Changes at the Top

notable companies. Those notable companies being Apple and Microsoft. Of course, we're seeing changes at other companies as well, but we wanted to specifically talk about those two companies and uh two of the executives that have been playing a very large role in products at those companies and and what their departure might mean. Yeah, that that's correct. As a matter of fact, there are more than just on the surface. It appears that there are surf this m I walked

into that one. Uh yeah, yeah, there are some quite a few similarities between the two the two main people were going to talk about um today and uh in in kind of striking ways because the proximity or the the time, the closeness and time between the two departure has led a lot of UH analysts to look at the similarities and differences between them and it's and it's really kind of amazing. Yeah. The two people were speaking of specifically are Scott Forstall, formerly of Apple and Steven

Snowski formerly of Microsoft. Actually, I should say Forestall currently is still with Apple, but in an advisory capacity, not an executive capacity. But at any rate, both of these these gentlemen were high level executives with their respective companies. Both of them had had not long before the announced parture of the of each of them had been on stage revealing products, big, big products for their respective companies.

Both men had been with their respective companies for many years. Uh. In the case, well, well let's start with Scott Forestall. Then he was the one who was announced that he'd be leaving Apple earlier. I mean that was in the end of October two thousand twelve when that announcement came out. That's right, he and John Browitt both at the same

time Apple announced that the two would be leaving the company. Now, Mr Browitt is or uh you know, known for the Apple retail presence, right, and he had not been in that position for very long. Tim Cook apparently felt that it was just a bad fit. That it was, it was a bad higher and for that particular role. And so that was Browitt leaving. But whereas Brown had not been with a company for very long, Forrestall had been with the company. Actually had been. Steve Jobs is on.

Steve was his team way back in the Next Incorporated days, and his role at Apple. I don't think I actually mentioned it was senior vice president of iOS software. So we're talking about the big big stuff mobile iPhone, iPad, that kind of thing that I bod touch and is the operating system and and those mobile devices account for about seventy percent of Apple's revenue. So that's that's like, yeah, it is hard to exaggerate that that how important that is,

especially when you start looking at those sales figures. Well, Forrestall had been with Apple since Apple acquired Next Incorporated. And I guess we can do just a real quick summary of that for those who have not listened to our episodes about Steve Jobs. Um. So, Steve Jobs had left Apple after having some friction with the top level executives at that time, and went on to found a different company called Next in Core Rated, mainly trying to

develop computers for educational purposes. Uh. And then Apple once it started to really suffer financially. I mean Apple was in dire straits and not the band. Yeah, they were. They were frequently mentioned with the word beleaguered in front of their name. They suggested that they were on a sinking ship. Yes, they certainly did not have money for nothing, but they ended up acquiring They purchased the company Next Incorporated, and a lot of people said at the time that

they were really buying Steve Jobs back. They weren't buying the company so much as they were trying to get Steve Jobs back into the fold at Apple, and Steve Jobs ended up taking over as a an inter rom CEO and then eventually became this the full time CEO of Apple and on his team at Next Incorporated with Scott Forstall, who had worked for Next Incorporated straight out

of college. So Uh Forrestall joined Next Incorporate and he came over with Apple UH to Apple when Apple purchased Next Incorporated and began to work at various departments and was was known for being a passionate member of the executive team. UM. He was the youngest executive over at Apple at the time that he was asked to leave, and um, yeah, it was an interesting he was an

interesting personality over an Apple. One of the things that I read, one of the reasons I read that he had been asked to leave, uh, had more to do with personality issues than anything else. Um. Now we can say that this year two thousand twelve, when they did announce a lot of the changes to iOS as well as the new iPhone, there were some some hiccups in that, the main one being I have no idea where I am right now because my Maps app tells me that

the bridge I'm looking at is actually two miles away. Yeah. The nice um. Yeah. The the the maps application for the iOS devices has been uh, to to put it, bluntly, picked on for its inaccuracies. There there are many problems with it. Um. And Apple has um you know, and its typical fashion sort of at first pretended that that wasn't the case and then basically saying, well, we goofed it like your first it was you're traveling wrong, yeah, And then it was okay, maybe this isn't as fully

baked as we had hoped. And in fact I mean, this was This was big news when it happened. Happened Tim Cook. When it happened, Uh, yeah, someone needs some coffee. CEO Tim Cook issued an apology for the Maps app for for how it was not performing up to their standards. This was a big deal because Apple never apologizes, Um, very rarely apologizes. Yeah, it's when I say never. It is an exaggeration, but it lightly yeah only yeah, just barely.

