Ep. 226 - Developing Wisdom As A Competitive Skill

Hello and welcome to the Tennis IQ Podcast. I'm Josh Berger. And I'm Brian Lomax. And on today's episode, we are going to discuss the wisdom or the path of wisdom of a tennis player. And to help us with this, we're going to refer to an article from The Guardian back in June. It was on the 25th of June. It was sort of a pre-Wimbledon article. It was about Taylor Fritz.

And the headline of the article is, Taylor Fritz, my happiness revolves around results. I think about it forever if I don't win a slam. And when I saw the headline, I thought it was very thought-provoking. And it reminded me of this idea of the progression of wisdom that we would hope to attain through our journey through tennis.

And what I saw here was my happiness revolves around results. And it made me think about, is that really how all of the elite performers, not only in tennis, but other sports, is that how they? Do it. Maybe some. But maybe think about Rafael Nadal and what he has said about his definition of personal satisfaction. So today, that's what we're going to talk about.

some really good stuff in this article about Taylor Fritz that we want to point out, but also looking at what are some of the virtues that we begin to develop as we become better and better. And what are some of the virtues that we hope to attain through this process that maybe we can see in others? Nadal, Roger Federer, Novak Djokovic. I also think about Kobe Bryant from basketball.

has another one for us to point to. These are guys who have developed levels of wisdom that have then enabled them to really succeed quite well. So before we jump in to the meat of the episode... I want to take a moment to mention our sponsor, GoSport. So as a listener of the Tennis IQ podcast, you can get 10% off GoSport products at GoSport.com. So it's G-E-A-U.

GoSport.com by using the discount code TennisIQ10. So visit GoSport.com. Be sure to check out their selection of premium gear bags for tennis and pickleball. Josh and I both use their bags and they are fantastic. Again, use the discount code TENNSIQ10 to get 10% off all products at gosport.com, G-E-A-U, sport.com. Okay, Josh, so...

Talking today about kind of the progression of wisdom of a tennis player. We're also going to want to look at in some detail this interview slash article with Taylor Fritz. What are your initial thoughts on the topic? A lot of initial thoughts. I think, first of all, it's interesting to see this arc of Taylor Fritz's career. I think he had a lot of success as a junior player. I know that his girlfriend, Morgan Riddle, recently showed sort of a note that Taylor wrote himself from a few years ago.

where he was i think struggling with some injuries he was around 40 in the world um and wrote himself this note essentially that you know and people can look it up there's some some expletives within it but uh essentially just telling himself to get it together right he's saying you know you're 40 in the world but you're underachieving so hard you know get it together

And I find that interesting because it's a it's a level. I mean, you know, we've talked before about the challenges of the pro tour. Right. How. For so many players, I think there's, you know, on the men's side and on the women's side, I know there's over, you know, over a thousand ranked players. Right. I don't know the exact number currently. It's changed. But, you know.

quite a few ranked players there's quite a few more we're trying to get that first atp or wta point so there's lots and lots of pro players and 40 in the world is higher than the lion's share of them. So I think it's interesting for somebody to be at that level and really recognize that they could be... doing more, that they are underachieving, that they could be a top player in the world, that they could potentially win a Grand Slam or win a Masters or something like that.

And, you know, I think it shows a certain level of self-belief. I know that in this article they talk about, he talks about sort of a delusional optimism. um which you know i think might also be thought of as maybe a delusional confidence right which you know i would say is is definitely a beneficial thing can can lead people to believing that certain things are possible that probably a lot of people

don't necessarily believe or couldn't see. So I think there's a lot of positives. Also just his career arc. And yes, he's had ups and downs, but, you know, to be a sort of consistent top five player.

is not an easy thing to do it means that week in week out you're going deep to the deeper rounds of tournaments it means you're winning you know 250s and 500s and you're you're beating the people that are ranked below you consistently and we've seen him you know make deeper and deeper runs in tournaments he got to the um to the us open final last year his first major final you know we saw him again at a semi-final this year at wimbledon

losing in the tight four setter to Carlos Alcaraz. And, you know, it was the fourth set was a tiebreaker that he was ahead in. So in theory, could have gone five sets and who knows what would have happened. So in terms of his career arc is definitely. you know, trended upwards and has made quite a lot of progress. And this article, which I think is really interesting, we can link to it so people can read through it themselves. But he brings up some interest.

