Three Approaches to AI Policy

time and we're recording two episodes back to back. But if you haven't heard our previous discussion, which is kind of a high level discussion about AI and the potential dangers and sort of the the various messaging we've received about AI and the warning signs and the promises, you should listen to that episode first. If you haven't subscribed to Sleepwalkers, you should absolutely do that too, because the

show is amazing. And today we're gonna talk a little bit more about how different parts of the world are treating AI, whether it's from a government perfective or a business perspective, The technological you know, development of AI, where is that actually happening the fastest, And the answer to that might surprise you if you haven't been paying close attention to news around the world and we're going to

dive into all of that. So, without any further Ado, welcome back to the show, Os and Kara, Thank you so much. Jonathan, Hi Jonathan again. Hi again. Yea. And while we were between shows, we were just you know, talking about Lady Gaga and Shakespeare as you are want to do. Uh, this is kind of what we technologists technology podcasters tend to to really, you know, kind of revel in when we're not on on Mike or at

least not recording. But I wanted to talk first about where do we see really aggressive you know, moving forward on on technology and AI, Like, where are we seeing the most development in AI? Because a lot of people think of Silicon Valley as sort of the place like it's it's the breeding ground for all technologies. But as it turns out, that's that's really a very narrow view, and it it's ignoring a giant superpower that is pouring

a lot of resources into AI development. Right China. Yeah, sorry, that China is is um is leading the charge on AI.

And one of the guests we had on the show on Sleepwalkers is a guy called Kaifu Lee who was part of the team at Apple that developed the technology behind SyRI in the nineties, went on to run Google China and is now one of the biggest technology investors in China through a fund called Signivation Ventures, which is about all sorts of different technology ventures in China, including several unicorns a billion dollar companies, one of which is

called meg v which does facial recognition technology. Kai Fu Lee recently wrote a book called AI Superpowers, China, Silicon Valley and the New World Order. New World Order is quite a resonant phrase, shall we say, But the thesis of the book is simply that China are doing AI a lot better, a lot more aggressively, and with a lot more promise than we are in the US. And

that's for two reasons. Number one, China, unlike the US, is a centralized country, a centralized government who have said absolutely, with no hesitation, AI is our biggest priority. In seventeen, the Communist Party released what they called the New Generation Artificial Intelligence Development Plan, and the first paragraph read AI has become a new focus of international competition. AI is

a strategic technology that will lead the future. The was major developed countries are taking the development of AI as a major strategy to enhance national competitiveness and protect national security. So China have been on this for two years, I mean for longer than two years, but they're taking immensity seriously and we're not. We did have our own presidential executive order in April of this year, but it didn't

come with any funding a kaifu. Second point, which I'm sure we'll get onto, is that the China also have a much richer data set, which is the power behind the throne of AI. Yeah, something that I think a lot of Americans in particular aren't aware of is that when you look over at China and China's efforts to to own AI essentially, I mean there there's they're saying, we are going to be established as the the primary source of AI development by twenty thirty and they're they're

well on their way to doing that already. Um. You look at the the B A T that's the three big companies that collectively are valued at more than a trillion dollars, bay Do, Ali, Baba and ten Cent, and those are already enormous corporations that have deep ties to the state government of China than that are working very

hard in AI. But beyond that, even though you know, you might think, well, those are maybe three big companies, but how is that that that big of a of a of a you know, a force on its own. They also invest heavily in lots of startup companies, including unicorns. Uh. They in fact, they out of the six hundred billion dollars of unicorns out of China from a couple of years ago, they made up fifty percent of the investment

into those companies. Then beyond that, they're investing in companies outside of China and in other parts of the world, including the United States. Uh. Ten Cent, for example, has been investing heavily in video games over in the West Coast, I'm along with lots of other different companies out there. So not only are you talking about a country that has an enormous population and therefore an enormous source of information on its own, it has spread out around the globe,

so it's gathering information from everywhere. So it's it's really this incredibly pervasive system to gather the fuel that is going to power artificial intelligence. Uh. And meanwhile, you also have very smart people running very sophisticated laboratories working on the next generation of of algorithms and applications of AI. So you've got like the perfect storm over there. Yeah. Absolutely.

