the principal heard the tree climbing story, so she's like, I don't even know anything about Sean getting bullied.

He's a dumb ass for climbing a tree.

And then Stabler drops the bomb that Sean was stabbed and is now paralyzed and they need to talk to anyone who had contact with Sean that day, starting with you, father, Justin, and he goes, I didn't see Sean and Live is like, well, that's weird because he was dumped at the er out of your car. Done done, and he's like, that's impossible. My car was in the parking lot all day and father and the Principle's like, no, Father, Justin was in

You are an ARC.

And Benson explains Sean is too scared to reveal who his bully is, and I can see that you're scared too, and he's like, I'm not a wuss, and then he's like, Okay, never mind.

I'll tell you everything.

There's a fat kid who pushes everyone around and he beat the crap out of Sean last week.

His name is Charlie Monahan. Thanks Nark.

So now we're talking to Charlie and his dad, and his dad is very familiar. His name is Adam Lefev. He's been in four episodes of SVU. This is his fourth one. This guy has like one hundred credits on IMDb. He's just in like one episode of every show you've ever seen, kind of and Charlie says Sean was making fun of me. Sean basically said, your girlfriend won't have

Emma is his half sister. It's his they have the same mom.

But the dad is like, oh, it's my ex wife's daughter, So she's been staying with her grandparents since her mom got sick. So now we're at the grandparents' house and they are two very extremely white up at east stuffy looking grandparents, and we find out that Emma's been staying there a couple of days since her mom, Kate had to go back to the hospital because she has lupus.

Have you seen that? I think I saw Jeelie, but not Jersey Yeah, but I feel like I saw both. I confuse those Jersey Girl.

I can like see the cover of it, and I can see like a scene from it, but I don't think I've ever seen it. This girl also was a contestant on the Voice She was I believe chosen by Christina Aguilera or something, but she didn't make it very far. But she's very cute and she has a big Instagram following. I hope her music goes well. She's also wearing a very bad wig for most of this episode, which cannot

Charlie.

Then Live cuts to the chase and is like, did your brother ask you to lie? And she goes, no, lying is a sin. It's a vanilla sin, not the mortal kind. But all sins are bad and you have to never.

Do them no matter what.

Back at the sixteenth Precinct, they're filling in Kragan. They think little cutie Emma is lying her little wig off and they think that Charlie stabbed this kid, dumped him and had his sister Alibi in. Munch pops in with the rimes scene report. The lab got prints off of father Justin's car. They were all over the car, everywhere

So what's going on now?

Benson and Stabler have Charlie and his dad in interrogation, threatening him with jail and if he gets tried as an adult, he'll get twenty years. Security Footage has you at the deli across from the school twenty minutes before Sean was dumped, and Charlie sticking to his story. Benson's like, okay, well, a Dreury is never gonna believe you, and then knock knock. Finn's got something. He did find another pair of scissors in the school dumpster with traces of blood in the blades.

Done. Done. Top of AC two.

We're back at the school and the principal is filling in Benson and Stabler that Emma's not at school that day because she's at the hospital with her mom, and she's like, just as well, and they're like, why is it just as well that she's missing school? And they're like, her situation's complicated. When her mother first enrolled her at Saint Victor, she told them she was a single parent, and she hid the fact that Emma actually has another mom and that Kate is gay.

The mom is gay, and live is like, what's the big deal?

Gay couples raise kids all the time, And the Principal's like, sure, but they don't lie about being gay and enroll their kids in a conservative Catholic school. And they didn't find out until Kate got sick and then the mom's partner started coming to school functions and the other parents freaked out and they didn't want their kids in the same class with the kid of a lesbian.

Oh my god, Like, what fucking year is it? That's so wild.

So it is Catholic school though, So I don't know why any of this is shocking. Oh, let's see, it's like happening in public schools.

Now.

Yeah, a teacher right now is in trouble because she showed a Disney movie with a gay character in it and the teachers are flipping out. So yeah, I think we've gone actually more backwards from this episode.

Yeah, so fucking crazy.

Well, so they basically at this school, they wanted to expel Emma after they found out, but the parent, because the parents were pulling the kids out of the school, donors were withdrawing support and live was like, how about ignoring them? And principal is like, yeah, but how do you teach Catechism with Emma in the classroom? Like homosexuality is the sin kids, But that's okay, Emma, your moms are good people otherwise, So that's a quote from the principal.

I don't know if I've ever met an adult Zoey.

Isn't that funny? My niece is named Zoe's. Well, we had Zoe Lister Jones on our podcast.

Oh that's an adult Zoe. One adult Zoe. I just heard her on another podcast today and she was so funny.

She's into housewives and vander Pump and everything, and she was being really, really funny about it.

No, I say this all the time. I mean, Bravo connects people from coast to coast. It really is a buying a walk all walks of life, but mostly women and gay men.

So she goes Emma had nothing to do with what happened to Sean Hammill, and Benson is like, the kids are covering for each other, Babe, we need to talk to Emma.

And they're like, She's like, well, her mom is dying. Can this wait? And they're like it'll be quick.

Now.

Emma's talking to the detectives saying she didn't do anything. They're like, even if it's an accident, we got to know the truth. Did Sean say something mean to you? She goes he said I was a freak and I was going to go to hell because I have two moms. And Zoe is like, what did we talk about? Six and sticks and stones? And it's like, I think six and stones is kind of outdated now right, we've figured out that like language hurts people very deeply and that we have to deal with that.

Yeah, it's like a boomer saying, which is like ignoring how you feel and keep it moving. Yeah, yeah you actually matter, but adnoring. Yeah, it's ignoring feelings. It's not that words can't hurt me.

They do her.

We're pretending they don't to keep it moving. Yeah, they're not the same as like a bruise from bumping into a wall. But when someone calls you a full freak and that you're going to go to hell, that shouldn't hurt you know. We know that Charlie drove Sean to the hospital. If you don't tell us what happened, he's going to get in a ton of trouble. And so then Stabler asks, like the mom Zoe, like, if kids are so mean, why did you send her there? And Zoe goes, our faith is important to us. We want

But yeah, and if you want it for whatever cultural reasons, there's Sunday's school.

Yeah, church, there's tutors.

Like to put her in an environment where it's hell, makes no fucking sense.

Yeah, And it also I guess it's because for a while it was it was all fine because she was a secret and it's only become hell in the last six months.

But still like not great.

And yeah, I know the Catholic schools aren' less expensive than private schools, but so that could be a reason. But Stabler goes, it's not much of an education when the kids are bothering her, And Zoe goes, she can handle it.

She goes to therapy.

She can talk to me, if she has problems, and then they ask Zoe, well, where were you then, like the night that the afternoon that this kid got stabbed, and she was like, I was at the hospital with Kate.

You think I did it?

So now at the precinct, Craigan's like, why can't you get the truth out of this traumatized eight year old? He's very upset, and they're like, Daddy Craig and her mom is dying in the next room. It's not easy to break an eighty year old who's going through all this stuff. And they're like, and she's been through a ton in the last six months since her moms took her school to court. The family's been harassed, they've changed their number twice, they've had broken windows, graffiti on their doors.

Back to this case.

I just can't get sending your kid to a place where they are not wanted. Yeah, yeah, the school doesn't want your kid.

What are you? Who can right? Why are you forcing it right?

I wouldn't send my kid who can't sing or act or has no interest in the arts into a performing arts high school, you know what I mean. It's like, it just seems like that's even like a like a lazier example, because it's not like the school is teaching them that because you can't sing or dance, you're less of a person or you deserve to go to hell. But Stabler argues that Emma would have been better off pretending she just had one mom and going on with

And then he goes, you don't send your kid to.

Military school if you're a pacifist, not without expecting some friction.

I'm team Stabler. I guess I get his point here.

Yeah, Like he's he's Catholic. He's like, yeah, I get it. But he also, you know later, he's got some good Catholic facts. So Olivia goes, so you agree with the school, and Stablers like, it's complicated. Being Catholic means believing certain things, and Zoe knows that. And then somebody goes, but she wanted to make a point and win one for the cause, and Munch goes, somebody's got to fight the fight, and Finn goes, but it shouldn't be an eight year old,

Let's go find out.

