Today's episode of the trip Cast is sponsored by the Coalition of Education Funding and Raise your Hand Texas. Hello and welcome to the Texas Tribune trip Cast for February eighteenth, twenty twenty five. I am Matthew Watkins, editor in chief of the Texas Tribune, and as usual, we are joined by politics reporter James Bergon.
Welcome back, Matthew, Thank you.
I'm glad to be back. And also you know her as the stephen A. Smith of the Texas Tribune. Eleanor Cleveanov.
Hello, My sports knowledge is bested only by my politics knowledge.
I go away for two weeks and it's just nothing but hot sports takes the entire time.
I can't believe it.
This is as shocking to me as it is to everyone else.
And our special guest this week is our K through twelve education reporter Jadan Edison. Hey, Jaden, thanks for having me. Glad to be here, Glad to have you here. So let's talk about what happened this week. Jaden is here. We're going to talk about the hot ticket item of the legislative session, school choice school vouchers, whatever you want to call it. But first let's just look you know.
I think catching up on something we've been looking forward to for a few weeks was the announcement of House committee assignments in the State House. Dustin Burrow's doing this for the first time. People watching that to get a little bit of a sense of what kind of leader he would be. James, you covered that story. What did you see?
I did well?
He followed through on the new rules to not appoint any new Democratic chairs. It's all Republican chairs, and that of course was a big topic of conversation in the primaries and in the speakers race. He also left in place a lot of Feelin's team. A lot of senior lawmakers are either keeping their previous chairmanships like Greg bond And on Appropriations, Morgan Meyer on Ways and Means, or they got moved around to other very important committees like
Todd Hunters back on Calendars. Ken King moved up to State Affairs. That's a big promotion for him, and also got some good new blood in there. Lacey Hull, I think is worth noting she's the third term lawmaker from Houston, really went to bat for Burrows and gave a fiery nominating speech for him, and stuck with him even when she was being targeted. So she's heading a committee now. Cole Hefner also heading a committee for the first time,
like a standing committee for the first time. So, you know, it was interesting to see. I was interested to see how he would manage this. There's always the potential for the speaker to go after people who did not support him and throw sharp elbows. He didn't do that so much. He kind of gave his opponents, you know, subcommittee chairmanships. He gave John Smithy a chairmanship. He was in the running for the gavel as well. So from my read,
he's sort of kept everyone happy. I didn't see anybody super upset about the committee appointments, and so he's off to a decent start. He's got everybody calm down, and now that we've got committee appointments, we can start moving bills through the legislative process.
On the House side, it seems like the early reports on Burrows seems to be and maybe this is because this is possible because you know, we're not moving legislation yet,
we're not having to make the toughest choices. But it seems to be an idea of you know, people kind of were watching him with knives out, ready to go after him, ready to attack, and he has been trying to sort of mend those fences, whether it's with the governor, the lieutenant governor, or even members of the House, people who voted against him.
Would you agree with that.
Yeah, I mean, I think also, I mean the reality is that he's a very conservative guy. No matter how his opponents try to paint him during the speaker race, he's a pretty super conservative guy. He's much more conservative than a Speaker Feeling. Speaker Feeling has admitted that he told Evan Smith that I'd a talk at the LBJ school, so he was he was going to be a conservative guy. And I think he's going to pass conservative legislation. And
you know, he's doing the right things. He's starting right on time at ten am every day, or whenever they say they're going to gabble in, he gabbles in.
He's making you happy for that.
He's trying to he's trying to make sure that like things are running on time so that he avoids that criticism.
And you know, he's a savvy operator.
We wrote a couple of stories about him and his relationship with Dan Patrick. His relationship with Governor Abbott. He's a conservative guy, he's a savvy operator. He's trying to keep everybody happy. But you know, I think you talked about people having their knives out. He's got his own knives. He is, uh, he's he's a tough player in the legislature. So I think he's ready for all this stuff.
I mean, we've talked about this before, right but like in these fights within the Republican Party in Texas, we are again talking about like pretty you know, conservative against conservative. So the gap between you know, Burrows and some of his critics on the right is not massive ideologically, so he's got, you know, a chance. But like you said, nothing's moving yet. So right now, it's easy to start at ten am and have everybody be friends.
And the pressure will start now depending on how quickly the Voucher's bill moves and then some of the other Senate priorities, because Lieutenant Governor Patrick's already saying we're not leaving without these these bills to change how bail works here in the state. We're going to go to special sessions. So unless those things start moving through the process, I think he's going to start seeing some pressure here.
And rightfully. So, I mean they've got they've got to get going right right.
Well, one thing that they could get going on pretty quickly here is a piece of legislation to use state tax dollars to help parents pay for their private school or homeschooling expenses. This has been kind of amazingly the dominant political issue in Texas, particularly around the Capitol for more than two years now. There's the individual kind of fight over this, which Abbott has sort of staked his claim on and has made his top legislative issue at least.