He brings up some points that I think Brian and I find quite interesting in terms of, you know, he seems to view his, I think both his satisfaction and how he...

will look back at his career solely through the lens of results. And I totally get that. And I think a lot of athletes... fall into that and I would maybe say fall into that trap. And again, no part of this obviously is for us to criticize him. He's a professional athlete at the top of... the game and there's a lot he has a lot of admirable qualities and all of that i think we are talking about you know some of these quotes in particular and just different

sort of approaches that maybe he has and comparing it to some other approaches and and bringing out certain themes within that but talking about yeah how both his satisfaction and sort of how he'll look back at his career are really based on results and talks a lot about winning a grand slam as sort of the goal he cut a quote here he says um the quote is that's the only reason i really want to be playing

saying that of his quest to win a Grand Slam. He also says, you know, I was pretty down as a lot of my mood and happiness revolves around my results. It's tough because as I get better, it takes more and more to make me happy. Now, we talked about being 40 in the world where you're ahead of the lion's share of the pro tennis population. And now he's somewhere around four or five in the world.

I know him and Jack Draper have sort of flip-flopped a couple of times. But the fact that he is at that point, sort of a mainstay at the top five, and... so focused on this thing that he hasn't done yet, right? This winning a Grand Slam and saying that so much of his happiness revolves around that.

And, you know, and even recognizing that it takes more and more now, right, as he has climbed the ranks, as he is one of the top players in the world, is interesting. And right. And I think, you know, it's. We can talk about how some of the pitfalls of this, right? How, okay, you can win a Grand Slam and then what, right? Then do you retire right then on the spot?

Or is it, okay, I've won a Grand Slam, and now I have one Grand Slam to my name, but Alcaraz and Sinner have more. And Djokovic and Nadal and Federer have so many more. And... Is he truly going to feel happy, you know, happiness after winning that first Grand Slam? I don't know. Because I think our point is that it's sort of a feudal...

pursuit in certain ways because it's, you know, ultimately it's never ending, right? There's always more to be achieved. There's always more to be wanting. If it's all about achievements and results and rankings and grand slams. then in a certain way it's hollow because there's always something more that you haven't done. There's always somebody to compare yourself to that's done more, right? You can be the best tennis player in the world.

But then you start comparing yourself to people in history. Okay, and then I'm the best tennis player in history, and then I'm comparing myself to other athletes in history. Then I'm comparing myself to other historical figures in terms of my impact. Like, it's... It's a never-ending pursuit, and I think it's hollow in a lot of ways because if we're basing so much of our satisfaction on that, then we're going through that whole pursuit.

ultimately unsatisfied and unhappy along that road. So I know I've said a lot there, but wanted you to jump in and maybe respond to some of that or add in some other things as well. Well, I think there's a lot of good stuff there. Josh, and you're hitting on this notion of should we base our happiness and personal satisfaction on things like results?

and outcomes that we cannot fully control and then also a great point that you can constantly make yourself feel bad if you want to you know on the flip side we're not asking any players to just be content with what they've done to date this is this is a journey and i think this is the part that is very admirable with with taylor fritz is that you know you recognize it at at

number 40 in the world that he was still underachieving that there was more there and you know quite frankly we'd love to see more people do something like that um you know maybe the tone of the note you know it not the best but it got him to Got him to take action. And what I hear in that note is this is a guy who's got a lot of ambition and recognized that if you want to achieve your ambition, you need to take action.

You need to start doing things more professionally and taking care of those things. And there's a lot that goes into that. So we're not asking anybody to just be content with what you have achieved. But we also want players to understand that happiness and personal satisfaction should probably be driven more by some things you can control. We can certainly be... proud of achievements, proud of certain rankings, maybe after the career.

But we want to keep moving forward in that direction. So when I read the headline, I was like, oh, wow, that's tough. That's a roller coaster. That's a difficult, that's the formula for a love-hate relationship with tennis. And, you know, it reminded me of something that there's a mental performance trainer for the Philadelphia Phillies Major League Baseball, Cece Kraft. She wrote a series of things on LinkedIn.

