Accredo w/ Sebastian Roché

Of the law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on.

These are our stories, done done. Hello, Welcome back to That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast.

I'm Kara Klank.

And I'm Liza Traeger and we every week talk about an episode of SVU and then the true crime it's based on, and we interview a guest from the episode.

So jam packed. But now we just chit chat because we miss each.

Other and now it's time to banter.

We've been getting a couple of messages and comments about our voices and people can't tell us apart, which I think is so funny because I really think we sound so different.

But yeah, you.

Sound more proper, and I feel like I sound like I smoked weed every day for a decade. So that's where I think my voice is.

I was. I always thought I had a raspy voice, but yours is definitely raspy are but mine is too.

I think I don't know.

I always thought I was like the nanny, but I don't think it's that extreme. I think it's just like maybe my own jew hatred or something of myself. I don't know, but when I hear myself, I'm like, I'm the Nanny.

I love that fran Dresser. That show holds up. I don't know if anyone's watched it. Oh, that would be another poll on our instagram of what are you into the Nanny.

The Nanny and Married with Children? All though those shows really test time.

Georgia Hardstark just tweeted recently and was like, why were our parents letting us watch Married with Children when we were younger, like like that was a normal way to look at a marriage or a family like and I used to watch it religiously and my parents, I think I did it behind their back because they thought it was like really cross.

But I also meet lots of people who like their parents didn't let them watch The Simpsons.

I wasn't allowed to watch Threes Company. I wasn't allowed to watch you can't do that on television because my mom thought that when you got slimed, that was gross.

I feel like it's just like on.

A day where they're like, turn the TV off, You're not allowed to watch the show anymore. Like I don't know, I think they're just like having a time sometimes.

Well, I was a professional backup nanny for years in Chicago.

Amy got bragging.

Yeah, and I've baby said.

I would like to say probably like a hundred plus families, And my professional take is the families that had the most extreme television rules their kids were the most crazed and obsessed with TV, and the families that it was free, reign whatever, no one cares.

They would buy themselves, choose not.

To watch to do something else.

Yeah, Like to them, TV was just an option, so they didn't care as much. But that the kids that only got a half hour, they were like I would, well, I was kind of sometimes bad at my job, and so I would pretend to nap but then kind of really nap, and then I would hear them be like should we wake her up?

Or should we?

And then they would continue to watch television instead of telling me I've told you that.

I used to babysit for the actress Alison Williams.

Wait, but what do you mean Alison Williams. Alison Williams who was like in Get Out and Stuff and like like Brian Williams daughter. Yeah, so I used to babysit for her a few times when I was younger. She's not that much younger than me, but like it was one of those things where like I was twelve and she was eight or something or seven.

They were the best kids, Like they were so good, so.

Like they were not allowed to watch anything on Nickelodeon, like I guess, especially like yeah, just led the night time stuff on Nickelodeon. They were not allowed to watch. But I let them watch Ren and Stimpy one time, and I was like, don't telling me, don't tell your parents. And they told their parents, of course, because there were like these honest children, but children don't understand lying in that way. They're always never trust a child, you know.

Wait, but then, were you fired or did they just say what?

We were like sort of family friends, Like I didn't get fired. They were just like and remember, no Nickelodeon. They mentioned that you let them watch ren and Simpy, and I was like, oh did I okay, so.

Wait, did she have a good voice? Did you know that she was going to be an actress?

You know what's so funny is her we used to do Disney singalong songs like where you follow the Bouncing Mouse? Like we used to do that all the time. And you know, I didn't know she was going to be an actress. No, I certainly didn't.

I loved those videos. We did those in elementary school. Mister House was my music teacher. Oh shout out, I hope you're still kicking. But he had favorites and I didn't like that. So if you're listening, mister House, you shouldn't have had favorites. It really fucked with our heads. I do have a big shout out. What yesterday on my walk I saw a dog with a bow and that's going to carry me through the week that it was.

And in the same week, one of your friends told you that you remind them of the pink aristocrat aristocrat cat. That's yeah, aristocats cat. Yeah.

Lily, my old roommate and friend, she out of the blue text to me a photo that the cutest cat in the world from aristocats, going, Oh, you just remind me so much of her. I'm like, oh my god, I'm obviously gonna get.

A tattoo of this king a dog with a bow.

What a week.

Well, and also my favorite Instagram. Every outfit of Sex and the City is a fan of sview and listens to this podcast, and they followed me on Instagram, which was a big deal for me as well.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, if you're a Sex had a Baby fan, you should follow them. They're very clever and fun.

And fashion experts, so you get like actual, it's not just like I like this outfit, like they know the designer, the references. They would actually be really good judges on Drag Race. If I'm being honest.

Are you loving Season thirteen of Drag Race?

I'm loving it. I love when no one goes home. So these episodes have been great. Yeah, well they've been doing that the past couple of years because I think they want people to get to know the queens a little bit better.

No, I love it. I love the future drama coming up. I'm also obsessed with the pit Stop now and where they recap the show.

I mean, I just can't get enough. My life is just.

SVU and drag Race at this point, I really am not. I haven't even watched Euphoria yet.

I don't.

I'm just fully sv drag Race. And yesterday Bob the drag Queen just said the name Jada Essence Hall and I burst into tears.

I saw you cheat about that.

I was like, please, everything okay over there?

No, I just fully started crying at just the existence of Jada.

It was just really emotional.

I just love her so much.

She's great. Are you liking the season?

Loving it? I think there's so many good queens and it's really creative how they did the first couple episodes and I'm loving it.

Did you see the meme where it says like it's RuPaul she goes welcome to the Stanford Prison Experiment, which I thought was a funny, mean because she did toy with their emotions floating doc.

Yeah, I'm excited to see what happens next week.

And everyone seems to have a favorite. Everyone loves Simone and I love you know.

It's like I love Simone, I love got Mic, and I love Candy Muse a lot as well. Candy Muse is not going to win, and you know it. I I can only love the person that wins.

I just think she's fun.

No, this is like winners only get the hell out of.

We also do have another shout out to our producer Hannah.

Oh my god, Hannah. Hannah had a moment this week.

Who scoured Capital storming photos for twelve hours to find a photo of a QAnon person that she knows, not personally, you know, I don't know, she's not friends with this person, to find a photo of her and report her to the FBI. So that is some amazing event stigative.

Reporting helping put away one Capital storming crazy person at a time. Thank you, well, yeah you.

And the photo of her was very fucked up and she was holding a sign that said Kyle Rittenhouse did nothing wrong. So I hope the FBI fucking knocks on her door storms it. I actually love all the famous people being outed because it's that's what they talk about with the entitled like they didn't think anything was gonna happen. Like a US Olympic swimmer wore his US Olympics sweat like jacket. He wore an official Olympics jacket to storm the Capitol, like only ten people have that jacket, dude,

Like people like all Sniggy's gone full. Siggy's gone full Q She's she's off the desk end. But people are reporting her to the FBI because they're like, we know her. Like people just truly were wearing things with their.

Name on it. I mean, it's it's real. It's a pleasure. I wish I had a Bingo card of arrests, but that would be fun, all right, So let's just get down to it. Today's episode is really fun. We're going to be doing I mean fun and fucked up as usual. We're going to be doing a credo, which is based on the Nexium cult. And I just wanted to mention that when we recorded this, I was in the middle of watching the Vow. Now I have obviously finished the Vow.

But the word comes from the verb to believe, so I think it means to believe in something wholeheartedly and like fully. So that's very interesting when you find out what this episode is about. So let's get into the episode. Okay, so exciting, a little switcheroo freaky Friday action.

I'm doing the episode, which is thrilling.