He spends a lot of energy on the border as well, but has been able to kind of take action on that independent of the legislature. And this has been such an issue that it has really in these past two years not just been a issue of substance in politics in terms of policy, but also really serve to reshape the Texas legislature in a lot of different ways that we can really go into. Jaden is here to talk about that with us, and I want to start right by saying where we stand. So the Senate has passed
SB two already. This is what we are calling the school Voucher's Bill. It is now time for the House to take it up. Dustin Burrough aforementioned Dustin Burrows appeared on stage with Greg Abbott over the Long weekend over the holiday weekend, essentially saying, you know, we're going to introduce a measure in the House and we're going to move on that and it will pass as well. So we're looking at a situation we can kind of get into whether we all believe that to be true or not.
There are some doubters at least still in that realm. But Jaden, I want to just start by having you sort of explain to us what this bill would actually do. Let's start with SB two, that's the one that has passed the Senate. Tell us what this program is, what it would mean for the state.
Right, Well, it only took I did the math last week. It took the Senate twenty two days from the start of the session to pass the bill. So that speaks to someone of the urgency that they've tried to move with. But particularly this bill is really interesting, right. I think the premise of it is, you know, allowing the use of a tend to up to right now, the basis
to thousand dollars per student per year. For a family to be able to, you know, obviously use taxpayer dollars to fund their children's private school tuition through you know, what we all know is education savings accounts, right other you know, people in education policies fas think of that is like it's basically like a voucher plus system, right where you know, there are particulars about you know how you know families you know receive the money, but for
all intents and purposes, you know, they're they're the same, right. And so that's the base. And then that has additional allocations for for students with disabilities and also sets aside roughly about two thousand dollars per year per student for homeschooling families, right. And so that's to a piece a lot of the homeschooling you know, groups who in recent years have come out and kind of wanted to be included in these programs.
So that's the base of it.
Where I found where I found it really interesting, and we're kind of a lot of my attention is kind of right now is you know, there are certain provisions in the bill that anticipates perhaps you know, a scenario where if demandate exceeds funding, then now we have to figure out kind of who to prioritize, right, And the way the bill is currently structured is they would prioritize the overwhelming majority of those spots for students from two groups, right,
students with disabilities and then students who come from households, you know, who live at or below five hundred percent of the federal poverty line.
Right.
Where that gets really interesting is that federal poverty that that using that definition, which they define as a low income household would mean families up to around roughly one hundred and sixty thousand dollars a year, depending on if you use the twenty four guidelines or the twenty five guidelines, right, And so that's really interesting, and this created this kind of tension in the you know, I would say more
so obviously from the Democrats. This has been a huge talking point on the floor and then the public hearing at the committee level of if this is a program that's going to priory, you know, prioritize students from low income families and students with disabilities, and you're creating a prioritization system where students on the wealth you're in of a spectrum, you know, are basically and you know, treated the same as a family who is on free or
reduced lunch, for example, which is significantly you know, uh lower, that's that's about one hundred and thirty to one hundred and eighty five percent of federal poverty, right, so significantly lower for a household of for you know, then how are we how is it that we're pushing this in the name of kind of low income families and students with disability. So that's been the real tension. But I will say that generalize general that generalizes kind of what
the bill is. And then obviously, you know, there's conversations about accountability. You know, it does require, for example, that participating in private schools have to take what's known as a nationally norm reference test, so that's basically the SAT or the ACT, right, but no requirement they take the STAR. And so that's also been kind of a point of contention, as you know, public schools are saying we wanted even
playing field. You're going to you know, implement this program, and so those are some of the I can pause here, but that's kind of generally speaking, a lot of the things that folks are talking about right now.
I want to get into some of the details of that some of the criticisms of this, but let so it's first just sort of take a step back, James and tell me make the case for me as it has been made by proponents, you know, Avid in particular of why the state needs this.
Well, I think the main argument, and Jayden you can jump in, but I think they are saying that they are upset with public schools, particularly public schools that are in low income areas, that have not been as successful as they could be for many, many years, and they're saying those kids should be able to have options to go to other schools, including private schools, and that really any parent should be able to take their kid out of their school that they're zoned to or that they
go to that's paid by public dollars and take that money that they pay into the state and spend it on the school of their choice.
That I think is the argument.
Of course, private school a lot more expensive than the ten dollars ten thousand dollars.
Voucher that they are going to get, but that that is a proposal.