Some months ago. And one of the things that she wrote was that I think is brilliant is that there are many paths to success, not all of which are healthy. All we're kind of saying here is, you know what? Taylor Fritz, he's a very successful tennis player. He could win a Grand Slam. Chances are not great. They're not terrible. But...

He could. He could win a Grand Slam. But also, he might not win a Grand Slam. But that's to say that he's achieved a certain level of success, believing in results being the most important thing. results being my way to happiness. I think we as sports psychology professionals would say, okay, that is an approach. Is it the healthiest and best approach? I would probably say no.

It's not. But he has gotten to a certain level. You can't necessarily argue with that. But I think we would say, look, you don't want to be having your mood depend on results and rankings and those types of things.

And so then I contrast this perspective about results, you know, or happiness being dependent on results with Rafael Nadal's definition of personal satisfaction. And he... articulated this whether it was on purpose or not in a press conference after his 2018 quarterfinal match against Dominic Thiem and he was asked

you know, now that you're getting a little bit later in your career, are these big wins, do they mean more? And he kind of talked about how all of his wins mean a lot because he was hurt back in 2005 with a foot injury. And then he just sort of veered off and it was very interesting. He just started to think about like winning, losing, and he's starting to think about like what that means. And then he equated it to, you know, when you go out there onto the court.

and you play with great attitude, and you give it everything you have, then you can come home and be satisfied with what you did. And he said, you know, I won this match. Very happy to be now in the semifinal, but I lost a match just like this at Wimbledon. He said, the feeling's the same, right? I was still happy with my performance, even though I lost that five setter.

at Wimbledon so that's a really different perspective isn't it Josh between the two guys right Nadal knows that if especially in a sport like tennis there are going to be matches in which both guys really deserved to win or no one deserves to lose. And that match versus team was definitely one of them. Dominic didn't do really anything wrong at the end. It's just like you get down into a fifth set tiebreaker.

And somebody's got to win, somebody's got to lose. That's a really tough way to end it. And that's just the nature of the sport. So, yeah. Would Nadal be disappointed when he lost that Wimbledon five-setter? I'm sure he was disappointed, but on the other hand, hey, he did everything he could there. And so I think this is what represents sort of that progression of wisdom.

Where we go from really, really good slash great player to elite player. So when we think about... that top level when you think about a guy like nadal there's so much out there about him and his wisdom as a tennis player because i think of the top three he's probably the most Not necessarily articulate, but the one who speaks most about philosophical pieces in tennis, like the suffering piece. Tennis is a lot about suffering through loss and the struggle.

of that the focusing on routines and things that you can control just even the character pieces that he learned early on from his his uncle tony you know he had another uncle who played professional soccer for Barcelona and for Spain. So there was a lot of character building very early on for him. And so when you think about Nadal and you think about sort of the highest level of an elite athlete, there's a lot of humility there.

He doesn't need to tell you his resume. He just goes out and he's just Rafa. He's doing his thing. He doesn't have that egomania where he has to tell you his resume every time he... he sees you he just he's just himself out there right um so i think there's a lot of wisdom there i think there's a lot of humility that reminded me of a the fighter's mind by sam sheridan there's a chapter in there in which one of the athletes talked about

To be truly great, you must be humble. And I think we've had this discussion, Josh, around ego and egomania, that you have to be able to let go of the ego a bit more. Nadal can lose and still be okay. Can other players do that? Or, you know, do they hold on to that loss for days or weeks or even longer? All because of, you know, they're deriving their happiness and satisfaction from that. So that was, you know, at least just the headline of the article just prompted me to consider.