So now they're talking to Father Justin and he's like, Zoe's never called me ever once and he goes, I gave the number to Emma when she first started having problems. He says she mentioned Sean Hammill all the time. He picked on her every chance he got. The priest talked to Sean, leaded with him, begged him to stop teasing her. Nothing worked. He even called his parents and got censured

It's wrong. Homosexuality is the sin.

He like, can't even say it right, and then Stablers like, I don't remember seeing that in the Bible, but.

That's what's crazy about these people.

It's like they're like, oh, groomy, oh, we got to protect her kids from sexuality and gay shit, and yet why does a little kid even know to hate a homosexual?

You know what I mean.

It's like, you can't teach kids the existence of gay people, but you can teach them to hate gay people. That makes no sense, right, yeah, fucking crazy, Like gay people exist, and you could there's two options, be chill or not chill, and you're people be choosing not chill all the time, all the time.

I this just occurs to me.

It's like you're letting you think hating gay people is more appropriate for a child than just knowing gay people exist.

Yeah.

Yeah, and that's what this kid thinks.

And that's why he thinks this girl is weird because she's just related to two lesbians and that must make her a lesbian. It's like, my mom's a doctor. I'm not you know what I mean, Like, you don't, you're not everything that your parents are anyway. But she's getting, you know, relentlessly tortured by this kid Stabler. But I love when Stabler is like, actually I know the Bible very well, and he's like I don't remember seeing that in the Bible, and he goes, Corinthian says gay people

It's not fair.

It's like, I guess if you had done nothing, you'd still be running around playing stickball, you little shit. But now Benson and Stabler go talk to Sean's parents outside and there.

It does suck at such a permanent like punishment or like consequence more so, But that's the risk you take, bitch, Like, yeah, if she had stabbed him somewhere else in the back, he might still be fine, you know what I mean?

Like, right, I don't think she meant to paralyze him.

She just went for the back, you know, Yeah, and I don't feel bad for this kid, and then we see the parents suck. It's not like this kid would have been like a great person walking like whatever.

Well, he's probably gonna become a fucking left right wing podcaster. But Benson and Stabler go to talk to Shawn's parents outside the hospital room and they're like, did he remember anything? And Stabler's like, yeah, that he bullied a girl in school, and the moms goes, Emma should have never been accepted at Saint Victor's and the dad says, we pay a lot of money to give Sean a private education, we should have some say in what he's exposed to exposed to, Like, how.

Is it exposing you to anything?

To just be in a classroom which you're you shouldn't be, by the way, she's clearly in like second grade and you're in fifth. So for you to pass the daughter of two lesbians in the hallway, how is that affecting your life in any way? So Stabler goes, so you told your son it was cool to pick on an eight year old girl, And they're like, we told him he.

Should feel sorry for Emma's moms and pray for them.

Well, he didn't get that message, and the dad goes, so did Emma stab Sean and Stabler confirms, and then he goes, then I don't care if he called her an F word, slur, D word, slur, hoor, bitch from hell, arrest her. I didn't want to say those words, but you guys know what I'm saying. And it's wild that this is set on television, but it is two thousand and five. So these guys are like, get that eight year old girl behind fucking bars. They want nothing but

He fell down and hit his head.

Then she explains how Charlie brought Sean to the hospital and father Justin's car.

She says, sorry, she.

Didn't mean to tell all those lies, and Benson says, we still have to arrest her, and Zoe's like, it's late. Can this wait till she sees Kate in the hospital in the morning. So Benson, in a moment of compassion, says, get an attorney and bring her in by nine am. So now they're at the precinct that evening and they're like. Olivia's like, this kid must have really scared Emma. She's a good kid. She's never had a day of trouble up until now, and our girl, Casey Novac is there going.

Yeah.

The guy that's going to try her in family court is named Garrett Gillespie, and he is supposed to be a hard ass. So suddenly Zoe shows up with defense attorney Roger Kressler aka the late Great Ned Eisenberg, with a motion to suppress the confession, which is, you know, he's a shark, so he's the guy to get if you really need to get someone off. The confession they want suppressed on the grounds that they interrogated Emma without her parent present, because even though they've been together for

So why have you not?

Why were you not adopting her from the get I don't understand. She's still paperwork is hard. Paperwork is hard, but it just seems like yours, Aaron's.

It's you know, appointments, it's tough, getting passports. I know, it's a lot.

She's still her legal guardian though, while her mom's in the hoste, but old Sabler argues and Kressler's too good. He's like, she's a de facto guardian, but the state doesn't give her the right to make decisions for Emma. She's basically a babysitter. Benson looks like she got punched in the gut. She's like, bitch, you raise this child. You're gonna let them call you a babysitter. Zoe's like, I should have legal rights over Emma, but I don't, so why should I claim them now when it can

And she tells him about how.

Like these parents are just horny for a little girl behind bars in a wig, and she tells him about how Kresler got the confession tossed, and he goes, I don't need a confession to convict her, and Casey's like, you really want to send an eight year old to jail for ten years. And she He's like, she jammed the scissors so far into Sean's back, she severed his spinal cord. Sean tormented her and drove her to the edge. Casey argues, belungs in counseling, not Juvie.

Gillespie goes back, it's not like the kid was like I'm gonna fucking paralyze.

Him, you know, yeah, like fu me alone. You just cut my fucking hair off.

Well, because Harriet the spy had a ponytail cutting moment and she got revenge in different ways.

Yeah yeah, And Gillespie's like, that's your opinion, but it's my case, tell Sbu to arrest Emma. So now Benson and Stablers show up at the hospital to get Emma. Her grandmother's there saying Emma's off getting juice in the hospital room. Zoe and Charlie are at Kate's bedside and she looks like she's at death store, Like this woman does not look good. They explain that they're there to

She's my granddaughter? What's happening? And Kate's like, can you back off? Mom? I'm like dying and you're being very shrill right now.

Emma shows up and is like, Olivia says, I have to go with her, and Live goes, someone should go with us, So Grandma Dearest volunteers to go, and then Zoe's goes, no, I'll go, and Keith goes, both of.

You should go?

So Lan this actress that plays the grandma, she has a face for evil, you know what I mean?

Yes, she has wicked stepmother energy for sure, and the yeah she is type cast.

Yes. So now later Casey approaches Live and is like, how did it go?

Do you know her big her big thing where she had one hundred and twenty eight episodes on a show.

This woman? Yeah, oh no, I didn't look her up. Tell me Dawson's Creek. Oh who did she play?

Says Graham's Evelyn Graham's Ryan. So someone's grandma probably.

Isn't that Michelle Williams grandmother Graham's. It's interesting because somebody when rams like grandma, Yeah, yeah, I thought I didn't watch the show, but I always remember Michelle Williams having like a Graham's, you know, like she didn't have parents.

I don't think, Yeah, John.

Lindley is Michelle Williams Jen Lynley and Dawson's.

I think she is Jen.

I think all the people that listen to Dawson's Creek are probably right now screaming at.

Their I used to watch it.

This was so long ago, Like I haven't because I had a bucket hat, a Dawson's Creek bucket hat, I had a Dawson's Creek calendar. Wow, I was into it. I watched it, probably only for a few seasons. I mean, I was in sixth grade. It's hard to make a full on commitment for six seasons. I'm like a you know, a Jeh hide to high school. Things change. But I was very into Dawson's Creek when it came out. But I haven't done a rewatch.

Well, this woman's name is Marybeth Peel, and she's an American actress and an opera singer. She started as an opera singer, a soprano, and you know, she's got a fuck ton of opera stuff in here.

But then yeah, Dawson's Creek. But I was striking the other day. She's in Jersey Girl too. Oh but nineteen ninety two, jetting the Girl that would be Wild.

I was striking and Michael McKean was at my stanking thing. He's from Better Call Saul and his wife is a net O'Toole, and everybody was saying that she also was on that show as a grandma. So I wonder if that's real. Anyway back to reality? Oop, there goes gravity.

