Global Politics and the Web

because that's what we normally talk about. Tech stuff is all about the politics. And we're not talking PC versus MAC people. Um, although we could talk PC versus Mack people. I mean, I don't have any research on it, but I like John Hodgman frankly that that's sort of a political topic to right, we're really looking at all. Right, So the web is a global entity, Okay, so we're talking about the you know, the web is all over the world, and there are web companies that have a

presence now all over the world. You might the web is really made it a lot easier to become a multi national global organization. Uh, you know, back in the the good old days of the eighties. Um, you pretty much had to be a mega corporation to have any sort of presence outside of your country of origin. You might have a few sites in and uh, you know, another country, but um, it was only a few companies

that really had a global presence. Well, now with the Web, everyone kind of has a global presence, whether they like it or not. Right, and some of these companies don't like it. We'll get to that. But part of the uh, the flip side of the coin of having a global presence is having to deal with global politics. And uh, not every country treats the web the same way that we in the West do. No, I say we because you know I live in the United States. That's really

where my frame of reference is. The way the United States handles the Internet and the Web. Actually not even all Western nations, that's true. That's true. So so companies that have a presence in various countries, especially any anyone that is trying to generate revenue in these countries. Uh, they may find that they have to operate under a different set of parameters and they had originally intended and in some cases this comes into direct conflict with the

company's philosophy. And um, I wasn't sure about all the different things you wanted to talk about, but I think the bulk of this conversation would really center around Google and China because it's a great example of how a a multi national company can have some problems within one single country and what could lead to it deciding to no longer do business there. Now, just there's a bit of clarification, especially for those of you who are catching

up on our podcast now. A lot of you like to, you know, when you first tune in, go back and listen to earlier episodes. So as we are recording this, we're actually in the throes of conversation about what has happened over the past few days in our time UM with an attack on Google's servers. Apparently it just came out today the day we are recording this, that the attack came from a computer in Taiwan, UM and what happened was, UH, emails containing PDF attachments went out to people,

UH from many different organizations. Uh. They are apparently about thirty three different companies, including Google, where people individuals received emails with these PDF attachments. Well, the PDFs were exploiting a zero day vulnerability, which means unpatched. Basically, UH hole in the back of the UH Adobe Acrobat reader code. And what that allowed UH the attackers to do was essentially reroute traffic from the affected computers with they trojan

what they call a trojan horse. It appears as one thing in this case of PDF, but contains malware. UM and UH they were able to take UM intellectual property from in this case what we're talking about mainly Google and the Gmail servers. Now, um it it affected a

lot of people obviously, UM. But Google has been the most outspoken as of this date, UM and said, look, as a result of this, we are not going to comply with the censorship requirements that the Chinese government has put on us, which is causing a great bruhaha in countries all over the world right now. To give a little more perspective, China does have some pretty strict restrictions on what the citizens of China can and cannot access.

That may be the biggest understatement you've spoke in this year. Yeah, alright, So China likes to keep a very firm grip on what the Chinese citizens are China. When I say China, mainly, I'm talking about this shorthand for Chinese government. So the Chinese government likes to keep a tight grip on what the citizens can access, uh so much so that there is a a h the Great Firewall of China. It's

something that we all refer to outside of China. Um the Great Firewall of China is this this firewall that blocks incoming data that the Chinese government doesn't want citizens to access. This ranges from everything from pornography too, anything that criticizes the politics and policies of the Chinese government, including things like its position on tibet Um. There are things are just considered taboo within Chinese culture that stuff

is blocked. And then there's the stuff that the government just doesn't want citizens to have access to that gets blocked. To Yes, that information like Tienamen Square. That's a huge one, and so go ahead. I wanted to point out, though, just as a as a point of clarification, that the person who wrote this actually came out on Google's blog.

It was written by David Drummond, who is the senior vice president and of Corporate Development and the chief Legal officer of Google, and he pointed out, we don't know whether or not the Chinese government is actually involved with this. There's no way to tell for sure who is who

was the attacker in this case. Yeah, but if you read between the lines, it is essentially saying that we can't be certain, but we're you know, I would say that, I would say that the reasonable interpretation of reading any of the reports suggests that ultimately the Chinese government had something to do with these attacks. Put it this way, we haven't mentioned I just realized we haven't mentioned one of the things that might lead them to believe that

what the information was. Yes, the information actually the the hackers, Um, we're targeting accounts of Chinese non Chinese dissidence. Yeah, people who were advocating for human rights within China. That was it was their information, and as far as we can tell, it wasn't like their emails or their documents or anything. It was more just who they were and you know, where they were really well, and which is bad enough.

