TechStuff Classic: The Wonderful Wizard Named Woz

a co host of tech Stuff. Chris and I created tech Stuff back in two thousand and eight, and in two thousand thirteen he decided to step away from the show to focus on other things, and he definitely put his imprint on tech Stuff. Tech Stuff would not be the show it is without Chris Palette. This was the topic he decided he wanted to cover as his final episode. The wonderful wizard named was Steve Wasniak. I hope you guys enjoy the curtain sweeps down, the spotlight goes out

on our beloved Chris Palette. It is his final tech Stuff episode. This is not a joke. We may eventually be able to get him back on as a guest, but he's this is his his final episode as a host of tech Stuff. And uh, and he got to choose whatever topic he wanted. Unfortunately, almost all of them were ones we had already covered. Well. Actually, it surprised me that we didn't have a podcast on the person that we wanted to talk about today. Yeah. We we've

mentioned him in several podcasts. Yeah, but yeah, we definitely one of text more colorful characters, right, and that, of course is the wonderful wizard named was was, yes, Steve Stephen Gary Wazniak. Yeah, um, one of the co founders of Apple. And he was born in on August eleventh, nine and uh. He came from a family that was technologically inclined. His dad was an engineer at a little company called lockeed Martin. I feel like I've heard of that.

Yeah and uh and yeah he um. As a as a kid, he became very interested in engineering and electronics. Did you did you hear about what his favorite book series was that kind of inspired him? Actually it was the I looked at a lot of interviews. He's actually if you've never seen an interview with Wozniak, he's a very animated individual, well spoken, very passionate about what he does. It's clearly he truly enjoys technology like there's no irony there.

He just loves it. And though he doesn't necessarily love all the things that we do with technology or the way that companies handle technology, he's not He actually is not so not in such a big fan of big companies. But we'll get an to that. But no, as a kid, his favorite book series was the Tom Swift series. So Tom Swift, if you don't know, he's a young man who is a kind of an engineer who could build

just about anything in his own company. He would fight evil and and solve mysteries and things of that nature. And in fact, just as a tangent, Tom Swift plays a role in a in a totally different technology has nothing to do with Wozniak. Do you do you happen to know what Tom Swift? It's actually his. Tom Swift's name is lent in a way to this technology. Really. Yeah, it's Taser. Oh right, Taser stands Taser's technically an acronym.

It stands for Thomas A. Swift's electric rifle. You know, I think we mentioned that a long time ago when we talked about the Taser. Yeah, I think so. But yeah,

he in an interview. He credited the Tom Swift books as igniting his imagination at the idea of creating things electronics and being able to have kind of, you know, the equivalent of these adventures, and having a dad who was an engineer at Lockeed Martin didn't hurt because it turned out he had a really good person to go to when those science fairs came up in elementary school. Well yeah, yeah, and uh it certainly wouldn't have hurt his interest in technology to have a family that understood

and supported those interests too. They go, oh, you know, hey, this is something I like too, so you know, yeah, we should uh stop clowning around, he said foolishly. I was a a Tom Swift e nice, he's a he's a Yeah, he had a He credited his dad and some of his teachers in elementary school as really inspiring him. Essentially, he said that, uh, you know, when he started to excel at science, Uh, the teachers responded, and that just drove him to make even more accomplishments in that area.

So by the time he was in sixth grade, he actually built a fairly primitive but a working computer that could play Tic tac toe and you know, we all know from the documentary War Games that it's just a short hop, skip and a jump from Tic tac toe to thermonuclear war. Of course, you know, shall we play a game? Thanks Whopper? Hey nice you remembered the name and everything. Yeah, I've I've watched that documentary several times.

So the old cup modems where you actually had to put the phone and I'm sure actually it's probably remembers those days. Oh yeah, we'll get into that a little bit too. Well. I was has also got a bit of a mischievous streak in him. Um a bit, yeah, a bit of a mischievous streak. That was a bit

of an understatement. Yeah, well to it well. In sixth grade he also got his ham radio license, So obviously he was very much interested in electronics and technology and can indication all of these things would play a very large role in his choices further down the line. And according to laws, he said, he never took any courses on building electronics or computers. He just learned how to do that all on his own, at least at least in the elementary in high school years. Once you get

to college, he actually was pursuing originally Uh. When he when he first enrolled, he was pursuing a degree in electrical engineering and computer science at the University of California at Berkeley. Yeah, and that's that's sort of a lesson