We have a later episode, season twenty, episode five, Acredo Yes kind of Timely is based on you know, the vow, which was really popular. So this episode opens up with our Queen Bee, Olivia Benson, so busy, a lieutenant, a baby, and she's working.

Out trying to stay snatched.

I cannot believe this bitch found time to work out with a hot trainer hat as hell. Yeah, really muscular dude. They have flirty energy. I hope he becomes the love interest. But she's like proving she's like I'll run to my

Is that rude?

No, I think because I think a lot of the times they try to get people that don't look like actors, but then when they do something that is specifically about beautiful people, they're like, okay, bring in like the super hot actresses. It just it it changed everything for me, or like, wow, these are the hot so you know,

I wrote it down somewhere.

I think it's Lydia Leilah Lia, Lyla, Lyla.

It's a dumb name.

I feel like fifteen years ago, that's what people name their children to be unique and now whatever.

So Lilah Lilah. Yeah, okay, So we.

Have Lilah, and then there's a girl with like darker lipstick and liner and like her roots are showing, so we could tell that she's troubled and this trying because of her darker room, you know what I mean, everyone's put together.

And then we have a little rough looking girl but still pretty.

She's still pretty, but she's not quite as polished looking as the rest of them. Hats off to the wardrobe department. And here in makeup, they knew how to just subtly make it be like she's trying. Yeah, it's amazing. And then we you know, she's a punk punk energy.

We figure out she had an abusive relationship and this group of women helped her achieve her dreams and get out of this relationship and she's stronger than ever. And then they're outside and a woman with a fashion hat and a peasant top comes out very I mean probably I think, the prettiest of them all, and you know, she's like.

Let's do whatever. Lila comes out.

Everyone wants to do lunch, and this girl's like, I gotta go, go, go, I'm not doing lunch with any of you. And then we see the rugged girl in her beautiful loft in Manhattan and she is on a lane.

I truly saw it. It was like, what the hell? Like, who is this girl? Like she has like a massive soho apartment. It's nice, beautiful tub, beautiful tub.

Yes, yeah, because so she's on the phone screaming to somebody leave me alone, stop calling me, get.

Off my back.

So it's like, is it this cult? Is it the ex boyfriend? Are these all red herrings? Is it another person? Svu loves to play games with us, But we see her screaming, and then it cuts to Benson talking about how many steps she was walked in the day. So that's a nice cut too. She has over twelve thousand steps.

Bragging Benson just being one of those fitbit braggers.

Oh and then Rawlins.

I mean, I hope one day I don't hate Rawlins as much as I'm sad that you hate Rolands so much. I don't, like, I'm not obsessed with Rowlands like I'm with Benson, but I don't mind her.

Besides, it's Danny. She might be my least favorite.

Oh, Amorrow, you mean oh wait.

No, Danny Beck. She was my least least favorite Rollin's. I don't know. I hope I grow out of my Rolins hate. But she's pregnant. She's hiding it, and she wants to see the NIXT game with the boys. But then there's like work to do, and she's like, I just hate this idea of like I want to work, and it's like, just be pregnant, just do some paperwork.

That's Olivia says. She goes, you want to move furniture. I don't.

I just I don't understand it. She's like, take a break. So whatever she Rollins is just trying too hard.

I just hate her.

Okay, Okay, I'll move on. I'll move on.

So whatever, Okay. So there's a call Raye Palm a side downtown. Benson looks amazing in a white T shirt, like she I love this white T shirt. It's this nice sheer with a pocket. I'm just into it. And her hair is in a banana clip, which is the most realistic thing about what's happening.

She always looks too good, and it's like, yes, this bitch.

Wears a banana clip sometimes with like she know she has the front tendrils of her hair, some front bangs, and then this is tough.

We get to the crime scene. It is bloody.

It's this girl, you know, roots and she's it's bloody. Yeah, and Rollins has topuke. Okay, she should have just gone to the fucking nixt game. I'm like, but whatever, she needs to puke. And then the guy cop is like, she gonna be okay, and it's like she's fucking press now I'm defending Rollins.

Whatever.

It's a very bloody crime scene and yeah whatever, the credits are rolling. So then Finn Careesy Rollins. Everyone left the Knicks game. So I guess the game wasn't too good.

You know, you never get a day off on us for you.

And then what we see is they cut a piece of flesh from underneath.

Like her ribcage.

Basically, yeah, I don't know what body part I was gonna say, I was like underneath somewhere, but yeah, so there's a piece of flesh, and to me, it's like, even if you were trying to hide some and now that's just brought us more attention to this thing. At least cut up a bunch of skin floor flesh pieces.

Like yeah, that's a good point.

I'll quote doctor Michael Batt until the cows come home. You know, killers usually leave something or take something, and with this flesh, it's both they took it and more clues. Richard and Marge own the house. That's what we learn. I don't know who these people are. It's oh, it's parents.

Yeah, they're the parents of Abby, someone named Abby. Yes, because we still don't know the name of the main girl who has just been murdered. We don't know her name now. Yeah, yeah, it's not just my horrible note taking and paying attention skills.

Did I pause this episode a lot to play text twist because I'm fully addicted.

Yes, I don't know.

Wait, can I say something about when I put pause this episode? So I have Hulu and I and I don't pay for the ad, I still get ads. Okay, I understand I should just like cough up two more dollars a month, but I can't. So when you pause on Hulu sometimes they give you a print ad over what you're watching. So literally, this girl is on the slab and they're about to identify her, these two parents

So this is one of the best SVU moments. The it's not their daughter. Yeah, you barely ever see that. You barely see it. It's great acting. It's a great moment of relief, and it's just awesome to see the parents be like, no, our daughter is alive. We figure out that their daughter is actually on a movie shoot and she's also part of this weird collective of women. And she let her friend with the roots stay at her apartment while she's shooting this movie or TV show.

It's a full handmaid's tail, like spoof this show, not spoof.

But like brick but called scarlet.

Yeah, it looks like a costume you would get at party city.

It can't be an official exactly. It would be like religious wife or dystopian future wife or something like that that's like what the costume would be called. I once got I was Linda from Bob's Burger's and it was burger wife. Supportive burger wife was the name of my costume. Supportive burger wife. Wait for what to play Linda from Bob's burger Oh my god, supportive Burgerway you do. Look you have the energy of a supportive burger wife.

So, so we find out the girl's name that's dead, and her name is Vicky Parson and she broke up with her boyfriend, stayed at this girl's place. She doesn't really have parents, but she had been feeling better lately after this group. So a Credo is the name of the group, and Benson says, well, hopefully she's opened up to this female empowerment.

Group because she's also given them a ton of money. She's written them like ten checks. Wow, yeah, okay, and then Rollins So Rollins is now they're walking up to this mansion to investigate if this group knows any information to help them find the killer, and Rollins goes, who knew there was this much money?

And insecurity?

Literally everybody knows makeup, plastic surgery, dieting, all billion dollar Industries. Rollins again, you prove what a fucking idiot you truly are. O, don't I wrote facts from Rollins?

No, because I don't hate her the way you do nobody.

But if she was a guest on our show one day, hopefully we'd love to get all.

The cast members. I don't know what I would do.

I'd be like, are you annoyed with Rollin's bad decision making?

Too?

How is this bitch a cop? She doesn't know insecurity makes money?

Like that's so true, she's getting her hairs.

I like it.

I didn't think of that, you know what I mean?

Right?

Do you wear makeup? Do you do anything that is targeted towards women? So we're talking to the fashion hat hot girl. She's wearing a studded a club or outfit in the middle of the afternoon for tea. There is a hot man in the middle and he's surrounded by wa like leading a meeting. He's leading this meeting. He's like, you're undeserving.