So it could honestly could have been somebody who wanted to make it appear as that the Chinese government was behind it, but also could have been the Chinese government. What motive would would anyone have to frame the Chinese government? Why would they need that information. I mean, it doesn't make sense. I think it was it. He's notorious like that. I'n't going to take a little moment here and think about pie Um. So I wanted to mention here about

the the whole Google China event. Google going into China in the first place was kind of a sticky situation. The reason being is that Google has an informal motto that says, don't be evil, all right, and they define that motto within their investor relations page as meaning a couple of different things. One of the things they mean is that they want to provide their customers with unbiased information. So when you put in a search result in Google,

you should get unbiased search results, right, you shouldn't. You shouldn't be getting uh you know, these are the ones that Google thinks are best or they have a deal with this company, and so their search results are going to come back to you, and other search results from competing companies won't come back to you. That is against Google's policy. So you should whenever you put in a

search query, you should get unbiased information and return. Their second tenant and don't be evil, is to operate within the boundaries of the law. So Google can't do something that's illegal. Even if they think that this is quote unquote right, Um, they wouldn't do it because it's against the law. Instead, they would lobby to have the law change. They would work, you know, in a in a legal manner to have the whatever it was removed so that

they could operate the way they wanted to. David Drummond has actually made that clear that as of again as of the date we're recording, is Google wants to work with the Chinese government to find a way that it can deliver search results in China without censoring the material. And yeah, right, Well that was the point, was that back when Google first got into China, those two tenants of don't be Evil were at odds with each other because they could not provide unbiased information to customers in

China and operate within the parameters the law. The two things were at odds. There was no way you could

do both at the same time. You could either do it illegally where you're providing uncensored search results, which would just mean that the Chinese would eventually filter out your site and no one would have access to it anyway, or you would have to play ball with the Chinese government and filter your search results to remove any links to things that the Chinese government deemed inappropriate for the

citizens to see. So the was no way that they could follow their own motto by going into business in China. But at the same time, they said, you know, we think that being able to provide some information is better than not being able to provide any information. So we're willing to take a chance and operate within China, see what happens, and if the situation goes for the worst, then we will reevaluate our position within China. And that's kind of what seems to have happened over this past week.

And uh, it should be pointed out too that China is not exactly a small market for Internet users. So there are at one report I saw states that there are around three d fifty million people who use the web on a regular basis in China, and that number is growing, and that's actually getting to the point where it's it's eclipsing the United States. No small market, so it's it's going to be hard for people like Microsoft

and Yahoo just to walk away and ignore them. Now, on the flip side of that coin, you could argue that Google itself is not a big player within the search engine space in China, which is true now in the United States, Google has the majority of the market share in search. I mean it's like sixty something percent. It's crazy amount of considering how many companies are out there that provide search. In China, it is I think

in third or fourth place. Uh there's a Chinese government. Uh, well, it's an organization that is friendly with the Chinese government. I'm not sure that is state sponsored, right, Okay, but there's Yeah, there's a search engine that within China cooperative, its cooperative with the government. That is then the number one space. Right, So bay Do is number one in China. Google is is trailing behind bay Do, but is catching up.

It is made up some ground. However, some people have pointed out that since Google isn't the number one, they don't have the same kind of stock in China that they would in other countries. It's easier for them to pull up stakes and leave because they're not abandoning a huge market the way they were they would be if they were in the United States. So the question is if Google were the number one search engine in China

and this had happened. Would Google still make the same move of saying, you know what, you have violated our trust. We weren't really sure about this or this situation in the first place when we came in here, we're gonna leave. Would they be able to do that if they were number one, would they be able to to to say goodbye to all that money? Part of that question is hard to answer, just because Google has to answer to

shareholders and shareholders as a whole. I don't mean to paint all shareholders with the same brush, because I know it's not the case. But there's there's kind of a general rule of thumb, which is that shareholders are willing to put up with a lot if it means that they're going to get a return on their investment. And that may even mean, say, you know what, I understand that this violates principles that you hold dear, But at

the same time, we're making lots of money. So as long as we're able to make that money, we will, you know, just kind of look the other way on the whole human its issues and censorship issues. Um, I don't know if Google would have been able to walk away and Google, let me be clear, at the time

we're recording this, Google hasn't walked away yet. Um, but they have said that they are willing to pull up stakes and leave the country if they are not able to come to some sort of agreement with the Chinese government, and the Chinese government, for its part, so far, as said, we're not in the wrong here. We have these rules. Google. You either obey these rules or you don't work within our country. So it's kind of a standoff right now. We have to see whether or not Google is going

to make good on its threat to to leave. Uh. I'm very curious to see how this affects the landscape in China if Google were to leave, and actually the global landscape really when you think about it. There was an article in the New York Times too that it's very very curious because the Chinese people are aware that something is going on with Google, but they are unaware that it revolves around any arguments surrounding free speech. Um. Well,

