Uber Breaks Scott's Heart

end of part one. So here is part two, where I end up asking Scott some really tough questions about Uber and autonomous cars and a future where car ownership may become a thing of the past. If you listen carefully, you can hear the exact moment his heartbreaks. Here we go, you know, to really dive into this topic. I decided I could not do this as just a solo episode, so I have brought in the foremost mind on automotive issues here at How Stuff Works, Scott Benjamin. Scott, thanks

for coming in. Oh, thank you much. The foremost mind maybe on this floor in this building, I think for How Stuff Works was a fair clarification. Yeah, we're we're um, We're happy to have you on again, And of course, I mean I love having Scott on the show because Scott is game for anything. Thank you appreciated. I'd love being here. It's a fun conversation usually. Yeah, this was great because I actually I came up to Scott today this morning a little peek behind the curtain and said,

would you mind jumping in? You said sure. So we're gonna talk a little bit about the implications of Uber and sort of I want to I want to kind of find out what your thoughts are on Uber the service in general, and also more specifically this proposed future of Uber where we have a fleet of electric robo cars taking us wherever we go, and we don't own

any of them with no driver. With no driver, yeah, because you know, you want to get rid of that pesky person that you have to pay, so autonomous Uber vehicles is what we're talking about. Yeah, all right, Uh, well it's an interesting thought, isn't it. Yeah, I figured so. So for those who don't know you, Scott, I think it's fair to say that you enjoy cars. I've really

enjoyed Yeah, yeah, every every aspect of it. And you know, I I initially when I when I started doing our own car stuff podcast years ago, seven, eight years ago, whatever it is now. Um, I was a nonbeliever in the self driving vehicles well, and especially at that time. I mean the technology was so young, right yeah. I think we've talked about that that it required so much infrastructure at that time, even even seven years ago for

it to work. You know, they've been toying around with this for a long long time, I mean decades, and I've seen some of the older vehicles, you know, from the early in eighteen seventies, late nineteen sixties that had enormous boxes that were tied to them and they were there were embedded wires in the road, and you know, even then they sort of worked, but not really. You know, it was it was kind of just a mixed match of all different types of components that were added to

the vehicle, add ons to a standard vehicle. And now they're designing cars to be autonomous in different ways, like with um you know, the lane departure systems and the you know, the the adaptive cruise control systems and you know all that stuff that exactly all those little components that are now starting to come together starting to gel I guess into one vehicle that is doing all that

stuff with much smaller, smaller components. Try. I guess, you know, because the technology is getting better, you no longer have these like gigantic cones or periscopes or things necessarily, although depending on some of the vehicles, like Google's approach tends to have, you know, a noticeable protrusion on the top of the vehicle, and you realize that's where a lot of the brains or at least the senses of this

vehicle reside. Sure, but their cars out there that have that same stuff and it's all embedded within, you'd never know that it's there. And the biggest thing about this whole thing, and I know that I do that kind of lead in for every time I talk about autonomous vehicles, but the biggest thing is the the the removal of the requirement of the infrastructure for this to work. Yeah, the fact that the early vision of autonomous cars were

it really wasn't about the cars. It was about the freeways, right, Like the idea of these autonomous highways that cars would kind of link into almost like a slot car, and and the vehicle itself would be largely a dumb machine that would respond to the the needs and the commands of the highway. We we moved away from that where all of that ended up being internalized into the vehicle.

Although you know, there's some discussion about making smart roads and um, larger systems that are made up of these individual components, almost like the cars become neurons in a

brain that's made up of highways and other vehicles. But for the most part, we've we've kind of moved all of that technology into the vehicle itself, which definitely removes a lot of the problems that we saw seven or eight years ago, when the thought was in order for this to work, we'd have to make such a huge change in existing infrastructure that it's too large of a job and too expensive of a prospect for it to ever become a reality. Sure. Yeah, And I mean we

still are seeing little bits of this and that. You know, there's self parking cars and they only work in certain parking lots, uh, you know, parking lots that have that technology embedded within the within the pavement or in the walls or however it works. Um. But yeah, I'm now a firm believer in the idea that this can This is possible, this can happen, and the the idea that somebody would summon a taxi an Uber, I guess, an Uber vehicle instead of a taxi, and I have it,

you know, arrive on the scene within thirty seconds. I think that's the goal here, right, arrive in thirty seconds and you get in and it takes you to where you want to go automatically and lets you out your charge, which, of course, you know, the way Uber normally does. There's no cash transactiontion has to happen or anything like that, um aside from having to have an awkward conversation with the driver. Uh, this this seems like it's a good

