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Hi, my name's beck Woodbine and welcome to Tenderness for Nurses.
I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity to be, so I hit it and parked it for Nellie four years. We always have free will, we always get to choose. We are autonomous.
Thank you for turning back into Tennis for Nurses. Today we have Sophie Dietera with us, who's she's left just breastfed her little Bubba and Hubby's taking the kids for a.
Little bit of a play at the park.
But Sophie's a midwife, had two really differing birthing experiences, and I thought it'd be great for her to come on and have a chat about her experience being a midwife, having quite the first birthing I ordeal, and then her second child being born and how she came into the world. But also Sophie's had pretty interesting life experiences having worked and given off her time to work in orphanages.
So welcome, thank you for having me.
So fill us in a little bit about your background and your study. Did you study your Bachelor of midwiffree or did you do registered nursing And then midwif.
Free straight mid Okay, yeah, how long ago was that that? I graduated in twenty eighteen end of twenty eighteen, so yeah, I just did my straight Bachelor of meda three years at ACU.
And then straight into the hospital sector. Yes, did you ever want to do home birth?
Thing?
Is it something that would ever be on your radar?
When I was a student, I thought like that the MGP model, so the mid free group practice is like gold standard. I thought, that's absolutely what I'm going to do as a midwife. But yeah, so straight into a hospital for my GRADEA, I went out to Dolby. Think
it's really cool Delby. Yeah, well it definitely wasn't my first reference, but I actually really loved being out there and the sort of mid three that I got exposed to out there being completely different to the big tertiary hospitals where I did all my student training, so I kind of got to see a lot more normal birthing,
which was amazing as a student. I did my training in one of the big ones that in Brisbane, which was good as a student because you see a vast range of everything from normal to all the complications, all the abnormal. But yeah, so being a grad midwife out in Dolby was much better than what I thought it was going to be. The midwives out there were beautiful and if that hospital was here in Brisbane, I would have just stayed there, But I didn't want to live in Delby, so I get that, Yeah, a bit too
far away from everything here. Yeah, So did that for a year, just over a year. I went into midle free group practice. At the end of my grade year they started to implement that model for all of the women out there, so we kind of all the midwise got to transition into that. So I did that for I think five months at the end of my grade yea and then going into my second year of mid and I didn't love it. Why is that I just couldn't get my head around being on call all the time?
I think I just for myself wanted to have some more experience before I kind of went into doing like the mid group practice.
It's an interesting thing with nursing.
You don't know what you don't know, yeah, and then the more skills you develop and the more you go along, you realize that you thought you knew everything, but you really didn't. And then you look back at that time, and I don't know, this is very true within you know my nursing career is I look back, I think, oh my god, I thought I knew everything.
I really yeah, and.
You sort of take stock of you think I probably wouldn't have done that that happened. Now you would, and I mean that's age, and that's experienced. You would certainly seeguay, probably in a different way, not all the time. But did you find that so obviously had insight though.
Yeah. So as I said when I was a student, I thought, mid group practice, that's definitely what I want to do. You know, that continuity, that's the best outcome for all women, having that continuity of care throughout their pregnancy, their labor, their everything, and then postpartum, but then actually being thrown into that model of care as a midwife. For me, I loved all the women that I looked after. I loved that I could see them from start to finish.
But I just didn't enjoy being on call. And that was just my biggest thing. I think I just couldn't train myself how to be on call properly, and I couldn't switch my brain off when I wasn't on call, and then having like other people's phones over the weekend, and you're just like, oh my gosh, Like, how am I gonna manage all of this?
And it's not for everybody?
No, and it's not. And I kind of was upset that I didn't enjoy it much as what I thought I would, But I'm glad that I got to experience it for a few months, and maybe I'll get back into it when like the girls are older and you don't have other people to be looking after and you can just be called in the middle of the night and be up and do whatever you need to do and not have children to look after. But so maybe eventually I'll get back into it.
In Brisbane, are those midw free groups attached to the different hospitals. Yeah, and then there's an independent.
Yeah, so that's not home birthing. Yes, So the middle free group practice is just a model of care you can select and I would say most hospitals have that as an option, and there's just different advisor. Yeah, work in smaller little groups in the group practice.
And then is there an obstetrician that then it works with you as well, or you call someone in their.
