With March madness getting underway, coaches are pushing their players to the limits, but an investigation finds that in some instances tough coaching can go too far. She would call us Less low of the low. On the Sunday story, coaches accused of emotional abuse. and the players who push back. Story from the Up First Podcast. Listen now on the NPR app. This is the TED Radio Hour. Each week. Ted talks. Our job now is to dream big. Delivered at TED Conferences.
the future we want to see around the world to understand who we are. From those talks, we bring you speakers and Ideas that will surprise you. You just don't know what you're gonna find. Challenge you. We truly have to ask ourselves like why is it noteworthy? And even change you. I literally feel like I'm a different person. Yes. Do you feel that way? Ideas worth spreading. And NPR. I'm Minoosh Zamaroti. These are the sounds of a family of otters. They're in a river, some adults with their pups.
And then they start to form sort of a line, a chain of otters. Corraling the small fish swimming amongst them. They herd fish with their pups. They technically corral them because they're often corralling them against a a fixed surface like the side of a canal. This is Philip Johns. He's a biologist and geneticist who studies animal behavior like those in these otters. And I think what's going on is the pups are following really simple rules that might go
Swim next to mom. If there's a fish in front of me, eat it. And the adults are coordinating things through their vocalization. So you know there's one vocalization that somebody's saying that's like okay dive you know here we go and they all dive together and that's really cool Otter behavior is, of course, fascinating, but what's more surprising perhaps is where exactly these otters are. on the Pacific coast or in North American rivers.
These otters are living and thriving in the middle of one of the busiest, most modern cities in the world. Singapore. It's got this crazy enormous architecture, and it is kind of a city in a jungle. A city-state, home to six million people and all kinds of high-tech companies, all surrounded by trees and water. And because of this geography, the city is a mix Sky scrapers. End wildlife. Uh some of that wildlife is extremely charismatic.
We have pied hornbills, these birds with really, really large bills. We have things like like flying lizards. They're in the genus Dred. We have Calugos, which is one of my favorite. These strange nocturnal and gliding mammals. And then there are tons of snakes in Singapore, some of them are quite beautiful. But I remember when one of my early outings somebody said, Oh yeah, when you walk over there, just keep your eyes open because there's a cobra that hangs out around there.
Yesterday I was walking home and you know, I I walk home between these these brand new giant condos. You know, they're over thirty f floors high, they're glass and steel. And I look up and there's a white bellied sea eagle, you know, this this very large bird circling one of the condos. And it and it's it's just incredible because you know it's it's kind of like this juxtaposition
of you know, nature and modernity. Which brings us back to the otters that live here too. The Asian small clawed otter. And the more common and larger smooth-coated otter. This is a really social species of otter. They have multiple broods that live with the dominant pair, the matriarch and the patriarch. And so you might have a family of twenty animals. And this might be, you know, three successive broods of offspring that are still living with the parents.
Harmonious, large families of otters sound lovely. But here's the problem with all these otter families prospering side by side. They defend territories and they defend them violently. They fight. And the the fights are injurious. You know, otters get hurt. Sometimes otters get killed. Uh it's not pleasant to watch. Philip remembers one particular beef between two otter families that played out downtown. And by right downtown, I mean right.
Downtown at rush hour. The otters would swim toward each other and they're screaming at each other and they're swimming around, they're biting, and the the water is beat to a froth. And you look on the banks and there are literally thousands, tens of thousands of people who are on their way to work, you know, walking along the the banks of the the rivers and it just incredibly dramatic. Every day we hear about nations, different groups of people struggling to get along.
Humanity seems unable to overcome its differences. But what can we learn from more unusual examples of strange bedfellows? How are different species? ideas or provocative scientific ideas, maybe even conflicting emotions, finding ways to live in harmony. Today on the show, coexistence. Ideas about what we can do to adapt, make peace with, maybe even find pleasure in conflict.
When biologist Philip Johns first arrived in Singapore, he learned that this wasn't the first time that rowdy families of otters had made their home there. All of this was just incredible to me. Here he is on the Ted stage. Part of the reason it was incredible to everybody is that the otters were returning after a long absence. So um we know that there were otters in Singapore in sometime before the mid-20th century, but then Singapore started to change.