Yeah, you know, it was interesting I was watching last night. Governor Abbot was in San Antonio, on the stage at a Christian private school out there out that way. He shared the stage with Dustin Borough Speaker Boroughs and also public education share Brad Buckley, and so it was really those were also interested to tune in to see because it was the first time kind of I've been able to see that dynamic on the same I was wondering
if they threw out any nuggets. You know, they're pretty upfront sometimes in those kind of events where they talk about things that are kind of forthcoming. But one of the main takeaways that that that was really interesting to me is you know, uh, you know, Governor Abbot talked a little bit about kind of you know, frustration with you know, and what a lot of conservatives have deemed kind of quote unquote you know left wing and doctrine nation,
you know, of schools. You know, he cited you know, you know recent you know news that came out about uh, you know, a situation at in bell Or High School where in Houston where basically you know, there was you know, teachers who were you know, basically abiding by a student's request to you know use different you know pronouns or
something along those lines and whatnot. And he cited that is an example of kind of the problems that he sees within public schools that he sees kind of this voucher program as a solution to.
Right.
So I said to say, is yeah, right, we've heard a lot about kind of academic outcomes and we know, naturally right, like public schools, I mean schools are people are struggling to rebound from you know, the brunt of
the COVID nineteen pandemic. But making there's there's no secret about it that this this also has to do with kind of overall frustration with the direction you know, you know, this feeling and I think a lot you know, after George Floyd's murder, you saw a lot of promises from these public institutions that came out, including public schools, We're going to do better. Right, we need to do better in areas of diversity, equity and inclusion.
Right.
And in my view, right this movement in some ways right, And I think the governor's frame of this way is kind of pushed back to that's gone too far, right, And so you know, this is a solution that he sees, you know, to being able to push back and to you know, offer and he's at a Christian school, you know, So this is all happened at the same time where we're seeing state officials push for more you know, you know,
religious components, Christianity in particular in public schools. But also he's making a lot of these kind of talking points, you know, in the background of schools that have a particular Christian focus. So a lot of couple interesting dynamics. That's that's also, I.
Mean, that is a political argument that sort of is uh, it's it's a very smart political argument by proponents to make d EI the bad guy, the boogeyman. But I mean the other thing is that some private institutions that would benefit from this also have DEI programs and they have DEI coordinators, right. But this is I just want to be clear about this. This is like more of a political talking point rather than what the original intense I guess quote unquote was, which was to have like
better academic outcomes for kids. There there's now a conversation about de EI, the DEI boogeyman and indoctrinating kids as opposed to like what the actual academic outcomes are and what would improve academic outcomes for kids.
It's a smart I mean it's a smart political point.
I mean this has been like a long like it's Bouchers and getting public funding into private schools has been like a longstanding conservative issue that has taken different forms throughout like going back to you know when we started sort of seeing schools get integrated after Brown view board of education, Like this has taken different forms, that has had different political underpinnings, you know, anti DEI last session, I think a lot of the conversation and still now
but was around you know, sort of the boogeyman of or the sort of talking point of parents' rights and parents have, you know, the right to sort of direct their children's education and these other things that we see, you know, political catchphrases like you said, smart political advertising of an issue that has taken different forms, but it's been a priority nonetheless.
But if a teacher at a public school is a transgender person and they're teaching your kid math, and your kid learns math one way or the other, like it really, I mean it doesn't matter, right if we're just talking about academic outcomes. But what they don't like is the social aspect of this, the DEI part of this.
Yeah, I mean, I think the pandemic may have really changed this conversation, right, because, as you point out, this has been something people have been advocating for a long time. I mean, the founding of the Texas Public Policy Foundation, the major kind of think tank in this state, dates back to the eighties and this was really the main
issue of the person who founded it. And you know, I've been here long enough here covering the capital, paying attention to the capital to be able to remember those sort of every two years, those rallies on the capital steps, people wearing yellow scarves calling for school choice, and they would pass the same it and wouldn't really go anywhere. And I think, you know, the pandemic and the murder of George Floyd, which in many ways, you know the
social movement that arose after that. Many ways those two
things are connected. I think put a lot of fear in a lot of parents' minds, particularly conservative minds, a feeling of sort of lack of control, right, whether it's I can't send my kid or I don't like my kid wearing a mask at school, and like all these rules that were put in place, and then yes, all this fear about like is are the is what it being taught taught at school is sort of getting ahead or you know, going too far from what I'm comfortable with.
And I think that message of you can have some more control, Like there was a lot of even just like in my with my kids in my public schools, the when we all sort of came back to school, there was all this sort of nervousness among parents about like what kind of the control they have over their kids' education and what they can do, and whether that's the motivating factor for Abbot and some of these other
folks are not. It's you know, it's the old raw and manual quote don't let a good crisis go to waste. And this has created an opportunity like never before for this to finally pass.
The money helps too, I mean talking about people, right, jeff yas right. I think he correct me if I'm wrong. The biggest single political donation and is in state history with the I think when he made the six or seven million dollar donation years ago, right, so you know,
make no mistake. I mean you talk about the kind of national connection this has been brewing for for for decades in the making, where you know, I read a profile from Jeffs in Philadelphia, and it was just really interesting that he seems to be very kind of very private person, so for him to do kind of an
extended interview was really interesting. But he just talked about kind of you know, this mindset of you know, if public schools aren't you know, serving children in the way you know that he thinks is you know best per se, then they should shut down.