that's what happens when your speech is controlled, right. Uh. But there has been um an outpouring of sympathy for Google. People have been coming to the headquarters in Beijing and leaving flowers and candles and other mementos. Uh. So you know, just all kinds of people have been dropping by, which is not something that I would necessarily expect to see. Uh. For the third or fourth place, um, uh, you know search engine in China, I have the feeling that some

people may know more than they may be letting on. Well, it is known that there are plenty of people in China who are using various services to get around the firewall and are accessing information that is verboten in uh in China. Um, there are plenty of people who are using proxy servers and things like that in order to get access to more information than they otherwise would be allowed to to see. So some of that might be

coming into play. Um. Yeah, it's kind of hard to say without without being there and knowing the whole situation, Like we can't, for instance, we don't know if Google's motives are really pure. We don't know if Google has been looking for a while to get out of China and this latest incident is kind of acting as a springboard so that they can. Yeah, it's like an unforeseen exit strategy, like, oh yeah, let's take it. Take this

opportunity to get the heck out of dodge. UM, we don't know if if other companies are going to follow suit. I mean, one thing about Google leaving China is right now, it's like the best move they can make because they are not number one, They're not They're not gonna lose a huge amount of revenue by getting out of China right now, but they are going to get a huge PR boost by saying, look, we're gonna do what's right because we either want to provide uncensored search results or

we don't want to work there at all. That's like a really nice high moral ground to that you can you can cling to and UH, whether or not it's genuine, it's kind of beside the point. It's a huge PR win for Google. So it puts pressure on other American companies UH and other international companies companies like Yahoo and Microsoft that's still operate within China and are still operating under China's rules. UM saying like, well, now these companies have to ask the question do we stay in China?

UH playing but playing the playing ball with the Chinese government continuing to obey the rules of censorship and UH and and accept the fact that that's going to be awful PR back in the rest of the world. But we'll do it, you know, We'll make that sacrifice because there's all that money over there. Or are they going to say, you know what, we're gonna pull up stakes too because the heat is too high, or maybe even they genuinely feel that the business they're doing in China

is ultimately more harm than good. Uh. You know, I don't want to paint all of these these executives as being these cold hearted, calculating money grubbing kind of jerks. UM. I don't know any of them personally. Some of them may feel legitimately conflict did about doing business in China, UM, And maybe they are taking the time to really re

evaluate their positions as well. I honestly don't know. UM. I operate under assumptions and stereotypes the way everyone else does, so I think of them as cold, calculating money grubbing jerks. But I'm I hope I'm wrong. It would be great if I were wrong. I don't Here's the real problem. Ultimately, I don't know even if they were to all pull up stakes and leave, I don't know that that would put any leverage on the Chinese government whatsoever to make

any kind of changes it is. It is conceivable that their their argument that by doing work in China, they can gradually change the mind of the government to allow more free speech and allow more flexibility. And we've seen some evidence of that over the last few years. I mean that it's not like China hasn't allowed any kind of outside access, but they have been very very cautious of it. And some of that is cultural, where it's just that they want to protect the Chinese culture, and

some of it is very political. Um. And so it'll be yeah. I mean, I think if even if all the American companies that have anything to do with intellectual property pulled out of China right now, I'm not sure that China would really care that much. Yet. Um, in some ways, China would Chinese government would want to react because it's all about saving face in the global environment. So but even in that case, it's more about saving face,

it's not about necessarily doing what's right. So yeah, we know another situation, another political situation that involves technology that that revolves around protecting corporate interests was net neutrality. UM. And I was reading just just today that that Skype has weighed in there there's still no decision on official

decision on net new reality. But Skype actually filed a brief with the FCC not too long ago, actually in January fourteenth, two thousand town UM basically saying sort of coming down somewhere in the middle, saying it would net neutrality would promote investment, jobs, and innovation. It's a quote, UM.

But Skype also sees the need to protect UH network infrastructure and for UH companies UH Internet service providers to throttle bandwidth, block programs if necessary, or degrade performance UM in order to preserve the network and integrity and make

sure that they're able to provide equitable service. Of course, they're also quick to point out that their application has been optimized to you know, make as minimal and impact on the network as possible, right, because it's all peer to peer, right, so uh, you know, it's it's all

sort of relative. But that that battle has been hot and heated between the people who say I don't want I want to be able to act says everything equally UM here in the United States on my Internet service provider, I don't care, I don't want it censored, I don't want it throttled. I don't want it blocked. I don't want it. You know, you don't taper it off. I

don't wannferential treatment for one versus the other. Meanwhile, some of the Internet service providers are saying, look, you know, if we can make a deal with a content provider, um, you know, to help provide better service for our customers as a whole, we're willing to give them a little bit extra bandwidth, you know, or we're gonna throttle your slit torrent connection because you know, you are one of the point zero five percent who uses most of our

bandwidth because you download movies all the time. You maybe BitTorrent is not just used to download movies. No, it can be used to download anything but people. I was just making an example, but you're right, No bittorring could be used to download anything. Legal problem is that there are a lot of people who do use it for

illegal purposes, and so that's bad for that. And you know what, I'm sure if I looked at the full list of all people who use bit torrent, it would probably be a sizeable percentage that uses it for illegal

purposes at least occasionally, if not regularly. Um, it's a very effective method for delivering files, whether they're legal or But yeah, if you were to just automatically throttle all bit torrent activities exactly, that would faally hurt people who are using it for legitimate means to distribute very large files.

