welcome-to-the-testing-peers
David: [00:00:00] Welcome to the testing peers podcast, a place where a group of like-minded test managers or leaders discuss testing topics
On today's podcast, we have four Testing Peers. Simon, David, Chris and Russell. First let's introduce the idea behind the Testing Peers.
Chris: [00:00:25] I was sat at my desk and I was looking around and I realised I really didn't have anybody who was a peer who understood my domain, as a leader in my team. I didn't have someone that I could just vent to, share with, ask for advice.
And so I reached out to people that either I knew quite well, because I'd worked with them, or I'd only really met a couple of times, but I quite liked them. And I thought they might be in a similar situation to me. I just pitched it to them. Like it could become a blog or a conference paper, but something I wanted accountability.
I wanted support, I wanted an outlet of someone who could understand my context better than anybody who was around me. And that's kind of where I just pitched it to 11 or 12 other people who were unsuspecting when I send them messages.
David: [00:01:21] So what made you choose the people that you originally invited?
Chris: [00:01:25] I went for people that I knew were in some sort of position of influence or leadership within their jobs. They didn't have to be a team lead, they didn't have to be a manager, but they needed to be someone that I'd seen out there doing something that was kind of like taking a lead. So that could be someone who spoke at a conference, someone who has volunteered to do something somewhere, someone who I've seen being a leader in the workplace. And they're people I felt that they were the sort of people that I needed to hold me to account in my situation. I felt that I probably could trust them if they were willing to do the same.
David: [00:02:06] And do you feel that it achieved that?
Chris: [00:02:09] It has, I didn't really know what it was going to look like, but what I was after was some people to share with and to be accountable with. I keep on saying that because I think it's really important and those that have stayed engaged in this, slightly mad little group, I felt have made me a better decision-maker they've given me an outlet and they've held me to account and I've had a bit of fun and I've definitely learned some stuff.
On the flip side, David, how did you feel when I just came out of the blue and sent you a message?
David: [00:02:43] I felt it was an interesting thing. I don't only just become a group lead of my group. And at that stage I had, I actually had someone with me that was also had been promoted at the same time. So we were sort of finding our feet at the same point, but because they , neither of us had experience, it was actually quite helpful to have the group in order for accountability. And also to just check what my thought processes were correct.
Because when you're new to this process, and new to that particular role, you don't always know whether your judgment is correct, and how we work as testers is very different to how developers or other managers actually work. And so actually being able to share that thought process and get feedback was, was quite important, especially when my second group lead decided to go back to becoming a tester.
So then I became a sole person. So I lost that accountability with someone else in the company. And so therefore this group certainly became much more important to me, whilst I was making that transition. And now in the future, that whether my thought processes are correct.
Chris: [00:03:51] And does it look anything like what you thought I had pitched to you?
David: [00:03:56] I think it's evolved into something much more cohesive, I think, I think the the group that are left here now we get on really well and although we've never met in person, we have formed this friendship group and we do, I think trust each other's judgements and what each person has actually got to say is relevant too.
Although we come from very different fields, we can pick up ideas and understand what people are going through and can certainly support each other.
Simon: [00:04:25] So Russell, what was your thoughts when you first received Chris' proposal?
Russell: [00:04:29] To be honest, it sounded quite interesting to me, where I worked, I hadn't got any peers, so even the sort of term was quite useful. I was managed by developers or senior developers, senior dev directors and all that sort of stuff. So being able to speak to, talk to, chat, get advice, feedback to other testers, test managers, test leaders seem to quite a good way to kind of develop, learn, adapt.
I'm kind of quite keen on the learning side of things and it was useful to have testing related learning versus just general learning. There is a small difference between just general leadership and that was definitely useful and obviously the group itself, I think, has mentioned, grew into this kind of Slack group and podcasts now, et cetera, of people that were willing to give feedback that were willing to challenge each other to challenge thinking challenge approaches. and ask different things which helped because meant, that I kind of stopped any cognitive bias that I would have cause I was the only senior tester or test lead sort of thing. So it was definitely quite useful to get that kind of feedback group going. How about you Simon?
