Hey Ma! I'm gonna hit you! What for? Do you know the difference between not believing in something and having a little respect for it? Hey Ma! Where are you? I'm gone. Hey Ma, where are you? I'm going. I'm going, Nick. I'm here! I'm going. Hey Ma!
Ma? If anything happens to me, Mikey did it! Hey! Take that back! Oh, are you still here? I thought you left. You son of a bitch! Take it back! Okay, Ma, take it back! You'll find out for yourself anyway.
Welcome everybody to the latest episode of Mat70s Movie Podcast. I'm your host, Michael H.
Cohen, joined by my co-host, Job Personer. Jonathan, how are you doing today? Not too bad. I'm not going to go out and say I'm the pigeon, but this week I was definitely not the statue.
Well, there you go. That's an accomplishment. Uh this was a long week. We're recording this actually on the weekend. We're both just kind of enjoying our our Saturday afternoon here. And we thought we'd sit down and spend uh an hour or maybe an hour and a half, who knows, talking about uh this great movie, Mikey and Nikki.
Uh before we get into it, I just want to remind uh listeners out there if you're enjoying the podcast, please take a moment to give us a thumbs up, to subscribe, maybe even buy us a cup of coffee. Uh, we really do appreciate your support. And if you just click that like button, if you uh subscribe, it just does so much to help us with the old algorithm on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, so more people will become aware of that 70s movie podcast.
I wanted to say again how great last week's guest Christina Newland was, how much I enjoyed uh talking to you and to her about Tulate Blackjack, a movie that I'll be honest, I didn't love, but after the conversation, I kind of liked a little bit more. Uh I'm not gonna deny it. And uh also I wanted to say if you haven't followed Christina on Twitter, you should. She's a great follower.
We had a little back and forth yesterday about some of our favorite Clint Eastwood films, and I'm a big Clint Eastwood fan. We actually haven't done one of his films yet, Jonathan. We're gonna need to do that soon. But I'm getting ahead of myself because Jonathan, have you seen anything good recently?
Actually, it's been a bit of a slow week for me on the movie front for several reasons, but I did mention last time, so I don't want to repeat that I've been revisiting a lot of the films of of one of my favorite directors, Olivier Essayas, and I I scored uh his third film, Paris Awakens, which was a d which was a pleasure to watch. But I was recently at the actual living theater uh here in Boston.
There's a production of Eureka Days, so which has one of my favorite actors in it, and it was wonderful and it's been getting great notices. So if you're in this area, I recommend checking it out.
You know, it's funny you mentioned this. I have not seen a film in the theater for it's been like weeks now. I've been so busy. I gotta go see a film in the theater soon. I miss that experience. And I've taken up the challenge of going deep on Olivier Assayas. As you have, you know, you keep mentioning how great he is. I've seen one of his films. I need to see more, so I'm beginning that process this week. I'm gonna start watching a whole bunch of his films.
It's only 70s films, so we're not gonna be able to talk about him on the podcast. But maybe we can find a 70s style film. Does he have one that you might suggest? Yeah, he is steeped in the 70s sensibility, that one. Yeah. All right. So we'll have to uh we'll come back to that. But for today, we are talking about the 1976 crime drama Mikey and Nikki. What's it about?
Uh small-time gangster named Nikki on the run from the mob, who spends a desperate night with his lifelong friend, Mikey, and chaos ensues. Uh, directed by Elaine May. This is very exciting. 35th episode. We finally got a female director. Ridiculous, but this is sort of the problem with doing 70s films. There aren't a lot of female directors, but we got one today, Elaine May. It was written also by Elaine May.
Cinematography, Bernie Abramson, Lucian Bollard, and Victor Kemper, The Man, The Myth, The Legend. Edited by John Carter and Sheldon Kahn, stars Peter Falk, John Casavetis, Ned Beatty, Carol Grace, William Hickey, Sanford Meisner, Joyce Van Patten, and of course, M. Emmett Walsh. It is number 52 on the IndieWire list of best 70 films. It's nowhere near the AFI list and was not nominated for any odds whatsoever. In fact, this is a movie that did not do very well at the box office.
And I'll get into the backstory of the film because it is actually really interesting and important to talk about that. But before we do that, dun dun dun dun dun, here comes the moment everyone looks forward to. Jonathan, Mikey and Nicky, is this a good movie? Is this a bad movie?
Is this a great movie? I'm going to outsource my answer to Stanley Kaufman, the legendary American film critic who in 1978 declared this one of the 10 best American films of the decade. And who am I to argue with Stanley Kaufman? But if you need to know the answer, uh, you know, yes, it's a it's a towering masterpiece. It's a great plus. No, I think he left it. He had a very long life. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Very long life.
Trevor Burrus, Jr. And he was a very important participant in this movement of the New Hollywood as a critic. I mean, the New Hollywood had so many attendant subcultures to it, and it was also a great time for serious writing about the movies, and they would fight amongst themselves.
And he coined the term, I believe, the movie generation, to describe what he said was a certain avidity for a film within a certain kind of youth culture from, say, college age up to the 1930s that created the audience for the the new Hollywood movies. And so I do value his judgment in most things. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
That's interesting. I used to remember a couple years ago he was still writing for The New Republic and he was writing movie reviews, and it was like he's got he has been around forever.
He might have lived to a hundred. I I'm not, you know, it's it's not, he's in the he was in that ballpark. He's in the ballpark.
That's a good ballpark to be in. Um okay. Before we get into the movie, we don't usually talk about we talk about the films. That's what we do in this podcast. We talk about the movies, we in we dig deep, we interpret, we try to understand what's going on, we talk about the performances. We don't get into sort of the backstory around the film. But I'm going to make an exception at the beginning of this conversation because the backstory of this film is fantastic.
Ish. Okay, so this movie is directed by Elaine May. Now, Elaine May, still alive today, she's 94 years old, very impressive achievement on its own. She directed four films in her lifetime. Uh A New Leaf, The Heartbreak Kid, which we talked about briefly last week, a dark, dark comedy. Uh, this movie, Mikey and Nicki, and Ishtar, one of the great uh film bombs, I think in for film film history, I think. Uh, and before she was a director, she was very famously uh partner uh with uh Mike Nichols.
They were a comedy team, I guess in about the 50s and 60s.
Yes, Nichols and May. One of the Nichols and May. You know, legendary improvisational comedy team. They performed everywhere, including on Broadway, and one show, I believe it was directed by Arthur Penn, and they performed for presidents and then they split up amicably. Um but yes, very, very important. This turn of the fifth late 50s, early 60s revolution in American comedy, they were at the forefront of as well.
Yeah, no, she's a really important figure in in sort of American pop culture, if you will, of the past half century or so. But on set, she could be a little difficult. I think that's uh accurate way to put it. And look, like lots of male directors were difficult as well. But she um her difficulty came in that she liked to shoot a lot of film. Now, the story of this film is that the shoot lasted 110 days for what's basically, I mean, kind of a two-handed film.
About it's about two men in their relationship. Seems like a lot of time for filming for just that. Uh, she shot 1.5 million feet of film.
More than Gone with the Wind.
No, no, no, not just more. Three times more than Gone with the Wind, which I think is a four-hour movie. This is an hour and 40 minutes. And a tight hour and 40 minutes, too, I'd add, by the way. Um, this film was production began in 1973, it came out in 1976. It was prolonged, A, because editing 1.5 million feet of film takes forever. And also there were lawsuits between May and Paramount Pictures, who would produce the film and who was not happy with her cut.
There's all these crazy stories that she like stole, or she had her boyfriend steal reels of the film and hide them in their home in Connecticut to keep them away from Paramount.
The better version of that story is that several reels of the film were hidden in the office of Elaine May's psychiatrist. That I did not know. No idea if that's true, but it's a better story.
I did not hear that. It's a better story. I hope it's true. Uh the original budget for the film was 1.6 million, and it ballooned to 4.3 million by the end. When it finally came out, Paramount dumped it basically around Christmas time. It's not a Christmas movie, let's be clear about this point. Um, and it did not do very well. The cut apparently was a disaster, lots of continuity errors, and uh it was panned by the critics. And then it was she re-released it in 1978.
I believe she bought it from Paramount, re-released it with her own director's cut, and it was from that time on, it sort of became known as a cult classic. Um the famous story about this film and why it took so long, that she had would have three cameras running at the same time. And even when the scene was over, she'd keep the cameras running.