I'm gonna find your truth, be feeling better, blah blah blah.

I don't have bullshit. Okay, it's bullshit.

And then he tries to read Rollin's and is like, who put that baby in your belly? And that sickens me. Yeah, that's a freak if you say baby. And I don't know if it's the literation or what, but it creeps.

Me out or his face also is just like lit up when he saw she was pregnant in a way that was so creepy. Like I had a couple of guys like like talk to me like that when I was pregnant.

It's very freaky.

There are some men that are truly very turned on by pregnancy.

I know one person that he wants to fuck pregnant people. So the guy is like, who hurt you?

Rollin?

No one loves you, you bet you and your bastard baby, and Rollins is.

Like, all right, I don't care, but where NYPD, shut your mouth, come and talk to us. So the main woman, Lila, she and the old man are like, oh no, what happened? And their acting is good. They're like, oh, poor Vicky, and they give name of the ex. His name is Brad Simon. He's a line cook at Lucky Duck and he's fucking hot, which.

Of course Lyla knows. Oh her ex Brad Simon. He's a line cook at Lucky Duck. Like, if you asked me your ex, I'd be like, I I know it's this comic in Chicago, and I know.

He was from seven years ago. It's different that, Like, if I talked about an abusive.

Posture, I guess I would know who that was where they worked.

Yeah, yeah, you're right.

It would be psychotic if I was talking about a seven year breakup Kara.

He won't leave me alone.

Yeah, it's just like so old. But he called her a slut bag.

And posted all these photos of her online, like naked photos, and he just.

Yeah, but like here's the thing.

He literally posts like beautiful, sexy, flattering photos of her and then is like, now everyone's gonna know what a slutbag you are. And I'm like, I guess, Like this is as bad as it can get. With revenge porn on network TV, you know they can't like also should not.

Be using the term revenge porn.

Why Katie Hill the canvast for her?

I love her?

Yeah, so she wrote a piece for like Marie Clara Cosmo or something like that, and she goes first, revenge makes it seem like someone deserved it, and this is revenge. It's like you did something, and porn implies it's a consensual thing that happened for consumption and you got paid for it, and so.

Both those words are wrong. Are wrong.

Yeah, no one deserves to get their shit leaked and know these people did not get paid for any that.

That's what it's called. So what would you call it?

Well, it's because men and the patriarch Aaron charge. The article said more should I have looked into it yet? But it's basically it's a crime. It's what it is, and it's not revenge porn. And we'll I don't know, look, we'll put it, we'll talk about it.

So we're at Brad's apartment.

Yeah, he's fucking hot, and he was like cutting a piece of salmon. It was just like but he's in the precinct. Really quickly he asks for.

So he's denying.

He's like what, I don't know, and then as soon as he sees the crime scene photos, he asks for a lawyer, which is really smart because I think because he saw the chunk of skin, he knew what had to do with this organization and he got scared. I don't think it's him like in that moment, I'm like, I don't I knew.

It wasn't him. I just so whatever. He asks for a lawyer really quick. That's shut down.

So then we cut to the apartment and Finn and Careesi are looking for evidence and Finn finds a knife in the dishwasher and acts like that's suspicious and he found the best evidence in the world. But that's not suspicious to me. A knife and a dishwasher seems totally fine. But that's why they're detectives and I am not, and I'm just judging them.

They do find.

Blood on the shoes, blood on the jeans, and Finn great advice. He goes, guy would be off the hook if he did some laundry, So if you're gonna murder, you know, clean the blood up. So they find it's Vicki's blood. And then they also find security video from two blocks away from Vicky's home, and it's the woman in the fashion hat from the cult and her and this boyfriend are canoodling and they leave together and in the.

Video you see that she has the mark.

Yes, this is amazing security footage, and so she has this base. It is color, it is hi res, it is able to be zoomed in on. It is really good security footage where you can see that she has like a brand underneath her on her ribcage.

So then they go terrogate the hot chick and she starts crying and she goes, I had no idea was him. They're like, you don't know Vicki's ex. I thought you're a family or all friends, and she goes, no, I hurt. She talks about him all the time. I didn't realize it was him. And then she talks about her number one problem and why she joined this cult and it's

And it's like, what is happening. I just like don't understand any of this.

But basically, her goal of the evening was to find a man and be like, I'm gonna fuck you, and so she did that with this guy.

She says she didn't know.

So the brand starts talking and immediately Lydia and the man walk out like they just had a timer. Like as soon as the brand Sila and Arlow arlow okay, So Lela and Arlow come out right as the brand is chatting chatted about and they said that the brand was actually Vicky's idea and they fucking loved it and that's why.

They Delilah shows that she has it too.

Yes, So when the detectives walk away, there is like a half a second of like Arlow touching this fashion hat girl's face and the fashion hat girl smiling at him. So that to me was a it was like a quick second, but I noticed that. So then Lydia starts talking about how Arlow's a feminist and he reads books, and it's like.

All right, Arlow also is taking uh, he's taking one of them, I think maybe CARIESI through the house and there's just like a sketchy fucking room of sheetless mattresses, like a full, huge room that just has.

Mattresses on the ground.

I miss that. And he's like, you never know when someone's gonna stay over. I'm like, on a nasty mattress on the ground at your mansion? What the fuck is this place?

Get a guest room.

Yeah, And then Lydia to Ben's was like, no, Benson goes, I run my unit and she goes and who runs you and it's like, fuck you. The amount of people Olivia Benson has helped and changed their lives around and has made huge impact on putting away court like fuck you trying to tell her that she needs to be more confident in her life or she's missing something, like you wish you could have accomplished what Benson has.

Can. I also point out that they do some research on Arlow and they're like, oh, he graduated with xyz degree from Cambridge, badminton player, Like they talk about him playing badminton like that and like a hot thing or something.

And being a monk somewhere, and it's like you're either a rich kid or you're lying. Either way, not impressive. So we learn Lydia worked at like a financie lie whatever. They know, they fucking know she worked in finance. Arlow helps her quit and then she had her own firm. She only hires women. I mean, I just don't care about these people. Arlow is again harassing.

Rollins, being like you have sexualblems? Now he says that most the women that come to him have sexual problems and that he helps them with their sexual problems.

So he what a kind guy?

Yeah, what a kind guy, and he also keeps shaming Rollins for not having a dad for the like with this baby, and it's like, is the season one or season twenty? It's the two thousands baby, Like people are having babes without dads, Like, how is this a point of shame? I'm more impressed with women having babies without men.

Sorry Cara, but.

Yeah, I did it the easy way with a partner. Oh but she keeps saying that the dad is an architect. But it's a lie, isn't it like the secret FBI redheaded guy from Grounded for Life? Wait, what, who's Rollin's baby daddy? Her first baby daddy?

Is that Irish guy fid Oh?

He has two kids?

This is her second kid. I forgot.

I didn't know that her second kid. She had a first baby in twenty fifteen. She had a second baby in twenty eighteen. And the reason I know this is because I fucking looked it up because I noticed that Rollins was getting like was huge this episode. And they're acting like she's four months pregnant, Like they're acting like she's just at the point where she should tell one pp she's like seven months pregnant because she had her baby in October.

This episode aired in November.

They record, they take pretty close to when they air, So I think she's like six months six or seven months pregnant in this So was she real life pregnant times? Yeah, they wrote them into the thing. And she has boys in real life, but she has girls on the show. So the dad of this baby is the doctor who's also been in a lot of stuff. But he's not a redhead. He's like a doctor. I've seen him and stuff. I can look it up. The first dad is Declan.

The yeah father is the doctor from who's also the lead in Scandal, one of the lads.