way to go, right. I mean, just imagine that you throw in as long as you throw in the ability to have voice commands, to have the radio station of your choice playing. Yeah. Did I say that right? Because what I was saying was, you know, you usually, I guess in a typical cab, I always feel that that pressure to kind of chat with the guy. I would I would say that for at least the first two miles of any trip in any vehicle, I feel there's a social obligation to attempt a conversation and based upon

how awkward that conversation is. At the end of two miles, you then have to make a very tough decision do I continue this awkward experience or is it okay for me to trail off at this point. I've had many enjoyable conversations with cab drives chest and I'm sure that Uber drivers are the same way I've had. I've had conversations that, for one, don't involve working for Uber, that that you have to get through. There are a couple of things you gotta get past right there, the typical conversations.

So this is true for taxi drivers as well. Uh, there's there's the weather, and there's traffic. Those are the two you gotta get past first. Then with Uber you have to get past the so yeah, I love Uber or whatever, or you don't love Uber, or however you want to breach that, and then after that you can

get into other areas of conversation. I've had some great ones, but I know a lot of people who say that's one of those elements about this that they are looking forward to saying goodbye to the the uh, the feeling that you are forced to have a social interaction which might say a lot about are continuing journey on this pathway where we compartmentalize everything and we no longer have to deal with people like we we can do all our shopping online, we can do all of our we

can ride around in a robot car. That says a lot about who we are as people. But at the same time, you think, well, if you just want to you just want to get to where you're going, and you're not looking to have that kind of interaction, You're you know, you just you're just literally you just need to get from point A to point B. I can see the appeal in it. Yeah, I can't too. I

can understand that. Now. I wonder, I just wonder how many people are gonna be really comfortable the first time they get into a vehicle that has no driver that then sets out onto New York City street and uh and all the congestion and traffic and people and all that that comes with that, you know, knowing that, and I would assume they know already that this is going to be an autonomous vehicle. It's kind of pick them

up because the Apple tell them that. You know, because normally a spot that shows you shows your driver, you know, who it is. If it just shows you a picture of a vehicle, then that's that's an indicator right there. Ye, well, I mean it's it's really going to be incident, interesting or fascinting to see how people react to that, especially if they're not really accustomed to it, you know, the

very first ride that they ever take. I would be just be excited to see what people's reaction to be, like, you know, an in car camera view of people kind of laughing, giggling about it. You know, it's got to be kind of scary in a way, but also fun. Yeah, exhilarating. Yeah,

almost like an amusement park right at first. Really, I think I think wherever when we get to the point where Uber is ready to launch a prototype version of this, like a beta version of this, that will definitely be part of It will probably end up being one of those things where you use the app it asks would

you be willing to do this? And if so, do you agree to allow video of this to be displayed because obviously otherwise you've got this whole privacy issue about a person getting into a vehicle and having their their video image taken. But I would I would jump at that chance. You know, you make a good point. I was thinking about this. What happens? Okay, so, um, let's say that a group of people are out drinking at night, and uh, invariably there's gonna be somebody who gets sick

in the car car sick? Right? What happens in Drivel's car? Because there's nobody there to say this car is out of service right because of this issue? You know, like an uber driver or taxi driver would say, I gotta, I gotta take an hour off and get this cleaned up. What happens in an autonomous vehicle that has another stop scheduled forty five seconds away from where they just dropped

that Person's an excellent question. I wonder. I don't know how that's gonna have to have you have to have puke sensors inside the vehicle, because that would be to be an unpleasant surprise. Yeah, no, I definitely I would not. I mean, I'm sure one way one thing you could

do to address that. It's not the ideal version, obviously, is that you build into the app the ability to say the car that was sent is needs to be serviced, and then the robot car would immediately high tail it back to h Q and then another vehicle would be

sent out. But that requires the person to already have experienced the unpleasant scenario of opening up a door and going, whoa that is not fit for human beings to get into right now, that's true, and you can't rely on the person before that too, you know, I don't know, hit a button or something that said send back to

main service brand. You certainly wouldn't want anyone to be able to abuse, such like someone just being a jerk and saying, all right now for haasake, I'm gonna push this button and the car is going to go offline, which is going to affect possibly someone else down the line by making them wait an extra minute and a half or however long it might be. I mean, that's an interesting question that I don't think there's an answer to yet unless you do have, um, some other weird

sensors in there. Even if you have a camera, you still have to have someone watching it to see what's going on, right, So you know, some of the other things that I was just thinking about a few different scenarios of things that could happen. And you know, there's a limit in cabs when you when you get in, there's a you know, a seat limit, you know, a number of people that are allowed to share affair, and