Is this the highest level of wisdom that a player could reach, or is there something greater than that? So you brought up this idea of...

winning not being fully in your control. And that's absolutely right. When you play in a tennis match, there are different things out of your control. You can't control your opponent. how well they happen to play, you know, how they act. You can't control the weather. You can't control the court conditions. You can't control the umpire, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So when we are basing too much of our definition of success and of our satisfaction just on those results,

we're really leaving certain things up to chance. Okay, did I happen to win this match today? Did I happen to win this tournament, right? I mean, we've seen certain times on the men's and women's side when... maybe top players in the world were injured and not able to participate in that particular major. We've seen times where certain players have been defaulted.

from tournaments, right? I mean, you know, we've seen times when players have had to withdraw, right? Dimitrov at Wimbledon comes to mind, where he was ahead two sets to love on Yannick Sinner. had to withdraw right again center got the win he was i would say fortunate in certain ways i don't want to say lucky but fortunate in certain ways but again if it's all based on did i win or did i lose then that's a whopping success for sinner

And a whopping failure for Dimitrov? No. I mean, there's obviously some luck at play here, right? I also think about the French Open final between Center and Alcaraz, right? Alcaraz managed to win that match in five sets. Alcaraz was also down two sets to one, serving at 3-5, love 40. Had one of those next three points. happened to go center's way had center happened to hit one ball off of the neck cord it trickles on to

Alcaraz's side, his head center happened to watching those highlights. You can see, I think one of sinners shots went, you know, maybe six inches long. Right. It's like. Had that shot happened to hit the baseline, we're having a very different conversation about that match, right? Sinner wins that match. If he ends up winning Wimbledon as he did...

Then he's at three. Then he's won all three majors this year. Then he's, you know, competing for the calendar Grand Slam. Right. It's like there's a lot of luck involved here. Right. This is not to say Dennis is all luck. It's obviously not, but there's always the element of luck. There's always the element of your opponent. There are always all these different factors at play.

What you can control is everything that you put in, right? Mentally and physically. Everything that you're doing, you know, in terms of, yeah, your attitude, your effort, your... how you're using your mental tools, your, you know, how your strategy, like these are the controllable pieces. And if you can kind of like what Nadal was saying. If you can compete with great attitude, great enthusiasm, feel like you've left everything out there.

then that's success, right? Maybe you end up winning that match ultimately. Maybe you don't. Maybe you end up with 22 grand slams like Nadal did. Maybe you end up with zero and you wind up top five in the world or top 50 in the world.

500 in the world but i think having a definition of success based more on that based on that satisfaction that you did everything that you could you controlled what you can i think is in certain ways a deeper and and better um definition because I think it's it's one that can be achieved by everybody ultimately right not everybody can be one in number one in the world not everybody can be can win a grand slam I think about the men's tennis players between let's say the years

2003 to 2020 or 2022 or so, when almost all of those Grand Slams were won by three people. Right? Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic. Yeah. Think about like Andy Roddick, right? Another American, right? Who could have had a much, many more grand slams. And it was a great competitor. Exactly. Well, he won. He won one. Right? I think of a Thomas Burditch.

right he he didn't win any grand slams but he was consistently top five top ten in the world getting you know quarterfinals semifinals in slams i think about a you know a k nishikori right great player didn't you know, didn't manage to win one. Marin Cilic won 1-1, right? It's like these top, top, top players who, again, because of some luck and fortune or, you know...

didn't win any Grand Slams or 1-1. Again, they had the misfortune, you could say, of having to be in the same era as these three guys.

You know, and you bring up Nadal. I think, you know, Kobe Bryant is another great example of that. Right. He has you can find clip after clip after clip of him on YouTube where, you know, he's saying things like failure doesn't exist. Right. It's all about.

learning and getting better and improvement and it's you know what i i think is a difference between sort of the kobe and nadal approach to not just the What we hear in this article from Fred's but I think we hear similar things from Zverev I've heard Sabalenka say certain similar things of maybe more of a focus on results at times You know to me that the

Kobe slash Nadal approach is a lot more sustainable over time, right? You're going to have ups and downs. And regardless of how high you reach in your sport or in whatever your pursuit is, there's ups and downs for everybody. so if it's all about results where you're essentially guaranteeing frustration you're guaranteeing um disappointment you're guaranteeing that you're

own identity and self-image is going to go up and down and up and down with your results. Where if instead it's more about this feeling that you've done everything that you can possibly do. you okay i lost but it's not failure i learned right or i'm you know trying to go out there every day with just literally giving my best and not this sort of generic oh you know do your best out there but

really specifically mentally and physically, what does my best look like? And can I honestly look myself in the mirror and say whether I gave my best or not? I think that sort of approach is a lot more sustainable in the long run, considering that everybody will have their ups and downs, right? You look at somebody like Nadal, the amount of injuries that he had over his 20 or so year career.

is is almost unimaginable right but every time you know i think had he had the mindset that okay it's all about results i need to win i need to win grand slams I have to win this next French Open, right? I question whether he would have been able to keep coming back because he would have felt like a failure every time he got injured or every time he had to sit out a major.

