How Bill Gates and Steve Jobs Work, Part 2

editor here at how Stuff Works. Welcome to the podcast today. I have sitting next to me as he is usually sitting in his normal chair. Uh. Senior writer Jonathan Strickland, smooth polette. Thank you very much. Thanks for pointing that out. Well, I'm anyway. We uh, this is a little surprising to be talking to you about this particular podcast because it was actually once going to be part of another podcast and we found out it was that was the length

of a normal podcast. Yeah, this was one of those times where we think, hey, we can talk about this for twenty minutes, and turns out we're right, we can talk about it for forty in fact, so we decided to um to cut short the last podcast now of course, if you listen to the last podcast, it was all about Steve Jobs, and uh, this podcast, we're gonna talk about kind of a counterpart in Steve Jobs, good old

uh William H. Gates Billy Hank. Now, UM, the reason we picked these two guys for those of you who weren't listening for the last podcast, is because you know they were. They're both the same age. Uh, they started companies when they were twenty years old and back in there are a lot of parallels between these two giants in the tech industry. They're both college dropouts, Yeah exactly, which is one of those things that you I didn't

even realize about both of them. Um, but yeah, I mean there's so many parallels between these guys, and yet they're so different. Right And uh, last time, we we got so wrapped up and talking about Steve Jobs and all his idiosyncrasies that we didn't have. So let's let's dive right in, shall we. So. Gates he grew up over in Seattle and UH and he was very interested in computers at an early age. UM. He actually went to uh to at an elementary school where he learned

about software and programming. UM. When he was thirteen years old, and that was pretty much what sealed the deal. He decided that computers were really, really cool and he wanted to know all about them and uh and work with them and uh and boy did he. Yeah. As we mentioned in the last podcast, in the early seventies, people didn't have computers on their desktops. If you weren't around

for that time period. Um, this, you know, this personal computer thing is actually really it's it's because of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and a lot of other very very important people who worked with them. But I mean, these guys were at the forefront of this, and they

people weren't interested in having a computer in their house. Well, it didn't even think it was possible, because back at that time you were mainly talking about big mainframe computers that would take up an entire floor of a building and not not something that you would be able to fit in your house, much less on a desk. Um. And it's really due to the work of people like Gates and Jobs that that changed. Now. Jobs, of course, he was really focusing on building the hardware, building an

actual computer system from from the ground up. Uh, Whereas Gates was more interested in the software part of the equation. Less interested in building physical machines. He wanted to make the stuff that would run on the machines that other people were building. Yeah. As as a matter of fact, uh, you know, Gates was really into programming, and as a Harvard freshman in ninety three, he was already working on an operating system. He also met someone who would become

very important in Microsoft's history as well. Oh yeah, who was That would be Steve Balmer. Oh yeah, he mentioned that, didn't He the guy who was always down the hall shouting developers, developers, developers. If you don't know what what Plett is referring to here, I suggest you go on YouTube. Type in Balmer that's b A L L M E R and developers, and you will be entertained for literally minutes.

The next time you hear the word developers, you will not be able to not think it's actually kind of frightening. Steve Walmer is an intense guy, yes, and and again another important person in the development of the tech industry. But we were going to focus on Gates here. I'm totally off. Sorry, I mean sorry, I mean the jokes so so Gates, he's interested in computers. He's at Harvard. Uh, he's working on developing programming languages based off of basic UM.

And Uh. Then junior year rolls around and he decides, UM, he'd rather focus on the computing aspect and less on his studies, so he drops out and uh that's when he hooks up with another giant in the tech industry and found a little company you probably heard of, fauled Microsoft. Yeah, that's all the way back to now. People when people think Microsoft, now, they they're probably mainly thinking of Windows. But this is this is decades before Windows becomes a

player at all. UM. But they were interested in operating systems. It's just the operating systems they were looking at. We're all text based operating systems. Do exactly operating system now. If if you've never used DOS UM then and and if your knowledge of operating systems mainly comes from graphic based interfaces like Windows or the Mac operating system, UM DOS required you to learn certain commands that would use to navigate through and find files and execute files. And

he said, hell it was. It was. It was kind of kind of a labyrinth that you had to go through. You had to really learn a lexicon if you will, of commands. But here's the flip side of it. It was lightning fast because you didn't have to worry about driving graphics or anything like that. The the the program, the operating system was just amazingly fast. Even if you were running an older machine, you weren't waiting around forever for

something to execute. But this is where computers got their reputation for being difficult to use UM, which, again, if you're younger, you might not remember a time when that was a deal, but uh yeah, this was This was a problem that plagued early computer manufacturers like IBM when they entered the personal computer market was well, why would I want to do that? Computers are hard to use? Well, of course you had to learn all these dos commands, uh,