Well anyway, One of the things I read, which may or may not be true, was from the Wall Street Journal, which suggested that Tim Cook wanted for Stall to sign the apology letter because Forrestall was the guy who was in charge of iOS, and Forstall said nothing doing ain't gonna do it. That's not how Steve Jobs do it.

That's not how I'm going to do it. And um, and that might have been one of the flags raised at the executive level with Forstall was that, you know, he he was unwilling to sign his name to an apology, and Tim Cook ended up signing his own name to

the apology and issuing it out. Now whether or not that's true is impossible for us to say, because this is all based on what various Apple employees have said to the press, but there's never been an official statement, and you wouldn't expect one to come out like you wouldn't expect Tim Cook to say, well, I wanted him to sign us and he didn't, so I fired him. That that probably would never, in any sane world ever be said. Yeah, although the New York Times did UH

did also make that argument. Yes, um yeah, And in an article on the bits blog, Nick Wingfield and Nick Bilton UH said that that had also been told to them as well. Um, and I haven't heard, for that matter, I haven't heard an Apple executive deny it formally. Um. So, so yeah, there may be there may be some fire with that smoke. Well, and and it's possible to that that it could be a combination of all of these factors. Yeah.

I don't mean to suggest that one flubbed app was enough to you to oust an executive who had been with the company for so long. In fact, there were other issues. There was one that apparently there was a philosophical debate that centers around the idea of design at Apple, and there were two sides, two main sides to this battle.

On one side, you had people like Scott Forstall, who were advocating the use of a design philosophy called skew morphism, Yes, which is basically making digital stuff look like uh, real world things. He wondered why and eyebooks the the covers of the books appear on a set of wooden shelves, or or the calendar appears to be made out of stitched leather. If you swipe a page and the page

turns like that, skew morphism. Or if you were to ever use any kind of it's not just Apple that does this, all sorts of companies, but if you were to use say digital music service, and it presented it as if they were vinyl albums kids ask your parents on turntables, well, that would be an example of skew morphism there. There there's some part of that aesthetic philosophy that says people are familiar with certain form factors and they find that reassuring or they find it satisfying when

it's involved. Um. There was an example where they showed off a uh An app where they were deleting a file and the deleting portion ended up looking like a piece of paper going through a paper shredder, and the critic I read said, how many people in that audience have never seen a paper shredder? And I'm thinking, aren't those still things? I mean, I never mind anyway, but that that's that's skew morphism. And that was that was kind of four stalls, uh philosophy. He's he liked including

that kind of stuff in design. Well, we have a trash cans or recycled bins on our desktops or or the desktop period to think of it as the top of your desk with a stack of documents on it or documents on it. Um. So yeah, I mean this is but but the skei morphism that that we're talking about sort of it it has a range and on on one hand it's sort of a you know, just an idea, and at the other end, it's actually going so far as to add the stitching or you know,

the grain of the leather or something like that. And um, some people that really rubs the wrong way. For example, Sir Jonathan I've yes, Sir Jonathan, I've is a designer at Apple, famous, famous designer obviously, and he's got a knighthood, so clearly he's got some fame going on. Um. But anyway, it's because you know, hey, if you're a night, you're

pretty famous. That's true, at least in certain circles. Look, I am just saying I haven't reached the hall of fame where I've been knighted yet, But your majesty, I'm here and I'm waiting. You know, I'm just as an aside. I've never figured out how he designs stuff with the visor on his helmet down because it little flips. You know, it's hard to see the screen. All of Apple's stuff looks like it's meant for jousters. Um no, he he. He's famous for designing a lot of the form factors