otherwise they're charged more. How do they how do they protect against something like that in in an autonomous vehicle where there's not a driver to say, hey, wait a minute,

you can't put eight people in this car? Well, you know, and I've seen for for that because as Uber does not add an extra fee for the number of people who are right, I've actually seen the suggestion that for the Uber app, you would end up indicating how larger party is when you would request it for for an electric autonomous service if we ever get to that point. Part of the idea is that they would deploy a fleet of vehicles that would meet the general needs of

the average day. So uh for New York City, for example, most cab rides require are are for one or two

people and that's it. Um then you have a few that need you know, it's a larger party, like a family with luggage, And the idea being that the app itself would have it built in so that you could say I need a cab for two people, or I need to have a van for a group of six and the reason being is that that way the service can have just the size vehicles it needs for the region it needs, and the people who are using the app will have the experience that is still a positive experience,

as opposed to, well, you know what, we're gonna save some money, We're just gonna cram eight college students into the sedan. That's what I was thinking, is how did they guard against something like that? They do? They do summon a sedan, and then they decided to cram eight or ten people into that sedan, even though that it's

not even though it's not supposed to do that. I mean, would there be sensors that somehow indicate the number of people to come in, you know, come into the vehicle, or that you know, the weight of the vehicle has been exceeded or something. At least in that case, you can rest assured that the vehicle itself will still operate

as safely as possible. It's just the interior will not be so safe for the people already, right again it yeah, I wonder, I just wonder where this is going, Like, is it gonna be a vehicle that doesn't even have a steering wheel, doesn't even have controls. Is it gonna be something where the driver's area is still there but but blocked off somehow, you know, like a cage around, or could it even be where the driver's area is open for seating. It's just there're no there are no

accessible controls, right there, Zero controls like that. It wasn't that the Google cars like that? Right? Yeah? The little prototype car where you look, you've got like a button that you press. Essentially, you push a button that says go now, and it goes. I'm fully in favor of that. I love that idea. One of the reasons why we why I think that Uber's plan is more realistic version of the future of autonomous cars then say I'm going to have my own autonomous car is one of price.

And we were talking about this before we started recording. Uh. The The commonly quoted figure is that autonomous technology will add about a hundred fifty thousand dollars to the price tag of any vehicle. So take a vehicle, any vehicle, and then say, all right, convert that so it's an autonomous vehicle. You add a hundred fifty dollars to the price tag of that. That puts most cars well out

of the range of most people's budgets. Cars are expensive to begin with, right, And we were trying to find a good example of this, Yes, And the example that I came up with was the car that is probably the closest to a self driving vehicle that's on the road right now, Yeah, that that consumers can purchase exactly right, there's a Mercedes Benz S five hundred that has a system called intelligent Drive and intelligent drive and if we

haven't already mentioned this on this podcast before, it's basically a self driving vehicle, but they can't legally call it that. It's still you still have to have a driver in the driver position. Driver doesn't have to do anything programming the coordinates, and the car goes. I've watched videos of it in action and it's flawless and the way it works. Um. But the cost of a a s An S five hundred with intelligent drive is about two hundred and eighty

six thousand dollars. That's a that's a that's a lot of chedder. Yeah, that is a lot of shudder, that's right. Um. And just to try to compare that, we were looking for a version of that car that doesn't have the intelligent drive. And the closest we could get was another S series vehicle and instead of the five hundreds of five fifty, but the M S R P on that vehicle is only dollars now, so nearly two dollars less.

Nearly yes, And so that shows you just how much technology is packed into that S S five hundred with intelligent drive. And again this is a car where everything is really streamlined. I mean it's it's mostly tucked away. You still you do see a few uh controls and you see if you, um, modules, I guess you wouldn't find on a normal S five hundred that that have, you know, the the electronic I type stuff. I guess it's for lack of better term, but um, it's really

well tucked away. It's well designed. It's it's it's not you know, the big boxes on the hanging off the front fenders like you know, the old style stuff that we've seen. Right, people aren't going to look at this vehicle and say, hey, what's that for necessarily unless they're really paying close attention. And if you didn't know this car intelligent drive, and unless it has a badge on it that says intelligent drive. You wouldn't even know that it was one of these vehicles, you know, versus a

regular S five hundred. So the conclude SHO I come to with this is that these cars are likely not going to be something that that the average person is going to be able to afford any time in the near future, even even assuming that car manufacturers build what are fully autonomous vehicles and put them out on the market, because we're getting you know, this car, like you say, is about the closest that we have to that, and