And at some point, one of the scenes this happens, and the I guess the assistant director yells out cut, and Mae snaps at him and says, What are you doing? And he says, Well, they walked off the set, and she goes, Yes, but they might come back. That's kind of what happened in this film. She just shot tons and tons and tons to kind of capture the issue between John Casavetes and uh Peter Falk. So that's sort of the backstory of this movie.
Um and you know, you do see in the film, by the way, there are some continuity issues, which is to be un I think's understandable considering the le the amount of film that was shot and her obviously seeking out the perfect performances from these two actors. Um before I get into this, I guess I want to ask you this question, Jonathan. Mikey and Nicky, what is this movie about?
I think this movie is about loyalty, uh, ultimately. And I think what is bravora about this movie is that it is not just about the loyalty between two friends, but it is the manipulation of the audience's loyalties across the two characters. So that you start this movie really sympathizing with Mikey. Mikey has a problem, and that is that Nikki is being really difficult because Nikki's cray cray, and Mikey has to do whatever he can to help it.
Well, I mean, Nikki has some issues to deal with, let's be clear on that point. But then, so you're with Mikey for the first part of the movie, and I think this I think this is a Shakespearean tragedy in three acts. And I think that there's a pivot point at which Mikey then engages in what can only be described as an unspeakable betrayal. And then the audience's loyalty, I think, shifts over to Nikki.
And then over the long course of Act Two, we slowly come to realize, or at least are able to conceptualize why Mikey might have reached the point where he could betray Mickey. And then Act Two, in my estimation, ends with the big fight they have on the street, and then our partners go their separate ways for the rest of the film until the denouement at the end.
And so I really think what's so you know, cinematically, sorry to be pretentious, uh, about this storytelling is the way in which you, as an audience member, can have your own loyalties manipulated so plausibly like that, yeah. As you go with with first you're with Mikey, then you shift back toward Nikki, then you're kind of cut adrift because you obviously can't go with Nikki anymore. And so what you have on your hands is a classic tragedy.
Yeah, so to get to this point, let's just let's just step back for a second and sort of explain what's going on in this film. This is a character-driven film, but there is there is a plot somewhat, which is that Nikki, we don't know what he's done, I think he stole money from a mafia kingpin that he works for. That he works for. Right. And there's a contract out on him. Another book he has already been killed, I guess the person he'd been even works for. Yeah. Right.
Um, and so we we see we meet Nikki in this hotel room. It's a very seedy hotel room. Um it is um he looks like he hasn't slept in about four days. He's greasy, he's sweaty, he's smoking, it's he's he's a mess. And um calls up his friend Mikey, asks him to come over, and uh uh arranges for him to come up to his hotel room by throwing uh throwing something out the window to get his attention because he doesn't know.
I think it's not clear if he if Mikey is going to turn him in, because Mikey also works for re for this mob boss, Dave Resnick. Um and that's kind of how the movie unfolds. And you see the relationship very quickly between the two of them, which is that Nikki is kind of um he is he's in a very desperate place, and Mikey is her trying to be the kind of reasonable person, trying to help him and trying to uh he seemingly wants to get him out of danger.
Yes. But as we find out as the phone goes on, in fact, he's actually working with Resnick to arrange for Nikki's murder.
And there's so much there in those th those first 20 minutes. That whole time sequence is 20 minutes long, and brilliantly it starts, or not starts, but very early on, you have Mikey hurling himself against the door that Nikki has barricaded closed, which is exactly the opposite of how the movie will end, with Nikki throwing himself against the door in in a similar situation.
You also are exposed to just the spectacular night-for-night shooting that you all know I'm a sucker for, that populates this movie, and that apparently, as I understand it, this movie was shot entirely at night and overnight, even for the interior scenes. This is a movie just drenched in darkness. You also have the nurturing relationship between the two. You know that they're very old friends because they know so much about each other.
And then even though Mikey's character seems like the quote unquote normal one, when he dashes off to the to the corner store to get a little milk, he has his own little outburst of violence. And so you're kind of signaled that he may not be a sweetheart through and through, and as because we come to learn that they're both kind of low-level gangsters in this small-time mob in Philadelphia. Experiences based on Elaine May's own upbringing, by the way.
Yeah, that scene where Falk he's trying to get some cream, it almost reminded me of the scene in Five Easy Pieces where Nicholson's trying to order toast and he doesn't can't get toast and he wants cream to help because Nicki's dealing with an ulcer. The guy won't give him cream, so he orders 15 coffees so he can get 15 creams with the coffee. And the guy agrees to do it, and then after all of that, Fuck jumps over the counter and assaults this guy.
I mean, it's it's a very unexpected and and uh sort of almost a non-sequire bit of violence that that unfolds here. But it it's interesting that how it it's interesting that it's in there. Interesting also that it really gives you some insight into these characters, that they are, how shall we say, they might lack impulse control. Is that a fair description? Yes. Um, but I want to say for the record, I love this movie too. I think this movie is fantastic.
But a big part of why I love this movie is I just really, really love the performances by both Cassavetis and Falk. I I think they and they're and they're they're doing different things in these roles. Uh Cassavetti's somebody I tweeted last night about how much I love this film. I was watching it again, and somebody was like, I can't stand Cats Fay's character. He's so wormy and he's so obnoxious. I'm like, yeah, that's the point. That's why he's so good.
Because he comes across like such a jerk in the film. But the opening thing, you see that vulnerability. You see um how emotional he is about the fact that he thinks he's going to die. And in a lot of ways, like that is the most emo most emotionally uh open he is until the final scene of the movie. And in some ways, I sort of view the rest of the film as him trying to deny those feelings that he demonstrates in the first sort of like 10 minutes of the movie.
The scene between him and Falk in the hotel room, where he's crying and he's like asking for his help, it's just the saddest scene. But I also am just so blown away by how much Cassavetti sells it and sells his emotional vulnerability.
Aaron Ross Powell I think both performances are spectacular. I think they're both spectacular throughout, but I do think Cassavetti's best work in the movie comes in that first 20-minute hotel room sequence. That's the real That's the most where he's performing in a way that's different than you often associate with him as an actor.
That's yes. Can you say more about that? Because that that's an interesting point. And I want to I want to- I you've seen more of his films than I have, so maybe you can you can extrapolate on that point.
Aaron Powell It's just his vulnerability in that scene, as you pointed out already, is so real. And usually we think of Cassavetes as generally a kind of a cool cat. Yeah. You know, he's he he's a fine actor. He he may have play within a certain range, but I guess that's what I'm applauding, which is and the hotel room sequence, he's reaching beyond the normal range of roles and performances that I typically associate Cassavetes with.
Falk's work here is also outstanding and is also, you know, Falk can go big. And you another thing I say all the time is how much I like it when when when actors go down. And Falk's subdued moments in this movie are particularly illustrative of his fine abilities as an actor. I mean, he's most famous for you know his role as Colombo, but he's a very serious actor, and he shows that here and in other pictures.
I think what is so uh something about Falk, I want to just mention it too. Like he does so much with his face in this movie. Like every I feel like every scene you get a different visage of Peter Falk. Like with On the Bust, and he almost has this like beatific look on his face. But I also want to say, too, the thing about Falk is that he is Columbo. Right? I I learned about Peter Falk from watching Columbo. So that is an indelible uh per acting performance.
And I think it's very rare you have an actor who's so associated with one role. And when you see other things from he's in, you I think there's an inc there's a tendency to sort of see Columbo doing the performance. You don't feel that here. No. I don't feel that at all. Yeah, I don't feel that at all.
Um and while while we were in that hotel room, I also want to because I do think so much is established there. And one of the things established here is the importance of the fact that this friendship roots back to childhood. And it's not an accident that this movie is called Mikey and Nikki, right? I I doubt that most people in their lives call them either Mikey or Nikki. Those are diminutives that they probably called each other when they were kids.
And similarly, there's a certain childlike element to the way in which they engage, and I think Falk even kind of sings at the very open the door, Nikki, you know. There's there's all of these things that hearken back to childhood and the fact that this is root, their friendship is firmly rooted, if now broken at its foundations, in their deep childhood bond. And that is a rare type of friendship. Most people have those friendships in their lives, but they are quite exceptional. Yeah, I agree.
I agree.
And let's just say a word about Casavetti's quickly, because you know, he has a he has his filmography as an actor and then as a director. And as an actor, I mean, I don't know, is is this a I don't know if I'm wrong when I say this, but I feel like maybe his mo one of his most famous roles, or maybe his most famous role as an actor, is in Rosemary's Baby as Mia Farrow's husband. I mean, certainly the one that got him that g got brought a lot of attention.
