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stuff and get ten percent off. If you want to trade in a clunker, just call the custom of our service number on their website or email. That's Hover dot com slash tech stuff. Hello, They're welcome to tech Stuff. My name is Chris Poulette and I am an editor at How Stuff Works, sitting across from me, debatedbly Is, as always a senior writer Jonathan st I had the story bit by bit from various people, and as generally happens in such cases, each time it was a different story.
So today we're going to have a goofy little debate about open systems versus closed systems. We just decided that we're going to experiment with this. We've never done one of these before, and in fact, we decided on it about thirty seconds before we started recording, and so to determine who would represent which side, we did the most scientific thing we could think of. We flipped a coin. It's the quarter United States quarter for those of you who think that matters. Uh. And it turns out that
mint did it come from? Um you know what? I put it back in my pocket, So I don't know. But but Mr Chris rigged. Mr Chris Philette will be representing the open system side and I shall be representing the closed system side. So I think that proves it wasn't rigged. Look at the kind of phone I'm using. So anyway, Uh, I think I think in order to really understand what we're talking about. First, we have to establish what we mean by an open versus a closed system.
So let me tell you what a closed system is. Closed system is quality people. That's what a closed system is. Closed system is where you create a an infrastructure, uh an ecosystem, if you will, where you control as many of the factors as you possibly can, and you don't allow outside influences to change your system. So an example of a company that takes the closed system approach is Apple. That's not to say that Apple only does the closed
off approach. If it did, then you would never be able to run any other kind of software or app on Apple products. You would only be able to run Apple created stuff. But it's an example of a system because it's more closed than it is open. And there are various reasons for doing this, but we'll get into that in the debate. But that that's kind of what
how I define a closed system. It's one where you're trying to control as much as possible, and it's all coming from or as much of it as possible is coming from a single source, and the outside stuff is shut away. Yes, And and I think as we talk about this, our listeners will realize that there are few absolutes in this discussion. Very true. Okay, so open source information wants to be free, and the ore are computing devices should too. It's the only way to be, uh,
you know, free to be you and me? Um okay yea hippy. No, an open system is is something that is not made for corporate gain. It is out there for the public to use. Anybody who wants to make a contribution to it. Can people can use it, uh if they want to. And there it's it's there as offered as a public service. Um. And is therefore the people of the people, by the people, and you closed system punks should leave us alone because this is the way it really should be and trying to make a
buck off that is wrong. Yeah. So if you think of it, uh, an open system is sort of democratic and that anyone can really contribute to it and and change it. And also we should point out before we really get into this debate, uh, that it is possible to have a a product probably that's for sale, either that's an open system or a closed system. Open and closed does not mean that one is free and one is is you charge for Yeah, I was I I did. Yeah,
that's a good point. I should have pointed out that sort of the quote unquote ideal version when when a lot of people talk about open source, right, if you're going the ultimate open source, like the utopian version of open source, when you're talking about that's cool, that's cool, Yeah, because there there really is a spectrum here. But we're gonna try and be like hardcore. So mal, let me explain why I think that closed systems are superior to
open systems. So with a closed system and with with with with everything coming from a single source. So in this case, let's say it's a company. A company is creating a product that is closed off, no other outside influence can can come into this product. It means that there's an expectation of quality control that you don't have with open systems. You actually can test everything, make sure
everything works properly on the hardware. So if we're talking about a computer, we know that the software will work on the computer because the software and hardware have been developed together from the ground up. It means that you don't have to worry about some weird incompatibility issue when you try and install a program onto this device, because again everything is coming from the same source and was made to work together. Now this can go beyond just
a computer. Let's say that you have a computer and a smartphone and a tablet and they're all part of the same closed system. It means that you can expect a fairly uniform experience across these three platforms, and maybe even be able to port your experience from one to
the other. And what I mean by that is, let's say I'm watching a movie on my smartphone and then I decide, you know what, I really want to look at this on a bigger screen, and I tap it over to my tablet, and the tablet starts playing the movie exactly where I left off, and it all works seamlessly because it's all running on the same platform that's
meant to work together. That is one of the big benefits of a closed system is that you have a uniformity in the experience and an expectation of things are just gonna work because it was all built together and meant to work together. Why are you taking away my choice? If I want to have a different video card than the one you stuck in my computer, I want to be able to remove it and stick a different one
in there, you know what. And it's and it's frustrating because any time I want to change a component on my computer or I want something a little different, UH, you know, I have to deal with all the complications that you're closed off. UH system is is taking away And the problem is that, UH, you're also restricting competition because in your closed system, there's only one way to go for a tablet, and there's one way to go for an MP three player, and there's one way to
