An Exclusive with John Cornyn

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What I think and the truth, I've always believed that that's the only way I can really operate and have a clean conscience and be able to sleep at night. But no, I'm the same old guy. that the voters have elected 19 different times in various contested elections. and exclusive with Senator John Cornyn.

Welcome to The Texas Take. I'm Jeremy Wallace of the Houston Chronicle and the San Antonio Express News. And as I told you in the last program, I had a sit-down interview with Senator John Cornyn where we talked about a lot of different issues. of course, has been the United States Senator since 2002. But as he seeks re-election in 2026, he's in a very different position. He's the underdog, and by a lot.

Almost every poll out there has shown that Senator John Cornyn is trailing Texas Attorney General Ken Paxson, who is trying to defeat him in the GOP primary. What can John Cornyn do to reverse all that? And is he at risk of going too far? to courting Trump supporters, in other words, going so MAGA that he starts losing the people who put him into office in the first place. You'll hear John Cornyn push back against that. He will insist in this interview that he has always been the guy.

he is today and that nothing has changed in his politics. But you be the judge. Obviously, within this redistricting fight in which the Democrats fled the state, he had a lot of people wondering if he was going more Trump. when he called on the FBI to go after the Texas Democrats who had fled the state to break up the redistricting plan. We'll also get into the big, beautiful bill. In that legislation... Cornyn got two key victories that he likes to point to. First of all, he

was the one who helped get $13.5 billion in the Big Beautiful Bill to reimburse Texas for border spending during the Biden administration. In addition, he played an essential role in getting... one of the space shuttles moved to Texas so it can be on display in Houston. We'll get into all of that. Without further ado, let's get to the interview.

I want to thank you for being on the Texas Tech podcast. First of all, you already have some news here breaking about the letter you sent to the Department of Justice in relation to the Democrats who have fled the state. What are you asking for in this letter and what do you want to see happen from the Department of Justice standpoint on this? Well, ultimately, we want the runaway legislators to come back to work. I mean, that is the ultimate goal.

But we want to point out the jeopardy they are potentially in for receiving all this essentially gratuities and fundraising from. PACs and other entities, including George Soros, Beto O'Rourke, that could raise a multitude of issues for them in terms of gifts. that are impermissible under state law, potentially even for bribery charges.

I asked Prakash Patel to look at this, the FBI director, and of course he agreed to do it. I think the investigation is important. I'm just talking about what could potentially be an issue for them. All of this is designed to put pressure on them to come back home and do their job. I'm getting so much...

pushback from Democrats. You know, Hakeem Jeffries was on Morning Joe yesterday with Gene Wu, and they said to have, you know, John Cornyn of all the people, the person who had presented himself for years as somebody who could work with Democrats, to be this. guy, to be the guy who's going after Democrats and trying to work with them, to try to go after the Democrats in this way, in a very partisan way. He said that, and then Colin Allred said something interesting to see.

Me yesterday when I was talking to him for the podcast, we were talking about like you were a guy that he used to think he could work with when he was in Congress. He said, I could work with John Korn. He worked on some great stuff after Uvalde. We worked with him. But now he's become. a partisan bootlicker, kind of like Ken Paxton. And so it raises a question, and I think there's one piece to it. I know they have hyperbole in what they're asking there, but have you changed your approach?

In order to fit into this MAGA Republican universe in a way that doesn't quite feel like you over the last 20 years? Well, I haven't changed a bit. I've always been a law and order guy. Judge for 13 years, attorney general for four, and obviously work on the Judiciary Committee with Ted Cruz and very much engage in law enforcement-related issues. But I would say to the Colin Allreds and the Hakeem Jeffries, they're the ones that started this fight by fleeing the state.

and denying a quorum to the Speaker so that they could do the work that Governor Abbott set out for them to do, including deal with some of the... problems associated with the flooding in Kerrville in central Texas that took many innocent lives. All of that has been shut down, not just the redistricting, because they decided to cut and run.

which is pretty un-Texan to do. I mean, if you've got a difference of opinion, you need to stand and fight. And I've always been for robust political debate. And then we count the votes and see who wins. But this is who I am. If you get reelected, then are you going to be— Less likely to work with Democrats going forward. Are you done working with Chris Murphy on legislation? Are you done working with these guys or are you going to be more Ted Cruz, I guess, in your approach? I'm always looking.

for opportunities to work with anybody who will do things that are helpful to my constituents, the 31 million people of Texas, and the country generally.