Right.
So you know these are people you know, Abbit has a lot of a reason, you know, you know from before REPUBLICA and US, you know, we did some good reporting on this, you know before you know, before this wasn't really an issue that Governor Abbitt was, you know, it was top of mind for him, right, but then you start to see more of those dollars pour in, and you know, you make whatever connections you will from that, but it certainly plays a huge factor and kind of
you know, this rising to the top of kind of the priority list for.
A lot of these politicians.
I just want to put a fine point on this, but Governor Abbot has always been an advocate for vouchers. He's been at those school choice rallies since twenty fifteen when he was so since he was elected governor, he has not been as vocal. Obviously, we talked about this in theory.
It hasn't been his.
Top priority in seventeen, seventeen, or nineteen or even twenty one.
It really became an issue in twenty three.
And I think it's to your point, Matthew, which is that the pandemic put a lot of nervousness in a lot of parents. There also was legislation passed in a lot of other states, and so then the school choice advocates are saying, well, how come we can't get it done here in Texas, which is they like to argue the most conservative state. So that puts pressure on Abbot, it puts pressure on the state legislature, and now we're seeing pressure from national figures like Elon Musk and Donald
Trump to get this done. But that's a little bit of like sort of the context around this.
I was like, we as you mentioned, pro Public and the Texas Tribune has done a lot of reporting on the voucher fight, and we had a story I think last year that was like, Texas is the largest GOP state to not pass about your program, which is also just funny because we're just the largest GOP state. So the minute we do pass it, we become the largest state to have done it. But yeah, we've been a holdout, and I think that's you know, we've been the crown jewel. That's the term thing.
I will tell you.
It's interesting, I mean, because there are a lot of states that have passed this. I was talking with someone a few moving Pennsylvania and yeah, it will Vermont.
You know.
I was talking to someone in Vermont, a you know, the state of Bernie Sanders, right, and talking about how this was the dominant issue in Texas, and they were just kind of like, it is crazy to me that Texas has not passed this, Vermont has this measure. So, you know, that's been an interesting thing to watch as well. Jaden,
you said the money has affected this. I actually thought you were going to go in a different direction with that, because another way that this has been made possible is because the state has a lot of money to spend, right, And one of the best strongest political arguments against this is that it's going to take money away from public schools.
But what we've had these past two legislative sessions is enough money in the surplus to be able to say, we're not going to touch your funding formulas, but we are going to bring in this extra pot of money that will go towards supporting these measures. But there's been a pretty big back and forth in recent days and weeks among particularly between Greg Abbott and Democrats about whether this bill SB two does or does not defund public schools.
Can you help help us sort of navigate this issue and in the sides of both sides here.
Yeah, you know, this is this is one of the things I find really interesting, right, It at a very basic of I'll start here, right, public schools in Texas
are primarily funded by attendance. So if you're just basically looking at if you look at the simple fact of there are and that will be probably if this program passes, they're going to be public school students who leave their public school to attend a private school under this particular program, then by definitely, I mean technically public schools are going
to lose money. And if you look at the kind of analysis by the Legislative Budget Board, I believe who does the analyzes on these they you know, in collaboration
with the TEA. I believe they they look at they make predictions on kind of generally speaking, how many students you know, may leave, right, And it's in the I think it's maybe in the hundreds of thousand, a couple hundred thousand or so, as they predicted the first year, so I have to fact check myself, but nonetheless, a considerable number of public school students who will leave to go. So by that definition, yes, I think, you know, it's a fact that public schools will lose out on money.
Now there's the second part, which is what Governor Abbott is kind of referencing, is, yes, there's a you know, a pot of money, you know, you know the school that public schools, you know that funds public schools. And what they're saying is that we're pulling this from the
you know, a different you know, pot of money. And so he's basically made the point he talked about this last night too, is basically you're saying that, you know, we fund infrastructure that's pulling from public schools, right, And that's not the case. But the surplus becomes really interesting. You was just talking to another reporter about this too. It's like, how long is this state going to be operating?
You know, where you have all of these additional dollars available to you, right from a surfplus standpoint, right, like the program as predicted by the budget Board talks about the cost of this program soaring to I think more than four and a half billion dollars by the year twenty thirty, right, And so are you able to maintain that?
We'll also keeping up with the needs of public schools, which are constitutionally obligated to fund, and that also includes you know, students with disabilities and special education services, all these things at the state historically has already struggled to fund, right, And so I think that's kind of it. And then you get to kind of you know, the government recently,
it's been really interesting to see him. He and his social media team have obviously been very aware of some of these talking points because he's been responding directly to lawmakers and advocates and you know about some of the
funding talking points. I think a lot of the frustration from a lot of the public school advocates, you know, and the you know folks who are you know, pushing against this program has to do with the fact that there was I think it was the big omnibus House bill that didn't pass in twenty twenty three, you know, had what seven billion dollars in new funds attached to it that didn't pass, and a part of that would have been a raise to the base amount of money
that schools will see per student. And since then, in the last couple of years, we've seen you know, school closures like to deficits at high rates, right, We've seen I mean, you know, there's been you know cuts to you know, federal funding as it relates to special education services. Right, So there are all these things going on. So hopefully that gets to the specific answer to your question. But
I just think it's a sore. There's truth to each thing if you look at it, you know, a little bit more deeply.