it's it's pretty much capable of doing it. Yeah. I mean, there's other manufacturers that are toying around this too, but but Mercedes Benz is one that's been out there in the forefront, and so is UM well BMW and Audie and of course Tessa is working on something. Nissan is testing a leaf for autonomous vehicle, for autonomous drive. Um. It seems like all manufacturers have something in the works,

but it's always ten years out. It's always gonna be ten years away, and and I just really wonder when they're gonna finally say this is an autonomous vehicle. You don't have to have a driver in the driver position. You could you could have everybody in the back seat if you wanted and go to church or go wherever you're gonna go. Yeah, I think it's I think it's

a combination of the cost. That's a big one where they're trying to figure out, well, how can we get this down to a cost where it's worth it for us to even build the thing, because if we if we build, you know, a thousand of these, and we're only able to sell ten, there's no point in doing it. Then there's also policy, you know, making sure that it's actually legal in in the places where you sell the vehicle for someone to be able to ride in that

vehicle without being in control of the car. I think that's the big one. That's that's a big one. It's why I think the price and the legality are the two biggest obstacles. It's not the technology. The technology is

pretty much there, and technology is definitely there. I think the highest hurdle right now is is the legal issues, uh, you know, the regulations that don't allow for something like that, right, and so assuming that we get to a point where the regulations are no longer an issue, the price then becomes the chief obstacle. And I think that as processes continue to improve, you know, we see prices come down when we start streamlining those manufacturing processes and things like that,

and the technology continues to evolve. But even so, a hundred fifty is a huge amount of money, so so reducing that I don't think we're ever going to get it where that ends up being a five thousand dollar price hike on a car. And I don't think so either. But and in our our case is extreme. That's a Mercedes Ben's S class. That's a that's a big luxury such sure, I mean that that's already a luxury vehicle. It's it's going to be expensive no matter what it

really is. But and and the price to upgrade to that type of system is always going to be more than it would be. Let's say, if they if they did build a Nissan Leaf that has a system like this, um, it's just going to be that much more. It's a you know, within scale. I guess it's going to be balanced, I would hope. So, I mean, it's still is going to be a very expensive vehicle compared to one that would not have the autonomous controls, which is why I

think the Uber approach. This idea of having a fleet of autonomous vehicles is more realistic a fleet operated by a service. I think that's more realistic than and personal vehicles that are autonomously controlled, at least in the near future. So I think, say, let's say it's five years into the future, and we've we've ironed out the legal issues, we've ironed out the the technology, so everything on that

side is fine. I think the price is still going to be prohibitive for the majority of car perspective car owners, but for services like Uber, it makes perfect sense. You go out and you buy a whole bunch of these, and sure they're expensive, and before you weren't necessarily we're worrying about maintaining a fleet of cars because your drivers

did that for you. But now you don't have drivers to pay, so right now, Uber takes between of every fair so that's their commission, which means that seventy two percent goes to the driver and it varies depending upon the market. Uh, well, you cut out the driver. You don't pay robots, Scott, I don't know if you know this. Yeah, robots robots are are. I mean, you know, they're expensive to buy, but they work for free since sophisticated that root. Yeah,

I guess. So if you have a robot that doesn't do much other than maybe walk a few feet before falling over, it may not be as expensive as one that can drive a vehicle. But the point being that, you know, even though the the initial cost is high, uh, and you do have to worry about maintaining the vehicle. Obviously you don't pay so all of that money instead of instead of taking affairs, goes to the company. Yeah,

and and maintenance. But you you figure, well, if if on the paper on paper, if it makes sense, then let's make this change because now we don't have to worry about drivers. Also, I mean, there are a ton of issues that I've talked about about how Uber drivers have had. There's been some terrible incidents with Uber drivers and passengers. You don't have to worry about that with a robot like that. Yeah. So there there's that as well. So there's a very attractive case to be made for

a service like Uber to make the switch. And I think that for autonomous cars to become a reality where we can jump into one on any given day, at least in the near future, it's going to be through something like if it's not Uber, it's going to be something very similar to Uber. And it's not likely to be a world where I go out to the dealership and I buy an autonomous car. I mean, I hope to make enough money where that could be a reality for me. But I'm not being honestly in you know,

as they always say ten years, you never know. I mean, you really never know what's gonna be out there and what's what's the what what the price point is going to be on it, because they may bring it down. I know, the cars are continually getting more and more expensive. And then to add that autonomous feature onto it, as we said, it's going to add quite a bit of money.