So, again, I think, you know, considering the inevitability of trials and tribulations and ups and downs, I think that, you know, I think that that Nadal-Kobi approach is... you know, is preferable for, you know, for those reasons that, you know, I think it helps you during those inevitable down moments. So it's that Nadal-Kobi approach that...

prompted me, you know, when I saw the Fritz statement about happiness coming from results, it got me to think about, all right, what is the progression of wisdom and mindset of a player through the lifetime? And so I went to Gemini, which is Google's AI, and I asked it. I just tried to prompt it a little bit because I just wanted to see what it would come up with.

I asked it to give me a progression of a development model for an athlete and include things like mindset and virtues that one is developing. So I wanted to share a little bit of the results. I'm not saying like these are 100% Josh, but I think it gives us a lot to kind of think about and digest. And even as we work with athletes, so came up with the five stages, which I think are normal.

Athlete development stages. This is nothing new here, but the five stages were sort of the beginner foundation stage, developing novice stage, intermediate competitive slash competitive stage. Then it's the advanced slash performance stage. And then finally, the elite mastery stage. And I think those last two are very interesting in that.

Taylor Fritz, players like him, I think they're at that advanced performance stage. So let me read what the mindset and the virtues are there. And we can kind of then compare it to Taylor. And then we'll look at the next level compared to Taylor and Nadal and Kobe. So the advanced performance stage, the mindset, highly disciplined, resilient, self-aware, able to adapt to challenging situations.

strong belief in their abilities like taylor fritz has got all that for sure um and in fact that that little note he wrote himself when he was 40 in the world shows a good bit of that i think there's also you know his recognition that his mood and his happiness is driven by results that's very self-aware uh what he says about um

His delusional optimism. Again, that's very self-aware. In the Netflix series Breakpoint, he talked about his level of stubbornness. Again, another self-awareness. Is that a good thing or not? Hard to know, right? It could be... An excess might be a vice, lack of it might be a vice. What's the middle ground there? I think also him recognizing that...

Sinner and Alcaraz are now beginning to perhaps establish a new era of domination when there was maybe a one-year opening for anybody to win. But that motivates him. That shows, again, a lot of resilience there. So the virtues of the advanced performance stage are self-awareness, strategic thinking, so ability to analyze situations, anticipate outcomes, make changes. professionalism, grit, and sacrifice. Not my favorite word, Josh, because I think sacrifice makes it seem like...

Choosing an extraordinary life over an ordinary life is a bad choice. But to me, it's like understanding the impact of your choices, right? I would never say that. Taylor Fritz is sacrificing something because that he's doing, he's like mastering something, right? So what are you really sacrificing? But I think those are some interesting virtues. Do you want to comment on any of that before we move to the elite stage? I guess what I would say, and definitely want you to...

You know, to add, yeah, to add a lot more in terms of the elite stage as well. But I think that's, yeah, I think that's where a lot of people are. I would say it's a lot more common to be. sort of in that sort of stage with that sort of thinking or, you know, this disciplined approach, but it also being a little bit more result focused.

I think it's a lot more common to be there rather than... this next stage that you're going to talk about with you know sort of across the board and tennis outside of tennis yeah when you look at people that whether it's somebody who's top five in the world or somebody who's you know top of their section in USTA, you know, 16 and under or 18 and under or whatever it may be. So I think this is a lot more common. I think there's a lot of people who were...

you know, high performing in whatever their domain that fall into exactly that category. Yeah. And a lot of the metrics of that stage tend to be, you know, where you finish, you know, different, maybe personal best, achieving rankings, et cetera.

