Spotlight on Vint Cerf

long abandoned. For those of you who are a long time listeners, we used to talk about some of the personalities that we think had a huge impact on the tech world, and we kind of haven't done it a one. Yeah, we we we hit a few big names early on, like Dean Cayman and Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, and then we kind of went quiet for a while. So we thought we'd go back and revisit that kind of uh you know topic. It's it's interesting to talk about.

So today we're talking about venton vent Surf. All right, where do you want to start from the beginning? Yeah, Well, a lot of you, uh you younger listeners might not have ever heard of him. Yeah, but he's very important. As a matter of fact, you probably would not be listening to us at all if it were not. Actually, we probably wouldn't have the jobs we have right now if it weren't for Venten Surf. Thank you, Mr Surf.

Right um ac, Yes, doctor Surf. In fact, he holds many degrees, Yes, he does, lots and lots of degrees. So he has a he has a PhD in computer science and uh um he has a Bachelor of Science and mathematics, and then he has all these honorary degrees. Um smart, smart, guy, wicked smart, you might say if you were from the northeast. Um. So he's also referred to very often as one of the fathers of the Internet. And you might wonder why that is, Like did he

actually build the physical uh machines that make up the Internet. Well, to to really understand this, when to go back a little before Vinton Serf became involved in this project. How far back? Alright, So back in the fifties, the nineteen fifties, Yes, not the seventeen fifties or anything like. You're going that far back. The fifties alright, So the Soviet Union launches sput nick all right, very small round silver thing that beeped a lot went beep. That's pretty much all it did,

and m and scared people. And it scared people for two reasons. One they were thinking, does this mean that the Soviet Union can spy on the United States because the United States and Soviet Union were then engaged in what was known as the Cold War. And yes, and and even more frightening than that, if the Soviet Union had the capability of launching a rocket into space, it could also launch a rocket at the United States and cause massive amounts of damage. Now, at this time, computers

were rare. There are only a you computers in the United States. Um. And they were big, huge machines, taking up entire floors of buildings in some cases. And um they're centralized. They were not able to communicate with one another in any easy way. So there was a need to find a way to have computers communicate with one

another so that you decentralize this computing power. UM. Because the idea was that if if there were an attack on the United States on one of these computing sites and it was hit, you would lose that information forever, right, So you wanted to find a way where you can move information around very quickly, and you wanted to create it in such a way so that if one particular site were hit, the entire network could still function without it. Right. So this was this became the the area of interest

for the Department of Defense UM. They had the Advanced Research Projects Agency, which at the time was called ARPA. We now know it as DARPA UM and they wanted to come up with this computer network idea, the way of networking computers together so they can communicate. And uh,

and so the ARPA net project began. Yeah, this is the late sixties, right right, And uh, that might sound somewhat familiar to you because you're thinking, well, you know, the Internet is a bunch of computers connected together that that you know, Hey, look that's the Internet. Well yes,

but not quite yet, because it's all these computers. We're all running different and very odd operating systems in a lot of cases written specifically for that machine, right, And and so they didn't really talk the same language exactly. And the Internet is really a network of networks, so it gets a little more complicated. Arpanet was really just a network, that's true. Yes, the arpanet was the Internet didn't exist on the scale, and it did does now right.

In fact, at the beginning, Arpanet only had four nodes um for computers that were connected to another, so it was one network. But yes, as Plett pointed out, each of these computers had its own sort of proprietary language. Now they could all understand binary, but that's about it.

So one of the challenges was to find a way to connect these computers together physically because they were located miles and miles and miles apart um across the United States in one case, and then beyond that, find a way where once they're physically connected, how can they actually exchange information. So in the nineteen seventies, remember nineteen sixties

was when ar Ponnette the project started. Now, in the nineteen seventies, Venton Surf joined the Arpanette project, and it was Venton's job, along with a couple of others, including Robert Kahn, to come up with a way to create a protocol, a set of rules for these computers to use to communicate with each other that any computer could understand. Now, the original protocol was the Network Control p call. Wasn't

that network something like that? It was a network communication protocol, I guess is what it was, the n c P. Yeah, and I remember it by its initials. I don't remember the initials. Someone will right in and correct me. So that's that's fine. I'll address that in the future episode. But the n c P UM. The problem with n c P was that it didn't scale very well. It just didn't have the capability to handle lots of computers.