But if that's a feature that you have to have in a vehicle or you really want to have in a vehicle, it's a it's probably more of a want thing if you're buying a car. UM I think that I think plenty of people will buy a car that's autonomous from a dealership. I mean individuals, not just fleet managers that are you looking to save money on delivery vehicles or something that can make um you know, instead of delivering people, they're delivering products, right, Um, yeah, like

like Amazon or ups or fed X or whatever. Yeah, imagine having an automated FedEx truck drive up to your house and and somehow get that package to your door. I guess maybe you'd have to come out and get it yourself, and would be an awful system. Yeah there my catapult, I mean exactly, or or or you know, just it's a truck that's just carrying drones. Oh that's the drones fly out the back and drop the package off and then drive back in and the drones make

last thirty feet is what you're saying. That's a good idea, Yeah, because then you just end up having to you know, like I said, if you have the charging stations inside the vehicle, then the drones are constantly recharging their batteries. They don't have to worry about running down after one trip. Not bad, I mean, you know, I'm just saying, if you want to use that idea, I can be paid. All right. So well, well, let me let me paint for you what I what I think would be Scott's

dystopian future, the Nightmarish future. So let's say that you know, one of the arguments I've seen about about the uber electric autonomous fleet UH. In support of it is that it would negate the need to own a car in dense urban environments. So UH. In in New York City, for example, the average of the number of people who own vehicles is well below that of the national average. National average, I think it's somewhere in the range of of households own a car. In Manhattan it's at it's lowest.

It's somewhere like around or so. Parking is at a premium. UH. And you know, there are other alternatives to getting around. And if if most of your travel is within you know, just a few miles of where you live, then you can take cabs, the subway, or walk to a lot of your desk nations, you don't need a car. UH. There the other boroughs in New York the numbers are higher, I think, like in Brooklyn it's slightly higher. And then by the time you get to Long Island and it's

it's closer to the national average. It's still below it, but it's closer. UM. So let's say we go into a future where, at least for dense and urban environments, the need to own a car is completely removed because you've got this fleet of electric vehicles will come and pick you up on demand. You don't have to worry

about where you're going. You know, the fact that you own a piece of property that is incredibly expensive and nine of the time is sitting idle, would mean that you would be able to use that space, that and that money for something else, assuming of course, that the cost you would incur taking these trips from this service would be less than what it would be to own

and maintain a vehicle. And if you want to go outside of the city, you would rent the vehicle for the day, or for the week, or however long you need it, right right, So, so let to say that we are on in this future where you no longer need to own a car because of the reasons I've said, and because it's been demonstrated that that autonomous vehicles are safer, is now illegal for humans to operate a car. What do you think of that, fat, I do not like that that. I mean taking that out of the hands

of individuals. I mean, to be able to drive, they have the freedom to drive a vehicle. Yeah, oh man, that's that's an awful thought. Jan Yeah, it's it's coming Scott. That day is con be illegal to drive. I'd say within fifteen years. Fifteen years it will be illegal for a human operator car because the the can't believe what I'm hearing, the demonstration of how you know the fact that that there will be a dramatic reduction in UH accidents.

There will be that. Thus, there will be this whole change in the insurance landscape, there will be a big change in the medical escape. It will cost less money for across multiple industries to have this in place, that the idea of a person operating a vehicle would be such a huge monetary cost, let alone the ability or the the potential for an accident to happen. It will be illegal for a human being top right a car. I really can't believe that here in fifteen years. I

think is being really super aggressive with that prediction. But it is going to happen. I don't think that there are enough people that would give up that freedom, you know, that would say, well, you know, you say that, but you may get legal and then suddenly, I mean granted that there are votes held on it. I'm sure there will be a lot of resistance, but it will become more and more difficult to hold out against that, and keep in mind we also have a generation behind us

Scott of people who don't want to own cars. Okay, there's a boy, Where do I start with this one? I don't think that's true either. I really don't think that. You don't think that. The only thing that there's a generation of millennials who are uh not as interested in owning a vehicle because of the costs and and other things things associated with it. I'm not buying that. I don't. I don't really get the I don't think the numbers

are what they say they are. I think that I think there are more kids that still want that freedom, still want to be able to go out and you know, go somewhere on their own. I don't think that the cell phone or the uh, you know, the smartphones has completely replaced the automobile, because that's what the argument is, right, is that you know, if I can you know, Instagram or snapchat with my friends all day, I don't really need to drive over their house anymore. I don't. I

don't think that's really the case. I think people still will want to interact with each other and still but in the future where you have your smartphone and that's what brings the car to you, and then you're the car goes away and you don't have to worry about it again. I'm not gonna win this name. That's the smartphone,

