¶ Millimeters between glory and disaster in tennis
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ACast.com It's millimeters between the happiest day of your life And disaster. Many people have asked me, did you expect to win more stams? And I said no. Because I knew that I was very fortunate. I had a lot of luck. As a coach you also have to be even though you're freaking dying and crying inside, you you have to support the player. That is the most difficult thing. When you see that your player does everything, fights, competes, does everything and still goes down.
Just make one commitment before the first match. You fight. You fight.
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I am Karin Garcia. Welcome to Tennis Insider Club. This is a podcast where the top tennis players open up like never before.
¶ Johansson's childhood obsession with tennis
From Grand Slam champions to rising stars, they tell their stories in their own words. Subscribe now on your favorite platform and don't
Started.
Cider Club.
Thomas, thank you so much for being with us today. Our first question is how did you start with tennis?
Uh well, wow. Uh I started actually when I was 3 years old
Okay.
Um and then when I was four I went to a tennis club because I I love tennis and then so I was playing with my dad and my grandfather And then when I was four years old I went to this tennis club and then um many kids, it was like a testing day and then uh you were supposed to sit down when you missed the ball. Okay.
But I was the last one standing, you know, because I I was hitting against everything, against uh, you know, the the bathroom door at my grandma's house and I was completely obsessed with. So then the head coach of the club came up and said to my dad, I think you should put maybe your son in tennis school. And that's how it started. So that became my home club until I was 18 years old.
And I was very fortunate because I had uh good role models in my club, I had great practice in my club, uh we had many in my age. We were quite strong in Sweden nationally, so um No, I just love it. It wa it became uh like I told you before, it's a little bit like in your DNA, you know, you just wanna play, play, play and and yeah, so that's how it started.
And did you add in mind to be like a professional tennis player or
funny enough yes okay so when when you know friends of my parents or or my gr grandparents asked me when I was like five years old. They said, So what Thomas, what would you like to work with? And I said, I I would be a professional tennis player. So I was so determined to to you know, to play tennis on a professional level and um
But then as you as you know, it's not easy. You could be talented, you could work hard, but then in the end you need a little bit of luck and also uh you know, to be able to break through in this um tough world from juniors to pros. It's it's uh yeah it's it's very tough. And I was very good as a junior. I won pretty much everything at home in Sweden. I did well uh internationally as well. But for me it took longer time to break through in the in the pro.
So I was fortunate to grow up with so I'm born nineteen seventy-five and Magnus Norman is born nineteen seventy-six. And then Thomas Enquis is born nineteen seventy-four. So I was the middle one. So I was competing with Thomas. Yeah. And then I was also competing with Magnus. And we were the w you know, the number ones in Sweden during that time. And funny enough, we all made it to top ten.
Yes, because it's quite rare that at the end the same very good junior make it all to the pro and top ten even more.
Yes, exactly. But I think we inspired each other. So Thomas, he was one year older than than I than I am, and he He went very quick up to the property. Uh so straight from when he was the world number one or number two or whatever it is, a junior, he went straight into the almost like the top hundred. It it went so quick for him. For me it took longer time and also for Magnus it took longer time and I don't know why. Yeah. Uh we all played d differently. Um
Thomas was very powerful. I mean, and he was also very big as a junior, like tall and strong. And Magnus and I were a bit a little bit shorter. Uh so maybe I don't know, maybe it was that. But um no, we we had a very strong Seventy four, seventy five, seventy six generations. So that was fun.
Nice.
Mm-hmm. I guess be being from Sweden you were playing a lot of indoor, no?
We played on indoor carpets. Oh yeah. So it was ice. You know, it was so quick. And also when you fell on that carpet, it was like a burning marks. You had burning marks all over your body. Um but I think also that helped us with playing so well on grass.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Vous avez plus de tournements indoor dans le passé. Les hommes ont un peu plus que les femmes, parce que nous n'avons pas encore. Mais dans le passé, il y a une plus grande saison indoor.
Yes, yes. And also we grew up on indoor carpet but then we also played a lot on on clay, of course. But you know the weather in Sweden is is not that great. So um
¶ Breaking into the ATP Top 100
I mean the demands that you can play outdoors are very limited. But um I think I mean Sweden had s had such a strong history in tennis, starting with Bjornborg and then Mats Villander, Stefan Edberg, Joachim Nystrom, you know, you had so many and then you had Our generation, um and then the last one was Robin Sudling. So um I think like I said, we have a strong history in Tennessee.
And how after was was it when you made it to the pro and entered one hundred and you were there like where you wanted to become a professional tennis player and you accomplished
Yeah, it just i inspired me more. You know, I I won my I'm I'm so old. So at my time we had satellite tournament, which we it meant that you had three weeks that you played Depending on how you did, you ended up in this playoff, okay? So and you had to play all three weeks to be able to get your ATP points. So That year when I broke into the top hundred, I started the year with winning a satellite in UK and then I think it was oh um like a month or two later I won my first challenge.
So and then after that it went quite quick. And then you felt like mm I belong here in the top hundred, you know, I have the level, I've shown it so many times and then Your goals just increases. You want to be top seventy five, then you want to be top fifty, and then
Never.
Yeah you just you push yourself harder and harder. So um but breaking into top hundred was something was a dream, I have to say. That was the first big step. Uh, apart from maybe winning your first ATP points. Yeah. Yeah. Then yeah.
Yeah, it's a big milestone, because at the end you start entering the main draws of the Grand Slams, so it's like a big accomplishment in tennis, not only because of what it means, but the outcome it has, it really affects on your results and your schedule.