That worked fine for a small scale and didn't Surf originally worked a little bit on this project, but everyone realized I needed to find something new if they wanted to create a real network of networks. Believe that's network control, program control. I just only see I didn't hit all right, So you don't have to write in because Plett actually just pulled up this municipal thing called Google, which I've heard about. You know it it works over this thing

called the Internet. Yeah, well we're getting there and that runs on alright. So what we're getting to is the TCP slash i P protocols. And I know there's someone out there right now who's yelling at me because as the P stands for protocol, and I said protocols, just you know, take a volume, Take a deep breath, it's gonna be all right. So these the t c P and i P protocols. Uh, so you might be wondering, all right, so what the heck are these things? So

i P stands for Internet Protocol. TP is Transmission control protocol, yes, and the i P what that does. It moves the packets of data around from one node to another. That's the that's the set of rules that governs that transmission of information. YEP. Like everything else computer, it has to be planned down to a very fine set of details. And so this is basically the highway part of the

information super highway. If we're gonna overuse that metaphor, but yeah, I mean it has to have the the right paving that the cars can travel on if we're gonna go with that. Okay, So the t c P I P helps packets get from one place to the other because you know, they need the right type of of transmission to get from one place to the other. So that's the one that everybody is settled on now. It's very efficient,

it works, you know. And the Transmission control protocol part is uh, that's what is responsible for verifying the correct delivery of data from client to server. So they're kind of two different protocols that are always grouped together, so we almost think of them as a single entity. That's

why you usually hear TCP slash I p UM. And without it, we wouldn't have a standardized way of of exchanging information across the network, which would mean that when you had two different networks and you wanted to connect the too, you would have to find a brand new way to have them communicate without this protocol. But because this was set upon so early, UM, we can thank that and serve for creating a way for different computer

networks to exchange information. So if you work at a at an office that has its own computer network, or if you go to a college or school that has its own network that also connects to the Internet, the TCP, SLASH, I p those those protocols, that's what allows you to to get that information. Otherwise he would only be restricted to whatever happened to be on your local area network. Yeah, and I think, uh, I think this important piece of work is why he has so widely recognized, although there's

so many other things that he's involved in. UM. You know, of course, now he's the vice president and Chief Internet Evangelist for Google. Yes, I like that chief Internet evangelist step forward and be healed here. Well, well, not exactly. I know. I'm sorry. I was brought up in the Bible belt. Well that's you know, that's one form of evangelism that, yes, he does. He is sort of an ambassador for the Internet. Not like the Internet needs one. Um, but yeah, he's he's Um, he's a big important guy

over at Google. In fact, he was so important that he was on the list of a lot of people's guesses for who Bamba might pick as ct O. That's true, that's true. That's a brand new office, the the Chief Technology Officer of the United States. Um And he was on a list of some very distinguished names. Yes, but was not ultimately chosen. No. Um, but that's that's neither here nor there. Let's let's stick on, Mr sir. Well, I'm not sure. I'm not sure he would have left

Google anyway. Yeah, see gig So, so let's say, all right, so he was working with DARPA until the early eighties. Um So, through the seventies into the eighties, he he helped he and Robert con helped define exactly how the transmission of data was going to to happen across networks. Uh in the early eighties. Now remember this is this is back when the Internet is still pretty much just in the realm of government agencies and universities. So he leaves and joins the m c I. Who comes a

vice president of m c I for a while. Then for a while he was a vice president for the Corporation for Natural Research, initially of National Research Initiatives. Yes, I natural it's a national didn't I, I don't know. Well, then Corporation for National Research Initiatives. Naturally, and because I do do that, it happens. But then after that he went back to m c I became a senior vice president.

He was there until about two thousan five and eventually then he made his way over to Google, where he Um, he still does a lot of important presentations. Um, he's still very much involved in and things that are transmission of data across networks. I mean, he's still very, very heavily involved in that kind of work. Well, it makes a lot of sense, you know, given how invested Google is in the Internet, you know, not just the search engine aspect of the company, but you know, they do

so much innovative work on new initiatives. That makes sense that they would want someone along who had that kind of experience. I mean, they their goal is to organize the world's information. That's that goes so far beyond just the Internet in a way you think the Internet search engine that was the first step. Ultimately Google will be in charge of everything or else, which is why I joined ranks early, working my way up. You know your place in the in the Google Yes, exactly, I'm I'm

I'm a low level evangelist for Google. So um. But yeah, let's let's talk about some of the other stuff. He's he's also involved in the UH in the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. He's he's working on a design for interplanetary Internet. Interplanetary Internet. Yeah, I you know what, I didn't turn that one up.