still the king, just saying welcome to my future. This has a bit of a feel of almost like not got you journalism, but like I set up like it's a trap, grinning like a chess air cat when I walked in there, so I knew that something was but I didn't. You're gonna me with Cars will be illegal in years car ownership and will not not even car ownership, but car operation will be illegal in fifteen years. Cars

themselves will still be perfectly legal. They just have to be operated by a machine the government, well by by giant corporations, which is one step away from the government. Commentary over from Jonathan Strickland. But we're not I was

mostly winding you up, Scott. We're mostly winding up. But I will say that there are a lot of people who actually argue that this is in fact the way things are going to move, because again, it will get harder and harder to make the argument against this movement simply from a numbers perspective, if you're able to say, like, well, look at the number of deaths that occurred due to automobile accidents and see how far they've dropped since autonomous

cars have become um, you know, increasingly popular, and ultimately that may drive legislation. I think that in the United States it really will take longer than fifteen years for this to happen now, probably because we have such a car culture here. It's not gonna happen. It is going to happen. So but but I'll tell you what I'll put it. I'll put it off far enough where you won't have to worry about it, right, Like it's like seventy years from now. Well that way, see, I'm in

case there's some incredible like life prolonging technologies. I want you to be comfortable. So I'm glad you didn't say like that. I'll put it off into like seventeen years you want to, I don't want to tell you, but I've got planned for you in sixteen years, you know, we'll tell you what. Who's you know who's really mad about Uber to begin with is his cab drivers. And just wait until you start taking people out of those Uber vehicles and yeah, that's going to make them just

over the top angry. Well, and I actually I did an episode of forward thinking about robo taxis, and at the end of it I asked the question. I said, maybe we should actually have some compassion and think ahead of time, say all right, well, if this is in fact inevitable, if if this is the future we are headed to, and it seems like that's a fair bet now, But of course you can never say that for sure. Right, That's the thing about the future. It's unpredictable when you

get down to it. But assuming that that is in fact the path we are headed down, and that is the destination we will arrive at, maybe behooves us to go ahead and have the conversation of what what sort of opportunities do we look at? How do we where do we look to transition the people who are taking on driving as a profession, and what other things could we look at as because as making an alternative to

them so that they can still make a living. And the biggest answers I got were why are we worried about that? Why are we worried about these people? And I said, well, because I have compassion and I worry about people who would be impact and they said, well, you know, we've never really worried about that in the past. Like when the loom was invented. You didn't see a huge outcry of what are we what are all these

poor weavers going to do? And I thought, no, we had revolutions instead and riots, and that what I'm saying is that perhaps maybe some forward thinking about what these folks should be doing in lieu of professional driving could be preferable to having riots in the streets. You know, there have actually been violent riots in response to Uber, specifically in Paris. How certainly, yeah, people get people are just outright, well, cab drivers are outraged, and companies are outraged.

And to some degree of success, uh, they have they have kept Uber out of certain cities, certain regions. Spain and Thailand have banned Uber. China in Portland, Oregon sued Uber for coming into Portland. I got a lot of thoughts about Portland save that for Portlandia episode Nevada. I think, um, what's another one? New Mexico? Maybe is that right? I'm not sure about other states, but I do know that, uh what an Anchorage, Alaska Uber pulled out of anchorage.

They had gone in and then after hitting a lot of resistance, decided that it wasn't worth the while of fighting that fight and left. And Uh, I feel like every week there's another city or another region that says we're we're outlawing it in this area. Can't you're not allowed to pick up at the airport, You're not allowed to you know, deliver guests to this this hotel region inside of this convention region. I guess where the center is.

And there's been a lot of of of battles back and forth on that, and some of them just end up eventually resulting in regulations being passed that that put Uber under essentially the same restrictions and and um responsibilities as like a taxi service, so drivers would have to go and get a permit from issued by the state, that kind of stuff. Where where it ends up making

it a more level playing ground between Uber and existing services. Now, there's some people who argue that's the wrong way of looking at it, that the taxi regulations are based out an old and now outdated mode of thinking, and that this Uber approach is really the way we should be moving forward. It is pretty antiquated with especially the medallion system. And that's something that I know that's a thorn in

a lot of people's side. Yeah, I heard that. I think in two thousand thirteen, a medallion in New York costs one and a half million dollars something like that. I might be off numbers as of today, Okay, I looked at these today. I went to a site called New York City cab dot com and that's where they buy, sell, and lease medallions. And you can go there right now and check out what you know, what the going rate

