Appoche production.
Hi everyone, thanks for tuning back into Tennis for Nurses. This week is Part B of our Gambling Conversation with turning point to Australia and where I had the absolute privilege of talking to Zen who's a social worker, and Kate, who has live life experience and is an advocate around
gambling harm in Australia. The conversation was too big just to put in one episode, so I hope you get something out of Part B. I know I learned so much listening and talking to these amazing women, so enjoy just a little reminder that there may be some triggering conversations during this podcast, but honestly it's absolutely worth listening to.
And guys, if you haven't listened to Part A of this conversation, it was last week's episode, so check out Tennis for Nurses and just make sure you listen to Part A of our Conversation around gambling.
Thanks.
Hi, my name's Beck Goodbine, and welcome to Tenderness for Nurses.
I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity to be, so I hit it and parked it for nearly four years. We always have free will, we always get to choose.
We are autonomous.
I am in complete and utter or of you, Kate, and hand on heart from someone who's had addiction issues, I truly mean that I am very aware with my personality of pokey machines. I don't have any apps on my phone, but I am very particular about those venues, mainly because I know how easy it is to get sucked into things and I don't want to go down
that pathway. And a really interesting thing last year, I had to go to a conference and the only accommodation I could get in this down the Gold Coast was actually at the casino. It was a three day conference. I was there for three nights or two nights, and I ended up leaving the conference early because my anxiety and I couldn't work out why I was so anxious, you know, because I was with people. I knew it was a great conference. And then the penny dropped. It
was staying at the casino. It was the energy that was in the casino. It was walking past all the noises and the and I don't have an issue with gambling per se, but I just think it was the energy of the place. It was so low and there were people there that just couldn't afford to be there, and there they were. And in the end, I was like, the conference is again this year, and it's like, there's no way on earth I am staying at that casino again.
And I thought, isn't it interesting that I was so aware of it and could recognize the sensation of staying there and what it did to me. And I'm assuming, Kate, you would never go into a casino. I've had to give trainings to staff and things like that in venues with the work that I do as an advocate. It doesn't hold power over me now because I've liberated myself from the shame that was never mine to bear.
This shame belongs on this industry.
This shame belongs on governments and regulatory bodies that have failed to put consumer protections front and center.
Period.
We shouldn't have thirty two billion dollars being lost out of our nation. It's a disgrace that that is happening under any prime minister's watch. And to point fingers and blame Albany, sorry, You've got to point the fingers all the way back to the fifties where this started and has never been rained in I just.
Can't even comprehend thirty two billion.
It's next level.
It is for twenty seven million people, twenty seven million Australia, twenty seven million people, but thirty two billion dollars. Yeah, holy shit.
When you put it that way, that blows my mind away.
And though the types of statistics and facts which it is really important, like through turning point, We've got the Gambling Help Online website which has forums, and they are anonymous forums where people can connect with others, both loved ones and people who are gambling, who are wanting to make a change, like and a lot of it is
just them learning these facts and going, oh my god. One, I'm not the only person going through this, or I'm not the only affected family member or loved one, and two I'm caught up in all of this with other people. I'm not on my own. I can break these things down. But being empowered with the knowledge, like the amount of just articles and information we're constantly putting onto the Gambling Help Online website, which is like kind of really basic,
like these are the statistics. This is not on you, this is not about you, this is what is happening, this is the reality. Here are the pragmatic changes you can make. Here are the services you can access, but it is important that you have that bigger picture so you can feel, as you said, Kate, empowered, So the individuals can shed this shame, which yeah, it's not theirs
to have. They are people who have been caught up in something which is insidious and so much bigger than we ever properly give credence to.
So then if someone rings you up and they're at the end of their tether, like it sounded like Kate was, what are the steps you advise?
I think as a counselor the first thing is actually sitting with someone in that space and acknowledging that just the level of stress, that sense of powerlessness, and then trying to work out what for them they can tangibly put in place and what do they need in that moment, and then moving forward. Depending on the state someone lives in, each state has different services and different things that can
be put in place. Every state and territory, individuals and affected loved ones can all access gambling counseling and financial counseling.
So if we're talking to someone on the Gambler's Helpline for Victoria, or Tasmania, we can do a facilitated referral through to their local gambling counseling service and also get them linked with a financial counselor that way we can assist them with getting to betstop or getting in contact with the state's relevant self exclusion services for the actual venues.