It would just be like the whoever's working in the public hospital. Yeah, so it's just your little little groups and you can select to be a part of that, or you can if you don't want to do that as your birth in experience, you can and do them just be like through the public hospital system and you just go to the clinic and get a different midwife every time and all that sort of stuff.
Okay, Yeah, do you think it's a good model of care?
I think yeah, it is a good model of care. There's just not enough midwives available to do it. But there's a way. They're just always have too many women, i think in their case loads, and not enough midwives to be working it. And a lot of women love that model of care, so more people are opting to have it, which is amazing. But then I just don't think there's enough midwives to service it, and they get burnt out and they get you know, working too many hours over time.
And then is there a shortage of midwives?
Yeah, and there always will be with midwives and nurses, isn't they.
It's really problematic.
A lot of midwives and nurses are leaving the health space and going elsewhere. Yeah, because of so many reasons, just workload bullying, work life balance, pay rates, it's there.
It's so problematic and it is.
I mean over a hundred psychiatrists are walking off the job down in New South Wales right because they're not there's no parody with pay with the other states, and the.
Same with the midwives down in New South Wales as well.
So they're all resigning in mass and it's going to leave the mental health space, isn't it. Yeah, So imaginea all midwives or the nurses or.
Strikes like that. It never happened.
I just think there should be one pay system across all of Australia for all nurses and all doctors.
We're all doing the same drill. I don't understand. We've all had the same training, we've all got the same degrees, So yeah, why is the pay not reflective.
Of That's so it's bizarre. Did you find having just done straight midwif free and not r in midw free do you think there was a real divide within the midwif free space or no one cared?
Not really anymore, I don't think because they hard even know how long it's been since they've had just a straight midw free course in a while. It has been a while, so obviously before that you had to be a nurse first and then you could do extra to be a midwife. But I think because the straight mid has just been around for so long, there's so many midwives who are just rms. So no, I don't think so when you think about.
It, Yeah, mire has been around for centuries.
Well yeah, and if you're working in a maternity setting, you're not really working as a nurse.
With the training they go into the full systems or like you get also a knowledge of different disorders or is it everything related to midw free.
No, So the first year you do like your biology classes and everything. So a lot of our classes in the pretty much that first first year of mid you're doing it with the nurses, of paramedics and the mid students, so you kind of all together. So all your biology, all your basic health professional subjects, all that sort of stuff is with your nurses, paramedics and midwives. We kind of all do the same courses and then after that you kind of break off into your different streams.
Yeah, so what happened in your background that made you want to go and give of your time and go work in orphanages and how old were you when you decided to do that.
I the first time I went to Africa was when I was sixteen, so I just went for a month at the end of grade eleven. So we had family friends that were missionaries and they had moved over to a small little country called Lusutu. It's like a landlocked country in South Africa. They moved to Lsutu to work at an orphanage over there. So me and my sister who's two years younger than me, went over with my cousin just for a month to stay with them and just to see what they were doing over there. And
just year I visit and I just loved it. We fell in love with the orphanages that we went to visit, and I was just like, I really want to come back here when I finished school, So I did.
And how long were we there the second time?
Six months? The second time. It was amazing. By that point, they had adopted two children from Lusutu themselves, so they were preschooled in grade two. I think they were quite young, and they were living up in the mountains and they were working with some organizations over there doing helping to like do some farming in the villages and stuff like that.
So I pretty much just went over there and just lived with them for six months, and I just helped home school there too little kids, hung out with the village kids, and tried to form some relationships with some other teenagers that were there, and kind of just followed them along with what they did. In that six months. I loved it absolutely, and it was really cool to just experience that sort of village life and so just see what they were doing over there and what different
missionaries and different organizations are doing in that country. And then for my last month that I was there, I went back to the city and volunteered at the orphanage, so one of the main orphanages over there, and just stayed with the other volunteers that were living there. So I did that for my last month and really enjoyed doing that. So I came home after my six months, worked for a year and a bit, and then went back again for another six months.
And was it education you were doing or was it health?
Was it teaching you know, hygiene, Was it just helping to school the kids?
It was probably mostly just helping with the school ling. So my last six months didn't that I did.
I was.