It modernized, it started to industrialize, and all of a sudden the waterways got filthy. What happened was they started to fill with sludge, industrial pollution, and dead animals to the point where they stank. And otters live in water. They eat fish in water, and they couldn't eat and live in waterways that were that dirty. So they left. But things changed again. Singapore enacted policies to clean up their waterways, and they were really, really successful.
So all of a sudden, instead of having waterways that were filled with filth, we had waterways that were filled with fish. And from the otters' point of view, they were feeding troughs. So they came back. And now we have lots of otters all over Singapore. How many otters are we talking here? Are we talking like you turn a corner and you look at water and there's an otter there?
Yeah. The otters live in the waterways and the waterways typically have some kind of park around them. I think they're probably twenty families and uh if you're an otter, being an otter is pretty cool in Singapore because you know, you wake up You roll around in the dirt and You play and then you go back to sleep. Um and it's I mean it's it's it's kinda awesome.
And so I can be on one side of the river, looking across the river, watching a family of otters do its thing through binoculars or a camera, and they're absolutely unfazed. So they they don't take any mind of you. But I have to ask you, like if you put in the words Otter and Singapore, there's some crazy headlines that come up. Uh yeah. So not all the the interactions have been benign.
There have been a very few instances where the otters have bitten people. And I think all of those were cases where either somebody was behaving unwisely or where the otters had pups. And when when otters have young pups, they become defensive. They're less likely to be sort of sanguine about people getting close to them. Yeah,'cause I have to say, like the especially the British press. Seems to love picking up stories like this one.
That case, as I understand it, was a case where the man was very close to a group of otters, uh, and it was a big family, and another man jogged directly through the group of otters. And in this case the guy who got bit, it was kind of an innocent bystander, but the otters got confused. Um you know, it's hard to think of of a situation where running through a group of wild animals is acceptable. Um and and the the otters aren't small. The they they can hurt somebody.
So that's been one issue and it has been an issue. Um and otters also have eaten a lot of fish. People keep fish in Singapore. Uh people keep Koi and these koi are large, they're expensive, they're long lived, they're pets. You know, and when I say expensive I mean uh the koi pond might have tens of thousands of dollars of koi in it.
you know, those kinds of human wildlife conflicts are things that we we can't kind of sweep away. We have to be realistic about them. But within that context, I think there's room for people and animals to coexist, even in some place that's as urban as Singapore. And so people who might start otter watching because they want to get photographs of cute pups might continue to do other things because they've formed a connection with nature.
And we see this all the time that people care about nature when they form some connection to nature. Whether that connection is to otters, Or to a pair of hornbills on campus, or to a bird that visits them on their balcony. We need these personal connections, and we see them all over the place. Singapore has enacted a lot of policies that make these kinds of connections a lot easier.
There are over 300 parks and nature reserves. Singapore has a plan that no one should be more than ten minutes away from some kind of park. One of the effects of this is that people will have more chances to interact with nature, and they'll have more chances to care.
I think we're trying to get away from something where nature is over there on the other side of a fence or a wall or something like that. Nature is something that's around us and above us and beside us, and that's true in lots of places, including in cities. So I think this also raises other questions such as can cities be wildlife refuges? Is this something that we can protect and maybe foster and grow?
As cities grow and there are more humans on the planet and we spread and take more space, what are some of the lessons that other city dwellers or urban planners can take from how humans and otters are figuring out ways to coexist. We have to be realistic that we can accommodate all wildlife, I think. Um having said that, we can be remarkably um accepting of a lot of wildlife. You know, one of the most amazing things to me was uh the mountain lion that lived in Griffith Park in uh Los Angeles.
for years. And, you know, not everybody is thrilled about it. And there's good reason to be concerned about having a large wild cat living inside the city of Los Angeles. But I think for the most part, people were kind of proud of it. Um
If you go to social media sites of people who have things like camera traps in their backyard, a lot of people are thrilled that they have bobcats periodically in their backyard or that they're coyotes that come and visit in their backyard. And again, there is the potential for human-wildlife conflict. Coyotes eat a lot of cats and dogs.
You know, we have to be clear-eyed about that. But I think in many cases we can make some some very modest concessions. And when we do, um coexistence is certainly possible and it's maybe something that can be encouraged. So you know that's that's my hope. It really is kinda wonderful to do things like walk to Right. You know, just just amazing things like this. Or to see, you know, eagles flying among the the skyscrapers, you know, just crazy things like that.