is right now. But today the lowest price for a single medallion as of this morning was seven hundred and thirty thousand dollars for the lowest price one that I saw, at least on the top, you know, the front page. I think there were several pages. But after you get past the first page, he gets into like a lot of leasing situations. So um, around eight hundred to eight hundred twenty thousand dollars was more typical. So I saw

several for that individual medallions. And then a lot of places are a lot of people were selling sets of two, so probably cab companies that have gone under, you know company meaning two or four vehicles maybe, but they're still in two at a time. The highest prices software set it too, was one point seven million dollars a little bit over that, and uh, I think the there were lots of sets for two of two. Rather they were

going for about one point six million dollars. So it's expensive and medallions are essentially that's the authorization of operating a vehicle as a cab, and that's gone way way up. Because the another site that I went to, and I can't remember where this came from, but I quickly scribbled down these notes because I found it pretty fascinating that, you know, it wasn't that long ago. You know, they weren't a million dollars always. You know, they've become more

and more valuable. So good for the people that are holding onto these medallions because they could sell them at that price. Those that bought them early on, they made quite a bit of money because um, in mid just in mid two thousand eleven, it was less than three

quarters of that price, so that's reasonable. In two thousand eight it was almost half the price, and we're talking about the million dollar price, so um, you know, in two thousand eight it was about five hundred thousand in two thousand four, or was about a third of the price of about three hundred thousand, and if you had gone all the way back to eight to buy one, it's about one thousand dollars one thousand, and right now

you could sell it for eight hundred thousand dollars. I think when they first started selling medallion's way back when it first started, it was ten bucks ten dollars, but then it was also ten bucks in like nineteen thirties or some money, I guess. But there's but there's only a certain number of medallions available, and that's the thing. It's a limited commodity. So there's what thirteen thousand I

think that somewhere somewhere in the five hundred neighborhood. And not all of those get sold every year, Only a very small number exchange hands every year. But every year it goes up, up, up, and it gets to this astronomical level of where, you know, to buy two of them, now you're gonna pay a million six And see, that's a that's a that's a world. That's you can understand why there's this incredible reaction to Uber because that's the world that's been you know, really ensconced and and and

and almost like a fortress has been built around that business. Well, if they're allowed to come in, that means that those tokens are essentially worthless. Yeah, yeah, and there are worth nothing to them at that point, and that that would be so frustrating to see that come in and happen. I understand that, I completely get it, but you do have to kind of look at the way things are going I mean, this is like you I feel, this

is the way that things are going to change. It's going to it's going to uh, it's going to have to happen this really Yeah. So that's why I keep asking, like, well, what we need to think about these things ahead of time so that we can at least make the transition as smooth as possible. If it's going to happen, then let's not you know, put as much energy into fighting

it or delaying it. Let's put that energy into, well, what are some practical ways that we can make sure the people who are going to be negatively impacted by this are able to find other means of making a living and less worry about you know, let's put that off until next year, because we're still gonna have to deal with it. Let's just let's let's put the energy to dealing with it now, coming up with some answers so that when this inevitable transition happens, it isn't like

an incredibly disruptive, painful time. Well, you know, if your game is driving, that's your thing, that's your career, that's your your chosen path. Uh, it's not like everything is gonna switch overnight either. So you're gonna be able to move to something else that you know, it may be more or less profitable than what you're doing now, but you're still gonna be able to do what you've been trained to do or what you have done for the

last twenty years or whatever. Find a different way to use that skill in some other form, in another in another industry. Maybe you're maybe you're you know, I hate to even say like alternatives to it, but um, let's say that you're, you know, running documents across town all day, you know, for a law firm. Um, but you're making money driving again, or you're working for a hospital delivering

you know, needed medical supplies or something like that. Fine, find other alternative routes to uh, you know, to to explore with this, and I don't think you know, the camp rivers need to be afraid that they're going to be completely shut out, you know, overnight. No, it's not gonna happen. Now. That's why I say, like it's it's good to think of it ahead of time, so that way, as the transition happens, you have a plan in place, as opposed to that inevitable day comes where you get

your pink slip because the robots are taking over. Right. So I mean, then, by the way, when when I talk about this, it's not just with drivers. I mean there's so many jobs that are going to be replaced through automation. And we're already seeing that. I mean, we've seen that in lots of industries already. It's a story that's happened over and over again. It will eventually hit pretty much every job that's out there. And when the robo podcast start, I guess I'll subscribe and I'll just