Oh, he's in Scandal.

Okay, this is insane.

I feel like I'm a super fan and had no idea this was her second pregnancy. I feel like I might be lying to everybody thank you for helping me figure this Rollins baby situation.

No, I was obsessed myself. Now I feel bad for Rollins. I'm like, now, you're a single mother of two kids and a detective.

Different.

Maybe they don't hate you, you know, and your sister and mom fucking suck.

Yeah, her sister, don't even get me.

Her boss is a rapist.

She's addicted to Gambling's just too much.

It's just too much. So suddenly we cut some Marie Basso's house. This is probably like a five million dollar place in New York. I'd say five to seven million. And this is the co founder of this cult, an ex wife of Arlow. And you know, she says he's smart, empathetic and charming, but she's not surprised by any of this, and she has nothing to do with this club anymore.

So I'm late to river yoga.

Excuse me. That's what I did the most.

I would take a train from Crown Heights every morning to the Hudson River and I would take out Dori yoga. So she's like, listen, I'm done talking to the cops and then this is perfect s for you. The women yoga are mad because there's some man in the bushes taking photos.

The cops go talk to him.

Lucky for them, it's this guy whose wife is the fashion hat girl, the like peasant top girl.

So her name is Gina. Finally, eight pages in.

We find out her found equals Gina.

So Gina's husband is like, I'm trying to get to the bottom of this fucking cult. They took my money, they took the deed to my house. She's fucking this guy fucking take my camera. Take all the evidence you need. And so they just found a gold mine, you know, they found a bunch of like a camera with all of this evidence.

There's pictures of like a bunch of the girls in this group like stepping on VICKI like kicking her in the head or.

Something, Yes, stepping on our neck, and it's called starting over.

This is what you do for the cult. And she's a surf.

And Gina says, Vicky was my surf.

I was her lord. That's what she says.

So then Rollins goes crazy. Pregnant.

Rollins rushes into the squad room squad interrogation, gets the chair out of Gina, pushes Gina to the ground and starts stepping on Gina, which I think, you know, it's a little stablerish. This is not gonna work.

Pregnancy hormones are no joke, man, and she's just like okay.

So she finally confesses she put the blood on the ex boyfriend. She was told to by her lord that she was supposed to try to fuck this guy and then put blood all over his.

Clothes because Vicky was going to was thinking about leaving the cult.

Yeah, she was gonna betray r Low, so they had to fucking kill her. So this is my favorite art of SVU where suddenly the detective or the lawyer has a personal connection. You know, Cabot has a not cabotfriend, schizophrenic. Yeah, we find out that the brand means at his mercy and you have to give up everything. So they don't know how to connect everyone. And then they figure out that Lila wears a fitness tracker, and on Lilah's fitness

So they tracked the I can't believe you can even find that that you can subpoena that information of a fitbit tracker.

They're like, it's in the cloud because when the FBI contacted me about like Twitter stuff because someone threatened to bomb my house, they couldn't find the tweets because they were deleted because of all the laws. Like, I can't imagine the government and Apple being like, sure, we'll give you someone's fitness track or heart information, and that that would be enough evidence in court to put someone away. I just don't believe it. So whatever heart ray equals murder.

I don't think she's gonna like it's not like immunity, but she's gonna get like a sense introduction.

I'm sure.

Yeah.

So then Claudia, who's the bitch that owns the mansion and stuff, and she is the lawyer, and Benson gives another hard course speech. I feel like this was just an episode to get like Benson and Emmy honestly a lot of fucking lessons and monologues. And she gives a hardcore speech about like you trick women, you build them up, they are vulnerable with you, and then you use their vulnerability to destroy them, and Arle claps he's condescending as fuck.

Well, because you could tell when Benson's making your speech that Claudia is affected like that. She's kind of like, oh wait, something like some of what you're saying is really ringing true, Like Benson's able to like deprogram a cult victim in like two seconds.

Yes, she is incredible, the best detective of the land. And and then Benson complains about her kid and goes, I didn't know there were stubborn sixes phase, And it's like kids are always suck.

Pick an age, they suck. No I okay, I have a kid. I love my kid. Noah is the worst. I hate Noah.

I'm sorry.

If you listen to this podcast, you gotta be on the Noah hate train. Noah the taught like Noah the five year old sucks. I loved him when he was a baby. Okay. Also, there's an RBG mug on Benson's desk. Did you see it?

I did not pick ups to RBG. You know that's so wild you mention that. But Noah has no choice. He was like adopted from a drug den. His grandma tried to steal him. He almost got hit by a car. There was false accusations.

Of his bomb beating, but he's so annoying. He's just like, no, I'm not doing it. And it's like, do you know what Benson has given up for you? Yeah, that's what I want to say to my baby too. I'm like, I used to be thin.

So Claudia basically posted bay. Oh, so he posts bail. Can you just finish this episode? Yeah, I'm like done, Yeah, it's fine to the end.

Look, he basically posts bail, but then he tries to flee. Claudia calls in a tip to the cops and says he's on his way to Westchester County Airport. They bust him right as he's about to board this jet because his ex wife Maria or whatever, the gorgeous woman this is xyfe forgot to fuel up the private jet. So they get him, so, you know, and then they stop him and he's let off in handcuffs.

So he's obviously going to get.

Busted for the actual like coercion of a crime or whatever he's guilty of. Plus trying to flee like he's going to get it, so you feel like it's happy. And then Rollins tells Benson, Hey, the dad of this baby's a cardiologist, and that's how the episode ends.

Yeah, I'm glad he got caught.

I'm glad it was a rich person problem that stopped him from fleeing, you know who forgets to fuel a pa jet And the ex wife was friendly still with Arlow.

So it's hard to escape a cult.

Yeah, and we're going to find out a hell of a lot more about that when we come back from our break because I've got all the details on the true crime that.

This is based on.

Be right back, Hi, guys, thanks for hanging in through the commercial. One quick thing we wanted to just address from the last part of the pod was we are not going to use the term revenge porter anymore, and there is a movement to start calling that non consensual photography.

So we're going to hop on behind that.

And if you want to read Katie Hill's opinion article, that will be in our show notes. Okay, Lisa, are you ready to fucking delve into the world of female wellness cults?

I'm so ready because this has been in the zeitgeist for like months now, and I've purposely not listened to any of it so I could be taught by you.

So I'm really excited.

This episode aired in October of twenty eighteen, and a year earlier is kind.

Of when the whole thing blew up.

They got on it pretty quickly because it is a complicated case, so they waited for some stuff to unfold and criminal charges to happen, and then they h So let me just get get into it, Okay. So this episode is based on a cult for sure that you've probably heard of called Nexium. It's spelled like with Roman numerals NXIVM, but it's pronounced nexium, which on the surface is just an MLM that offers like self help and personal development courses which they called ESP Executive Success Programs.

Hi, I'm just wondering if you wanted to reconnect.

And it's like because they want to sell you like some kind of wrap to make yourself thinner, some kind of tupperware and that one knives, cut vacuums with sell and dot and that kind of stuff. I'm almost like that's okay with me a little bit because I'm just like, oh, you see jewelry, you can look at how good it is. You can buy it if you want to buy it whatever.

Was just on the tip of my I was just about to say they're so evil. Yeah, and it puts people that are in desperate need in a more evil position because then they're ruining other.

People's lives because they have to.

It's just so fun. Yeah.