Yeah, basically the orphanage stayed with the Yellow Volunteers and just went to the orphanage every day, and everyone kind of just did their own little thing that they wanted to do when they were over there. So I was helping another lady who was doing like after school programs for all the school aged kids. So every afternoon we would open up one of like their little rooms, and we would have different grades each day and just help help them with their homework, help them with English if
they had like assignments I needed help with. So it was mostly this helping them with English. The younger kids like their basic masks and stuff like that and doing like educational games and so they had like these two little function rooms, so we would do that in one room. Then the other room was so for the older like high school kids, and we just opened that up and they just had like books and games and like a pool table and stuff, and we would have like craft activities and stuff in there.
So I think you decided to do midwif free.
No, So I wanted to be a midwife for a long time. So growing up, I've got heaps of cousins. I've got two younger sisters and an older sister. But I've always just been around babies and little children, and I'm just comfortable with them. Like I just love babies, and growing up, I would always like be babysitting like my sisters and looking after like my older cousins their little children and that sort of stuff, and just loved them. So I just always thought, oh, just be a midwife,
like I love babies, isn't that what? Like what midwives do? Was always fascinated with birth and that sort of thing, and would always look through some books that my mum had and of women giving birth, and I thought, that's amazing it.
Actually, when I worked with them, marda mom's every time, it took my breath away every single time, and I.
Just used to always think what a miracle it was. And that never changed.
Even if I see something on TV, I find it.
You find yourself.
I still find myself getting emotional when I see a woman giving birth because it's it's so intimate and it's so raw, and I've got goosebumpses talking about It's remarkable.
It is, so You've always been fascinated by it.
So, Sophie, your first birth was quite traumatic in that Bubby arrived faster than you realized, couldn't get to the hospital in time. You were very blessed that your cousin had come to support you, which was her role was to be a support person, even though she was rich a midwife. She wasn't there in the capacity as a birthing midwife. She was just one of your support people with your husband. Yes, what transpired once you realized that Bobby was coming sooner than you realized?
I think as soon as my cousin arrived, everything in me just relaxed and I was able to just completely let go to the process. So, yeah, we had made the phone call to the hospital that we were coming, we were on our way, and then I just all of a sudden got urges to push, and I just knew in myself that I didn't want to leave my
apartment and that I just didn't think I physically could. So, yeah, I checked with my cousin obviously that she was okay with me staying where I was and that she happy for me to continue berthing our home, which she said yes.
And you would have assumed you let the hospital know that this was transpiring.
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, so once we decided, okay, we're just staying here where everyone's comfortable with this decision. We then caught the hospital back and said, actually, things have progressed very quickly in the last few minutes. We're not coming in.
And you can't I mean once yeah, that urge to push comes, there's nothing. You actually can't think of anything else to do. That like, it just takes over, it doesn't it, It does. Yeah, so you were pushing and pushing.
Yeah, So what I thought was, you know, not going to take probably very long because I had those urges to push, ended up being a couple of hours, which is normal for a first time Yeah, mum to be you know, pushing for a little while. But yeah, we kind of just realized that the baby's head wasn't getting past a certain point. We could just see a little bit of her head through my pery and yeah, just wasn't advancing any further. And I could feel my pery
so tight. I was trying to stretch it myself with each contraction and trying to stretch and stretch, and just I could I could feel how tight it was.
I just had to say, how impressed I am.
Right now, the fact that in between pushing you actually had the.
Presence of mind to try and stretch a perieum.
Yeah, I mean.
That's out there, but I think that's probably what Do you think that was your midwife training kicking in?
Yeah?
Probably, I think ye's remarkably women are amazing. We are.
When did you realize that there was a problem and Bubby wasn't going to progress because there was no given the perodeum.
I think we tried so many different positions. I had been in the shower and we just tried all different positions, standing, legs up on the toilet, squatting, all sorts and make it, pushing multiple times in those positions, and just nothing was changing. So I moved on to the bed just so we could have some more light and we could just really fully see what was happening and going on. And by doing that, my cousin could see that, Okay, we've got like that white band around Ji Perry. It is just
that's the biggest indication that nothing's going to give. We need to do an episiotomy.
In the past, say our woman was at home birthing, can get to a hospital in time. Would the peronem just torn or are there some paranems that just don't.
I guess it's hard to know. Some probably, yeah, just don't. I guess if you really didn't have anything and you were just at home by yourself, that maybe it would just really really badly tear or you would just have to at that point find the strength to get into an ambulance or into your car and go to the hospital if you didn't have any health professionals around you to because.
What a health outcome If the baby can't get through the birth and canal.
Well, the baby would get very distressed, especially like with all that pressure on their head, and especially if you've been pushing for a while, So that would be.