Aaron Ross Powell Possibly, although and it's not my it's not my thing, but I think he also got a lot of attention for uh The Dirty Dozen.
Aaron Powell Oh, right, The Dirty Dozen. Sorry, that's right. Dirty Dozen as well. You're right. That is well.
He was also a jazz pianist slash detective in the sh TV show from the late 50s to early 60s, Johnny Staccato. And he bought a house with the money he earned from that TV series and mortgaged that house to finance his films over and over and over again.
Amazing. Now, as a director, he made a number of just, you know, I think sort of legendary films, right? I mean Faces, Husbands, Women Under Woman Under the Influence, Killing of a Chinese Bookie, Opening Night, Gloria, many of these films starring his wife, Gina Rowlands. Um and we'll talk about Chinese Bookie at some point. It's fantastic. But his films are are difficult movies. They are they are slogs. And I don't mean that in a negative way.
I mean they are emotionally uh um it puts you to the ringer, especially a woman under the influence.
Aaron Ross Powell One of the best things Sean Cassavetti's ever said was I would not call my films entertainment.
Yes. Yes. But I think it's interesting, but I think of that, and then I think of the contrast with making like The Dirty Dozen, Rosemary's Baby, which are more, I think, somewhat like I don't say more conventional films, but they're not as emotionally exhausting as his as his filmmaking.
Yeah, but you know, Orson Wills did the same thing. You show up as an actor, take a big paycheck, and so you can finance your films.
You can finance your films. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. But so but I think what's neat about this movie is this movie feels and I I think I made this mistake last time I kept playing this a Cassavetti's film. Uh it's not. It's an Elaine May film. But I think of it as a Cassavetes film, just because it is a it's a difficult film. It is a film that really pushes the audience and demands a lot of the audience.
Um go ahead, I want to yeah, I want to dwell on that. For a second, because I do think this is often seen as a Cassavetes film, and it's just not fair to Mae. May wrote this fully before she met Cassavetes or Falk, who came later to the production. It is and it has a Cassavetes feel, as we'll talk about sh today, in that the s many of the scenes go on for longer than you want them to. And so you're really squirming in your seat. That's a very Cassavetes thing.
Very. And you also have the charisma of Cassavetes and Falk engaging in each other like they do in other Cassavetes films. And so you start to think of it, you know, as a quote-unquote Cassavetes film. And sure, I think it was really productive and helpful to have John Cassavetes and Peter Falk there. But I do think this is very much an Elaine May film. I think that the movement of the film is actually more direct and linear than most Cassavetti's films are. Agreed.
And there's also the standard May motif of a movie about an a betrayal between two intimate partners. All of her films have that theme in them. I mean, there's only four, but they all share that common theme. And that's not really what Cassavetes was was focused on in his films. He had his own stuff. So let's, you know, let's just pause and say, remember everybody, this is Elaine Mays film.
Yeah, no, absolutely. But I it's interesting you made that point about scenes that drag on. There's one in this we'll get to in a little bit that drags on way longer than I am comfortable with, but yet I couldn't take my eyes off it. When we talk about a woman with the influence, and we will do it at some point, when we have when we have um built up the intestinal fortitude to watch that film again.
Um that is a film that is defined by a number of scenes that just go on so much longer than you want them to, and yet you cannot look away. Uh it is that's a phenomenal film. This film does a lot of the same stuff. And so that's one of the reasons why I think I always think of it as a Cassavetti film, even though it's not. Um, and that you were talking about an early sort of scene.
I think the early scene in the hotel sets up the movie, but there's one moment in particular that I know you love from that scene. And what happens is basically they are in this hotel, he feeds him these antacid tablets, feeds him the cream, they leave. And it's, you know, Nikki again thinks someone's after him, thinks someone's going to kill him, and they want to walk out the hotel. And this, you know what? Let me turn it over to you.
There is an exchange in the stairwell between the two of them. That is, as you said to me, it we talked about this before, the entire film.
But go ahead. Yes, for me, it is the entire film. And I do want to also pause before I get into that to say we haven't talked about how well written this movie is. The performances are there, but one-third of the lines in this movie are great.
They're very smart, they're very knowing, and they're the types of dialogue exchanges between two characters who know each other so intimately that there's what's said and that's what's as if they're repeating conversations they've been having their entire lives. And some of the turns of phrase are really, really smart, and so all of the scenes are populated with this depth of writing. So Mikey finally convinces Nikki to leave the hotel.
There's a lot of shenanigans with you know, switching of coats because you know Nikki's a little nervous. But the key exchange is when their folk Mikey is trying to reassure Nikki, and so they trade Mikey's watch for Nikki's gun. And two things happen there that that we don't really fully appreciate when you watch it the first time. One is that that watch is probably Mikey's single most prized possession. And so for him to trade his father gave him the watch.
Yes. Did you say I'm sorry, but did you say it already? Maybe you did say it earlier. I did not say it earlier. No, I just said it was his most prized possession. Okay, fine. Um and and so he so trading that for the gun is an enormous gesture on his part. I mean, you know, if you watch it the first time, you say, you what's so important about trading the trading the watch? But we watch it as you watch it the second time and you're like, wow, you know, he's trading the watch with a gun.
And then the handoff of the gun tells us a lot about Nikki because he hands it off in a very awkward way with the gun pointing at himself, which does two things at once. One is is it's gesturing at the idea that Nikki thinks very much that Mikey is participating in the conspiracy to kill him. And he's kind of saying, Here's the gun, you're pointing it at me, here have it. You want to shoot me? Yes. Go ahead and shoot me.
But the other is, and this also is one of the core elements of the movie, is it's the I think the first true example of something we see over and over again is Nikki's self-destructive streak. So to pass someone a gun with a gun, a loaded gun pointing at you, that's a kind of a self-destructive act. You know, it's not it's not recommended by I would assume by our gun-owning community. And there's there's elements throughout the movie uh in which Nikki behaves in a very self-destructive way.
So I think that exchange is the movie for me. And then of course they spill out into the dark streets and they're wandering on the dark streets at night. No, they run out into the dark streets, right? They go just streaking out of the building and it's another hearkening back to childhood, right?
They run out of the children would. Yeah. Absolutely. They're laughing and they're joking about the whole thing, and it's yes, it absolutely is. Um I want to mention something else really quickly. So one thing I love about this film I love about all these 70s films is just like the production work. And they go to this bar that feels like just this hole in the wall, shithole 70s bar in Philadelphia. And there's all kinds of different things in the movie.
They go to a movie theater that's open all night. There's like a candy store that's open 24 hours, all these little bits that like, I wish we had that today. I guess you know, I know things are better now in a lot of ways in the 70s, but man, I kind of wish we had stuff like that today.
But this bar they go to is uh I think another fantastic scene of the movie because, you know, they're sitting here drinking and and it becomes clear from a phone call that Falk makes and a f and our introduction to the uh Ned Beatty's character who plays sort of the hitman in the film who was trying to kill uh Nikki. We don't know for sure that they're working together, but it's it's pretty circumstantially clear that these two are in cahoots. And you see them in this bar, the back and forth.
And as I read it, it's Nikki is trying to deduce whether Mikey has sold him out or not. Right. And that's a lot of the sort of the subtext of this entire scene. And Nikki is trying to keep him here so the hitman can show up and shoot him.
Yes. So, yes, Mikey's job is to get Nikki in a certain place at a certain time so that Ned Beatty can rub him out. And we realize this in this bar scene, and again, it's just a staggeringly unspeakable betrayal. And then as we've discussed, Nikki kind of looks at Mikey in an odd way, and it's the first time in the movie that that Mikey starts to f seem a little uncomfortable.
A little nervous. It's really hot, it's really hot in here, he says. Remember? Yeah.
Yes. And I do want to add that bar scene. One of the one of the other things that distinguishes this film is an Elaine May film from a John Cassavetes movie, and I love John Cassavetes, is that a lot of these constructions, uh frame compositions, are really attractive. And in the bar, this bar where you have the table, the way, as you mentioned, this the the production design, the way the table is dressed, but not just the beers and the milk and the framing, this is very tight.
This is very disciplined. And I think Cassavetes is a little more freewheeling in his with his construction. So I mean that worked for him, but over and over again, when we get to the scene that you most want to talk about, the compositions there I find extraordinary. I find them horrifying, but they're also extraordinary. Right.