go for a smartphone. There's one way to go for a computer. And I want I want choice. I want to be able to customize my my computing experience. I want to be able to buy something cheaper because competition is driving down the cost of these products. So I could go to your store and buy the one computer you've got, or I could go to this store over here and buy fifty different computers, and all of them are cheaper than yours, and some of them even outperform yours. Well,
So what do you say to that? Here's what I say to that. Sure, it might be cheaper, and even if you have a device, a particular individual device that performs better than one of my particular individual devices. If you are trying to have an experience that spans multiple devices, then you're going to start encountering things where the compatibility issues come into play, and you may have things like software crashes because it's not designed to work together seamlessly
like a closed system is. So you might spend less money initially when you first purchase your vast array of choice here and you've got let you know, your ultimate price tag is lower than you would if you have
bought everything from my superior closed system store. But the amount of frustration you're going to have as that experience is unsatisfactory because the various pieces are not playing together properly is far going to outweigh the miniscule additional investment you would have to make if you had purchased it
all from me in the first place. And yeah, you're one individual device might behave better or perform better than why one individual device, but collectively, the experience is much more satisfying on my end than it is on yours, because it's yours is piecemeal, and also my system is designed to just work. Your system is designed to make me have to have a computer science degree if I want to figure out how to do the same thing
on one device as I'm doing on another device. Ha superior, You say, yes, I don't think that word means what you think. Well, here, let me put it to you another way. Let's let's let's take a look at the way a closed system versus an open system attacks the
problem of malware, because they have very different approaches. Right, So, if we're talking about the perfect closed system, ideally there's no malware because nothing from outside is being introduced into the system unless there's some you know, disgruntled employee that
I bullied out of out of their sanity. We don't have to worry about malware entering into the closed system because everything is made by this one entity and it's all made to work together, so you don't have to worry about some sort of virus perpetuating itself through your system.
Now that's different from the way open systems attack malware. Well, see the open systems, you could have other people, multiple people working on solutions to things like vulnerabilities in the operating system, and people who are working on uh anti malware software for your system. So the thing is, that's a small price to pay for the ability to hack into the system and change whatever you want to change
about the system. If you want to, uh, get into the operating system and see what makes it tick and learn more about what what programs and what functions are going on in the background. For example, you could be monitoring everything I do, but if you're in your closed system, I can't get into the background to see that. Then you know you could be doing this all without my knowledge. Um So with an open system, I I'm free to install any software I want to or remove any software
I want to from my device. And I could even write my own because you know it's open, and uh, it gives me the opportunity to to hack in and play with it and make it my own instead of make it what your vision is. Because what if your closed vision, you're closed off, walled off, little garden isn't what I think of as being the best experience for me, because hey, everybody's an individual, right Well. First of all, we know what you want, even when you don't see
That's the thing is, we know what you want. You don't know what you want, but we know what you want. You think you know what you want, but until you've actually bought into our our closed system, you really haven't haven't experienced it, And we're going to go back into the quality issue. Let's talk about the quality of and we're talking about computing systems here. Let's talk about the
quality of the programs that you're running on your system. Again, with the closed system approach, those programs have been built for a very specific set of hardware, which does not change from what you know that if I buy my computer from this closed system and someone else buys their computer from the same closed system, those two computers are going to be identical in every meaningful way, So we know that the software is going to work equally well
on my system as it is on their system. Whereas if we both just go into a computer store and we each just buy a computer from various you know, manufacturers, there's no guarantee that the same kind of software is going to work just as well in my machine as it is on their machine, even if the two machines are running the same operating system, because we have difficulties
introduced by things like device drivers and hardware differences. With the closed system, you've eliminated that you don't have to worry about that so much. So that means that the quality of the experience of the software. Put aside the quality of the software itself, but the experience of using
it is going to be less frustrating. Uh the you know, you might say that there's a downside with the whole choice factor, but at the same time, you don't have to worry about it crashing all the time or just
not behaving the proper way. I think. Sure, sometimes things happen, but on a much less frequent basis than on these these little open systems out there that that just well, I don't know, they they they just they just are like every anything goes well with the potential of with with open source software, you have to potential a limitless potential of applications that could be run for it. The more open you become, the greater the possibilities. Um. You know.