and it just wasn't very into No. So that's we're jumping ahead quite a few years here, because it was several years to develop the graphics based UM interface, although other companies had taken a stab at it before Microsoft did UM. Xerox was one of them, and even Apple with the Macintosh operating system. UM had found ways of using a graphic based interface. But the thing about IBM based computers, which eventually morphed into PCs. UM. That's what

enterprises had adopted. Those were the Those were the computers that businesses picked up because they were for some they were really seen as kind of utilitarian. They weren't the sexy computers of the Macintosh world, but they were known as workhorses. Horses, so you've got all these you know, you've got a huge customer base already built into this. And so when Microsoft Windows came out, everyone thought of it as revolutionary, even though technically it had been done before.

And that's that's one thing to remember about Bill Gates is that while he was interested in programming up front, he's definitely a shrewd business person and he can recognize a market when he sees it um and Uh. Part of the reason that the funny thing is um and this is really from personal experience. Part of the reason that PCs were so popular with enterprises was because they were hard to use. They seemed like they were serious

business machines. So you know, they were for creating spreadsheets and crunching numbers, and that's what you do with a business, is you know, because they didn't have Facebook yet, right, and and Gates was very shrewd at forming partnerships with UH computer manufacturers. He was able to get the Windows operating system off on computers assu as they were coming off of the lines, so the production lines. So suddenly, now you have an operating system that's on most of

the computers that are out there. By default, most people are going to be familiar with that system over any other because that's the that's the default operating system. You know, you didn't have a whole lot of choices. It was either going to be a Macintosh or a PC that's running some sort of Microsoft operating system. That's right. Microsoft

actually got into the DOSS business first. They had their own brand of of dos MS DOSS, which I believe was was purchased primarily but um I think I think Bill Gates actually did some work on that in the coding department because this was this was still in the early days and he wasn't all into the UH administration

part of it yet. Um. But then they were also Microsoft was also in the business of writing applications for a host of different systems, like I don't know, this little thing called the Macintosh, and for a long time, the best business software for the mac was all the office suite. That's where it got its start. Um. So they you know, before it just I did to crush the living daylights out of Apple. Microsoft actually used Apple as a starting point. Uh. You know, they made a

lot of money from the from the Apple computers. They actually did stuff for the Apple too as well. Right, so, um, you know we're we're talking IBM PCs. Uh you know, the operating system plus applications for the Mac and for other Apple computers. So he, you know, Bill pretty much had a grasp on everything he needed to to get

a good foothold in the computer market. And when he started bundling things together Microsoft products together with the Windows system, it was pretty much game over at that point for a lot of different software companies because automatically you have a leg up. You don't suddenly the user when they buy the computer and bring it home, plug it in,

turn it on. There's a whole suite of programs right there that they can use, and usually there was some sort of trial version and you could purchase a full version later. Um. But it meant that you didn't have to go out shopping for these program ms. You had your word processor there, and you had your spreadsheet application there and uh and actually Microsoft caught a lot of

flak for that. There were a lot of antitrust lawsuits being thrown around UM, saying that it was not fair that Microsoft only had a strangle hold on the operating system market, but also the applications market. Well, if and if you don't believe us, there were there are things that were essentially speed bumps for Microsoft to get where it is today. And those things are called word Perfect and one two, three, Lotuses and uh, Netscape and these

these companies. Again, if you're younger and are not familiar with these companies, they were huge in their individual markets. But as soon as Microsoft came out with a competitor UM and the more integrated the operating system became, and it, you know, had leverage over the other Our people who really didn't want to go looking for other stuff and face it work creatures of convenience. Yeah, and you think

about it, the operating system. They could design the operations system to work so well with these applications and have these applications work so well with each other so well being a relative term, I mean, if you've used word and tried to import stuff from power Point or excel. You might disagree, but in general, working really well together. Uh, you can see where that would seem like a completely unfair advantage, because they can build everything so that their

programs work flawlessly. And not only that, but there were allegations every now and then that Microsoft was going to great links to build in systems that would hamper other programs so they wouldn't run as well on Windows. Um, I've I've heard conspiracy theorists say that they that Microsoft actually built the I T industry on purpose. Um, you know, right, fostering Windows certification programs by having so much buggy software. Yeah, people who bought the first part part of Wisdom might

agree with you. Yeah, okay, So moving on. So anyway, so Gates. Gates is in the lead here, and as Poulette pointed out, he was moving on into a more administrative role, although he was still the chief software architect for Microsoft for for many more years. But I'd like to point out to all those people who said that people shouldn't pick on Bill Gates because he wrote Windows. He didn't write Windows. No, he did not. He did not write Windows. He was very good at championing it.