I mean, I think what's interesting about this scene to me, and why again, this is why I love this film so much, is that the subtext is so much more interesting than the context. You're watching these two guys drink and smoke and talk, and Casavedes is blowing uh um uh what's it called, smoke rings with his cigarettes very very in a very cool way.
But what's really happening is the two of them are plotting or trying to figure out I shouldn't say the two of them are plotting, the two of them are are operating on a on a subconscious level, in which Falk is basically trying to set up this kill, but clearly also that there is some discomfort that he has about what's going on. And Casavetis is trying to deduce whether is Mike in it or not.
And I just love that kind of um challenging of an audience to really try to try because it's very clear that what's happening in their brains, in their minds, is the real action of that scene, not what they are saying to each other.
Absolutely. And and that is I think that takes place often throughout the movie, although there are a couple of outbursts from Falk, uh from Mikey that bring that subtext into the text, uh, I think effectively so. But yes, it's it's it's a good example of that kind of storytelling.
Um and then it's like and then I think from that point on, I think you do see this kind of shift in Nikki's character. You understand why people want to kill him. Very brutal about it. Right? First they go to this bar, it's a black bar, the only white people in the bar, because uh because Falk uh Mikey wants to call his his wife, which by the way raises a suspicion with Nikki, who says, wait, you were in that bar for 45 minutes before, you didn't want to call Andy now, you want to call her now.
Like he's clearly not he's clearly trying to figure this out. Like he thinks that Mikey might be in it. And I'm curious, actually, before we get into that, do you think that Nikki figures out that Mikey is in on this plan to kill him?
I think he suspects it, but I don't think he knows for sure. But there's a lot going on there. And I do want to underscore the trip to the to the black bar because again, what characterizes that encounter is Nikki's self-destructiveness. Absolutely. You do not wander into, as a white person in in Philadelphia in 1973, a a kind of black bar and and be provocative and almost pick a fight.
And the only reason why, you know, n really bad things didn't happen is because everybody just assumed he was a cop looking to make trouble for the purposes of of rousting the joint or something. You know, it it's so provocative what he does.
He clearly starts something. He clearly tries to um to start a fight. Yeah. And then after that scene, right, which by the way is a great scene, he goes, gets on a bus, he starts smoking on the bus. Lady says, Don't smoke. He tells her to, you know, F off. I'm gonna do what I want to do. Then he wants to get off the bus at the front, but the bus driver played by M. Emmett Walsh doesn't want to let him off the bus in the front because the rules are he wants to get off in the back.
But Nicki is now Nicky says, I I mean I think the inclination here is that he's worried he gets off the bus, someone's gonna shoot him. But I think he's just being an asshole, frankly. I think he's just being difficult because they can be difficult. Absolutely. Okay, okay, good. And he attacks M. Emmett Walsh. Yeah. Which by the way leads to my favorite lines in the entire movie when he's grabbing him and Falk's trying to help him. Falk goes, this guy is enormous. Like, what are you doing?
This guy's huge. But like you, as you said, you see this element of his personality. He is so self-destructive, and he's such a jerk, and he creates conflict where there doesn't need to be conflict.
Yes. And but you also point make another observation there, which is this movie, which is wrenching, is also often funny. I mean, that was a funny line from Falk, and we're about to go to the cemetery, which is uh, you know, not typically thought of as a funny place, but there's a lot of funny moments in that cemetery scene, and and it's it's Nikki who drags them to the cemetery, which is one of my favorite scenes in this movie. Well, just eight minutes long. Yes. Go ahead.
But just to your point, they're on the bus and they're supposed to go to this movie theater. That's where, by the way, Falk has told the contract killer to come and meet them. But he wants to go visit the cemetery, which again I kind of read, but it might be you're reading too much into it. As then Casavetti's kind of had a feeling that something was gonna happen to the theater, which is why he wanted to get off the bus early.
I I could be wrong about that, but I had a sense I was that's what made me wonder about whether or not he knew Mikey was on the plan. They get off the bus, they go to the cemetery, and he says to him, Well, we're gonna break in like we did as kids. And and and and Mikey's like, We didn't break into cemeteries when we were kids. What are you talking about? We didn't do that. They get in the cemetery, they look for his mother's gravestone, and they find it. Nikki's gravestone. Right.
Nikki's mother's gravestone, or they say find, which then leads to this can you just take this away? Because I know you love the scene so much, I'll let you just explain what happens here.
Well, but that's just the humorous part where where Mikey is trying to recite the mourner's prayer, but he keeps getting interrupted by uh by by Nikki. But it's of it's eight minutes, it's so dark you can barely see the characters, and it is a very intense conversation because they are in a cemetery, it's not by accident, and it's a c lots of conversations about death. And one of the lines that's repeated over and over again is aren't you gonna die someday? Aren't you gonna die someday?
But there are several crucial things that happen here. One is, again, we're reminded that these are childhood friends who attended the funerals of each other's parents. That they they knew each other so intimately. And there's some beautiful lines here, you know, don't you wish your mother was still alive? And, you know, Falk recites them all. I wish my mother was alive, I wish my, you know, your mother was alive, I wish my father was alive. I mean, they're all they're all gone.
And so they're really look staring into the entire past. This is the first time that their Mikey's brother Izzy is in invoked here, uh, who died at the age of 10 and becomes, I think for me, an important player in the movie. But I don't know if Cassavetes thought something bad was going to happen at the movie theater, but I do think Cassavetis, that is, Nikki brought him to the cemetery uh in a very provocative way.
And again, it's a funny scene, it's a moving, a moving scene, and then there's the key line where Falk is trying to storm off, and and Nicky says, Ma, if anything happens to me, speaking to his mother's grave, um, and of course Falk says, you know, they don't you don't have to speak out loud to these people. But he says, Ma, yeah, if if anything happens to me, Mikey did it.
See, that's why I think he he k he knew what was up, because that line and and Falk's reaction to it gives a lot away because he explodes. Don't you say that, he tells him. He yells at him, don't you say that. But it it's clear that he struck a nerve with that with that with that that that comment.
Aaron Powell I think he struck more than a nerve. I mean, I don't I think we can get out of the cemetery. I would be happily spend a half hour in that cemetery. But what's important for me about the cemetery scene, I think this movie is so well sequenced, is that you go from the cemetery to bus ride number two. And in bus ride number two, first of all, they're fooling around, of course, like kids once again.
With the patty cake game, right?
With the hands on the hands and then try to get the hand. Yeah, exactly. But Falk then announces that he's gonna run off with Nikki. Now a lot hinges upon whether you believe that. I believe it. I believe in that moment, from the cemetery to the bus, Falk is totally turned around, and he will run off with Nikki and switch his loyalties back to him.
I th I think that's how I read that bus scene, and I think it's so crucial for what happens when we get to the scene that you're dying to talk about that that that that I'm that I'm nervous about talking about.
Yeah, well, but actually, uh before we get to that, that is a really interesting insight that I see, I think in that moment I didn't I thought Falk was just trying to con him. Right?
Because the the theater thing hadn't worked out and the the bar hadn't worked out, and so he was trying to, I think, and maybe he suspected something because Cassid because Nikki said to him, it'll be Mikey did it, Mikey will have done it, he'll have been the person responsible, that he's trying to convince him that he actually does want to um help him. Or he's trying to make a he's trying to go above and beyond to make the case that he's really on his side. Now it could be read both ways.
I don't think it matters. I think it's this question of how you want to interpret it, but it is an interesting moment, and it does speak to, I think, the complexity of this relationship, because you could really interpret it in two totally different ways.
Aaron Ross Powell Yes. But for me, and I do want to I'm gonna call you on this one. You said Falk looked beatific. Is that how you're talking about? No, no, that was that was the first one to the first bus ride. I see Falk's total disposition as changing on the second bus ride.
And I think it's because I put so much weight on the meaning of the cemetery scene that the cemetery scene drags Falk back to the place where Nikki was this intimate all the way back with the parents and the brother and everything. I I think it's I think it's a tough cookie who can go through that cemetery scene and then say, okay, now we're going to go off and drag Nikki to the place where some other guy's gonna shoot him.
And so I do think, however, reckless my reading is in that moment he has decided he will join forces with Nikki. And you know, the gangsters are kind of nervous about this all along. When they interact with them briefly, there is some grumbling about whether Mikey's heart has been in this. Right. And so we're we're invited to understand throughout that that Mikey may have mixed feelings about this.
And if there's one moment where I think Mikey is fully on board with Nikki, and that's what makes this movie so interesting, for me it's at the bust. But again, sequencing. What is the next thing that happens in the movie? And here I'll turn it over to you to tell us because it's just unbearable.