I mean, if you're using it for work purposes in your house and you needed to share files with other people in your office, Um, you know, in your your bandwidth is being throttled by somebody else who uses even more bandwidth than you, and you're being lumped in with them. You know you're gonna be a little outraged by that. So we're seeing a lot of web companies weigh in on this discussion. So this is another good, good example

of web companies in politics. I mean, Google has been extremely vocal in the whole net neutrality argument and uh then of course we've also seen I s p s and UH like cell phone carriers in particular argue the opposite side, saying things like, hey, we just want to be able to give the best service and get lots

of money in charge twice for the same content delivery system. Again, they are also trying vast they're also trying to provide value to their stockholders and stockholders are, as we have determined already the most evil people on the planet, Thank you very much. I own stock By the way, I also have plans for a death star. That's a good point. Yeah, I'm just saying no, no, no, no, I don't really mean that. I don't really mean that stockholder is necessarily evil.

Stockholder is not necessarily evil. You're just mostly evil. Um No, no, I really, I really honestly don't believe that. But there are a lot of people who hold a lot of shares who do sacrifice, uh don't make sacrifices on on principles in order to make more money. And there are people who abuse networks to right sure, and then of course there are plenty of sharehold result there who who argue for the other way. They argue that, no, we

need to do the responsible thing. And yes, it may mean that we don't earn as much in the short term, but in the long term will make much larger returns on our investments. So it makes more sense for planning out for years in advance. So unless you're planning on cocking it in the next couple of years and you're just looking for some money to blow on all the big parties you're gonna have before you kick it in two thousand and twelve. Really not a big deal, all right, then, Yeah,

you don't really have any other political specifically. We know we talked a lot about Google and China in particular, but that's the that's a big one right now. And it's a very good example of how a web company can encounter some really sticky situations once they enter into a country that has a totally different culture and political

system than the one that spawned that company. Well, actually I was I'm not to count not to get into this in depth, but um, the other big political uh battle being fought is you know, over intellectual property and copyright law. Um, and that's that's sort of what's going on. And it's not exactly the same thing, but it's sort of what's going on with the Chinese situation. Because these things are are new, they're the technologies are have only been around for a couple of decades, um, to the

point where everyone has adopted them in in in large numbers. Um. They're proposing new issues for governments to have to deal with. And you know, I think there will be massive changes in government over time. But right now they're are producing some serious, thorny issues that have never had to beat addressed before. Yeah, and we're we can guarantee that we'll

keep our eye on this situation. And uh, if you guys want to hear us have discussions on really timely issues like uh this this podcast in particular is more about the general issues of of web companies and and uh politics, and we use the China Google thing is an example. But if you want to hear us talk more about this sort of stuff and a timely fashion, I highly recommend you check out tech Stuff Live, which

we do every week. It's on Tuesday's at one pm Eastern, and you can actually access the older episodes of Tech Stuff Live. There's a youth stream channel that archives all of them. You can also see our other live programs archived versions of our live programs, not just tech stuff but stuff you should know and there will be others to follow in the future. So um, plus, we we write about these things two on our blogs dot com and UM you know we're we're able to address those

a little bit more timely fashion. Right, So if you find these kind of discussions interesting and if you want to participate in these discussions. We highly recommend you visit the blogs. There are areas to comment on the blogs, and uh, we definitely like to have that kind of involvement and that that deep conversation start because clearly, I mean, we have our own opinions, but but we know that

all of you out there have your opinions. Of you may have lived in in countries like China and have a unique perspective on the issue, and you're probably screaming right now. I want to add my voice to the conversation. The blogs are a good place to do that, and of course you can always write us. You can email us at our wonderful email and just tech stuff at how stuff works dot com. And uh, we look forward to hearing from you. But this has been an interesting discussion.

It's one of the heavier topics that we've tackled. But after talking about our favorite tech movies and Easter eggs, I felt that probably do yeah, we were do for some something that had a little more substance to it. So definitely email us, check out our blogs, and Chris

and I will taught to you again really soon. For moral this and thousands of other topics is a how stuff works dot com and be sure to check out the new Tech stuff blog now on the house stuff Works homepage, brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you