So Nextim was started by a guy named Keith Rinier and a woman named Nancy Salzman in nineteen ninety eight. Nancy was a psychiatric nurse and a trained practitioner of hypnotism. And neuro linguistic programming. So neural linguistic programming is a complete pseudoscience. You can look it up. There's like a full, huge long Wikipedia about it. But it's basically it's a lot of like just teaching people how to like say things to themselves to make the m self successful. It

I mean, I'm sure she was a nurse. Says she was a psychiatric nurse.

The neural linguistic If you look up neural linguistics, it says that it's a pseudoscience. Keith was an established con man. Prior to founding NECM, he had created other MLMs. One was a pyramid scheme which collapsed after signing up two hundred and fifty thousand people and bringing in more than thirty three million dollars a year. And he learned all of this from taking courses from you got it Amway.

If you've ever heard.

I was actually just about to interrupt you and say I lost a friend of Landmark. Yeah, and I was her friend that she brought, you know. That's like all she did group a weekend, twelve hour days and then on the third day you bring a sucker.

And I was that sucker.

But I was like, I'm not doing it, and she all her money went into it. I mean, she fucking loved Landmark and it twisted her brain and I couldn't even be around her anymore. She constantly was writing like it was wild and it was wild to be there, and everyone's like, just it's only five hundred dollars, It's only five hundred dollars, and I'm.

Like I'm fine.

So This was a huge thing in the early two thousands. This was like a very lucrative fad. Was like executive training, large group awareness training, stuff like that, like your work would do it, but then people would go on their own. It was like ways to realize your potential.

Also have to say, I knew, I know a couple of people that did just the first weekend of Landmark, got a lot out of it and never went back.

Sure, and I think the same is true of Nexium. Some people went to Nexium just took a couple of courses and were like, that was great, that's really helping me, like speak up more at work, It's helping me find joy in the every day blah blah blah. But then the people that got severely involved is where things went south.

So you took Nexxium courses, which you paid for.

There's rumors that they were seventy five hundred to eight thousand dollars per course, so not cheap. Yeah, you were the people rich joining this. A lot of the people were rich well because like a lot of them came from executive training programs and stuff. And then, like I said, you could either just take a couple of courses or you could start moving up the ranks. Now you're going to start to see how a lot of this resembles scientology.

It's so crazy. Before you say something, I think it's like, this is.

Why we're insane here, or I also thought about the raziniche the Wow Country Wild Country. Yeah, so that's funny. One of the articles I read was like, pause, wild wild Country. Here's something even crazy because when that was being aired is when the nexium stuff was all breaking.

I mean, I don't know about this yet. We'll see what crazier. But ground up beavers in the water supply can nexium beat that.

There's some crazy shit, but I don't know about that. So in the same way as scientology has you move up the bridge, nexium has you move up the stripe path. Everybody gets these sort of sashes that like you every time you move up a level you get this different color, and then stripes are like different things you get on your sash to like move higher and higher. Up are the girl scouts in MLM. Now I'm getting worried. Oh I don't think so they sell cookies for badges, that's true,

Okay, I know Vanguard is a word because of the MTV Vanguard Awards Vanguard and they gave it to Michael Jackson and Britney Spears.

Yeah yeah, yeah, So their photos are up during classes like they're very revered. They're very worshiped, like the Vanguard and the Prefects. So this is Keith and Nancy.

Okay.

So anyway, intensive classes were twelve hours a day for sixteen days, and Keith claimed like he claimed to be a scientist, so he called this teaching a technology. He's like, this is a technology to make you a better person. It's about making you a better person, making you someone that can help the world become a better place, making you more ethical. Like your fears are you not? Are holding you back? And like you worrying about yourself is

You should watch it.

It's very informative on this whole thing, and I'm not going to be able to recap a nine part series in twenty minutes, but I'm doing my best. Every time Keith is speaking, he's like lying back on a couch surrounded by women, looking like a total nasty schlub. He's got long hair, like not a super wild Wall Country beard, but like just like an unkempt beard, and he's not attractive to me, but tell that to the women in

Talking, confusing me.

It's like you're saying it's to be less selfish, and yeah, it's for executives trying to make more money and speak at work, So like, I don't none of that really makes sense.

Well, they're kind of smart the way they did it because they started in ninety eight and they did not get busted until twenty seventeen, so they rent for almost twenty years, like just building and building slowly and slowly in Albany, New York.

Oh yeah, I saw a tweet that was like, we should have known something was suspicious getting people to move to Albany.

Yeah, all these hot people moving to Albany. Something's up. So he would do this thing where he would get a lot of patents, like he would patent his technology. He would like try to patent parts of what he was teaching. And I guess the US Patent Office will truly give a patent to anyone. And there's people call patent trolls. And guess who was another patent troll? L Ron Hubbard, the creator of scientology. Like they thought that it would make you more substantial, like person that the

So yeah, Shark Tank, it's one of the most important things. They're always like patent pending.

You know, it's.

Usually patten on your special sponge or whatever, but not like this bullshit technology about how to get over your parents being mean to you or whatever.

It's just none of it's real.

So they preyed upon people that were obviously wealthy if they could afford the classes. But the people were also extremely attractive, like everybody in this video, and you can see in the footage from the nineties and the early two thousands they're not that hot. Starting in like the twenty tens, they're hot like they obviously were. Like this is the way you convince people to get into groups like this is show them all these beautiful people loving

But at least with the gross hippie cults, there's drugs, they're set, and there's party. There's like this is not that mental expansion and LSD.

There's like something fun about this. I don't. Yeah.

Well, so one of his big things is called the practice of EM and like people would like love for Keith to give them an EM, which stands for exploration

It's wild.

So this group grew like kind of quietly until two thousand and three, and then they started luring in more high profile people, like they got a former surgeon general, an Enron executive, the daughter of the former president of Mexico.

They claim Richard Branson, but he denies it. The CEO of like.

Virgin I don't think he would go in there. He already has his own islands. Yeah, that's true.

What gets you can't find more joy in your life than your own island.

Like I don't understand, you know, he's like, what's it called. It's like skydiving from hot air balloons and Fiji Like I don't understand.

I don't buy that. But I love a president's daughter, going, yeah, Mexican president's daughter. Like all these actresses like Grace Park, Nikki Klein, the heir of Seagrams. This man, Edgar Bronfman Senior went to one and his daughter's claireence Aero Bramfman are very important characters. They're the heiresses to the Seagram fortune. Or is this an active group? Like are people still in it? Well, I'll tell you, okay to it, okay, okay.

It's like if they're telling you to not hang out with their family or kids or friends or husband, that's a cult.

Yeah.

In two thousand and three, Kristin Snyder, a thirty five year old environmental consult disappeared after an Nexium session in Alaska. Her body was never found, but her truck was parked on the shore of a bay with a note in it that said I was brainwashed and my emotional center of the brain was killed slash turned off. Please contact my parents if you find me or this note. I am sorry. I didn't know I was already dead. Sketchy

Just tough because the terrain there, like there's just so many places to hide a body.

Yeah that's true.

Yeah, but Alaska also wasn't like a huge hub of this group, Like so they had big hubs in like Albany, Seattle at one point, Vancouver, and in Mexico and in Canada, I said Vancouver geography. Okay. One former member set a medical doctor experiments at her and just would show her horrible murders and rapes while recording her.

Eeg.

She was like, not told you was going to be seeing any of this and showed her like brutal, brutal stuff. So this Forbes article kind of hit them a little bit. Well, it didn't actually hit them, as was two thousands Free. They didn't get caught from three and twenty ten. There are big exposees that come out in really reputable magazines, like I think the twenty ten one was Vanity Fair, and like they just keep going like nobody is paying attention.

See some family girls spent all of their money helping this raggedy aid down.