So the elite mastery stage, this is a hard stage to reach because it's not necessarily promoted in our society as a place to get to. So much of our society is all about winning. And, but I feel like a lot of that, and I don't want people to necessarily take offense to this, but that's like an ordinary mindset. We want to be extraordinary. We don't want to be ordinary.

The ordinary mindset is just focus on winning, winning, winning and results. The extraordinary mindset focuses on mastery, becoming the best that you can become. So the mindset of the next stage was about peak performance state. mastery of the physical and mental aspects of the sport, deep understanding of their sport, often contributing to the sport's development.

The key virtues, touched on a couple of these already, but wisdom. So wisdom here is profound understanding of their sport, human performance, and the nuanced interplay of physical and mental factors. There's a leadership aspect to it. Humility, so despite supreme achievement, maintaining a grounded perspective and recognizing the ongoing journey of growth. Generosity, a willingness to share knowledge, mentor others, and contribute to the sport's future. We certainly see that with Nadal.

and his generosity with his academy and what he's done with other players. And then sort of a long-term perspective, understanding their place in the sport's history and planning for a fulfilling life beyond competition. I've seen that with both Federer and... nadal and how they're treating their post-playing career um so i i really like this stage i think this is a place for us to all try to aspire

to get to that long-term perspective. And this is something I think, Josh, we have touched on in numerous episodes, this notion of becoming the best you can become as being kind of a... an ultimate or a pinnacle goal that hopefully drives everything else. I think when we talk about creating the healthiest path through the journey of tennis. That's a big part of it, using that as our guiding star to everything that we do, winning rankings, tournaments. These are all just milestones along the way.

They are not the destinations. And that's what I think when you look at some of what is here in terms of the elite mastery stage, recognize the ongoing journey. understanding your place in history, I think Nadal is extremely good at that. Actually, all three of the big three have been good at that. Can a player like Taylor Fritz get here?

Hard to know. As I said earlier, you know, Rafael Nadal was exposed to being a person of good character very early on in his life. Not saying Taylor Fritz isn't a person of good character. But he had that upbringing. Taylor had a different upbringing, different parents, different environment. You know, his dad, he mentions his dad a lot in that interview. A lot of good stuff. But, you know, maybe...

For the next level, this wasn't as professional of a coach as he needed at that time, right? So my hope is that as people are listening to this, that they begin to think about... How much of their own happiness or mood is driven by a single win or maybe even just a single winner or error?

Because you see a lot of that just on the court, just the love-hate relationship that people have with tennis in a match. Forget about after or during or, I mean, between matches, right? So how much of this can we understand so that we're not? just deriving this happiness from outcomes like a good point or a good match but really understand hey we're on this journey and things like points are a part of the journey

And they add up. There's a purpose to them. There's a purpose to my matches. And it's all adding up to, you know, can I become the best player that I can possibly become? you know, what Taylor realized at 40 in the world is that there is more there. So he did channel. And so there is a part of him that gets it, right? There's more to him becoming, to becoming great.

But I think all we're just suggesting is, all right, let's make sure we are not basing our mood and our happiness on stuff that is not fully in our control. So any thoughts on the...

the elite mastery stage, Josh, as you hear some of those mindsets and virtues that one can develop? Well, I think what's interesting about it, and I think it's paradoxical in a certain way, it's almost like once we're not so focused on winning and results it's easier to actually achieve them yeah they flow more exactly it's i think sort of a zen zen approach in a certain way it's like we're not so focused on this thing we're almost

I don't want to say like letting it happen, but we're, you know, we're more process oriented, right? We're focused on the types of things that are needed to be great and be excellent. focusing on doing all those things really well, right? Controlling what we can. We are, you know, we're going about things in the, in the right way, ultimately not so bound by.

did I win or lose this last point or this last match? Obviously, I prefer to win always, but if it's all about that, then we lose sight of... that process that we need but it's okay by going about that process in the right way i set myself up for exactly those same things winning titles rankings you know etc etc

um so i think that you know i think that's the first piece but i i like sort of those you know really big picture sides to um to the to this level right sort of being a bigger voice for the sport. And I think we've seen that across the board with those athletes on the men's and women's sides that have been most successful, right? Whether it's Serena, whether it's Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, you know, I think they do transcend the sport. They are.