Yeah. No, I I I won a a junior tournament, I think when I was seventeen or something, and the winner got the wild card in an ATP event. And I didn't have any ranking and I w managed to win that tournament and then I came to Bolzano. Uh and uh Mats Villander was there during that time.
And I was staying in the same room as my dad, and then when I we came back home from dinner one one night, you know, the the phone was blinking. And I was like, okay, I have a message, maybe it's mom, you know, called or whatever. And then it was actually Matswilander. And Matswilander was my big idol, like big, big idol since I was ten years old.
And he said, uh hi Smats. Um I just wanted to check if you wanted to practice somewhere. So then first of all I I man I'm I was able to play with my idol practice. And then I entered the tournament and I beat the guy that was ranked number seventeen in the world.
Love it.
Okay.
So and then I managed to get to quarter final that tournament. And that both helped me. Mm-hmm. But it also hurt me a little bit because I I thought oh okay, it's not harder than this. You know, then I had to replicate and and um then I realized that it's a lot tougher. I thought it was very simple. Okay. I beat the numbers fifteen or sixteen in the world and then I beat another guy that was like maybe seventy. And then I lost in a quarter, seven, six in a third to a guy that was
seventy again, so I was like, Okay, I'm here. Yeah, I'm on top of I made it. And then all of a sudden you lose, you lose, you lose, you lose and
It happened a bit the same with you know in Paris uh with that famous match against Sarapova, no right guy.
Yeah, it's like on one match or on one week.
Exactly.
A lot of things can happen, but tennis is a sport where you have to be consistent. Yes, of course, if you make great weeks here and there, it's better for maybe a ranking, but at the end you have to be consistent.
And have realistic expectations, no? Like uh and understand that yeah, you maybe have a lot of potential, but not because you had a a good week, it means you're able to to replicate it and that you
Yeah. Yes, i it did. I mean I went from pretty much zero to four hundred in the world or something like that during that time. So I felt that okay, now it's just to do the same next week. But Like you said, it's very, very difficult. Very difficult. And of course you can maybe have an upset here and there because people don't they don't know you. Yeah. But it's also very difficult to go from juniors where you were the star to pros where nobody cares.
And you start losing every week also.
Exactly, because they're a lot stronger, they're a lot more experienced, they know how to play. So it's um it's it's a challenge. But um yeah, so that I would say it was a big breakthrough for me, but it w it also hurt me a little bit at the same time.
But it was mainly because of your own expectations or also like your team around, I don't know, if the media in your country start to also like put too much pressure on
Uh it was not so much pressure, it was more pressure from myself. This easy, you know. And uh it showed me many times that it's not so so uh But then it was tough to lose against guys they were maybe they have one point or no points and then I was like, I beat the number I beat a top twenty guy, you know, a couple of months ago. Why can't I do this? Yeah.
Now, with your experience of going through that moment and also now being a coach and everything, to a young player in junior, being very good in junior, trying to transition, what would be your advice?
Well the advice is that it will be difficult. It doesn't matter h how good you are, because these players that you will face the most of the time they're stronger. Mm-hmm. They're more experienced.
¶ The unforgettable run to the 2002 Australian Open title
And they know how to deal with youngsters coming up. And you know how it is when you play a youngster, sometimes when you know, when they're serving for the match or whatever, or they serve for the set All of a sudden you make them play. And then they they shoot left, right, and center can happen sometimes. So um it it is um
It is a big challenge to go from being very good as a junior to the pros. Mm-hmm. It's but but just be patient. Mm-hmm. If you do the the job and if you trust your coach, listen to what he says and the fitness coach and everyone. Yeah. Because you need to get stronger, you need to get more experience.
Um and you also need to be on the court for a longer period of time. It's not maybe enough with thirty five, forty five minutes, maybe an hour. If you play best of five, you know you can be out there for five hours. So it's it's a different if it's it's a different sport. Yeah.
And um you went to win your first uh your s first slam in Australia Open? Yes twenty two thousand two. Yeah. Um how was it? Was your goal this year or it was more like
No. And and I felt uh I did the preseason very good. I was very, very strong physically. And practicing at home I felt okay, I mean this could be not not winning, but it could be like a good yeah, good Australian swing. And I played like shit. And and I was like I I said to to my to my coach and my wife, I said, let's let's go back home. Mm-hmm. So after I think it was Sydney
I lost first round or maybe it was India, I don't remember, or quarters or whatever. I said to m my wife and my coach, Let's leave. Let's go back home. Let's focus on the indoor season. Let's just I can't play here. It's impossible. It was windy and you know
Yes,
And um but then I remember we were I think we were in Sydney and th my coach took me out in a park Uh and I was grumpy, I was irritating, I was not pleasant to be around. Mm-hmm. He took me out in the park and I I still know the park. He absolutely executed me. He said you run until I tell you to stop. So he ended up me vomiting. uh with a big tree and I think the tree is still there. I don't know if maybe it died after but but i it um and and after that I didn't have energy.
To complain anymore. Because he he emptied the tank completely and I went in with zero expectations. Interesting. And um
What ranking did you have more or less before?
Ton twenty. So I think I was seeded sixteen by something that was. Um And then he just said, We just make one commitment before the first match, you fight. You fight, you run for everything, I don't care about the level, but you fight and you don't complain. And I didn't have any energy to come to complain because I had to save the energy for the match. Yeah. So uh and then the first match was Tough one, uh played really uh didn't play well. Second match, very tough one, didn't play well.
Third match I started to play well. So and I beat uh Elainawi, uh from Morocco, a a guy that I was struggling to play. I beat him in three or four sets, played really well. That's when I felt ah, now I start to feel it again, what I felt a month before. So I managed to find it. And then after that, uh I just played it was like uh like um stairs. It was like just better, better, better, better. And then in the final I managed to play my best tennis ever. So
Interesting.