When people come through on web chats, so that's anyone from the entire country, we can do those facilitated referrals again through to their local services so that the owners is on the service to contact the person, which takes a bit of the pressure off that person going, oh, I have to wait until nine am so I can call this service. No, the service has my information, they
can reach out to me. I can get this support and really just talking people through what's available and also if someone's on the gambling help online website, what kind of resources can be useful for managing urgers, Linking in with the forum, getting connected with other people so they're feeling a bit less alone, and also at times having conversations with them about like who knows what's going on?
Who do you feel comfortable having this conversation within your day to day life, and how can we help you get there. Do you need to write a little script about how you're going to tell a partner or a child. You know, let's workshop some of those things. Just getting the support, but the pragmatic, real life things that people have to do just as important.
I know it was very important, and Kate, it resounded with me when you spoke with your twelve year old. I have spoken to both my kids and I wasn't a fall down drunk or any of that sort of stuff, but I did ask my kids if my drinking impact to them in some way. I think my words have I stuffed you up? And you know what that's going
to know? We are really proud of you. And there's something I love with this younger generation and people who pooh or whatever, but this younger generation are all over empathy and caring, acceptance, and you know, you guys have got it nailed. It's my generation that are the ones that blame, shame, embarrassed, whereas this younger generation are so wonderful at being that little bit insightful and going, yeah, you're okay.
I think I'm.
Okay, let's talk about it. And I think it's lovely what your son said. Kate and I have to also acknowledge, you must have a really beautiful husband.
Yeah, just had twenty five years married and look, it's a miracle that we survived in and many marriages don't. And that's often because people are just operating out of their own sense of pain and aren't able to see the pain of the other person clearly enough. And that's completely valid, you know, because you don't know what you don't know. And it's not about assigning blame. It's about going, Okay, I did things that I wish I could have changed.
He did things he wished he could have changed, and we both decided let's move forward together and not keep throwing our past in each other's faces. And as far as total transparency with the children, having that open dialogue always available if there's anything that they want to talk to me about or feel an impact from. But the proud of the work that I've done in this space, and it's given them a knowledge base in which to operate in the world with clear understanding of the way
that it's designed to entrap people. So they not only know it for themselves, but they're looking out for their mates and making sure that none of their friends full victim to this industry because it's just waiting.
Kate.
I bet you've got really kind, insightful kids. They're pretty great because you've been honest with them. And I think that in itself is a gift you've given your.
Kids, absolutely, and to the people they know. I mean, it makes such a big difference to their friends knowing that they have people they can be open with and they use that empathy and support and understanding. So it's a gift not just to your children, but to the people in their lives as well. There are so many ripple effects.
Absolutely, that's so true. Hum what is the work you're doing.
Now, Kate.
Well, I've been a national advocate for gambling reform for the last day. I can't believe how long it is taking to get traction, to get movement, to get all this done. It's absolutely despicable. But I am not allowing this to keep going without a fight. And I think never in this country has there been a greater community sense of we've had enough, we've had enough, and it's up to the politicians now to listen to their communities
and actually take action on this industry. Whereas I think in previous decades there just wasn't that community knowledge and understanding or pressure to create reform, so politicians felt like too vulnerable to put in place what needed to be put in place. So I think we're approaching a time where we hopefully will see all this hard work of
educating the community. You know, I've spoken in schools, workplaces, universities, and it's so quick to be able to open people's eyes up to the reality of the environment that they're living in. But if you don't shine that light on it in a way that's helping them to feel empowered to create change, then we just accept the status quo. It's amazing how quickly people become advocates if they receive the right information.
I mean, those numbers speak volumes, but how many people do they think are impacted by gambling harm?
Firsthand?
I'm not talking families or are there any statistics around the number of people that actually believe do have concerns around gambling.
Gambling harm is a spectrum.
Now, we don't talk about it like there's just people you know at this point end because it's all a grooming process of normalizing it and accessing it, so accessibility. Time spent engaging with the products equals harm, either in the short term or the long term, because it's still training your brain even if you don't engage with it for another decade. Then you lose a loved one and you go, oh, I'm going to find myself in this safe environment and get exploited down the track.
Would you agree, Zent?
Absolutely? And I also think we have your emerging concerns now of younger people and in our purchases or like loot boxes in games, which are conditioning those neural pathways from such a young age and really priming very young children's brains.
What's a loot box?
A loot box in games? You can win a loot box which is basically just.
A kind of a randomized prize.
Yeah, a randomized prize in a game. And it's that same pattern of winning and the endorphin rush and the expectation that's been created for children and young people that primes their brains for gambling as they grow up. And we're seeing those emergent concerns now, and we hold the gambler's youth line here. We do get young people who are calling through with these concerns, and it's this I was playing video games as a kid and it went like this, and it's like, okay, well where do we
start from. How young are people being targeted?