Simon: [00:05:35] I remember when I first received the message from Chris to start with, I was starting to go through a bit of a transition in my role at the time I'd been a manager for about six months nearly a year.
And the company was changing direction. Testing was becoming less and less valuable, and I was starting to consider my options and actually having a group to discuss it in a way that wasn't with peers in the workplace who were obviously all 'pro' the company. It was nice to be able to talk things through and have a group that we're able to support and as it's grown, obviously it's gone from being a WhatsApp chat that didn't last very long to being a Slack channel with 12 people in that really, it was the four of us, maybe one or two others that were quite active but the rest weren't. It has become something that's become part of my daily life. I talk to you guys every day. And it's, it's, it's bizarre in a way that I talk to you more than I talk to some of my family members and friends, but, you know, it's one of those thingslike I say it's part of my daily routine now and it's, it's something I value.
Russell: [00:06:32] Cool. So what's your favorite part then Chris?
Chris: [00:06:34] My favorite part remains coffee corner.
It was suggested to me by someone that is in our Slack group, but doesn't participate much. Originally, when I stopped working with her, she said, it'd be really cool if we could, somehow at some point on a semi-regular interval, just have a coffee, like a virtual coffee and just have a bit of time out of our day, like you would like a break with colleagues and just chat about anything, you know, like you do on a coffee break, it might be work stuff and it might just be life stuff, but I just it kind of makes, makes the people that we're talking to more real as people we get to know each other more naturally and organically that way than maybe if we just come along and say, uh, I've got this new tool that I've got to deal with, it's a bit rubbish, which is still important. But when you get to know people better, you kind of understand them, and then we can work with them a lot better and I really enjoyed it. And I'm generally the one that suggests we do it because I really want to do it all the time.
David: [00:07:34] Actually, It's interesting you saying that, Chris, because I remember when we worked together, we had, '3T' when we used to get actually physically together and talk sometimes about work stuff sometimes about just what books you've read and just, just chat and just have a break. And it was only 15 minutes, but it makes all the difference because you get to know people.
And in fact, during this sort of COVID time, all my group are working from home, we are having elevenses and '3T's where we just get together and talk, talk together, on zoom so that we can actually see each other. And that's showing the power of, of that this group was the sort of precursor of that because it showed the power that even though we'd never met, we can become friends and communicate and have a valuable conversation through whichever channel you choose, even though you're completely separate.
Simon: [00:08:29] And I think it's actually improved my ability as a tester and as a test manager as well. I think being able to bounce ideas off all of you has helped me make the right decisions at times and improve the quality of my work.
So there's been benefits for the workplace as well as personal life from this.
Russell: [00:08:46] I have to admit I've now got a mantra. What would the peers think? When I think of ideas and different things, I think what would Chris think all the time and say, you know, it saves me doing some stupid things sometimes.
Chris: [00:08:57] So, so coffee corner is my favourite but does anyone else have a favourite thing that we do?
David: [00:09:02] I like the idea that actually we all have a channel that we can just go, aaaah, this is really frustrating me, and we can get support and it's separate and I like that channel.
Chris: [00:09:13] So if we're going to do like a, getting to know you type thing, maybe find out something interesting about everybody. If you've ever applied for EuroSTAR to speak at, which is probably a niche group in the grand scheme of things, but they normally want to know like something unique about you, for them to add to your bio or to like introduce you.
So,
David: [00:09:35] What's your thing?,
Chris: [00:09:36] I said, I'm pretty sure I can still walk on my hands.
David: [00:09:41] And can you?
Chris: [00:09:42] I think I can. Yeah.
David: [00:09:43] When was the last time you tried?
Chris: [00:09:45] About three years ago
Russell: [00:09:47] you should test this hypothesis.
David: [00:09:48] Yeah. Can you test it before the next podcast?
Chris: [00:09:51] Yeah, I can. I probably can do. I've got a lot of time on my hands
Simon: [00:09:53] And record it as well.
David: [00:09:53] Yeah. So you need to have evidence
Chris: [00:09:55] cause what the world needs to know, is that in 91 and 92, I was in the national championships for gymnastics.