that make Apple what it is today. Like when you look at a lot of Apple's products, the reason they look the way they do is in part due to Jonathan I've. And that's that's why a lot of them look. They have a similarity to one another. Yeah, it's got got sort of a cohesion along their product line. So Jonathan I've does not so well, let me not put words into his mouth from what from Yeah, well, you know me, it's probably you know, I just pick up

dictionaries lying anywhere. Know. According to a lot of the news reports, I read I've is not a fan of this design philosophy. He prefers to leave those elements out and to not have that clutter up his design, and he doesn't necessarily think that it's relevant or that it adds anything to the experience. And so you have these fundamental differences in philosophy, and uh, something's got to give. And eventually it turned out that it was going to

be for Stall. For for stalls position that would give um he was essentially there was an announcement that was said that he was going to leave his role move into an advisory capacity, and then sometime in the year he would actually leave Apple entirely. Now um I've is taking over the human Interface team, which is part of what for Stall was seeing. So that pretty much answers

that question about that whole design philosophy argument. Yeah, well, they're our sources that have been quoted, um indirectly again because they don't want to be uh, you know, have their names attached to these things. But there are there are sources who have told different news outlets and I've because I've seen it in more than one place that uh,

I've and forced all had stopped getting along so well. Um, I get the sense that they were they were pretty compatible at one point, but that it had they had been growing apart in philosophy to the point where I've seen more than one news article that suggested that they wouldn't even attend each other's meetings anymore because they had become so distant. Um, at least in the workplace. I don't know. Yeah, and and yeah, I've I've read similar things.

And there's also been quite a few reports saying that Forrestall was a pretty demanding and sometimes abrasive person to work with, and that that also may have played a part in it. Um, So I read I read one

very exhaustive profile on for Stall. It actually was written before for Stall was leaving, and in that report it was essentially said that he was um kind of kind of the person who would say that's not how Steve would have wanted it done, and that and that some people that Apple feel like that ends up holding the company back if you just keep parroting out you know, Steve would not have done it this way, And you know, there's their arguments be made, is Apple, should Apple remain

the Steve Jobs company should strike out and to have its own identity where it was obviously evolved from what Steve Jobs wanted. There are arguments to be made on both sides. I've seen the same sort of arguments applied to the Walt Disney company, where you would have certain executives say, you can't just say Walt wouldn't have done it that way, because if you keep doing that, then nothing new happened, whereas other people say, that's you're twisting

our words. What we're saying is well, would would have focused on this sort of thing as opposed to the thing you are focused on. And so these kind of arguments happen in lots of different companies, particularly you have a very centralized, iconic kind of founder or leader and that person leaves the company, then we see this happen

over and over. Oh sure, sure, And of course, um, it's difficult to know what somebody like Walt Disney or Steve Jobs would do in a given situation, because especially the longer that goes on, because um, you know, for example, with with Disney, you don't know what he would have wanted to do with some of the technologies that are available now that weren't during his lifetime, and so there might those factors would obviously change. Of course, Um, Mr Jobs has not been gone for as long, so it's

it's a little easier to hew closer to his his visions. Um. People of course, have pointed to the iPad many as an example of something that Steve was quoted as saying he didn't want, and hey, look there it is saying that he would never ever do that, and then it happened. So um, you know, I I think it's uh trying

to hit that middle ground. I mean, that's my personal feeling on it is you know you kind of look at that and say, Okay, well maybe he wouldn't necessarily, but taking these things into an account, maybe I don't know. So Um. Yeah. As a matter of fact, I've seen um Forstall's name suggested as the quote unquote closest thing to Steve Jobs that Apple still had. Um. Actually the same has been said for Mr Sonofsky for Microsoft, which