So you can have your closed system and have things that run specifically on that hardware. But you know, programmers like their choices too, and they're gonna go where where the wealth of soft where it is, and that's when you attract more users, and vice versa and versa visa. And I disagree with that because users, most users don't
want to be curators. And if you are a user of an open system, you have to be a curator because there's so much that you're talking about, so much variety and so much choice, that it's overwhelming to the average user. You sit down and you see like there's it's like walking into a library and you have no idea what book you want to read. You just know you want to read a book, and you walk into an enormous library and you have no idea where to go.
It's too confusing. Whereas in a closed system, it's been curated for you. Your choices are limited, but at the same time, you don't have to worry about going through eight thousand different word processing programs in order to find one that suits your needs. There's really only one choice, and if it suits your needs, that's awesome. Jonathan, you ignorance. Ha ha oh Saturday night Life. I bet you they
cut that. Um anyhow, uh well, see, there's one thing that that you're leaving out here, the market, because what happens here is the market helps people whittle down their choices. When you have something the the word processor of choice, the one that that more people are using than people understand, it's the best seller phenomenon it's like you look at the best seller lists and you and you say, you
know what, these books are very popular. I bet you anything that if I if I read it, I'm you know, I will at least look at these first because I know lots of people like them, and that helps people make choices as far as software is concerned, and you know, there's always a new programmer coming online to develop new software and you can always help be the kingmaker for the next generation of software too. But not in the closed system where you know your choices are somewhat limited.
I don't know. I'm trying to think of a best selling open source software example, and it's really hard. Well, you know, in a lot of cases, open source software can be free or donationware, and a donationware world, people pay what they what it's worth to them. And sure some people are going to pay a quarter, and there are also people who pay a hundred dollars for the same piece of software because it means more to them and it's important to them to donate to the community.