Simon: [00:10:03] There we go
Chris: [00:10:05] big news, everybody, I was wearing a unitard.
Russell: [00:10:09] That's an image I can't get out of my mind.
David: [00:10:12] Oh God, please don't have video evidence of that
Chris: [00:10:14] uh, I think I probably do both my parents put it on VHS somewhere.
Russell: [00:10:19] No one can play that these days. So go on then. Simon, what's your at unique thing?
Simon: [00:10:26] My unique thing ,well, as either the fact that I only have one and a half lungs. As I had half of my left lung removed when I was 13, 12, even which puts me in the high risk category for the current pandemic, apparently. It could be that I, at the age of 16, I was given a choice to go into professional tennis or take my schooling. And I ended up taking my schooling. So I ended up not going down the tennis route. So I played in lots of very competitive tournaments up to the age of 16. Yeah, that's probably about as exciting as it gets other than my interest in going into schools and helping teach testing and software and getting kids interested in IT careers.
Russell: [00:11:07] Go on, David, anything unique?
David: [00:11:09] I wouldn't say unique, so, I've run a few marathons, at work we've discovered the game of kubb which is, I think, like Viking chess, which is just lobbing sticks at other sticks. It's quite interesting and quite good, we play that at work, but also when I was very young at school, I was on the telly for singing in a school choir, but I can't really sing now, I let that leave that tradition in my family.
And Russell. So what, what are your talents for you?
Russell: [00:11:35] I don't have many to be quite honest, I've you'll know this I've played basketball against Newcastle Eagles, a professional basketball team. I used to fence at national competitions as well. Wasn't very good at it though.
They let anyone enter just to be clear. And I spent 10 years at university. I decided that, you know, I wanted to spend as long as possible doing an undergraduate degree. So I spent 10 years on and off studying. That's about as unique as I get ,sorry.
Simon: [00:11:59] All studying the same subjects
Russell: [00:12:00] Yes two different universities, same subjects. Just like to be a you know I did one year for my first year, two years for my second year and three years for, my third year. And had the gaps in between just to, extended it, was a good way to build a massive debt, but it also good way to enjoy your twenties.
Chris: [00:12:17] We're quite a sporty bunch then, tennis, basketball, gymnastics, marathons, fencing.
David: [00:12:25] I do swimming as well.
Russell: [00:12:26] I was good at badminton as well, once.
Chris: [00:12:28] I didn't say I was good at gymnastics. I just said I was at the finals and not many people entered.
Russell: [00:12:32] So, if you weren't going to be a tester, what would everyone be?
Chris: [00:12:35] I looked really closely at one point, when I, when I knew I didn't want to test computer games anymore, and I couldn't, I couldn't work out how to get out of the cycle.
Cause we used to get that to go down to projects on occasion. And so I was like, I need to work out what job I want to do. And I looked really closely at doing air traffic control because I thought I can do, I can do it. I can concentrate on things for a short period of time. Like it's really intense for like an hour, then you have an hour off because it's so intense and then you go back on for an hour. And I thought that sounds interesting. And we, I was, I was married already and, um, we sort of had an, at where you can do the training and all these sorts of things. And I didn't get as far as applying because somebody said, Hey, come and work with me. This happens to me sometimes. And I just, yeah, it didn't didn't pursue any more, but for a good few months, I strongly considered it. I did get the forms. I just didn't follow through.
David: [00:13:28] I would probably be a teacher because I was a teacher in a former life before I moved into IT and probably now be a trainer rather than a teacher.
So I do enjoy training people. My current role is involved in training, on various things within the company and throughout my career because of my teacher training, I have been training people. So I quite like that aspect, and so therefore I'd probably move into training.
Simon: [00:13:54] My career was all planned out for me, not for testing.