Okay.

So later Casey approaches Olivia in the Precincton's like, how'd it go? And she goes, great, I love putting eight year olds in lock up overnight. So Casey goes she

She's detained until tomorrow, and she.

Goes, you're putting my granddaughter in jail and Casey's like, ma'am, she did stab a child and paralyze him. And then the lawyer pipes in that none of this would have happened if Zoe hadn't forced her lifestyle on Emma and Kate Kate the mom lifestyle. Benson gets worked up. Your daughter didn't choose her sexual orientation. She was like, my daughter was happy being a wife and a mother until

She should be released to her parents.

The judge agrees, but says she has to wear an ankle monitor and stay at her mother's house, and Gillespie says, well, that's a problem because her mother's in the hospital. She has no father or legal guardian. Zoe stands up and addresses the judge, explaining that she has as much her parent as her mother is, and the judge goes, why

Now.

Father Justin shows up to court to talk to Benson and ask about Emma's trial, and Benson's like, it is not going great, Father Jay, And worst case is if the judge thinks she's a danger, she'll go to Juvie till she's eighteen. And he's like, I got to help, like you, I'll testify that Sean tormented her. But Live is like, that's hearsay. You weren't you only heard her say that he tormented her. We need proof, and like, what about the damn ponytail? Is that not enough proof

The principal installed software to monitor kids combos.

Maybe my mom did too, But I remember reading my backlogs back in family Court and Sean is up on the stand recalling something your mom would do. No, my mom's and moron with technology. No, and she's too busy to spy. She could never spy.

No.

I could see my dad getting a little bit into that, but not my mom. Nope. And your parent's probably not right. Are they spies?

I don't think there are spies, but they definitely found my pipe immediately the first day I smoked.

Weed cleaning probably right, yeah.

And then I so then they're like and but I didn't want them to get the satisfaction of knowing they caught me on the first time. So I was like, I've been smoking for months, Jesse, you know I'm good at this. Yeah, that's so cute.

How old were you? High school? High school? They like caught me.

There was just like a big day where because then my dad showed up to play practice to make sure I was there, and I was like what And he was shocked that I was there.

But I was, You're like, I'm not a commercial for weed smoking. I actually go to the thing. I go to swim, I go to a theater. So back in Family Court, Shawn's up on the stand recalling the moment

And they're like, we need to hear this from Emma. We haven't heard any of these allegations before.

We've been spending a lot of time with this child, and that's a pretty big coincidence that this is all coming out right after Zoe gets custody. So then he whips out a photo and says, Emma showed them to her grandparents, these photos, and why does a grown woman have pictures of herself in bed with a naked eight year old? And he says, search the apartment and you'll find dozens more like this. So now they're at the apartment.

She's like, this is just email and shit.

The detectives are finding tuition bills, hospital bills, but also like pictures of them having family fun, Coney Island Statue of Liberty, the met And then Benson finds pictures of nude sunbathing and another one of Emma in the tub with Zoe, which I don't find weird.

A lot of people take baths with their kids.

But then Zoe and Emma come home and Zoe asks what's going on, and Emma runs right to the couch, ball and crying, and they tell Zoe that they need to ask her some questions about a complaint, but she says, this is a really bad time, and then Benson goes to talk to Emma and we find out that sadly Kate has died.

Fuck.

Very bad timing on the cops part. So top of back four at the precinct, Stabler has Zoe in interrogation. Emma's gone home with the grandparents and he shows for these pictures and she goes, what do you think these.

Are like porn?

And he go you got an eight year old lying naked in a bed, And Zoe goes, Emma has always been shy, so Kate and I wanted her to have a positive body image, so we took some pictures of her to show her how beautiful she is. Stabler's like, self esteem is one thing, but you got her vamping for the camera like a playboy model. And it's like, what did these picture? What are these pictures? If you think they're sexy, you're the one with the problem, is

Yes?

And Catholicism is your a sin?

Everyone's a sin, The baby's a sin, everyone's a sin.

Yeah.

But also I think that the grandparents are exacerbating what she's like hearing and learning at school Foreshore. So yes, the parents are a bit to blame here, but we can't speak ill of the dead. Kate is dead, but Zoe is still alive. So cut to the debrief, Huang says he doubts Zoe molested Emma. Stabler's like, but she just said that she did. And He's like, Emma's description of the abuse is intellectual, not emotional. Kids say abuse hurts. Emma called it a sin, and they're like, what about

Like Zoe's ruining her life. It's our moral duty to protect Emma.

And then Stabler goes, how about thou shalt not bear false witness my guys, and I love it when he has Catholic comebacks. It really helps me because I feel like he understands the nuances of Catholicism where there are some In court, the parents are on trial and Zoe is on the stand. Zoe is testifying that Emma's grandparents tricked Emma into saying she'd been molested, but Zoe knows it's not Emma's fault. She Emma now understands that Zoe did not hurt her in any way.

She goes, she's just sad all the time. Now, it's really sad when she says that, yeah, because it's also like her mom just died. Her mom just died.

She just had this traumatic thing happened where she hurt this kid, She had her fucking ponytail cut off and was tormented for months. It's like this is all like probably the worst period of her little life. And so she says it's not just because her biological mother just died. She woke up the other day crying and that she dreamed that her mom died and the police took Zoe to jail and that she cried out and no one could hear her.

So that sort of like is what's happening.

So here come the grandparents lawyer and his punchable face going how long has Emma been in therapy to Zoe, and Zoe goes, six months since this kid's at school started teasing her for having two moms, And I was like, also, her mom dying is a great reason for her to be in therapy, Like her mom being sick is a great reason for her to be in therapy. So in three years at Saint Victor's, the teasing only started recently because you insisted on making your presence known at school.

I wonder why.

And that's when she made Kate write her will. Kate was getting sicker and sicker and barely recognized her own parents, but Zoe wanted full custody. So the Grandma's trying to make it seem like Zoe wit, like, played a long game, dated a woman for ten fucking years, had a kid with her, and then waited until she got six so she could have her write her into the will and get the kid, Like, what are you even talking about? The grandmother denies asking Emma to make false allegations against Zoe.

With Olivia and that baby is dick Wolf.

Yeah.

I kind of forgot this episode until we rewatched it.

Well.

I also thought that being a parent makes you less selfish, and it seems like everyone's very selfish in this episode. No one is thinking of baby Emma. Nobody, oh yes, except wildly the priest. This is the one episode where a priest is a good past He was doing good. We stand Father Justin.

We love Father Justin. He's checking im.

Logs, he's counseling children, he lets you use his car whenever you fucking want.

I love Father Justin.

Yeah, what a nice twist of an episode. Father Justin is correct. It's almost kind one of all. Well, good luck to Emma and listen to these ads. Yeah she you know, she turned gothic in high school though totally.

She had a lot going on. And she's wearing blacklist stick and.

A dog collar, probably borrowing one of mommy Zoe's like cool belts, like studded belts, like she had kind of rock star wardrobe going on.

All right, I can't wait for.

Well.

Also thinking of poor Charlie. He's just crying at home alone. No one's paying attention. His mom's dead, everyone's in court. He's got the body like his dad's like you okay, kid, I gotta go to work, all right, all.

Right, well i'll be back. We'll be back, Okay.

So this I'm gonna go over a case and then a concept. So we have a couple things going on with this episode.

Alien.

I didn't realize it was for Alienation, and the whole time I was like, why is it called alien?

But now I get it.

I know.

At first when I heard of this, when we were gonna do this episode, I was like, oh, is this one of the ones where like people are like immigrants or something, and because you know, like illegal aliens or whatever, is like I feel like what they used to call people. And I was like, oh, I bet this is like an old immigration one. My old green card says alien on time. Yeah, yeah, it was an official term. I thought it was an immigration one, is what I'm saying.

Well I was three, So mine's alien. Let's see what the green card says.

Now.

Yeah, I'm just wondering if they got rid of that, Like, I don't think there is. I don't think they did. Oh, you're right.