Yeah.
So you went from like having like no confidence and being like kill killed by your coach to being like in the flow zone and like
Peking on your fi in the final
We're running tomorrow.
But I I mean for my whole career I was very good at building confidence. You know, building meaning that Okay, I had zero expectations. And then after the first match, okay, I was proud of myself. Because I won. and I was fighting. I was not proud of the level that I produced. second match the same. So when I was sitting in the locker room it was one part of me that said you're freaking useless. I mean you cannot play tennis and the other one was
Very good job. You were fighting. You did everything that your coach told you to do. And I'm sitting here with a win. You know? So so that's why I was I was um I was good I was very good building. Very rare I played a good match and then I played a terrible match the next day. Okay. So I managed to build not only during matches, but especially in matches, but I could also build in practice.
So it's like you build a house. You build the foundation Monday, Tuesday, and then you start with the brick. Wednesday, Thursday.
Mm. It's it's not easy to I mean obviously you you get confidence from practice but sometimes if you do like good practices in you don't get the matches. Mm. It's like hard to build that
Yeah, that's uh you know, we might come to that as well. But now when I work as a coach and now what I've been working with both women and men, this is one of the biggest differences I see because men can build. women they are more emotional. So they can you know, we for example, we when I was coaching Maria Sakari here, she played probably one of the best Women's matches I've ever seen in my life live against Osaka here, beating her in two sets.
It was I was so happy and we were so proud and then next day she was gonna play Contalets, mm-hmm, which is a very tough match. But there I saw for the first time
¶ Key differences coaching men vs women
the biggest difference between men and and women. And since I've been coaching more men and also more women, I can see a little bit of pattern. You know? And uh Because the women are a little bit like they can integrate on Monday but then on Tuesday they start from scratch again. While a guy can play well on Monday and then he builds from that match for Tuesday. The match can still be bad on Tuesday but he can still go into the match feeling quite confident. And what
Why do you think there's like this this big difference?
I always say that women are ten times smarter than men, uh, in ev everything. And that's why it's so challenging as a coach working f with both men and women and see the difference. Because I I think that maybe sometimes if you would coach another woman, you can sometimes relate a little bit. we sometimes have problems to relate because we go like but why? Like what? Well you know the yeah so but but that's why I think I like
the challenge. Mm-hmm. Because I like to understand how they think, how they uh react on things and and um and then try to, you know, teach them how to try to get away from
And h how do you help women to avoid this maybe pattern of like doing a good match and then the day after maybe like not having the confidence and opting too much again?
Well, i many times it's just that, you know, I I've been I've tried this path. And it's not working. It's very dark and you get very lonely up here. I promise you, both as a player and as a coach, I tried the right path. Go left instead. Left is much better. It's um uh so That's what you can do. But it's i everyone is is everyone is is different. Yeah, yeah for sure. And it's it doesn't matter if you coach a a girl or a guy. They're all different. How they act, how they see things.
how they build confidence, uh how they act in tough moments. Yeah. Uh you know.
Yeah, at the end, that's, I think, you know, that's like, that's what... makes a great coach, no the ability to like be a good coach to very different types of players, no? Because maybe like to click with some pla with one player. Yeah. No, maybe you have shared personalities or you're super complimentary and like everything is easy, no?
But when you see all these like coaches that have been on tour for twenty years and every time they have a new project it works, like that's a crazy good skill. Like that empathy to understand how can you help different types of people, it's it's incre
I think the key is to listen.
Yeah.
Listen and ask questions. That's what I m most of the time do because Many players, both men and women, are used to to be told what to do. Yeah. But I want to get to know I want to see what you th feel and what you think.
¶ Life-changing aftermath of winning a Grand Slam
I mean it's it's an adult on the other side, no? It's not a fifteen years old kid where you have to impose. No, I think when when you give them options instead of imposing, it's where like also the player grows.
Yeah.
Go going back to your tennis career after winning your slum Is there any big change on your like mindset expectations? Like I won one, now I need to win I g another one or
It was a big change. It was a big change because uh If you know me I'm quite low key. I'm quite relaxed person. I don't show so many emotions. Um and you can also see when I won the the m the I mean the the final I was in shock. So lifting the trophy, I'm still in shock. Going to the locker room, I'm still in shock. During the press, I'm still in shock. But then next day. when I wake up w my wife and I will go for breakfast and then it hits me, you know?
every single magazine that was on the breakfast table, I'm I'm on the front page. Then it was uh TV. I was there.
Your life change.
And then I I go like I've done something that is quite big, you know, and also coming back to I went to Sweden and of course journalism. Also when you go to your first tournament after, it's a big change. You go in as the big favourite. You have to do things that you haven't done before with media, with different activities, with... Also the pressure that you uh when you go in everybody expects you to you know, to win. I played Davies Cups right after as well.
Yes.
was a bit injured. They throw me in in the last final rubber against UK. Um played Rosetsky at that time, played on ice indoors. It's not easy. Everybody's okay, but we throw in Thomas. Thomas is gonna win.
Yeah, yeah.
It can't do it.
No, just go on. But so it changes. It changes. But what Many people have asked me, Did you expect to win more slams? And I said no. Because I knew that I was um I was very fortunate. I was I had a lot of luck. Because you need that when you play for two weeks. You need to play guys that you don't have, for example, like a terrible record against
Agassi didn't play. I mean it opened up. So let's say second week it opened up. And of course you can I didn't look at the draw, but every time you go to press, you know how it is. Okay, now you're the highest seed, and then all of a sudden things start to have a chance. But we tried to avoid media at that time a little bit. reading newspapers. We didn't have social media at that time.