You know, if if familiarity breeds empathy then I think it helps us to have more familiarity. Philip Johns. Associate Professor at the Yale National University. You can watch his full talk at TED. Ideas about coexistence. I'm Minush Zamarodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR. We'll be right back. With March madness getting underway. She would call us On the Sunday story, coaches accused of emotional Players who push back. Listen now on the MPR app.
It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR. One, two, three, four, five. Can you hear me? I'm Manush Zamarodi. Hi, Avi. Hi, good to speak with you, Manush. And you, and too. Today on the show. Coexistence. It sounds like it's clicking in and out a little bit. Okay, let me see. Maybe the connection here with other humans, animals, and whatever is out there.
Yes. Would you mind just introducing yourself? Tell us your name and what you do. My name is Avi Loeb, and I'm I have the privilege of uh being a scientist, meaning that I can follow my childhood curiosity without pretending to be the adult in the room. If you know a lot about astrophysics. You know who Avi Loeb is.
For the past four decades, he has been a leader in the field. I'm a tenured professor at Harvard University, and um I was also chair of the astronomy department at Harvard for Avi has published over a thousand scientific papers. On black holes and how the first stars and galaxies formed. I've been the director of the Institute for Theory and Computation at Harvard. I was the founding director. of uh Harvard's Black Hole Initiative.
chaired the board of physics and astronomy of the National Academy. But over the last decade or so he has put that reputation in jeopardy By searching for something else in the cosmos. I think it will be the biggest discovery in science ever made. In terms of its impact on the future of humanity. Signs of life. We are searching for. Artifacts that may have been manufactured by extraterrestrial civilizations. That's right. Avi is looking for aliens.
Yes, that's my latest hobby. But why? Why go on a quest that to some of his fellow scientists sounds ridiculous? You know, one reason I search for higher intelligence in interstellar. As far as Avi is concerned, the scientific method requires us to ask questions and seek answers. So why is he doing this? He says, why not? But exploring the possibility of extraterrestrial life has created a huge rift between him and many of his colleagues.
They are questioning whether his ideas should even exist within their scientific mind. Just as Offie wonders whether we humans coexist with other life forms. Espaço é vasto. Tens of thousands of light years just within the Milky Way galaxy alone. So to imagine, you know, there are other beings. On similar rocks far away. I mean you're right. We love to watch movies about uh other We might not be alone. It is fascinating to people.
And and you are saying, well, you know, let's use the science to see if there is a way. Sure. Exactly. Let's use the scientific method, which is basically let's not imagine anything the way Let's not assume it. To make progress uh we need to You have to put In order to design instruments that Here's Avi Lobby. I'm just a curious farm boy. And I wonder about the world around me. And I hate to behave. Like the adults in the room.
Because they often pretend to know more than we actually know. And that bothered me since I was a young kid. And so I decided to become a scientist and answer the questions based on evidence. Not based on prejudice. And for 70 years we've been searching for radio signals. This is equivalent to staying at home and waiting for a phone call that may never come because nobody cares that we are lonely. A much better approach.
is to check if there is any object in our backyard that may have arrived from a neighbor's yard. Like a tennis ball that may tell us that the neighbor plays tennis. People often say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but they are not seeking the evidence. So let's just look around. Thank you. To understand why Avi began his search for alien life, we need to go back to twenty when scientists spotted a strange object.
Sky. This was an object called Omuamua, which means a scout in the Hawaiian language. It was discovered by a telescope. Named the Pan Stars in Hawaii on Mount Haleakala. Umuamua was unlike anything Avi and other astrophysicists had ever seen before, and it raised a lot of questions, namely, what was it? And where did it come from? At first, you know, we just knew that this is an object from outside the solar system because it
To be bound by gravity to the sun. And so it was clear beyond any doubt that it came from outside the solar system. So Everyone assumed that it must be an asteroid or a comet, the type of objects we find within the solar system. Rocks or icy rocks. But there was no cometary tale. Even more perplexing was the way that the object moved through space. The object showed a push away from the sun by some mysterious force. And so it's as if there was something pushing it away from the sun.
It's a non gravitational acceleration. But there was no cometary evaporation, no gas or dust around it, so the question was Scientists looked for an explanation. Imagining a hydrogen iceberg, a chunk of frozen hydrogen, which so then someone has said, Well maybe And then someone else said, Well, maybe it's a dust bunny. But Avi wasn't convinced. He suggested another hypothesis that perhaps umuamua was not naturally occurring.