But go ahead, go ahead.
So no, I was gonna say, But to me, I always go back to the fact that if you just look at the basic fact that you know, public schools are funded by this metric. This metric is going to drastically change if public school students leave to go to private school and so by definition you're going to have public schools that lose out on additional funding.
But also the way that they're funding it. The argument is like, okay, just to make it real simple. If the state has ten dollars to give out, right, and they're giving out four dollars to public schools right now, the governor is basically saying, we're going to keep giving them four dollars, but we're also going to give one dollar to private school vouchers. Right, So that's a total of five dollars for education, but that's also a dollar
extra that could have gone to public education five. So I just want to be like really intellectually honest about what we're discussing here, because you can spend it however way you want it, Like the governor's team is obviously spending his way, Democrats and public school advocates are going to spend their way. But I want to be honest for the audience about like the funding and.
Like how how we're talking about it, and like they can make people can make up their minds.
About it, but that that is essentially what is happenings.
There's a finite amount of dollars, a.
Finite amount of dollars, and there's a decision being made by the legislature and the governor on how that money is going to be spent, and it will affect public schools and private schools one way or the other.
And there's a constitutional obligation to make sure that public schools are adequately funded, right, And so that's part of it. Is like, you know, regardless, you know, if you're saying that you're you're putting you know, more money into something that's educational related, the question becomes, why can't that go into public schools? You know, are struggling in many different ways. But I also think the interesting point is that everybody
seems to be operating from a different set of facts. Right, Like if you talk to the governor's office, they're going to tell you, well, we funded you know, public schools provide more money than we ever have in history, right, and the Statesman just there, you know, some really good reporting on this, and we've been talking about this as well. Here is you know, when you adjust that for inflation, it tells a completely different story. And so even the
everybody seems to be operating from it exactly right. You know, Texas, when it comes to per student funding, you know, Rakes, I don't have a number on top of my head, but we're really low. And when it comes to teacher salaries, thirtieth in the nation. Right, So there, you know, there are real concerns that that haven't been addressed, and there is that feeling of you know, this is the this is the system right here that five and a half million children to tend.
This should be the primary focus.
Two things can be true in that they are the highest that they've ever been and that also Texas falls behind other states in how how much we're funing.
Yeah, all right, let's pause for a second, and here from our sponsors. We have two messages from our sponsors today. First, Coalition for Education Funding joined thousands on Saturday. Join thousands on Saturday, February twenty. Second, from eleven to one for the Save Texas School's rally at the Texas Capital. Fun Texas Schools now. Find information at Save Txschools dot org and raise your hand. Texas public schools are at the
center of our democracy. Raise your hand. Texas believes the future prosperity of our state, our economy, communities, and citizenry hinges on the success of every public school, school, leader, educator, and child. Learn more at Raise Yourhand Texas dot org slash get dash involved. All right, so we're talking about
limited amounts of money here. I mean, another area where there are finite amounts of money is just a billion dollars currently being allocated in both proposed budgets from the House and the Senate to support vouchers ten thousand dollars per student. If you add up the math, if you were to give that to every student currently in private school right now, it would not be nearly enough. The a billion dollars would not be nearly enough to cover
that group. You talked a little bit about how they prioritize here, but ultimately we're talking about a very strong possibility that quickly supply will outpace demand. What do the supporters sorry, demand will outplace pace.
The funding available exactly exactly.
Yes, what do the people who are advocating these bills, whether it's Avid, the authors or anything like that, how do they address that concern? And what are they talking at all about what the next step will be if that if it plays out in that way that we.
Just described, right, well, I think Senator Creighton, Brandon Creighton, who chairs This and Education Committee and is carrying the bill on the Senate, really I mean it goes back to what we're talking about with the proposed lottery system, right and you know, to answer your question directly, right, he talked, you know, he's gotten questions about, Okay, you're saying that this is going to prioritize low income families
and students with disabilities. In the event that this scenario plays out where the man exceeds funding, then you know, if this is going to do that, then why do we have such generous kind of flexibility within that lottery system itself?
Right? And he's he's.