for all of us. You know. Um, sometimes programming and fiddling with electronics and those kinds of things can seem really daunting, and it feels like, you know, you start dabbling in and it feels like you need a degree in computer science or electrical engineering to do these things. You don't. You just have to have an interest and get the right right place to start. And it also

helps to uh surround yourself within other fellow enthusiasts. Yeah, and it didn't hurt that was is categorically a genius in certain arenas, so that gave him a leg up as well. But tales details. Yeah, Well, while in while in the both in high school and in college, he began to associate with other people who are really interested in electronics and technology. Uh and uh he was part of a homebrew computer club. Yes, that would be v

homebrew computer club. Yeah. Back back in the mid seventies, um was was at the University of California at Berkeley. Um and uh, he was he was interested in attending this, uh, this nearby computer club, the Homebrew Computer Club, and uh there were actually quite a few people of note who

are part of this UM. But they were interested in before you get into the details of that kind of thing, this group was really kind of interested in what you could do with computers because, uh, in the mid nineties seventies, we weren't talking about uh, machines like the Apple too, where you had a monitor toing on top of a computer with a keyboard and you would program stuff. I mean, we were uh, they were interested in in the large part and things like the Altaire, which had no monitor.

You you would read, um, the the output of this device by the blinking lights or you know, in German dust princing light, as many a many many jokes have gone. But really, I mean, it wasn't It wasn't something that the average person would probably be likely in picking up, simply because there was kind of a barrier of entry. It was hard to understand for people who were sort

of passingly interested in it. And we talked about the IBM s and the machines that corporate customers would use where you had punch cards and and you know, printing and large storage devices and things like that. Well, yeah, I mean those were far more easy in some ways to understand because there were more ways to interact with those machines, but they were also hugely expensive and took up a lot more space than something like the Altair.

This is the kind of divice ice that got people thinking, you know, I could have a computer in my house. I could do things with a computer. I could program this thing this, this could be fun. What could I do with this? And that's really what this group was

all about. And there were other people, uh interested in this as well, like a guy named Jobs, and I believe a couple of guys named Alan and Gates to show up in the logs, and there were there were other people who interacted with all of those guys that that floated in and out of that culture out there in California around that time. Yeah, this is this is

the birth of the personal computer age. And we're talking about the the very early days and uh and you know, of course Bosniak plays a very large role in that, but also uh he had other interests in in finding out how stuff works, which you know we can appreciate, um, like the phone system. He was, he was known to engage in a little phone freaking now and then. We

actually have talked about phone freaking in the past. Essentially, what phone freaking was was finding out how the telephone system worked and then exploiting that knowledge by being able to UH to create things that would allow you to make free phone calls. Um. Usually it would involve recreating a certain kind of tone that the phone would then

um not recognize the fact that you were dialing. It wouldn't register that, so it act as if the line had not been engaged, whereas you could actually make the call for free. So UM, there are a lot of different kits that you could do this with. There, of course, was the famous UH whistle, Yes, UH, the the Captain crunch whistle, or you could whistle into a phone and with this particular toy whistle that came in the Cereal and UH it would recreate the exact pitch you needed

in order to UH to hack the phone system. That changed before too long and they had to start creating electronic devices that could generate Normally it would be two tones together to be able to UH to actually hack into a phone system. Yeah. Well, um, if if you haven't done any research into into phone freaking or listen

to the podcast from Man that was a long time. UM. Basically that the deal was that they had the system in place so that the phone company could do maintenance work and the phone technicians out in the field could use these certain codes. UM. In the case of one of them, it was a high E played three times and that would unlock the system. It was a very

analog system at that point. And uh, you know they the phone company actually published information on this in their Bell Technical Journal, which was available at your local library, and certain people figured this out and any whistle. This is famous because a famous phone freaker named Captain Crunch named that because he realized that the toy whistle that you found in a box of cereal, I'll let you guess which brand, Um, yes, exactly. How How did you know? Um?