It says the United States of America Permanent resident. Okay, okay, so yeah, no green cards. I think that term has been phased out, is all I'm saying. So I have a vintage green card. Yes, baby, cool, let's frame it. I do look so sad and cute. Okay, I'm glad they're not calling alien like you come here and then it says alien.

Yeah, we're back to reality. This is the case of.

Sharon Bottom's matts, and so Sharon was a central figure in a super long court battle in the nineties, and she ended up losing custody of her son to her mother after Virginia courts ruled that she was an unfit parent because she was in a same sex relationship.

So fucked up.

This whole case is really fucked up, and it did change a lot of legislation. I think post this case there were a lot of protections made and then like obviously gay marriage became legal. But this was a big Bottoms versus Bottoms.

Wow. So this did influence a lot of things and was a big case.

So in nineteen ninety one, Sharon Bottoms gave birth to her son, Tyler Destau. I don't know how to say his last name, but his name is Tyler. And she was already divorced from the boy's father and he was not involved in raising the.

Child at all.

About a year later, Sharon formed a household with April Wade and Tyler, and this was right outside Richmond, Virginia.

So she met April, they fell in love, they're together and.

They're raising Tyler, and her mom, Kay Bottoms, was like, no, no, no, no, you fucking lesbians, I'm gaining custody of Tyler.

She's a homophobic bitch. There's no real way around it.

In quotes, the boy is a bundle of joy and shouldn't be raised by lesbians and calling another woman dada. I don't care how my daughter lives her life, but Tyler isn't going to be mentally and physically harmed because of their relationship. It's unfit. So that's a quote from Grandma Bottoms. The court case lasted for three years and the Virginia branch of the American Civil Liberties Union handled

So her lawyer was Donald K.

Butler, and he said the intense news media interests took everyone by surprise, and that like he was just being reached out to for so many interviews about the case, and like you know, there was a frenzy. Her former husband, Dennis, testified in support of Sharon and believed that she should have custody. So the dad was like, let Sharon raise our childs And it was just like a fucked up case, like in the courtroom, because a lot of intimate and

Oh my god.

Yeah.

The judge Boufford and Parsons found that bottom mats and quotes conduct if illegal and immoral and renders her an unfit parent. So because she had oral sex with her partner in private, they said she's immoral and an unfit parent.

But our heterosexual couples allowed to be going down on each other in the great state of Virginia at this time.

I mean, if you wanted to take someone to courtny thing, you could, but I don't. I don't know how I didn't look for like other examples. Wow, well, of course, because it probably would never happen.

Yeah.

No, And so because of that, Sharon was only allowed to see her two year old son from Monday morning to Tuesday night, but she couldn't take him to the home she shared with Wade because Wade had no visitation rights and in the deal or whatever in the sentence, Wade was not allowed to see this child at all.

Like they don't know what gay is.

Like two year olds would rather be with their mother, Like yes, you're not thinking about the like about the child at fucking all this it's always about reunification. It's always about being with like your parent if there's no a happening. So it's like so fucked up that Virginia, the courts, this grandmother all thought a two year old would be in more danger with two just women. Like it really is so fucked up. I didn't know about this case.

It was like so fucked up.

So both Sharon and her mom did interviews with magazines and TV shows, but her so her mom lived in a mobile home in Spotsylvania County.

I just Spotsylvania. What do Dalmatians come from?

There?

Like?

I just I wrote that in all caps. I was just really taken by the county's name. So the mom.

One of the press things she did, she went on Sally Jesse Rafael's show and said her daughter was in quotes, doing drugs, She partied, she wanted to have a good time.

I've threatened her many times. I was going to take him.

But in my head, I'm like, well, if she was straight, would that have been an issue her partying? Like you didn't go to court and say my daughter is partying too much? You said she's a lesbian. Yeah, so like, stop pretending that these are the things that made you upset when you went to court for something different. And I know for a fact if this woman was straight, you wouldn't have cared. If she was still a dentist partying, they would not have gone to court. Right right, fuck you, Sharon,

And the mom was like, that's a lie.

But Sharon said that she had been bolested by her mother's boyfriend since she was twelve years old.

Oh my god, and no one cared.

They would rather send her to a grandmother with a man who could have been sexually abusing Sharon for decades over a loving home.

And could sexually abuse Tyler. Yeah.

Then, in nineteen ninety four, a Virginia Court of Appeals panel ruled unanimously that Miss Matt's aka Sharon, should have primary cust of her son. The state Supreme Court said that homosexuality alone could not be grounds for denying custody. Duh, but you know, no excitement here. Her legal victory was very short lived. The lawyer for the mother filed an appeal immediately, and also during this time, the custody arrangement never changed, so she still was only able to see

Judge William G.

Boyce was not happy that Sharon and Wade cooperated with producers of a TV movie. There was a TV movie made about two mother It was called Two Mothers for Zachary. It aired in nineteen ninety six, but Sharon was not paid for the film, so who cares. But also the grandmother was on Sally's Just Raphael, So right, how are you punishing one person for doing Hollywood stuff and not another. I mean, it's all homophobia, Like that's what's all of

So in nineteen ninety five, the case of Bottom's v.

Bottoms reached the Virginia Supreme Court, and in a four to three decision, the court determined that the moral climate in miss Matt's home made her under made her an unfit custodian.

At this time, I'm like about to throw my computer across the room.

Yeah, yeah, So the grandma got permanent custody of Tyler, and like bullshit, that never happens, Like Virginia like fuck everyone. A justice named A Christian Compton said that the condition stemming from active lesbianism practiced in the home may impose a burden upon a child because of the social condemnation attached to such an arrangement. In quotes by the Washington Post, but the social condemnation is coming from you. Yeah, if you guys weren't socially condemning, she would be chill. The

Because that's how I always.

Feel when people talk about gay children of like, oh, it's higher rates of you know, death by suicide and all this stuff. And it's like, yeah, but if you were nicer to them, they wouldn't be so upset. Yeah, they wouldn't have to run away from home and do whatever they need to do to survive, right, And then of course they're sad their parents kick them out right. I to me, it's like, how is no one seeing this that's living there. The social condemnation comes from the

Yeah, and we would not want your kid to find out and have to deal with your gayness.

Yeah, oh my god.

So finally, in nineteen ninety six, she abandoned her legal fight and never gave an interview again.

For the rest of her life.

Sadly, Matt's died January twenty first, twenty nineteen and Richland's, North Carolina, at forty years old, due to cancer. Little is known about her early years or what happened after nineteen ninety six. According to Facebook, she married Bill Matts in twenty twelve and was the co owner of a kennel in North Carolina. Her son, I think is now

So it's like, I just don't understand why.

Hate, Like why teaching your kid to hate gay people is better than just being gay? Yeah, But Okay, So he served in the military, he lives in Virginia, and he did do a post tribute to his mother on Facebook and said she was my very first best friend. One of her last public quotes was to the New York Times in nineteen ninety five, and it was quoted in the post in the Washington Post, she wrote, I deserve my baby.

I gave birth to him. I want him.

Like, isn't that all we really want parents to do, like want and love and want their kid. So the grandmother is a nasty woman, and I think we should do a special episode where we go to Virginia and find this dumb bitch and I.

Hope and hit her miler home over. I hope Tyler doesn't talk to his fucking grandmother. What an asshole. I can't believe this is such a sad story. I really thought there was going to be like because like at one point they ruled in her favor.

I was like, it'll go back to her, you know, Like no, she fucking lost the rights to her child because of true homophobia.

Like nothing else. So gross. So now this is pretty interesting.

So in the episode, they mentioned parental alienation syndrome known as PAS. And what is so funny about this is I started doing research, and I'm writing this stuff and.

I'm reading it, and I'm like, hmm, seems a little off.

And then I noticed that most of the information describing PAS is lawyer's websites, and all the lawyers are white man faces, and so all of a sudden, something ring and ring the alarms to me, and I was like, let me just see if PAS is credible.

It is rejected by.

The American psychiahiatary psychology.

It is not.

A respected thing at all.