Oh sure, he's outstanding. It at basically everything he's done, he's you know, gone from the software programmer to you know, an administrator to a marketing genius. Except for Seinfeld's good buddy, I was gonna say, taking a shower in his shoes, trying to soften him up. They run tight, Yeah they do. The punky's the doors. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's

it's obvious the the effect that he he and his company. Um. Of course, he wouldn't have been able to do this without thousands and thousands of extremely talented people, but he built that company with some pretty amazing mind. And here's an interesting point I wanted to bring up now. Of course, we talked about Jobs last week, and we're talking about

Gates now. One of the things I wanted to point out as a difference between the two is that, in a way, you could say that Jobs created a company that almost revolves around him at this point, like if Jobs were to leave the company or something were to happen to him, you would see the shares drop pretty dramatically,

most people think. Anyway. Gates, however, created a company and then, according to people within Microsoft, tried to build a company that could continue and be successful even without his direct influence. So in a way, Jobs created a cult and Gates created a company. Right, So that's kind of an interesting thing.

And here's another thing that I should point out. He had a style that was very much like Jobs style in the sense that he had extremely high uh expectations for everyone who worked for him, and he was not shy about pointing it out when you failed to meet those expectations. And there are several reports that came out of Microsoft from former workers who said that Gates doesn't tend to dole out positive reinforcement that often, but he will be very quick to point out when he thinks

you're not doing the right thing. Um. And someone else pointed out they said, if Gates argues with you, that's not a bad thing because it means that he cares. It's when Gates doesn't talk to you, it doesn't bring anything up that you need to start worrying. Right. So I'm like, well, wow, uh, scary guy. The word that

most people use is intense. Yeah. Yeah. Nonetheless, Microsoft does have a reputation of taking pretty good care of its employees, and it's a you know, got a reputation for being a very good place to work place where people have been able to do um to try new projects and things. Not maybe on the same uh in the same way that Google has, but I think Microsoft is directly responsible for a lot of the office atmospheres like Google definitely, because people were willing to take a chance on the

you know what happens if we nurture our employees. One of the things Gates discovered was that, I mean, he was thinking back to his college environment, and it was that if you have all the things that you enjoy when you're of you know, the early twenties or whatever around you at work, you're less likely to want to

go home at the end of the day. You may just stick around and do a couple more hours of coding because you know, you've got some fun stuff around the office to keep you, you know, distracted and once in a while so you don't get totally burned out. So, you know, Microsoft, on the early days, I had like pinball machines and stuff in the office, and sure enough it worked. I mean, he had coders who would work insane number of hours each week and they didn't mind

the fact that they weren't going home. Most of them didn't have really any families at this point, they were young, they were just out of college. So this is the same sort of atmosphere you see companies like Google kind of promoting today. And part of it is, yeah, you're nurturing your employees. But another part of it is, this is a good way for us to get the absolute most out of the people who worked for us with

just some simple investments. Well that's true, and I I want to say to that for the longest time, I'll admit this, you know, especially as a Mac person. Um and someone who only has used Windows computers, or at least primarily has used Windows computers at work. So a member of the cult. Yeah, um. And I was a

member of another cult before that called the Amigans. Um. But you know, I think a lot of people for a long time had this impression that that Bill Gates, especially with the company being as monolithic as it is in the industry. Um, the Bill Gates is this really tough? You know, very he stayed buttoned up kind of guy. And as it turns out, he's got a lot of other interests and a lot of u he cares for

other people too. I didn't realize until I started doing the research on this that he founded Corbus, the stock photography company and still has a hand in it. So he's a you know, a photography enthusiast. Um. And of course he's a philanthropist too, on his scale that most philanthropists never even touched yet, it's beyond even the Ted Turner level. It's, uh, it's pretty impressive. Yeah, he founded the the well there's the Bill and co founded the

Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Yes, Melinda French was an employee of Microsoft and they were married on January one and have three kids. Um, and that's that's something. You know, he's a family guy. But you know, Bill and Melinda together founded this foundation and and it's all about investing in uh ways to improve hell worldwide. So they're not focusing on just one community or anything like that. They have a genuine desire to promote health across the entire world.