larger than, you know, in our society, we see them as something bigger than just their wins and losses. Yeah, they're legends, right? Exactly. They're legends. We see them for who they are. Like, I think... somebody like Djokovic like his legacy will be more than just okay he won this many grand slams and he won this gold medal it's like no he overcame being that third guy

being number three perpetually behind Federer Nadal and really cemented himself in that picture, right? Actually winning more Grand Slams than the two of them, right? Or you look at Federer and he's... yeah i think a legend an icon in in so many ways and again but it's it's not just about the wins and losses he's had this foundation now for decades doing education in africa you know then in uh

you know, underserved communities in Africa and different sorts of places. And again, that's part of his legacy. That's part of him. And it's, you know, I think when people can sort of take a step back and take that bigger term approach, both within their...

you know, both within a match, within, you know, the competing frame, but also just as they look at their career and their life, I think it's a lot easier to, I think it's just a more mature approach. And I think it's a... it really is the type of approach that leads to excellence right it's like i'm i am striving for something

a lot bigger here yes i every time i'm on the court i always want to win i want to be the one that wins 55 of my points today not 45 of my points but ultimately it's not all about that it's about something bigger so i think When athletes can buy into that approach, first of all, I think it does lead to more winning and more success in that way. But I think it it leads to a lot more fulfillment. And I think it leads players towards that.

path of excellence because i think if it's all about winning it's really easy to get derailed it's easy to burn out it's easy to quit it's easy to say okay i guess i'm just not cut out for this where if there is more of that understanding of that those ups and downs will happen, that successes, you know, that wins and losses will happen, that injuries are going to happen, that, you know, again, we look at it.

career like Nadal's and all of these things have happened so many times. And, you know, it's the same with Djokovic, Federer, Serena, et cetera, et cetera. Venus coming back at 45 and winning pro level matches. You know, I think if we can take that sort of more realistic approach and have it be more about excellence rather than perfection, I think that tends to lead to much better, you know.

better results and better fulfillment. I think to me, a lot of this does boil down to, you know, excellence versus perfection. To me, you know, what... you know perfection i guess maybe that's not the the right word necessarily but to me that's a you know that sort of approach that fritz is conveying in that article is you know this

sort of obsession over results or obsession over you know winning right now and it's like okay that is this sort of idealized place that i want to be at this perfect place i want to be i want to be a grand slam champion right where it almost reminds me of somebody who wants to run a marathon and it's like it's all about that i need to run this marathon and it's all about sort of that end result where instead you know if it's more about

being the best that we can be and sort of that self-fulfillment piece, then I think it, you know, I think that for everybody that is achievable, that excellence piece, that being the best that we can be piece. is achievable it's going to look a little bit different for everybody it might look like 20 or 22 or 24 grand slams for somebody or it might look like one grand slam or it might look like being five in the world or 500 in the world

But it's achievable because that's based on somebody doing all that they can do. Again, it kind of relates to that Nadal definition of success of... I competed with good attitude, good enthusiasm. I did everything that I can do. And really, how can you ask for more than that? Right. It's again, there's luck. There's different factors at play.

I don't think it's fair for anybody to expect more than that because then we're expecting luck to go our way. Then we're expecting our opponent to not be as good on a particular day. Then we're expecting things out of our control to... fall into place and frankly that's that's just not fair so um yeah a lot of different thoughts there and i think we don't necessarily have to just focus on pro players i mean i work with a lot of adult players

who are maybe late 30s and older, who still have their best tennis in front of them, if they choose to look at it that way, if they can choose to... Not worry so much about beating people and more about learning to pursue, like you said, excellence. When you talk about Federer and his foundation, it reminded me of Andre Agassi a bit.