And so those are the areas where I'm always available to work with them. But on something like this, which is obviously very political, very partisan, there is nothing more political. than redistricting, because it's a matter of who's got the votes to draw the districts that enhance the representation of Republicans in the state to reflect the changes in our population and our politics.

And that's not something you're going to be able to work with Democrats on. So you're 100% fine with doing this redistricting right now, no matter how these maps go. together. Yeah, I think, you know, the first cut, of course, will be with the legislature. And once Governor Abbott signs it into law, then there'll be lawsuits, which there always are.

But I go way back on this topic. I was the chairman of the Legislative Redistricting Board in 2000. This is a very, very contentious issue, even among Republicans. Because I can guarantee all the incumbent congressmen are not entirely excited about having their districts change and having to run in a new congressional district. But they understand that. it's more important to have Republicans represented in congressional districts that reflect the way Texas voters vote.

It seems like all 25 Republicans in Congress right now will have a piece of Austin by the time this map is done. I've looked at some of these drawings. Like you said, some of the Republicans are a little nervous. You're stretching the district from San Angelo to Pflugerville. Yeah, it's amazing. I think somebody was pointing out to me, I think it's in Illinois.

which is another bit of hypocrisy about the way that Democrats have drawn districts in blue states with and to minimize Republican voting strength. But I think it's in. in Illinois that one of the congressional districts is 125 miles long. Of course, that's no big deal in Texas if you're talking about West Texas, and it's sparsely populated.

But this is always controversial, and it's not just controversial between Republicans and Democrats. It's controversial among the incumbents, members of Congress. Are you still a guy who's going to be willing to stand up to Republicans going forward? Because you have that reputation as somebody who, like, you'll tell Republicans when you think something's, you know, the right way to go. It's like you'll stand up to that. Are you still going to be that guy?

you get reelected? Well, I always try to tell people what I think and the truth. And I've always believed that that's the only way I can really operate and have a... clean conscience and be able to sleep at night. But, you know, you pick your battles and you don't pick every battle. But no, I'm... I'm the same old guy that the voters have elected 19 different times in various contested elections.

And you've certainly picked some fights at times with the president and obviously and now you're working with him very closely on the big, beautiful bill. I want to get to some of the pieces of the legislation there that is really going to apply a lot to Texas.

Specifically, let's talk about the border and the Texas border funding. You were able to get, you know, legislation in there. I was trying to track this thing the whole time. Our listeners and the readers of the Texas Tech newsletter saw the numbers. just floating all over the place. At one point where we're going to get $11 billion, then it dropped to $800 million, then it jumped back up to $11. By the time it came out of the Senate, we had $13.5 billion in there. Why?

First of all, you know, one of the things I've learned is how to navigate the Congress. And it's not easy passing any legislation, as you know, by design. But we worked with the Speaker. And the speaker didn't necessarily want this matter hanging out there for a long time. So you might have noticed that Chip Roy... played a critical role on the rules committee to get a part of the House bill. And then I basically was working with Chip and the Texas delegation to get the whole 13 and a half.

billion passed. Texas part, it will be, I think, roughly 11 billion. We had to, because of the rules of the Senate, we couldn't target Texas exclusively. So we had to make it. generic in some areas, but there's no state that's done what Texas has done in terms of the border and Operation Lone Star and Governor Abbott. And the Texas DPS and the National Guard stepped in when Joe Biden's administration was AWOL. Yeah, well, and that number, like, it's funny because...

To get to navigate at the end there, it seems like that's part of what you could be telling voters to down the line is like when you have an experienced person in any legislative capacity with seniority, it kind of is, you know, helpful to be able to kind of know. where all the doors are and where all the conversation pieces are. I had the luxury of covering Ted Kennedy towards the end of his career when I worked for the Boston Globe.

Like, he never was too concerned about it. He would just tell me, don't worry, we got this under control. He knew where everything was, right? So he knew what he could, you know, turn to. Well, you learn a few things. Yeah. Sometimes you learn the hard way. But I'm proud of the fact that when you start looking at the most effective members of the United States Senate, that I always rank at or near the top. And that's because I have learned how to get things done.