is one of the similarities. But yeah, apparently he was. Uh. People on the outside the media have been saying, you know, this is not good. He was, you know for Stall as a leader. Uh, he has somebody that that has a lot to do with the Apple d NA and a lot of people ding dong the witch is dead right, Well, he was. He was a guy who was very passionate about arguing to adapt the mac os so that that would serve as the foundation for iOS as opposed to

creating an embedded uh OS just for mobile devices. He wanted to he wanted to have a more robust operating system that was related to the desktop system. He did not want it to go the iPod route, not iPod Touch, but the other iPods which have you know, an embedded specific operating system just for those devices that doesn't really have much of a relationship with the desktop version. Yeah,

there's there's no shared look and feel yea. So he he was one of those people who really argued for that uh and his his responsibilities will go to more than just Jonathan. I've Eddie Q will take on some of the responsibility. He's going to be heading up departments that are overseeing things like Siri and Maps, which those are two of the products that had some criticisms directed

at them. Siri when it first came out, everyone I thought, everyone I knew who played with Siri was initially very much impressed, and it became less so the more they used it until about a few months ago in twelve, like sometime around September October twelve, when siries started to seem to improve. Uh. And then of course maps had

that same sort of initial problem. UH. And then you've also got Craig fed Federighi, which I could be totally mispronouncing his name in case I do apologize, But he will be leading both the iOS and O S X side of the R S ten I know, I if they don't use Roman numerals, people call I X I, I call I x I. Um they yeah, so OS ten um. But yeah, he'll be overseeing both of those departments. Um. So that's where four stalls responsibilities are going to go to while he is what are you just doing the math?

I was just wondering. I was wondering where that came from. What I X I I hercules anyway, disneys hercules? Um. So so yeah, that wasn't That wasn't just I wish I were witty enough to have come up with that on the fly. So anyway, Yeah, there are people who have a lot of experience at Apple who will be picking up his duties. Now, the question is how smooth

the transition is it going to be. You know, it may very well be that we won't see a huge change, But it is kind of interesting that this happened shortly after Apple had had its big event unveiling things like the iPhone five and the iPad, the new the new iPad and also the iPad Mini. For all of that to happen, and then for the guy who's essentially in charge of all that stuff get kind of pushed off, that was a big story, which then brings us to

our second person we're chatting about today, Steven Snowsky. Yeah, and I wanted to make one point, but we can still use this as a transition because both this is another way in which these two guys are similar. UM. Now, of course, uh Mr Sinofsky has his UM has had the same kinds of things. He's the the Steve, the closest thing they have to Steve jobs, etcetera, etcetera. And and they had similar personalities and that there are conflicts

between different groups. But UM, one of the things the media has said again about both of these guys is that, uh they had UM, they had a devoted group of followers within their company. UM. And UH, I think that in in the case of again both of these guys, this could prove to be a problem because while there are people who are saying, holy cow, this is great. I am so glad that he's not going to be here anymore, there are a lot of people are saying, dude,

this guy, are you gotta be kidding me? He was a visionary and in both cases, In both cases I read about how the people working directly for these two men were often the ones who felt like they were working the hardest of the whole company. But some people thrive on that. So there are folks, well, we don't mean to suggest that both of these guys or either

of them were you reviled within their own companies. There were people who were very much supporters of of what they did, and there's their work style, saying, look, these guys get results. So and in fact, you know, you can if you look at the revenues for Apple and you look at how well those mobile devices did, you can't argue that. I mean, for Stall clearly had a big you know, he had a lot to do with that, and so uh, it's clear that he had a very

important role at the company. Sonofsky, same thing he was he was the president of the Windows Division at Microsoft until mid November two thousand and twelve. Now he uh, he came in before I guess, in between Vista and Windows seven, so as the president of Windows. Yes, right, so he had a lot to do with the Windows seven yes improvements. Yeah, yeah, he came in. Uh, he came in as the leader of the Windows division right

when Microsoft was really struggling. Because if you don't remember when Windows Vista came out, it initially had a lot of problems and mostly things like driver compatibility, device driver compatibility, software compatibility. Uh. There were also some just some user interface stuff that was rubbing people the wrong way. Plus uh, some of the Windows user interface stuff. The new stuff

was a real processor suck. It was using a lot of computing power and people were complaining about that, right, people saying like, well, why do I need all these bells and whistles. I just want an operating system that gives me access to the applications I actually want to run. I don't want my operating system to be taking up all the computer assets so that my processes don't run anymore.