I I just want to say also for the record that like while I do want to talk about that, like I just I have to just point out that like Fuck uh delivering them, trying to deliver the mortars cottage and the cemetery is like such a Jewish moment in this film. And I just feel like you don't get that kind of stuff in in films anymore. It's like organically it's not a stereotypical at all. It feels like it's very much something you could imagine a Jewish character doing in a cemetery like that.
I could absolutely imagine it. And I just, I don't know, there's something about it that I just kind of really love that like that may just have this in there. And then maybe we look at live in a different era when like you could get away with stuff like that. You couldn't get away with it today. I don't know. But I I just I I love that moment. I love him trying to do it. And then Cassetti's in constantly interrupting him and trying to stop him from doing it.
Yes. I would not call the cemetery scene irreverent.
No, not in the slightest. Um so again, like the next thing we see is this scene with uh where they go to this woman's apartment who is, I guess, a girlfriend. It's not really clear. I mean, uh as a girlfriend.
Yeah, it's one of Nikki's girlfriends, I think. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Although we're not also clear she's also a prostitute. We can't I don't I mean there's a and there's an insinuation about that, it's not really clear. She knows.
My reading didn't did not have her as a prostitute. Did not have her as a prostitute. Okay. I mean just that Nikki bandies that notion about uh but I don't think she is. That's my my assessment is.
I th I i you know what it wasn't it wasn't clear. Uh but I think i uh he certainly tried to create that impression that she was. Um this uh the actress, this is uh Carol Grace. She only had four staring models. This is relaxed acting performance, she had a lot of Broadway, but this is her last film performance. She is wonderful in this scene. By the way, Car Carol Grace's other acclaimed fame, but you know what it is? I do not. She was married to Walter Matha. Wow. Yeah, for a very many people.
Yes. Exactly. Um so this scene is one of the more uncomfortable scenes that we we have discussed in the 35 films we've talked about in this in this in this podcast. Um Where do you even begin with this one? But I think the thing that I'd say is that Cassavetti's this is when you see just what a horrible person he is. Uh I I I mean, I really came that what came across me to the scene is just how awful he is to this woman and how he keeps telling her, I love you and I love you.
He doesn't really love her, clearly. He just wants to get laid. And he keeps kind of coax her into having sex with him even though she doesn't want to because Mikey is in the room with them.
And eventually Although although he retreats Mikey, as we all would, retreats as far as he can to the kitchen, beautiful red kitchen, uses a garbage can as a seat, which I think was supposed to be evocative. It's all very tastefully done. There's a long shot. I was talking about frame composition before. This is a beautifully shot scene, lovely darkness, but this is excruciating. I mean, Cassavetes has sex with his girlfriend or whatever.
It's not that he has that he has sex with her, it's the way he kind of coaxes her into it. Yes. By trying to flatter her by saying, I love you, I love you, and she doesn't believe him, and she doesn't want to do this because Mikey's there and she keeps pushing her and pushing her, pushing her. And eventually she does attack them, even though it's very clear she doesn't want to. Yes. I mean, this is what they this is what they call, I think it's like a grape, I think it's what it's called.
Kind of like this gray area between, again, forcible rape and um whatever happens in this scene. I mean, he doesn't rape her, but he coaxes in something she does not want to do. Um it's it's pretty unpleasant to witness. It's pretty misogynistic. Um and as you said, the composition of the scene I think is really interesting because. Because it's a wide frame where you see uh Nikki and um Nelly, that's her name, uh on the couch on the left side of the screen.
And in sort of the center right, you see Falk in the kitchen. And I I I said this to you uh uh the other day that I I wondered if the idea here was to sort of incorporate the audience into this into this like the image, to sort of say that it's not just that you're you're kind of the audience is like Falk in a way, right? Uncomfortable, clearly, but witness and not do anything to stop what's happening in this in this moment.
That's possible. I really think Falk is the focus of the scene, the character, Mikey. And so I didn't I didn't see him as my stand-in in that particular scene. I saw him as the focus of attention of that scene. And they're they're not in you know, the lovers are not real. They're in dark they're in darkness and they're not in focus. But we can see Falk in the kitchen in a nice red kitchen, which is a very attractively rageful color. And, you know, what is this scene about?
What is the scene about? This scene is about the humiliation of Falk's character. This is about the scene about the humiliation of Mikey. That's interesting.
That happens afterward, but that's in that's not how I read that. I think you say that because I think the focus point is is Nikki and the way that Nikki creates so much turmoil around him, right? That he puts that and that he has put his friend in this deeply uncomfortable situation. Yes. You know, in this scene, but like in the entire movie is about him putting Mikey in some incredibly comfort uncomfortable situation.
Because one of the sort of elements of this is like you mentioned this earlier, like Mikey is best friends with Nikki, and uh Resnick kind of expects him to assist in this hit, which means that like uh Mikey's been put in this uncomfortable position because of Nikki's behavior.
Um and so I that to me, this kind of what this scene kind of parallels the larger theme of the movie, which is that Nikki creates all this turmoil and all this anxiety, all this angst around him and forces people to have to respond to it. Because we see every sort of every character, so many characters in this film having to deal sort of with the the aftermath of having associated themselves with Nikki.
Not just Mikey, not just Nellie, this woman, but also his, I guess it's his wife or his ex-wife and their baby, right? There's just he just creates a lot of trouble in his wake. Yes. Hish and how unpleasant a person he really is.
Aaron Ross Powell So I wouldn't disagree with any of that. My point is slightly different, which is I think a great movie can sustain a number of distinct reads. And 100%. The read we've discussed a number of them today, absolutely. Yeah. But the read that you fixate on, you know, we could use the phrase red thread. So what's the red thread?
And for you, the red thread has has been really focusing on Nikki a bit and his, you know, utter assholishness, I think, is is is is something that you've kind of stringed together in your read. Whereas I think my focus is more about the this shifts in the relationship. And so if you believe, if you buy my argument, and you don't have to, that on the bus, Mikey flips and says, Okay, I've had the cemetery experience.
Nikki is my dearest friend, I will not betray him, I will throw in my lot with him. And then Nikki, I think, knows that he's flipped him. And so what does he do? Well, then we're back from my read to Nikki's self-destructive streak. And he takes him to this apartment and he utterly humiliates him. He he wins Mikey over and then destroys that victory.
And I know you want to stay in the apartment a little longer, but it's when they spill out into the street afterwards, and it's the one of the defining lines of the movie. I wrote it down here. You got all the friends, you got all the money. Did you have to do that to me? And that's really why I think this scene is about the humiliation of Bikey, and I think it's it's that self-destructive streak in Nikki, and I think it really is the final break, and then what happens on the street?
Can I say what happens on the street? He breaks the watch. Well, yes, he breaks the watch.
I mean, uh, but I want to I I want to go back. I I uh not really disagree. Look, we you said there's multiple reads, and I'm not saying your read is wrong or even not even disagree with you completely, but I think there's another way to look at this, which is I do think that one thing's interesting about Nikki is that you see the the positives and the negatives of why you understand why people associate with him.
Yes. He's better have a good reason because, you know, as you pointed out, he can be a rather unpleasant person.
He's an unpleasant person, but he's also a good time. Yes. He's also like like you mentioned the cemetery scene, like on the bus, like far uh uh Mikey clearly there's something about his personality that he wants to be around. And and and I think the actually better uh element of that comes when he visits his um uh his ex-wife, or I guess it's I can't even I'm not even sure if it's his wife or his ex-wife, uh played uh no, it is his wife, actually, yeah. Uh Joyce Van Patten.
And he visits her and he threatens to punch her in the face and break all the bones in her face. He wakes up their baby. Uh, you know, he's you see the unpleasantness, you see how undependable he is, you see what a jerk he is. But the how's the scene end? With the two of them kissing and kind of making up, and her sort of seeing something positive in him.
I mean, I think that I mean, even a scene with Nellie, it starts off in a way where you kind of see a little bit of rapport between them, and then it kind of goes to this very dark place when he wants something from her.
Nikki, for for all his many, many, many, many faults, is obviously a very charismatic character. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Exactly. I mean, one of the many backstories for the movie is that it was Mikey who got Nikki uh involved with the resnik mob, and then resnik immediately took a shine to Nikki and kind of almost displaced Mikey in in the pecking order of the this little small-time mob outfit. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
I guess I mean I think for me what I saw in that scene was was sort of the Jekyll and Hyde uh nature of although obviously more hyde than than um Jekyll. More high-but you see both sides of uh and you see the charisma. You see how persuasive he is. I mean you see these I I to me uh this scene is so painful to watch. In fact, I watched it last night. I actually fast-forwarded past it. I just didn't want to watch it again. I see it enough times, I know what happens, I didn't need to see it again.