And there's a lot of different ways to do it. Sometimes you do it loudly and publicly. Other times you do it quietly. and work like we did on the reimbursement with the speaker who did not want this hanging out there and for it to be hard for him to get the votes he needed. on the on the bill and so he asked chip to basically work on this in the rules committee which and it was sort of a fait accompli but yeah I served briefly with Teddy Kennedy, and he was a master of the Senate.

because he knew how to get things done. He was very effective. Now, I disagreed with most of what he tried to do, but I admired his effectiveness. Yeah, he literally knew where the secret doors and the Capitol were. One day he brought me, he goes, hey, come over here. He opens his door, I didn't even know it was a door. And he leads me in and he had a whole press conference. Now, you don't want to start any conspiracy theories here. There are plenty of...

government around without starting new ones. But yeah, he was effective, unfortunately. Should that be a warning to Texans? If you send somebody who hasn't served in the United States Senate or United States Congress at all, like, you know, Ken Paxton, it's like you're in a situation where like we would be having a rookie in that and not to say a rookie can't be successful in doing things.

But it certainly seems like there's a learning curve in the Senate that we go from having somebody who, again, for 25 years, like you've been able to, you know, you know where everything is at this point. Well, it's, yeah, so much of this is built on relationships. And relationships just don't.

happen overnight that's built on mutual trust and which means that you've worked on things together in a way, or maybe you haven't worked on things together because sometimes I'll have to tell my colleagues, I said, look, I can't help you on this. I just can't help you. And they appreciate the honesty and they kind of move on. But yeah, relationships are everything in a small body like the Senate, which has only got 100 people.

Well, let's talk a little bit about that with the big, beautiful bill that I want to also talk about the shuttle part. Do we know what shuttle we're getting at this point? And what is the Smithsonian doing right now? Are they going to hold back? the shuttle we want for a replica or something? What was happening? Well, a little history. Back in 2010, when there were four shuttles that were being retired,

The Obama administration basically made a request for proposal. Houston did very well in that initial request, but then they changed the criteria midstream in a way that met that. Those shuttles went to places like New York that had nothing to do with the space program. And obviously, Houston is Space Central, the home of manned spaceflight at the Johnson Space Center.

And so we're really righting a wrong. Unfortunately, now the Discovery, which is the shuttle that will ultimately come to Texas, is now housed by the Smithsonian. And they've been a little bit recalcitrant, even though the law is clear. The NASA administrator has made his decision as was required by the law. So we're working through that right now. They're not being particularly cooperative. Is this a—

a necessary expense. This seems like it's going to be really expensive to move that shuttle. We had some stories, you know, from our team about just kind of how complicated it is to move the shuttle just like a few blocks, let alone trying to move it across the entire nation. Well, like I said, this is a correct or wrong, to right a wrong, and it shouldn't have been there in the first place. It should have been in Houston, Texas.

There have been inflated figures mentioned by the Smithsonian to try to discourage. this from ever happening. We've gotten bids that reflect a very relatively modest amount of money, although it's not insignificant. to move it from Virginia down to Houston. And Texas also has a space commission. And I know the state would be very welcoming to this move. And so...

We've told the federal government, we don't expect the federal government to pick up all the entire tab. The state, I'm sure, will end up supporting this effort. And this will be an incredible addition. for tourism and to advance the education of our kids to get them to study STEM fields so that hopefully they'll be the next rocket scientists. So it's important, but they're not making it easy.

There's a lot of Texan, at least Texas residents who have been on those shuttles, right? It seems like we should have one of them to show that connection to what we built in Houston and the entire state. Absolutely.

Well, and let me ask you about, you know, going back to the campaign a little bit. It's like, so these polls still don't look great, you know, depending on where you look, you know, around this world. You know, it's like I saw something from Punchbowl earlier this week that made it sound like, you know, even the Senate Republicans.

recognize that there's still a deficit there. How do you fix this thing? Is it going to fix it anytime soon here? Times are running out here. Well, I love being the underdog. But as I mentioned earlier, I've run for election a lot, 19 times. This would be my 20th time, and I've never lost. So I know what I need to do. But you've never been an underdog like this. Maybe not.

I don't know. Some people thought, you know, when I was running against Jim Maddox for attorney general, that he had been the former attorney general. And I was, so nobody knew who I was. I was a Supreme Court justice, which is pretty anonymous. So we need to do two things. One is we need to remind people what I've done and what my record is in the Senate. And secondly, we need to remind people what the Attorney General of Texas has done.