That's very irritating. The ironic thing for me is that, you know, that the design was one of one of the things that they were trying to make it look nicer, and people were complaining about the design. It's like, who are they trying to be Apple? Yeah, yeah, we see that kind of stuff all the time. Well, Snowski came in to head the Windows division. He had actually been working for Microsoft since he started as a software design engineer.

Uh he came he had a master's degree in computer science from the University of Massachusetts and uh then he went from being a software design engineer to becoming the technical assistant for Bill Gates. You may have heard of him. Name sounds familiar. So that's ten years after he joined. He became the senior vice president of the Office division. Not the Microsoft office as in the physical place where they work, but rather the software suite office like word,

power point, that kind of stuff. I figured. He was in charge of making sure that you could watch reruns of the office the Office. So he became a head of dunder Mifflin in nineteen No. In two thousand and six he became the senior vice president of Windows and the Windows Life Group, And in two thousand nine that's when became the president of the Windows Division. Well, he helped turn around this perception problem that Microsoft had with

Windows Vista. Now we should also say Microsoft did a lot of work trying to patch and fix Windows Vista, and by the end of that cycle of patches, Windows Vista was actually not a bad operating system. But the the early word, all of those criticisms that were directed

towards Microsoft really hurt the adoption rate for Vista. Yeah, anybody who follows tech, and that's probably just about everybody listening to us right now, we all know that there's this thing about getting whatever it is, a gadget, an operating system, whatever, right after it comes out, because hey, you know it's cool, we want a new we want the newest, we want the best stuff. It's just a thing. Um And uh yeah, I mean all the people who rushed out to buy Vista, it wasn't quite baked enough.

It was kind of soft and squishy in the middle. And even Microsoft has said pretty much the same thing. They said that, you know, they the part of the problems were the fact that it was rushed through development and it was rushed into production, and that it probably could have waited a while longer before launching. But I mean, they had a lot of pressures on them at the same time. I mean, XP was really starting to show

its age. Yeah, and then the early adopters too, are the ones who a lot of the other people listened to. Oh hey, Bill, I know you buy stuff right after it comes out. How is it? It's no, it's not good, Ted, It's it's really not that great. So I know, I just did I just did that in my head. Um, but yeah, he said, you know dude, Um whoa. But yeah, I mean that word of mouth spread and UH and and damaged the relief of Vista, and they had a real problem. They they found themselves going, well, how are

we going to generate the right word of mouth? And they said, well, let's let's do this with the next release. So Sunofski, you know, he's the head of Windows at this point, and he starts to spearhead the development for Windows seven and really pushes for UH to to address all the problems that Vista had and to kind of head those off and Windows seven. Some people say that Windows seven is the upbringting system that Vista was supposed to be. Um, that's probably an oversimplification, I think so.

I think so because there were a lot of things that changed between Vista and seven. We had a lot more developments going on, even just on the Internet side of things. But uh so Windows seven comes out and it has it receives much more positive reviews on its initial release and has a far faster rate of adoption

than Invested did UM. In fact, as of the recording of this podcast, it hasn't been that long since Windows seven surpassed Windows XP out in the market share, which was a big deal because XP was something that a lot of companies were depending upon for you know, a decade, yes, and so to make that switch is a big that's a that's a big commitment now and um upon the announcement that Sinofsky made and and here's one of the differences.