You could you could play exactly that note. That's all you needed. You all you had. All you had to do was know that the code and have that whistle. UM. And of course Bell went nuts trying to get the technical that copy of the technical Journal back off the shelf. That this was a mistake to let that information get outside the door of Bell. Yeah, that was not not a great move. We published this, you're not supposed to

want to read about it. Yeah, but people who were interested in electronics, I mean, clearly something as complex as the telephone uh system would be fascinating to them, and that included people like wasn't it Yes? Absolutely? And uh it's it's famous that he and Steve Jobs were actually building phone freaking systems for other people, um and and trying to sell them, which they did on a small scale, and that which kind of set the ground for for

their future endeavors together. They He actually did withdraw from the University of California before completing his degree and began to work for Hewlett Packard and was an an engineer there. He actually worked specifically on designing calculators. Meanwhile, Jobs kind

of came up with this idea. Now, but when you talk about Jobs in Wosniac, they had very different roles when in those early days of Apple, right, Steve Jobs was an idea guy, he was a business guy, and he was a marketing guy most more than anything else. He was a marketing genius. Yeah. I've been reading Isaacson's biography of Steve Jobs, and I'm still not quite done with it yet, but I have passed through the early stages of Apple. There and apparently when they were working

on the Apple one, which was a very basic computer. UM. As a matter of fact, you had the the very early machines weren't really machines. They were a set of boards, basically motherboards and pieces that you would assemble into a case and use it as a computer UM, which sold for as Jonathan likes to point out, the sum of six sixty six dollars and sixty six cents. Wozniak likes

repeating digits. Yeah. Apparently, well, according to them, it had nothing to do with the symbolic nature of this in uh, in religion, it was more THEO there was no but it's hard to imagine that it it's an Apple computer. Yes. Of course they also say that Apple was chosen for

other reasons than the Yeah. That's funny because because Wozniak said that he had just guessed at some point that the reason why Steve Jobs wanted to call the company Apple was that Steve Jobs had worked for a while in an orchard in either Washington or Oregon, and that that perhaps gave him the idea which may or may not be the case, because he said the thing about Jobs was that he would come up with ideas but not necessarily explain to you how he came up with him. Yeah, yeah,

that's true. We also should point out that there was this time in jobs life where he was expanding his consciousness a little bit. Yes, yes, Um, Jobs attended read college up in Oregon and did not finish there, but was was very interested in a number of things, including, uh, expanding one's horizons to the use of chemical substances. Yes, that's very very diplomatic way of putting it. That's not I don't get the sense that that was is interested

in that. I think he likes to expand his consciousness through technological means, which again shows that difference. Jobs was this marketer and Wozniak was the engineer. He was the guy who was really designing the technology. Yeah, well that was That was actually exactly My point is according to the isaacs and story, Um was wanted to give away the design for the original boards for the Apple One, and Jobs said no, no, no, we could sell this thing.

We can make a company, And that intrigue was just enough to go, Okay, yeah, let's give it a try. Yeah, because before at at the Homebrew Computer Club, Wasniak would distribute designs that he would come up with for for computer kids. He would design them on paper and then he would just distribute copies of it to the other members. And jobs was getting to the point where he's like, you know, if we didn't give these away for free,

I bet people would pay for them. And so yeah, he he convinced Wozniak to go in with him on a venture together, and this was the idea of Apple. Yeah, and it wasn't It wasn't easy, Um, you know, Wasosniac was a little reticent to leave HP. I mean, you think about it if you were if your buddy is

telling you, hey, let's go start a company. Meanwhile you're in with a very strong technology company and you're you know, you've got a good job, it's secure, and it's like, well, they're on on the one hand, you got the allure of of you know, this opportunity to do something really cool, but hey, you know, there's not a lot of security, and it's starting your own company can be a challenge, and it can be a lot of work, and it can be scary. Yeah, And a first guarantee, right at first.

He did continue to work with HP, didn't quit immediately. And in fact, one of the stories about founding Apple is that they had to in order to raise the capital they needed, which was not that much by today's standards. I mean, even if you were to convert into today's dollars, they it was a fairly low investment. In fact, that was one of the things that Steve Jobs was able

to to use to convince Bosnia to try. It was because the investment was not going to be prohibitively large, but it's still required that they raised some capital, and they did it by selling off stuff that they owned, and Wozniak sold off his beloved scientific calculator, Yes, which at the time was a pretty hot piece of technology. Yeah, for around something something to the tune of around five dollars at the time, which you know in the seventies.