And if we do those two things, Tony Fabrizio, who's our pollster, who's also President Trump's pollster, said, if we do those two things, we win. If I didn't think I could win, I wouldn't run. But I think this job is simply too important to turn it over to somebody like the attorney general.

By now, you know, I have Wesley Hunt, you know, breathing on my neck all the time about, you know, he's been putting out ads or he had people put out ads that make it sound like he would love to run for something. Of course he would. And he circled this on his calendar. Well, he might want to pay attention to his new constituents in his new congressional district, but—

No, I don't know who ultimately will file and run, and it could be multiple individuals. We can't wait around, as you point out, because the primary is on March the 3rd. And unfortunately, it's going to be expensive. And you've already seen some of the ads from outside groups who are supporting me as part of that reminder and education effort.

You know, the fact is I voted with President Trump 99.2% of the time. Now, people may go, where did that come from? But if you think about it, if you're the majority party and you have a president of the same party, if you have the majority in the Senate, a president of the same. Party, typically what you do is support that president's agenda and you work closely together, which is what I did.

In his first term, where we passed the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act and where we confirmed, I think it's roughly 300 federal judges, including three Supreme Court justices. So I have a good working relationship with the president. I talked to him. frequently. But I think you'd like to see us close that polling gap. But my prediction is that we'll see that gap close and then we'll ultimately...

prevail, but it would be helpful, and I told the president this, if he endorsed me, the race would be over. But so far, he's not ready to do that. Well, it's interesting, too, because he has a history of going to battle with people and then eventually bringing them on. I know Ken Paxton and others have said, oh, look, you know, Cornyn's been sideways with, you know, Trump before. But I'm like, so has Rubio.

So has Rick Perry. So has like so many other people. You know, J.D. Vance. Lindsey Graham. Yeah. Ted Cruz. My favorite story about J.D. is who... who obviously is our vice president, but J.D. used to be a law clerk for me on the Senate Judiciary Committee when he was at Yale Law School. I knew him before he was famous, is what I tell him. But he spoke during the campaign in San Antonio at an event. He said, I want to tell you that I personally have witnessed President Trump's cognitive.

function and his ability because he remembers every bad thing I said about him in 2016. But let me tell you why I changed my mind. He pivoted from that. I thought it was a pretty ingenious way for him to... to basically acknowledge the fact that he wasn't always on board with the president and everything he did, but now he's supportive. And yeah, you're exactly right. There's multiple examples of people who've gotten crosswise.

And I, you know, I don't really even consider that I have really got crosswise. I just, I made a prediction about President Trump's electability. And as I've acknowledged, he was right and I was wrong. You didn't, like, block legislation. In fact, it sounds like on some of this legislation, you worked with him. Like, I remember seeing you in the White House after Parkland, talking to him about gun issues. There was one point where he wanted to go a lot more aggressive, and it sounded like...

You and other Republican senators were like, well, let's talk about this a little bit before we do anything rash. Well, they call politics the art of the possible. And so, no, I've had a good working relationship with the president the whole time, and it's— I think he knows that I will tell him what I believe to be the truth. And I think that's the best thing that somebody in my position can do to a president is to tell.

him the truth. And sometimes that's not a public conversation. Sometimes it's private. And because I don't think President Trump appreciates people publicly getting into disagreements with him. And so I've learned that the best way to do that is in private. Yeah, to work with them. It's the thing, you don't, there's sometimes, it's kind of like working within the Senate. There's sometimes where a press release and a press conference is good, and then there's sometimes where...

You don't want to do either one of those things, and you want to kind of work the tracks somewhere else. Just kind of work quietly to get it done and make it a fait accompli.

All right. Well, I can't thank you enough for being on the Texas Take. You know, this has been great having you on and we'll have you back on as this campaign rolls along. Appreciate it. All right. Thank you so much. Thanks, Jeremy. I hope you enjoyed this special edition of The Texas Take. A big thank you to Senator John Cornett and to his staff for helping set up this interview.

This is part of my grand plan to have more newsmakers on the program. If you've been taking notes, you'll have seen that Senator Cruz and Senator Cornyn have both been on the show as well as Governor Greg Abbott. I'm hoping to add more voices as we move along into this next election cycle. Thanks again for listening to the number one political podcast in the great state. And be sure to check out my Texas Take newsletter, which comes out every weekday. It's free.

And it's easy to sign up for it. Just Google it or check out the top of my X page where I have a link to subscribe. Thanks a lot, y'all. And I'll see y'all soon.