Going on the record and said publicly, right like, we don't want to exclude the middle class, right, we want to make sure that families who whether they you know, have a child who's you know, being bullied in a public school, or you know, whether there's any kind of frustration they have, they have flexibility for this. He brings up the scenario of a teacher and a firefighter with
four kids. He's like, we want to make sure that you know, they are able to access this program as they kind of you know work you know, essential jobs in the community. Right, they should also have have you know, you know, this particular access. But you know it goes back to you know, one thing I you know, want to bring up here, which is really you know, interesting to me is because we can get caught up in eligibility conversations about who access is this, so on and
so forth. Right, there's a difference between eligibility and access. And at the end of the day, let's say you're a family that gets through the prioritization system, you go to a private school, and the private school says you don't meet our standards academically whatever it may be, so
we don't accept you. I have not seen the answer to the questions of what happens after that, right, because if this is all about helping these students, you know, in other states, for example, you've seen in the past where some you know, private schools that participate have to have certain enrollment requirements, right like you have to, you know, but that doesn't seem to exist in the in the
bills that currently kind of stand. And what we've seen in other programs across the state, over overwhelmingly with these universal programs, that the vast majority of users end up being kids who are already in private school, right, who are whose families could already afford private tools, private school tuition, and excuse me to some extent, and so to me that that brings forth the question of you know, Senator Creating has talked a lot about you know, this bill.
We're trying to learn from all of the other mistakes that you know that other states have made, you know, as a relates to this program. But the way the program is structured in the bill right now, as a reporter who's like look breaking down this stuff, I'm really struggling to see how from an access standpoint, Texas is going to be that much different from the way the other programs operate. As it relates to who benefits from these programs the most well, and a lot.
Of private schools cost far more than ten thousand dollars a year. So a lot of these, I mean, to your point, like a you know, a low income family that wants to send their child to a private school if that private school is twenty five thousand dollars a year, as some of these you know schools are like having fifteen thousand, right, fifteen thousand dollars or a year of
a bill is not accessible. And so I think, as you said, in other states, we've certainly seen the people who are able to take advantage of this are people who are already accessing those and you know, to act. A huge sticking point in Texas on this has been the rural communities or there are no private schools, and so you know those areas are teachers Yeah right, yeah, like they're not seeing that they're not you know, sort of citing the same issues that maybe people in urban
areas are with their public schools. But then you know they're not gonna be able, not gonna send their kids two hours to a private school.
And what are also to I would I would you know, I pose the question too is like, ultimately, if this past is, what are the characteristics of the private schools that choose to participate, right, because we've seen in other states, is some of the private schools that you know, you might deem kind of the best, right, whatever metric you might use to define that, they don't participate because they're probably like you know, we're already find so and we've
seen you know, some like for example, Governor Ava had a press conference in maybe after the election, but he had a press conference at a Christians uh yeah, Christian school that was on the verge of closing in recent years.
Right.
So also it becomes a question of like the quality of the actual education that comes into and what we've seen. This is one thing that that kind of I guess frustrates me as somebody who's like trying to like wrap
my head around all this stuff. Is we hear a lot about academic outcomes, and what we've seen with these universal programs is that, I mean, you look at the state like Louisiana, it's pretty common knowledge from you know, pro vout your folks, anti vulture folks, academic results were abysmal in that state at one point, as you tied it to as you looked at kind of public school outcomes, you know, relative cases of performance on kind of centered
our tests and relatives to what they did in public school, right, abysmal. Right, And so then the metric of how we define, you know, whether this program is successful or not has started to change. Now it becomes about it's not about academic outcomes. In was about parental satisfaction, right, for parents happy about it.
Right.
So I just think there are a lot of these kind of I know that kind of goes a little bit maybe off of kind of what we were talking about, but I just think it's really interesting overall when we talk about ultimately who's going to access these programs, and then how do we measure whether the programs actually live up to the promises that officials are making.
Could we just all right, I just want to take it a step back and also acknowledge that there are problems with public schools.
Right there are public schools.
There are public schools that have been failing in the state for a long time, and that is a frustration of conservatives, and it is a frustration of parents. It's a frustration of low income parents because they want the best for their kids. If they could afford private school,
maybe they would consider private school. But as a former low income kid who went to a not good public school, to your point, Jaden, unless it was like a Catholic school that was tied to the churches that like kids in my neighborhood went to, we didn't know any other private schools, and we had no idea how to get an application to one of these schools, and we probably wouldn't have been accepted to these schools because.
The jump is just so big.
So I think I just want to acknowledge the fact that there are problems with the public education system that conservatives are rightly I think, upset about. But it's the details and like how do we answer these things? And some of these things, I don't think that SB two is going to be the definitive thing.
Right, we're waiting for the House bill.
Maybe some of these questions get answered in the House bill and it looks a little bit different because that was the sticking point, right, the House was a sticking point, And there are new legislators who are more open to a voucher system. But everyone keeps saying the devil is in the details, and what are those details? And I mean, hopefully we'll find out in the next couple of weeks.