The biggesting medication scenario would be the baby would get so distressed that they would.
Die if it was left long enough.
Possibly Yeah, wow, that's terrifying.
Yeah, when did the ambulance arrive? So we called the ambulance after we had called the hospital to say change of plans were not coming in. We hadn't decided we were going to call an ambulance then. We didn't really think it was necessary, but the hospital midwives kept calling back and saying, Okay, if you're not coming to the hospital, maybe you should have the paramedics there just, you know, in case anything happens. So we said, okay, fine, we'll
call them. So they had been there for probably a good couple of hours. Oh yeah, yeah, but they were amazing, the two paramedics that came. They just they didn't interfere. They didn't even come into the space until we moved on to the bed and we realized, okay, we need to be doing something.
So they're really respectful of yourself. Yeah, they were at the moment, and that's lovely.
Yeah, and I'm like my cousin obviously being a midwife, they were probably more comfortable with her being in that space because that's her bread and butter, whereas a paramedic they you know. So yeah, they were very respectful of us in that space. They just stayed in the hallway until we needed them, got them into the room when we realized, okay, we need to do something here.
So at that stage, you realized you need to do in a poy. Yes, So do you want to explain for the listeners that may not know what any is?
An episiotomy is when you have to cut the perineum. So you make a cut, usually on the right side, with scissors. In a hospital, we have like a pisiotomy of scissors. They're just on an angle and they're just what you use normally. You would, if you haven't already got an epidurol on board, you would give like local anesthetic to the perry so that you can't feel it. And yeah, so it's just a cut downe to the perineum to allow space for the baby to be born.
And do you want to explain where the perineum.
Is, Well, it's the part between your vagina and us.
So when women get tearing in child birth, that's usually where.
Yeah, it occurs.
Usually, Yeah, you can get internal tears and to other parts your laborer and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, first second degree, third degree tares, a fourth degree all through the perineum.
Yeah, that's pretty nasty.
Yeah, I mean the theater.
When so you decided or your cousin decided that you really needed to happen to pisiotomy. She then proceeded to cut the perineum and baby was born. Yes, and fairly rapidly after that, I'm assuming.
Yeah, pretty much as soon as we did the cut, baby was born.
But the story doesn't end here with a healthy bubby. It actually turned into a little bit of a significant event for your cousin and for you guys. Yes, in that a complaint was then put in to our the Nursing MIDWI regoverning governing board and opera about your cousin. Yes, do you want to explain what happened there?
I can only explain from what I So, my cousin did absolutely everything necessary that she had to do to deliver a safe baby. She was put in a position by myself to change her role from going from my support person to a mid with a midwife role with no equipment, So I put that on her, which at the time she was okay with and we discussed that, and yes, she was absolutely comfortable to be there as my midwife now. But yeah, working with very little resources,
only what the paramedics had. So yeah, baby born needed a little bit of assistance with her breathing, which indicated to us that absolutely the episiotomy was necessary, but in the condition that the baby came out, so that was all fine. I was absolutely fine with the events that happened. But yes, not long after baby was born, maybe like a week or so a complaint was put in to Aprah against my cousin.
How did that make you feel?
Absolutely awful? That was my fault that I put her in that situation and for that to then happen to her when all she was doing was delivering my baby safely.
So a senior paramedic came, Yeah.
A critical care paramedic came along to the scene. I I'm of blurry all the timeline of events and who was actually present for what parts of it. My understanding though, is that the critical care paramedic was not there at the time of the episiotomy my daughter being born. She was kind of under there just after we needed to do some help with the baby. So yeah, she didn't witness the birth. And we don't know who exactly put the complaint in, but most likely it was one of
those paramedics. But judging from the two paramedics that had been there the whole time, they were so respectful and so lovely throughout the whole process and even postpartum, that I don't believe it would have been one of them.
When the third paramedic ry, the critical care paramedic, what equipment did they bring with them?
Not a lot. I think she had just some more like baby recess equipment and maybe more like birth like more of a birth kit. But when we needed to use a mask to help my daughter with her breathing, it wasn't even the right size marks that fit her face. And so my cousin was doing everything that she could with the equipment that she had.
So it's a bit like that Swiss cheese.
Pecked, isn't it?