It is used by mostly abusive men trying to diminish mothers who want to stay with their child. And so it's really a controversial thing that has been discredited and not like respected. But because we live in a patriarchy, it's it's it's kind of like Jenny McCarthy with the vaccinations, where this dumb bitch quotes an uncredited person and then everyone is like anti vacs.

And that's what happened with the guy who created this. His name is Gardner or something.

I'll obviously get into all of this, Richard Gardner, and he came up with this in the eighties and then it was debunked.

But lawyers use it all the time in courts and it's really fucked up.

So it also taught me how like if I didn't, if I, if I wasn't someone that does so much research, I could have just probably like wrote PAS and lived my life and just told everyone about it.

Thank God, is the respect of.

Mighty senses were like tingling, well yeah, because then it was something of like, well I think I I do believe you should believe a kid if they say they're being a beaute, Like I wonder what's going and then all I'm telling you I went it was like four law offices.

All men.

But what about like I mean, definitely parents do use their children as pawns and will try to corrupt their children.

So are do you are you going to get into that? Like that is something even if it's a PAS. Yeah, so fal sack.

So one of the stats is like his whole thing was ninety eight percent of women lie about being abused. That was his sticking and then the Department of Justice

So they're kids, Like, I don't think that's it doesn't happen, right, And.

Also in like a world where Munchausen exists, like there are also parents that are like I want you to love me and not your other parent, you know.

Like So PAS is a strategy where one's parents intentionally display unjustified negativity towards another parent to the child. It is a term coined by a forensic psychiatrist who is dead but his name is Richard Gardner, and he said it was a phenomenon he witnessed where children were being turned against one parent, and it usually came up during divorce or bitter custody battles, Like duh, when else would

Got it.

Most of his work was self published and non peer reviewed, and his evidence was all anecdotal. There was no scientific evidence for this, and his positions have caused a lot of controversy among those who are involved in the detection

And so they have a YouTube video.

It's posted in the sources and so here I may main takeaways from the Stop Abuse Campaign's YouTube.

Video about PAS.

And so this video is made in twenty twenty one, and they say from twenty ten to twenty twenty one, seven hundred and seventy three children have died as a result of joint custody and soul custody to a parent that is abusive. They say about fifty eight thousand kids are sent back to to abusive homes by the courts. And like I sow, yeah, it's a debunked theory to say most accusations are false, but there's no basins in science or research. But it has become a routinely accepted

Were male lawyers.

Yeah, and it's become a profitable industry on building a cur Like so people have built full careers on this theory and now it's become a huge obstacle for families trying to live an abuse free life. And PAS is very gender bias. You know, mothers are carrying the brunt of this dude's theory because they're turning their children against their husbands.

Correct.

So basically a kid is like, my dad hits me, my dad hits my mom. My dad is bad, And they go, oh, you're a victim of PAS. Your mother has turned you against And in this situation, it's like in this situation of the episode, I feel like it worked because there was no evidence and she had never brought this up before, so it worked like as a

Yeah, So, and the grandma is guilty in this episode.

And that's my ass to view. Is such a good show. So more about this Gardener guy. It's it's just like one loud man with a wrong idea and boom. Abuse cases for decades are affected. Like I said, he testified in over four hundred child custody cases and fought for kids to be taken out of the home of the alienating pas parent and give custody to the parents accused of abuse. He worked with Woody Allen on that case other big cases. I don't know if I wanted to talk. Yeah,

So take what that which you will.

But nonetheless, like I said, he was a professor of child psychiatry in the College of Physicians and Surgeons at Columbia University from nineteen sixty three until his death. You know, that my brother went there and they call it p ands and it just sounds like kenis like they just say pns all the time.

We got to ask Colin if he knows about this guy. Yeah, I will.

He has a quote where he wrote, there is good reason to believe that most, if not all, children have the capacity to reach orgasm at the time that they are born.

What which is not true?

And why is the what's your good reason to believe that? Oh he's a man a pedophile.

Yeah, he believes that pedophilia is like homosexuality or bestiality or whatever, which those two aren't similar. But he thinks being a pedophile is just an orientation. And then once he was accused of being a pedophile, he did an interview where he's like, no, you could you know being a murderer is also a thing in your brain. I can that you can or no, He's like, I can think those things are ingrained in you while not supporting them. But he believes that teens come on to people and

And I guess he thinks that children can orgasm and he loves.

What he Allen says, Christ Yeah, I bet he's been to Epstein Island. He did die by suicide, which kind of cool, I guess, by stabbing himself at his home on May twenty fifth, two thousand and three, at age seventy two. His son said that he had been distraught over the advancing symptoms of reflex sympathetic dystrophy, which was a.

Painful neurological syndrome that he got.

And so, but like, aren't there pet pills you could take or something that doesn't like involve bleeding out for like your family to find you.

Jesus, Sorry, that's really a lot. We are shocked by cases often, we're always shocked, actually on this show.

But I am this is really shocking. I'm really glad that you followed your intuition, which is very you. You you never don't follow your intuition. But like, I'm just shocked, all right, I'm just shocked. Everybody just try to pick your jaw up off the floor and hang on for our interview, because we've got a great interview coming up right now.

Okay.

Our guest today is an actor who is frequently typecast as an evil bitch, but is in reality very fun and lovely person. You might know her from her sitcom work as a regular on Caroline in the City, The Office, and Modern Family. You can currently see her on the new supernatural drama wolf Pack, but you know her today as rock and roll lesbian mom Zoe Dunlop. Please enjoy our convo with the delightful Amy Pete's.

We're so Happier here, an iconic episode of sv You.

It feels that way. It's a real boosy it.

Well it is, I mean one of our favorite things about this show, and very few people are able to achieve.

This is one singular tier. Drop it.

And you you did that, nailed it?

Do you plan for one singular tier or it just happens? Like, how does that?

You kind of stuck on this singular tier thing? I've heard you ask this of other people.

How does she's obsessed?

No? No, no, it's a possible to put.

That's like saying I'm going to have an orgasm, but it's only gonna last a certain amount of time and I'm not gonna you.

Know what, But do you feel good that good when you nail it?

Do when they like, yeah, it does feel as good as an orgasm when you nail that.

Yeah, I got in it. Yeah, you're kind of like, ooh.

I'm really premenstrual and I'm very emotional and if I can just imagine having one cocktail, I'll be open enough to cry.

Yeah.

Love that, love it.

What is like?

So, how was the what was the process of getting this part?

Like they just sentenced you and they were like, hey, we think you'd make a great lesbian mom or like what.

I cannot remember if I auditioned or if I was offered this because I was kind of like hot for like ten seconds in my career. I wish it would have lasted at least sixty but it was really only time seconds, so I don't remember.

I don't remember auditioning for this, so it may have been an offer.

And I was thrilled to go to New Jersey and work there with Chris Maloney and Marushka Hargate, and I thought it was going to be pretty great.

And it was. It was, It was really great.

Maloney and Marishka were very intense, very quiet, very professional, and I just felt like goofing off all the time, and I had to, like, I had to be really serious all the time.

I had to squelch my natural instinct to goo around.

Interesting.

Interesting was we hear that about Maloney, but we hear Marishka can kind of loosen up and be funny sometimes.

But she was warm. She was definitely warm to me and lovely, you know.

But if I had to do a procedural, I would have to change my entire personality.

There's the way I could survive that for as many years as they did. Well.

This was also like this season was like I would say, almost like the height of the whole series, Like seven is like it's I think it's the season, Marushka one me like it's really like they were turning it on at this point, like really banging out. Some of the most classic apps are in this season. So you should be proud to be part of such an iconic season.

Thank you. I'm so proud. In this episode, I watched it.

Again because I hadn't seen it in it forever and.

I laughed a lot.

The lines, Oh my.

God, the writing was hilarious in this episode.

Yes, what were your highlights?

It's really in the beginning. The first act I think has the funniest shit in it. Not only were there lines like what were you doing down.

At the store?

They got pixie sticks to like two cops one of them it has a thing for pixie sticks just because she's cute.

And the friend of the pod, Oh yeah, she's been on the podcast.

That was the hilarious line.