It's just very difficult to watch. Um but I think what you do see in that is you you understand the totality of who Nikki is in that scene. That's why, to me, it is so brilliant. And I think having Falk in there, like you have the audience in there, is in a way it it helps understand how Falk sort of or how Mikey sort of fell into his orbit. And you feel it when they leave. Right?
So the way the scene finishes is that after they have sex, uh Nikki basically encourages Mikey to also have sex with her. She doesn't want this. And I am actually very surprised that Mikey chooses to do so. That he makes a move on her and tries to kiss her and she bites him and he slaps her, and they and it's a very difficult scene to watch.
But he I I felt like he was in control for a lot of the movie, and he seems to lose control in this moment when he falls under Nikki's sway and does what Nikki tells him to do.
Well, I have two reactions to that. One is I'm not sure if you're not reading our values into their values. I mean, this is really You know, that's a really fair point. That's a really fair point. You know, in experiences that May witnessed in the 1960s, and there's a certain kind of culture among men where they had they were steeped in this whole Madonna Hoore complex thing.
Yes. And even men in stable marriages, it was kind of uh tacitly acknowledged that there were women of ill repute that they might briefly affiliate with, and that this was not spoken of, but it was not seen as a a transgression that would be shattering of the relationship. And so I think Mikey and his cohort probably ha would not have seen having casual flings with women of ill repute as outside the bounds of their regular behavior.
I think that's fair, but I think it's also it doesn't feel consistent with the character as you've come to know him in the fill up to that point. Right? He does call his wife Annie. Now he does call her in part because he needs help with um the getting the set up with the hitman, but they have a they have a rapport that suggests that that they don't have this as bad a relationship as Nikki has with his wife.
That is certainly true.
Yes. And I and I also think that like even the synagogue, like there's a certain reverence that that that uh Mikey tries to show that Nikki interferes with. So I th I I do think it it just it felt and I think your point is really is spot on. It just felt a little out of character. But I think maybe that's the point. That maybe these guys really were like this, even though they might come across as being better people than they than they really were.
So maybe it is forced and maybe it is out of character, but for me it has a function, and it is that function of humiliation. And Nikki is encouraging him, saying, Do this, she wants it, she wants you. And then when they spill out into the street, Nikki is saying, Oh, you know, I don't know what you're talking about. You know, she sleeps with anybody, and and Mikey astutely says, anybody but me, right? So what you're saying is she will sleep with anybody, but she will not sleep with me.
I mean, it is the the depths to which Nikki goes out of his way to humiliate Mikey in that sequence immediately following the bus ride, to me, is it's overwhelming.
Now you now so the fight scene is what happens next. And why that that scene is extraordinary to witness because the fight is one of the more anticlimactic fights you're ever going to see. They fight, then Fogg tries to walk away, and they fight some more. Like it's clear that Nikki is like trying to con it's interesting about Nicki's character, trying to convince him that he's not that that he wasn't having humility, he wasn't so bad.
But when Mikey doesn't listen to him, he basically tells him, he gives him, does the arm thing and tells him to fuck off. And and like you see the sort of this like cavalcade of emotions from Nikki. So what is it about that scene that you love so much? You think it's so is so interesting?
I think it really starts with that line, you know, you got all the friends, you got all the money, did you have to do that to me? I mean, I read this as Nikki having won Mikey back over, trying to reassert his dominance in their relationship, in their social relationship. And it w it reaches a breaking point uh for Mikey, again, with that humiliation, and when he breaks the watch. He throws the watch on the ground that is Nikki and it shatters.
And again, this is, as I've said, Mikey's most important possession. And the breaking of the watch is the breaking of the bond between the two men. That's it. It's it's over at that point, and none of Nikki's tricks will ever work again. He will never be able to bring him back.
So a lot of their relationship, obviously to my mind, was Nikki treating Mikey shabbily and then winning him back over by whatever kind of cajoling and charisma that he would need to use to keep him kind of in the fold of their friendship. And that with the watch was just a bridge too far. They fight, they go their separate ways. And as you observed at the very beginning of our discussion today, we'd we'd like to talk about the movie and not about the the kind of backstory of the movie.
But there's just uh a a story which may or may not be true that is too great not to share, which is that there was a gap between the shooting of the apartment scene and the shooting of the street scene. And legend holds that as they're about to shoot the street scene, May went up seductively to Falk, and he leans in, and then she bites him on the lip, and and it really hurt. And Falk got very angry and said, Why did you do that?
And she said, Because I want you to remember how you're supposed to feel right now. Wow. That's a great story. I hope it's true, but we have no way of knowing if it's true. But it's a it's a great it was it's such an irresistible story. It it needed to be repeated at that point.
If it's not true, it should it should be. Let's put it that way. Um But let me uh I just want to step back one second here and ask you why you you should have touched on this a second ago, but but why first of all, I s I mean I think we both kind of assume that Nikki was trying to humiliate Mikey with his girlfriend.
Um why, again, do you think he does this? Aaron Powell I think he I uh that's why I think this is a Shakespearean movie. I think that both of these are very Shakespearean characters, and it's I say this not as a Shakespeare expert. And I think Nikki, especially so, and this gets us back to Wells. Wells would often draw characters like this. He is defined in part by this self-destructive streak that he cannot control.
And so this is I think he's tr I think he's trying to reassert his dominance in the relationship with this act, but also this is a really stupid act uh of self-destruction that it was very unwise for him to do at that particular juncture. I mean, my favorite moment when he goes and visits his estranged wife, let's call her that, uh at the time, when sh she's at first, as you pointed out, extremely hostile, and then as he's starting to depart, she becomes softer and warmer.
I mean, she's ushering him out the door, but you can see she still has feelings for him, and she says, you know, you're in trouble, you know, call Mikey, he'll be there for you. And and Nikki says, I can't do that. I've done too much to him.
Yeah.
And he recognizes that he's finally pushed that too far. For me, that's another one of the really beautiful lines uh in a movie full of beautiful lines. But let me ask you a question about this.
I mean, I've thought about this a l a lot when watching this film. Do you think there's some element in in Nikki that he knows he's going to die and he's preparing himself for that? Because a lot of what he does in this evening is almost like preparing for the end. Right. He says goodbye to his mother. He um says goodbye to his uh to his ex-wife or strange wife, his child, who he makes hold his thumb even though the child is sleeping.
He I like I mean, I guess maybe tries to have some finality to his relationship with with Nikki, um with Mikey, excuse me. Um there's like elements of like reliving his childhood, like going to the movies, going to a candy store. Like there's just something about like you could really interpret this movie as as in as like once he leaves the hotel, as if he's sort of playing out his last act.
Yes, that's that's all there for us, but he does seem to throughout the movie have this drive for self-preservation, so there's a tension there. But I think you're right. Yes. He has this series of visitations that you can read as farewells to each of these characters. And yet, you know, as most living things, he does still have this kind of survival instinct. Right. Right.
I don't think he wants to die. But I also think that there's an element of that he thinks he is going to die. Right. I don't know if that makes sense, but like Or he's preparing himself for the possibility that he's not gonna make it.
Aaron Powell Yes. Although if it was me, and it wouldn't have been, once I kind of flipped Mikey on the bus, I would have gotten out of Dodge as fast as possible uh w with Mikey in tow.
I'll tell you right now, I wouldn't have gone to the goddamn movie theater at one in the morning. I would have gone to the fucking airport. Now at some point he does say, like, oh, maybe if the airport surrounded it and Mikey's like, I don't think they're gonna be I don't think you're that important. Exactly. Uh I mean Nikki could have the point is that Nikki could have gotten out of town.
And I think your point is like his self-destructive uh uh elements of his personality basically push him to where he ends up, which is getting which we can just reveal it now, getting killed into the movie. But part of me sort of thinks that he knows this is coming.
I don't know. That's very plausible. And and can we give a shout out to that candy store scene? Oh, yeah. Which is not narratively essential at all. But when Mikey and Nikki go their separate ways, Mikey actually connects with Ned Betty the hitman uh and and particip and they visit uh with the mobsters and so on, whereas Nicki is having all these visitations that you mentioned with the people in his life, but then he stops at a candy store, which again roots us in childhood.