I mean, I do think there's like somewhat bipartisan, longstanding bipartisan agreement, right that like their public schools need you know, there's different ways that public schools are not serving communities in the way that ideally exactly right. It's like we agree on that. Like almost everything in Texas, almost everything in politics, we agree on the problem. There's two hugely different approaches solution, right, the conservative approach tends look more
like Boucher's. The other side would say, like, just give that money into the public schools. Right, if you take let people leave, you were never going to fix the public schools, and you're just going to have the people who can't who don't know.
How We've seen privatization have that impact on other parts of asolutely.
Yeah, right, I mean, it is a conservative belief that the free market leads to improved outcomes for customers, right and right now, the conservative case for this would be that there are a lot of kids who are stuck in schools that are not performing well that essentially have a monopoly over the students in that system. You are creating a system where they might now have some money attached to them, which could create new schools to possibly
pop up to serve those communities. You're also putting some financial market pressure on the schools that are already in place to improve in ways that may not have existed before.
But I think even Republicans will argue like that, you know, there are charter schools that have been set up to address this kind of thing too, and right.
It was been like trying to fix this for a long time. I think the counter argument, right is like, if you the free market, you know, public school is inherently built to be public, we serve everyone. You potentially hollow out those public schools. You leave only the people that sort of don't get into the private schools or can't access a private school. That's solving the problem for individuals, maybe not for the public. So these are two different approaches the exact same problem.
Okay, So go ahead, I was gonna say, I mean,
there's a couple of things. There's a lot there, but you don't have to answer everything is this is the things that keep me up at night, right, And you know you have to look at you know, there's a couple of things, right, because there is a there is a narrative out there and depending on how you judge a public school, right, that that public schools are you know, feeling, aren't you know, you know we know that you know from star scores and national tests, right, there have been
you know, struggles for students and uh, you know, schools
to rebound. Right, you know the one thing I think about often, right, and I go back to history, right, because if you look, first of all, we're talking about an educational system where you know, largely has struggle to even fully integrate, right overall resistance to those things, right, And so you're talking about generations of low income families who are predominantly black and brown who have struggled to catch up because of those institutional barriers you know that
are in place, right, And so you know that's one thing I think about. But you know, also you know, as we talk about kind of you know, the meaning that the institutions and you know, how we judge public schools also differs. Right, if you ask the Texas Education Agency, you ask Governor Abbott, you know even you know, you look at Houston, I Z and Superintendent Mike Miles, Right, he's a very interesting guy. You know, read about him and then talk to him once you know everything that
he looks at is all driven by the standardized testing scores. Right, And I would I would, I would venture out to say, right, there are public schools out here that are that function in so many more ways, particularly in our rural communities, right, but in urban as well, Right, that function in so many more ways to try to meet the moment and making meet for students.
Right.
I know of a rural school district that literally has implemented washing machines to wash clothes for kids because they're struggling with chronic apsenteeism. And you know, students, I show up the class and one reason they know is like maybe they don't have clean clothes or adequate resources at home, right, And so I just think we as a general public right have to understand that, you know, standardized testing scores as a result of no Child Left behind the policy as we look at nationally.
Right, all we talk about is a.
Test, but there are so many more factors that go into whether or not a public school is meeting the moment. And I bet you you know, you go on the ground, you actually talk to kind of lower income family and
families that struggle. Right, there are things that public schools are doing right now, particularly as it relates to you know, you know, students with disabilities or whatever it may be, that you know, services and uh, you know, benefits that they can't find elsewhere because of you know, uh you know, whether it be private school or whatever it may be.
So I just think that's in.
Some ways a public school. You know, part of its value is that it does it is there right, It serves everyone. It is before care, aftercare, It allows parents to you know, go to work. Like there is some inherent underlying value to that that private schools also have value, but are not you know, they're not saying we are we open our doors for everybody.
And it's not even just a Texas like.
Nationally, that's the promise of public school And.
I was going to say, too, have we seen a educational system in the country, right, Texas included where public schools actually have all the resources they need, right, because to me it becomes interesting.
Right and.
Right, But I meant the city in those places you could argue that the advantage is less what resources the schools have, but more the resources the parents have and the ability to read to their kids and some proper nutrition and yeah, and and like yeah, you know, the it's hard to separate those things when we're so divided by income and other factors.
So in the end them is everything.
Exactly Okay, So I want to I want to get I want to drill into what's still to be figured out here because I think the two chambers are in agreement right around how much they want to spend. Right, it seems like we've we've sort of zeroed in on this ten thousand base amount right that that parents would
provide the sticking points. The things that need to be ironed out, It seems like, are what if any accountability measures are in place, right, and and basically, how do you prioritize when you reach the inevitable point when demand outpaces supply? Right? Are those Are there other things that need to be figured out between those two that are that that feel major to you?
Yeah?