Before I went to the university, I was joining the RAF. I applied for the officer school , before I went to the university to try and get in, as an officer, I wanted to go into intelligence, got rejected before I went to university where they said, you know, we're not, we're not hiring for intelligence or any hiring for nurses and pilots and my vision and the fact I had one and a half lungs was not good enough to get in as a pilot. So. I was determined. I was going to go to the university, join the university air squadron and go in that route, got to university, made friends, applied for university air squadron. They rejected me off, straight away. And I just went down my own route into computing.
Having said that at the end of doing a degree, I was determined I was going to be an IT teacher because I didn't want to go into software development because I didn't want to be a programmer. Ended up doing a development role for a little bit before moving into testing
Russell: [00:14:43] Cool, myself well, after studying architecture for 10 years, you would think maybe able would go down that route. But, um, after 10 years of studying it, it's not the world I would have got into. I probably would've gone into engineering sort of mechanical or that sort of side of things. And I've always had a passion for how things work and put together and the maths and all the calculations and things. That's what I kind of loved about architecture to a degree, the structural engineering side as well.
So probably would have done some retraining and gone down that route, I think, or just being lost and confused and just wandered around the world for a while.
Simon: [00:15:12] So, what is it about testing now that you enjoy so much?
David: [00:15:15] That was going to be my next question.
Simon: [00:15:19] You can go first then David.
David: [00:15:22] Well, for me, I enjoy the sort of investigative type role. And I, again, going back to my teaching, I see tests as experiments. So therefore you have a hypothesis that your product is fantastic and you try your best to prove the hypothesis, that it is great. And along the way you discover things about it, that may not be quite so great, but therefore you can then improve on it in order to do it .
Simon: [00:15:49] Russell?
Russell: [00:15:50] Cool. That's a good one. What was it about testing I enjoy? Right. I probably enjoy seeing how things work and trying to figure it out. So. As David mentioned the hypothesis and tests and things like that to try and work things. I quite like exploring, trying to work things backwards, trying to figure out the strengths, the weaknesses, and learn about things.
That's why I like software and the testing side, but I also like the leadership of it because I like the sort of psychology understanding the people, how they work, how bugs, defects, issues creep into software. How, you know, nothing is perfect and that we have to learn, we learn our own weaknesses as humans and how we can get around them to make things better. All that sort of intrigues me and keeps me interested.
Simon: [00:16:35] Chris?
Chris: [00:16:36] I had this question, at a job fair because , we were recruiting for developers and testers and they were like, so why, why would you not be a developer? Because all the way through, certainly in computer games, testing was seen as a step into a different department, but I never left. I nearly did. I nearly became a producer. But the reason that I'm hooked on testing is because it's always evolving. It's always changing. There's a freedom to express yourself. Diversity is encouraged, different perspectives are super important and you've got so much creativity to solve problems. I love all these sorts of things.
I love the fact that I'm learning new stuff, all the time. And if I get bored and complacent, then something's going wrong because the testing world shouldn't be like that because technology is always evolving and just learning the technology and learning about the product that I'm working on and how all these things are going to change the way that we work means that I'm never going to be doing the same thing forever, which is why I thought testing was when I started doing it.
And also the people in the testing community are pretty damn awesome.
Simon: [00:17:43] Yeah I would just carry on with that as well. I mean, definitely the community side of things is a huge, huge plus for the testing world.
But for me at the moment, my biggest reason I love testing really is being able to see that spark light in someone when they've come up with an idea to test something differently, to what has been tested before, or being able to coach them and mentor them and show them testing and get them passionate for it, whether it be school kids in the classroom, talking about testing, or whether it be a new starter in your team, or even the existing team members, just giving them that ability to think outside the box, think of something different and see them come up with something new.
And it's that change of role from being the person, doing the testing, to now trying not to push people in that direction exactly the way you'd do it, but giving them the tools to be able to go and do something in the way that will make it, make it work for them. And again, it's the people, and it's also that driving of the culture, getting the culture of quality across a department or across a company.
That for me, is a huge passion at the moment. And that's something that I really enjoy on a day to day is finding ways to push that culture out and, and get the team moving forward.
David: [00:18:51] I think you make an interesting point there. I think that is important to understand all the dynamics of the group and the team.