I mean that's a very noble pursuit. And and the fact that he's he's pouring billions of dollars into this, I mean, it's there was a one interview where he said he gave thirty six billion dollars to the foundation. That's I can't even imagine that much money. I can't imagine one billion, let alone thirty six. Yeah. Yeah, that's actually more money than the auto manufacturers we're asking for as a group, um from the government. UM. But they

also are involved in educational pursuits as well. They have donated a lot of computers and software to schools that are underserved by computer technology. UM. And they are interested in solving actually the sort of a merger in between. They're interested in solving a lot of these problems, medical problems with technology, finding technological means to to solve some of these problems. So it's uh, pretty amazing some of the stuff he's done. And and you know, of course

he's had to scale back on his work at Microsoft. Yeah. In fact, he's he's in two thousand and six. Uh he named Ray Ozzy as the new Chief Software Architect, which was kind of the beginning of his transitioning away from Microsoft in a in a lead role. UM. Steve Balmer, who we mentioned way early in the podcast, He's developers, he's the new CEO UM and Gates is still the chairman, sure, but he has, uh, he he's he's decided to scale

down his work at Microsoft. He's probably only putting in maybe forty hour weeks now has to have like the ninety hour weeks he used to do. UM. So, yeah, it was June two thousand eight that he transitioned out of being the the head of the company at that point and to focus more upon the foundation and his other philanthropic pursuits. UM. I actually saw his final keynote address at ES last year and it was very entertaining.

They had a full video about what gates Is last day would probably be like and what his retirement would be like, and it involved him calling up lots of celebrities and giving them advice that they did not want nor need. And Jerry Seinfeld was in it. There's the big surprise. So that's the other thing is that the Gates seems to have a real sense of humor about himself,

especially now. I mean maybe if you maybe if you went back to the nineteen eighties Gates he would have been a little more focused and intense, But these days he's really willing to poke fun at himself in various ways, and which is very clear from that video and from the Jerry Seinfeld commercials where uh, it didn't seem to be promoting anything at all really because these odd commercials that didn't really go anywhere and they weren't promoting anything

at the time. Let's kind of take the sting out of uh A an issue that people had with Windows Vista, which of course was one of the the latest versions of the Windows operating system. A lot of people considered it to be inferior because early on there were several issues with Windows Vista. People were having problems with it crashing,

um it wasn't there were some security issues. It got a lot of bad press, and because of that, a lot of the enterprise systems, you know, a lot of the businesses decided to hold off on adopting Windows Vista, and they stuck around with like Windows XP or one of the other forms of Windows rather than upgrading to

the latest version. And uh so that's kind of what's interesting now is that Windows seven is already coming out and like next year, I think it's supposed to be December two thousand nine, so maybe not two thousand ten just yet, but maybe this year by the time you're listening to this, right, well, and uh but yeah, so Windows seven coming out that that quickly because Vista hasn't been out that long I mean, usually you've got a few years between between versions we have, you know, Windows

ninety five, Windows ninety eight. But apparently even even Bill Gates occasionally lets people know when he thinks his product, the products Microsoft releases are not up to snuff. He's sent emails before complaining about having problems installing certain software programs using the Windows system and saying there shouldn't be a problem doing this. Fix it. So when you're when you're former CEO and current chairman sends those emails, I

guess you you tend to listen. Yeah, that's interesting guy. And uh, you know, just another interesting thing about Bill Gates is that he's an author. Oh yes, yeah, and that kind of leads well into our sponsor. Yes, we're gonna talk about audible dot com. Yes, you can go to www dot audible podcast dot com slash stuff to sign up. Over at audible dot com. You get a free download. Uh. They have thousands and thousands of audio books.

And we've picked out too that old Gates wrote himself. Yes, one of those is Business at the Speed of Thought using a Digital Nervous System by William H. Gates. The third, yes and mine is The Road Ahead by Bill Gates. And that's Gates's take on how the Internet will affect all of our lives in various ways. Now you can get either one of those or any other audible book at audible dot com at uh for free download if you sign up at www Dot Audible podcast dot com

slash stuff. All right, then, I guess that's about all we've got for Yeah, the old the old one to swing Jobs and Gates. Okay, so you're a Matt guy. Yeah, I'm a PC guy. Yeah, so you're You're justin Long and I'm John Hodgman. Um did uh doing research for this? Is that change your opinion at all about the cult of jobs? Or I'm still a mac os guy? Yeah? But so so you like you like giving money to the least philanthropic company. Yeah, okay, well that's fair enough. I have a Max too. I like my Mac. I

enjoy Max. And yeah, so we're not really as you know, we're not really as divided as we come across. Um. But here's the thing is that you've used You've used Max most of for most of your computing post Amiga, and I've used PCs for most of my computing post Apple to E. So that's really where we're coming from. But we both recognize the value of the other systems and and truly we would not be here at this job if it weren't for jobs and gates. So thank you, guys, awesome,

thanks very much, appreciate it. So, if you, guys want to learn more about these topics, you can read all about everything you can imagine on computers right at how stuff works dot com right now, and we'll talk to you again really soon for more on this and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com? Um let us know what you think. Send an email to podcast at how stuff works dot com. Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you