Perhaps it was produced by something or someone from another planet. Perhaps it was alien technology. And just the suggestion that it might be artificial got me into trouble. I was not supposed to consider that possibility. How dare you even think about that? Uh-huh. It's a rock of a type. Period. who said that he was leaping to the conclusion that Umua Mua was proof of aliens without exhausting every other possibility.
Had issues, and I just said let's keep the artificial origin on the table because we are producing. Then in 2023, two scientists published a paper in Nature with a new explanation for Umua. That it was simply a comet with no tail. Scientists now call this a dark comet, an object. But looks like an asteroid. The explanation does not satisfy. Because the only way you define a comet is by detecting its cometary tale. That's what a comet is.
If you say that an elephant is an unstriped zebra, you know that sounds strange because it's not the same animal. Okay? And so my point is: when you don't see a cometary tail, don't call it a comet. In 2024, researchers found more objects that move like comets but look more like asteroids, calling them dark comets. By now, most scientists have moved on from the umamua debate. But the public has not. Ever since his suggestion that Umuamua could be a sign of alien life,
Avi has gotten more attention and funding from people outside the world of astrophysics. He may have lost favor with his colleagues, but he's gained a whole new audience. Yes, on the one hand, uh the public uh really by this possibility and Got a huge amount of attention from the media, something that I was not familiar with before. And I was also contacted by a literary agent to write a book which ended up being extraterrestrial, became bestseller and.
I uh participate in about uh thirty-five hundred uh podcast interviews. Uh Netflix is producing a documentary. Thanks to all this attention, in 2021, Avi co-founded the Galileo Project at Harvard, a research program dedicated to searching for alien technology on and near Earth. Javi and his team have received millions of dollars in private funding from a long list of uber wealthy donors. We built uh an observatory at Harvard University. It's a unique observer.
and looking at very distant sources. And uh in particular searching for objects near Earth uh that are just overhead and they we are using uh infrared cameras, optical cameras. radio uh sensors, audio sensors, and analyzing the data with machine learning software using state of the art algorithms to
Figure out if there are any objects that are not familiar. I'm not trying to imagine what might be out there. I'm just saying we know about birds, we know about airplanes, leaves, clouds, satellites, balloons, drones. These are things we know about and is there anything else? And if we find an object that is maneuvering in ways that does not mimic the flight characteristics of known objects, We will write a paper about it and share it with the scientific community.
For me, m having more data is really a bliss because once you have a lot of data, It will become clear whether we're dealing with a rock of a type that we've never seen before, or maybe some artificial object. And at some point it won't it would be impossible to ignore. And these are s scientists on earth right now who would say why are you giving Avi Lob the mic? Pariah in your field.
And sucking all the oxygen out of the room. There's a lot of ire towards you, uh, a a field that Embraced you for the longest time, and now what's it like? Yeah. Don't like that but one thing I learned. You know, if you don't want to get dirty, uh don't you know? So I don't respond to those. still the director of the Institute for Theoreman Computation. I work with postdocs. I just gave a lecture at the Black Hole Initiative about primordial black hole.
I continue to work on other subjects The people who know me, you know, are very supportive because they know that I'm doing it not out of any other reason than advocating for something I believe in that be studied. And you know, I I borrowed the approach from the research on dark matter that I worked on early on in my career. You know, we don't know what eighty-five percent of the matter in the universe is. So
Billions of dollars are spent on the searches for dark matter. Specific types of particles that were proposed by theorists like myself were very much rewarded by attention and so forth. So I have that experience. And for me it's no different. But for some reason, this particular subject is making some people very upset. And those are people who are upset about the public attention.
You know, when I gave my class at Harvard, in the opening lecture, I asked the students, what is the strongest force in academia? Is it gravity? Is it electromagnetism? Quiet and and then I answer the question myself. No, it's jealousy. How will you know for sure what would be the moment where you could tell the rest of the world, yes, we are not alone. There we are coexisting with a
Uh uh something else that is alive. Well that's uh relatively straightforward if you have good enough data. For example, if we had an image. Of an interstellar object, and you see bolts and screws, and you see that it looks like a technological object. There is no doubt that it's not a rock. That would be clear evidence. Let's say this did happen. How would it change things for us? What what you must have imagined this scenario in your mind.