Now I'm thinking of things a different way. As someone else mentioned at work, rather than have team fit, you should have team add. So what can they add to your existing group rather than fitting in to having the same mold? Um, another thing I was going to say was that actually my current role, because I work for a consultancy we have so many different projects, so what, another thing I like about testing is the fact that, you know, one size doesn't fit all, you know, each project is completely unique and you can do whatever you want and it, whether it's agile or, or whatever, we are continually evolving to find the best practices to inf to increase the quality of the product.
Simon: [00:19:37] Yeah, I think you're right. I think that is the beauty of testing is there isn't there, isn't a single answer to the question, everything is unique, there's always opportunities to do things differently, and by doing things differently, you'll always get a different answer. And that's, that's definitely a big plus.
Chris: [00:19:53] Here's a fun, fun query for you. Um, because we've, we've, we've been really serious tonight. Um, we have very serious, so I would like to know please, the favorite bug that you have ever found in any software I'll make it easy. It doesn't have to be one that you found, but someone found on your product you were working on.
Simon: [00:20:13] We did a release and we didn't have a Windows serv. Windows XP service pack 3 machine, we had everything Windows Vista, Windows 7 32 64 bit. But at that point, XP was still 30-40% prevalent. It wasn't, it wasn't dying by any means, but the test machine had been repurposed and then we made a release and the release bricked all Windows XP users. And that was quite a lot large amount of people that were affected. And we had to work through the night because what it did is it deleted the SVC host .exe file off the machine, detected that as a virus and then deleted it. So we had to then work through the night to develop a little tool that could be put on people's machines and repopulate the SVC host file. So that was a fun bug and it caused a lot of effort afterwards and they suddenly realized that we needed to look at analytics going forward to see how prevalent OSs were rather than just going by N and N minus one. So a lesson was learned, but it was an interesting bug at the time, caused a lot of pain and caused a lot of heads to roll, but it was fun. I didn't find it either, but I was involved in it .
David: [00:21:12] So mine was for a security device for a lock, which involved a lock and an app and the lock talk to a hub and then told the app and basically you could fudge the system. So therefore the lock didn't lock when you tried to lock it from the app. So therefore it was not a very secure device, but we managed to fix it. So if you've got one in your house, it's working fine.
Chris: [00:21:41] You didn't name anybody either did you, so it was just, you know, probably some, probably one of those rubbish ones that no one has.
Russell: [00:21:49] Because it wasn't secure.
I'm struggling to think of anything that's as exciting, to be honest with you. Most of my bugs I've wiped from my memory.
Chris, how about you?
Chris: [00:21:58] One that a colleague of mine found when we were, um, we were testing a first person shooter and you were a squad of four people. And one of you was a medic. One of you is like the sniper and there were all these other things. And the medic, had some fantastic animations with a syringe. If you were injured and needs to be healed by the medic, they come over and, and the, the, the animation for them healing you, if you weren't, the medic was there, basically, it's just stabbed you, like, almost like, like a, like a fencer would, which Russell would know that.
And we thought, well, I wonder what it does if the medic has to heal themselves and what they did, and I'll try and be expressive with words, but I'm going to show everybody. So essentially what they would do is they would get the syringe and look at it and open like MacBeth right. And then they would just stab their other arm really quite violently.
And then they would stand up in aTtea pose, like stuck in the mud, and then they would just rotate 360 degrees a few times and he managed to capture it as a GIF and he added it onto the bug. And the only comment from the developer was bug of the day. Yeah. Well, this isn't even say like fixed or what's this. They thought it was awesome and it looked really funny, so we kept doing it until they fixed it.
Russell: [00:23:15] I've still got nothing.
Simon: [00:23:16] Fair enough.
Russell: [00:23:16] I deal with so many things. It's all just a big blur.
Thank you for joining us. Hope you enjoyed our introduction to the Testing Peers, got any questions or any feedback, reach out to us on Twitter @ TestingPeers, if you want to rate us or join again, hopefully when we talk less about us and more about testing, feel free to look out for our next podcast.
Thank you. . .
Simon: [00:24:11] For now, it's goodbye from the Testing Peers