That's that's it's still a good chunk of change, right, It's it was even more so back then. And uh, the interesting thing to me was that when I read an interview, a more recent interview, wasn't he act really downplayed that? He said, he said, uh, well, here's the thing I'm still technically working for HP, and because I worked for HP, I could buy the next new calculator before it came out and at a lower price than

I did the older calculator. So uh so I thought, even at this company that I'm working on with jobs goes belly up, I still, um, I still have the protection of working for this other company, and I can get my calculator back. Yeah, that's um, which is an important part of context that I think a lot of people miss. Um. But yeah, the the Apple one did reasonably well within those circles, and they started working on

the Apple too. Um. Jobs play, I mean, jobs played a good part in the getting it into stores, But Wazniak had a lot to do with the back end of that machine, especially the the Basic language implement implementation. There you go. He was unfamiliar with Basic at first, and uh, just kind of funny. It's funny, it's hard, but not with Basic. It's also funny that he got really uh he started to really say the basic version that HP uses, which is not the same as the

Basic language that that Bill Gates was working on. So um, it was he was coming at it from a different approach because he was you know, I think at the time he was actually working under the assumption that was essentially the same thing, but turned out it was two

different versions of basic to two pretty significant different versions. Also, I should point out, so so they founded Apple in nineteen seventy six, and it wasn't it was just nineteen seventy seven when Apple two came out, so that that first Apple, we should really point out, it was more like a almost like a run of prototypes. It would they only made a small, a relatively small number of these because, for one thing, they didn't know how big

the demand was going to be. They knew that their fellow computer enthusiasts would enjoy this kind of thing because they also shared the vision that computers would one day be an integral part of our lives. But at the time, the average person, like the average consumer, didn't necessarily have any desire or need for a computer, or at least they didn't think they did. And uh, and so it was it was definitely not a sure thing when they

were first getting started. But nineteen seventy seven, Apple two comes out, and I think, uh, I think you could describe its success as being meteoric. Oh yeah, yeah, Well, Um. That's one of the reasons that Wozniak says that he worked so hard on the basic HUM structure for the two microprocessor was was simply that he realized that basic was going to be a big help to people who were going to adopt these and he wanted people to understand that computers could play a significant role in their

personal lives. And so he said, you know this is you know, I basically hunkered down to do this because I knew this was going to be important. And that's that's something that you see when you look at that Steve Wozniak's career is that he obviously he's willing to put his his back into it and really work on something that he is very passionate about like this, Um the very other you know, there are other things too.

He talks about having to write the disc operating software for the the earlier machines, and he didn't this was not something that he was familiar with. Yeah, he had never really used magnetic storage like that, but he made it work because he knew it was important. Um. Not that not downe to discount other people all over the world who do this every day. But I'm saying you know, as we're looking at Steve Wozniak, this is uh technology is is clearly part of his DNA, and it's it

he he needs to to make it work. One of the things that I read about him too in the Isaacs and um biography of Jobs was that uh um, apparently he was just really good at finding innovative solutions to the challenges that that came up while they were creating the actual machines. His engineering expertise, it's more than just It's sort of like a virtuoso and a musical instrument.

You have people who can play the instrument, but there are very few people that can that can pick it up and do something really brilliant with it that you wouldn't expect to do because they don't teach that. It's just the thing that you sort of innately have. Yeah, and apparently he is. He just got that um ability to to look at a technology and know how it works and go, well, you know what, I know, this isn't work in this way just for kicks, Let's plug

this in this way and see if that works. Yeah. He he had a real interesting attitude too. He said that, you know, in general, in a broad stroke. He said, if he could build a machine that had two hundred chips in it, he would then look at that design and say, how can I build a machine that does the exact same thing this thing does, but with a

hundred fifty chips? And he would do it. And then after that he'd say, okay, well, how can I build a machine that does all the things this machine does, but only with a hundred chips and just continuously refine that design so that it was more and more elegant and more efficient in each iteration. That was sort of his thought process, which is, you know, that's a good thing. Well, it's funny you should mention that because there there is another story that jobs in Wosniak were working to get

there at Atari to develop a game machine. Now I don't think Wosniak was that, if my memory serves, It's been a few days since I've read that, Uh if Memory Serves Wasnac wasn't actually working for Atari. Um Jobs actually kind of convinced him to work on this project, but they they were supposed to. They were trying to create this machine and the challenge was it's like, hey, you know, if you can do this with uh fewer chips in this time period, we'll go ahead and go

with this idea. So Jobs knew that Wosniak had the the expertise to make it work, and he did that. The point of doing this was to save money because these chips were not cheap UM, so the fewer components that you could use on the circuit board, the more money you could save. And doing that and make the project more cost efficient in the end, and uh, thanks to was they actually made it work. Of course. Uh, they're known for Breakout The two of them both worked

on Breakout UM, which is a classic Autari game. UM. But yeah, I mean that that paid off both on that project and their work they did for Apple because they would continually revise the design to make it, to make it more cost efficient and make it more effective. Because what was is one of those people that believes that UM technology should be accessible to people. Um. I was gonna say, well, you might say, well, hey, Apple is known for having high priced computers. What are you