I mean, you know, not found that out? How did how did Minecraft? Just you know, it's it's a thing. Yeah, but I still think that the closed system is the way to go. It's a sustainable business model. It means that you once you develop your your your line of devotees, you're good to go. I mean because you you've created that expectation of that quality of experience that you deliver upon consistently, and by doing that, you know that you know, as long as you maintain that level of quality, that
you will have a customer base moving forward. Whereas with this open source roach, I don't see how you're gonna be, you know, really making a sustainable business out of that. And while the ideals are wonderful and fantastic and and and and and happy and all that mess um, I just don't see it, you know, perpetuating itself after a certain amount. You know, eventually a guy's got to eat well. And and that's why I think, uh, that's why I
think openness is sort of a bell curve. Yeah, because the one end you have the clothe the the completely closed off system with fewer fewer users, which you know, we should point out again there's not really that many. I can't think of any company that would be that I could point to that say absolutely is this like even the systems that we think of as closed like Apple and Nintendo aren't really that closed. Otherwise no third party developer would ever be able to create anything for
their platforms. Right. And then at the other side, UM, I'm trying to think of somebody who is really completely open as far as open source. But that's as close as you can get. Yeah. And the thing is, as Jonathan pointed out earlier, UM, Lennox is free and it's you know, the sources open, which is in the guts of the operating system are open for people to use. And there are distributions of Linux that are completely free
for people to use, and there are others that. Uh. There is a purchase price because it is tailored two specific needs and usually has some support level of support built into that. So if you buy the software, then you can expect to have someone to call if you've got a problem. Yeah. Sometimes it's not the software itself that's that's got the price tag. It's the support. Yeah. So for example, Buntu is that way you can you can get a free version of a Buntu and install
it on your computer. By the way, the debate part of this podcast is over In case you hadn't realized that We're now getting into the more informational side. Um. Yeah, the the and I think that went really well. The but Abuntu, you you can get that for free and
install that on a machine for free. But if you want to have professional level support, then you can pay a certain amount of money and then you will have access to UM support staff, which could be anything from my computer isn't behaving properly, what is the what is the source of this problem? How do I fix it too? I'm running an actual closed network of machines in this one business, and I need to know how to set this up so that everything is secure that kind of
it's it's all levels of support. Uh. And and you know, there are definitely arguments both for and against the closed and open systems, as we were demonstrating earlier. And it's not that one system is inherently better or worse than the other. They're just different philosophies on how to provide UM goods and services. Yeah. Really there the arguments we were making. I think, um, you know, there were good arguments on both sides. I think the it works better.
There are arguments I've heard sort of like the ones the debate we just had that we're are more heated than that. You thin get the when you're actually thinking about both sides and not taking a side, it it kind of works better because really there are some benefits with with clothes, you do have things that just work, um, But with open you do have a lot more choice and the ability to tinker more with it. And it's sort of really, I think depends on what you're looking for.
So this is why so many people use Windows because it's sort of an open closed system. Windows is Windows the sort of the middle ground. Uh, it's it's it leans closed. Yeah, it lands closed, but it has a lot of flexibility for people to build applications that run on Windows. So in that that sense, it's open in the in the way that you know, again, third party developers create the vast majority of software that runs on
Windows based PCs. You know, very a small percentage of the software that runs on Windows based PCs comes from Microsoft. There there's there are very important applications that are on a typical Windows based PC that are from Microsoft. But you know, if you're like, if you're going to some video gamers house and you're looking at his rig and or her rig, I should say because you know, I've met some lead female video gamers who could wipe the floor with me in any game I've shows, which is
very they're staring at you now as a matter of fact. Yeah, well I'll probably end up seeing some of them at c E s uh, and they'll again I won't challenge them that I already know how I would turn out anyway. So you but you go on, you look at the software on that person's computer, and you're gonna see that there's a ton of stuff on there that never came out of Microsoft. Uh. And same, the same sort of
thing applies to Apple. It's not there. It's not as much software as far as just you know, sheer numbers as you would find for a Windows based PC. But you know, even Apple, which we think of as a really like a walled garden or a closed system, depends heavily on third party developers. If it didn't, the app store for the iPhone and iPad and and iPod touch would be empty. You know, there would be very few
apps that you could run because Apple only provides a few. Um. But you know, they they they lean very heavily on third parbaty developers. Not at the same time, third parbaty, developers have to go through a very rigorous UH routine in order to submit an app and have it featured in the App Store, And of course if it's not in the App Store, technically you can't load it on an Apple device unless you've gone through the process of