So much money, but so one hundred and fifty might not have been all of it, but they spent a ton of it helping this grifter. Essentially, they got the Dalai Lama involved, Like the Dalai Lama did visits to Albany, and in the vow they show that one time he won't come to Albany because he hears about how sketchy Keith is. So Keith goes to the Dalai Lama like flies private to the Dalai Lama with the Brompfin sisters to be like, I'm good like all these people are lying about.

This is the thing about the Dalai Lama.

I always you know, obviously you love a monk like I'm a fan of La and you have a huge fan.

And then a couple of years ago he said that if a woman were to take over for him, she needs to be hot. Ugly women cannot be the Dalai Lama. And it was just like even the Dalai Lama, this so called most enlightened human ever, kindness, spirit like joy to everyone is still just like no ugliest please.

So to me, it just proves that it is all men.

There is no one said it is all men, and there's no one.

That's actually enlightened because yeah, to NA see past that that's wild. So after that, I've kind of I unfollowed him on Instagram now.

I but I just I'm like, everyone's a scam.

How is the How can we say Nexium is a fraud but not the Dalai Lama.

Who knows? Hey, that's true?

Okay, So let me So Randy's into all these celebs and people showing up on private jets.

I just think there's more to the Dalai Lama.

You're right, I think we should start a Dalai Lama Exposity podcast offshoot.

So the fact that even met with him, because but there's photos, is their photos of them together, Yeah so he will yeah fuck it.

Yeah.

So okay, so let me explain what exactly happened that got them in trouble. So Nexium is the is the main umbrella group. Under Nexium, there are like offshoot groups that are like more specific. So there's one called the Society of Protectors that's aimed at men. There's another one

So this was like the highest level of this cult or just like the most it's just.

Secret and it was just women.

So it was like all these women thinking that this would be this super cool. Uh, but women didn't start it, Keith. It was Keith's idea. You know, Like obviously Keith came up with this idea. It's about excluding others, right, because not every woman is in it. And then later when you find out that they're getting branded, not every woman who's in it is getting branded. So I don't know how they're deciding who gets branded and who's in it for life and whatever. So it is exclusionary. So Keith

If this is her biggest credit, let's her biggest.

Credit is Naxiom. But look, I looked up her Instagram is still lives. She hasn't used it in two years since she got arrested, but she had one hundred and four thousand followers. People are interested in Ali Mack. So she is one of the founders of DOS with Keith. He is the grand master. She is his slave, Okay, and then what she does is she picked some slaves

And what do they make Why do you need slaves? Okay?

Because it's about breaking people down mentally so that they will be like pliable and loyal to you.

That's like what it's completely about.

So is this Ali Mack person? Is she a victim of this guy? Or is she an evil?

It's a great question. That's a great fucking question because people say, why should she be treated any differently than the other victims? But I think it was because she helped create this. But I think he's still influenced her. So that is a great question. That is the question, that is the moral question of this whole thing. It's like, can we punish her when she was just as under his spell as everyone else? You know?

Has she done any interviews or any neuvelance?

No?

No, no, because she's still waiting to be sentenced.

So let me just say, Rick Ross, is this called expert great name, well, a completely different expert, white man who is not Rick Ross. He calls Alison Mack the tom cruise of Nexium. Okay, so she's kind of the face of it. She's very pretty, she's very personable. She brought in tons and tons of people into this. She constantly is trying to recruit famous people. I saw what

I think Beverly Mitchell feels lucky to be included in this group of powerful actresses.

She wrote to Kelly Clarkson, I heard you're a Smallville fan. I'm a huge fan of yours. Like DM me let's connect like such a classic MLM message totally. So recruitment is huge, Like it's the same, it's very similar to scientology and that it's a lifetime vow of obedience. You

You know, it's so easy to be like these fucking idiots, but it's like what if I get tricked?

You know, it's like you don't want right. This cult is also insanely on the phone, Like so much of it is on the phone. They're using WhatsApp. I think because it's encrypted. There's a thing with your master. If your master says sends you a question mark, you have to write ready master or RM within sixty seconds or you get in trouble, like you have to always be Those are called like readiness checks.

I think swimming laps in a pool.

You probably can't, like you literally have to like have it. Maybe you could write your master and say, may I have permission to swim laps in a pool for twenty minutes?

I won't be able to respond to your dad.

Like maybe there's something like that, But there's all this stuff going on over text. You have to write good morning Master to your morning in the morning there may I eat? Now, Master, may I pee? Part of being in DOSS was being thin, so they would constantly tell you, like, if you lose weight, go out like Teddy Mellencamps grow. Honestly, I thought about it because the one girl's on a five hundred a day calorie thing, and I was like,

Well, because I'm also thinking wondering if these women, some of them are like into BDSM or like having a slave masters sexual thing and don't know how to like do it in their own way, and this brought it, Like, I wonder.

I don't know if it's this about that friendship it's about it's supposed to be about friendship and making you stronger. So they're like, this is about getting through pain, is about strength. Like so when one of the women, Sarah Edmondson, who has a book actually about her whole experience on this, like she is like the main character in the vow,

Actually I watch a Hulu series on cults and I did watch an hour on this and I think it's this woman. But one of them I was talking about the branding process and being held down and it just seems really horrific.

Yeah, no, it is horrible.

Like they said that you could just like smell burning flesh.

I wonder whether they're doing post COVID.

Yeah, they're not going to survive coronavirus.

Okay, hold on, are they jealous of each other when they're all fucking him?

Are they competed?

They're not talking to each other about that kind of thing, And I think they're like, my closeness with Keith is like our is like our own thing. And like in the past, he's had like three girlfriends that have like known about each other, like three like living girlfriends, and they all know about each other, but he does move on to younger models all the time. He had one girlfriend in this organization who was very high up in jenness and she died of cancer and afterwards three hundred

If it were Abraham Lincoln's or Bill Gates's initials, no one would care.

He thinks that's his delusion of grand or that he thinks he's that like high up as these people. So in twenty seventeen, they gather all these like whistleblowers finally get together and this huge article comes out in the New York Times, which honestly, I was going to say.

I also wonder if it's like Comedians with Louis, if people are like, well, when can he go back to work?

I mean, has he not suffered enough?

Right?

So the article came out Hervy and just like scientology, they have like deep pockets. They try to fuck with you if you come for them. But it's crazy because it's like this woman Sarah is talking about how her best friend Lauren like held her down and like and like convinced her to do dass in the first place, and then she found out later that Lauren had been sleeping with Keith for like a decade and that he had kept promising her a baby and like that he was never going to give her, you.

Know, so did he always work condoms?

I don't know.

I wonder if there was just abortions on speed dial.

Yeah, it's going on, freaking knows. She took a stand. She took the stand as part of her plea deal Lauren Salesman and admitted to locking a woman in a room for two years as punishment, and that nexim women had to send nude pics to Keith where they are smiling, so they have to look like they're sending nudepics that they're like happy about.

Wait, they kept a woman in a room for two.

Years and they threatened her with deportation. Oh my god, it's like fully psychotic. So because of this New York Times article, the New York Attorney General got like because people had gone to the authorities before, and the authorities were just like, sorry, you guys consented to getting branded,

I wonder if her daughter was fucking Keith.

Yeah, it was, that's the one who she was. He was fucking for ten years and kept promising a baby. So her own daughter was having sex with Keith for a decade.

And it is Nancy on tried? Did she is?

She She pleaded guilty to racketeering and I cannot find her sentence. I mean, what is racketeering. Even mean, it's like she broke into email all accounts and tried to erase things when they were having lawsuits filed against them. I wonder who she's not even getting involved in like that,

But I mean, she seems like the brain's behind all of it. And Keith is also maybe her playtoy, because how did she just get to think.