You didn't know that. Yeah, that was one of the projects that the Jet Propulsion Laboratories working on is finding a way to create Internet links so that when man does colonize things like the Moon or Mars, that there is a way to have of Internet communication between the Earth and wherever those other folks happen to be. You know, when they when they get to Mars and some of those other places. They're going to find that there's a Starbucks in a subway on every corner, are they. Well?

I was thinking that when they get to Mars, there darnwell gonna want the internet because what else is there going to be doing? I mean, besides surviving? What else do you have to do? That's a good point. How's the weather, red? Yeah? Kinda wait, back to a back to events surfing, right, we were talking about him. I was amused to find out that he was a technical advisor for Gene Roddenberry's Earth Final Conflict, and he even made a guest appearance in Yes I remember it well.

He's even been on Next Wave with Leonard Nimoi, Live Long and prosper So, so you know, yeah, he's a happening guy. Yeah. Yeah, unless he's a you know, a fellow of the I triple e yes. Yes, And he said on the board of CAN and a C M and a A S. And he has has Academy of Arts and Science and he has more awards than I can even count. I actually, uh, honestly, guys, I honestly had a photo of vents surf hanging in my cubicle

until fairly recently. That is very impressive. It was given to me by our own Candice Keener, after I had no idea. I wrote, and well, this is I'd seen it there, but I didn't know that's where it came from.

For those of you who are who are keeping up with all of our podcasts, and you know Candice Keener from the stuff you missed in history class, Candice used to be my editor, but then apparently she did something right and I got shifted over to Pallette, who apparently was behaving poorly and that's why he has to be

edit me. So but yes, back when Candice was my editor, I wrote a couple of articles about our pinette and how did the Internet get started, which involved Vent and Surf, and it was apparently quite clear that I admired the man, and so she printed out ay a photo of Mr Surf, doctor surf um with a loving message beneath it, and uh, I had that up in my cubicle until very recently. I took it down when when Discovery Communications people came

through the office. Well, um, you know, I just think that doctor Surf is one of those people that has had such an amazing role in all of our lives, but you just don't really know. Yeah, he's not one of those personalities that gets out there and you know, it's not not sort of an attention hound or anything like that. And and he's definitely not you know, the he's not in the foreground of any particular movement or anything.

So it's quite possible that if you're not you know, if you're not a student of the Internet, you wouldn't even know his name. That that's uh, that's very true. And there are lots and lots of other people who have played a part like that. Yeah, the team we should we should hasten to add that the team that designed to our pannette and the the other systems that

eventually morphed into the Internet, uh, was rather large. Um. There were dozens of people involved in this, not just than Surf and Robert Kahn, there are plenty of others and um uh and all things considered, they built it in a very short period of time, got it to work. UM. Just very impressive. Yeah, and it's one of those things where people were impressed at that that things like the TCP slash i P was able to scale so well because originally there was talk of of of redoing it

before the Internet really took off. Um, But they discovered that was much more robust than they had they had anticipated, so it ended up serving just fine. Um. That's probably one of the reasons why some people talk about the need for an Internet too, because we can build on what we learned from Internet one and create an even

better system. Now, the thing is that the original Internet is so well entrenched at this point, Um, doesn't make more sense to create a brand new system or does it just make more sense to keep on adding to the one we've already got. I sense foreshadowing here. What then, maybe we'll do an article or or a podcast later about Internet to I wouldn't say that we're going to do a podcast later about Internet to know. You wouldn't know,

but we are, Okay, so you did. Yeah anyhow, Yeah, it'll probably come much later, after we've done a lot more research. But yeah, it's you know, it's a testimony to how well it works and how robust it is that that we're still using it thirty years later plus years later. And now granted now most of us are only been using it for since the at the earliest, since the early nineties. I guess some some of us probably earlier than that, if we've worked on government systems

or in colleges. But um, I remember my first real encounter with the internet had to be when I got into college, so sometime around ninety three, maybe I just gave away my age. Yeah yeah, yeah, mine was before that, So I remember the clay tablets. I remember I wrote about that. So anyway, that's a that's a that's a just a brief rundown on Mr Doctor surf um and hopefully you learned a little bit more about him in this podcast. He's, like we said, a very fascinating person.