There were many hilarious sense when when Belzer help holds up scissors, is like our kids able to touch these? Like like kids aren't allowed to touch it's like an AR fifty seven.

No, it's a scissors. Yes, kids are gonna touch scissors.

All their investigative stuff and act when it was hilarious and the camera angles were even really good.

I just I loved it.

Well, I do another thing that's I don't know if it's funny or not. The kid was wearing a wig, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah okay.

And have you have you googled her? Because I was really curious about this girl and she's like a singer, like a like a hot sya Toatzy singer.

Now, oh, I did google her, but her IMDb looks like it was done, so I didn't look further.

But I guess she's.

Singing yeah yeah, and her ig she's got a bunch of followers and she's the singing.

She's so cute.

She's all grown up.

I know.

I love that girl's face, and she was really sweet and her accent was so thick.

She's like, mommy, what do we do when women knew you?

Look?

Did you do you have any stories or bonding moments with.

The child's with I mean, this was twenty three years ago. Well, I also have another wild question that's considering how long ago.

I feel like it might be crazy to ask, but.

Let's ask those crazy questions because my long term memory is completely shot.

Maloney's like showing you the pedophile photos. Oh my god, look do you remember, like what was it?

Just?

Was it anything?

Okay? Well, what do you mean was it anything anything? Like?

Was he show the piece of paper?

What was it?

Yeah?

No, there there were pictures of like a little girl on her side. She wasn't naked or anything, but like they were the real pictures.

But what cracked me up the most about that was I used.

That theme for my real and one of the things I couldn't get past and I almost didn't use it, was because when I'm crying and he's showing me the pictures, I say.

Something like, what do you think this is porn? But because my nose was stuffy, it sounded like I said, what do you think this is corn?

But you you obviously didn't pick up on that, so maybe I porn.

I didn't hear corn. I thought you said porn, but okay, that's good.

Didn't do adr, so it.

Must have just been me, I guess the first What else was funny to me that the grandma at the end thought that you guys were going to be friends again.

Yeah, like you falsely accused me of molesting my daughter. You were not going to be tight lady. You brainwashed her? Doesn't.

Yeah, not only was that weird, but the little boy that torments her like basically attempted rape and some kind of sexual assault because he kissed her. You know, he's like, I'll turn you. You're not gay, I'll turn you straight. And nobody deals with that, do they?

No?

No, No, everyone's just this poor boy.

I will never walk this poor homophobic boy will never walk again owner.

Yeah, well, I was going to say Stephen Bogartist who plays the attorney of the grand parents. He and I later did a musical together. He is a lovely individual, and I was just trying to think of other people I knew in the episode by.

What musical were you in?

We did a musical called Falsettos, which he did on Broadway and then the LA reprise version of it. I played another lesbian, so that I was kind of typecast as a lesbian. In the nineties, it was either slut or lesbian, and the two were very very close together. According to society and casting at that time, they just thought, well, lesbians must be slutty. Yes, we can cast Amy as both a heterosexual quote unquote slut and a lesbian, and

Oh yeah, yeah?

Is that fun?

Uh?

You know, no, got to say no, it's it's I've played so many of them now that and people treat you differently on set, you know, that whole thing of like they kind of assume you are the character.

Even the crew and other actors.

Just assume you're going to be a narcissistic bitch if you're playing one. It's it's weird as you age and you know, you look sort of like an entitled Karen, and then they just think you are right interesting.

I can't believe that happens.

Oh yeah, I mean it happens to me at airports with like airport security. People just assume I'm going to cause some kind of major castle and call the manager and make a scene just because of how I look.

Yeah. Wow, I mean we're all profiled, aren't we.

People don't think I belong in pre checks sometimes and I have to be like I am I'm oh really yeah, or like I am diamond actually, so I'm I'm going here.

They don't believe that you have racked up that many miles, I mean that much of an expert traveler.

Huh Yeah.

Like recently the guy was like, you're going in this line. I go, I'm actually not, sir, But but I do dress extra insane at the airport. I wear my iced tea sweatshirt at the airport, So I think that might give off a vibe that I'm not aware of that might be a little you're.

Not a serious person. Only people get pre checked.

I'm serious. Yes, I think that is the vibe it gives.

I would give anything for that ice two sweatshirt. I love that.

But I'm more shocked that the crew, since you would think they know that it's acting, that they would separate you from your narcissist character.

I have to overcompensate.

I have to be like extra warm and like bake them a bunkcake, you know, and like bring it to set and do foot massages or.

Something, which I used to do premi too.

No I'm kidding, I never did, But like I really have to like smile a lot, be all midwestern so that people know I'm not really that that nasty bitch they think I am.

You were on like everyone kind of now fantasizes and reminisces that that was like the best time on television and that everyone was just like rich, popular and living the life completely.

I mean that it was the easiest job ever because you work about thirty six to forty hours a week.

You know, you roll in at ten.

Am, You get fed lunch and breakfast and all the snacks you want.

There was a gym under the stage, so if I was in myhors thing. I'd go down and like stretch and lift a few ways. Then I'd go to my dressing them and do.

My nails, and then I go back to the stage and just like goof and be funny.

And yeah, it was the best. It was the best. Like there wasn't I.

Don't know, six thousand channels and so people really were watching your show, you know, like tens of millions of people, and they paid great, which they don't do anymore, and it was a great easy life.

Yeah I could go back, I would well.

And I mean and like to get even more base. Just networks bought sitcoms. I mean, it's not a Yeah, they're not even really like sitcoms like that anymore.

I know, I don't think they go because I think they started sucking.

I think they started making them really poorly, and they thought that a sitcom was just joke after joke with really mediocre actors. And it's supposed to be based in the theater. I supposed to have like it's supposed to be the trickiest twenty two minutes, the most clever twenty two minutes. It's supposed to it's supposed to be a really challenging art form, and they took it for granted.

I think because they they didn't, they didn't know that shit.

That's interesting.

I never thought about it that way because, yeah, Live Audience like kind of the way it's set up, it doesn't make sense a lot of those sitcoms were well.

Don't you think the older ones are phenomenal? You know?

Yeah, I mean Seinfeldt like so many all these shows like still hold up. Yeah, Leah Thompson has been in SVU.

She has.

I'm sure we all have, haven't we all been in SVU.

Well, we've talked to.

You've worked with Stephen Weber a lot. He's an SVO Alive friend of the pod.

He's a hilarious, charming, wonderful, very charming.

Oh, we had the best sign with I felt for him.

Yeah, we were, I know, he's a charmer. Had a crush on Stephen Webber for.

We were in Chicago and we sent him an email. We were like, come meet us out after our show.

I hope he did. He probably didn't because he knew.

Said he had an ear. He had a super early call time. Like okay, you can't like look bad on Chicago med or whatever.

It is you know, Oh, come on, how old is he? He can look bad for a day. It's not going to make that much of a difference. It's the same with me now, I don't care. I'm like, yeah, puppy eyes, that's just a part of it, the whole puppy saggy thing. What difference is it going to make?

Love it? You're fun, You're fun.

I can't believe you guys are doing this podcast.

It's really crazy, isn't it It is? It's crazy exists and.

To explain the whole damn plot, can I ask you is this already written or do you guys have to like.

Look, we write it in our own voices.

Oh yeah, well yeah after this, I'm not for this, but I'm researching the crime.

I'm for a different episode, and I.

Have to go watch an episode and like type out exactly what happens or whatever. So yeah, we I mean there are some episodes there exists, synopsis is online, but I can't imagine if like we just got on and just read those.

You know, we research and we researched the crime. Tomorrow's crime is good. But we were at a comedy festival all weekend and so we did not do our work ahead of time.

Okay, gotcha, I understand your business social We were networking pretty hard into the early morning hours every night's work.

I did twice.

That's aw.

You're in another one of our favorite shows. You were in the series finale, Dexter.

Yes, yes you could. You could feel the tension between the two leads. I think they had just divorced.

Yes, riding in the van, that was a little tense. Give us the tea, Give us that dex tea.

Well, I don't know.

I mean I just tried to keep my mouth shut.