So these apps that are on phones and me iPads whatever, they're playing a game and then they win a prize that might not be monetry, but they might get five more gos or something like that that's.
A loop box.
Yeah, or the win a skin for a game or something. Yeah.
That then starts altering their brain, priming them, grooming them for gambling down the track.
Oh my god, because it's eliciting the same neurological response that winning a free spin on the pokies or having a jackpot on the pokies does. It's the same neural pathways that are being targeted through these things, and it is damaging. It is problematic, and it's becoming more common. More research is being done into it. Now we have more of an understanding that there are these risks and exposures from a very young age for young people.
The gambling companies have very much got children and women in their sites. So the merging of gambling and gaming has happened.
It's here.
So part of the talks I give each year is to occupational therapists in university, one of the lecturers gets me to come in to help them to understand how to advocate for their clients, especially neurodiverse children who once accessed gaming their social connection or they're safe place. They're now screaming at their parents to put more money on their steam to keep playing games, and it's just horrific.
So if they're not prepared to know that that's gambling harm, just because it's in a game, it doesn't mean it's not gambling harm. It's the same companies are targeting an already addicted cohort for want of a better term, in the exact same way and financially exploiting them.
Knock me over with a feather.
I had no idea, and I'm pretty up to date with things, so therefore, if I have no idea, I can tell you the majority of Australians would have no idea.
Yeah.
The co design of the program that's going into schools in the Act this year, it's called Getting Played. And when I was approached to help them with that, I said, I'm not interested in something that's just going to feel.
The place of an education program.
If this education program doesn't in fact inform children about what they're engaging with, because it's not about making people who do gamble feel dumb or stupid about being exploited. It's about highlighting the industry and how it is training them and grooming them for addiction so that they can then make empowered choices about their environment.
That sounds really, really interesting, Kate. It's so important that we have these conversations with younger people, and we are treating younger people as intelligent individuals in their own right who need to be aware and fully understand what is happening and the realities of these situations.
It's just not okay that they're expected to know how to navigate that. I mean, I thought I was an adult at eighteen and had no idea.
But it doesn't discriminate.
It doesn't matter if you are a child, it doesn't matter if you're in your eighties. You are still equally as vulnerable to being preyed upon.
It. That's the reality we think about some of that language people use where they're like, I never thought this could happen to me because of X, and it's like, well, and again it comes back to kind of unpacking and shedding that shame. It's like it's not a reflection on you. You actually could not have done anything differently right now, this is the industry, this is how it works. You are still an intelligent, important individual. Now it's about moving
forward and out of this. But it's not a reflection on you.
Yeah, do you think it's everywhere? Everywhere? What hope do some people have?
People can make changes, Yeah.
But when you start looking at it through the correct lens, when you start to see it like the gross toxic space that it is, you know, changing your relationship with alcohol, when you go, okay, this is a toxic that I'm trying to ingest and pretend and that my body's okay with it. You know, if somebody finds out in their thirties that they're gluten intolerant, no one walks around going, oh my gosh, I can't believe. I can't you know, I'm such a bad human that I can't have gluten anymore.
You accept it.
You realize that that's a choice you are making for your own well being. If you choose to eat it, you're going to feel the effects of it, and it's not going to be okay. So why is there this difference between making an empowered choice about alcohol consumption or making an empowered choice about using gambling or not. You know, it's all about perspective and empowerment rather than saying you can't do this anymore, like no one can get shamed into changing, no period.
But it's just so insidious from what you got, like how you're describing it's so insidious.
It is insidious. And that's why we're a twenty four hour service. And I've spoken to people quite late into the evening and they've been like, ohla, glad you were there. I'm glad someone was there because for a lot of people, particularly early doors, when they're trying to readjust and they're trying to work through and begin to understand what they're doing in terms of their gambling, just having someone there
they can talk to in those moments. And we have conversations with people where it's like, Okay, you're driving home, you can't avoid the Pokey's call us call us when you get into the car. Or do you have a friend that you can organize to speak to on these days so that gradually the mindset can shift and the focus can shift. And but there's work early doors in making these changes. I just wish that people gave themselves
the grace to do that. And that's one of the big things I always talk about with people, is like, give yourself the grace to do this and to call us to reach out, to do whatever you need to do in these moments. Whatever you have to do to get through this is fine. It's for you. It's for your benefit.
Not having an expectation of perfection.
Yeah, you know, just allow yourself to be human and realize it took twenty years to condition you into a state. You have to give your time, your body time to adjust and don't let you know one day spo you know, spiral or have more power than it should. Just refocus and go, okay, what are my goals moving forward?