And everything lines up and the holes all line up, and yeah, why do you think someone would put a complainting when you your life was saved and your baby's life was saved, and what transpired really happened so fast it was out of your control, absolutely, and you were so blessed to have your cousin with you who was a midwife, and she was able and comfortably step into that role of which I have no doubt forever in a day you'll be so grateful for.
Absolutely.
Why would someone do that?
I don't know, but I know that midwives, especially private practicing midwives, there's just it's just a witch hunt for them, absolutely, for whatever reason, I don't know. Even APRA doesn't support them as much as they should.
Reboard certainly doesn't.
No, No, so yeah, I don't know why someone would want to put in a complaint like that when, as you say, yeah, she literally saved my life, saved my baby's life. If it wasn't for her, I would have it would have been a lot more traumatic if she wasn't there or wasn't a midwife and I had to transfer to the hospital with a babysitting on my perineum and in so much pain. Oh, and go through that whole process at the hospital, And the exact same events
would have unfolded in a hospital. So it's not that we did anything unnecessary or that we year I wouldn't have been done in a hospital.
It's interesting if you've listened to the podcast that I did with Kelly. She transferred a mother and the baby was actually born in the hospital, and then a hospital put a complaint in against her. But the baby was actually born in the hospital and she did all the right things.
Yep, and I.
It blows me away that will the responsibility of that birth was actually at the hospital, you know, and Kelly did everything right.
Home birthing midwives, the women who choose to homebirth, everyone's so scared of that who has no understanding or has little understanding of just how normal birth is. That it's just a physiological process. It's not a medical event. But everyone who's not trained in it is so scared of it for some reason. What do you think that is?
I don't know the way that birth and pregnancy is portrayed in the media, that people think that you have to have a doctor, president, you have to it has to be done in a hospital, that that is the safest option for people, when in reality it really isn't.
And people are allowed to have a choice absolutely, you know, and women have been doing this, oh how long.
Exactly, exactly forever exactly.
So I do.
Yeah, it's a bit of a minefield for my wives, I believe, especially midwifes. Absolutely, when the complaint went in, were you notified or was your cousin notified?
Or you just found out through your cousin.
I found out through my cousin. Yeah, so she was notified that, yeah, this complaint has been put in, and then she always had to go through the necessary process. I was never contacted to make a statement or anything like that. It kind of my cousin went home after that. Berth and wrote lots and lots of notes about it because I think in her head she thought something's probably going to come from this, So I'm just gonna write all of my notes while it's fresh in my mind.
So I've got, yeah, my own documentation of what happened. And yeah, she was right not long after she received a complaint. But I think once she submitted her statement and all of her documentation, nothing then came of it. But was she stood down while I believe she was. Yes, And the thing I think that cut her so much is that they said you've been deemed unsafe to practice end, which she absolutely is not unsafe.
She saved your life and yeah.
Yeah, but I know that's what hurt her the most for someone to say that about her. This biggest passion of her life has been to be a midwife and she's an absolutely amazing one. And yeah, to have something like this happen and be told or you're unsafe to practice and you can't practice while this investigation is going on. That really so while.
The investigation was on, she was stood down and actually couldn't make a living. Yes, that's horrendous, it is, and the impact that has on people is profound.
Yeah, absolutely, it's traumatic. Yeah, it is.
Once she had the right to reply and sent in her notes, what transpired from that that just she'd been.
Cleared, I believe. So yeah, yeah, I'm not one hundred percent sure what kind of happened after that, But yas I said, I never got notified to even about the complaint. I never got asked to make a statement. My husband didn't. Nobody else at the hospital got asked to do anything. So yeah, I think once she wrote in her reply and everything like that, it was realized that what she did was correct, it was safe, she did what she
had to in the circumstances. And yeah, then nothing came of it after that.
So if this is hypothetical, if you had have had another cousin with you that wasn't a midwife, but you as a birthing midwife like new enough to say, oh my god, we need to do an episiotomy, and a lay person had have done what your cousin did, nothing would have come of that.
Would it, No, Because they're not governed by anything.
So no, but she wasn't. She wasn't with you in the capacity as a midwife.
Yeah, exactly.
So I find it hard to comprehend why a complaint was put in when yes, she stepped up and did use her knowledge to protect you and protect the baby. But her role there wasn't as a midwife.
Yeah, so that just gives me away. But I guess if she, yea, if she wasn't a midwife, was just a normal person, nothing would have come of it, No, because who do you make a complaint to if they don't have a governing body.