Yes. Uh I think it will change our perspective because you know, when you find a partner. It changes the meaning of your existence. We know that from our personal lives. And here I'm just talking about finding a partner in the global. Scheme of the cosmos. These are all the Earth-Sun systems. You know, there are hundreds of billions of them in the Milky Way galaxy alone.
We see so many houses like our own, and to me it's very natural to imagine that there are residents that we can learn from. So just paying attention to our cosmic neighborhood. Yeah, we'll Allow us to mature and realize that what we usually care about is not as important as the bigger scheme of things. And we could do better by paying attention to our neighbors. When I look up at the sky at night.
I see a hundred billion stars of the Milky Way galaxy. They look like lights in cabins of a giant spaceship, the Milky Way, sailing through space. I wonder if there are other passengers in those cabins. There are a hundred billion of them. Comparable to the number of Whoever lives on earth. It would be arrogant. To think otherwise that we and special. Especially if you read the news every day. We are not the pinnacle of creation. There is room for improvement.
And so the next Copernican revolution center of the universe. Not only that we are not at the physical center of the universe, but actually You know we arrived to the play relatively late, we are not at the same time. We keep thinking. And we better find other actors. That was astrophysicist Avi Loeb. He is a professor of science at Harvard University. Of astronomy. Since we spoke, Avi has put out similar theories about another interstellar object called 3i Atlas, which was discovered in 2025.
It is still being studied, but for now, NASA and the majority of the scientific community maintain that its origins are alien. You can see Avi Loeb's fulltalk at TED dot com. On the show today, Coexistence. I'm Anush Zamarodi and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR. Stay with us. With March madness getting underway, coaches are pushing their players to the limits. But an investigation finds that in some instances, tough coaches are
Worthless, low of the low. On the Sunday story, coaches accused of emotional. And the players who push back. It's the Ted Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Minoosh Zamarodi. On the show today, we are exploring coexistence. And our next speaker tells us the story of her family, a warning we do talk about suicide. We really can't have happiness without sadness. We can't have joy without pain.
We also cannot have bravery without fear. Instead of being opposites, those things are teammates. It took writer Laurel Breatman decades to understand this lesson. But the seeds were planted in her childhood. Quite literally, she grew up on an avocado ranch outside of Los Angeles. We are about twenty miles inland in a really gorgeous canyon. So you can often smell avocados. Or lemon trees blooming. Her earliest memories are of her parents teaching her and her brother.
How to work on the ranch. You know, pulling out orchards that were failing and planting new orchards, rebuilding the main ranch house, restoring the corrals. Really just rehabbing the landscape in a lot of ways. We helped uh spread fertilizer and And we would just kind of take breaks and play and then come back and have Alongside those farming chores, Laurel's father also taught them some other life lessons.
But they were really specific skills to like what my dad cared about. So like all the member nations of the UN, how the Dewey Decimal system works. He really wanted me to like beat men at things that were stereotypically male. That was like a thing a point of pride. So he wanted me to be to be able to like outfish any guy who might dare underestimate me, or repair a carburetor, or be really good at pool. These were skills he wanted to pass on,
Because when Laurel was three years old, her father was diagnosed with bone cancer. It started in his knee. then metastasized and spread to other parts of his body. And so from that day forward, We lived between scans. So sometimes we would get, you know, six months, sometimes we would have six weeks. The longest we ever had.
Um before he had a recurrence was about four and a half, five years. Oh wow. So that was a great period of time. But that's how we lived. You know, we t we tried to fit as much life and memory making and togetherness into those periods of time. um between therapy or surgery or treatment or scan.
So, for most of her childhood, Laurel grew up with a constant feeling of dread, knowing that every one of those lessons and memory-making moments was her father's attempt to make the most of the time he had left. So another thing my dad did was that um he taught himself how to be a beekeeper and he knew that ancient Egyptians had used honey to treat wounds and for other medical applications. It's a really good natural antibiotic.
And because of that, honey that the Egyptians put away is still good. Like in some cases thousands of years later. So he started putting away a lot of honey, like buckets and buckets of honey. And he knew that the honey would outlive him. And I think
He hoped that you know we would stir it into our coffee or our tea long after he was gone and we would think of him and we would know how much he loved us. Mm. So scared and heartbroken that he was gonna have to leave us before we were ready, before he was ready. Amazingly, he he lived fourteen years um with this disease. So he outlived his prognosis many, many times over. And you know, he always used to tell us like when I can enjoy life with you and your mom and your brother. I'm gonna die.