And I also think, I mean, just in terms of what you're talking about, you know, Tencent being involved in Fortnite if I'm correct, Yes, yeah, I was just doing was doing the floss right over here. Actually, that's right. And also the ownership of a little known dating app called grinder Um, which the US is actually trying to get back just because of the national security threat that is involved in the Chinese owning uh so much user

data from United States citizens, including U S military personnel. Um. I think I think what's alarming about this is that we is that we're sort of entering into this new territory of you know, war and competition and war being less about you know, guns and bombs and more. And this is not these are not my words I've read this, but more about you know, bits and bites, so to speak. I think you read that from Secret Ar State Mike Pompeo.

That's right, I'm quoting Mike Pompeio. Happily, I think, um, which actually he said in regards to Huawei, which is obviously in the news quite a bit recently. Um, you know. I think that the there's there's the technology race, which is, you know, sort of who's going to have who's going to advance quickly and in the best way. But it's also about sort of who owns data and who has access to what data. I think the China, the Chinese government does not really have a problem uh spying on

its citizens. I don't even think we'd call it spying necessarily. I think it's sweeping, um is what is what they tend to do, and um with that data can make some pretty uh you know, chilling accusations about people who they think are dissenting against the government. Um. You know, in the United States, we are very free with the data we give away because I don't think enough people think about how much data they're giving away in any

given day. But the US government hopefully will remain so is not as what's the word pervasive, pervasive and aggressive about collecting said data and using it to um, you know, in prison there citizens. So I don't know, I think China can kind of get away with more and maybe that's why the Chinese government is allowing Chinese businesses to

get away with more than the US government. Ill saying it's worth pointing out in the US, you know, we have this phenomenous surveillance capitalism, So there's a bunch of big firms who take all the data we give them, use it to model us, make predictions about us, and sell us more stuff. In China, it's surveillance statecraft, and the data is not siloed between Amazon, Google, face Book

and others. UM. It's tends to be in the hands of the big technology companies in China, you know who, given that they're not fully state owned, but much more hand in pocket with the government than our technology companies are share their collected data much more widely, which allows them to make better predictions about what might happen and

be determinative about the outcome of their citizens. I do think it's worth pointing out a lot of this conversation about the difference between AI in China and the United States that we have on this side of the Pacific um is filtered through our liberal individual worldview, which states that you know, free will, the ability to control one's own outcomes, um, the you know, the the recognition of oneself as an individual are the utmost goods, and that

worldview simply isn't shared throughout most of China. Now you can say that's that will change, you know, society opens up. You can say there's an inevitable progress, if you want to call it, program us towards our worldview. But the

fact is that isn't the world view in China. And many Chinese citizens are used to living in one on one party states since um, since mal z Dong or where it was in the nineteen forties, and so there's a there's a there's a there's a sense of being accustomed to the belief that harmony and the furthering of the state's goals rise um rising is a rising tide which raises all boats. And so you know, I think we have this desire to see and of course it

has happened in China. There's been Channeman's Square, you know. There there there have been organic protest movements. But we do have the desire to impose our absolute belief in the importance of the individual and free will on the rest of the world. And you know, I'm not sure that if you ask the average Chinese citizen, you know, do you resent being surveiled when the most highest number of people have been lifted out of poverty in the

fastest time of any country tree in history. I think the answer might be, you know, perhaps we prefer more freedoms, but this isn't the worst thing in the world. Also,

China is an ethnically largely ethnically homogeneous society. So for that, for the average Han Chinese, that the trade off for this, this lifting out of poverty and the national pride which is which is absolutely on the rise in China, giving a much stronger sense of national identity, I would argue than we have here, the tradeoff may be worth it.

What's very chilling, Beyond chilling is the treatment of the non Han Chinese in China, the tibet the Tibetans, and specifically the Weakers, who are really the people who experienced the hard end of this surveillance state in China. Hey, guys, it's Jonathan from the future. I'm just popping into interrupt here because as it turned out, we got so into this conversation I totally forgot to put in a break. So let's take a quick break even while Jonathan in

the past and ours and Kara continue their conversation. We'll get back to that in just a second, Hey, guys, Jonathan from the future. Again, we're going to get right back into the episode. Oz was just talking about China and it's use of technology and the creation of a surveillance state, and we're gonna pick up with my response. Yeah, and as we mentioned in the last episode, you know, we were talking about about bias and how that can be unintentionally inserted into a system and how that can