weep little tears. You think it will happen someday, I don't know. Maybe. I mean if we ever, if we ever can create an artificial intelligence that can actually innovate as in come up with interesting things to say and not just parrot them and repeat them. I'm out of

a job all day. You know, I'm all for a robot running the Car Stuff podcast, as long as does it stumble around as much as I do, because I tend to wander off on you know, um just stories they go nowhere, Like I got a story to tell you, but there's going to be a fifteen parter to lead into the story bar on that issue. Yeah, I'm all. I'm all about that myself for for all of the podcasts I do. Scott, thank you for coming on here

and giving your perspective on these things. That was a lot of fun to to chat with you about this because obviously we come from this from two very different points of view, right. I mean I don't drive, um, and clearly you hate cars. Yeah, that's it. I despice cars. I have. I I hissedet them vampires style and whenever I see one. No, I don't hate cars, but I

certainly don't like driving. So um, in my world, the idea of an electric vehicle that can autonomously take me from point A to point B as quickly and efficiently as possible, and I don't have to worry about it, you know, doing the crossword while trying to drive, which, by the way, I have been in a cab where the cab driver was filling out a crossword puzzle while navigating the streets of New York. Yeah, I would never have to worry about that. I want that world to happen.

But then I'm not Also, I'm also a person who and I'm in the minority in the United States, I would argue person who does not find any joy in driving. So for me, this is precisely what I would want.

You know what, I totally understand that I know that there are people that that can't drive that would also appreciate this sure and that in fact, I talked about that a little bit in the first part of this podcast, where one of the big complaints about uber right now is that people with disabilities say that it's not nearly accessible enough for those people and that that's something that

needs to change. And if that did change, it would be I mean, the amount of independence that gives somebody is it's difficult to explain to someone who has taken it for granted. And not only disability, You've got to think about aging as well. People that you know, are simply get to a point where they're unable to, you know, maintain their own license. You know, vision or hearing or whatever happens to be. It's usually vision or um, you know,

physical ability. And this would extend the time that they're they have a bit of freedom to move around the city. And that's that is very I mean, it's it's it's incredibly important. We have an increasingly large aging population in the United States where giving that amount of independence and extending the independence to someone, I mean, it's difficult to

put into words how important that is. And you know how I mean, just one other level to that whole thing is that you know, when you get older like that and you're not you're not quite as as I guess you're a little more frail than you where when you're younger. Um, there's also the safety concern into a cab. You know what's going to happen. You know, you're you

don't know who this person is this picking you up. Yeah, I would think that a lot of senior citizens that are beyond driving age would feel comfortable getting into a vehicle that doesn't have anybody in there. It's it's very secure it's very safe. You can lock the doors and you know the rest of the world's out there. It takes you right to the shopping mall or wherever you're going, brings you back home. It's it's pretty safe for it for you. Really. Yeah, yeah, I definitely see lots of

positives about this. I mean, you know, you can't ignore the the concerns obviously, but uh, seeing as this is the way we both feel we're inevitably going to head, I think there are worse futures that we could realize. As much as I like to resist the idea, UM, I do think it's coming. Yeah. I look forward to, uh to revisiting this topic in fifteen years to get your your tirade on the day when they outlaw human drivers.

Why did we ever put them in office? Uh, well, that'll that they will will We'll have to wait over that day. In the meantime, if you want to check out Scott's podcasts, and I highly recommend you do, I think you need to go over and check out cars stuff. You and Ben cover all sorts of topics. Uh and uh, they're always incredibly informative and entertaining. Thank you appreciate that's a the wonderful compliment, and we try to not make it so dry all the time. We can get a

little history in there, some fun stuff too. It's not just uh, you know, nuts and bolts type stuff. I still I mean, like I listened to it. I'm one of my favorite ones. I loved them. The coast to coast racing. Oh yes, the fastest trip across the United States. Right yeah, I think it might have been that one

ye Canniball run Gumball rally. Whenever we start talking about that kind of stuff, I'm like, oh, because even though I don't drive, I love those that idea, Like like, all right, well let's let's let's break a few laws. Maybe you're not as much of a hater as I thought too. I am not as much of a hater. Just I've got I got the hate filled up to the threshold. Bits month speaking over the top. Good to know,

and thanks for having me on your show. By the way, well thank you for for for jumping on at the last minute. I really appreciate it. Always fun. All right, guys, if you have any suggestions for future topics of tech stuff, why don't you just send me an email that addresses tech Stuff at how stuff works dot com or drop

me a line on Twitter or Facebook. I am tech Stuff hs W both of those, and I'll talk to you again really soon for more on this and batons and other topics, because it has stuff works dot com