talking to? High price computers and closed systems. Yes, two things that you would imagine would be antithetical to that philosophy. Well that's true, and uh, but I would argue that, Um, we need to take a look at the exit of Wozniak from Apple because, um, a lot of that did not surround the Apple to the Apple two was a very affordable machine, which is why it ended up in

a lot of people's homes, in a lot of schools. Yeah, So in order to get there, we need to we need to to get back to like about nineteen eighties when Apple went public, and that was of course a big event. Chris and I will have more to say about the laws in just a moment, but first let's take a quick break. One was a huge year for Wazniak in both triumph and tragedy. Uhe he returned to UC Berkeley to finish out his degree in electrical engineering

and computer science under an assumed name. I would also guess that he probably cruised through a lot of that. Probably, Yeah, the fact that the fact that there may have been courses that were referring to his own work might have might have done that. But also that year, he um, he was the act a man who has a lot of different interests in one of those was piloting airplanes, and he owned his own private airplane. At this point,

because Apple very quickly was a huge success. You know, I launched in nineteen seventy six, and by one he had enough to have his own private plane. And he was piloting his private plane and crashed while trying to take off at the Santa Cruz SkyPark And it was pretty serious crash and he was very badly hurt in that. In that accident, I suffered from amnesia for quite some time. Yeah, yeah, I had a lot of different injuries, memory loss. It took about two years of rehabilitation for him to get

back to how he was before the accident. But around that time, the Apple two was really starting to become a true success story, like a huge success story in personal computing. And uh and by three, so this is just a couple of years after Apple has gone public.

Three years after Apple's gone public, it was valued the company was valued at nine hundred and eighty five million dollars if you looked at its stock, if you were to value the company by how much stock was out there and the price that stock was trading at, so just under a billion dollars. And again the company is not even ten years old yet. So you know, Wazniak's work was really starting to pay off for the company

and for Wozniak at the time. Yep. He also uh in addition to this, while he was going through his recovery period, got involved in another one of his passions, which is music. Hosted the now infamous US festivals in California, UM which were both were which were known for being huge, I mean very very large events. Think of um things like um Um, you know Lollapalooza now or Lilith Fair. I mean kinds of events like that where they're I know, I am, but but I don't go to large outdoor

events like that or the festive Well. Yeah, but they did have a diverse line of different kinds of Yes, actually they were. They were sort of incompetent Asian into some degree because Coachella had then had been out for many years, more than a decade out in California. UM, but they it was sort of a blend of technology and music, which makes me think more of south By Southwest now than than that. But at that time that's

not the kind of events that we're going on. There were more I think inspired from the many years earlier Woodstock and events like that, where it was just the large outdoor music festivals, but they were also known for extravagance. Um. You know, there were some artists like uh van Halen and David Bowie who were taking home more than a million dollars in early eighty two and eighty three, the early eighties, I mean, um and, which were tremendous sums

of money at that point. Um and and it's I think regarded by a lot of people now the US festivals sort of a a sort of a punch line to a joke, although I'm not sure what the setup would be uh um, but I don't know that it was completely unsuccessful. I just think that, uh, it was sort of a tribute to was his generosity and the fact that he paid people really uh, you know, generous sums of money. But I think he was just having a good time with a lot of people. Yeah. He

also took this time to start getting into philanthropy. He began to really invest, specifically in the education system near his own home. He began to uh to help UH schools get computers and training on how to use the computers. He was very enthusiastic at fostering education, which is no surprise considering, you know, his father had helped him, and he does credit his you know, several teachers went in his elementary school days as really being the inspiration for

him to pursue his interests. So it's not a big surprise that he wanted to to kind of pay it forward and and do that on himself. So he began to do that and Uh. In fact, his his contributions to technology and philanthropy led up to him receiving the award, the the National Medal of Technology in He was awarded that by the United States President, who at the time was Ronald Reagan and received that and it's the highest honor bestowed on America's inventors and innovators. Yes, the award

has come up several times over the course of tech stuff. UM. You know, probably was it one of the people we would actually have heard of. Um they were losing. Jobs were sort of rock stars in the early eighties because of the the the prominence of the Apple two. UM. And you know, there were there were cover stories on magazines, business magazines, UH and UH and news magazines about these guys. They were they were sort of well known. Of course,