I mean the one thing I'm looking out for, you know, and we're expecting this week. Uh, you know, Speaker Borroughs talked about you know, they're going to follow their priority Priority bill this week, right, and so what'll be interesting to me. Obviously they'll wrestle a little bit over you know, be interesting to see kind of you know, what they
allocate per year per student. But to me, it goes back to kind of the prioritization, right, because the one thing I thought about is like, you have some of the kind of more rule lawmakers who maybe the five hundred percent of poverty thresholders not fly with them, right, Like maybe you know, they have a better understanding of you know, we have you know, families in our community who are really struggling. And so that was one thing
that I kind of aplied early on. It's like, it'll be interesting to see kind of what the competing like, how they kind of you know, think about that particularly as it relates to also special education and students with disabilities.
Right.
You know, one thing that that you know, I found is a really interesting nugget. I was listening to speaker Boroughs talk to some you know, civic leaders and Austin a couple of weeks ago, and you know, he kind of revealed how, you know, he has children with learning disabilities, right, and so he talked about getting it right with special education. We're gonna the House is gonna lead the way on this, right.
And so, but the one thing to watch out for with that though, is like Senator Cragon on the other hand, he's been very reluctant to to to impose any particular requirements on private schools in these particular programs.
Right.
He wants them to have kind of the flexibility and the freedom to kind of operate, you know, as they as they feel they need to write. And so again, I don't know that it'll be It'll be in the details, right.
You talk about doublin details of kind of what the things are, but those are those are things that immediately come to mind as to kind of what are the kind of differing you know, details that may come up between each chamber that could potentially be kind of points that they need to iron out together.
So we are talking about seventy eight seventy nine, as Abbot calls them, heart vouch your support hardcore. You know, there's and there's been some some folks who would fall under that hardcore camp who have quivvled with different details and things like that. There are people who you talk to in the legislature right now who still believe that there are major roadblocks to this happening.
Right.
You go one way, you lose some votes, You go the other way, you lose some votes. Is that magical thinking, James.
I think they're going to get something done.
I think they'll have to sort out some of these issues, particularly like on special education because you can see sort of from Senator Creighton's point, you don't want to impose a new requirement on these private schools that don't previously have these requirements.
Right.
But at the same time, if the House is really invested in making sure that kids with special needs also have access to to this program, then they're going to have to sort something out. And I think there's going to be more sorting on accountability standards. But I do think that the votes are there, the pressure from the governors there, the pressure from other places are there. I
think they'll figure out something to get done. It's just like, what does that look like in the end, And I don't think that it's going to be everything that's in the Senate buil that passed.
All right, Eleanor I'm going to direct the last question to you, and it's going to be maybe a hard question.
We'll see.
But this was the number one issue on avis radar last legislative session. The House succeeded in blocking it due to rural Republicans and Democrats. The impact of that so far has been billions of dollars in funding that would have gone to the schools that didn't, the ousting of many rural Republicans, the election of what I think we could all agree is the most politically conservative Texas House
in state history. The emergence of Greg Abbott as really like Greg Abbott sort of finding his voices in the right word, his power right in the way that he I think wields more influence over the legislature than he has in his entire time, and uh, you know, strikes fear in members of the legislature in a way beyond any other time, and that he's he's served in an office.
How can we not view the decision of you know, particularly opponents, particularly the Democrat side of those opponents as a to block it in twenty twenty three as anything beyond just a complete disaster and a thing that has completely backfired on their party and what they want to see the state accomplished as a whole overall.
Yeah, I mean, this is the I think forever balance that we see from the Democrats and people who are interested in blocking sort of the Republican agenda in Texas that they have to play, which is like, if we stop this thing, is there just a worse thing waiting behind the next corner. And recently it seems like yes, right, I mean we've seen that with the voting legislation, with abortion legislation with them, you know, obviously with school of vouchers.
It's like the Republican machine on the issues that they choose to prioritize seems to at this point to overstate it. I'm sure, like have no limit, right, Like they can just like run like a train right down the track and if there's something in their way, it might take them longer, but they will get there ultimately. So yeah, it's a I think it's very hard to be a minority party for this long and not look back and
think like, did we the things we block? Did they not just like cause something worse down the road from their perspective?
Right?
Well, any any like you want to talk about, like the impact on high school sports sports question?
I was like, I have reached the end. I will just say, like, Jayden, you, I mean, when did you started on this beat? Relatively recently, but man, you know a lot. When did you start?
I started here in June. Yeah, I was covering like criminal justice before. So it's amazing some intersection, but not obviously as much.
Well, it has been great to have you on. We really appreciate you lending your insight. Thank you also to our sponsors, the Coalition of Education Funding and Raise your Hand Texas. Thank you to our producer Chris No. Thank you to our producer Rob who was in Japan. He abandoned Chris all.
That like a business trip board.
That's just like, yeah, when he comes back, we'll get him to do a full segment on the trip.
Rob is also the composer of our trip cast theme. Do you think he's performing the theme in Japan? The fans are.
Asking, so our Japanese audience.
All right, thanks I we'll talk to you all next week.
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