While Apple itself said that that Forstall would be leaving the company, uh, Mr Sinofsky actually said, Hey, I'm leaving the company. And uh the uh you know, Steve Balmer, the CEO of Microsoft, has said very positive things about Mr Sinoff Geeson. You know, hey, he's he's the man, he knows what he's doing. This is this is he's had such a great uh series of accomplishments with the company. Were very sorry to see him go. Yeah, there's uh. But there's more going on under the surface here, folks.

For one thing, the timing of his announcement one thing, Uh sorry, did I steal that? No? No, No, that's a great that's a great way of going into this. Microsoft unveils Windows eight and the Surface, so the Surface tablet.

Both of these are big, big products for Microsoft. The Surface tablet, Microsoft might say, is not as important a in the grand scheme of things, because they've been positioning that as an example of hardware that could run Windows eighty and that other manufacturers could build tablets that could equal or or exceed the Surface. Yes, it was. It was more about a proof of concept. This is a scratching the surface. Yes, it's the company line. That's the

company line. Now. Whether or not that's oh, the genuine feeling Microsoft has behind the service tablet, I don't know. It could be that they're hoping that this will become their version of the iPad um. I can't say, because I'm not in those meetings. They won't let me in. There was that, and there was the actual unveiling of Windows eight and the launch of Windows eight, and then Sonofsky and Microsoft cut ties shortly thereafter, and that raised

a lot of questions. Again, just like Forestall leaving shortly after the iPad miny and and iPhone five announcements and all that, the timing question comes into play now. Snofsky says that during any lull in a product development cycle, you tend to stop and take measure of where you are and try and decide what you want to do next, so that it's a natural thing when a product launches and you're at that lull to really think about what

you're doing. Other people are saying, well, this kind of seems weird, because you would think that you would need to really nurture and support wind Os eight because it's such a huge change for Microsoft. I mean, the the user interface of this operating system is an enormous change

from previous versions of Windows. Yes that you know, even even if someone is absolutely loves the Windows eight interface as soon as they pick it up, it's communicating that to your potential audience and and teaching them about the user interface and explaining how it can be used across various platforms. That becomes an important role of getting that Windows version of Windows adopted wide spread. Right yep, yep, um. So, while we talked about Scott Forestall's devotion to Skew morphic design.

Um the probably the big change in Windows eight from previous versions of Windows that Zinowski is uh uh, I don't know credited with, but he's associated with the disappearance of the start menu option in Windows eight. And I've actually seen, Hey, if he's gone, does that mean we

can have the start menu button back there? There have been against I've read some reporters who have you know, their work, and I've seen that according to the reporters, it seems like Sonofsky's philosophy was if this wasn't a feature that I introduced, I don't want it in Windows all the way down to perhaps even the structure of their file management system, which is huge. That's that's a key part of an operating system is how does it manage and organize files? And so whether that's true or not,

I can't say. Again, this is stuff that I've read and and you know it's on the internet, so it must be true, right, But anyway, the that that's again like for Stall Sinofsky, a lot of the reports about him have said that he was kind of he was kind of difficult to work with at times, that he

was very demanding, that he could be abrasive. Also, one report I read in Bloomberg said that, uh, you know, Microsoft was trying to get to this point where they wanted to have a a kind of an aligned approach with their products so that you would get a similar experience going from one thing to another, so Windows Phone

to Xbox to Windows eight device or whatever. This way, he would have a lot of the same features that were supported across these platforms, and that you could you could support your experience from one platform to the next as seamlessly as possible. But that Snofsky was not as keen on working with other departments, and that he was very focused on his department, but he didn't want to

necessarily work with anyone else. And in fact, Bloomberg went so far as to say that, uh, the environment and Microsoft's executive suite resembled something out of Game of Thrones, with division heads poaching talent from one another and thwarting attempts from other groups to collaborate on products. As an aside, I hope it's considerably less bloody than Game of Thrones, I hope. So, you know, in the literal sense here,

what's the iron price for Windows eight? Um? Yeah, it's a but, but it made it sound pretty grim that the idea that these different divisions were actively trying to get talent from other departments for their own benefit and at the detriment of the other departments within Microsoft. So it's like each division is acting as a competing company with the other divisions, which is not a great message to give when you are talking about an entire company.