Yeah? Absolutely, And there are those days that are just more difficult. You know, we have people who are still getting in contact with us, either on the online forums on gambling help on the web, chats on the phone lines, and they'll be like, I haven't gambled in ten years, but today I just need to check in. And it's like, great,
good on you. That is amazing. And sometimes those conversations and conversations I end up just going somewhere completely tangential because they really just needed a distraction and the support in that moment. And it's like, but this is still one because all how insideful, some days I'm more difficult.
You're acknowledging that and the fact that you guys are there for them to turn to someone that isn't going to shame them, is open to the conversation, understands that, you know, they just need to chat.
How good's that?
Yeah? It is. I think it's got Every state and territory has their services, and the various states and territories have the various services for affected loved ones as well. And it's always just particularly with those online spaces we have because they are anonymous, is just making sure people can break down the earlier barriers and really forge that
connection early on. And sometimes people need to have those conversations like on the forum or viral web chat first where they're saying everything but there's no name or anything
to it. They can be really anonymous and having that space allows them to build up to speak to someone on the phone, and then they speak to someone on a phone a few times, and then they can see the counselor and they may not have stopped gambling yet, but they just needed to go through those little steps and feel comfortable having those conversations and feel held and feel heard and supported, and then they can see someone face to face and they can start to work through
how do I acknowledge this my family? What does that look like? But again giving themselves the grace to go through that process and recognize it's not always linear. And I wish as a society we were more patient with people in that way.
Absolutely.
Then if someone is struggling with gambling harm, how do they get in touch with turning point?
So for every state and territory, if they are wanting to speak to someone over the phone, so a gambling councilor twenty four hours a day for themselves or for someone else one eight hundred eight five eight eight five eight that's Gambler's Help line and that's every state of territory,
twenty four hours for everyone. If you know someone's maybe not ready to speak to someone over the phone, or having a phone calls not con convenient at that time, they can speak to us via web chat through Gambling Help Online, and they can speak to your council twenty
four to seven via web chat anonymously. Through there, they can access our online forums, so have that peer connection, and they can also access all of the information we have so psychoeducation around how to recognize gambling harm, what it means for them, how to manage urgers to gamble, things like that.
So, yeah, and Kate, if we as a community want to see change in this space, what can we do?
Book a room and get me to come and speak to your community. It's so important to educate your workplaces, your schools, your universities, your community groups so that they can, as I said, make empowered choices around this and start pushing back on environments. So lots of people will go to clubs hubs that have poke machines because they might have a cheap schnitzel. Well, guess what, Go support your local restaurant instead and make an empowered choice not to
support an industry that is harming your community. Knowingly harming your community. There is a massive push of pokey free pubs and clubs that have had a look at the gambling environment. They're not waiting for it to be properly regulated and they've gone, you know what, I'm not okay with harming my community anymore. And they make an active choice to get out of gambling products. And I think that those venues need our support and encouragement because they
are putting the community's needs first. And you know, if you're a business that can support a local soccer team or something, step up and be a sponsor so that your local club doesn't fill in that gap and then get to claim all this glory of shelling out one percent of the profits that they're making and threaten that, you know, kids' sports will go under it if anyone touches their poke machine revenue.
Put pressure on your local member that we always say that, always put pressure on your local members. We have a lot of people coming through who are just generally concerned about gambling in the community. Put pressure on your local member. This is something that needs there need to be voices behind it, and we want those voices heard absolutely.
And we need it.
We need more voices in this area because there's support around alcohol, there's support around drugs, there's minimal support around gambling. And I think the conversation needs to be had. Ladies, thank you so much. We've gone way over time, but it has been enlightening and I've written things down and the statistics are mind boggling. Then, thank you so much for what you do for our community. You are a remarkable young woman and just keep doing what you're doing.
And Kate, I feel like you're a sister from a different mister. It's just delighted you took the time to chat and just thank you for sharing. Your vulnerability was very appreciated. I can't help but have a cry these days, so that's just the menopause hidden me. But you're a remarkable woman and you know, thank you for sharing. But ladies, you guys are the bomb. And I have learned so much today on this podcast. So if I've learned heaps, I can tell you my listeners are going to too.
And I just think it's something very valuable that we've shared today and that you guys have shared.
So thank you, Thank you so much this opportunity, and it's been lovely meeting both you and again Kate, Yes, thank you for all of the work you've done and just the whole time i've been a social worker, you're working advocates. Has been so fantastic to see, So thank you, thank.
You so wonderful. Thanks Kate.
Thanks Then