Jobs is a little bit more outspoken. He's known as the UM you know, more of the the marketing face of the company, especially UM recently, but even back then in the in the early days of the company. UM as technology went on at Apple, though, as things started to change and they started focusing on, uh, diversifying the lines UM was, you know, was sort of not as integral to the the creation of machines like the Apple three, the Lisa, and the Macintosh like he had been with

the Apple too. And I think that was partially due of course, to the to the accident and the need for his recovery. Just he just wasn't as um as UM available during that time as he would have done otherwise. Yeah, and then UM and by Ve big changes were happening

at Apple. Uh. The biggest was that Steve Jobs left the company and that depending on how you define it, he was either fired because he was having some really nasty conflicts with the with Apple's board of directors, or he was just marginalized to the point where he just

stopped showing up to work. UM. But really, I mean essentially they kept giving him a d a smaller role over time and distancing him Steve Jobs, that is, away from the main operations of Apple, and so Steve Jobs left in five Niac stuck around with Apple for a couple more years. He would not leave the company until Yes, and to some degree he still holds a consulting role

with the company today. His and he left the company, but Apple still I guess it's safe to say they never completely severed their relationship, although he doesn't go into work there like he used to. Um. And he's and you wouldn't necessarily call him an Apple evangelist either. I mean he says in frequent interviews he will say or frequently interviews I should say, he will say he loves Apple. But at the same time, he is not shy to criticize Apple for things that he views as as uh

as a as as failures or as mistakes. He is very He's known for being very honest and very upfront and just uh, you know, giving his opinion. He's a straight shooter when it comes to that, and not in necessarily a mean way, but very matter of fact. Um yeah, actually uh. When he started to work on some other projects that one of the first was cl nine. This is a company that was known for creating the first programmable universal remote YEP. And so this again shows that

wozniak interest in electronics was still very, very high. He just I think wosnia X one of those guys who really likes to find a new challenge, and you know, once he's done that, once he's managed to to accomplish whatever that challenges, then he ready to move on to

the next one. In fact, again from listening to him talk, I would say that that's just one of those things he really values, is the idea of innovation, research and development, building new stuff and not just making constant improvements over older technology. In fact, that might have been one of the reasons why he left Apple, was that he was starting to see Apple turned into this company that was more interested in releasing incremental updates to its technology rather

than truly innovating and building something that's really cool. And in fact, that's a that's a criticism that he has leveled recently at Apple over the last few years, saying that Apple seems to be content to release new versions of truly innovative and amazing products. You know, he loves things like the iPad and the iPhone and all that. He thinks those are great, But why he doesn't think is great is that Apple seems to be content to just give updates to those products rather than try and

create something wholly new. Now that may not be completely fair. There may be some things developing an Apple about which we know nothing that could blow our minds any day now, like the Apple TV that we keep on hoping will come out. But you know that that the perception that Wozniak has is that, uh, Apple's not currently really in that innovative space. In fact, recently he said that Microsoft

was showing more of that sort of innovative approach. Doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a success for Microsoft, but he was saying that you know, Windows eight, Windows Phone, Ate, the surface tablet, all of that was kind of pointing there was such a radical departure from the stuff that Microsoft had been doing that it was a much more innovative approach than what Apple was currently doing. Right well, um, you know he uh he ended up butting heads with

c L nine with Apple. Um. He was trying to contract the design firm Frog Design, uh to get the product designed for him, and Apple had brought Frog Design to California with the idea that they were going to be their designers, their product designers, and Apple said no, you cannot do that. That was part of their their U their UM contract with them. UM. But yeah, he very much, uh you know, had an idea because he knew that these guys were innovators in the way things

looked and felt. UM. So it doesn't surprise me much that that was likes um the kinds of products that Apple comes out with. But uh, you know, they had a similar design sense. But Apple did not appreciate that at the time. UM. Oh and uh, we didn't mention, but well, it's probably looking at the timeline here, UM probably should mention some of the other things that he

got into over the years. Of course, he's been a speaker UM for many, many years now, including dating back to that that time he was sort of a coveted personality for m keynotes and different kinds of addresses. Uh and uh. He started several companies. See all nine was just one of them. Wheels of Zeus was one of my favorites. Yes, the acronym Wheels of Zeus is laws in in two thousand one, and that was back uh in the early days of trying to come up with

uses for GPS. Yeah. The idea being that if you can have a wireless GPS UH network, then you would be able to locate stuff. Really, that was one of his ideas. He said he wanted to help people be able to locate things. Yes, all right, that was you know so, yeah, and was or as in Wheels of Zeus, not Wazniac, but Wheels of Zeus lasted for about five years that it closed up in two thousand six. Ye also and uh he in uh going back a bit. No, No, it's fine. I just wanted to mention, you know, being