H Q four is coming nice, nice, Uh, it's stark contrast. I would say, Uh, I gotta work a Tyrian Lanister joke in there somewhere. It'll be a short joke, I promise. So anyway, Um, yeah, hey I did it, didn't I? So?

So yeah. Sinofski again very much an important player at Microsoft, and and it's it'll be interesting to see where Microsoft goes from this point forward, because you know, Windows eight is a baby out there in the upgrading system world, and uh, it'll be it'll be interesting to see how how the company continues to develop and uh and present

the Windows eight to the market with Sinofsky gone. And whether or not that I've seen some questions from people asking like, well, does this mean that Microsoft is going to do a one eight and move away from the Windows eight tiled interface and uh and go back to something more traditional with the next release of Windows. And personally, I think that that might not be the right message to say, wow, you know, because I think Windows eight

is truly an innovative product. I think I think, I think there are a lot of great ideas there, and I do think that there is a need to create an operating system that can work across multiple platforms because more and more of us are using mobile devices for our computing, and yet we'll still need to use desktops

and laptops on occasion. And the more we can meld those worlds together so that we could easily work on the same stuff no matter which form factor we happen to have at our access right then and there, I think, the better wealth we are. Yeah, well, there are definitely some some similarities in strategy there. The way that Windows and the Apple operating systems have been converging, you know, between the the computer world and the mobile device world.

Similarities in the operating systems um that's been increasing over the last few years. I think it's a testament to the design philosophies of both of these men. Um and and Yeah, I mean it's it's going to have an impact both on the comp any UH strategies and on the company the relations within the departments, whether or not there's going to be turf wars and things like that. Um. I think it's a little too early to tell that, but it could have very you know, very well effected

the UH corporate culture as well. Definitely, it'll be uh probably a little while before we know for sure. But and And these are big companies. This is not the first time that either company has lost a an executive that people thought was you know what was an iconic person at that company. Or Jobs and Gates right right, Because Gates and Jobs of course are no longer really

the influence on these companies. I mean there they still have influence even though they're no longer directly involved in them, because everyone says, well, these companies were founded upon the philosophies of their founders, so we want to stay true to that to a point, but not to the detriment of the success of the company, right right. Well, they proved, both of them proved so integral to the success at

the company. UM that you know it. They're legend has a lot to do with you know, the way people think, what am I gonna you know, how would this work if he were going to be telling me what to do? So yeah, so it'll be interesting to see the the next few months how they unfold for both Apple and Microsoft. I would imagine both companies will will you know, have

a couple of bumps, but they'll get back on track. Uh. It'll really be interesting to see a year from now, or in the case of Microsoft, maybe a few years from now when we see the next generation of products that would the likely still have quite a few uh fingerprints from these guys on them, because you know, they're not only phobic from ye. By the development cycles do tend to extend well, like by the time a product is released, then the succeeding product is already well in

to develop of it. So you like, when you get Windows eight, you can be sure that Microsoft has been working on Windows nine for some time. So yeah, same thing with iOS and get iOS you get the launch of iOS six. You know io S seven has been in development for a while as well. It's just the way that it works, because if they waited then it would take even longer between generations, and that tends to not be great for sales. Yeah, and of course, like I said, all of us are waiting for the next

big thing. Yeah, we've kind of, we've kind of It's a it's a feedback loop, right, because the companies come out with a new thing, we get all excited, We go out and we buy the new thing, which then pushes the companies to develop the next new things that will come out. We'll buy the next new thing, and as a cyclogue, it's integral to the company's bottom line. Yep. So yeah, we'll see what happens. Guys, if you have any suggestions for future topics for tech Stuff podcasts, you

should let us know. Send us an email all addresses tech stuffs at Discovery dot com, or send us a message via Twitter or Facebook. You can find us at those locations with the handled tech Stuff H S. W and Chris and I will talk to you again releasing. For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit how staff works dot com.