jail breaking it. But using it unaltered an unaltered Apple device, you can only load things that are through the the Apple's official App Store, So in that sense it's closed off because if it's not approved, then it doesn't go on the same thing with Nintendo. You know, they would certify the games that would go on their systems, and if it didn't get Nintendo certification, it didn't it didn't
get made, didn't become available on the Nintendo. So uh, that's a closed way of looking at And again that goes to that sort of quality control argument where the closed the company perpetuating this closed system could argue that this means that we only have applications of a certain quality that we know are going to run properly on
our hardware. They're not going to cause any problems with anything else running on our hardware, and they're going to deliver an experience that we you know, it reaches a certain level that we have come to expect with our our products. Um, whereas if you go with an open system, it's more like we want anyone to be able to potentially run anything on this system that's been designed for it,
and we don't want to limit that at all. We don't want to put our biases against certain kinds of applications, are certain ways of creating stuff in play. We want it to be an open playground for everybody. Yeah. Yeah, well, uh, you know, for for Windows, you can argue, you can make the hardware argument, well, I can go and build my own system from the components that I can get in my my corner electronics store, and I can make my own system and install Windows on it, and it's
gonna work. Of course, chances are that the there are drivers for the video card and there are drivers for all the devices that you're going to do it because you're running Windows on it, And you would also have to take considerations like, uh, which kind of motherboard are you using? Because only certain motherboards will support certain processors
but not other processors. So yeah, you've got limitations on on you know, It's not like even building a PC from scratch is not totally open because some components are going to limit which other components you can actually put into your machine. In other words, not everything is compatible with everything else, which is uh for for people who
are interested in dabbling with Lenox. That can be frustrating because, um, the drivers come around some some component manufacturers will write a driver for Lenox for their card or or device, but not all of them will, and so it relies on the community to put one in there. And for people who go, you know what, I really want to try one to or you know Lenox meant or you know, any of the others, and I want to try this out.
So they put it the disk in there, they reboot their machines, and they'll find out that parts of their system don't don't quite work. Yeah, and the more the more frustrating for people who are just playing around. Yeah, the more obscure the elements are inside your machine, the less likely you're gonna find support just off the top
of the bat. I mean, if it's something that's a really popular component, then you can it's a pretty safe bet that someone out there has created a driver for it for an open source operating system, just because you know law of averages. You've got a lot of people who are using the same kind of hardware, then there's a good chance someone has designed something so that that hardware will work properly with an open source operating system.
But if you've got, you know, some cheap sound card that you found that it's made by someone that hardly anyone knows about, it may not have the support there in an open source operating system. But then you know, the same thing is true with if you if you upgrade a Windows based PC and you go to the newest form of Windows, often you will find that one of the big problems is that you'll lose um support
for certain kinds of peripherals. The drivers will not update or they aren't compatible with the new operating system, and sometimes they gets patched, or sometimes the device manufacturers will release a new driver that works specifically with a new operating system. But you can get stuck that way too,
so it's not like it's only with open source. In fact, that was one of the big problems that people were reporting with mac Os ten Lion, was that you know, if you upgraded that which is a closed system, you know what you're talking about a known quantity with Apple hardware.
But if you upgraded, there were certain peripherals that they didn't have driver support anymore, and you know, or certain software that had no no longer had support, and it was software that was designed to run on the Mac operating system and yet could not run this newest version of the OS. UH. So it's not like it's a problem that's unique to open source. It can also happen
in a closed system. UM. You know, the people who create closed systems would probably argue what happens less frequently, or that you might not have to wait as long. But that's you know, kind of splitting hairs. Yeah, that's um. That's another thing too for for operating systems that are designed by the community. UM, there's you know, it may be difficult to find a particular driver or piece of software simply because somebody may not necessarily be working on it.
Depending on if there are vulnerabilities in the operating system the UH generally something like that is going to draw the attention of the community and will be fixed more quickly. Apple gets criticized from time to time when they find vulnerabilities in the operating system that could open the machine up to UH uh possible attack. UM you know, for not acting on it as quickly as Microsoft does with
its patches. UM. You know. So there's there's a trade off there, UM, but there is I think there is some benefit in a way of being that more hybrid system because um, you know, that attracts the most users. I want some flexibility, but I want most mostly I want it to work. UM. So you get that sort of combo uh system. And that's really sort of what Android is really when you get down to it. Because Android works on a multitude of different phones, whereas iOS.