2002 was easier to handle all the pressure than maybe nowadays.
So I stayed stayed away from newspapers, I did I made very limited amount of interviews because Some where I felt that this might be my chance. Sure. You know, if I and when I came to the quarters, I s I I felt that If I can have this level for the upcoming days, I have a big chance. Then things can happen.
And having that feeling didn't put pressure on you?
Um
It did put pressure on me, uh, because I felt that this might be my chance. And especially when I won the quarters, then I was gonna play Jidinovak in the semis, which he's the same age as me. We competed as juniors together. We w it was a very le fifty fifty match, you know. But
¶ Battling career-threatening injuries
I felt but then going in with Marat in the final, he was by I mean, he was a favorite by far. I mean, he should have just did la d do like this with me. But um I had you know, I had the people around me. my wife and my coach that I, you know, I trusted with my life. So they could also see with me, even though I'm a little bit introvert, they I mean, especially my w my my wife can see if okay, now he's getting tight or now he's uh you know, so uh
We at that time the team was small. Now it's big. Yeah. But now it was only my coach and my wife. That's pretty much it. So um they helped me a lot. Nice.
That's nice. And um Aft in your in your career you suffered uh many injuries. Yes. Uh we talked a bit earlier about it, but like when you want to keep playing but your body says impossible
It's the worst. It's the worst. Um and you know the problem that I had was that I had one of my best years two thousand and two. Mm-hmm when I won I won uh Melbourne and I did well the whole year.
and then
I f I was I got injured and I felt that it was just getting worse and worse and worse and I had to take painkillers and anti inflammatory. So in the end of that year I just went on anti inflammatory and and and it was not helping and it was my knee. And then in November oh two I needed a surgery. And I was gone for fourteen months.
That's a long time. So fourteen months. So I saw I I didn't get the chance to go in as a defending champ in Melbourne, for example. I didn't have the chance to um ride on that great year that I had. So I was gone for fourteen months. So I came back in January uh oh four and started with protected ranking.
¶ Facing Federer, Nadal, Djokovic & two eras of tennis
And then finished all four. Top 30.
Mike. Yeah.
Yeah. So I managed to win Stockholm Open, which at that time was the last tournament of the year, beating Agassiz in the final. Um No, sorry, it can fall in the code. No, I can see in the final. Sorry, I can see the final. And then 05 came back to top ten again. And then lost a little bit and then oh six was like eleven twelve and then I got hit with the ball in my eye. And was gone for another five months. And then I I never came back after that to top ten. No.
And you retired it with year?
Oh nine.
So also like uh in a moment where like the sport was changing a lot, no, with the uprising of uh Nadal, Djokovic. Um what what were like the main differences you were you saw uh between the old generation, Agassi, Pete, you with uh with the new one, uh
Um I I was fortunate because I played in the middle of those two big eras. So I played with I played with Becker, I played with Sampras, I played with Agassiz, at the same time I play with Rafa, Roger. I actually played Novak once and and so I was in Andy Murray late on Roddick on these guys.
but then is your time to be around no no
It was offensive. For the what changed was that You started to understand how to train. You know, you understood how how you should train, how you should eat, how you should sleep, what you should drink. At my time, you know, since I'm that old, he was only eating pasta. You have to eat pasta. And then you know my wife was
shooting me in the head after a while because I wanted to go back to the you know to the same restaurant all the time. Tom Thomas wants Cabronara, Cabronara, Cabronara. And she's like Can you please try something else? You know? And I said, I don't care. I I need my pasta. So um and also how you trained, for example, what happened, um with my coach just days before Melbourne would not happen today. Yeah. You know, that you take your player out and it's pretty much punishing it
Your case worked out that maybe it's not the best idea.
No, it's not the best idea. So so what happened during that time is that people started or the world of tennis started to understand how to live as a professional tennis player, how to train, how to eat, how to drink, how to recover as well. Um so at my time we started with, you know, energy drinks, for example. You go like, Okay, now we um drinking Gatorade, Gatorade is good.
Sugar boy.
Um, So and also what happened is that all the youngsters that came up they were hitting the ball so hard all the time. Um
Faster and eavier?
foster I would say. Uh and also how should I say this? I mean When I came up and I played against Sampras and I was like a little bit like this, you know, it's my idol, you know, it's the youngsters came up, like Roger, Rafa, they go like who are you? Yeah, a little bit like that. So they wanted to this is also a thing that I I noticed a big difference. Um Because I I played I practiced with Roger when he was sixteen or f six seventeen in Marseille one year.
And uh he was coached by Peter Langrin, that is sadly not with us anymore. But yeah, so he spent a lot of time with us, with the Swedish guys. And Peter called me and said, Do you want to uh the guy that I'm coaching, he's quite good, so would you mind practicing with him and I said okay well cool And we played like a set and and of course I was I was fifteen, twenty in the world. Roger was eight hundred.
And maybe it was six three or six four for me and he was furious, Roger, on the court. He was like, How can I lose to this guy? So so so i and and then you saw his his uh his progress and development both as a player but also on the court because Roger was quite lively when he was younger. Um and since he spent a lot of time with us We we started to get to know him from him when he was sixteen, seventeen.
All the way.
a little bit I'm not saying the respect but
Confidence.
Exactly. No of uh
Exactly, exactly. So that changed during that time. So how to live, I would say with training, recovery and everything, and also a little bit uh attitude when you went in against one of the big guns, you know? Yeah. Interesting.
Interesting.
And then as you get closer to re was it easy for you, the decision to retire? No.