That's one where you keep your head down when you know that they're in the tabloids for having just divorce, and you just don't I just didn't want to talk to anybody because I thought, knowing me, I'm going to be like, so, how's it like me, what's it like work? Yeah, And that would have really sucked for both me and them. So I had the sensibility to keep my mouth shut.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, I did a lot of little guess pop star things here or there. It's much more fun to do the regular jobs where you can include people as your family and you get to stick with them. For a long time, and they get to see you at your best and your worst and you can goof around. That's way more fun than just popping in for a day and try to keep your mouth shut.

Yeah, trying to keep your mouth shut. And it was a wild one because it was like the end of the it was the last episod.

The whole finale of the series.

Yeah, are you there?

When everyone was like crying during their wraps and stuff.

Again, I think it was more of a tension, and I'm sure they were all distracted and like onto their other projects and mixed had mixed emotions.

It is.

You know, people get it can be a grind the one hour drama. Being a regular and a one hour drama can be a real grind for them, especially when you don't get to laugh as much as I get to laugh when I'm a series regular on other genres of shows. And so, you know, you see a lot of tired actors, you know, at five am in the makeup trailer, and then they're tired in the middle of the day and everybody has like six coffees to stay awake.

And then at the end of the day they just cannot wait to get out of there. So, yeah, it's way more fun to be on a sitcom.

You prefer sitcoms? Okay? Cool? Interesting? Do you like the audience of it or are just in terms of comedy you like the live audience.

Yeah.

I do a lot of theater as well. But if I don't have a live audience and I'm on a single camera comedy which really means five cameras instead of the four in a sitcomb, then the crew is my audience. And so if I can get the crew to crack up, then then I feel just fine. I feel like all is right with the world.

And yeah I can I can breathe, And that's what you want.

You want, you know, you want to see the camera shake a little bit or people covering their mouths, stuff like that.

It's fun.

Are you so? Are you based in La?

Yeah? So?

Are you do do theater here then? Or do you like go out on the road and do like like other cities?

I do both. Did you know what I just read?

Los Angeles has does more productions of theater than New York?

Really?

Yes?

Is that crazy? Doesn't mean they're all good?

But help, I've seen crap in New York too.

Yeah, so I do.

I do theater and I do a play every couple of years. The last one I did in La was at the Market Taper.

It was Sweat.

Then I just did a new play workshop up in Ashland, Oregon for a new Lisa Lumer play.

I did a I did Designing Women for the stage.

Which one were you?

I was crazy? I was the Delta Burke role, like you believe that. I know, I'm definitely more anti pots, but yeah.

So I played the Susanne sugar Baker role in an updated new play written by the same writer as the TV series and incredible woman, Linda Bledworth Thompson, and she said it when Biden got elected, so and COVID hit and it's all the same women, but they're dealing with the politics of living in Atlanta and having Trumpers and Progressives all together, and it was it was really funny.

Wow.

They're still doing it in other cities. So they would love to take it to Broadway. We'll see, we'll see what happens. I don't think I'll be a part of it. I think that's what they would intend. It was too long, three three hours long.

That's a lot of designing women.

That's a lot when we're all used to, we're all used to really just an episode at a time.

What are you, what have you?

What do you have going on right now? I mean your IMDb has stuff on it, but we never know if those are correct.

I yeah, I recur on a show called wolf Pack, where I play a narcissistic evil bitch and I'm the sort of the Mary Tyler Warren ordinary people mom to one of the wolves.

Poor kid. He yeah, I really did a number on him in.

His childhood and it's so bad that he needs a super power to survive me.

And yeah, and I bet he'll kill me.

I've been told, but I would think I would think I'm not going to be alive.

I'm really evil on the show.

Oh wow.

Yeah. And then, as I mentioned, I am developing my own show, a big ensemble.

How do I say it?

It's about white Christian nationals trying to destroy our democracy.

So I got that going on.

Those are not.

Melo drama.

There'll be some there'll be some true life comedy happening there, and true life crime.

And true life desperation.

Wow wow wow exciting. Well, we'll keep an eye out for that. Would you be in it?

If Marissa Tomay does not get the role.

I will play it. It's amazing.

I want to know your perspective. You seem honest and in it. What are your like when you show up on set? What are your big like red flag pet peeves where you're like, oh, this is going to be a day.

They have been the aforementioned silence in the van from the place where you.

I mean, I don't want to use too many sex stories.

But after you get your hair and makeup on and you're getting you're going to set. If there's a bit of distance to travel, they put you in a van and you all travel together.

And if it's silent in the van, is going to be a longe day?

Oh?

Interesting?

Yeah? And then also what's very telling? And then I know how to prepare.

I just stay away from the leads because shit travels downhill, right, So somebody up at the top is making everybody unhappy. It's either one of the leads or one or one of the producers, or somebody out there is an asshole, and so you just have to keep your head down, keep your mouth shut, show up and do your job and go home.

Okay, stay away from the leads and chat out then.

If they don't, if they don't say hello, yeah, that's a good that's a good sign that you probably just not attempt to ever say hello again.

You should write a book, right do people tell you that? A lot?

They do not about that.

They tell me to write books about all the other horrid affairs and experiences I've had.

But yeah, I probably would get sued.

You're right, I I you know, I'm a little honest about that stuff, and that's known as libel or defamation. I'm sure there'd be some legal reason I would be in trouble. So it's a good thing I don't write that stuff down.

No, I can't wait. I hope yours show fucking crushes. Would you rather have marisitomey or would you rather be in it?

I would rather be in it for sure, for sure.

Yeah, I'm I'm It's very autobiographical and it's one of the most fun roles on it in this series that I am writing. And it's kind of the comedic relief but very tragic. So it's a good one.

It's a good one. I would love to play it.

Yes, yeah, you two could definitely play like sisters for sure. Have you been going up against her like your entire career, No, because she.

Got super famous and then I just stayed in TV and then got less famous.

But I remember, I remember waiting tables.

In Chicago and I hadn't even gotten on my first series yet. I was working at the Goose Island micro Brewery and I had the most vivid dream of Marisitome.

My cousin Vinnie had just come out, and everybody was like, you look like cars to me. You look like Mercy to me, You act like mar to You're like Mercy to me.

So I had a dream that the dream opens with me the pov of my hand knocking on a trailer door, you know, a trailer where actors go and hang out, And I'm knocking on the trailer door, and Mercy to my opens and I'm and I look down and I've got like a headset on my head and a walkie talkie and I'm the PA on a movie that she's shooting and she's the star of. And I remember thinking she's going to surpass me, and I will be upset about this for the rest of my life.

And that's what happened.

You're a psychic, a psychic, but I haven't been a PA yet, so a production.

Yet, that's not I don't think that's in the cards for you. Oh, thank you so much, Amy. This was awesome.

Thank you, thank you girls.

I loved her.

I want to hang out with her. I want to do everything. I want to talk shit and gossip and make fun of things and maybe I don't know, have a mohido in the backyard.

She's fun.

I want to see her get cast as like Marissa Tomay's like fucked up sister or something like Marissa Tomey is the good girl and then she's like the one that can't get her act together or something.

I want to see that. Maybe I'm gonna write that show for them.

I mean, as much as we love Amy, this episode is so infuriating.

I know there's a lot of like why's in this episode, Like why are you sending your child to Catholic school when they actively hate.

What you what you stand for.

But you know, I already talk about the Hillsong documentary on this podcast.

Yeah, okay, I forget when, but we did. Okay, great.

It's just when people are like, oh, I can't believe this church is patriarchal, it's like, yeah, yeah, what do you think was gonna happen? I just don't get pushing your kids, But I meant the infuriating more of the true crime in the naties in the nineties, a grandma just snatching her daughter's kid. What because she's like, it is it's bonkers that that happened, and it is.

I don't know everything.

It's really high baking, Like I really I really hated hearing about that.

But I mean, atting Target, what are we doing?

You know what?

It's tough because I read this whole Twitter thread from a trans worker at Target who was like, yeah, move the display to the back. I don't want to get shot. I don't think it's I need to get shot for this performative ally ship like who Like Target's been forever supporting gay LGBTQ community. They have done it forever, like just because the stuff's not right in the front. I

But you never know.