cause harm. But you could also intentionally create a biased system specifically in order to keep tabs on particular populations that that are, you know, minorities, and yeah, the and obviously that could lead to truly horrific inhumane practices, leading all the way up to even genocide. Yes, I mean, right now what we're seeing is sort of um imprisonment in re education camps. But I think it's important to note and this is again, you know, piggybacking off of

what Oz was saying. You know, the Chinese Communist Party has often used surveillance as a means for control. The differences is that artificial intelligence enables a kind of surveillance that we haven't seen before, which is, you know, in China, there is basically a very large operation that they call Egypt,

which is the Integrated Joint up Integrated Joint Operations. And what that does is it's a database that is sweeping information from you know, basically every source imaginable WiFi, you know, visitor management system so you know, for example, in America, what we call you know, when you walk into a

building and register your name to visit an office. You know, um, wecha um we chat conversations, you know, uh, when you leave the country, when you come back in the country, all of these things are being swept into um a larger I don't I don't know what the word is for it. It's not server, I don't know how to say it. It's a system. It's a system. It's a system that it's then making decisions and predictions about who

is basically doing right and doing wrong. And we just simply don't have We don't have anything like that in the United States right now. I mean, certainly we can there there are companies that can use our information in the United States to make predictions about us, to sell us things, to basically set our insurance premiums. But as far as just an integrated system that is making decisions about its people and then also using it to imprison

its people. There's it's just unprecedented. And you know, the Human Rights Watch is basically calling it a humanitarian crisis, which I which I think it is when you think about you know, um, your own country basically spying on your conversations. Um, really, I mean obviously without your consent.

People are stopped all the time in China and their phones are taken and read through like that's a very that's a sort of normal day, um, and then using that information to put you in a re education camp. I mean, I think if most Americans knew that, which I don't think they do, um, they would be alarmed. But let's be clear. You know, we're we're very far from having a re education camps in the US, but we do, and it's not on a state level or

a national level. We do make decisions about people's outcomes with stuff like credit schools. I mean the credit schools. You know in China it's it's it's ethnically it's explicitly ethnic. Right. Well again in China they wouldn't say that, but effectively it's explicitly ethnic against the wagers. In the US, we have credit schools and guess what most people who grow up with a certain amount of privilege know what their credit school is, understand the principle of the credit school.

Get a credit card as early as they can, start building their credit, making monthly payoffs, and then when it comes time to get a mortgage and buy a house and move to a nice neighborhood, guess what, All the pieces are in place. But but for for many people who don't grow up with the privilege, that the credit school comes as a complete surprise at a certain point in life that you know, there's even notion of having

bad credit. All of a sudden, you know you've got bad credit without ever having realized that you had this credit school you're supposed to be working on. And guess what. You can't move out of your neighborhood, You can't get what you want, You can't buy your children and things

they need. So we do have this here. It's not state policy, but we've we've effectually outsourced this predictive technology about what people are going to do in the future to private corporations who who use it to profit from us rather than to control us. But we shouldn't beat we shouldn't beat China too hard with this stick when

we have certain analogous practices here in the US. Sure, I mean you could even I'm sure there are plenty of people who do argue that when we the practices of certain actual state level organizations in the United States, that we should be concerned about what sort of systems

they might be using. I'm thinking specifically of the n s A because it wasn't that long ago when we were having enormous headlines about the n s A and its practices of trying to have you know, essentially listening points just outside of major UH communications channels, whether it was Internet service providers or the telecommunications industry in general, and you start thinking, well, if you start applying these kind of AI surveillance UH programs, which is you know,

in essay, is all about trying to detect communications UH in that everyone gets lumped into and not just bad actors,

then you start getting those concerns. And you know, we we saw plenty of that even without the AI element when the n s A stories were breaking a couple of years ago, even just to the point where we were seeing people in the n s A behaving poorly, like using the information gathered to track down like old relationship, you know, like old boyfriends and girlfriends, not an ethical use of your power if you're if you're looking in

on communications. So we know that it doesn't have to be a an official state line policy for this to either be uh misused in an unauthorized way or put to use in a way that maybe it's not immoral, but you could at least argue it's a moral with a lot of the the business practices, because that's morality is not consideration when you're looking at how do we