Apple's iOS system works on Apple branded phones and those only UM and some of the others due to the the web os worked on the on the Palm phones, UM you know, those are those are closed systems. UM. Windows works on a on a variety of different phones. But the problem is for developers, and they find this with a variety of systems too, that um uh closed
system is an easier target for them to hit. UM. One of the complaints I've heard from Android developers is that, uh, they have difficulty writing software that will work with all the different versions of the operating system they're out there, and all all these different phones with all the different hardware components, the thing being a part of the problem being the carriers, because they're not the ones not pushing out the operating system updates for the different phones. Some
of the older updates are just lingering on. I'm not looking at you people who won't update my phone months after Jonathan's gotten his anyway, um anyhow, Yes, I'm beating the desk of my can because I'm angry with them. But yeah, I mean that's a it's a problem for developers a closed system. Hey, you know you have a specific range of components. You know what kind of processor in general is going to be in there. You have a pretty good idea what the operating system entails. You know,
it's it's an easy target to hit. But the problem with in the Mac cases, fewer people are using it, so it's less it's a less desirable target hit because there are fewer dollars to be made by writing software for it. Trade off. Getting back to the idea of the clothes versus open and operate system updates, uh so, let's let's go ahead and we'll talk about Apple versus Google, because that's that's pretty easy. And even then again, Apple is not totally a close stem and Google. Google is
certainly not totally an open system. But it's a different approach, right, Like you were saying, Uh, the iOS is only going to appear on iPhones, You're not going to find that another hardware. Um, it's because the iPhone was designed to do it. That That's the way Apple once it done, it's and that's how it's intended. So yeah, sticking with phones because that makes it it makes illustration, makes illustration.
Uh So then on the Android side, Android can theoretically be added to Like a manufacturer can choose to partner with Google and create an Android phone. It's free, it's pretty system is free. They can they can just build. All you have to do is build hardware that is capable of supporting Android, and then they are allowed to have Android as the operating system for that smartphone. So
two different approaches. Um. Now with Apple, when there's an OS update for iOS, Apple can push that out to all the different devices that can still support that iOS. But there's still going to be some that get left behind eventually, just because the physical limitations of hardware will be reached, you won't be able to go beyond this.
So if you have a first generation iPhone, it's only going to run iOS up to a certain point, and after that you're never gonna get an update again, because you've reached the capacity of what that hardware is capable of achieving without having a completely unsatisfying experience using that iPhone. Well, they could just never make a newer one, except then everyone would have what they were going to buy and
there wouldn't be any reason for them upgrade. So anyway, Uh but yeah, But but if you have a fairly recent like usually it's within for the last three generations, the latest one, the one right before that, and maybe the one before that, you typically are able to get the latest um software upgrade. You might eventually get left behind, like the three GS is probably getting pretty close to
its upper limits right now. But uh, you know, meanwhile, when you go over to the Android side, you have all these different carriers and they're all having they all have handsets with different capabilities, and uh, you know, some of those handsets might be able to run the latest version of Android and some of them might not, you know, or if they were to run the latest version of Android, the handset might get really hot and the battery might
drain really quickly, so you would have a very unhappy experience u seeing it, even if you had the lace version. You're like, well, I've got the lace version, but my phone lasts for two hours, then it's dead, and at the whole time it feels like it's gonna set my pants on fire. Um, make all the excuses you want, they still haven't pushed it out to my phone. Okay, Well for some people, like Chris setting your pants on fire, apparently it's a feature, not a bug. Um, but what
kills there? You go, Okay, well we've all learned something new about christa. Um. So yeah, the the that is that is one of the downsides. Now again, like Chris was saying, you've got a lot more choice with the open system. So if you want a phone that has a certain processor in it or has a certain kind of camera in it, you've got a lot more choice than you would if you are on the other side.