Of But I'm just just so little information about her, Like there's just all these articles are about Keith. Ali Mack, the Bromptman sister is like nothing is about Nancy.

I stare Nancy.

Nancy and Keith met because Nancy visited his wholesale supplement club seeking a remedy for her constant constipation.

That's how they met, and then it became fun. Oh yeah, he also claimed that his his methods could.

Cure diabetes, cure scoliosis.

This is a origin having constipation, and then fast forward you are the second in command of a cult. Yeah it's wild, but that had to be in. Maybe she's a victim too. I mean this is cults are wild. This is wild. The fucking's wild. The hot that gets

Of the people that as a joined you know, you like their parents. Everybody should really watch the VOW because I think you kind of get behind Sarah Edmundson's like thing, like she is like, I don't know how I allowed this to happen. I truly thought I was doing good things.

Pages of notes I did and read, you know, like the Wild Wild Country documentary came out twenty plus.

Years after this all happened two three years ago. With the exposure.

Yeah, this is like ongoing, so like I'm sure we're going to learn more and more.

So I'll end it on this. You ask me if it still exists.

There are a handful of loyal Nexian followers who go and dance outside of his jail in Brooklyn, sometimes out of Keith Rie Nier's jail cell. And I think they call him k Rose or something because those are his initials but not his name.

I also, I'm so curious at the fashion from nineteen ninety eight to its current member. My god, because I'm assuming late nineties early two thousands. It was the look that's like the jeans with the knee high boots and like, like I wanted, I'm just interested in the type of you.

Just you also just see the real change in physical attractiveness many yeah, like in the late nineties and two thousands stuff, and there are not the hot girls that you're seeing now. Like there's a girl who's the granddaughter of the Princess of Yugoslavia named India Oxenbourg who's like gorgeous and her mother is part of the New York Times expos trying to get her out, and she produced a Lifetime original movie about getting her daughter out of Nexium.

So our guest from this episode was very dreamy and charming. We never wanted it to end, and it is such a long interview. We did not let them go, so we had to cut a lot of it out. But we have to share with you.

This guy built the deck of his house that he was at. He cooks, he rock climbs, He is a like femine.

He is politically where we like him. He also lived on a sailboat and like we assumed below deck rich style, was there a chef and he's like, no, no, chef, My mom cooked and I read books and we were just on a boat.

They were like Swiss family Robinson on a boat for six years.

Yeah, so many hobbies, like so good, yeah, just doing everything. And every time we'd mentioned something, he'd be like, I speak Russian, Oh yeah, I've been to Scotland.

Like truly, just a really.

Eclectic, well rounded, very nice, cool person. And professionally he's killing it as well.

Yeah, you guys have seen him on The Man in the High Castle, The Young Pope, Supernatural, Vampire Diaries.

He has a very very prolific.

IMDb and we were so excited to talk to cult leader Arlow himself. Sebastian Roche, do you know that you're in the hottest episode of Law and Order svum mine in the whole Sist episode?

Really?

Yes, There's never been an episode with so many beautiful Yeah.

Oh yes.

I felt like they really casted it like models and like gorgeous. Yes, and you, well, yeah, it's a hot episode.

Except I didn't. Didn't I shave my head for the episode. I didn't. I didn't really look like Keith Wenire.

No, well, we were going to bring that up with you. We were like, are you do you? Have you been watching the Vow? Are you following?

Helen started watching the Vow because it's a little depressing. You know, I'll be honest with you. You know what they did, I have some interesting stuff though.

Yes I'm not.

Going to name names, but you know, it's very interesting my kind of connection two. I mean, I don't have a connection to next him, but I you know, there were some people who knew who knew that person, who were trying to encourage me to go, Oh.

I'm sure. I mean it was so involved in the acting world that I'm sure, Like, you know, it's a kind of a small world.

I feel like i'd heard.

About it through you know, through different people. Yeah, who I shall.

Of course, truly a scoop.

I didn't imagine a minute in It's like while that you were trying to bring in the cult. Did you use anyone for inspiration to be this con man?

No?

I just used you know.

At first, I said, you know, hey, because I wanted to do it in you know, I wanted to be as close as I could to to Reneer, And they said, no, no, we want you to use your normal accent. So you know they oh, and so I did, which distanced it from from the sort of dreadful reality.

You know.

Well, yeah, and I don't want to, you know, make you embarrassed or anything. But you're better looking and have a better accent. So it's like you, Arlow makes more sense to me as someone that people would follow. Keith Ranieri is like this short weirdo that plays volleyball.

I mean, I'll be honest with you.

I never understand the desire to join a cult. I am so not that kind of person. Every time I've been asked to join a movement or you know, or a spiritual you know what they call a sort of spiritual.

What should I say?

Development kind of yes, I.

Always go, you know what, I'll find it myself, thank you.

I don't need to be, you know, in a room of twenty people crying about, you know, what they're going through.

So I know it sounds a bit harsh, but I've never.

Been a friends who are cult. It sucks.

Yeah, yeah, no, it does, and it's extremely dangerous and we see the result. You know, there are these people who are supposedly charismatic, but they're not. They're actually extremely good comment you know, right, and what do comment do They basically, you know, make you want to hear what you want to hear basically, you know, so that's how they managed to manipulate you with you know. I mean I looked at him and I was like, there's nothing

Center was his to Albany.

His center was in Albany.

And you know, I'm doing a lot of quote unquote because you know, we can make fun of it, but I always feel terrible for the victims. Yeah, it's a real crime to take people into a cult and then abuse them as they did, you know, it really is, and take advantage of their finances.

And you know, we definitely, we definitely respect the victims. I just like to make fun of him because I think he's like such a little joke. The most recent episode was like so packed with misogyny, like he was he was just like women, men will not let you be better than them, Like we just won't let you. I was like, this is I was about to like throw something at my television.

Funnily enough, you rarely see women being the leaders of cults because they know better. You know, it's always say good as a complex who needs to either get women or men or people or you know, but you rarely see women who are leaders of cults.

I mean you have followers.

The men it seems like they just want to have sex with their followers, that's right. I haven't heard of a cult where there's not a lot of sex.

That's pretty much it. It's dudes who just can't and who are like, how can I You know.

Well, so you know you've played this cult leader, You've played a Nazi, you played.

Some other assholes.

What do you think it is? What do you think it is?

What do you think that is?

What is it about you?

I don't know.

I think it takes a certain skill to play an asshole, for sure, you know, I think that, you know, assholes are very complex characters.

You know.

I played also this thousand year old vampire who was Oh, yes.

That's right. You've been in a couple of vampire things.

Yeah, so you know all these and I very often played the bad guy. Maybe it has to do with the voice, It has to do with the accent, of course, you know, even though you know there are tons of assholes who have an American accent. I think it just has to do with the circumstance. I mean, lately, I've been auditioning actually for a lot of kind.

Of characters and sort of oh more.

Yeah, we'll see what happens after side of Sebastian.

Another side of Sebastian.

Obviously we did a deep dive into your IMDb. You've been on Law and Order a couple of times, but this is your first SVU.

Yes, I've always I've always wanted to be in SVU. First of all, I love Mariska.

Who doesn't Who doesn't.

Then when I was on set, I was like, you are can I swear?

Yeah?

I was like, you are a fucking amazing And I kept saying how amazing she was because she truly is one of these.

She's the kind of woman I adore, you know, super.

Strong personality, funny, hard working, She's a boss, you know, in the best sense of the word.

You know, And you got lucky because you got to be an interrogation room.

I know. I was like, if I don't get my interrogation with Mariska, I'm out of here.

I couldn't, but you know, contractually, I couldn't, but really a wonderful woman, you know, who's spearheaded that show for so many years.