make more revenue, how do we make a greater profit? Um, And and you know you're just you're essentially you're checking off boxes saying, right, here's how we can make this more efficient, have a lower cost to us, a greater

payoff off in the long run. And so we start to see how exactly as you were saying, Oz that that while you it is easy to point to another country and say these policies are clearly uh harmful to people and are therefore bad, we also need to make sure we're reflecting on the environment that we ourselves are in when we I'm sorry, go ahead, oh no, I was just gonna make one comment, you know, and for example, in the state of Arizona, if you applied for a

driver's license in the state of Arizona, your photo was then put into a database that was being used by that was being used for facial recognition, right, and that was without driver's consent. Basically, law enforcement came back and was like, whoa we you know, we think people know that this is going on. You know, that was their best answer. It wasn't like, oh, there was you know,

fine print that people didn't read. It was basically like, well, we thought people knew, and so you know, I we can't exonerate yeah, sort of our own our home turf, because there's certainly I don't even know if you would call this misuse. It just seems like exploitation um for gain for for basically gains of I think police departments that are seeing this technology, recognizing how powerful it is, but also realizing that it's something that needs to be

regulated and not knowing how or not really caring. And I think Jonathan, you used the great example of the n S a UM, which I think tie is very neatly to what we're talking about. Edward Snowden had a very haunting phrase which was turnkey tyranny to describe basically, once you build infrastructure for something, um, anything can happen.

And the technological infrastructure we have here in the US for surveillance and social control is I mean, we have few cameras, you know, there are more distinctions between companies, but effectively the infrastructure exists to do what's happening in China here. And that's very frightening because you know, as we know for Henry Ford's what wonderful pressure to build roads in the US. Guess what you build the roads, people are going to drive cars and not take the train.

So once this infrastructure exists, and you add to that, you know a leader who doesn't respect norms or wartime, all of a sudden the barriers that we think are so solid to protect that infrastructure being weaponized against us start to road very very quickly. And I think that that's the moment we're in right now. And that's another reason why he wants to call this podcast sleepwalkers, because

we don't insist on those norms and legal protections. Bit by bit, the infrastructure will have its own logic and one emergency after another. Remember the Patriot Act will allow this technology to be used against us in ways that we currently find sickening and horrifying and terrifying. In China, they could easily come home. Yeah. Yeah, it's a sobering point. And on that point, I think we're going to take a quick break so I can suck my thumb in

the corner. Okay, alright, Pruny thomicide. Now we've talked about some of the differences between say, China and the United States. One of the things I thought was interesting is the idea that in China you have you have sort of a very concrete strategy in place, right, a top down strategy, and it's it's pretty much all the companies that are working on this strategy are in alignment with it to some degree or another. Some are very much in step

with the state government. Others are to a lesser degree perhaps, but still you know, following along the strategy. Meanwhile, in the United States, it's much more of this competitive this this classic capitalist idea of competition in the space where you have all these different pockets that are all trying to own a I themselves competing against each other. So we're getting lots of interesting innovation, but not nearly at the same speed or scale as we're seeing in China.

Is that is that more or less a correct assumption or am I way off base here? No? I think that's completely fair. You know, this year, the government that President Trump did announce an executive order on AI in February, and so that was that was seen as a kind of related response to what China are doing. And that executive order that the President issued had four major components. Number one, to set AI as a national priority of the United States. Number two, interestingly, to get better at

data sharing between the government and private enterprise. Number three, it is the ethical guidelines on how AI is used in terms of surveillance and military and number four to make sure that the United States is doing the best it can to educate the next generation of engineers and AI scientists. Now, those are all good things, apart from maybe two number two, the data sharing um. But guess how much funding that executive order came with. I'm going

to guess that was a big old goose egg. Zero dollars, zero dollars. Whereas shen Zen, which is a province in China, is spending fifteen billion dollars this year. That's one of the many, many provinces in China spending not even federal money but state money on AI. So in that context you can say, oh, you know, we're getting up to speed, we're responding, but you know you've got to put your money where your mouth is and we're not doing that. Yeah.