a co founder of the Electronic Frontier Foundation. I mean this is huge. The Electronic Frontier Foundation or e f F, is an organization that advocates for openness and freedom on the internet in the computer world. They are also known for doing things like helping provide legal assistance to hackers that are being pursued by by government officials or or you know, by law enforcement. They're known for helping out

folks who might otherwise be seen as troublemakers. Um, but it's really all about promoting the freedom of information and the trying to keep as as much of the uh the manipulation or or or um, the just just trying to keep the government out of controlling technology in all its forms. Mainly it tends over the last several year, it tends to mostly be about the Internet, but it's it goes beyond that. Yeah. Yeah, and then they are

very interested in uh, you know, privacy issues issues. Uh, not to uh, not to protect what you might call black hat hackers, um, but more to give people the opportunity to uh control their technology lives a little bit more openly and and do more with it rather than having that spoken for for them. Yeah. Wozniak has has really come across as someone who who wants the individual to have as much control and say in that sort of thing, and less of that should go to things

like corporations and governments. So uh, you know this, it's obvious why he would want to co found that organization like BFF. And in two thousand he was inducted into the Inventor's Hall of Fame and also receive the Hinz Award for Technology, the Economy and employe. Yes, I wanted to mention the Hines Award, So I'm glad you did that. And it's not the Hines Stefenschmertz Award. Curse you bury the Platypaus We've got a little bit further to go with Chris Polette's final episode as a co host of

Tech Stuff. But before we get to that sad moment, let's take another quick break. This is a period, um the early two thousand's where we kind of didn't hear a lot from him. I mean, he's not the kind of person that that, um, you read about in the society pages so much. Although until the late two thousands, well, you know, making appearances on shows like Kathy Griffin in My Life on the d List. Yeah, he was dating

her at the time. Yes, yes, Um. He's also been on The Big Bang Theory and of course Dancing with the Stars cutting a rug on a segue, yes, yes he uh he showed. I watched some of that, and I have to admit he showed a tremendous sense of humor about being on that show. Um. And uh he's as a dancer, he is a really incredible programmer. Nice. Um an excellent compliment and uh, I am neither. So I really can't talk, but I will. I will say

that that, but I think he would probably agree. Um yeah he um, uh, yeah, he seemed to really kind of have fun with his own you know, public persona, although he's not you know, he's not like a celebrity in the sense of jumping out and trying to attract attention. That doesn't seem to really be his his style. He's even been known, like on on launch days for Apple products to go and wait in line at an Apple store.

There was one story where, uh he I remember it was one of the early iPhones, I want to say, where he was walking to the Apple store to go get in line, and then he got ushered into the front of the line, and he actually felt badly about it because he was like, you know, he didn't feel that he should necessarily be treated any differently than any other customer. Um. And but a lot of people who were in line are like, dude, that's woznia. He could

totally go in It's okay, Yeah I would. I would imagine that that he has enough of a following where you know, there there would be a certain amount of tolerance among the other shoppers that day. Um. He's also known, of course, over over time to be a rather uh playful prankster of sorts. He's famed, of course for many

different stunts with two dollar bills. Um. I have actually tried to pass two dollar bills, which are completely legal, and they have people confused by them because you don't see them all the time, which of course lends itself to was a sort of sense of humor. Now you can buy, as he will point out, complete sheets of one dollar, two dollar, and five dollar bills from the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. You can get a sheet of an uncut sheet of bills. They're completely legal, they

just haven't been cut apart. In fact, they're perforated. So he has been known to buy sheets of these, you know, separate them and have them laminated into a pad, and go in and buy stuff and peel off a series of two dollar bills, which are of course are numbered sequentially. It's very weird. Two dollar bills are weird to begin with, and then you add that it looks like this guy just peeled off money and handed it to me, am

I supposed to take it. Apparently he's been to Vegas and tried to stunt and had security people come and uh talked to him about exactly what's going I've encountered Vegas security. I know exactly what you're talking about. And of course if it were me, I would be sweating like about it. He keeps doing. Really, I didn't know that that the government doesn't, you know, make these perforated

bills available. Really, I bought these from some guy. What what's great is that I wouldn't have had the nerve. I should also point out that while two dollar bills are unusual here in the United States, in other places there are two dollar coins. So for our friends in Canadia, yes, and our friends in Canadia, your twnis are very adorable, like I actually do like tunis. I like Looney's and tunis. Yes,