It's so fun that you wanted to be on a spe So were you a fan of the show or just being in New York for so long you wanted it.

It's funny because s for you has you know, at first, you know, I did Law and Order. That was the show to be on, you know, it was my actually my first TV gate.

Was Lawn Order.

Then my first game in the US TV gig in the US TV because I'd done a movie before, a couple of movies, so you.

Know, it was that. Then it switched.

Then s FU came along, right, s F You was the second one, right, and I did two helpings of Law and Order. I did one way back in ninety three where I played this heavy metal.

Rock star C Square Man. He was such an asshole. Man was a total asshole. And then I played this guy who had a problem with his temper. And then I always I always.

Wanted to be honest to you because you know, there was criminal intent and everything and everyone. Then Stu became a sort of you know, a writer passage for great actors.

As was Law and order prior and.

I always wanted to and I thought it's never going to happen, and then literally the offer came in and it was really wonderful.

I was.

I was really excited because you know, it's it's kind of a badge of honor.

Now a lot of.

Stars do it, and I felt actually really flattered to be brought on.

Well, it's interesting because I wanted to ask you about the audition process and Kara said, no, I was.

Very flattered, and you know, to get an offer, you know, it was really really wonderful. They treated me wonderfully, They were really great. It was a really wonderful experience.

And while stalking a little bit, we saw you did like over three hundred episodes of General.

Yes, wow, yeah, Yeah.

What's it like working on a set for that long doing so much of anything?

That was? That was really great?

Actually does that shoot in New York?

No? Shoots in La? Oh?

It shoots in La Okay?

Yeah, Because I was in New York at the time, and my agent says.

Oh, they're offering, they'd like to offer you sixty episodes or something like that on on gh On General Hospital. And I thought to myself, I don't know if I want to do that right now, and eventually I accepted, and I it was one of the best decisions I made in my life. First of all, it changed my I was living in New York, I was going through a hard time, you know, you know, things happened, going through a divorce and going through you know, a difficult time.

Much back. You're you're sort of stuck.

And I started basically improvising and finding rebooting my acting in that show and everyone, I mean, they couldn't.

Have been niceer.

The whole cast was so welcoming and I had a ball for two years. I was contracted for two years, and then I came back pretty much every year till two thousand, twenty fifteen for you know, little sprinkles of Baddy. And I was an uber bad guy, but who was like mister Who's like James bond On crack.

I call it, you know, basically on met now.

To update it to nowadays, and it was it was a lot of fun.

And doing so many episodes, you know, was was fun. You're always working, you're you know, people say it's difficult. I don't agree.

You know, you have twenty thirty pages of dialogue, but your brain gets used to it.

But I can't imagine you.

Start working really fast. Your brain, it gets accustomed to it. You know, it's it's I loved every second.

You know.

Some people say you shouldn't do soaps, and I would advise anyone to do it.

You've got you've know, you told us so much. This has been amazing. We really thank you for.

Your time and my pleasure. I am not I am actually a person that does not like to see people come back to SVU as different characters because it takes me out of it.

But I will say I'd love.

To see you back on in a few years, in a few years so that I forget about Arlow and that you're you're new. It could be a new person.

I'd loved it.

I'd love to come back. Maybe I could come back like yeah Russia.

Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's always Russian crimes on that show. There's like brighton beach stuff. There's all kinds of stuff. Yeah, all right, well, hopefully the casting people are listening to this and.

They can touch on you. Sebastia, thank you so much for talking to us.

Thank you. It was a pleasure, all right.

That was the thrilling. I mean, we talked to a cool cult leader. You guys didn't get to see him. We saw his face over zoom, and he's a he's as handsome as he is as a cult leader, honest for you. So what are we what's our post mortem on this episode about? Don't join a cult? Don't join a cult, you guys, even if you feel like you're in part of some organization that's really helping you come up with realize some things about yourself. Like that's great.

They want the deed dear house. Yeah, when they want money.

Go to therapy. I feel collateral. If they want collateral nude, you got to see yourself out.

Yeah, I just.

Go to therapy, you know, join a kickboxing class, like there's just better ways to self improve.

Right and location.

Yeah, if you have to leave the CLT, don't be that scared about your nudes getting out.

Everyone's got nudes. It's like, don't worry. So it's okay.

If you're not married to the dad of your baby like that wash. Wait, remember he was shaming rollins of like that baby and your belly. You don't know the daddy, And it's like, all right, stop, she knows the daddy.

Okay.

Brolin's two kids.

The first one is the daughter of a international like sort of spy man who's part of the government. And then the second one is a surgeon. We don't really know what happened with him.

I think he turned out to be he was a cheater. Listen.

I'm just saying, if you have a baby and you don't want the data in their life, that's fine. Fine, get money if you can't, yeah, okay.

And if a bunch of ladies are approaching you wearing peasant tops and offering you cucumber water, you need to run.

And and I learned this a lot in Russian television as well. Do not go to jail for a man, Yes, do not ever say that you committed a crime you did not commit that a man committed.

Yeah, that is that. Do not go to Joe for a man. It's gonna be on T shirts. We're gonna make it, I swear, like when Benson is just like, don't think about the last ten years, think about the next twenty. You're gonna rot in jail for this psychopath.

Yeah, and don't get don't charter planes for your ex.

Ask somebody a private jet. If you're trying to get out.

Of the country.

Make sure your private jet is always gassed. I mean, come on, like.

But yeah, if your x don't help your ex husband escape the law.

Oh yeah, she was so beautiful.

That was dumb.

Yeah, I think we learned a lot.

Yeah, it was definitely definitely a hot episode. All jokes.

If you're like a bus boy and the hottest woman on earth is trying to fuck you at a bar, she might be trying to plant blood on your path.

Oopsie. Yeah.

Yeah, and watch out men, if you're listening, watch out for ladies that have brands on them because something went wrong. But yeah, all jokes aside. I mean, the nexium thing is like very tragic. If you I recommend watching the Vow it is people will say it's long. It is a lot of episodes. I enjoyed all the episodes. I thought it was. It was a really deep dive. It's a little bit drawn out, but you know that's their filmmaking style. There's also, I believe, a CBC podcast about

I also don't remember the name, but there is a Hulu show that or I don't know. I Hulu originally made it, but it's on Hulu and there's one episode about Nexium.

But then it's all these different cults, like okay, what's that called again?

I don't know, but there I'm sure if you put something, but there's some Mormon stuff.

There's like a brotherhood and they take it.

So yeah, if you're just into cults, that's yea thing to check how I'll look into. Okay, now it is time for WWSPD What would Sister Peg Do? Where we point you guys to a resource that connects to today's episode, and today we want to get your attention on Rain. That's our ai n end two ends. Rain dot org is the website. RAIN is the nation's largest anti sexual violence organization. They do amazing work and you know, the members of these cults have definitely been taken advantage of

And next week's episode is going to be Porn Stars Requiem Season sixteen, episode five. And you can catch all episodes of SVU on Hulu or peacock or buy them. And if you enjoyed the pod, don't be shy, give us, you know some stock you can review us.

Just remember that if you actually liked it, remember that you're giving us a high number of stars, because nothing's worse than seeing obsessed with this pod.

One star. You obviously hit the wrong button.

This actually was a big issue for me when I moved to America because it's opposite in Russia of numbers and my parents would like be pissed, but I was actually doing okay.

Wait, you mean one star was like the best you can do?

Yeah, and so like I would get five stars or something or four and so I just remember them there being an issue where I had to explain how grating was different here. All right, well we're going to try to work Lisa through her star trauma. But meanwhile, we'll see you guys next week. Bye.

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