And on a on a related note, you know, when we talk about things like the regulations, the laws in place, like how do we how do we then create policies that ensure that we're using AI responsibly and productively and not in ways that are harmful or destructive, um at least to our own set aisions if and hopefully not to anyone at all. We tend to see that lag behind,

just like we do with technology in general. We tend to see technology innovations far out distancing our ability to to incorporate that into our our legal you know, kind of massive infrastructure. Understandably so obviously that that system is going to move much more slowly than technological innovation, but it does create these pain points, whether it's uh, you know, like autonomous cars. You know, you have different states in the United States that will allow for some degree of

autonomous car testing. Meanwhile, you've got companies like Tesla that are rolling out vehicles that have autopilot feature, which, to the company's credit, they say, is not meant to be taken as an autonomous system. But tell that to all the people going down the highway who are leaning back in their cars with their hands off the wheel. Um, you could argue that that false of the responsibility of

the individuals. But if enough individuals are doing it, you've got to start asking what's the value of actually having the system in place? Um, we're seeing that as being a kind of a disparity as well. Right, We're seeing this this gap between what we're capable of and what we should be doing, or at least what you know, what are legal system says we should be doing. And meanwhile, in contrast to that, and and Kara, you mentioned the

EU a couple of times in our last podcast. Over in the European Union, you have committees dedicated to thinking about these sort of things and starting to propose potential UH strategies or even presenting different options for strategies for

dealing with AI. Even beyond these these cases that I'm talking about, like they're they're going to the point where I remember reporting on this a couple of years ago for Forward Thinking, a series I used to do where the EU was proposed a committee in the EU, or rather was proposing the idea of granting personhood two artificially intelligent systems, And on the face of it, that sounds absurd to a lot of people, the idea of granting a non human the concept of personhood, despite the fact

that in the United States we have corporations which are exactly that. But yeah, like, hey, hey, wait, we corporations can be people too, and uh can give money as long as they can give money to politicians, absolutely, so why can't robots. But the point that the EU committee was making was not that robots have feelings and we should really be considerate of them, but rather there needs to be some way to start to establish concepts like accountability.

In the case where some form of AI constructor or robot causes harm in the form of damages or injury, how do you are to determine who's at fault. We touched on this a little bit in the last episode, so to me, it's fascinating that those are discussions that are popping up, like very serious discussions in the EU. And Oz I think when we met briefly in New York a couple of weeks ago, we talked about the fact that this is an area of the world not

known for making incredible advances in AI technology. It's not like you look at Europe as saying this is where the hot bed for AI development is, but it is a region that's dedicating a lot of consideration to the implications of AI in day to day lives. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, the EU has been out in front on

thinking about technology and AI. Um Obviously, g d PR was a big act on regulating data and informing people about how people's data is being used passed in the EU, which triggered a whole series of conversations in the US about data regulation which will probably see they're starting now, we may see them come into law in the next

two or three or four years. So the EU, good old Europe, despite its stifling effects on innovation I think and on technological innovation, is an innovator in terms of regulation, which probably sounds like a contradiction in terms and this is an area that Karas looked into really closely and has some I think, very interesting insights about. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, as I was saying, to you earlier actually on the form I guess it was the former the

episode before this. Um, yeah, you know, I think it's interesting. The EUSE approach to me up very recently, you know, was to basically collect a group of fifty two experts and you know, create these seven core requirements for artificial intelligence. Now, I mean I can name them. You know. One is human agency and oversight. The other is technical robut us nous. The third is privacy and data governance. The fourth is transparency. The fifth is AI that AI systems should be sustainable,

um whatever that means. UM, AI systems should be auditable. As we were talking about with you know, black the black box problem, you know, AI should also be available to all. You know, this is what we talk about in terms of bias, gender bias, um, you know, racial bias, all of those things. But I don't I have a bit of an issue with it just in that it's it doesn't seem to have much action involved in it.

There aren't many action items. I think I think it is important, um for governments to to set standards you know, as a as a sort of first step, um, you know, and I think it also primes, you know, sort of average citizens to be aware of misuse, right, because when you set when you set up requirements, it means that these are things that can be misused and be misused easily.

And I will say, you know, whenever I go home, every time you go onto website on your phone, notifications saying are you willing to let this website put cookies? Are you willing to share your data? Are you willing to accept targeted ads? And that the net effect socially of that reminder that your data is valuable and you have a choice every single day fifty times that that

inevitably caused the shifting consciousness and the shifting citizenship. So I do think it's easy to say this regulation is toothless, but I also think it can, you know, make people think, oh, it's a huge culture. I mean when you just think, I mean, think about it. Think about cigarettes, right, I mean, it's just not you just don't smoke inside right anyway,

illegally you can't. But I'm saying, you know, just the shift in public perception about smoking, the shift in public respection, um perspective about sugar, for example, at least in the United States. You know, those were all things that at one point, we're not really discussed or talked about, and you know, everyone kind of smoke cigarettes and that's what people did and you know, then they got lung cancer.