Closestem You've got you know, with the closestem you essentially have the latest version of it, and usually the one directly before it, and maybe the one before that. And uh yeah, I mean you have all the people that have adopted and and Android numbers that we've that have been coming out as of about the time that we're recording this in very very late. Um, Android numbers are taking off. I mean they're far outstripping apples iPhone new customers even as fast as the iPhone sales. And I
think there are two big reasons. But I'm sorry, go ahead, Well I was gonna say, is that, well, go ahead, Well, the two big reasons I see is one, there's way more choice. Yeah, right, so you've got like all these different options. And two there are a lot more lower cost options out there, Like with the iPhone you've got you know, you've got the latest version, which is going to be pretty expensive, and then the older version, which
is slightly less expensive. But you're not gonna find any like bargain bin types off you're not gonna come across. I don't know if anyone who's ever offered like a free iPhone with a two year contract, but there have been Android phones, the older ones. Yeah, um, actually low cost I guess maybe not free. Um. Well, that the thing is that now that that Android is becoming the big target for developers in its class. Um, you know, there are all kinds of apps that are out there
and available for it. Um. They're also all kinds of app stores that you can use to You don't have to go through just the Google Marketplace if you don't want to, although you do have to change a setting on your phone in order to be able to access them.
That that's correct. Um. The thing is, though, the bigger the target, the more people the developers of all kinds, including malware developers, It attracts that um not you know, this has nothing to do with the quality of the operating system or the security measures inherent in the operating system. It's just a bigger target and therefore it's a um, a juicier place to strike for the person and even the legit people too. I mean, hey, I can I can sell my app in this app store and reach
five thousand people. I can sell my app in this app store and reach five million people itself far more over here. The thing is, though, and also UH and I would argue that this is the case for any tech that has reached that kind of UH adoption rate, that it also inspires a lot of junk. I mean, we saw it with Attari when opened up the platform
and allowed other people to write software for it. They were all kind of that's what caused the video game crept, which is where I was getting into the whole curation argument in the debate. If you are using an open system, then you're gonna have a lot more choice with when it comes to not just you know, options, but but apps that you can run. But that also means that with the good comes a lot of bad, not that the closed systems necessarily you know, it's not that Apple
is free of bad apps. There are plenty of bad apps in the Apple App Store, So I don't mean to say that, but no, no, it because that there's not necessarily like there's no qualifier to create an app for Google, and you can submit to the Google Marketplace, or you can even host it somewhere else if you want to and not even go through the the process of submitting it to Google market and people can still find it and download it to their shorts or tablets,
you know, mobile devices. Um, but yeah, that curation becomes a problem because then if you've got that much choice and there's no like, there's no one out there who's kind of curating this for you, it all falls on your shoulders. And uh, that can just get exhausting. I mean, I mean looking through just the list of applications, uh, just you know, going page by page. You sit there and think, well, I could look at the ones that are the most popular and use that as kind of
a guide of curation. But it may very well be that the app that really meets my needs is eight pages down. And you know that gets kind of frustrating after a while. Um. Yeah, And it's it's It's funny too because one of the things that to some people have said against Lenox. I mean, I've I've used a couple of different flavors of Linux. I really like the
operating system. I Um, I don't like that there are fewer people writing software for it, but I still I love the idea, and I like the operating system an awful lot um and the more I play with it, the more I've enjoyed using it. But the thing is, some people have said that the fact that it's free is a problem because it sort of encourages people to think that it's not actually worth anything. Right, it should
have money. It gives it gives a It gives some people the feeling that, well, if it's free, it must not be very good. Because yeah, because you know, if it were good, I'd have to pay money for it, which is untrue. Which is funny because if you had to pay money for it, people will be trying to find a way around having to pay money for it. Now you're you're making my brain hurt. Here's the crazy Okay,