And then I was a junior in a high school A pill bottle and there was a little note tied around it. There was dosage instructions on the note. And I kind of immediately knew what it was. Um suddenly everything clicked into place and I realized my dad had a lethal prescription. Um, you know, right to diamond. was not legal in California though at the time and so I knew I wasn't supposed to know about this. And so I just wrapped it up and I put it back in the cabinet and I never spoke of it again.
And so that added another sort of dread layer I'd say to the everyday where I knew he had this, but I didn't know when he was gonna. And he didn't know when he was gonna take it. Tell us w how it finally happened. About six months later, he and I got into a terrible fight on the phone. I wasn't at home and I had called home and
Yeah, he was hassling me about my college applications of all things. They were they were due in a few weeks in Um he was telling me I had to get them in and you know, I was a surly teenager, you know, and I and I yelled at him and I was like, I don't know why you're giving me such a hard time like I was so mad and I hung up on him. And as I was hanging the phone back in the cradle could hear him say
strongly through the phone, I love you. And I was just like, I am not saying that back. He needs to know he's being unreasonable. And I slammed the phone down. And unbeknownst to me, um, that was the last time we would talk. And the reason he was hassling with me was because he knew he was gonna take his um medical aid and dying medication.
and he knew I was gonna be upset and not be able to apply to college and he wanted to make sure I did it. And by the time I got home A few hours later he had taken his medication and he was unconscious and I would never hear his voice again. That was your senior year of high school? Yeah, it w I was seventeen. I mean it's kind of amazing what happened next. You At least on the face of it. absolutely thrive.
you went to Cornell University, you played Division One sports after being an all-American lacrosse player. You were class president. You were a Zuma Kun Laudi, you you you wrote best selling books, like y you went to MIT for a PhD, like you again, on the face of it, did your father proud. Yeah, you know, I did. Um you know, in the wake of his death.
I felt so guilty. I I lived with a crushing sense of guilt that you know, someone who was good would not have hung up on her dying father, would have said she loved him, here here was somebody uh For time to teach me things, you know, like how to beat a man at pool, you know, I felt because. That that when it really mattered, um I I had let him down. And so I took his dreams for me. And rather than seeing them as like a parent's dreams for their child, like I took them as a literal to-do list.
And I went down the list and I was like, okay, he wanted this for me. I'm gonna do this. He wanted that. He didn't get to see this place. I'm gonna make sure I get to see this place. And I uh I really approached his dreams for me as like marching orders. I dealt with his death by doubling down on the things he wanted for me. And then in my mid-30s, I realized I was just completely
Laurel Breitman continues from the TED stage. I had been living my entire adult life in a way to prove to myself that I was good. I was using achievement and all of the shiny things that come along with it as a way of anesthetizing my own bad feelings of shame, regret, and fear. Those feelings were so big. I worried that if I let myself feel them for even a minute, I would never ever feel anything else again. You cannot kill negative feelings, sadly, with work and avoidance.
And mine came back with a jolt. On the outside, I was successful and thriving. And on the inside, I was anxious, terrified, and questioning my worth. By avoiding all of the negative feelings. I was muting the fantastic ones too. I was so scared about missing out and losing more of the best things in life, joy, awe, love, wonder, that I couldn't even let myself experience them. I needed to find a new way to be. I wanted to find a new way to be.
I had learned that when a young person has a trauma, they can get stuck developmentally at that age of whatever age you were when the hard thing happened. So I was kind of like, you know, a Pleistocene ant in amber, but as a seventeen year old.
So I got sort of developmentally stuck in some ways at seventeen and I felt like I needed some help moving past that and opening myself up to feeling everything. Yeah, I mean, how did you come to that realization? Because you say it took you years to understand that your father expected himself to be superhuman. And by extension, you too. How how did you
figure out that like I mean that could be the end of the story and my father died and I took everything he taught me and I had this amazing life but you know Yeah, if only. I mean what happened was was a little bit harder to understand. And I I reached the end of the list. and I wasn't happy. Immediately, you know, what I noticed kind of first was that it was getting really, really hard for me to be in relationships.