No, very very difficult. Very difficult. It was one of my the toughest things in my tennis career because uh I stopped two thousand and nine and we got uh we we got Lucas two thousand six And then we were expecting Celine in oh nine. So it was a tough time. I mean, it was a great time, family time, but tough time for me to decide.
And like I told Caro before, I said every time, every single time I go on the court, I want to play. I w I really want to play. So I I miss it because I stopped because I had to stop.
Yeah, you were pushed out of the spot.
Because I had a uh foot injury mm and I had the surgery and everything and everybody said it would be okay, but it it couldn't recover. I could practice Monday. Could barely walk Tuesday, practice very soft Wednesday, could not walk Thursday Friday and then so it was not worth it. Yeah. Um so I had I had to stop and this was very, very tough. Like very, very tough for me.
¶ Toughest moment: being forced to retire
Yeah, if if your mind wants to still play and compete and love the game and your body doesn't like cooperate is it's very hard to
Because I still felt that okay, I couldn't I could not be top ten. I could maybe be between thirty to fifty. Mm-hmm. But still, you know, still maybe make a fourth round in a slam, maybe win a two fifty or or something like that. But of course not compete for the big titles. But um I felt that I had at least two years, three years left in the tank. Um and that's why I think also you see a lot of players retiring.
And then they come back. Yeah. Because they miss it. Tennis is in your DNA. It's it's very simple. It's very simple. And especially for me, uh, you know, I had to retire because I I had a foot that didn't heal. Um But I always tell everyone, play tennis as long as you can. As long as your body holds up. Because if your body is not holding up, then of course. Yeah. Um but uh yeah.
Yeah, because playing with Spain is not fun any in
No. No. And you feel like you cannot train as much as you and maybe you cannot do the movements that you need to, and then it starts.
You went str uh straight after you went to coaching or
No, I actually um so quite funny story actually. Uh in two thousand and nine Jonas Björkman and myself and two other guys, we had the opportunity to to be the um organization part of Stockholm Open. Nice. But it was not done. We were still competing against other uh companies. And Then we had a dinner in Monte Carlo. It was me and my wife. Roger Mirka and Ivan Lubusic and Aida, his wife.
So we were sitting and then I said, uh guys, we m I might be the new tournament director in Stockholm. And they said, Oh great. Well I said nothing is done yet, but
It happens.
You both have to come first year. And they were like they looked at it because Roger and Evan, they're very good friends as well, so they looked at each other. So I I said, Okay, more wine, anyone? So it was like wine, wine, wine and then at two o'clock in the morning or whatever, uh W we I said, guys, now if we get it, you have to come. And so we actually shook hands. At the table.
After so much wine uh
We got it. And they both came. Nice. So it was great. Evan was uh Ivan was I think top ten at the time. Roger was the world number one. And Roger and Ivan played each other in the semis. And Yvonne knew that of course I mean the the maybe the crowd or the organization they want to watch it in the final of course but
So he was like he said it's one of his most difficult matches in his life. Okay. Because they are very, very good friends as well. Yeah. And he knew that maybe the tournament and the crowd and everyone wanted Roger in the final. Hmm. So it was so fun and we had so much fun that week. Roger. Uh Roger won. Roger. So I'm still super, super grateful that they came. Uh so Roger won the whole thing actually. So it was good.
Cool. How was his experience as tournament director or
Interesting. Because I was as a player I was one of those that complained quite a lot. And then when you start working with the tournament you understand that it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. Uh and most of the time there's an explanation for everything.
¶ Transition into coaching & first steps with Caroline Wozniacki
Uh so I think some sometimes players should go behind the scenes. Yeah. a little bit to just have a look how much work it is and also to uh you know to maintain the the financial strength of the tournament as well. So you can maybe get the players that you want uh, you know, with T V, with the crowd, with the venue and I mean it's it's a big it's a big challenge, but um it kept me in tennis, which I'm very grateful for.
And how did you end up coaching after that?
In twenty twelve we I also after that I started to work for H M. H M is the fashion company from from Sweden. And they decided to go into tennis. So I was the link between the company and Thomas Burdish.
Which we had for
Three years. So that was a lot of fun as well. So um I think it was during that time um we live in the same building uh as Caroline Bosniakic. So and we are very good friends. And then my wife uh and myself and the kids they were out s in Monaco in uh on the beach and then We met Caroline and her dad and then we came they came up and, you know, like we always do and chatted a little bit and then they left.
And then I think I don't know if it was Caroline or Piotr that came back and said, What about your coffee tomorrow? I said, Yeah, sure. So uh and then they asked me, would you like to help Caroline? Um so I was working with Caroline for almost I think seven or eight months. So Caroline was my first player.
To work with them.
She's a she's a great great player, but also a great person. Or easy to work with. So I was and then I I just loved it because
Quite an unexpected beginning at the end, no? You were not actively looking to coach. No.
No no no. But it's as close as you can get to play. And especially if you coach someone and you've been working on something. Yeah. And then the player goes out and they actually produce the things that you've been Yeah. It's like a win, uh you know, for for me as well. So I was like I was so excited and then also when they lose it's very difficult as well because
As a coach, you go like, Okay, what could I have done different? Could I've done, you know, could I have said something during the match that could have mm hmm, you know.
Right. And um so with Caroline you were working with with her father who was very involved in uh tennis as well. Yes. So for you it made your beginning Easier or tougher to have also
I think you know, Piotr and Caroline they have a very strong band, you know, ha uh you know, it's uh p because Piotr has always been there for Caroline. But we we have a very, very good relationship. I mean, both with I I have both with Piotr but also with Caroline and now with the whole family.