And, you know, Agassiz's career kind of had two parts. One sort of before he found his purpose and one after. And, you know, basically his purpose. And if you haven't read his biography, Open. Should read, it's one of the best sports biographies of all time, I think. And his purpose, excellence was involved, but it was really using his excellence or being excellent in tennis, that notoriety. to help serve kids and education, to give them something that he actually didn't even have himself.

and to have that positive experience. So when he had that purpose, something that was bigger than him, but it also involved, to do it, he had to be great at what he was doing. His career was so much better. I mean, I think we were, for the most part, we tend to remember sort of post-1996 Andre more than pre that era. You know, really kind of with Brad Gilbert and things coming to.

fruition there so i think it's uh we can all pursue this this path of mastery regardless of age regardless regardless of ability the more we can put aside the need

to win right you you brought up Kobe Bryant videos like one of the best ones is this interview he does with Jamel Hill talking about failure doesn't exist and She opens the interview with this question of like saying, well, I always think there's two types of athletes, those who love to win and those who hate to lose. Which one are you? And his answer, probably said this before, is revealing. I'm neither.

I don't have this fear of losing and I don't have this need to have to win. I go out there and I play to figure things out. I play to learn. And that allows me to be in the moment, to be present. I'm never capitulating to fear of having not wanting to lose or feeling the need to win. It's really interesting. Can we stay in the moment? Just figure it out. Just be a great learner. Again, this is that.

next level, elite mastery level of thinking that if we can, more of us can get there, but more of us will feel happy and satisfied with what we're doing on this journey. And it's hard. It's hard to do that. But I think, you know, even in my own career, Josh, I have tried to shift that in the last 20-ish years. And it's been much more.

rewarding than previously where I was like, Fritz, I was very much a rollercoaster in a match, between matches. I remember losses I had that I was basically non-functional for a week because it couldn't... I couldn't stop thinking about it. But now it's like, all right, you just go out, you do the best you can. Did you play with good attitude? Did you give it your all? If you answer yes to that, good. If you didn't...

If you can't answer yes to that, then you need to make some changes and then make the changes. Keep moving forward. Don't just get mired and stuck in the past with something you can't change.

Absolutely. And I think in a lot of ways, it is the ordinary approach that people take. It's the ordinary mindset. And obviously, there's nothing ordinary about... getting to number you know four or five in the world right there's nothing ordinary about having a sort of a career progression in the way that he has I think we're talking about you know sort of a

ordinary or sort of default mindset that a lot of people have that I think in a lot of ways society conditions us to getting into that sort of mindset where it is all about winning and results. defining success based on those results. And I think, you know, there are certain rare people like a Kobe or like a Rafa who... convey a very different perspective. And I think that's what we're touching on. That it's, you know...

When you can go about things in a very different way, you're not bound by your results. You're not defining yourself based on your results. You know, we see and I see it in the work that I do, you know, constantly. who, yeah, too much of their self-image is based on them as an athlete, right? And the... danger of that is that with every success and failure, our self-image of who we are as a person, not just tennis being something that I do and something that I care about and love.

It's no, I am a tennis player so that when things are great, I feel amazing about myself. And when things are not great on the court with my results, that I feel horrible about myself. And, you know, and.

considering those ups and downs that will happen, I think that's a really dangerous approach. And I think, unfortunately, it's an approach that a lot of people fall into. And I think it's a trap. So I think... you know we're offering a different perspective we're offering a different approach that i think transcends that in a lot of ways and i think when people can buy into it and i don't think it's an easy process i don't think you just

flip the switch and you just decide okay now i'm you know i was thinking this way now i'm thinking that way i think it's a it's a constant process and it's even when people are on that other side of it there are moments where you know urges where it's like okay i need to win this next point or i need to win this match today or i should win or etc etc but i think that we can you know get into a into a more helpful

and healthy place by seeing beyond that, by seeing the pitfalls of that and by, you know, getting more into that other sort of philosophy.

I think that's a great way to kind of sum it all up, Josh. And I appreciate this conversation today. We are really trying to touch on what does elite high performance mean? And how do we get there? Because there's a difference between people who win multiple Grand Slams, people who win one, and people who don't win any. And that's true in any sport. And I think all we're trying to do is let's try to understand.

a little bit more about those people who are repeat winners what's different about that than someone who wins one or two and then someone who maybe gets close but doesn't win etc right so Again, I appreciate the engagement on this and the article in The Guardian. We'll link to that. It was very interesting and thought-provoking prompt for us today.

So that's our show for today. Thank you for listening. For more on today's episode, please check out the show notes. If you have any feedback or questions for the two of us, please email us at tennisiqpodcast at gmail.com.

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