So and you know, if you want to read more, there's plenty of information out there about him. And as we said, he's still very much active in guiding the way we transmit information. So once again, thank you Dr Surf because I like this job. Yeah no kidding, Well, that wraps up all I had to talk about. Do you have anything else you when I add, not really? Well, I guess that just brings us back round again to

listener me. You know, you can thank TC T I P for allowing you to hear that sound or a cursive whichever is you know you prefer, I know which I prefer. So this email comes from Robert in Indiana. Hi, I just wanted to write and tell you guys, I love your podcast. I had a question though about IP addresses. What exactly are they and why are they important? So we you know, we talked a little bit about the Internet Protocol, so I thought we could kind of hit

IP addresses. UM. One of the ways, the one of the reasons the Internet actually works is because this this IP address idea it gives it's like a physical address in a way, except that you know, it's not anchored to a physical location, but it's one allows computers to find one another, so that you can transmit information to and from one computer, and you know, or two different computers really work. I think hundreds and hundreds of computers

when you actually look at the process. But without IP addresses, no computer would know where any other computer was, and you wouldn't be able to get any information at all. So your IP address, you can think of it sort of like a street address in a way. Again, it's not tied to a geographical location, but it is how your computer identifies itself and identifies other computers, so that trans the transmission of information can occur. Yeah. Um, it's

actually very not particularly pleasant to look at. It's uh, in most cases, four sets of numbers, right, um, separated by dots UM, and generally might be something like zero dot one oh one, dot two oh five, dot six. Oh you're gonna get emails? No go ahead? What? No? No, no go ahead? All right? Anyhow, that's that's I p V four UM, And that's that's generally what we use now. And there are a lot of different combinations that you can create with that, which gives us a lot of

different IP addresses. Of course, um. Coming up, they're working toward a newer system called i p V six, which offers even more combinations of numbers. Um. But yeah, I mean it's not like you know, two Main Street, you know. Uh, it just uses a series of numbers and dots that that helps you know, the information get to where it's

going from my place to the next. And the what you're familiar with domain names, those are really just kind of a just sort of a mask that sits on top of the IP address and that sort of humanizes the IP address its remember and otherwise we would have to remember these strings of numbers to send information to specific computers, and that one't necessarily works so well because not every computer has a static IP address. I would think most don't. That's very true. Actually, I I used

to work for an Internet service provider and UM. One of the things they found out was that, you know, they couldn't if everybody had a static IP address, which means one that doesn't change. UM. They had to continue to buy more I P addresses, right, And the problem with that is, you know, well John and hasn't been home for a week and his IP address is going unused. So finally they said, you know, look, we need to

assign these dynamically. You'll see dynamic IP addressing. That means we've got a pool of fifty I P addresses and forty five people are online at any given time, then

we can just assign them as needed. You know, it's yours as long as you're online and it doesn't change UM, and as soon as you log off, it gets reassigned to somebody else, and all the information that goes from that person's computer to the Internet and back with whatever information they're doing they're using, UM gets to where it's

supposed to be going. But that's the difference in static and I p uh stack and dynamic IP addressing and uh, you know it is a hard and fast identifier, but your IP is probably assigning one to you on the fly, depending on when you're online. And Robert had one other question that we might try and answer. Okay, can I be hacked if someone finds my IP address? Technically yeah you can't. Yeah, huh, but they would have to know the thing about that is, they'd have to know exactly

where you are. I mean, somebody could randomly hack, you know, direct an attack at that IP address. You could get a denial of service attack sent to your IP address UM where people try to send you a lot of messages all at once and take you offline. And that could that could work very easily, but they would have to know where you you know, if it was going to come at you from a specific person, just what are you afraid of? Um? Then who have you been

taking off? Who have you been upsetting? Here? It wasn't met and served smart, but yeah, he could probably figure out where your IP address this if you were online at that particular time. And this was theoretical until recently, I believe. Yeah, yeah, it is it is possible. I mean, you can also spoof an IP address with uh, you know,

basically you appear to come from one IP address. You know, somebody, UM, if you had a static IP address assigned to you, and somebody else wanted to, um, you know, launch an attack on somebody else and make make it look like it was from you, they could spoof. Uh, they could appear to be coming from your IP address, and then uh, then everybody would come back to your house and go, hey, what are you doing? You know what why you hate me so much? Yeah? So theoretically possible, but it's kind

of improbable. I mean, especially if you're on a dynamically assigned IP address like an average person would be, because there then it's a one and fifty shot. Using the example you used earlier, Okay, I'm not going for numbers that I didn't bother to look up. Well, no, that was just an example. When we're talking about major I sp s, we're talking about huge numbers here. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, so I was just using your Okay, that was it.

So thanks very much Robert for your email. If any of you have any questions for us, you can write us tech stuff at how stuff works dot com. And remember, at House of Works dot com we have lots of articles about everything from I p H to domain name servers everything in between, So check that out and we will talk to you again really soon for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you