And what does he want? You know, comic book and and candy. But we also have it's Philadelphia, it's 1973, it's the middle of the night, and so kind of the old man is saying, Ah, welcome to my candy store. But he reaches for his gun. He reaches for his gun. He's holding his gun the whole time. It's just a beautiful little piece of business. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: And I couldn't figure out when he pulls the gun out if if Nikki sees him pull the gun out. I that I I wasn't sure about.
Trevor Burrus, Jr. That's true. I could not tell. And I I wasn't I don't think he did. But I think it's I think and this is an old man, candy store, old man with the with a 24-hour candy store.
But I just want you to imagine what what we've lost by not having 24-hour candy store. We have bodegas, so we do have that. That's true. Uh but that we used to have 24-hour movie theaters where they could just say, let's go see a movie. Uh not don't care what movie, let's just go see the movies. And the movie is $1.50 for adults and 50 cents for children. Uh that's that's the world that we left behind.
Um and I think just want to mention quickly about Warren Beatty, because uh Warren Beatty, Ned Beatty, very two very different actors. Yeah, that Ned Beatty plays the hitman in this movie. And I said this to you before we got on. He is by far the most relatable character in the entire film. Because he is a hitman who like complains bitterly because he's not making enough money off the job, and he's worried that if he bungles the hit, that he's not gonna get he's gonna ruin his reputation.
And you know, at some point, like, you know, uh Mikey says, why didn't you hire a driver? He's like, I hire a driver, I've got to pay him, and I'm I'm losing money on this job. I mean, like, this is a guy who's stressed about his job. Now, his job, of course, is to kill people, but like it's a job nonetheless, and he clearly, you know, takes it seriously and he's worried about how this whole thing is is gonna play out for him. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Yes, and also it's a Ned Beatty performance, like no other performance. You know, you can rattle them off in your head. Ned Beatty and Network, Ned Beatty and Deliverance, Ned Beatty is Lex Luthor's sidekick and Superman. These are, you know, he just plugged Ned Beatty in, and he's not playing the same character. He's, you know, playing very different characters in in different movies. He's a real pro's pro and he's terrific in in a relatively small role in this movie.
And I read somewhere that he had told he'd asked Elaine May to for ensure he had a he had a suit. There was like a a one-size too small. Oh, yeah. That's true. And you he look it uh the he's wearing a suit that does not fit him. Like you can see that the uh the pants legs are are not long enough. And when he points the gun at the end, you can see like his arms coming out from the suit because the suit is too small on him. It's like it's just a really lovely performance.
It's almost like a little bit of comic relief in a sense.
There's a lot of funny things in this movie.
He gets lost at one point. Why does he bungle the head? He can't find a place to park. That's literally what he said. And he asks for directions and he can't figure out where he's going. I mean, it is it is kind of like a little bit of comic relief from the incredible tension of watching Falk and Cassavetis together.
Trevor Burrus, Jr. But that's a nice touch with the wardrobe, which I had not processed. And you get the sense he's not your top shelf hitman, right? This is not Joe Bear from Three Days at the Contor.
No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Or or like the Jackal from the Day of the Jackal, somebody very different. Um so let's just get to the final to the final scene of the movie, because I think that's where Actually, oh I'm sorry, before we do that, really quickly, I gotta mention uh Sanford Meisner, who plays Dave Resnick and Bill Hickey who plays Sid Fine, who's like his his like henchman. Bill Hickey is like in everything. He's this wonderful face, he's this wonderful voice.
Um I can't remember what he was most famous for.
Um I was associated with Prissy's Honor, but that became much later.
Yes, that's right. Because he was he was nominated for Academy Award for Prissy's Honor. That's right. That's right. But he's been in lots of stuff. And and I just want to mention Sanford Meisner, who's very famous acting coach. Legendary acting coach. Legendary. I think this is one of the few films he ever starred in. Uh he is wonderful in just it's a very short little role, but he is wonderful as as this resonant guy who's sort of very, very believable.
He he acts and talks in the ways that you would expect his character to. Yeah. So apparently May wanted the president of Paramount or something, or some movie studio head to play the mafia.
That's so precious. Isn't that great? But I guess they just get turned out on that. I wonder why.
That's a very Altman move right there. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Yeah, exactly. That's exactly right. Very Altman as a move trying to pull something like that off. It didn't work, but I respect the uh I respect the effort. I really do. Uh so we get again, we lead to the end of the film where and and basically the the fight scene is the final scene with the two of them together. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Exactly. Like that's the break. That is the break, and there is no coming back from that break. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Exactly. And this is, I mean, I really do think the first movement you're with Mikey, and then in the middle, your loyalty shifts toward Nikki, and then that loyalty erodes slowly as you see how horrible he's been to Mikey over what must have been decades. And then you have that break, and then you're then you're stuck in act three. Each of the boys have gone their own way, and and and Nikki will eventually meet his fate. Yeah.
And I mean, I again I think it's fascinating that they they there's a whole sort of segment in the third act of them, you know, again, as you say, going their separate ways. Uh Mikey eventually goes home. Uh the the the hitman sort of follows him. Thinking that Nikki might come to the house and Mikey is there with his wife, uh uh Annie. You know, I her the actress who played this named Rose Eric, I couldn't find anything else about her. She was a Wikipedia entry.
I don't know that she did much else, but she's actually kind of wonderful in this scene with him. And it leads to this moment where Mikey sees the hitman outside the window and he brings up this line, which I know is for you the emotional high point of the movie. And I won't steal it. I'll let you say it, please.
Well, they sit together in the dark and then into the dawn. So they're sitting together for a long time. And Falk had boasted to uh I mean Mikey had boasted to Nikki that he talks with his wife about things, but actually there were a lot of things he had talked to her about. But Mikey's experience over the course of the evening has been, I think, somewhat cathartic for him. It's bringing back a lot of things. We're talking about, you know, all the parents, all the parents are gone.
And then we have the brother Izzy, and he says to her, you know, did I ever tell you I had a brother named Izzy who died? And I will confess that I I always shed tears at that line because to me it's just so deeply moving, and it's Falk's entire character and his entire history. And then he talks about his father, um, and he also there are some very little subtle pieces of business.
His wife had never met his father, and he just says casually, you know, what a great guy he was, but he didn't like the women in the family. And again, this gets back to this culture, this kind of homosocial culture of men who preferred the social company of men. And I could really picture this guy as being somewhat kind of dismissive of, you know, quote unquote, the women in a sort of British way that women were sent away from the room when the port was served or something like that.
Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yes. But I do think that Falk has father issues. And so the brother named Izzy who died, who Nikki also knew, um, was the younger brother, and he got the watch first. And Falk goes on to say, you know, I was the older brother, and of course that watch was, you know, going to come to me. Uh but but but he actually gave it to Izzy just, you know, because Izzy seemed to be interested in it. But really, really it was my watch.
And then after Izzy died, you know, then I got the watch. And again, the centrality of the watch in the first scene, in the breakup scene, and in this scene, I think for me, is so very important. And then he talks about his father and his brother, and he says that his father liked Izzy, and his father liked Nikki. And then his wife, uh Mikey's wife says, uh, I'm sure he liked you too, uh, to which Mikey responds with silence.
Uh it's it I find a very, very powerful scene, and I do think that this is all about Mikey's past, his identity, the role of Nikki in his upbringing and his family life, again, the loss of the brother, his relationship with his father, which I read as somewhat problematic, but it's all just coming cascading down uh on Mikey's character, all in this one night's experience. And then you get, you know, into the final scene where, you know, he and the wife are talking.
They certainly have a better relationship than than Nikki does with his wife, but there is some emotion. There is some t there is some tension in that relationship.
Yes. There are things that he says to her where it's clear she is tense and worried, and she has to reassure him that uh that oh she didn't mean what he thinks he meant. Because one gets the impression that he is violent with her. That's how I read it. And that she is a little bit afraid of him and afraid to say the wrong thing and that he might lose his temper, like he does with the guy in the bar. That's how I interpreted that.
That's utterly plausible. I had never crossed my mind, but it's utterly plausible. We have all the elements of evidence in place for that.
Uh well, can I just say can but before that happens, he says at some point in the fight there, um he makes this comment to uh Mikey says to Nikki, you call me the echo because I repeat things. And he says to her to her at the opening of the scene, he says, of he says, D do I repeat myself? Yeah. And she sort of says, Well, I've never noticed that. And he says, Well, maybe you should listen more closely to what I say. And I just I don't know.