I agree. If you would like to send me Looney's and twnis, do so at the house Stuff Works address, Carroll Jonathan Strickland. Kids, go check your parents. No, never mind, um but uh but but yeah, what you were talking about about innovation and openness and technology. He has recently, as of the time we're recording this, in late Ben photographed in front of the large uh different versions of Google androids. We have Android people, and people go, it's

the Apple co founder in front of the Android androids. Well, yeah, because he tries pretty much everything. Yeah, he's just a computer omnivore. He actually says that he will, you know, he loves he loves technology, and he loves Gadgy doesn't doesn't necessarily love what corporations are doing or what governments are doing, but he loves the technology. And he specifically, I had an hour and a half of sleep last night, folks,

I would and watch the Hobbit anyway. So he specifically really likes uh platforms that are are that allow you to do lots of stuff right, So the Android platform gives a lot of flexibility to users. It's something that can be overwhelming to someone who's not necessarily an enthusiast, but for someone who really likes hacking and getting their their hands dirty with technology, the Android platform is very attractive because it's you can make a lot of changes yourself,

you know, and and Google facilitates that. Depending on which handset manufacturer and which carrier you're with, it may or may not be very easy to do. But he also says he likes to try everything because he doesn't want to form a a prejudice against any particular platform without giving it a real fair shot. And so he goes out when a new phone comes out, he'll go out

and buy it. So often like, I've seen pictures of what Wozniak was carrying on a given day, and it's usually something like five or six smartphones and then maybe a tablet and then maybe two computers. It's like, you figure, it's got to be around fifty pounds of technology at least. Yeah. It It kind of reminds me of the nineties version of Dilbert where he used to have the gadget utility belt. Um, you actually knew some people like that? Um yeah, yeah,

I used to try and do that them. My pants kept falling down, dude, looking like a fool with the pants on the ground. I was, in fact. Yeah. So currently he's working at a food Fusion Io or Fusion EO Fusion HEO was Fusion dash Io as a chief scientist and that's the company is a data storage and server company. So he's he's currently that's you know, his

technical job title at the moment. But he does do a lot of speaking events and you know, you'll still see him at things like a TED conferences and other big events where you know, they need to have someone there who who really knows the ins and outs of technology, who is truly an advocate for technology, for the consumer and who just you know, he's just very passionate and

loves to share that with other people. That's it's a great couple of qualities to have, Like, there are a lot of people who are really passionate about what they do, but they don't necessarily communicate that or share that with people. But wasn't he acts he's like, you know, you would have to tie him down for him not to to to be a brilliant over his love of tech. Yeah, it's uh, from from just about all accounts I've read about about Steve Wozniak, He's he's not the kind of

person who who hides his emotions very well. He's, uh, he's excited about a lot of stuff, and when he is, he you know, he shares that with you. Um, I should say that he doesn't hide his his excitement for technology very well because he's, uh, he's really gregarious when it comes to that. He may not be necessarily outspoken about his personal life as much or or want to

jump into the spotlight. But if you ran into him and he had fifteen minutes to talk about some kind of technology with you, I don't think it would be much of a stretch. Based on Again, I've never met him, but uh, if he wanted to stry a cup of conversation with him about virtually any kind of technology, I don't think he would turn you down, or if he did, he would do it politely. Well, it seems like just

a just a great guy. He does he does. I would be very interested to talk with him, except I would be intimidated that he had discovered that I'm a complete idiot within like two minutes of chatting with me. Well, I mean, it doesn't take the rest of us that long. You know. Maybe I'm hoping that he would just have a lot of optimism. And that wraps up this classic episode of text Stuff once again. I want to thank

Chris Polette for the amazing work he did. I mean, you know, we're six years past, almost seven years past when this happened, and uh, he's still very much a part of tech Stuff's culture. The puns, I would argue, are Chris Polette's contribution to this show. I love puns, but I wasn't really known for making them in the show quite like Chris was. I hope you guys enjoyed it. If you have any suggestions for future episodes, of tech Stuff.

Please reach out and let me know The email addresses tech stuff at how stuff works dot com, where you can drop a line on Facebook or Twitter. The handle of both of those is tech Stuff hs W. Go to our website that's tech stuff podcast dot com. You will find a link to the archive of every episode we've ever published. You will also find a link to our online store, where every purchase you make goes to out the show and we greatly appreciate it, and I'll

talk to you again really soon. Text Stuff is a production of I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.