Yeah.
So uh no it it went really well, I have to say. And Caroline was so much fun to work with. So much fun to work with and and also made it easy because we we live in the same building. So it's it's super super easy. So I think you know working with Piotr and Caroline just um inspired me more to to start coaching.
Yeah, what was the hardest part for you of coaching?
Wow, it's uh no but but I mean i it's so much fun to coach, I have to say. But of course the hard the tough thing is sometimes could be the travelling. Mhm. If it's a long stretch like here or Australia or Asia. being away from the family. Now my kids are big, so it's i it's a bit easier. Um But you know, losing when you have match points and, you know, things like this, you go like, Oh my god. And then you go back to your own matches and And also, um, like I said.
If I would coach you for example and you have three match points and you lose I mean, could have said something, could have done something, could have you know, all these questions. But and then also the for me the tough thing both as a player and as a coach is that It's millimeters between the happiest day of your life and And disaster. And that is also as a coach. It's very tough. And but as a coach you also have to be
even though you're freaking dying and crying inside. You you have to show the player that you have to support the player. Okay, you know, next time we we have it and then when the door closes to the hotel then you can smack rackets or you can Uh but that I think it's it's it that is the most difficult thing. Um When you see that your player does everything, fights, competes, does everything and still goes down stuff.
And when you had the moment of a player uh missing confidence or was very down, how do you try to help them?
Um I try to learn a little bit from my career and What I've the mistake that I've made many times is that For example, let's say you play match on Monday and then by Saturday morning You you've been practicing the whole week and you're prepared and everything. And Saturday morning you have a terrible hit. Terrible hit. You go up to your coach straight away. Uh uh can you book another one? Book another one, please.
And
Then you go, okay, we can book another one. And uh in my career it also sometimes ended up me practicing three times that day just to try to find this thing. And Then I go like what the hell is wrong with me? I've been practicing three times today just to feel good for tomorrow. And then my coach took me aside and said listen Sometimes it's it's there, you you're not losing it. Okay. So yeah, what I try to do with the players sometimes is that.
Let's say you have a have had a good practice, you know, days and then Saturday morning it's not bad. It's not good. And then of course the player comes to me and says Okay. Now and I said no, let's go and play some goal. Relax. Relax. Or let's go to the mall. Let's go to the movies. Let's just relax. Okay? Because it's there.
¶ Building confidence as a coach and helping players mentally
You don't have to stop out there.
You don't have to chase it. Okay, it's there. You know, we let's try to focus on tomorrow. Mm-hmm. This is something that I try to um tell my players. Take a step back. You're not gonna lose your foreign, you're not gonna lose your back, you're not gonna lose your serve. It's there.
So I mean the job is done already, no? Like it's not because that you do two hours more the day before that uh
Nothing is gonna change. So take a step back. and talk about other things and that's also what I try to do as a coach. Intent on the course of the Maybe twenty minutes after, then we leave tennis. Then we don't talk about tennis, we talk about other things. We talk about Could be cars, could be movies, could be whatever. Just relax your mind.
Finding that balance, like being happy in life and having other things.
Yes.
If it's so important for you at the end, maybe you arrive to the match and you're so tight, you will not put a single ball in. No, it's right.
Because it it's nothing to do with Your tennis on Saturday morning, it has nothing to do with your tennis. It's just your mind that starts to prepare you because on Monday it's gonna be a fight and then you get tight, you get nervous. Am I at the right spot where I want to be? You always question, question, question yourself. So it's it's not your tennis, it's your mind that plays game with you. So just step out, relax.
You try to use mainly your your experience as a player or Also as people are changing and generation of changing, how do you try to use to help your player?
Um I try to listen a lot. I'm not the guy that says it's this, it's uh you know, what I'm telling you is the right thing. No. No. I'm I have a few people around me that I always if if it has something to do with tennis, I have maybe two, three people that I always ask. If it's about life in general, I have two or three people that I always ask. If it's about the stock market I have two, three, you know. So I have my group of people for different things. Yeah. And um then I also have two kids.
Uh Lucas is nineteen and Celine is sixteen. So of course I learned from that as well. Yeah, they keep you they keep you updated. They keep me updated. And I mean if you look now, I mean you have some guys and girls that are around that age and you still Top 100, samme av den og top 50. Yeah, and y so I think it's very important to try to be updated all the time. Yes, fair enough. And try to learn and try to be humble. Don't feel competition.
Competition I I know what I'm capable of. I don't have to s tell anyone. Yeah. But try to be humble, try to listen and try to learn. And sometimes you are wrong. You know? And especially if you have like I said you have these
If it comes to tennis, I have maybe two, three people that I ask. Mm-hmm. And then these two, three people says the same thing. And I go like, Why didn't I think about that? you know. So that's that's what's good. So I've I've been fortunate to have very good people around me that I trust in different areas of life. Ja, das ist...
like so important at the end to surround yourself with like experts know that can help you because even if you're very talented like you need to learn like you need to keep growing
Yes.
And so right now you are coaching Keini Shikori. Yes. Um in the past so you coach Maria Sakare, uh Sir Stea, um Gof GoFund.
¶ Coaching Kei Nishikori: challenges & humility
Um to tr to coach someone who has been at the top in the past and then have been struggling a lot with injury. Good what is the bad and the good?
It is different. I mean players are different. Uh the culture in different countries are completely different. So, you know, working with Kay is um It's a lot of fun. Because I have never worked with a more talented and skilled player than Kay. Um sometimes when I'm sitting in the stands it feels like I have a joystick in my hand. So I just say okay, go a little bit more to the slice a bit more. He's so skilled as a player.