I mean it's like they're too fast, these people with guns. I also, I also don't live in an open carry state. I don't live in a state where you know, I feel like guns are just everybody fucking has a million of them. So I'm not I'm speaking from a privileged place where I go to my Target and I feel pretty safe.

Yeah, I just the hateful people really have swayed. Dude, Like I heard the stocks. It's just it is because it's been pride shit at Target for years.

Yeah. Well alcohol rinds go gay every June for years.

I know, but it, like everything, it's complete miscommunication. With Dylan mulvaney, they sent her one bud light can and they thought this transperson is gonna be on all my bud light cans, and that's when they went crazy.

It's not true. I don't know why you care, but it's also not true.

They also for the Target thing, they thought that there was tucking tucking bathing suits being sold to children.

They're not.

They're in adult sizes, they're not four children like, So everything's misinformation. They all just get misinformation, and they're all like dumb and can't think critically, the.

Bigots, So it's tough. It's really tough.

But I understand Target wanting to keep their employees safe. But I also understand the idea of not cow tewing, like don't negotiate with terrorists. But actually, our former guests of this podcast, Rachelle Lefev, was going through it because she put up on her Instagram because she has a non binary child, and then all these people were coming at her in the comments about her non binary.

Child and it was fucked up.

Man.

There's just a lot of gross hate out there, and it is and for us too.

It's like all we do is research how the straits are out there killing and molesting, Like, yeah, all of our evidence points to it's your dad, it's your uncle, and it's your pastor so like you barely.

Ever had a crime where it was an LGBTQ person, Like barely well maybe I know.

I think Eileen Warnos was into women, but you know, she did what she had to do.

She was covered also abused by straight men, yes, and a whole town of straight people.

It's just like, I don't know, it's so hard.

I can't believe they ripped this child out of this mother loving mother's hands. When people you should be so lucky to have great parents, you know, loving parents. It's all just so fucked up. I like, you know, one, it's hard not to spiral. I'm back in the spiraling.

Phase of life. Yeah, it feels very spirally. It's not good. Yeah, it's really it's tough.

And like, I mean, yeah, like I was starting to spiral yesterday reading about how Trump, if he gets elected says he wants to get rid of birth like basically like the amendment that says if you're born in the US, you're a citizen, so that people stop, you know, so that immigrants stop coming and having babies here. And I was just like, no, and like I was reading all these Twitter comments. I mean, Twitter is so horrible. Now I gotta get off. I got I really got to get off.

It's fucked up. But this episode we learned a lot. I mean we learned that.

I Mean. The thing is, we bash religion a lot. And I know some of you do like church, but I'm still I think it's dumb. And that's you know, that's you're right.

Other people can't and other people have said, like, you know, there are good parts of church.

I'm sure there are. I'm sure there are.

In this specific case of these fictional people. I think it's strange.

I do.

I also do the grandma. Guess who loves Jesus? The grandma?

Yea.

The worst one of all is lying, not a sin. I'm sorry. I thought lying was one of the mortal sins. I don't understand it.

Yeah, bearing, false witness, et cetera. I don't know what the different sins are.

But I know, you know, the Seven Deadly Sins. Yeah, only because of the movie seven.

Oh you're right, no, but that's different than the ten command yeah, which yeah, I meant, yeah, well, seven Deadly Sins. I literally just go through the movie seven and I'm like, Okay, there's slow, there's lust.

Or there's the America's Next Top Model episode photo shoot too. Oh they did that well, it was actually really really fucked up, and I bet production did this on purpose.

But it was the Seven Deadly Sins.

But they were posing in caskets that were lowered into the ground, so they were literally in like a graveyard deep six feet under in a casket, doing seven Deadly Sins photo shoot. But one of the girl's friends took their own life the day before, and she like found out crying hysterically her friend died or overdose or something, and then they made her film at the graveyard.

Like sometimes that show is like fear factor.

Yeah.

I really feel like sometimes they're like, how can we get these models to absol have a nervous breakdown like doing something with heights or something gross or whatever that

You know, and also the parents of the boy you raise a shitty kid. I'm sorry he can't walk again, but like he sucked and he's done, and it's really got it in there.

I really got that andet those scissors in there to go to sever the spinal cord.

It's like your seven.

And we do love the pastor that let everyone use his car. Never mind, we do love him.

We love him. See, there's a good part to every religion.

There's a good part for every grandma that's brainwashing their daughter and their granddaughter to thinking that her mom is a child molester. There's a pastor who lets everybody drive his car.

We love that.

And I think we learned in this episode in terms of parental alienation syndrome.

Make sure you check your sources. Double take.

Yes, well, this actually leads me perfectly into our what would Sister peg do?

I wasn't even planned, which you.

Guys know is our weekly segment where we direct you towards like an article, an organization, a doc, a blog post, something to help you give to give you more info.

And what we talked about today.

And after we recorded this episode, like a day ago, I was scrolling and I follow Pro Publica, who does great work that I believe is like community funded. They do really great in depth like articles about injustices happening all over the world. So they released an article called a court ordered siblings to a reunification camp with their estranged father. The children say it was abusive, a long title, but we're going to link to it in our stories.

They say, so as we know, it's a.

Dubious psychological theory at best, not accepted in courts. And this even though it is like it's not, but it is. And this camp's methods are very controversial and mysterious. And this is why it's so disturbing that they're requiring a strange parents and their children to attend. In this specific article, they required the kids to attend after a couple of days.

They did not want to do it.

They really hated it. They got brought to the hospital during this short time. The mother was not permitted to see them during this time, and it just it feels really crazy. And I really want you guys to read this article because it elaborates a lot on what Lisa discovered, which was, oh, people are using this defense, but it's not medically accepted or accepted by any psychological institutions.

So if you'd like to know, Mark, yeah, I am horrified.

Yeah, and it's you can go on over to Pro Publica or as always, the link is in our show notes and in our instagram in the what would Sister peg Do highlight that we put up that's always there on our Instagram, but really really wild, and I'm really glad that Lisa kind of stumbled upon this being not good.

Well, and this reminds me I haven't watched the Randall Emmett Hulu thing yet, but I'm just going off of like Laala at the vander Pumprey reunion, but it's this thing of like and I've heard bits and pieces at the dock where he wasn't at the birth, He like left her there and was like whatever, it's not like the kid cares till five, like so, and what she said where she was like, I could never get him to stay home, and then when she hit the fan,

The custody is about controlling her and making her feel like he owns her.

Like honestly, is that is it? Like Randall does not give a shit about being with that kid?

No, And we just I don't understand why we're supporting it, Like as a culture, it's just like, well, what about the dads?

Fuck those dads. I don't know. Well, that's fucking that's patriarch.

I mean, like just the fact that this is mostly used as a defense against dads. Are you saying that dads are never talking shit about the moms. Dads are never trying to tell their kids that their mom is crazy?

Like, come on, it's just really dark and twisted, and it's like, you guys want moms to raise the kids, and then as soon as.

This then it's not.

It's like then if they stay behind Yeah, yeah, fuck, I'm gonna read this camp thing yeah and get mad. You know I'm not mad enough day to day? Okay, next week, please join us. We'll be doing that episode Privilege, season four, episode seventeen Hulu Peacock, which is my new lord and.

Saviors, Peacock.

I'm I pray to the altar of Peacock to give us uncensored reunions. I want to hear Andy Cohen say fuck all day long, like, oh yeah, we thought Peacock was gonna be Ciso, and then Peacock is now better than anything.

Peacock is good.

Wait, somebody talked about how HBO Max they dropped HBO and.

Now they're just Max.

And then somebody tweeted your move, Peacock. I thought that was so funny. Sorry, I can't credit the tweet. I just saw it like off the cuff.

But thank you guys so much for listening. We love you, coy Ye Live. We'll see you next week.

By That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email at That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Klank and at glitter Cheese.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much, to our producer Kac O'Brien, and to our.

Mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cootner. And to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly gen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgareff, Daniel Kramer and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

Dud done