And I really wanted to be in love and I wanted partnership. And when I got close to people, I got really uncomfortable. I think I was just, you know, scared. To this day, I hate falling in love. You know, it's terrible to love anyone or anything. Because it can be taken from you. So I did a bunch of stuff. I interviewed a ton of grief specialists and therapists, but what hit me the hardest was becoming a volunteer at a grief support organization for kids.
So many of them thought they were bad too. They'd been out of the room playing when their mom died, or they'd said something in anger to an ill parent that they regretted. And I could so clearly see that the painful things that happened to these kids were not their fault. For the first time I was able to see that that was probably true for me too. By blaming themselves, the kids were making their losses make sense.
Even though it hurt to blame themselves, it gave them a reason for the terrible thing that happened. Like losing someone they love for no reason at all. Maybe some of you can relate. When we feel difficult things, we blame ourselves because it's easier than admitting we have no control. That's what I had been doing for the twenty five years since my dad died. But just because you feel guilt and shame does not mean you did something wrong.
Just because you feel regret does not necessarily mean you should have acted differently. It sounds very simple and it is very hard to accept. Is nothing except one long sushi conveyor belt of things that are going to test you and teach you at the same time. Well what struck you about the way these kids were processing or dealing with losing someone in their life that was different from what you had gone through?
At a center like this, um, the kids are around other kids who have had similar experiences and was a really powerful thing for me to watch. One activity we would do is, you know, draw your grief. And I remember sitting next to one child who was drawing a sneaker wave of grief, kind of like a tsunami. And I remember them getting pretty sad, explaining it. And then two seconds later, like they're on the jungle gym, you know, shrieking with joy.
And watching that really affected me profoundly because I realized I could do the same for myself. that um I the hard things could live alongside my joy, that I could be working um and I could take a beat and I could let myself have a have a moment and then I could get right back into it. Uh what did happy sad or this coexistence of two
vastly different emotions or we think of them as being vastly different. What did that look like for you? I had to learn how to do it. I think I saw the depth of my despair. And it scared me so much that I needed to to bury it. Mm-hmm. And it really wasn't until I realized that that grief that I had tried to to lock away and that was masquerading as um self-doubt and as shame and guilt. was gonna keep me from what I wanted most in life, which is
to love other people well and to be of service and to connect with people and places and things. Mm-hmm. But I will say it's like a daily practice and it comes up in the damnedest ways. So Like I have this thing that uh I can't add someone to my favorites list on my phone or something terrible will happen to them.
And so I finally like I think we'd been married for like a year. I like finally added my husband to my favorites list on my iPhone and was like, you can you can do this, Oral, it's gonna be fine. And guess what? He is still with us.
you know, I live in an area too, for example, where wildfires are now a constant threat and I have to make peace with that, you know, so I was so scared that if I hung the things I loved on the wall that they would burn down, that I you know, it would slow me down from grabbing them as I as I left the house. You know, so I i this is a daily, daily practice where I have to live with the anxiety and the fear and somehow And pleasure find a way in around it and through it.
That was best-selling author Laurel Breatman. Her latest book is called What Looks Like Bravery: An Epic Journey Through Life. To love. You can see her talks at TED.com. By the way, in 2017. A wildfire did reach Laurel's childhood home. The ranch burned down, and she lost many of the structures her father had built to pass on. Miraculously, uh the chicken coop survived, which was incredible. And a few other things. Including one small shed. Uh was going through it and uh we f we found
A bucket of honey. Um like a five gallon bucket of honey. Um it was fine. It wasn't even small. You know, even in the wake of like the devastation of the wildfire, the million other kinds of losses that come for us and had come for me, um, the honey itself was just perfect, as if it had just been poured in the bucket yesterday. And so now, you know, I d I don't have any family photos left or very few.
If you or someone you know may be considering suicide or is in crisis, call or text nine eight eight to reach the suicide and crisis lifeline. Thank you so much for listening to our show today. This episode was produced by James Delahousie, Katie Montaleon, and Harsha Nahada. It was edited by Sanas Meshkinpour, Rachel Faulkner White, and
Me. Our production staff at NPR also includes Fiona Giran and Matthew Cloutier. Our executive producer is Irene Nagucci. Our audio engineers were Jimmy Keeley, Becky Brown, and Zo Vangenhold. Our theme music was written by Ramtin Arablui. Our partners at TED are Chris Anderson, Roxanne Hilash, Alejandra Salazar, and Daniela Bellarezzo. I'm Minoush Zamarodi, and you have been listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR.
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