But I wonder if people realize when they put complaints in like that, if they think about the impact and the trauma it causes healthcare professionals, because I know nurses within the aesthetic space that patients haven't been happy with an outcome from say piller and they've put a complaint in, and the trauma and stress that has caused that nurse has been horrendous yea, And they don't think about that.
I don't think so, because it affects their practice. It affects what they think of themselves.
And they question themselves.
They do when they're such safe practitioners and have been doing it for a very long time. But yeah, as soon as someone makes that complaint, even if you know that the complaint isn't correct or valid or anything like that. It still, yeah, makes you question your practice.
It's an interesting thing.
Yvon Smythe came and spoke on the podcast and she's the Q and mus laws had lawyers, and she was saying, in relationships where there's DV cost of control that sort of thing, partners were ringing up and or putting in complaints about their partners who were nurses to make their life hell and then they were being investigated by Reward an opera. And how that can happen is beyond me, but it was. It's something that happens. And you know,
I'm sure you know. It's a stressful enough time going through a divorce, break up, removing yourself from an unsafe environment, and then on top of that to be concerned about your profession and being able to work. And I do think there needs to be some vetting of some of the complaints.
To be but come in I believe, yeah, definitely.
So how do you look back at that birth?
Do you look back at it as it was a remarkable time, It was a stressful moment in your life. It's something you can sit back and have a bit of a dare I sayd giggle about now, I'm just got Oh my god, I can't believe it.
Now, how does it?
How does this sit with you now?
I honestly hold no trauma with that birth. Everyone else around me does, I personally don't. I think it's a pretty remarkable birth story.
It is fantastic.
Yes, my cousin and I can have a little giggle about things, but no, I hold absolutely no trauma against it.
I don't know.
I was just so grateful to have had my cousin there and honestly owe her my life and my baby's life. We've all had babies. She has been present at every single one of Beautiful my sister's births, and not in his role as a midwife. She's just been support person and a photographer for nearly all of them. But we've all been like, we can't do this birth without you,
so you have to be there in some capacity. And yeah, she was now a private practicing midwife and I had a home birth with her with my second baby, Coker. So we just did it all properly and it was absolutely amazing.
And went like a dream.
It did. Yeah, you would do a home birth again.
Yeah, and you felt it was a really beautiful private special.
It was, and it was honestly was as I said, happened really quickly. It was a little bit chaotic. I was hoping that the second time around it was going to be a little bit more healing for my husband because he the first time everything that happened, We were not expecting obviously, any of that to go the way that it did. And he was absolutely amazing through it. But I think he probably holds the most trauma witnessing that for the first time.
Do you think it's a protective thing of the man and the husband that he was not just worried about you, He was worried about his bubba.
Yeah, like it.
It was in a hole, and he can't control anything at that moment.
Yeah, I can't control it. Didn't really know what was going on, didn't know if that was normal or not. So, yeah, a little bit traumatic for him. So I was hoping, yeah, the second time around, it was going to be nice and calm, nice and beautiful healing for him. But it was quite chaotic. He had just got Remy to sleep, I was in the shower. He was trying to then blow up the birth pool as I'm making all these noises, and the birth pool then wasn't We couldn't fill it up,
but the hose wasn't working. Jumped into the bath with the midwives on the phone asking how far away are you? They're only ten minutes away. But then Koku was born and then the midwives turned up literally literally a minute later.
So you birthed your second child by yourself?
Yes, oh my god, yes, so that one. But it was beautiful, it was nothing went wrong, so did she that you? I was just in the bath. He was obviously right next to me. We had the midwives on the phone trying to help me breathe through my contractions, but just my body was taking over, and oh my god, I was born and I'm not kidding. Literally a minute later they burst through the door.
Oh my goodness.
See you don't just have one, You've got two great bairth stories.
Stuff.
Yeah, you're remarkable. I love it. Well, thank you so much for sharing my pleasure.
Your two remarkable stories of And you know what the thing to remember is right now happening. There is a baby being born in some crazy, remote, yeap, out of the way place and they're coping.
Fine, absolutely so if we just let birth be birth, and just let women's bodies do what they need to do. That will be fine. We just need to leave them alone. Sometimes time and a place for intervention absolutely, but majority of the time, if we can just leave women alone to just go into themselves, give way to their bodies and their babies, that's so beautiful. Thank you so much, pleasure.
I love that chat.