But you know, I think the there is as long as there is a public discourse about privacy, people will begin to care more and more about privacy. So I think, you know, the EU presenting um these seven requirements is a step in the right direction. Absolutely, and if if anything, will just make people think about these seven tenants when they're going about their sort of everyday lives, and I think we'll we'll make companies, um, you know, focus on

building these requirements into whatever they are developing. You know, I think it's important for companies that are developing new technologies to think about bias, especially when the people who are developing the technologies might be quite homogeneous. So I think it's worth saying that, you know, we we tend to see the new world order in terms of America versus China. You know, not to wave the flag for Europe, which unfortunately my my country may longer no longer be

part of. But it's a it's a huge it's a huge group of nations with tremendous purchasing power, and it's genuinely significant market for US technology companies. And so you know, the effects of this may seem far off and slightly irrelevant, but you know, these finds that the EU is already slapping Facebook and Google with they're not necessarily materials to

business yet. But you know, Europe as a voice for regulation is an important one because you know, actually these new technologies, AI technologies, they tend to affect the poorest in society and the most vulnerable in society in the most negative ways. So algorithmic discrimination, the replacement of you know, of low education, shall we say, jobs like driving or packaging. You know, these are things that are being experienced at the hard edge by people who don't have much of

a voice in the political system. And so the fact that the EU is is taking up the mantle, even though it comes with hypocrisy, like using facial recognition at the ports of entry, even though you know that the level of the finds that can be applied to companies like Google and Facebook can never hurt their bottom line, I would say, is an important and valuable thing that

it's happening. And so you know, I think the EU can offer some point of reference for how we may think about regulating AI and technology in the US in the future. And I think that you know, you've heard futurists say we need to have some very serious conversations about AI and the ethics of AI and how we can make certain we're being responsible custodians of a I

and UH. To me, that was one of those things where it was like, we need to talk about talking about this, like that was the conversation for a very long time. We need to talk about talking about it. It's like having a meeting to talk about when you're gonna have your meeting. Have you ever worked in an office before? Oh? Yeah, no, I worked in I worked in a college administrative office before. So I've had meeting about how we can have fewer meetings and this is

not the way. Yeah. So, so having the EU actually take this step, even if you were to argue like this is a very early step and maybe there's not a lot of teeth to it yet, it is a step as opposed to what I've seen elsewhere where it's been talking about taking a step but not even doing that much. So I'm encouraged by it because it actually moves the conversation forward instead of us saying we need to have this conversation, the conversation has started. I don't

think it's over yet. I think that this is a good way to actually force more parties to get involved and think about it and maybe even start proactively thinking, how can I make certain that the thing we are building is actually being built in a responsible way that isn't going to that we can mitigate as many unintended consequences as possible, knowing that that is impossible to do uh entirely, but to really try for it. So to me, this is this is one of those conversations I could

have all day long. But I know you guys need to get going because there's going to be someone else who's going to have to use the studio you guys are in, So I'm going to I'm not going to have us go all day long on this. Plus, we're recording this on a holiday weekend, and I know everybody wants to get home, so we're gonna wrap it up. But I want to thank you guys so much for

agreeing to come onto my show. Uh it's a fascinating conversation, and you guys obviously have some great perspectives on this. And again to my listeners out there, if you haven't subscribed to Sleepwalkers, go check it out. It's a really well done show. I've been very impressed as someone who has a solo show. Most of the time I listened to it, I just think, wow, that's that's so awesome, that's so great. I wish I were on that show every now and then. So hint, hint, if you vernee me,

you just we love it. We would absolutely love it. Let's talk about that. We had a great time today. Thank you, Thank you guys, and you guys, if you want to get in touch with me, drop me a line, say hey, you need to talk about this other topic or those guys were great. Have them back on the show as soon as possible. Send me an email. It's tech Stuff at how stuff works dot com. Pop on over to the website that's tech Stuff podcast dot com.

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