stereotypical computer user, stereotypical Internet savvy computer user. All right, if something doesn't cost money, then it's not worth having. If it's If something costs money, it's worth having, but you shouldn't pay for it. Yeah, like you are a messed up person. Typical computer user. You need to re examine your priorities. Yeah, yeah, well I think And by the way, I was once like you, well, I think yeah, ideally to me anyway, And I think it does come
down to personal choice. I think ideally, Um, I do prefer a hybrid. I do want I don't want to have to. I like the idea of being able to hack into things and being able to make choices and fool around with stuff, but I want it at the end, I wanted to be able to work. I don't want to spend all my time hacking with it. I was like, Okay, I'm done now. I want to close the hood and
play on it, and I can't. Kind it broke. And we both own devices that run Android, and we both own devices that run Apple operating systems, so we both own Windows computers. Yeah, so I mean, it's it's not like it's not like we're saying this as fanboys of one system versus another, even though we played that in the debate. Um, I mean I I own an Android phone. My wife has an iPhone, and we are both very
happy with our devices for very different reasons. It meets exactly what she wants in a smartphone, but for me it would probably be it's a beautiful device and it has a great interface, but it probably would be more frustrating to me than my Android phone, which meets my needs. Whereas the Android phone, I know for a fact, would annoy and irritate my wife because she used to have one and she doesn't anymore and she never will again
because she's very happy with her iPhone. So again, it's too just two different people and two different uh preferences for the operating system. It's it's not that one is inherently better or worse than the other. It's just that it suits mine you know, one suits my needs and one suits sers. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it all comes down to the stuff that matters to the individual. Um. And in the end, I think it's it's uh, most
people sort of go for the mix of things. Well, I want this part to just work, but the rest of it I want to be able to fool around with. And I think that's another one of the appeals of Windows. It's it's sort of that middle ground. Um. You know, like, like I said, we all own the various devices, and we all see the value and and the limitations of
each system. Um. I think I think it really you know, if if, however you're going about it, if you're dedicated to making the best possible product or service that you that you possibly can, whether it's as a member of the community of the open source world, or if it's you know, a closed system, I think that is what's most important to me. The whole open versus closed is just a general philosophy that guides your your development process. It's not something that you know, I should definitely be
you know, uh endorsed or or or scorned. Well, it frustrates me listening to people talk about it and seeing comments online from people who are so devoted to one side or the other that they will scream and call names and use profanity to definite side and going. But I mean, I see, I see arguments for both sides, and yeah, I think there are valid points for both ye.
And it's it is a dangerous thing because once you get once you become a fan of a certain way of doing things, then it almost feels like if someone else praises a different way of doing it, that it's somehow an Yeah, it's an attack against what you like, which isn't necessarily the case. It's yeah, no, it's definitely
not fair. But it does happen all the time. I see it all the time where someone will praise one system and someone else takes that as hey, you're saying that the system I like sucks, And no, that's not what I said. I just said that this system was also good. I didn't even mention your system. Please don't yell at me trolls. So if you want to know more about that, listen to our podcast on how trolls work East Jonathan Strickland in the operating system you like stinks? Right? Yeah, Okay, Well,
that that's a good summary. This was fun. I don't know that will necessarily do any more debates, but this was we just decided, like I said off the top of the bat, yeah, maybe we'll do another one where we'll do a very specific debate and how to pick two different things that that clearly have a divider between them. In fact, we get a third person in here. We could do the Xbox versus PlayStation versus Nintendo throwdown, which
would be a blast. We have one person just crying in the corner and say alright, so guys, if you have any suggestions for future debates or other podcast let's know, let's go on Facebook or Twitter. Are handled. There is tech stuff hs W and Chris and I will talk to you again really soon. This episode of tech Stuff is brought to you by Hover dot com. However his domain name registration and management. That's simple. Upgrade to a premium domain and trade in your old clunkers. Visit hub
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