He's he's Japanese. Okay, so it means that he's not communicating so much. So that for me was a challenge in the beginning. So when I started working with him I I asked his because we have uh the same agents since before. Uh I uh spoke to Michael Chang, uh that's been working with Kay very successfully. I spoke to Max Mierney.
I spoke to all the people and I said, So how is Kay as a person? How is he as a player? How is he outside the court? So entering that um Collaboration, I knew a little bit what to expect. So that helped me a lot. And that's what I try to do if for example if I if we stop and I get a chance to coach another player, I make my research a little bit before so I know what I have to deal with a little bit.
Um but it's been a challenging time because he he's had uh big injury problems. Yeah. Yeah. And it's very frustrating because when you see that the level is there and then oh yeah, I have pain in my shoulder, I have pain in my knee, I have you know also the mindset with that he has been top five. Yeah. He's been in the stamp final. He was
Most of the time like semis finals all the time, and then you start he's 35 now and he's working his way back. But I've seen so many times that You know, we practice with the top guys and he can still you know, he can still compete with with those guys. The consistency like we spoke about before is tougher because he's thirty five, he cannot play maybe a full schedule. We have to be smart with what we play.
But what I'm so impressed um of by him is that for example if I say We need to play Challenger. Humble. Um while many top players would if I would say let's play Challenger, they would look at me and they say no.
I don't know why I'm
We know what I've achieved in my career. Um, that I love about him. He doesn't care if he plays uh Use Open or a Challenger. You know, last year we played I don't know how many challeng many challengers. And Also with everything around, you know, you come to tennis club, it's not a venue like this, it's a tennis club with five courts.
Yeah.
And they hot, you know, they warm up the food in the microwave and they... And it's not like here. So that's what I love about him. He doesn't care if it's a five-star hotel or two-star hotel or use open or like a small challenger or whatever. He is there to compete.
Yeah, yeah.
loves the competition. So it's been a challenge, but now I'm not gonna jinx it, but now he is... Physically very good. Good. From the f I mean, first time in a long time he's physically very good. So now I'm very excited. I know it he hasn't played since Geneva the week before the French Open. So of course I'm not expecting anything big here. I just if he can go in and play the full match without paying, it's a win.
¶ Mentoring the next generation of coaches
Yeah, it's win.
Yeah, one step at a time at the end, yeah.
Hmm.
We had uh Tom Hill in the podcast. And um so you were um I don't know how you say um co coaching uh Maria Sakarian he was eating partner. Yes. And he told us that he learned a lot from you and still now he like you guys are very in contact. Yes.
We are.
And um how is it important for you to try to share knowledge or like
No, it's it for me it's very um it's very important and and you know Tom um came in more like an assistant coach because I was travelling twenty four seven with Maria and I was gone for a long period of time. And I I told Maria that we need to we need to find someone to help out a little bit. And then we found Tom. And Tom came in more like a I would say like an assistant coach and hitting partner. Mm-hmm.
Um and then we spend so much time together and he's the best, nicest guy I have ever met, and he is also he listens a lot. You know, he he wants to learn. And you know, when we were sitting having dinner and then maybe Maria went to bed and then we were sitting and then we were talking and then we were talking about my career, about my previous coaches, everything. I think we had a great connection from the first day. And then after a while I I just felt that He's a way better coach than me.
uh for for for Maria especially and then so when when when we stopped working uh they continued which I'm super happy about and she went to number three in the world with with Tom They have a great connection, those two also. They're good friends, but respect. Maria respects that he's the coach, even though... I think they're the same age. Um so they no, he's he's a he's an egg he's a great coach, great person. He could coach anyone and he could do a great job.
What advice would you give to like young pla young guys that maybe aspire to be coaches? What would be like your main tip to them?
Um try to find Like a mentor. I think it's very important to try to find someone that you can Talk to um if you coach young juniors uh professional players you can say you know we have this issue, what have you done in the past? Can you know can you help me? And listen. Listen and ask questions. This is something that I I feel is very important. I see many coaches they are
a little bit like um what I'm saying is right. Okay, just sit down, listen, don't say anything. Yeah. And this is not my philosophy. I I I want to get to know you. I want to know how you feel five all fifteen thirty second serve. I want to feel what what do you you know? So um listen and ask questions. This is something and try to find someone that you can rely to a little bit.
Yeah.
That's pretty good.
Oh they're they're leading, they're leading.
All right.
Yeah, we're having a complicated Recording and see what we can do with the music.
Yeah.
Do you see yourself coach for many more years? Yeah.
Absolutely. I would like... I think I've always said that if... When Kay decides to stop or we stop before whatever happens, I would like to coach a young player and see what I could do. Um Because that would be a challenge for me. And there are some young ones coming up now that for me they are attractive, you know, to coach. Because then it's how shall I say it's like a long term project. Hopefully things can happen on the way. We all know that. But
It's a little bit of long term project that you okay, now we start in the challenger level, now we try to maybe win here. Then first time maybe you make main draw of a slam, you know how it is. It's like whoa, you know, now I um So that's what I would like.
And you have a bigger chance of making an impact, right? At the end Tony Shikori, like of course you can help, no, but like the the player is built in a way, no? Like uh with a seventeen, eighteen, nineteen years old guy, there's like the whole thing like the whole thing is still like needs to be done.
No, but it is a little bit like you coach K. I mean, you would coach Novak. If you decide to continue, if I would be... You what can I do? I mean you're you're you're developed as a player. Yeah. I what I can maybe help you with is small, small, small, small things. Mm-hmm. It's not like I will go in and say, Okay, now you have to hit backhand like this or beforehand like that.