I I maybe I'm just uh reading too much into this, but I picked up on and she kind of says, Okay, like she says, reassures him. I I had this feeling of of that they have a better relationship, but there's a little bit of fear there that he because I he clearly has a temper. You see his temper repeatedly break out in the film. And so I get this impression that she's a little bit uh fearful of what if she says the wrong thing, what he might do.
I think she's definitely fearful of saying the wrong thing. And I think it's definitely arguable that that he has behaved in that way. I just didn't to me I didn't see it, but it's certainly possible. I saw uh some depth in their relationship, especially in the phone calls before they got home. I did too. But I think there's something else there's something else underlying here as well. Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, it's again that's that's certainly possible.
And there is an there is an awkwardness uh to that conversation. But he is I think reaching out to her in a way that perhaps he didn't reach out to her before. And again, I go back to my favorite line. I mean, one of the many things that we learn when he says to her, Did I ever tell you I had a brother named Izzy who died, is that um he never actually told her that he had a brother named Izzy who died. That's a pretty surprising thing not to mention to your to your spouse.
Trevor Burrus, Jr. Exactly. And so there, you know, there was some there was some distance in the emotional intimacy of that relationship, even though I thought they were a sincere couple from what we saw in the movie.
Aaron Powell And I assume that you see um when he talks about Izzy, it's that's a stand-in for for Nikki. Right.
I think it's a parallel. I don't think it's a stand-in, I think it's a parallel. Parallel. Okay. That's fine. I mean they're both, you know, Izzy's Izzy's dead and Nikki's Nikki's on the way out. But Nikki's like but Nikki's like a brother to him.
Yes. Yes. Uh and clearly gonna die. Now, when we get to the final scene of Nikki gets to the to the house, he knocks on the door, and Mikey tells his wife not to say that he's home, and she keeps he keeps saying, Annie, open the door, open the door, and he realizes that Nikki is home and he keeps asking to open the door. He says, I need a doctor, I need a doctor, I need a doctor. Um, and they refuse to open the door.
Um some podcast that sort of said, like, yeah, a lot of 70s films, you know, barricading doors. And there's uh we saw that in in um in Dog Day, obviously. Uh we see it here, and uh, and you know, it's not a barricade, like he literally drags two ottomans across the uh across the floor to block the doorway so this so Nikki can't get in. And uh it's a tr it's an awful scene to watch because you know it's a final betrayal, right? Mikey doesn't want to let him in.
Uh he doesn't want to save his life. He says run, run because he wants him to escape, but at the same time, he's not gonna help him. Um and then, you know, uh Nikki is shot, and the scene, the camera sort of pans to Mikey's face, and then it goes to black.
Yeah.
Which I just think is such a brutal fucking way to end this movie. My God. Elaine May is just like, uh fuck you to the audience. Like, yeah, have have a nice have a nice dinner. Yes.
Yes, exactly. It's uh it's a class I I think, you know, to go back to the Kaufman review. I think he said that the end is is one of the most harrowing sequences ever seen in American cinema or something like that. Trevor Burrus, Jr. I don't know if I'd go that far. Trevor Burrus, Jr. I'm just telling you what Kaufman said. No, that's fine.
I'm just gonna disagree with a little bit. But but I mean he's seen more films than I have, so maybe he he he has a better sense of it. But uh I'll just say that it's it's pretty harrowing. I'll give you that. It's a tough scene to watch.
And it's a tough scene to watch, but what are you gonna do? I mean, you're not you can't let him in the house. Aaron Powell Can't let him in the house. You can't let him in the house. So the tragedy is knowing that you can't let him in the house, barricading the door, and again you have the very attractive symmetry of the first scene when when Mikey's trying to bash his way into a closed door when he gets in and Well, I mean look, he could have let him in the house.
He could have, but it would have probably cost him his own life.
Yeah. Which I don't think Nicky has quite earned at that point.
Yeah, I don't think Nicky has earned that. I don't think he has earned that.
But those are the sticks. So you're so you're you're on the floor, you're pushing the Ottomans against the door, you're not letting your you know, your best friend in. You know that means he's going to die, and yet and yet you're not going to open the door and let him in. I mean it's rough. Yeah, there's no good there's no good option here. I think Falk made the choice that he had had no option but to make.
I think that's probably right. I mean, I I think he I think I understand why he makes the choice he makes, but you feel like, especially that final shot, that this decision will haunt him for the rest of his days. Yes. That he will never be able to get over the fact that he betrayed his friend. Because, as you, as I think the Izzy reference earlier makes clear, like he's he's for all of his faults, he did see uh Nikki as kind of a brother for him.
Yes, absolutely, no doubt about it.
Yeah.
I mean, and let's also keep in mind that this entire movie takes place like over one, what is it, like an eight-hour period. It's over the middle of the night in one night. I mean, this is I I just can't say I just can't praise this movie enough. And the and the the its construction, its performances, the writing, everything about it. I'll I'll burst into song and say everything about it is appealing, but but I won't sing.
No, but I think what's interesting about this, and and I just I what I'm blown away by is she filmed 1.4 million feet of film. Yeah. Now, this is before digital, when you had it all on a computer. Like this is like the the the the film. Like you have to go through every single image. I mean, this you imagine how long it took to cut this film. It's just ridiculous. And yet, this is the like a very tight 100-minute film. Yes. There is not a lot of I don't not a lot of wasted moments in this film.
I I can't think of really any. And I think the the pacing of the film is is as you suggested, is brilliant. The sequencing is brilliant. Everything about it just works as a as a as a um uh uh a seamless, you know, uh uh product. It's just fantastic.
It's very tight. I mean, the scenes are long, but it's really for me, as I've said several times, it's a movie in three acts with really seven sequences in it. And you know, like that hotel sequence is 20 minutes long, and and then you have the and we talked about the cemetery, we talked about the street fight, all of these all of these moments. And I I do think they fit together sequentially in in a very thoughtful way.
Let's just say this is a beautiful film. I think one of the sad things here is like that Elaine May did not make more films. She clearly had a very, very talented eye, a very clear sense of direction. And she's a great writer, because this is a really tight film.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.: And she's had a good career as a writer. She wrote more screenplays, and she was a oft-sought-after script doctor, which is a very important role to play. I mean, Robert Town was for a long time more famous for his work as a script doctor than as a script writer, especially pre-Chinatown. Pre-Chinatown.
Um so yeah, so this is uh so I, you know, just to sort of to sum up here, I think this is I'd say one of the favorite films we've done. This is a hard film to love, uh, because it's such a it's such a grind. But I think this is a fantastically well done film. And with performances that are just sort of top-notch, but I think there's just there's as as I think this discussion really highlights, there's a lot of meat on the bone in this film. Yeah. There's a lot of ways to read this film.
And just as we always say on this, there's not a right answer here, right? I mean you and I have some slightly different perspectives on some of the stuff in the film. Doesn't mean we're right, it just means how we how we interpret it. And we bring out all of our own biases into these films and how how we understand them. Um great movie.
Aaron Powell And for you kids out there listening, this is not a good date movie.
Oh my God. Do not take I don't know. Is there a single Cassavetti's movie that you call a good date movie? I don't think there really is.
No, but this uh as an outside chance you can get away with love streams.
Uh uh You could maybe go with Rosemary's baby, maybe Well, but that's acting. I thought you meant right, right. It's acting. Well, this is acting too, right?
So that's true.
We did it again. We always think of this as a Cassavetti's film, right? But as far as ones he's directed, I I don't recommend that. I will say this, we do need to do a Gina Rowlands film at some point. Absolutely. Well, we are going to, as guests. As guests, this is very exciting. We're going to be on a podcast in a, I guess, a week or so with a British podcaster who wants to talk about psychology and films.
We're talking about the Woody Allen film, Another Woman, uh, a film that both of us are big fans of. Uh and I had not seen until recently, actually, for the first time. I thought I had seen it, but I had not, and I was really happy I did. It's like Gina Rowlands, who is great in it. Absolutely. And she is wonderful in so many movies. She's a wonderful actress. Anyway, uh I think that's it for today. Thank you for listening.
As always, if you are enjoying the podcast, even if you're not, hit that thumbs up button, subscribe, buy us a cup of coffee, tell us how much you're enjoying uh that 70s uh movie podcast. We'll be back next week with another film. I don't think we're gonna do a Cast of Eddie's next week. Maybe something a little lighter. It's always hard to find something light, but we'll figure it out. Don't you worry. And until then, uh, we'll see you later. Bye bye.