It's small things that can help, and most of the time it's like tactical things that you can maybe, you know, try to help them with. Like I said, Kay's as a player, he's so skilled and he's so developed. I mean, there's not so much you can do. But if you work with a young one Then you can even go into the technical things that okay, this we have to change
if you don't change it now, you will have difficulties when you go up against the big guns because they will you know, I I always say they will undress you. They will really um push you on your sensitive spots, you know.
También la parte mental del juego, ¿no? Es como un juego super mental, ¿no? Y ves a todos estos niños que son super talentosos, pero como te dije antes, no saben cómo manejar la presión, los momentos grandes, y ayudar a un jugador a la ayuda. Has to be pretty cool.
And it also takes a little bit of time for a player to admit The yeah, or I got tied.
Yeah.
I agree I was nervous. I didn't know what to do. Yeah. And this is because the the generation I see with my son. You know, he's like when I say uh Lucas, you you have to fix this visa now when you go to study in the it's yeah dad it's it's fine, I I'll do it. It's and then and then I say, Have you done it? No, but it takes five minutes. You know, and then all of a sudden you go like and then he comes four days later and says, Dad
It took a little bit longer time than that. So they are so confident until you undress them, a little bit what I'm saying. And that's what happens when you step on the court. If you're young and you go up against the big guns, they will show you. Where your weak spots are, you know.
When a man player or a woman player get nervous, do you feel different on the court?
Uh no, I don't actually because they are um Differently when you get tight. Some players stay overhit. Some players, they don't hit at all. Um so I don't see there I don't see uh a difference between guys and girls because you have guys that are when they're getting tight, they go for a lot more. Yeah. Uh same with girls.
And you also have guys that when they feel tight, two steps back and start pushing and it's the same with the girls. So um But I think that's um like I said y that's why I love both sides, mhm both WTA uh coaching a female player and a male player because they are different in many times also how they uh how they react or not w when they get tight or nervous, but you know, when they see things
Ähm för mig, women have a tendency of not looking over on the other side and look a little bit what's happening over there with her. And they prefer to look at themselves and okay, now I have to do this instälf a guy. Maybe sometimes when he's limping a little bit to the changeover he goes like, Oh, okay, now it's now we have to
That's also a thing, playing against an injury uh injured player. It's the same with guys and girls. Guy guys can be defensive and start, you know, not hitting the ball. So it's there I think they're we a little bit different. But Um
¶ Advice to his younger self
Or sorry, they're they're the same. But when looking over on the other side, there you feel a big difference. Guys are a little bit more better to See you. Set the girls, uh you know. Um but that's why it's that's again what I'm saying, that's why it's interesting to
When uh for example uh when I've been coaching the girls, I said, Did you see? Did you see what happened on the other you know? She was not feeling she was in an argument with the box or whatever, uh she was bouncing her racket uh really? You know so it's
Yeah. Yeah, it's true. Like sometimes we talked about it, no, like hey Carol, yeah, you're nervous, but look at the other side, you know, like uh
Yeah.
just keep pushing because she's also struggling.
And we had a we had a match in one of the
Yeah.
Yeah, one of the best matches when I was coaching Maria uh against you, when you played lights out. I was so impressed with your level that that day and I think you won the whole thing. Um Now he was like uh it was a different level. We were fighting and the winners were left, right and centre and aces and Mario was like what and I said yeah, enjoy enjoy, you have the best seat in the house.
No so so uh so no but that I remember that. I remember that match. It was uh and that was one of the first times Maria made a big result as well
Yeah, she was on the way on her way up.
so it was so much fun to see that one and we played as good as well as we could
It was it was a good week for me.
Yeah.
It was quake quick court, so it was nice. Yeah.
Sure. So what advice would you give to your younger self?
Many. I don't know how long your podcast is.
as long as you want
One of my um I was very hard on myself. Very, very hard on myself. And I don't know why, but I was. Um My biggest weakness on the court was that I could really lose my my head and and uh I was never uh aggressive towards my opponent or my coach or some I w I was hitting on myself. And also I told myself that I could not play on clay. Which was complete. It was not.
correct because I had m big results as a junior on clay. I had big results on challenger level on clay. And but then all of a sudden I just felt that I can't play on clay. And this was something that was so stupid. And um Looking back, uh coming back to what I said, uh you asked me about advice for coaches. I should have asked my idol at the time, Mats Villander, when I was twenty two, twenty three, saying that I have this mindset um that I can't play on clay. And maybe brought in.
for two, three weeks. Even though I was still working with my coach. Yeah. But work brought him for the clay court season Just as a little bit of support advice. Um because w I had him as the Davis Cup captain and I hated when it was windy. Always hated to play when it was windy. I lost my head in two seconds. But then I spoke to Mats and he said uh and I said, Didn't you feel like this? And he said Never.
Because he said, um I'm a professional. I should be able to handle this. If there's one person around this table that should be handled, you know, the hard wind and everything Or the tough atmosphere on court, it's me. Now I have the possibility to show how good I am. Never never after that day I didn't even complain about the wind anymore. So I said I saw it as a challenge. Okay now Let's see, who's the most skilled player? You or me?
That's a good one. I never heard that one. Nice.
So that's why I think that um you know on this tour you could be you could be coaching. But you could also be A little bit of a mentor of another coach or another team. But then he has to be if you coach on a men's tour. has to be maybe on the women's tour mm or with a very young player. Yeah. That so I think that we have so many coaches out here with a lot of experience and knowledge that could help more players, not only one.
It's an interesting topic. Awesome.
Thank you so much for your time.
Thank you.
That was appreciated. Yeah, it was a it was a pleasure.
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